Dozens blinded seeking the Virgin mary

[Seismosaurus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1581424/Dozens-blinded-in-India-looking-for-Virgin-Mary.html

"At least 50 people have lost their sight after staring at the sun hoping to see an image of the Virgin Mary, according to reports...

Forty-eight cases of sight-loss, allegedly caused by photochemical burns on the retina, have been recorded at St Joseph's ENT and Eye hospital in the region since Friday."

What can you say to this?

[Freethinker]

Stupidity has a price. It was high in this case.

[hgc]

I'm going to stick to looking for the Virgin in grilled cheese sandwiches. That almost never hurts your eyes, and you get a meal out of it too.

[A Christian Sceptic]

The house in question has been the centre of local rumours for a few months. The hotelier, who has since moved to another house, had claimed that statues of Mother Mary in his house have been crying honey and bleeding oil and perfumes.


The statues cry honey and bleed oil - so everyone then looks at the sun? :boggled:

Why do you think they're stupid? How do you know what Caste they are in or their poverty level and condition they are living in or their educational background? I can't find that information anywhere.

From the little information I can find it sounds like a whole bunch of people who are so desperate for something other than their current circumstances they are willing to force themselves to stare at the sun long after it hurts in the hopes of seeing a miracle.

[Furi]

They were doing it wrong, to really see you need to use an optical telescope or a pair of binoculars

maybe dropping Ma Jesus Oil or Honey onto the corneas will help

[aggle-rithm]

That'll teach people to have quicker pareidolia.

"Mary Ann Furnstein has broken the world record for Virgin Mary Identification, spotting the blessed features in a Ritz cracker in only 55 milliseconds, as measured by cutting-edge miracle-detecting tools.

"She is in training to be the first person to see the VM in the sun without frying her eyeballs. Her next step is to try and see a silhouette of Anna Nicole Smith in a laser beam aimed straight at her eye."

[aggle-rithm]

They were doing it wrong, to really see you need to use an optical telescope or a pair of binoculars

maybe dropping Ma Jesus Oil or Honey onto the corneas will help

You can see Jesus on the tip of a needle if you look at it really, really close, like, right up to your retina.

[Lothian]

From the little information I can find it sounds like a whole bunch of people who are so desperate for something other than their current circumstances they are willing to force themselves to stare at the sun long after it hurts in the hopes of seeing a miracle.I agree. I think it terrible how Christians have exploited these vulnerable people by persuading them to believe in their fairy tales.

[aggle-rithm]

I agree. I think it terrible how Christians have exploited these vulnerable people by persuading them to believe in their fairy tales.

I wouldn't say they are being exploited. How do you exploit people who have nothing? I would say they are simply collateral damage.

Besides, the church didn't exactly benefit from this embarrassing episode...don't count on these unfortunates being the subjects of sermons any time soon.

ETA: Except in fundy churches, who will say they were punished by God for idolatry.

[Lothian]

I wouldn't say they are being exploited. How do you exploit people who have nothing? They took away their eyesight.

[A Christian Sceptic]

I agree. I think it terrible how Christians have exploited these vulnerable people by persuading them to believe in their fairy tales.

If you read the article you can see the church (at least according to the article) is not the one pushing this miracle. It's private individuals spreading it amongst themselves. The church is apparently working alongside the medical and government authorities and posting signs and telling people to stop. It's not even clear if the people doing it are Christians. I haven't been able to find an article written by someone in India about this.

[A Christian Sceptic]

This article has more info:
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1152984

- It happend in the Kottayam District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kottayam_district).
The religious makeup of this area (according to a 2001 Census):

Like the rest of Kerala, Hindus, Christians and Muslims form a significant part of the population. The Percentage being 48.76%, 45.83%, 5.35% respectively. (Census 2001)

- Most of the victims were girls between the ages of 12-26.
- The doctors feel most should get their vision back but will probably have long term effects.
- This area apparently is known for lots of Virgin Mary miracles and rumors.

[A Christian Sceptic]

And to top it all off.

Here is some (very convincing :rolleyes:) videos from that area posted in June 2007 showing a picture of the Virgin Mary crying blood.
http://rosa-mystica-miracle.blogspot.com/2007_06_01_archive.html

[gdnp]

Looks like another entry for what's the harm.net

[Lothian]

If you read the article you can see the church (at least according to the article) is not the one pushing this miracle. It's private individuals spreading it amongst themselves. The church is apparently working alongside the medical and government authorities and posting signs and telling people to stop. It's not even clear if the people doing it are Christians. I haven't been able to find an article written by someone in India about this.You are right, I am sure it is Hindus telling people that they will see the virgin mary if they stare at the sun.

[A Christian Sceptic]

You are right, I am sure it is Hindus telling people that they will see the virgin mary if they stare at the sun.

The way you worded your post you seem to make a distinction between Christians and the "vulnerable people". So - either you think the "vulnerable people" are not Christians or the Christians you refer to are people in power - like the Church.

I agree Christians may be telling each other and spreading amongst themselves about this rumored miracle - that's usually how rumors spread. I would surmise Hindus might be interested and / or told too. I wouldn't be surprised if a priest would be spreading this either, but all I have to go on is the few articles and they say the church is not and that they are cooperating with health officials.

So - if you have some sort of additional information please post a link. I'd like to read it.

[godless dave]

What can you say to this?

http://www.grundsteinlego.de/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/nelsonHaHa.jpg

[moon1969]

Religion gives people false hope.

[Lothian]

I agree Christians may be telling each other and spreading amongst themselves about this rumored miracle - that's usually how rumors spread. I would surmise Hindus might be interested and / or told too. I wouldn't be surprised if a priest would be spreading this either, but all I have to go on is the few articles and they say the church is not and that they are cooperating with health officials.Certainly as soon as god had allowed these people to be blinded the church was quick to put up warnings and immediately quashed rumours with the following statement (http://www.ucanews.com/2008/03/14/marian-apparitions-attract-hundreds-some-partially-lose-eyesight/) "It needs real investigation," said Father Sebastian Vengathazhayil, the diocesan public relations officer. He told UCA News the Church cannot accept rumors. "If it's real and part of God's plan, things will be revealed at the appropriate time."
The church putting that strong a statement out would certainly scare most people off.

[A Christian Sceptic]

Certainly as soon as god had allowed these people to be blinded the church was quick to put up warnings and immediately quashed rumours with the following statement (http://www.ucanews.com/2008/03/14/marian-apparitions-attract-hundreds-some-partially-lose-eyesight/)
The church putting that strong a statement out would certainly scare most people off.

Got anymore? Apparently - this event happened in February. Talk about delayed news. And Hindus are spreading the rumors and witnessing it along with the Christians.

Just wondering, Lothian, should the Church have posted warnings about not looking at the sun before the rumor even spread or started and people started looking at the sun? What other harmful things that people can do to themselves should the Church post warnings not to do before people think of doing them and do them?

[Lothian]

Got anymore? Apparently - this event happened in February. Talked about delayed news. And Hindus are spreading the rumors and witnessing it along with the Christians.I presume you found the blog (http://mothermaryatmanjalaruvi.blogspot.com/).
Just wondering, Lothian, should the Church have posted warnings about not looking at the sun before the rumor even spread or started and people started looking at the sun? What other harmful things that people can do to themselves should the Church post warnings not to fo before people think of doing them and do them?I don't know but perhaps those that communicate regularly with god could pass on a few tips on what he is planning next.

[A Christian Sceptic]

I presume you found the blog (http://mothermaryatmanjalaruvi.blogspot.com/).


Nope. Did you see the one I did find with the videos? It's posted up above.

I love the warning the person posted.

As all are extremely interested to see mary, it is observed that all visitors are looking sharply to sky. some children were harmed by their eyes because of this.....
so take care that DONT LOOK SHARP TO THE SKY NOT MORE THAN 2 MINUTES CONTINUOUSLY




I don't know but perhaps those that communicate regularly with god could pass on a few tips on what he is planning next.

What's God have to do with it?
On the blog you posted the words God and Jesus appear 0 times.
Seems like He's being left out of the picture with everyone's fixation on the Virgin Mary.

[godless dave]

Just wondering, Lothian, should the Church have posted warnings about not looking at the sun before the rumor even spread or started and people started looking at the sun? What other harmful things that people can do to themselves should the Church post warnings not to do before people think of doing them and do them?

What the church should have done is made clear that you will never see an apparition of the Virgin Mary or anyone else, anywhere, at any time. That would help avoid this sort of thing.

By teaching that some apparitions are real miracles, they laid the groundwork for this sort of silliness.

[A Christian Sceptic]

What the church should have done is made clear that you will never see an apparition of the Virgin Mary or anyone else, anywhere, at any time. That would help avoid this sort of thing.


Except they believe it can happen too. That's why they are always "cautious". In case it is true.


By teaching that some apparitions are real miracles, they laid the groundwork for this sort of silliness.

Maybe they should add an addendum to the official church teaching on apparitions (you have a link to what it actually says?) saying "Except on or near the sun and other bright, hot objects which could cause damage if looked at too long."

[aggle-rithm]

You are right, I am sure it is Hindus telling people that they will see the virgin mary if they stare at the sun.

Christian: It's the Virgin Mary!
Hindu: No, it's Ganesha! See the trunk?
Other person: I just see a dark, formless blob that's getting bigger every second.
Christian: Right, the Virgin Mary.

[A Christian Sceptic]

Christian: It's the Virgin Mary!
Hindu: No, it's Ganesha! See the trunk?
Other person: I just see a dark, formless blob that's getting bigger every second.
Christian: Right, the Virgin Mary.

Well - according to the news articles - the Hindus claim it's the Virgin Mary.

[aggle-rithm]

Well - according to the news articles - the Hindus claim it's the Virgin Mary.

And the Christians thought it was Ganesha?? Weird. ;)

Anyway, the Hindus have a whole pantheon of gods, so I guess one more doesn't give them a lot of theological dissonance.

[A Christian Sceptic]

And the Christians thought it was Ganesha?? Weird. ;)


And that it was pink.


Anyway, the Hindus have a whole pantheon of gods, so I guess one more doesn't give them a lot of theological dissonance.

Do a google search of "Mother Kali as Virgin Mary".

[FireGarden]

Google turned up this:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/050225.html

Whatever may be said about eclipse gazing, you can screw yourself up pretty good staring at the sun while whacked out or in the grip of religious experience. In one report of 300-plus cases of solar retinopathy seen at a clinic in Nepal, 10 percent involved literal sun worshippers--people who gazed at the sun daily or on special occasions. (Some Hindus engage in this practice, often forming a one-hole mask with their hands for the purpose.) Sixties survivors who recall horror stories about people incinerating their foveae while tripping may be interested to know it wasn't just talk--I found a 1976 report of "a 23-year-old man [who] sustained severe macular damage by sun gazing during a hallucinogenic drug-induced state." The hallucinogenic drug was LSD.

I remember that there were news stories of people having their sight damaged after the eclipse we had in Britain several years ago. There was an eclipse today. I wonder if everyone is more careful now.

And it's not just stupid people who do this kind of thing. Several scientists gave it a go. Including Newton:
http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/vision/others.html


It's a matter of teaching people that staring at the sun is dangerous -- regardless of the aim of staring.

[godless dave]

Except they believe it can happen too. That's why they are always "cautious". In case it is true.

Exactly my point.

[Toke]

I have heard of faith healing, but what do you call this?

[FramerDave]

I'm sure it was God's will.

[MG1962]

Google turned up this:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/050225.html



I remember that there were news stories of people having their sight damaged after the eclipse we had in Britain several years ago. There was an eclipse today. I wonder if everyone is more careful now.

And it's not just stupid people who do this kind of thing. Several scientists gave it a go. Including Newton:
http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/vision/others.html


It's a matter of teaching people that staring at the sun is dangerous -- regardless of the aim of staring.

Your point is irrelevant - The thread is about making fun of some religious people who looked at the sun. Not the thousands of people all over the world who damage their eyes the same way out of scientific curiousity.

[Madalch]

If you're going blind, you should stop looking for a virgin, and settle for a woman who's easy.

[Kopji]

Surely we discussed this already.
Maybe not.
But fear not I have a parable!

The Casino
Once upon a time there was a rich and powerful man.
He looked around and thought:
Sure, power is great, but I want even more.
So he built a Casino where people could come and make him richer.
But nobody came.

Undaunted, he invested great sums in teaching people that they needed to gamble
He bought airtime showing miracles
People winning
Lives changed with riches
Gambling was fun, it was recreational, it could make them really really rich.
And they needed to do it at his Casino.
And they came.
Some won and they were happy.
Others looked at the winners and were given hope.
Some of these lost all they had and searched for more to give.

And some, giving all, could not help the Gambling.
It became an illness they could not escape.
But this was their own fault because they did not live wisely.

So we should remember: it is not the Casino owner's fault.

[Morrigan]

Why do you think they're stupid? How do you know what Caste they are in or their poverty level and condition they are living in or their educational background? I can't find that information anywhere.

Just what kind of education, high or otherwise, does one need in order to figure out that staring at the sun for a long time can cause damage to your eyes? :newlol

[FireGarden]

Just what kind of education, high or otherwise, does one need in order to figure out that staring at the sun for a long time can cause damage to your eyes? :newlol

I think you should be more charitable.
What education did Newton have? Or Gustav Fechner?
http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/vision/Galileo.html#Fechner

Some of the filters [Fechner] used were blue and violet in color, which produced a serious eye hazard: the blockage of most of the visible light allows the pupil to expand, but the color of the filter allows most of the photochemically harmful short waves to enter the eye. Worse yet, he viewed the Sun through a hole in the shutter of a darkened room, which — like the dim light of a solar eclipse — would contribute further to the expansion of the eye pupil. Finally, he stared at the Sun “as long as the eyes could bear without excessive irritation.” You could hardly devise conditions more likely to damage the retina photochemically if you tried! Not surprisingly, Fechner seriously injured his eyes in this process. The photophobia resulting from this experience is a classic symptom of solar retinitis.

Yet, after spending three years secluded in a darkened room, he found that his vision had recovered. Such recoveries are actually fairly common, though they are somewhat unusual in cases as severe as Fechner's.

For example, the Mexican study of eclipse scotomas cited above found that all 21 victims “recovered their full visual function after four months.”

[...] In fact, Sir Isaac Newton seems to have suffered a mild scotoma at age 22 while looking at the Sun. Like Fechner, he suffered photophobia, but shut himself in a darkened room for only a few days, after which his sight returned to normal in a few months. His case was much like those reported in the Mexican study.

Fechner did all that in 1840 -- considerably after Newton. An educated risk?