Anthrax Case Solved?

[jhunter1163]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25961053

Well, this should knock those anthrax conspiracy theories on the head.

Actually, it won't, I know, but it should.

[bynmdsue]

but...but is he a joooo?
if not,we must assume he was framed by the true culprits...Jooos!

[Horatius]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25961053

Well, this should knock those anthrax conspiracy theories on the head.

Actually, it won't, I know, but it should.



Hmmm, the main suspect "commits suicide", and then there's this:


Just last month, the government exonerated another scientist at the Fort Detrick lab, Steven Hatfill, who had been identified by the FBI as a "person of interest" in the anthrax attacks. The government paid Hatfill $5.82 million to settle a lawsuit he filed against the Justice Department in which he claimed the department violated his privacy rights by speaking with reporters about the case.


Obviously, the Government paid off the real terrorist for his work, and "suicided" a patsy to cover him!

[/CTMode]


Anyways, I'll bet a buck we'll see something like that as a "real" theory within days.

[gdnp]

Nope. The main suspect commits "suicide?" More grist for the CT mill.

[Horatius]

Hmmm, the main suspect "commits suicide", and then there's this:





Obviously, the Government paid off the real terrorist for his work, and "suicided" a patsy to cover him!

[/CTMode]


Anyways, I'll bet a buck we'll see something like that as a "real" theory within days.



Somebody owes me a buck! (http://www.reason.com/blog/show/127868.html)


Color me skeptical of anyone who becomes a public* suspect only after their death, particularly in a case that has already produced a $5.82 million settlement for the last government scientist who was accused of the crime.






"Within days" subsumes "Within hours", so don't try weaselling out that way!

[Travis]

So the guy was releasing anthrax to test a vaccine? That sounds like a bad movie plot.

[dudalb]

So the guy was releasing anthrax to test a vaccine? That sounds like a bad movie plot.


To modify a great line from the classic film "All About Eve", so does a lot of the events of the last ten years.
Actually both releasing the anthrax and offing himself fit the pattern of a total loon, but try telling the CTers that.
It's just a variation of a deranged sniper killing himself when the cops started to close in.

[parky76]

How did the Mossad/Elders of Zion get this guy to OD on painkillers?

I bet he knew all the info about how the Jews did it..and they therefore killed him.

=)

[Drudgewire]

"Within days" subsumes "Within hours", so don't try weaselling out that way!


Still exponentially longer than it took for the DC Madam's suicide conspiracy theories to begin.

[Norseman]

It looks like nothing of substance has been released so far. This could very well be the press jumping the gun prematurely. Some comments of caution by Ed Lake:

http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/#comments

Look at the August 1st entries labeled A, B and C.

Ed Lake has followed the case for years. Some comments by me on Ed Lake from a different thread last year on the anthrax case:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3001986#post3001986
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3003134#post3003134

One does not have to agree on everything he writes, but he has lot of up to date information for any one interested in monitoring the case.

[manierisme]

www dot salon dot com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/

This is a must-read article (despite Greenwald's usual excessive verbosity) and if our media sucked a little less, would be huge news.

[beachnut]

www dot salon dot com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/

This is a must-read article (despite Greenwald's usual excessive verbosity) and if our media sucked a little less, would be huge news.
That is a good article. But it is old news in the big picture of truth in news, and even Glenn seems to using innuendo and some good old hearsay to make his point. Pots and kettles, feeding on each other.

New reports contain errors, you almost need a PhD in everything to see the bs. This article is more bs. News about news, errors on errors. Cool.

The article, it seems to be convoluted, interjections of false recollections, inferring links of anthrax to Iraq, to get Saddam, but Saddam clearly is invade-able with his own deeds to thank.

When I realize the FBI has not released the stuff the media has messed up, it makes me smile as I can be assured of getting credit for something I never did. good or bad in the future, due to stories like Glenn's and typical of many news stories, like he mentions, where the truth is not the goal, but the soap they can sell me is.

His new book...
My most recent book, "Great American Hypocrites",...

Is it autobiographical. Excellent stuff. Now I need a few PhDs...

[Jontg]

Look, people, we're gonna need to pull together on this. For the first time in a good while, we have a chance to nip a CT in the bud, and it's our duty as reasonable men to gather all the data necessary to establish a reasonable alternative hypothesis to "OMG DR ivns wuz a patsy!!12!@ anthax wuz insid jobb WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!1111!!!1!!" I would suggest we find out everything we can about Dr. Ivins and the other players here, and quickly--the woo marshals its forces even as we speak.

[Childlike Empress]

www dot salon dot com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/ (www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/)

This is a must-read article (despite Greenwald's usual excessive verbosity) and if our media sucked a little less, would be huge news.


Interesting. He links to a local newspaper in Frederick which published several "Letters to the Editor" (http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=78274) authored by Ivins.

He was a Christian Zionist. Last Letter:

End of 'dialogue'
Originally published August 24, 2006 Rabbi Morris Kosman is entirely correct in summarily rejecting the demands of the Frederick Imam for a "dialogue."

By blood and faith, Jews are God's chosen, and have no need for "dialogue" with any gentile. End of "dialogue."


Anthrax letters to Brokaw and Leahy:

Death to America.
Death to Israel.
Allah is great.


Can't be him. :cool:

[BeAChooser]

Re:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25961053

Perhaps the Feds could explain how Bruce Ivins knew to make a man in Florida, who just happened to work a few miles from where the 9/11 hijackers were staying, his very first case of Anthrax in this country? :confused:

And could they tell us the probability that the wife of the editor of the magazine for which the man worked would have shown an apartment to some of the hijackers? ;)

Perhaps the Feds could explain why hijacker Atta was so interested in crop dusters at a time when he already knew he'd be flying a commercial jet into a building? :D

And why did Zacarias Moussaoui, in an email dated July 31, 2001, inquire of a Minnesota school concerning a 6 month or year long cropdusting course? :rolleyes:

Perhaps the Feds could explain how Atta and at least one other hijacker managed to come into contact with something that gave them a skin condition that the physician and pharmacist who saw them in retrospect say was cutaneous anthrax and why a group of experts at the John Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies concur? :jaw-dropp

And perhaps MSNBC can explain why it mentions none of the above in their article or in any of the linked pages on their webpage? Not a word about the above. :boxedin:

Hmmmm ...

[Profanz]

It really is too bad for the FBI Hatfield didn't commit suicide when they turned up the pressure on him. This whole thing could have been solved much sooner for all of you skeptics here.

I certainly would like to know for one thing who were the "three well-placed but separate sources," followed by "four well-placed and separate sources" that ABC used to push the Iraq link.

Tell me something skeptics. Were the anthrax attacks false flag terrorism?

Who falsely claimed bentonite was found in the Anthrax and why?

Remember this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Powell-anthrax-vial.jpg

Is that Fort Detrick Anthrax he’s holding there?

[maxpower1227]

I think that salon.com article was spammed about 20 different times in the comment section on an abc.com article on this story.

[beachnut]

I better take the BS junk ideas to ATS, where they need the money on advertisement, and you earn brownie points!

Bill Sammon
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
October 29, 2001
The White House yesterday disputed reports that the anthrax sent to the Senate contained bentonite, an additive that has been used in Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's biological weapons program.
"Based on the test results we have, no bentonite has been found," White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said in an interview. "As always, there will be continuing tests."


This might no be the guy anyway.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Hmmmm ...

Just asking questions again, BAC? What precisely is the theory you are putting forward?

[Oliver]

There's fresh food for the Anthrax CT'S:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Army scientist who apparently committed suicide this week was close to being charged in connection with a series of deadly anthrax attacks in 2001, federal law enforcement officials said on Friday.


Here's the interesting part:

The law enforcement officials said the death of Ivins could lead to the end of the FBI's long-running and much-criticized criminal investigation.


Speculate! :D :p

Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/idUKN0135345720080802

[LashL]

Too slow and in the wrong sub-forum, Oliver.

See: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=119999

[BeAChooser]

Just asking questions again, BAC? What precisely is the theory you are putting forward?

I'm more interested in the answers you have to the questions I asked, Kevin. You and Feds do have answers, I presume. ;)

[Oliver]

Oops, my bad. :">

[LashL]

No worries. You should send a note to the moderators asking them to merge your thread with the previous one in the correct sub-forum.

[Oliver]

Done... Thanks for the hint, LashL :)

[WildCat]

I tried to get into Anthrax back in the day, but in the end I thought they just sucked.

[Tippit]

How convenient! An alleged suspect in the post-9/11 weaponized anthrax attack killed himself.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080802/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/anthrax_scientist

[yodaluver28]

I don't want to convict the man since I have no idea if he actually did it or not but if he did, it's not uncommon for people who've committed a serious crime and are about to be arrested to commit suicide. If arrested, he very well may have been charged with terrorism in addition to murder.

[Tippit]

Look, people, we're gonna need to pull together on this. For the first time in a good while, we have a chance to nip a CT in the bud, and it's our duty as reasonable men to gather all the data necessary to establish a reasonable alternative hypothesis to "OMG DR ivns wuz a patsy!!12!@ anthax wuz insid jobb WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!1111!!!1!!" I would suggest we find out everything we can about Dr. Ivins and the other players here, and quickly--the woo marshals its forces even as we speak.

Considering that Ivins worked for the US Army biological warfare research lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland, doesn't that constitute evidence that the anthrax attack was an inside job? Or does your definition of "inside job" depend on the alleged motive of the insider?

If there was a conspiracy involving others and Ivins was just a scapegoat, we certainly won't have a way of knowing given his suicide. So any reasonable person will conclude the anthrax attack was an inside job. It's just a question of whether the (now suicided) insider was a deranged loner, or part of a larger conspiracy.

[boloboffin]

The problem with Ivins' suicide as I see it is that he just watched his colleague Stephen Hatfield win a rather large settlement and receive his good name back for exactly the same charge. In other words, if it wasn't true, there would have been a lot of grief but the odds were good that it would turn out well for him.

But he shortcircuited that entire process. He could still be a depressed person who lost reason and thought that this time the FBI would have him, evidence or no, but I tend toward the "probably had the right guy this time" opinion.

ETA: A Christian Zionist, if that's what Ivins turns out to be, would have a very available motive to access for these attacks. That is, provoking a war that the suspect had every reason to believe America and Israel would win.

[gdnp]

Considering that Ivins worked for the US Army biological warfare research lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland, doesn't that constitute evidence that the anthrax attack was an inside job? Or does your definition of "inside job" depend on the alleged motive of the insider?

If there was a conspiracy involving others and Ivins was just a scapegoat, we certainly won't have a way of knowing given his suicide. So any reasonable person will conclude the anthrax attack was an inside job. It's just a question of whether the (now suicided) insider was a deranged loner, or part of a larger conspiracy.

There has long been the suspicion that this was an inside job: not that many people have access to antrax, and IIRC the strain matched one from a government lab. So this is not news. The questions for a long time have been who the insider was, was the insider acting alone, and what was the motivation.

[boloboffin]

Considering that Ivins worked for the US Army biological warfare research lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland, doesn't that constitute evidence that the anthrax attack was an inside job? Or does your definition of "inside job" depend on the alleged motive of the insider?

If there was a conspiracy involving others and Ivins was just a scapegoat, we certainly won't have a way of knowing given his suicide. So any reasonable person will conclude the anthrax attack was an inside job. It's just a question of whether the (now suicided) insider was a deranged loner, or part of a larger conspiracy.

If a loner inside Fort Detrick can still be considered an inside job, then 9/11 can be considered an inside job. The incredible success of the hijackers was in part due to their being "inside" the coverage of NORAD. NORAD was looking at threats coming from outside the country, not internally. The hijackers had infiltrated an area of trust.

But the folks chanting 9/11 was a inside job must mean something more than that, correct?

[gdnp]

If a loner inside Fort Detrick can still be considered an inside job, then 9/11 can be considered an inside job. The incredible success of the hijackers was in part due to their being "inside" the coverage of NORAD. NORAD was looking at threats coming from outside the country, not internally. The hijackers had infiltrated an area of trust.

But the folks chanting 9/11 was a inside job must mean something more than that, correct?

No, for 9/11 to be an inside job it would have had to have had a conspirator in the US government, FAA, or working for the airlines.

Ivins worked for the government. None of the hijackers did.

Of course, this still does not make it a government conspiracy.

[Allen773]

I tried to get into Anthrax back in the day, but in the end I thought they just sucked.
Caught in a Mosh>Your taste in music.

[Mangoose]

Last night Keith Olbermann discussed possible links with the Bush administration, at least insofar as they (and John McCain) tried to quickly link the anthrax attacks to Iraq. Not really "inside job," but troothers will certainly take that line of interpretation.

[~enigma~]

It's just a question of whether the (now suicided) insider was a deranged loner, or part of a larger conspiracy.
So he was suicided?!?! Do you have any idea what the ld50 is for Tyleno and codeinel? I suppose you actually think that someone force fed the guy about 800 milligrams instead of a more possible accidental overdose (or intentional)...

[Pardalis]

Considering that Ivins worked for the US Army biological warfare research lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland, doesn't that constitute evidence that the anthrax attack was an inside job?

No.

So any reasonable person will conclude the anthrax attack was an inside job. No.

I agree with boloboffin, for it to be an "inside job" you would need evidence of government complicity.

McVeigh worked for the US army, does that mean the Oklahoma City bombing was an inside job? Of course not.

[gdnp]

I agree with boloboffin, for it to be an "inside job" you would need evidence of government complicity.

If this is agreed then "inside job" is used differently in these threads than elsewhere.

If a store is robbed and it is determined that an employee gave the crooks the combination to the safe for a share of the profits, it is considered an "inside job" even if there was no conspiracy of the store owners.

Oklahoma City would only be considered an "inside job" if McVeigh used some special access or knowledge as a government employee as part of the plot. AFAIK he did not.

[manofthesea]

Why wasn't it ever presupposed that Hatfill may have been just "trying to test a vaccine".

One thing I'd really like to know, who fingered Hatfill?
It was stated early on that a fellow scientist pointed at Hatfill.

Ivins was diagnosed as homicidal and sociopathic. He made homicidal threats dating back to college. Yet, only now he's a suspect.

[Oxigen]

One thing I'd really like to know, who fingered Hatfill?
It was stated early on that a fellow scientist pointed at Hatfill.

A Barbara Rosenberg.

Ivins was diagnosed as homicidal and sociopathic. He made homicidal threats dating back to college. Yet, only now he's a suspect.

Amazing that he was allowed to work in an anthrax laboratory, in view of these claims!!

[SteveGrenard]

Amazing that he was allowed to work in an anthrax laboratory, in view of these claims!!

Agreed. There are a lot of places this guy should not be allowed. However.....

Evereybody, including the FBI, makes it sound like you have to be an expert in anthrax microbiology to get access to the stuff. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Anthrax is present in the environment and there are regular outbreaks on captive herds of cattle, and within the past few days, a herd of bison in Montana owned by Ted Turner. Yes that Ted Turner. You can find the white powdery spoors of anthrax attacking dead animals like elephants and other large mammals all over Africa. Anyone can scrape it up and use it as a bio-weapon. So in short any farm hand, bush walker/hunter or even Ted Turner or his vet can obtain anthrax if they wanted to. How many lunatics might that number include?


ANTHRAX, BISON - USA (MONTANA)
******************************
Date: 31 Jul 2008
Source: Bozeman Daily Chronicle
http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2008/07/31/news/20anthrax.txt


Anthrax kills 25 bison on Turner's Flying D
-------------------------------------------
An outbreak of the infectious disease anthrax has killed 25 domestic
bison on Ted Turner's Flying D Ranch near the mouth of the Gallatin
Canyon, Montana Department of Livestock officials said Wednesday [30
Jul 2008].

"Laboratory tests confirmed anthrax late this morning," state
veterinarian Dr. Marty Zaluski said. "The outbreak has been contained
to a single, fully enclosed pasture, and we are aggressively
addressing the situation with full cooperation of the landowner." The
affected area has been quarantined.

"Anthrax can pop up any place at any time, but this outbreak was in a
remote, well-contained area," Zaluski said. "We're fortunate that the
landowner recognized the disease early and took the appropriate
action."

The vet handling the case is being optimistic and refusing to vaccinate
The remainder of Turner’s lifestock. Some experts feel he is risking spread of the disease by not advising vaccination. See below.


"Vaccination for livestock in the area is always an option, but we're
not recommending it at this time," Zaluski said.

For more information, visit

http://liv.mt.gov/liv/ah/diseases/anthrax/general.asp


The following comments came from promed@promedmail.org by e-mail
They are made by by Dr. Martin Hugh-Jones (MHJ) at LSU.


[I suspect that Dr. Zaluski might be being over optimistic while
trying to calm Montanan nerves. With this number of animals dying the
local horseflies will have had ample opportunity to feed on the sick,
moribund and dead and thus load up their mouthparts with contaminated
blood and spores. The usual threshold number for local spread is 4-7
dead cows, so 25 is way over the odds. As female tabanids (flies) can easy fly 8 kms [5 miles] between blood snacks, spread to neighbouring herds of cattle is always possible and is seen not infrequently, cf the starting situations in South and North Dakota in 2005 and in
northern Saskatchewan in 2006. (Owners of) Herds within 10 miles of these affected bison should be very strongly recommended to get their stock vaccinated ASAP if not sooner. - Mod.MHJ

[PhantomWolf]

A few things.

It seems that a lot of people are surprised that they hadn't heard that this guy was a suspect, or that they think he has only become a suspect since he died. One of the things that is clear about the FBI is that they rarely name suspects in cases they are working. In this case they even refused to name Hatfill as a suspect despite the media doing so at Rosenberg's insitance. From the articles it would appear that Ivins has been on the FBI radar since the begining and that they have been closing in with him under constant survallance for over a year. Secondly, they rarely start Grand Juries without evidence and the Justice Department does not talk about Grand Juries and what they are doing. Back in the mid 90's Clinton's White House asked the Department of Justice if there was anything that they could extrodite Bin Laden form Sudan for. The DoJ replied that there was nothing they knew of despite the fact that they were running a Grand Jury to determine that very issue at the time the White House requested the information. Legally they were not allowed to even tell the President what they were doing. (in that case it resulted in the State Dept putting pressure on the Suddanese Govt and getting him kicked out of Sudan before the DoJ had their inditement and operation underway, if they could have told the WH what was happening, the State Dept wouldn't have needed to have been involved and the US would have had OBL even before the '97 Embassy Bombings.)

[Oxigen]

Very few people believe this latest suicide. I think they have gone one step too far.

Check out Glenn Greenwald - people who gave no credence to 9/11 truth are now questioning it in the wake of this latest revelation.

[BeAChooser]

So any reasonable person will conclude the anthrax attack was an inside job.

I tend toward the "probably had the right guy this time" opinion.

There has long been the suspicion that this was an inside job: not that many people have access to antrax, and IIRC the strain matched one from a government lab. So this is not news.

And the rest ...

Any of you want to answer the questions I asked in post #15?

Or are you just going to ignore them?

And by the way, gdnp, the Ames strain is actually readily available around the world.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121478249006714421.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


The Anthrax Fiasco
June 30, 2008

... snip ...

In 2006, the FBI revised its assessment of the anthrax powder. While it was of exceptional purity and quality, scientists now say it lacked signs of the special milling process necessary for weaponization. In addition, the particular Ames strain of the anthrax used in the attacks – a clue seeming to point to a domestic source – has turned out to be far more common than originally believed, appearing in laboratories world-wide, including nations of the former Soviet Union.

[gdnp]

Any of you want to answer the questions I asked in post #15?

Or are you just going to ignore them?
I'm going to ignore them. They are assertions made without evidence. I do not have time to research them.

And by the way, gdnp, the Ames strain is actually readily available around the world.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121478249006714421.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


Thanks. See, you can actually contribute to the conversation if you try.

ETA: "far more common" is slightly different than "readily available".

[Oliver]

Last night Keith Olbermann discussed possible links with the Bush administration, at least insofar as they (and John McCain) tried to quickly link the anthrax attacks to Iraq. Not really "inside job," but troothers will certainly take that line of interpretation.

....Linkies...

Countdown: Questions linger after anthrax death (http://olbermann.org/ko/video_detail.cfm?id=8297) (Aug 1, 2008)
Countdown: Smell testing the anthrax story (http://olbermann.org/ko/video_detail.cfm?id=8296) (Aug 1, 2008)

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
Any of you want to answer the questions I asked in post #15?

Or are you just going to ignore them?

I'm going to ignore them. They are assertions made without evidence. I do not have time to research them.


The evidence has been presented here at JREF many times. Were you just sleeping, gdnp? Are you only now starting to take an interest in this subject? Are you so uninformed in this matter that you didn't know the first case of anthrax showed up only a few miles from where the hijackers were staying in Florida? Did you really not hear that the doctor who treated skin conditions on Atta said in retrospect it was anthrax? Or that experts from John Hopkins concurred? And so on. Why, you must have been living in a cave for years and years. :D

http://pierrelegrand.net/2006/07/08/mohamed-atta-iraq-anthrax-connection-and-the-fbi-info-suppression.htm


Mohamed Atta-Iraq-Anthrax Connection and the FBI info Suppression

... snip ...

BOCA RATON, Fla. — The editorial director of American Media says his company knows how the man killed by anthrax was exposed to the disease. He is also making scathing comments about the Palm Beach County Health department. Steve Coz, Editorial Director at American Media in Boca Raton, says that the company knows how the anthrax bacterium got into their building, and he says there is a connection to the terrorists.

... snip ...

The FBI has asked American Media not to go into detail about the letter, and they currently deny any connection between the letter and the terrorists involved in the Sept. 11 attacks.

Coz says he believes there is a connection, particularly to Mohamed Atta, the hijacker believed to be the leader of the terrorists who resided in South Florida. “We know Mohamed Atta was within three miles of the [American Media] building, we know he was within a mile of Bob Stevens house. We know that the FBI is now going to local pharmacies to see if he did in fact get Cipro. We know that he showed up at a pharmacy with red hands. There are people in this area who have very direct recollection of seeing him. He worked out in a gym where some of our employees were.”


http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/8/16/112941.shtml


Anthrax: FBI Ignoring the Obvious
Philip V. Brennan
Thursday, Aug. 16, 2007

The anthrax attacks are one of those enduring mysteries that fade but never go away. Only in this case, there are plenty of leads that have been carefully ignored.

... snip ...

In August 2002, as part of a five-part series on the anthrax case, I wrote "FBI Rejects Link Between Anthrax, 9/11 Terrorists." I focused on the failure of the FBI to accept the convincing evidence that the attacks were linked to the 9/11 hijackers.

Here are some excerpts:

One of the most intriguing aspects of the FBI's anthrax investigation is the bureau's apparent disinterest at the presence of al-Qaida's Sept. 11 terrorists in the immediate vicinity of American Media Inc. (AMI) headquarters.

The bureau seems to reject out of hand the idea that these terrorists may well have been the source of the attack on AMI that killed one employee, almost killed another and sickened a third.

... snip ...

At least 15 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers had Florida connections. Of the 19, three were in the country on expired visas, including Satam Al Suqami, who had a Florida driver's license listing a Boynton Beach address. Boynton Beach is a few miles north of Boca Raton and AMI.

In the summer, five suspected hijackers on the two planes that crashed into the World Trade Center – Mohamed Atta, Marwan Al-Shehhi, Wail M. Alshehri, Waleed M. Alshehri and Satam Al Suqami – bought one-month memberships at World's gyms. Atta and Al-Shehhi paid to work out at the Delray Beach gym, the others in Boynton Beach. Delray Beach adjoins Boca Raton.

... snip ...

Three of the hijackers, Saeed Alghamdi, Ahmed Alnami and Hamza al Ghamdi, lived for several months in the Delray Racquet Club, a condominium complex a couple of miles from AMI's headquarters.

... snip ...

Several of the hijackers rented an apartment from a real estate agent who is the wife of the Sun's editor, Mike Irish. Four of the hijackers who attacked America on Sept. 11 tried to get government loans to finance their plots, including ringleader Mohamed Atta, who sought $650,000 to modify a crop duster, Johnelle Bryant, a U.S. Department of Agriculture loan officer, told ABC News.

... snip ...

According to Bryant, employed at the government agency for 16 years, Atta arrived in her office sometime between the end of April and the middle of May 2000, inquiring about a loan to finance an aircraft.

... snip ...

"He wanted to finance a twin-engine six-passenger aircraft … and remove the seats," said Bryant. "He said he was an engineer, and he wanted to build a chemical tank that would fit inside the aircraft and take up every available square inch of the aircraft except for where the pilot would be sitting."

This last takes on significance in view of a U.N. inspection report that Iraq's most effective bioweapons platform was a helicopter-borne aerosol generator that worked like an insecticide disseminator (perhaps this was intended for domestic use or against Iranian troops close to the Iraqi border). The disseminator was successfully field tested.

... snip ...

There is, for example, the extraordinary account by a Florida doctor revealed by the New York Times, which reported that the physician believes a man he treated in June had skin anthrax. That man was one of the Sept. 11 hijackers, suggesting a link between Osama bin Laden's terrorist group and the mailings.

According to the Times, two men identified themselves as pilots when they came to the emergency room of Holy Cross Hospital in Fort Lauderdale in June 2001. One, Dr. Christos Tsonas recalled, had an ugly, dark lesion on his leg that he claimed he got from bumping into a suitcase two months earlier. The doctor said at the time he thought the injury was curious, but he cleaned it and prescribed an antibiotic for infection.

In the wake of 9/11, however, when federal investigators found the medicine among the possessions of one of the hijackers, Ahmed Alhaznawi, Dr. Tsonas reviewed the case and arrived at a new diagnosis. The lesion, he told the Times, "was consistent with cutaneous [skin] anthrax."

In a memo prepared by experts at the Johns Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies, and circulated among top government officials the group, which interviewed Dr. Tsonas, concluded that the anthrax diagnosis "raises the possibility that the hijackers were handling anthrax and were the perpetrators of the anthrax letter attacks."

... snip ...

The FBI discounts these facts, insisting that they have eliminated any connection between the the hijackers and the anthrax letter attacks but fail to explain why they have.


http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/anthraxhijackerslink.html


Source: New York Times, March 23, 2002, Report Linking Anthrax and Hijackers Is Investigated, By WILLIAM J. BROAD and DAVID JOHNSTON, The two men identified themselves as pilots when they came to the emergency room of Holy Cross Hospital in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., last June. One had an ugly, dark lesion on his leg that he said he developed after bumping into a suitcase two months earlier. Dr. Christos Tsonas thought the injury was curious, but he cleaned it, prescribed an antibiotic for infection and sent the men away with hardly another thought. But after Sept. 11, when federal investigators found the medicine among the possessions of one of the hijackers, Ahmed Alhaznawi, Dr. Tsonas reviewed the case and arrived at a new diagnosis. The lesion, he said in an interview this week, "was consistent with cutaneous anthrax.[b/] ... snip ... [b]a recent memorandum, prepared by experts at the Johns Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies, and circulated among top government officials, has renewed a debate about the evidence. The group, which interviewed Dr. Tsonas, concluded that the diagnosis of cutaneous anthrax, which causes skin lesions, was "the most probable and coherent interpretation of the data available." The memorandum added, "Such a conclusion of course raises the possibility that the hijackers were handling anthrax and were the perpetrators of the anthrax letter attacks."


Here's a link, no longer working and I don't want to take the time to figure out why or where the article might now be found, which quoted a Washington Post article:

http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/wp0328.html


Memo on Florida Case Roils Anthrax Probe

Experts Debate Theory Hijacker Was Exposed

By Steve Fainaru and Ceci Connolly

Washington Post Staff Writers

Friday, March 29, 2002; Page A03

In January, outside of formal channels, an FBI official asked biodefense experts at Johns Hopkins University to examine a curious lead in the federal government's investigation into last fall's anthrax attacks.

The experts were to evaluate the diagnosis of a Fort Lauderdale, Fla., emergency room physician who had treated one of the Sept. 11 hijackers last June. The physician, Christos Tsonas, initially thought the man had a minor infection, but after the wave of bioterrorist attacks he told the FBI that, in retrospect, he now believed the black lesion on the suspected hijacker's lower left leg was consistent with the skin form of anthrax.

The FBI official told the Hopkins experts, Tara O'Toole and Thomas V. Inglesby, he was concerned the FBI had not pursued the Florida case aggressively enough. The two-page memo they prepared is now circulating among senior government officials, and its findings have stirred up debate over their accuracy and the focus of the FBI's investigation, now in its sixth month.

O'Toole and Inglesby, who head the Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies, concluded that Tsonas's diagnosis of cutaneous anthrax was "the most probable and coherent interpretation of the data available." Since the contents of the memo became public last week, that conclusion has been endorsed by D.A. Henderson, the top bioterrorism official at the Department of Health and Human Services, and Richard Spertzel, who presided over the inspection of Iraq's bioweapons program as part of a United Nations team.


:D

[Oliver]

Breaking conspiracy fodder at CNN right now...

Therapist: Researcher had 'homicidal plan' (http://us.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/02/anthrax.suspect/index.html)

An anthrax researcher who committed suicide this week had threatened his therapist and recently outlined a plan to kill his co-workers, according to court testimony. Therapist Jean C. Duley also testified last month that Bruce E. Ivins "was going to go out in a blaze of glory." full story (http://us.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/02/anthrax.suspect/index.html)


Time: Anthrax mystery deepens (http://us.cnn.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1828960,00.html)
Two sides of scientist emerge after suicide (http://us.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/01/anthrax.suspect/index.html)
Timeline: Anthrax attacks (http://us.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/01/anthrax.suspect/index.html#cnnSTCOther2)

[Oliver]

Oh wait, I forgot something while reading at CNN...
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/prairie/4751/xfiles.mid

[gdnp]

The evidence has been presented here at JREF many times. Were you just sleeping, gdnp?
Note my "join date".

http://pierrelegrand.net/2006/07/08/mohamed-atta-iraq-anthrax-connection-and-the-fbi-info-suppression.htm

Well, if the editor of the National Enquirer says it's true, that's good enough for me. I'm going to bed. :slp:

[SteveGrenard]

Beyond the Breach ... here is an interesting (lengthy) article/wrap up on the anthrax related containment breaches at Ft Detrick/USAMRID from a local newspaper:


What went wrong
By Alison Walker
News-Post Staff
awalker@fredericknewspost.com


FREDERICK — During a two-week period in April four years ago, officials at the Army’s lead biodefense laboratory at Fort Detrick discovered anthrax spores had escaped carefully guarded suites into the building’s unprotected areas.

The breach called into question the ability of the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases to keep its deadly agents within laboratory walls seven months after the terrorism attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and the anthrax mailings that autumn.

The 2002 incident was considered a containment breach because anthrax was found outside a containment suite, which is a group of laboratories and administrative rooms. USAMRIID uses strict security and sterilization methods to prevent the deadly agents stored inside from escaping.

Through a Freedom Of Information Act request, The Frederick News-Post obtained a 361-page report on the 2002 breach compiled by the U.S. Army Medical Research and Materiel Command, which oversees USAMRIID.



with much more at:

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/special_sections/detrick/day1.htm

So as I see this discussion so far there are three theories afloat as to who mailed the anthrax. One is that a scientist did it, first Hatfil and now the late, mentally disturbed Dr. Ivins. Two is that the 9-11 hijackers engineered it, from beyond their own fiery graves and three virtually anybody with access to the germ such as cowboys and farm hands including non-scientists which pretty much includes the whole wide world of nut cases.

Regarding Ivins’ suicide, I noticed someone asked about Tylenol#3 LD50.


The LD50 (lethal dose for %50) is 800mg in the average person. Death from codeine, unlike most opiates, includes restlessness, seizures and eventually death from respiratory arrest.
Some sources indicate that the lower-end LD50 may be around 500mg, so doses above 450mg are in the red zone.

Source - For more information on codeine, check out:
http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/Codeine_FAQ.11309.shtml

Each Tylenol #3, a prescription drug, contains 300 mgs of acetaminophen and 30 mgs of codeine.
Ivins would have had to swallow at least 15 tablets (these are large tablets by the way) or perhaps
as many as 25 or 28. Not impossible but could be uncomfortable until some of the codeine started to kick in. That many Tylenol#3s also risks serious liver compromise, toxicity and failure.

The LD50% in humans is an extrapolated/calculated number based on rat studies and is the number
of milligrams of codeine that kills 50% of a test series of animals which in this case are rats, not
people. The above URL goes into the LD50% of rats tested.

[boloboffin]

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-anthrax2-2008aug02,0,4558967.story

A financial motive for Ivins -- he had patents on two anthrax vaccines.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ivins3-2008aug03,0,3863335.story

His therapist got a restraining order against him on July 24, five days before his suicide. She says he told a group therapy session he was planning to kill his coworkers after learning of his impending indictment.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ivins3-2008aug03,0,3863335.story

I heard on KCRA that there is evidence linking Ivins to the anthrax. DNA analysis ties the anthrax to a particular storage item that they believe only Ivins had access to. The envelopes used in the mailings were evidently purchased at a postal center blocks from Fort Detrick and also Ivins' home. The therapist also said on KCRA that Ivins admitted to trying to kill people, possibly by poisoning, in 2001. (the attempt, not the admission).

I'm with some others here that are like WTF was this guy around anthrax for at all, and why wasn't he suspect no. 1 from the beginning?

[HereticHulk]

I don't want to convict the man since I have no idea if he actually did it or not but if he did, it's not uncommon for people who've committed a serious crime and are about to be arrested to commit suicide. If arrested, he very well may have been charged with terrorism in addition to murder.

Seems odd to me that a man of his intelligence would commit suicide by Tylenol.

A slow, painful and miserable death. Kidneys, Liver shut down and are destroyed. Toxins and waste build up in your body. Don't think so!?

[BeAChooser]

Two is that the 9-11 hijackers engineered it, from beyond their own fiery graves

First of all, why do you assume that the men who hijacked the planes were the only ones in America at the time or the only al-Qaeda in the plot? Isn't it likely that there were others supporting the plot? That's what the government seemed to think since they had a nation wide manhunt afterwords and did in fact find some evidence that there were helpers.

Second, why do you assume that the anthrax letter that killed the first person in Florida ... the one that worked a few miles from where the hijackers were staying ... was mailed after 9/11?

When did Stevens contract the anthrax? Some seem to think it happened on September 19th from a letter (the Lopez letter) sent to AMI. But when was the letter mailed and received? MSNBC quoted Newsweek (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3067576/site/newsweek/) saying that the Lopez letter arrived a week before 9/11.

This site, http://www.postalmag.com/editorial14.htm, dedicated to postal employees, also says that the Lopez letter arrived the 4th. Here's another site that says the 4th: http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/anthraxreport.htm.

Newsweek said they spoke to someone (unnamed) at AMI. And I've yet to find a source claiming the letter arrived on the 19th. Perhaps this might resolve the question: http://anthrax2001.blogspot.com/ "The media reports on the AMI letters confirm what the CDC reports in many important details The media reported that Bob Stevens was indeed seen by his colleagues holding a letter close to his face on September 19, 2001. It was pointed out by Phil Brennan writing for Newsmax that this letter that Stevens was seen reading had actually arrived at AMI on September 4, 2001." Phil Brennan said Stevens held it up to his face and then put it down on the keyboard (where traces of anthrax were found). So maybe Steven's contracted the anthrax on September 19th, however the letter arrived at AMI before 9/11. And if it arrived before 9/11 to coincidentally infect someone working within a few miles of where the hijackers stayed, that sort of rules out a domestic terrorist, doesn't it?

Or maybe the source wasn't that letter. We really don't know. But we do know Stevens started showing symptoms some time before October 2nd, when he was hospitalized. This somewhat authoritative report (http://www.fpd.umn.edu/files/GlobalChron.pdf link no longer working (and I don't care to figure out why at this time) said the onset of symptoms was around September 28th. Inhalation anthrax has an uncertain incubation time (from less than a week or two to as much as 2 months). The median time is reported to be 10 days according to one study. The CDC says its generally less than 2 weeks but "due to spore dormancy and slow clearance from the lungs, the incubation period for inhalational anthrax may be prolonged." And according to CNN, Florida Health Secretary Dr. John Agwunobi advised anyone who spent more than an hour in the AMI building since August 1st to report for testing. Just to give you an idea of how uncertain officials might really be about the timeline.

The bottom line is we don't really know when Stevens was exposed. The hijackers killed on 9/11 could indeed have done it within the margins of certainty on what we do know. Or others who didn't kill themselves but aided the plot could have done it. So don't be so quick to rule out that possibility. Especially when you haven't explained how the first case just happened to show up within a few miles of where the hijackers were staying.

[BeAChooser]

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-anthrax2-2008aug02,0,4558967.story

A financial motive for Ivins -- he had patents on two anthrax vaccines.

Boloboffin, you really need to learn to dig deeper ... do more than just read headlines and the first paragraph of articles. The LA Times announced in big headlines that "Suspect stood to gain from anthrax panic" then under that the sub-tile announced "Biodefense scientist Bruce Ivins could have collected royalties from a new vaccine he had co-invented." The first paragraph of the article then stated he "stood to gain financially from massive federal spending in the fear-filled aftermath of those killings." Wow! You'd think he was set to make millions!

BUT, in the eight paragraph of the article (still on the front page in case you missed it, boloboffin), it has this:


Some proportion would have been shared with the inventors," said the executive, who spoke anonymously because of contractual confidentiality, "Ivins would have stood to make tens of thousands of dollars, but not millions."


Now can you point us to sources that indicate he had financial problems so severe that he would have been willing to kill for a few tens of thousands of dollars? Or is this just another smear to build a motive? Like they did in the Foster case?

[SteveGrenard]

Seems odd to me that a man of his intelligence would commit suicide by Tylenol.

A slow, painful and miserable death. Kidneys, Liver shut down and are destroyed. Toxins and waste build up in your body. Don't think so!?

The initial reports I read said he overdosed on Tylenol #3, not plain Tylenol. There is a huge difference. Yes, plain Tylenol overdose causes liver failure but an OD of Tylenol #3 will kill you long before that from shock, hypotension, and respiratory failure. So which was it that he took? Plain Tylenol or Tylenol#3 which is Tylenol or acetaminophen (300 mgs) with codeine (30 mgs per tablet).

[Oxigen]

Only a fool would believe these reports by the MSM.

[gdnp]

Only a fool would believe these reports by the MSM.

Yes, rantings on internet fora are far more trustworthy.

[Oxigen]

Well, if the editor of the National Enquirer says it's true, that's good enough for me. I'm going to bed. :slp:

Sweet dreams.

[GreNME]

This whole case has seemed extra convoluted and fishy to me from the very start. It got even more so after the events with Hatfill and the feeding frenzy of character assassination that followed initial announcements of suspicion.

I was asked by someone I care about yesterday whether I thought this might be a case where Ivins had been framed or falsely implicated. I thought about it, trying to work out all of the information I know from the various news reports and weighing them against the facts that are known (which are few). I had to honestly admit I hadn't formed an opinion on it because there just wasn't enough information for me to trust any kind of accusation.

And, in that, I find it odd to see so much conclusiveness in some of the posts here, both conspiracy theorist and otherwise.

To go through my thoughts on the subject, I have to be clear that I'm not only counting facts and I try to avoid going too far into speculation in most cases. The problem is that there is so little evidence available to the public and we don't know when any other evidence will be released (yet). I think some of the most critical information on whether Ivins was possibly the person who did this will come in not about the level of circumstantial connection to his lab or areas where he had access, but instead on whether this was someone who was of a state of mind to commit these acts and whether there is evidence of actions, materials, and motivations linked directly to him.

On the state of mind thing I am just not clear. From the LA Times article that boloboffin linked earlier [link (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ivins3-2008aug03,0,3863335.story)]: She added that Ivins had been "forensically diagnosed by several top psychiatrists as a sociopathic, homicidal killer. I have that in evidence. And through my working with him, I also believe that to be very true." The implication there and the language used certainly seems very official and ominous, but it doesn't make any rational sense. This was someone who has, for nearly two decades, had pretty high security clearance. Not only that, but since 9/11 checks on security clearance has gotten tighter and more careful. It certainly boggles the mind how, if the implications being made about his sanity are in any way accurate, this man still managed to not only get security clearance to operate in the facility, not only to work with the dangerous materials, but also to assist the FBI in examining the early anthrax attack evidence in the early stages of the investigation. So, someone for whom several psychiatrists diagnosed as sociopathic and homicidal was not only given access to extremely dangerous biological material, but was also used to examine some of the earliest evidence from the anthrax attacks. That alone makes the allusions that this man's state of mind was known to be dangerous of a questionable veracity, to say the least. I don't discount the therapist making a restraining order, which is verifiable through court documentation, but unless there is more information in the unreleased evidence about documented assessments of his mental stability I have to chalk the current claims about his alleged mental state to be in the speculative are, at best.

The evidence of actions and materials are also not quite clear, but more concrete. There is supposedly evidence that some of the mailing materials came from close to where he lived, and there is the evidence that places him in a position to acquire the anthrax (which has been traced back to his lab). While this doesn't put the blame on Ivins for the actions, it certainly puts him high on the list of those who are capable of the actions. The problem is that this type of evidence is highly circumstantial, and if that is reflective of the rest of the evidence that is currently being held then that doesn't necessarily make the case that it was Ivins.

Another thing I wanted to touch on was some of the reporting that's going on about the topic. A lot of the major news agencies are framing this case as if there was definitely an impending indictment. For example, a CNN article [link (http://us.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/02/anthrax.suspect/index.html)] are saying things like: "the day Ivins died, lawyers were to meet and discuss a possible plea deal for him." The implication of such statements is that there is a presumed element of bargaining for the defendant on the case, but in reality even if the meeting was to discuss and plea deal it was most likely set up by the prosecution and not the defense. Furthermore, the case hadn't even finished going before a grand jury for authorization to go to trial, and that fact is being highly under-reported. There isn't necessarily reason to believe that this case was even going to make it all the way to court, let alone be a conclusive case on the anthrax attacks like some of the stories out there seem to imply but not outright state. Naturally, since the defendant is now dead we're not going to be able to know for sure how a trial would have worked out, but perhaps the evidence might be released at a later date if the FBI really does decide to call the case closed.

My only opinion on the matter at this point is that if the FBI does indeed close the case, they had better be able to present some pretty definitive evidence to the culpability of Ivins if they think he was the culprit. While that may not seem like it's necessary for a case that may for all intents be going cold, it's important for the historical implications of the case in the post-9/11 world. There may not be an overriding legal reason to document the closing of the case to the fullest extent possible, but if it isn't done then the FBI will be inviting heavy questioning of their reliability and due diligence on the case in the history books. That is not only tasty fodder for conspiracy theorists, but it also serves to damage the overall public confidence in the agency as a whole from a law enforcement stance.

[boloboffin]

Hmmm (http://anthraxvaccine.blogspot.com/2008/08/anthrax-evidence-is-said-to-be.html).

And hmmm (http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/audience/media/080108_suicide_demands_investigation_anthrax_attac ks/).

This remains way up in the air.

Who's the crazy one (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/04/anthrax/index.html)?

[GreNME]

Oy.

This story is not going to end well. Either someone's life will be destroyed through character assassination or the investigation is going to turn into the same kind of media circus that the OJ trial was.

[Tippit]

I agree with boloboffin, for it to be an "inside job" you would need evidence of government complicity.



What more evidence do you need than an insider who works for the government? If not, then define "government complicity".



McVeigh worked for the US army, does that mean the Oklahoma City bombing was an inside job? Of course not.

As far as I know, McVeigh was not officially enlisted with the Army at the time of the OKC bombing, and thus didn't use his position in the Army as an "insider". This is far different from a biological warfare scientist in an Army bio-weapons lab releasing weapons grade anthrax on the public.

Your particular brand of naivety is well suited for insiders who conspire to do these sorts of things, and then murder a scapegoat while posthumously portraying him as a homidical/suidical maniac, whether that's really what happened or not.

[Pardalis]

What more evidence do you need than an insider who works for the government? If not, then define "government complicity".

Government complicity.

Your particular brand of naivety is well suited for insiders who conspire to do these sorts of things, and then murder a scapegoat while posthumously portraying him as a homidical/suidical maniac, whether that's really what happened or not.

Your particular brand of "truth" and "justice" seeking is called fascism.

One needs evidence in order to convict people, or groups of people of a crime.

[BeAChooser]

There is supposedly evidence that some of the mailing materials came from close to where he lived, and there is the evidence that places him in a position to acquire the anthrax (which has been traced back to his lab).

On the whole a very good post by you . I would like to comment on this sentence, however.

I would say the anthrax has SUPPOSEDLY been traced back to his lab. But can we trust the FBI in this? Can we trust the LA times in reporting everything? Remember, this is the same FBI that told us Vince Foster was depressed (when he clearly was not if you believe the initial statements from his doctor, family, friends and work associates). The FBI in that case clearly tampered with the evidence (turning written notes that said "prescription" into typewritten forms that said "depression", for instance) and badgering witnesses into changing their stories. And the LA Times never reported that.

It's hard to believe that "new team" did what the FBI and government should have done years ago in this case ... examine the spores closely. Afterall, if one is trying to find the source, that would be the logical thing to do. But NOW they want us to believe they only got around to cross-referencing who had access to those types of spores?

And just because Ivins lived within 200 miles of New Jersey where at least some of the letters were mailed isn't all that definitive. Because we know that some of the hijackers also lived in New Jersey at the time. For example, Hani Hanjour and Salem Alhazmi rented a one-room apartment in Paterson, New Jersey. Nawaf Alhazmi, Saeed Alghamdi, and Mohamed Atta were seen coming and going by neighbors. And that was only one of the places they frequented in New Jersey over the months before 9/11. They even had several bank accounts in the state.

I've an open mind. Just explain how the first case was infected and the curious coincidence that the case worked only a few miles from where some of the hijackers were living in Florida. If they can show that Ivins could have known where they were at the time the letter that passed through AMI was mailed, then they might be on the right track. But until then, call me skeptical. Especially since there are facts suggesting that letter was mailed BEFORE 9/11. :D

[Galileo]

This website is disgusting! You kick men who are down, now you kick a man who is dead and no longer able to defend himself. Anonymous leaks that slander Dr. Irvins, a man helping the Anthrax investigation, and you people run with the rumors! Sick!!

[GreNME]

On the whole a very good post by you . I would like to comment on this sentence, however.

I would say the anthrax has SUPPOSEDLY been traced back to his lab. But can we trust the FBI in this?

Since it wasn't the FBI who did the tracing, but instead a number of biochemical scientists doing a number of analyses (including some scientists in Ivins' lab), I'd say the FBI doesn't quite factor in so much as the determiner of whether the facts presented are accurate. I'd agree that I should have put a 'supposedly' in there because analysis of the samples aren't quite 100% conclusive, but so far they are more conclusive for there than other known labs on the Eastern Seaboard.

Can we trust the LA times in reporting everything?

I don't care about the LA Times. I equally don't care about CNN, MSNBC, and so on. They are all providing commentary and a few details, and none of them are capable of presenting this case in its entirety to anyone's satisfaction if they want a full view of the case. Since doing so isn't the function of any of those companies, I'm not sure what you're asking me to require of the LA Times.

Remember, this is the same FBI that told us Vince Foster was depressed (when he clearly was not if you believe the initial statements from his doctor, family, friends and work associates). The FBI in that case clearly tampered with the evidence (turning written notes that said "prescription" into typewritten forms that said "depression", for instance) and badgering witnesses into changing their stories. And the LA Times never reported that.

So, what is the price of tea in China? I'm talking about facts and "what we know" and you're giving me character attacks against an agency that is known to not have 100% accuracy. Since I'm already trying to approach this with a reasonable amount of skepticism I'm not sure what your "reminder" is supposed to accomplish. Could you clarify?

It's hard to believe that "new team" did what the FBI and government should have done years ago in this case ... examine the spores closely. Afterall, if one is trying to find the source, that would be the logical thing to do. But NOW they want us to believe they only got around to cross-referencing who had access to those types of spores?

Um, they did examine the samples closely. Ivins was one of the many scientists who were brought on early on to examine the samples. I believe it was stated that Ivins and his lab were brought on as early as October of 2001 to examine the earliest samples. I don't know what you're talking about with implying that the actual anthrax samples hadn't been examined early on.

And just because Ivins lived within 200 miles of New Jersey where at least some of the letters were mailed isn't all that definitive. Because we know that some of the hijackers also lived in New Jersey at the time. For example, Hani Hanjour and Salem Alhazmi rented a one-room apartment in Paterson, New Jersey. Nawaf Alhazmi, Saeed Alghamdi, and Mohamed Atta were seen coming and going by neighbors. And that was only one of the places they frequented in New Jersey over the months before 9/11. They even had several bank accounts in the state.

You might not be aware that the FBI is claiming to have evidence that some of the materials used in the mailing (the postage) was acquired near Ivins' home. Perhaps you're mixing that detail up with the location of where the anthrax was mailed. They aren't the same thing.

I've an open mind. Just explain how...

Woah there, pilgrim. I'm looking for information and have relayed what I know. I'm not providing an explanation. In fact, I'm explicitly cautioning everyone-- both 'debunker' and 'truther' alike-- to refrain from trying to apply any specific explanation to the case until way more information than what is currently available is known. The reason is because at this point there is mostly circumstantial evidence present for digestion by the public. There is plenty of likelihood the story isn't going to be either open-and-shut or an obvious conspiracy of some sort. Instead, this looks more and more like there are too many things complicating getting the full story.

Look on the bright side: even Daschle is making public statements that the FBI should not close the case immediately and should be more open with what they believe gives them enough to conclude the case should be closed in the first place.

[Oxigen]

The only person to have claimed Ivins was unstable is this Jean Duley woman who describes herself as a "theripist" (sic). Considering the fact that she (rather than Ivins) had a criminal record and had recently been contacted by the FBI, her statements sound very much like she had been fed a pile of garbage by them.

Check out salon.com and Glenn Greenwald. Her convictions are there and she most certainly wasn't a therapist!

[BeAChooser]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/02/AR2008080201632.html?hpid=topnews


Scientists Question FBI Probe On Anthrax

Ivins Could Not Have Been Attacker, Some Say

... snip ...

August 3, 2008

... snip ...

Yet, colleagues and friends of the vaccine specialist remained convinced that Ivins was innocent: They contended that he had neither the motive nor the means to create the fine, lethal powder that was sent by mail to news outlets and congressional offices in the late summer and fall of 2001. Mindful of previous FBI mistakes in fingering others in the case, many are deeply skeptical that the bureau has gotten it right this time.

"I really don't think he's the guy. I say to the FBI, 'Show me your evidence,' " said Jeffrey J. Adamovicz, former director of the bacteriology division at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases, or USAMRIID, on the grounds of the sprawling Army fort in Frederick. "A lot of the tactics they used were designed to isolate him from his support. The FBI just continued to push his buttons."

... snip ...

"USAMRIID doesn't deal with powdered anthrax," said Richard O. Spertzel, a former biodefense scientist who worked with Ivins at the Army lab. "I don't think there's anyone there who would have the foggiest idea how to do it. You would need to have the opportunity, the capability and the motivation, and he didn't possess any of those."

Another scientist who worked with Ivins acknowledged it would have been technically possible to manufacture powdered anthrax at Fort Detrick, but unlikely that anyone could have done so without being detected.

"As well as we knew each other, and the way the labs were run, someone would discover what was going on," said the scientist, "especially since dry spores were not something that we prepared or worked with."

... snip ...

Jaye Holly, who lived next door to the Ivinses until she and her husband moved to New York a month ago, said she couldn't believe that her former neighbor, who was obsessed with grass recycling and who happily drove a 20-year-old faded red van, would endanger others for financial gain.

"I can't imagine him being involved in a scheme to make money or to make a profit, especially one that would put people at risk or even die," Holly said. "That's not the Bruce we knew. He was sweet, friendly. I mean, he was into grass recycling."

[parky76]

This website is disgusting! You kick men who are down, now you kick a man who is dead and no longer able to defend himself. Anonymous leaks that slander Dr. Irvins, a man helping the Anthrax investigation, and you people run with the rumors! Sick!!

would you like to see this website banned and the posters you disagree with imprisoned for treason?

[GreNME]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/02/AR2008080201632.html?hpid=topnews

Do you understand the concept of "quote mining" and why it's frowned upon as unreliable?

Like I said, the evidence for where isn't completely certain yet, and I've already clarified that I should have been more clear. However, to claim they didn't have guys examining the evidence early on is plain wrong. The problem was that, early on, the ABC debacle and the continued attempt by the administration to link the anthrax to Iraq hampered the scientific side of the investigation.

[BeAChooser]

Do you understand the concept of "quote mining" and why it's frowned upon as unreliable?

Are you saying the Washington Post is not be believed? :D

[GreNME]

Are you saying the Washington Post is not be believed? :D

If you're going to just play word games, then we're not really having a conversation.

[Dictator Cheney]

nothing solved :) no evidence presented. only suspects.
this case will never be solved, those who did it are investigating it. what do you expect.

[gdnp]

If Ivins is guilty his suicide may help the investigation. GreNME points out the seeming contradiction of having a sociopathic homicidal individual with security clearance and access to dangerous pathogens. It remains to be seen--this is entirely speculation on my part--but this may come down to the confidentiality of the doctor-patient relationship and associated psychiatric records. It may be much easier for the FBI to get access to these records now that Ivins is dead.

[GreNME]

I would caution using his apparent suicide as evidence of any homicidal or sociopathic tendencies. Even if it was the result of a depression it wouldn't have necessarily precluded a biological condition (meaning a biochemical depression as a previous condition), since depressions can be situational or emotional based as well.

[BeAChooser]

If you're going to just play word games, then we're not really having a conversation.

I'm just curious why you say highlighting certain text from the Washington Post makes it unreliable? Have I misrepresented what they said?

[Pardalis]

nothing solved :) no evidence presented. only suspects.
this case will never be solved, those who did it are investigating it. what do you expect.

Since there's no evidence, how do you know this?

[Walter Ego]

....Linkies...

Countdown: Questions linger after anthrax death (http://olbermann.org/ko/video_detail.cfm?id=8297) (Aug 1, 2008)
Countdown: Smell testing the anthrax story (http://olbermann.org/ko/video_detail.cfm?id=8296) (Aug 1, 2008)

Olbermann had another segment with Gerald Posner on the anthrax story last night (August 4).

http://olbermann.org/ko/video_detail.cfm?id=8308


Interestingly, Posner had published books debunking both the JFJ and MLK assignation CTs.

[boloboffin]

WSJ: Bruce Ivins Wasn't the Anthrax Culprit (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121789293570011775.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries)

[Kestrel]

The envelopes used in the mailings were evidently purchased at a postal center blocks from Fort Detrick and also Ivins' home.

The pre stamped envelopes used in the anthrax attacks were a standard item available at post offices and automated postal centers all across the country. How would they know that these specific envelopes were sold at one specific postal center?

[PhantomWolf]

nothing solved :) no evidence presented. only suspects.
this case will never be solved, those who did it are investigating it. what do you expect.

So you are claiming that the FBI did it, without any evidence?

[Oxigen]

Look even at this stage, the MSM are trying to draw back, calling it a cock-up rather than a cover-up. Read the comments everywhere, (except here - which are very few and I do wonder why) - no one believes this ridiculous story.

[Pardalis]

Look even at this stage, the MSM are trying to draw back, calling it a cock-up rather than a cover-up. Read the comments everywhere, (except here - which are very few and I do wonder why) - no one believes this ridiculous story.

So the media isn't part of the conspiracy anymore? It got fired or something?

[Profanz]

Look even at this stage, the MSM are trying to draw back, calling it a cock-up rather than a cover-up. Read the comments everywhere, (except here - which are very few and I do wonder why) - no one believes this ridiculous story.

Yes I’ve been wondering the same thing. Where are all the anti-conspiracy idiots on this story? I posted early in this thread and got nothing. I think this whole story embarrasses them and the commitment they have painted themselves into a corner on regarding this administration and all of the apologizing they have done for it surrounding 9/11 over the last few years.

They don’t want any part of it. It flies in the face of everything they have been supporting about 9/11, the governments investigations, and it's conclusions.

[Pardalis]

Yes I’ve been wondering the same thing. Where are all the anti-conspiracy idiots on this story? I posted early in this thread and got nothing. I think this whole story embarrasses them and the commitment they have painted themselves into a corner on regarding this administration and all of the apologizing they have done for it surrounding 9/11 over the last few years.

They don’t want any part of it. It flies in the face of everything they have been supporting about 9/11, the governments investigations, and it's (sic) conclusions.

You seem to know a heck of a lot more than the FBI itself, if you want to share anything that might shed some light, please do.

[Profanz]

You seem to know a heck of a lot more than the FBI itself, if you want to share anything that might shed some light, please do.

I think it’s pretty obvious that if Hatfield had succumbed to the pressure in the same manner as this latest suspect did the case would have been solved all that much sooner for all of you so-called critical thinking skeptics. You all fail big time and this story shows it. It’s just that some of you are smart enough not to go near it and some of you aren’t.

[Pardalis]

I think it’s pretty obvious that if Hatfield had succumbed to the pressure in the same manner as this latest suspect did the case would have been solved all that much sooner for all of you so-called critical thinking skeptics. You all fail big time and this story shows it. It’s just that some of you are smart enough not to go near it and some of you aren’t.

So I take it you don't have any evidence to share?

[Profanz]

So I take it you don't have any evidence to share?

Oh you do huh? And what's your position on the FBI and their failure to produce anything that links this guy to the Anthrax attack anymore then Hatfield was linked to it. I guess you just relate with the FBI. They have nothing and neither do you. Just keep up with your blind faith. You take it huh? Yeah you take the government and whatever they feed you right up the... does it hurt?

[Pardalis]

Oh you do huh?

That's my point, I don't, and I don't pretend to.

And what's your position on the FBI and their failure to produce anything that links this guy to the Anthrax attack anymore then Hatfield was linked to it. I guess you just relate with the FBI. They have nothing and neither do you. Just keep up with your blind faith. You take it huh? Yeah you take the government ans whatever they feed you right up the... does it hurt?My position on this is that I don't know who did it, and I prefer to leave the investigation to the professionals. I trust the process will eventually lead to the truth, and will not accuse anyone or anything before evidence is found.

You on the other hand seem to be the one to accuse alot of people without an iota of clue.

[Profanz]

That's my point, I don't, and I don't pretend to.

My position on this is that I don't know who did it, and I prefer to let the investigation to the professionals. I trust the process will eventually lead to the truth, and will not accuse anyone or anything before evidence is found.

It has been left to the so-called professionals for seven years now and seven years later you "don't know who did it" but you "trust the process will eventually lead to the truth, and will not accuse anyone or anything before evidence is found".

What the hell are you talking about? They haven't already accused someone and waited until he was dead to publicly do so and will now probably be bringing the investigation to a close? After they already falsely accused someone else and had to pay out a settlement to them?

You on the other hand seem to be the one to accuse alot of people without an iota of clue.

Yeah right. Me and the FBI.

[gdnp]

Seems to me that the CTs are jumping to conclusions about skeptics jumping to conclusions while the skeptics are waiting for the evidence.

[Pardalis]

It has been left to the so-called professionals for seven years now and seven years later you "don't know who did it" but you "trust the process will eventually lead to the truth, and will not accuse anyone or anything before evidence is found".

It takes time, that's nothing unusual. I have no reason to distrust the process. At least it shows they are being thorough. If there was a conspiracy, wouldn't it all have been resolved already?

What the hell are you talking about? They haven't already accused someone and waited until he was dead to publicly do so and will now probably be bringing the investigation to a close? After they already falsely accused someone else and had to pay out a settlement to them?Speculation again. How do you know he's been falsely accused? Again, you imply to know more than most people, but you don't know anything more than anyone.

[Profanz]

It takes time, that's nothing unusual. I have no reason to distrust the process. At least it shows they are being thorough. If there was a conspiracy, wouldn't it all have been resolved already?

It takes time? You do realize they are expected to close the case don't you?

Speculation again. How do you know he's been falsely accused? Again, you imply to know more than most people, but you don't know anything more than anyone.

Speculation? The one they falsely accused is Steven Hatfield who worked at the same location where the FBI has claimed the new DNA evidence came from. How do I know he was falsely accused? Just a hunch from the 5.8 million they paid him for falsely accusing him.

Are you done yet not being smart enough as your so-called skeptic friends who aren't weighing in on this thread?

[Pardalis]

It takes time? You do realize they are expected to close the case don't you?

Yes, let them do that, please.

Speculation? The one they falsely accused is Steven Hatfield who worked at the same location where the FBI has claimed the new DNA evidence came from. How do I know he was falsely accused? Just a hunch from the 5.8 million they paid him for falsely accusing him.


I thought you were talking about this present suspect Ivins. But you've just shown an example of a case where the FBI has been proven wrong.

The system seems to work. They were mistaken, the victim was compensated. You see, no big conspiracy here.

Are you done yet not being smart enough as your so-called skeptic friends who aren't weighing in on this thread?

Because people like you are already calling it a government conspiracy without any proof.

[gdnp]

I thought you were talking about this present suspect Ivins. But you've just shown an example of a case where the FBI has been proven wrong.

The system seems to work. They were mistaken, the victim was compensated. You see, no big conspiracy here.

I think you may be conceding too much here. The FBI clearly suspected Hatfill, but named him a "person of interest". I do not believe they ever indicted him or even officially called him a suspect. AFAIK the compensation is related to leaking information to the press, which Hatfill claims (rightly) damaged his reputation. So the worst you can accuse the FBI of here is following a false lead and leaking supposedly secret information.

[fuelair]

I have noticed that the media seems to be noticing that the woman who put out the restraining order has an "interesting" background, did some of her stuff in odd order/time and is not exactly a psychiatrist or close too it and her statements contradict those of a number of people who knew him. Since I have met and talked with no one involved (and am not sure he was even at Detrick when I was - and my group was not playing with anthrax) I simply find that interesting and am waiting to see where it all goes! :)

[BeAChooser]

The FBI clearly suspected Hatfill, but named him a "person of interest". I do not believe they ever indicted him or even officially called him a suspect.

You think any of us are fooled by lawyer-speak?

[Pardalis]

You think any of us are fooled by lawyer-speak?

You can speculate all you want, the jury is still out on this one. Heck, the jury hasn't even been put together yet.

[Tippit]

You can speculate all you want, the jury is still out on this one. Heck, the jury hasn't even been put together yet.

There won't be any jury because there won't be any trial, genius. The suspect was suicided.

[boloboffin]

There won't be any jury because there won't be any trial, genius. The suspect was suicided.

Any evidence that Ivins was "suicided"? No? *sigh*

[Hellbound]

Also, the statement that "there won't be any trial" presupposes that there will be no other evidence that might lead to another suspect. Again, the CT camp is presupposing that they know the answer, in the absence of evidence.

I'm with those who are waiting this out to see what happens. Heck, all the evidence that may or may not have been collected has not been released at this point, anyway. That won't come out until a trial, generally. For all we know they may have 2,000 pages hand-writen by Irvins where he describes his nefarious plot...or they may have nothing. I don't know, and (unlike the CTers) I don't pretend to.

[boloboffin]

Just now (http://wjz.com/local/Bruce.Ivins.anthrax.2.788902.html):

The chief judge of Washington's federal courthouse has unsealed hundreds of pages of documents in the FBI's nearly seven-year investigation of anthrax mailings that killed five people.

The move Wednesday morning by U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth came after consultation with Amy Jeffress, a national security prosecutor at Justice, and as FBI Director Robert Mueller prepared to brief the families of anthrax victims on details of the case.

The documents that Lamberth authorized to be released include more than a dozen search warrants aimed at Army microbiologist Bruce Ivins, whom federal investigators were closing in on as he committed suicide last week.

Ivins' lawyer maintains the brilliant but troubled scientist would have been proved innocent had he lived. And some of Ivins' friends and former co-workers at the Fort Detrick biological warfare lab in Frederick, Md., say they doubt he could or would have unleashed the deadly toxin.

Links when available. C-Span is working on getting the documents online, as are others.

[Rob Lister]

Please stop with the CT accusations.

The FBI does not have a good record of playing fair and it is certainly not out of character for them to use smear in order to achieve an objective (i.e. closing a case).

From what I've seen so far, this is nothing more than a smear. It might turn out that it really is him, but so far the only thing I've seen (originating from them) is unsupported smearing allegations.

On the other side I see strong refutation by friends, family, neighbors, and co-workers, as well as logical and physical evidence to the contrary.

I'll keep an open mind but I'm going to presume him innocent. I don't buy the 'news' presented thus far.

As a final edit: I reiterate that they may have their culprit, but I'm not going to believe it simply because they (the FBI) sez so, and nor for the reason that a Grand Jury indicted (ham sandwich reference omitted).

[Pardalis]

There won't be any jury because there won't be any trial, genius. The suspect was suicided.

And you're the judge, jury and executioner, all from your little personal computer?

[boloboffin]

Looks like a bunch of search warrants (http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/) at first glance.

[Oxigen]

Please stop with the CT accusations.

The FBI does not have a good record of playing fair and it is certainly not out of character for them to use smear in order to achieve an objective (i.e. closing a case).

From what I've seen so far, this is nothing more than a smear. It might turn out that it really is him, but so far the only thing I've seen (originating from them) is unsupported smearing allegations.

On the other side I see strong refutation by friends, family, neighbors, and co-workers, as well as logical and physical evidence to the contrary.

I'll keep an open mind but I'm going to presume him innocent. I don't buy the 'news' presented thus far.


As a final edit: I reiterate that they may have their culprit, but I'm not going to believe it simply because they (the FBI) sez so, and nor for the reason that a Grand Jury indicted (ham sandwich reference omitted).
Amen to that. And judging by some of the recent coverage, not everyone is buying into it.

[Oxigen]

Yes I’ve been wondering the same thing. Where are all the anti-conspiracy idiots on this story? I posted early in this thread and got nothing. I think this whole story embarrasses them and the commitment they have painted themselves into a corner on regarding this administration and all of the apologizing they have done for it surrounding 9/11 over the last few years.

They don’t want any part of it. It flies in the face of everything they have been supporting about 9/11, the governments investigations, and it's conclusions.

You have hit the nail on the head!! :)

[gdnp]

From what I've seen so far, this is nothing more than a smear. It might turn out that it really is him, but so far the only thing I've seen (originating from them) is unsupported smearing allegations.

On the other side I see strong refutation by friends, family, neighbors, and co-workers, as well as logical and physical evidence to the contrary.

So far everything is a rumor, but not all of it is positive for Ivins. There are reports of psychiatric issues, substance abuse, infatuation with members of a particular sorority. All we know for a fact is that he is dead from an apparent suicide and that the therapist took out a restraining order. Are you asserting that the therapist made up the charges, perhaps under direction of her FBI overlords? Or she just likes taking out restraining orders for fun?

[Oxigen]

Speculation again. How do you know he's been falsely accused? Again, you imply to know more than most people, but you don't know anything more than anyone.

And how does anyone know that he has been rightfully accused?

[boloboffin]

Some of the more damning evidence is his late night and weekend stints in the B3 suite where the anthrax was, unsupervised, right before both of the mailings.

The first one started in mid-August!

There is a lot of info in there. Some of it seems weird if seen alone (the postal envelopes in particular is a loose argument), but not all of the evidence has that much wiggle room.

[Oxigen]

So far everything is a rumor, but not all of it is positive for Ivins. There are reports of psychiatric issues, substance abuse, infatuation with members of a particular sorority. All we know for a fact is that he is dead from an apparent suicide and that the therapist took out a restraining order. Are you asserting that the therapist made up the charges, perhaps under direction of her FBI overlords? Or she just likes taking out restraining orders for fun?

I could see a situation where this woman was targeted by the FBI in view of her past record, fed a load of tripe, and maybe genuinely frightened (by their assertions) filed for a restraining order. It doesn't make her assertions true.

[Oxigen]

So the media isn't part of the conspiracy anymore? It got fired or something?

I think even they knew when not to push it!

[gdnp]

I could see a situation where this woman was targeted by the FBI in view of her past record, fed a load of tripe, and maybe genuinely frightened (by their assertions) filed for a restraining order. It doesn't make her assertions true.

So you are speculating that the FBI coerced this woman into fabricating stories about Ivins plans to kill coworkers? Based on what evidence?

[Rob Lister]

So far everything is a rumor, but not all of it is positive for Ivins. There are reports of psychiatric issues, substance abuse, infatuation with members of a particular sorority. All we know for a fact is that he is dead from an apparent suicide and that the therapist took out a restraining order. Are you asserting that the therapist made up the charges, perhaps under direction of her FBI overlords? Or she just likes taking out restraining orders for fun?

everything you pointed out that was NOT in support of Ivins was, and will remain, smear until such time as there is evidence to support it.

Please link to the "therapist" evidence.

[PhantomWolf]

Speculation? The one they falsely accused is Steven Hatfield who worked at the same location where the FBI has claimed the new DNA evidence came from. How do I know he was falsely accused? Just a hunch from the 5.8 million they paid him for falsely accusing him.

Sorry you are wrong here, you need to go and read up on the case. The FBI never named him as a suspect, the closest they came too it was saying that he was one of a dozen or so people of interest. It was the Attorney General, John Ashcroft who said that Hatfill was a suspect, something that he should not have said either, and it was that statment and the way the DoJ handled the inquiry and tran the FBI during it that was the main reason for the case. The case was against Ashcroft and the DoJ with the FBI being lesser defendants, there not because they named him a suspect, but because under Ashcroft's orders they were alleged to have violated Hatfill's constitutional rights in the way the investigated him (ie bugging phones and circulating his photo.)

[A Christian Sceptic]

Anyone know what they are saying about this guy and his connection with the anthrax attacks that happened in Pakistan at the same time as the attacks in America? Or are those considered different attacks?

See for example http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06E1D91639F930A35752C1A9679C8B 63 From November 2001.

[Oxigen]

So you are speculating that the FBI coerced this woman into fabricating stories about Ivins plans to kill coworkers? Based on what evidence?

I said fed her stories, which she believed and maybe honestly reported. She has admitted being in contact with them before the restraining order. Where is she now?

Read the news, his coworkers are all standing up for him!!

[roundhead]

Considering she was "scared" of him, and he was released on the 16th, it seems odd it would take her 8 days to get around to the restraining order(24th)

I guess she decided he would be OK till then:)

[Oxigen]

Considering she was "scared" of him, and he was released on the 16th, it seems odd it would take her 8 days to get around to the restraining order(24th)

I guess she decided he would be OK till then:)

We (thinking people) also wonder about that!

[Pardalis]

And how does anyone know that he has been rightfully accused?

We don't. Besides, has there been formal accusations?

I think even they knew when not to push it!

This doesn't make sense.

[Oxigen]

[QUOTE=boloboffin;3911856]But he shortcircuited that entire process. He could still be a depressed person who lost reason and thought that this time the FBI would have him, evidence or no, but I tend toward the "probably had the right guy this time" opinion.

QUOTE]

Why do you think that. This latest evidence about him using a lyophiliser is absurd. I used one of those for research when I did my B.Sc, M.Sc and Ph.D.(A number of years ago). It is normal laboratory equipment, just like a centrifuge.

Got the feeling there is a double post. Sorry folks.

[Oxigen]

[QUOTE=boloboffin;3911856]But he shortcircuited that entire process. He could still be a depressed person who lost reason and thought that this time the FBI would have him, evidence or no, but I tend toward the "probably had the right guy this time" opinion.

QUOTE]

Why do you think that. This latest evidence about him using a lyophiliser is absurd. I used one of those for research when I did my B.Sc, M.Sc and Ph.D.(A number of years ago). It is normal laboratory equipment, just like a centrifuge.

It is sort of like saying that an accountant shouldn't be in possession of a pen or a ledger, if you get my drift.

Am willing to believe he was depressed, who wouldn't be in that position.

[Oxigen]

This doesn't make sense.

I think the media knew their information was untrustworthy, as did anyone who read it over the last few days.

[Travis]

I think the media knew their information was untrustworthy, as did anyone who read it over the last few days.

So the media is, according to you, questioning this but not the events of 9/11..........interesting.

[Oxigen]

So the media is, according to you, questioning this but not the events of 9/11..........interesting.

Don't recall saying anything about 9/11.

Damn right that they should question this.

[Oxigen]

So the media is, according to you, questioning this but not the events of 9/11..........interesting.

As I said, never mentioned 9/11. I am talking about Bruce Ivins, whom I believe may have been hounded to his death. My thoughts are with his family.

Are you being paid to constantly mention 9/11. What are the going rates for your employment. Can you recommend your employer?

[Kestrel]

Some of the more damning evidence is his late night and weekend stints in the B3 suite where the anthrax was, unsupervised, right before both of the mailings.

The first one started in mid-August!

There is a lot of info in there. Some of it seems weird if seen alone (the postal envelopes in particular is a loose argument), but not all of the evidence has that much wiggle room.

Staying late or working in the lab on weekend is rather common for scientists. If Ivans only worked normal hours except during this period, I would find that suspicious. Otherwise, it only proves he had access to the virus.

Has anyone come up with a motive for Ivans to choose the specific people targeted in the 2001 anthrax attacks?

[boloboffin]

Ivins spent extraordinary, unprecedented, and unsupervised time in the B3 lab before each of the mailings. He admitted to having no real reason for being there.

Ivins on several occasions provided fake sampling of the relevant anthrax strain to FBI officials.

Ivins lied about how he discovered that his anthrax matched the samples of anthrax from the mailings.

Ivins began taking Celexa almost immediately after seeking a psychiatrist's help in February 2000. He reported several side effects, including paranoia. He also reported in emails that his psychiatrist (not the therapist in the news) was considering a diagnosis of Paranoid Personality Disorder in July 2000.

The emails are very bad for him:

August 12, 2000, "Last Saturday, as you probably guessed from my email, was one of my worst days in months. I wish I could control the thoughts in my mind. It's hard enough sometimes controlling my behavior. When I'm being eaten alive inside, I always try to put on a good front here at work and at home, so I don't spread the pestilence. ...I get incredibly paranoid, delusional thoughts at times, and there's nothing I can do until they go away, either by themselves or with drugs.

March 4, 2001, "The people in my group just don't pick up on what I try to say. They are no into the kinds of problems I bring up, so it's hard for them to deal with it. The psychiatrist is helpful only because he prescribes the Celexa. He's not that easy to talk to, and he doesn't really pick up on my problems. The woman I saw before I went into group wanted to get me put into jail. That wasn't very helpful either. I'm down to a point where there are some things that are eating away that I feel I can't tell ANYONE. ...

September 26, 2001, "Of the people in my "group," everyone but me is in the depression/sadness/flight mode for stress. I'm really the only scary one in the group. Others are talking about how sad they are or scared they are, but my reaction to the WTC/Pentagon events is far different. Of course, I don't talk about how I really feel with them - it would just make them worse. Seeing how differently I reacted than they did to the recent events makes me really think about myself a lot. I just heard tonight that Bin Laden terrorists for sure have anthrax and sarin gas. ...Osama Bin Laden has just decreed death to all Jews and all Americans.

The fictitious return address on envelopes used for the second round of mailing even have a haunting connection to Ivins. They were labeled "4th GRADE" and "GREENDALE SCHOOL. This appears to be connected to an article in the American Family Association magazine for donors. It describes a lawsuit filed by the AFA Law Center, in which Wisconsin state case workers went to a Greendale Baptist Academy to interview a fourth grade student about corporal punishment at the school. The interview was not conducted with the knowledge of the parents. Mr. and Mrs. Ivins had been donors to the AFA but had stopped for two years. One month after this article appeared in the magazine still being delivered to their house, their donations began again.

Mr. Ivins was a practicing Catholic, involved in pro-life activism. Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy were being targeted right before the 9/11 attacks as Catholics who should be excommunicated for aiding and abetting abortion. In the September 26 email, Ivins wrote:

The news media has been saying that some members of Congress and members of the ACLU oppose many of the Justice Department proposals for combating terrorism, saying they are unconstitutional and infringe too much on civil liberties. Many people don't know it but the official ACLU position is to oppose all metal detectors in airports and schools and other public buildings. It's interesting that we may now be living in a time when our biggest threat to civil liberties an freedom doesn't come from the government but from enemies of the government. Osama Bin Laden has just decreed death to all Jews and all Americans, but I guess that doesn't mean a lot to the ACLU."

The similar themes of Ivins' emails and the anthrax letters are apparent. There's more, but this is the most persuasive to me.

[fuelair]

So far everything is a rumor, but not all of it is positive for Ivins. There are reports of psychiatric issues, substance abuse, infatuation with members of a particular sorority. All we know for a fact is that he is dead from an apparent suicide and that the therapist took out a restraining order. Are you asserting that the therapist made up the charges, perhaps under direction of her FBI overlords? Or she just likes taking out restraining orders for fun?Though I noted oddities - as reported on either CNN or MSNBC - (and I know I'm not who you asked this) I have made no assumption yet. Their/It's concerns were A) he was able to check himself out of the clinic and B) there were some timings in what she did that they found suspicious (the news people, not the FBI). The media (whichever of the two I was viewing)gave the appearance of believing the situation with her was not transparent.

[Oxigen]

Staying late or working in the lab on weekend is rather common for scientists. If Ivans only worked normal hours except during this period, I would find that suspicious. Otherwise, it only proves he had access to the virus.

Has anyone come up with a motive for Ivans to choose the specific people targeted in the 2001 anthrax attacks?

As someone who has worked in research, it is very normal to work late hours. And what is worse, you don't get paid for it, you do it because you are looking for something new or a breakthrough! God help the world, if people can't understand that.

[boloboffin]

As someone who has worked in research, it is very normal to work late hours. And what is worse, you don't get paid for it, you do it because you are looking for something new or a breakthrough! God help the world, if people can't understand that.

:dl:

Anyway, Greenwald on the admittedly selective release of documents (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/06/fbi_documents/index.html):

What is most conspicuously absent from these FBI documents is any real forensic evidence linking Ivins to the anthrax that was sent. That's particularly striking because the FBI took numerous swabs of Ivins' residence, his office space, his laboratory devices (presumably including the lyothilizer he used), his locker, his cars. If they had discovered any anthrax traces that genetically matched what was sent in 2001, they certainly would have said so. But they don't.

It's long been claimed that the property that rendered so dangerous the anthrax sent to Daschle and Leahy was that it was airborne. At times it was even claimed that the anthrax was aerosolized. Under all circumstances, in order for it to be inhalation anthrax, it would have to disburse rather easily. Wouldn't one expect that the FBI's swabs would reveal traces of anthrax somewhere on the clothes, in the home or other physical surroundings of the anthrax attacker? Yet apparently those multiple swabbing episodes turned up nothing, at least based on the documents that were released today.

Nor are there any real answers to the question of how Ivins would have manufactured, on his own and without being detected, anthrax grade of the type that was used in the attacks. The numerous hours he spent alone in the lab doesn't address what many of his colleagues said would have been his technological inability to produce anthrax of this type.

He quotes Representative Rush Holt:

I appreciate the preliminary briefing that FBI Director Mueller gave me today. I am pleased the FBI finally has begun to answer the questions that the families of the victims have had for nearly seven years. While the circumstantial evidence pointing to Dr. Ivins that the Department of Justice released today is compelling, a number of important questions remain unanswered, such as why investigators remained focused on Dr. Hatfill long after they had begun to suspect Dr. Ivins of the crime and why investigators are so certain that Ivins acted alone. In addition, there are important policy questions for handling any future incidents of bioterrorism. I will continue to conduct additional oversight on this issue over the course of the next several months.

What we have here is really great probable caus