Are Sylvia Browne and Madalyn Murray O'Hair similar?

[dustbunny]

Last week while watching Tv I was reminded of Madalyn Murray O'Hair. She was well known for her nastiness, foul language and distaste for anyone who didn't believe in her cause. I couldn't help but think that Sylvia Browne had a lot of similarities to this woman.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair didn't care about her behaviour on screen where as Sylvia Browne (even though she fails miserably) wants the general public to believe she's caring and compassionate. We all know how vile Sylvia Browne is in the real world and I just wondered if anyone else thought the same?

[imjohn]

O'Hair was not an especially nice person, but she was brave and did a lot to advance the rights of the non-religious in this country.

For that I honor her memory.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I think they're similar in the same way both are similar to Bela Abzug.

I think they're totally different because O'Hair was willing to give an ex-con a chance and paid for it with her life while Browne wouldn't allow anyone who might be any threat to her money within 100 feet of her.

I'm not, and will never be a member of AA, nor am I a fan of her tactics (don't get me started on how stupid the blasphemy challenge was), but to suggest that the efforts she made on the part of actually adhering to the Separation clause lumps her in any group that frog-voiced ***** belongs in is an insult to her legacy and memory.

[LibraryLady]

Both abrasive? Yes.

Both heavyset? Yes.

Both out to improve conditions in the United States? No.

Both concerned with the law being applied equitably between believers and non-believers? No.

Unimportant stuff: similar.

Important stuff: dissimilar.


I might have met O'Hair when I was a child. Her lawyer, Leonard Kerpelman, lived behind us and I played with his daughter Sally. I remember meeting a heavyset woman at one point or another at Sally's house. However, it could have just been an aunt or something.

[dustbunny]

I've watched a few programmes about Madalyn Murray O'Hair over the years. Some of them described her murder but very much concentrated on her public behaviour. The honorary side of Madalyn Murray O'Hair deserves some admiration, it's just her approach to it that didn't sit well with a lot of people. Sylvia Browne's beliefs have been created for her own benefit, there is no positive outcome from that.

[Wowbagger]

Oh, I get it: Anyone who is overweight and grouchy must be like Sylvia Browne! Wow! Who knew "lack of scruples" would be the inevitable emergent behavior of such personality properties?!!!!

</sarcasm>

[RSLancastr]

O'Hair was intelligent.

[LibraryLady]

Last week while watching Tv I was reminded of Madalyn Murray O'Hair. She was well known for her nastiness, foul language and distaste for anyone who didn't believe in her cause. I couldn't help but think that Sylvia Browne had a lot of similarities to this woman.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair didn't care about her behaviour on screen where as Sylvia Browne (even though she fails miserably) wants the general public to believe she's caring and compassionate. We all know how vile Sylvia Browne is in the real world and I just wondered if anyone else thought the same?

Oh, I get it: Anyone who is overwieght and grouchy must be like Sylvia Browne! Wow! Who knew "lack of scruples" would be the inevitable emergent behavior of such personality properties?!!!!

</sarcasm>


I don't think that's what Dustbunny is saying.

[imjohn]

he honorary side of Madalyn Murray O'Hair deserves some admiration, it's just her approach to it that didn't sit well with a lot of people..

There are times when politeness doesn't work.

[dustbunny]

I don't think that's what Dustbunny is saying.

Thanks LibraryLady, it was just something that crossed my mind. It's their behaviour that I wondered about not their similarities in looks and physical description. It was their personal conducts that struck me as being alike.

[RSLancastr]

I don't think that's what Dustbunny is saying.And even if it was what she was saying, there was no need for sarcasm. It was just a simple question.

[dustbunny]

Thanks Robert, it really is just a thread about peoples opinions on their behaviours. I didn't create the thread to start an argument. What better place to ask something than on here. I appreciate the support.

[LibraryLady]

I think it's hard to judge people without taking their behavior into consideration. Would O'Hair have had a wider influence had she been polite and conciliatory? Or would she have had no influence at all if she hadn't been as assertive? We'll never know. I do remember my mother watching her on TV and commenting, "I agree with everything she's saying, but I'm embarrassed to say so. She's so nasty!"

Would Browne have more credibility if she had a genuinely caring attitude, instead of her mean, grasping true persona? Jeanne Dixon had a much softer approach, but I think less influence. That might be because of the difference in media access, though.

If someone is right, but alienates all who agrees by his nasty comments or aggressive behaviors, how does that affect his audience? Good question!

[dustbunny]

I think it's hard to judge people without taking their behavior into consideration. Would O'Hair have had a wider influence had she been polite and conciliatory? Or would she have had no influence at all if she hadn't been as assertive? We'll never know. I do remember my mother watching her on TV and commenting, "I agree with everything she's saying, but I'm embarrassed to say so. She's so nasty!"

Would Browne have more credibility if she had a genuinely caring attitude, instead of her mean, grasping true persona? Jeanne Dixon had a much softer approach, but I think less influence. That might be because of the difference in media access, though.

If someone is right, but alienates all who agrees by his nasty comments or aggressive behaviors, how does that affect his audience? Good question!

Good point but a very tricky one at the same time. It's like my husband who's a driving instructor. He's very mellow and calm to the extreme sometimes. His attitude puts pupils at ease but if he was aggressive and brash he would inevitably scare them away.

On the other hand, if say a person was in a managerial job or even above that on the corporate ladder for eg, they would have to assert authority in a more aggressive and pushy way. It's a case of balance and how much an individual cares about the people they directly affect.

I'm going to ponder a bit more on this one. It's a case of never knowing how different it could have been because you can't turn back time. Interesting.

[CFLarsen]

Would Browne have more credibility if she had a genuinely caring attitude, instead of her mean, grasping true persona?

Pointless hypothetical.

Sylvia Browne would have to be human first. She doesn't qualify.

[LibraryLady]

Pointless hypothetical.

Sylvia Browne would have to be human first. She doesn't qualify.

I take it this is hyperbole. Oddly enough, I've heard similar comments about Madelyn Murray O'Hair. So we've still got a comparison going.

[Wowbagger]

I don't think that's what Dustbunny is saying.Well, no, I guess not. He was only making useless comparisons, and asked us if we thought the two were "similar".

[CFLarsen]

I take it this is hyperbole.

I have...experienced...Sylvia, up close and personal. (http://stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/ispeakwithbrowne.shtml)

No hyperbole, sad to say.

[Minarvia]

I think this is a great thread, DustBunny. I can't help but recall that on some program or other that people who knew Madlyn well said she was very caring and not truly as awful as she came across.
I think it was RSL who said at one point, (please correct me if I'm wrong, Robert) that after you opened your Sylvia site and had to deal with people completely opposed to you that you realized that Randi is actually a saint for putting up with what he has for decades. I think Madlyn got to the point where she was past caring about manners and so sick of being treated as some sort of "devil" that she decided to just give as good as she got.

At least that's my hypothesis.

[imjohn]

I think that the death threats that O'Hair received may have had something to do with how she acted. Most of us have no real conception of how ugly things get when an agnostic or atheist stands against the religious.

People lose their jobs, receive threats, are assaulted. When you dare to take a public stance against religion you have a lot of enemies -- some very dangerous.

[moon1969]

Yes they are if they make alot of money from fooling people.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

O'Hair was intelligent.

I know you're being pithy but I wouldn't exactly call SB unintelligent. Uneducated, ignorant, obnoxious? Yes. Inarticulate and limited verbally and intellectually? Yes. Silly? Yes, at times. A "hillbilly" or "redneck"? Yes, at times. Oblivious? Yes. Displaying a lack of refinement, manners and intellectual curiosity? Yes. Stupid? No.

She's certainly shrewd enough. :(

I'd say the same for O'Hair. She came off as an unpleasant boor but she was plenty smart enough at what she did- and smart enough in general.

[Mick Houlahan]

As O'Hair has vanished and Browne can still be found, I'd say they're not similar enough.


Is that mean? :D

[SezMe]

One must consider the times that O'Hair was a public figure. It was in the Cold War and those evil atheistic commies were out to take over our country. You had to be really brave just to admit you were an atheist much less take hugely unpopular public stands for her cause.

And she was a woman, stepping out of the tight cultural roles prescribed for women of the time. And she was not the nicest, well-built lady on top of it all.

She had to have enormous brass ovaries to do what she did. I subscribe to the thesis that only a hard-boiled, nasty bitch could have done what she did. And I say that in a seriously respectful way. Nice would have been swallowed up and spit out.

Now, how 'bout Browne. What hardships did she face? How many murder threats did she endure. Was her environment more open to alternative roles for women? And so on. I see no characteristics or struggles that Browne had to overcome to get where she is.

So my assessment for O'Hair is as high as my assessment for Browne is low.

[RSLancastr]

IShe's certainly shrewd enough. :(Being a shrewd con artist does not necessarily equate to intelligence.

[UnrepentantSinner]

There are times when politeness doesn't work.

Good to know MLKs legacy has given way to "by any means necessary".

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Being a shrewd con artist does not necessarily equate to intelligence.

I agree but I'd be willing to bet that Sylvia Browne is of perfectly normal intelligence. She doesn't seem stupid so much as boorish and uncouth.

Whatever else you may say about him, John Edward doesn't seem particularly unintelligent, either. Nor does Kevin Trudeau, Uri Geller, Rosemary Altea or any other high profile fraudster that comes to mind.

[CFLarsen]

I agree but I'd be willing to bet that Sylvia Browne is of perfectly normal intelligence. She doesn't seem stupid so much as boorish and uncouth.

Whatever else you may say about him, John Edward doesn't seem particularly unintelligent, either. Nor does Kevin Trudeau, Uri Geller, Rosemary Altea or any other high profile fraudster that comes to mind.

There is a difference between being smart and being intelligent. That's the rub.

Although I think "cunning" is more suited to describe Sylvia than "smart".

[JoeEllison]

I agree but I'd be willing to bet that Sylvia Browne is of perfectly normal intelligence. She doesn't seem stupid so much as boorish and uncouth.

Whatever else you may say about him, John Edward doesn't seem particularly unintelligent, either. Nor does Kevin Trudeau, Uri Geller, Rosemary Altea or any other high profile fraudster that comes to mind.

Maybe they just seem unintelligent compared to us smart folks? :p Seriously, I think they seem foolish because they don't come anywhere close to fooling us and we can see ways that their scam could easily be improved. They may not be particularly unintelligent, but they only appear particularly intelligent when compared to their victims.

[dustbunny]

I think this is a great thread, DustBunny. I can't help but recall that on some program or other that people who knew Madlyn well said she was very caring and not truly as awful as she came across.
I think it was RSL who said at one point, (please correct me if I'm wrong, Robert) that after you opened your Sylvia site and had to deal with people completely opposed to you that you realized that Randi is actually a saint for putting up with what he has for decades. I think Madlyn got to the point where she was past caring about manners and so sick of being treated as some sort of "devil" that she decided to just give as good as she got.

At least that's my hypothesis.

Thanks Minarvia, that little insight about Madalyn has helped. It's easy to forget how a person can be very different away from the cameras. Her public conduct stood out from the rest and the gentler side of her gets forgotten.

Am I right in believing that one of her sons turned against the atheist cause to become a christian? Again I can only go on what I've read or seen on Tv but didn't Madalyn disown him for this. I'm sure her son once made a short video for Tv explaining his converting to christianity.

Peoples attitudes and behaviour can either have the power to help in a cause or hinder it. I suppose it depends on what the cause is. It's not nice to be harassed and badgered when all you're doing is what you feel is right. The simplest of things can turn ugly, we all have breaking points.

[LibraryLady]

That was Bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Murray), the boy who's complaints about praying in school triggered the entire event. He is now a minister.

He was in my brother's year at school, though not in the same class.

[dustbunny]

That was [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Murray}Bill[/url], the boy who's complaints about praying in school triggered the entire event. He is now a minister.

He was in my brother's year at school, though not in the same class.

Hi, I can't get the link to work from your quote. Do you know any others I can try? Thanks.

[LibraryLady]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Murray

Try it straight, since I screwed up the link. Sorry.

[dustbunny]

Phew! I was right. :D He's certainly had his struggles in life. The biggest shame of all is the breakdown of his relationship with his mother because of his new founded beliefs. It must have taken a lot of courage for him to walk away. Standing against the way you've been taught and raised is one of the hardest things to do. Thanks LibraryLady.

[geni]

Phew! I was right. :D He's certainly had his struggles in life. The biggest shame of all is the breakdown of his relationship with his mother because of his new founded beliefs. It must have taken a lot of courage for him to walk away. Standing against the way you've been taught and raised is one of the hardest things to do. Thanks LibraryLady.

If his description of his mother is accurate then yes she has a fair amount in common with sylvia.

http://www.rfcnet.org/news/default.asp?action=detail&article=144

So how close is the description to reality? Hard to say most of it would not leave much in the way of public records. I would expect someone to remember an attempt to use fake stock certificates but it would have been a fair few years ago. Tax issues would be unlikely to show up unless there had been an actual investigation.

So how reliable is William J. Murray? He probably hates his mother but would he have any insentive to make anything up? Her public persona would be enough to justify his dislike to his asociates. On the other hand he would probably gain from talking her down futher. That said given his conversion he probably takes his religion fairly seriously so the false witness thing might kick in.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

O' Hair and her son's and granddaughter's murders were made into an episode of "Murder by the Book" and her son William agreed to be interviewed and said that he was in some contact with his family and was concerned and involved enough to have called the police when he realized that they had gone missing.

He didn't seem bitter about his family and glossed over their falling out and his conversion and career as a minister. He had mostly good or neutral things to say about his mother.

Of course, that could simply be respect for the dead. Or just the realization that a Court TV episode isn't the forum for an airing of a family squabble.

[dustbunny]

If his description of his mother is accurate then yes she has a fair amount in common with sylvia.

http://www.rfcnet.org/news/default.asp?action=detail&article=144

So how close is the description to reality? Hard to say most of it would not leave much in the way of public records. I would expect someone to remember an attempt to use fake stock certificates but it would have been a fair few years ago. Tax issues would be unlikely to show up unless there had been an actual investigation.

So how reliable is William J. Murray? He probably hates his mother but would he have any insentive to make anything up? Her public persona would be enough to justify his dislike to his asociates. On the other hand he would probably gain from talking her down futher. That said given his conversion he probably takes his religion fairly seriously so the false witness thing might kick in.

From my perspective that was a pretty powerful read. Sometimes we forget about the children and how they are affected or scarred for the rest of their lives for whatever reason. I too felt from reading this that he takes his religion very seriously. Maybe I'm wrong but the article appeared to come from the heart. After reading his previous struggles in life I believe his faith is what has kept him stronger to this day.

[dustbunny]

O' Hair and her son's and granddaughter's murders were made into an episode of "Murder by the Book" and her son William agreed to be interviewed and said that he was in some contact with his family and was concerned and involved enough to have called the police when he realized that they had gone missing.

He didn't seem bitter about his family and glossed over their falling out and his conversion and career as a minister. He had mostly good or neutral things to say about his mother.

Of course, that could simply be respect for the dead. Or just the realization that a Court TV episode isn't the forum for an airing of a family squabble.

Whenever I've seen him on Tv I never got that feeling of him performing for the cameras. William genuinely comes across as compassionate and sincere. I think his sadness is real. I'd hate to be proved wrong on that one.

Sylvia Brownes sons are a credit to her evilness, lies and deceptions. Before I read SSB I only knew that Chris Dufresne was involved in her world. Sometimes as you know, children want no part of their parents lifestyles, similar to William. I was sickened when I read the freaks come out at night article.

The little hope I had left that one of her sons has woken up to his mothers corrupt industry vanished. Nature versus nurture, I know which one I believe. There isn't even a remote possibillity that either of her sons will see the light of day and do the right thing. She's manipulated her children the same as the grieving and desperate people who have trusted her and given their blind loyalty to her teachings. But no matter what, these two grown men had a choice. They chose the money and lavish lifestyle that accompanies wealth. They are no better and should suffer the same consequences as their mother.

[Minarvia]

Sylvia Brownes sons are a credit to her evilness, lies and deceptions. Before I read SSB I only knew that Chris Dufresne was involved in her world. Sometimes as you know, children want no part of their parents lifestyles, similar to William. I was sickened when I read the freaks come out at night article.

The little hope I had left that one of her sons has woken up to his mothers corrupt industry vanished. Nature versus nurture, I know which one I believe. There isn't even a remote possibillity that either of her sons will see the light of day and do the right thing. She's manipulated her children the same as the grieving and desperate people who have trusted her and given their blind loyalty to her teachings. But no matter what, these two grown men had a choice. They chose the money and lavish lifestyle that accompanies wealth. They are no better and should suffer the same consequences as their mother.


Agreed. Especially when one of Rob's articles pointed out that they told Sylvia to keep pushing so that they would never have to work the rest of their lives. That also keeps me wondering when little Angelia will be dragged into this as Sylvia's "reincarnated Grandma Ada who is the most psychic of all of us." Bleh. Now THAT little girl probably won't have a chance. :mad:

As for O'Hair's son William, I honestly don't know much about him. From some program I saw, perhaps the "Murder by the Book" one, he came across to me as pompous and spiteful. Not that I would necessarily blame him. Maybe he is genuinely compassionate. But to be fair, when he mother went missing, if he didn't act concerned it certainly wouldn't look very "christian" of him.
I would hate to think that he is that hateful, tho. Maybe he has come to terms with his past and his own feelings and is a genuinely decent guy. I truly hope so.

I wish I could remember the people who pointed out the very caring and private side to Madlyn. I just don't remember. But like you said, DustBunny, sometimes it is so easy to just see the public side of someone and think that is all there is to them. That is seldom the case. As for Sylvia Browne...I'd probably disagree. She's a pretty shallow pool, methinks!

[imjohn]

Good to know MLKs legacy has given way to "by any means necessary".
That's not what I said.

Not being polite does not equal any means necessary.

[dustbunny]

Agreed. Especially when one of Rob's articles pointed out that they told Sylvia to keep pushing so that they would never have to work the rest of their lives. That also keeps me wondering when little Angelia will be dragged into this as Sylvia's "reincarnated Grandma Ada who is the most psychic of all of us." Bleh. Now THAT little girl probably won't have a chance. :mad:

As for O'Hair's son William, I honestly don't know much about him. From some program I saw, perhaps the "Murder by the Book" one, he came across to me as pompous and spiteful. Not that I would necessarily blame him. Maybe he is genuinely compassionate. But to be fair, when he mother went missing, if he didn't act concerned it certainly wouldn't look very "christian" of him.
I would hate to think that he is that hateful, tho. Maybe he has come to terms with his past and his own feelings and is a genuinely decent guy. I truly hope so.

I wish I could remember the people who pointed out the very caring and private side to Madlyn. I just don't remember. But like you said, DustBunny, sometimes it is so easy to just see the public side of someone and think that is all there is to them. That is seldom the case. As for Sylvia Browne...I'd probably disagree. She's a pretty shallow pool, methinks!

It's one of those traumatic situations in life that most of us would dread being in. Parents have such an impact on their childrens lives and sadly in the negative way too. I've had a few strained family relationships and unfortunately still do. I've carried a lot of mental baggage around with me sometimes and to this day I look at certain family members and remember them standing by and watching my situation. In their own way they would tell me to put up with it but if the tables were turned the story would be very different. Don't get me wrong my upbringing was nothing compared to some poor people who go through unimaginable pain because of someone elses actions. I wonder if William felt the same until he grew old enough to make up his own mind in life.

Thanks for the granddaughters name Minarvia. I've thoroughly enjoyed SSB but I must have overlooked it. I knew SB had mentioned Angelia's psychic gift. She likes to keep her scam going through the generations. Like you say she probably doesn't stand a chance. SB's sons mirror their mother so why not keep it in the family. Yuck! SB's pool is so shallow you wouldn't be able to get your big toe wet. Of course I'm more of your big blue ocean (debatable according to my husband, as if he'd know! :newlol )

[godless dave]

O'Hair never swindled anyone out of their money. That would be the major difference.

[geni]

O'Hair never swindled anyone out of their money. That would be the major difference.

Her son claims otherwise:

http://www.rfcnet.org/news/default.asp?action=detail&article=144

[godless dave]

One person claims O'Hair swindled people. None of the alleged victims have said anything.

For Browne, we have many more people reporting her misdeeds.

[luchog]

If someone is right, but alienates all who agrees by his nasty comments or aggressive behaviors, how does that affect his audience? Good question!
I would think that yes, she would have had a much greater effect had she been less obnoxious and dismissive of her opponents, and more tactful in presenting her arguments. Whether one agrees with her or not, it's hard to dismiss the fact that she was just as much a fanatic as many of the religious nutjobs she fought. It was rare that she would "win over" people; more often than not she was simply preaching to the choir. That's not always a bad thing, particularly when one seeks to motivate and inspire like-minded people; but ultimately it does little to win converts to the cause.

[dustbunny]

Personally I've found that no matter what you believe in whether it's god or atheism you need a welcoming approach to others. As a sceptic I obviously talk to people who genuinely believe in psychics, etc. Sometimes it's hard but if I refused to listen to them or tried to thrust my opinions at them the conversation would go nowhere. I've peak a few interests over the last few months just by discussing the sceptical side in a calm manner. The right approach wins the day for me.

[geni]

One person claims O'Hair swindled people.

That would be her son who is in a position to know.


None of the alleged victims have said anything.


Have they been asked?


For Browne, we have many more people reporting her misdeeds.

Other than the gold fraud thing we didn't really until RSL started digging.

[dustbunny]

Other than the gold fraud thing we didn't really until RSL started digging.

Good point. It's easy to forget how much RSL has revealed about Sylvia Browne. This is why his work and others has become so important. Without it it's like the tip of a very large iceberg.