Is there anyone else who feels like this

[imjohn]

There are times when someone posts something here: holocaust denial, bigfootery, psychic phenomena, etc. when I just can't muster the energy to answer.

When I see someone post something that is just ignorant I feel that I should answer but I'm tired of answering the same bs. In one thread a bigfoot fan was attacking the skeptics because the bigfoot fan was denying that Native Americans used forest fire as an agricultural tool. Do these people even bother to do any sort of reading outside their "field of study?"

I see this a lot and I almost don't see the point of answering. The willful ignorance is staggering.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Holocaust denial I don't deal with well and I rarely if ever hit the CT subforum. Creationism is easy for me since I've heard just about every argument they have and can respond pretty much by rote. Most of the paranormal stuff I know is hokum*, but I think it deserves a response and several nights a week at work I listen to Coast to Coast AM so I keep up with what's hot with the woos.

Your position is understandable though because many people here, skeptics and believers alike will engage in ad nauseum arguments and I don't have the mental energy to go back and forth again and again and again...

*And what I don't know is hokum, I think is.

[Michelle Lyon]

I ignore them most of the time. I've read a few and they come across to me as not really seeking information, but as more interested in picking arguments.

[David Wong]

Most people who take the time to answer some absured or ugly assertion aren't doing it to convince the poster (holocaust deniers won't be convinced by logic, because logic didn't lead them there in the first place). No, they answer for the benefit of the lurkers and other readers who may otherwise think there is something to the arguments if left unanswered.

[rjh01]

Me, I just ignore the long, fast growing threads. If I have a subscription for any and 50 posts are made overnight, then it is very likely I will unsubscribe to it.

[Kittyclaws]

How do you respond when it's people you like/love who believe the woo? I have a very dear friend who swears by chiro, chinese herbs, acupuncture, and (shudder) kinoki foot pads. It's almost gotten to the point where it's no fun even to just have a drink together as she'll get started on something and I end up biting my tongue to be polite.

There is a bit of contrariness, though, as she'll use science-based medicine for hormone replacement therapy and hypothyroid issues but relies on quackery for back pain or sports-related injury. I mean, WTF?!

[Skeptic Ginger]

@ the OP: That's why it helps to have a whole forum community. I get tired especially after just going through some lengthy discussion only to have someone join the thread 10 pages in and start on the crap that was covered on page one. But someone else usually fills in.

[Skeptic Ginger]

How do you respond when it's people you like/love who believe the woo? I have a very dear friend who swears by chiro, chinese herbs, acupuncture, and (shudder) kinoki foot pads. It's almost gotten to the point where it's no fun even to just have a drink together as she'll get started on something and I end up biting my tongue to be polite.

There is a bit of contrariness, though, as she'll use science-based medicine for hormone replacement therapy and hypothyroid issues but relies on quackery for back pain or sports-related injury. I mean, WTF?!I have some wonderful friends who are absolutely convinced 911 was an inside job. Worse, they are often working to convince some of our other friends. I have let them know the evidence isn't there. But I met them half way because I do believe as Richard Clarke wrote in his book that Bush et al used the event as an excuse to invade Iraq and that they were at a minimum incompetent in the months leading up to the attack.

It's given us at least a point of agreement within the disagreement. With the chiropractic care, even though I am completely against their woo personally, I let my friends know that for some chronic back pain, the evidence based medical interventions don't typically fare any better (which is true). In other words, placebo is working for most of the treatments for chronic back pain.

When it comes to nudging my chiropractor going friends in the right direction, however, I bring up the initial founding nonsense the whole shebang is based on. Not many people are aware of the absolute quackery that chiropractic care was made from. And I mention the dangers of neck manipulation. Is it really worth the risk of a vertebral artery rupture and permanent quadriplegia?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Most people who take the time to answer some absured or ugly assertion aren't doing it to convince the poster (holocaust deniers won't be convinced by logic, because logic didn't lead them there in the first place). No, they answer for the benefit of the lurkers and other readers who may otherwise think there is something to the arguments if left unanswered.Definitely. I often get PMs from people attesting to that very thing.

And, arguing often fine tunes one's thoughts and arguments on these matters.

[Kittyclaws]

I've requested "The Reason for God" from the library for that reason: if I want to answer the arguments, I have to know what's coming.

But I buy books by scientists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Victor Stenger.

[tapman]

There are times when someone posts something here: holocaust denial, bigfootery, psychic phenomena, etc. when I just can't muster the energy to answer.

When I see someone post something that is just ignorant I feel that I should answer but I'm tired of answering the same bs. In one thread a bigfoot fan was attacking the skeptics because the bigfoot fan was denying that Native Americans used forest fire as an agricultural tool. Do these people even bother to do any sort of reading outside their "field of study?"

I see this a lot and I almost don't see the point of answering. The willful ignorance is staggering.


What I find more disturbing is the projection going on here.

[Ashles]

What I find more disturbing is the projection going on here.
Thank you for reinforcing the OP.

[tapman]

Thank you for reinforcing the OP.

I know you are trying to make a point, aren't you?

Your buddy, tapman

[Ashles]

I know you are trying to make a point, aren't you?
I didn't realise I would have to spell it out quite this clearly... but okay then.
Imjohn was talking about wilful ignorance and answering the same bs over and over.

Then along you come (which in itself is a wonderful example) and create an almost entirely content free post talking about projection - which isn't even an appropriate concept relative to the OP. What is anyone else 'projecting'?

And having to explain my point in detail to you is ironically even further now confiroming the OP.

If you ask for yet further clarification in this thread we may have to develop a new, stonger word for irony.

[dustbunny]

I've found that if a thread doesn't peak my interest enough I tend to leave it alone. We're all different and I respect that. I'm not immune to asking seemingly ignorant questions or making uninteresting statements. If I'm wrong I don't mind being corrected in the right way. It isn't intentional but I do learn from it. Some threads I've created are simply to ask how others feel. There's no intended argument just an interest in others opinions. Ignoring anything that could cause a debate or feels like a personal comment about my own thoughts and feelings is the best way for me.

[Autolite]

Your position is understandable though because many people here, skeptics and believers alike will engage in ad nauseum arguments and I don't have the mental energy to go back and forth again and again and again...

I feel pretty much the same way. There are only a few subjects that I care to talk about and I really only post for my own entertainment, just to see if anyone has found a new angle to the same old arguments. I've argued enough over the years to know that you're not going to change anyone's mind, and even if you did, it is highly unlikely that they will acknowledge it on a public forum.

So I would say engage in these discussions just for your own amusement and don't worry about trying to accomplish anything. Just roll with it... :)

[Ron_Tomkins]

I was gonna reply to this thread but then felt too tired of replying the same crap. :)

[imjohn]

:)

[imjohn]

How do you respond when it's people you like/love who believe the woo? I have a very dear friend who swears by chiro, chinese herbs, acupuncture, and (shudder) kinoki foot pads. It's almost gotten to the point where it's no fun even to just have a drink together as she'll get started on something and I end up biting my tongue to be polite.

There is a bit of contrariness, though, as she'll use science-based medicine for hormone replacement therapy and hypothyroid issues but relies on quackery for back pain or sports-related injury. I mean, WTF?!
I ignore my friends woo beliefs -- and I have some friends with very, very woo beliefs.

I try to keep the converations mundane :)

[Miss_Kitt]

In re: Friends who have woo beliefs -- I went through a sad awakening process with some friends on this. The "Mommy Group" had been faithfully gathering, letting our kids play, and supporting each other through thick and thin since our kids were 2 months old...and then, when they got into school and we started to have time to focus on stuff NOT child-related, I discovered that all but one of them are Woo City.

And, as another poster also mourned, the chief believer in everything-but-evidence cannot go through two cups of coffee without talking about the wonderful new Healing Sensitive she's seeing for her health problems. Further, while they respect each others' BS in the name of Diversity, my statements such as, "That has never been shown to work in any scientific studies," were immediately attacked. It's like religious people who are tolerant of other religions, but not of atheism. In fact, that was another icky discussion: I mentioned that as an atheist I was not sending my daughter to Sunday school, and one mom immediately said, "I hope you'll at least let her make up her own mind!" When I answered that I was more than happy to let her attend any church and read up on religions when she was older, they immediately began condemning me for "biasing her" by NOT sending her to be indoctrinated. They truly don't see this as a double standard.

I found a great answer: I joined JREF. I went to TAM. I started contacting skeptic-type groups in the Seattle area. And I made new friends that I *don't* have to constantly bite my tongue around. Life is better now.

[AndyD]

And, as another poster also mourned, the chief believer in everything-but-evidence cannot go through two cups of coffee without talking about the wonderful new Healing Sensitive she's seeing for her health problems.

I made a similar point in my article "what is it about astrology? (http://thinkingisreal.blogspot.com/2008/07/what-is-it-about-astrology.html)" I've worked with lots of people who state outright their disbelief in God yet they "have to know" everyone's star sign and get frustrated if you don't play along.

I think that the way to handle friends differs on a per friend basis. I've known people with beliefs who don't preach yet are happy to discuss and debate their belief with no ill-feeling or lasting effects. Others strike me as the kind who would be offended by any challenge so I avoid challenging if they avoid preaching.

A forum like this is a different case though - people come here to discuss so I don't avoid it out of any sense of possible offence but I do ignore a lot of topics where I just can't be bothered.

[Mashuna]

In re: Friends who have woo beliefs -- I went through a sad awakening process with some friends on this. The "Mommy Group" had been faithfully gathering, letting our kids play, and supporting each other through thick and thin since our kids were 2 months old...and then, when they got into school and we started to have time to focus on stuff NOT child-related, I discovered that all but one of them are Woo City.

And, as another poster also mourned, the chief believer in everything-but-evidence cannot go through two cups of coffee without talking about the wonderful new Healing Sensitive she's seeing for her health problems. Further, while they respect each others' BS in the name of Diversity, my statements such as, "That has never been shown to work in any scientific studies," were immediately attacked. It's like religious people who are tolerant of other religions, but not of atheism. In fact, that was another icky discussion: I mentioned that as an atheist I was not sending my daughter to Sunday school, and one mom immediately said, "I hope you'll at least let her make up her own mind!" When I answered that I was more than happy to let her attend any church and read up on religions when she was older, they immediately began condemning me for "biasing her" by NOT sending her to be indoctrinated. They truly don't see this as a double standard.

I found a great answer: I joined JREF. I went to TAM. I started contacting skeptic-type groups in the Seattle area. And I made new friends that I *don't* have to constantly bite my tongue around. Life is better now.


Sounds painful. I'm glad things are working out better for you now.

[Cuddles]

There are times when someone posts something here: holocaust denial, bigfootery, psychic phenomena, etc. when I just can't muster the energy to answer.

When I see someone post something that is just ignorant I feel that I should answer but I'm tired of answering the same bs. In one thread a bigfoot fan was attacking the skeptics because the bigfoot fan was denying that Native Americans used forest fire as an agricultural tool. Do these people even bother to do any sort of reading outside their "field of study?"

I see this a lot and I almost don't see the point of answering. The willful ignorance is staggering.

I suspect you'll feel like this more and more, the longer you stay here. When I first came here I used to post almost exclusively in the skepticism, science and conspiracy forums. A lot of it was new and even the obviously silly and just plain stupid ideas and arguments were at least interesting. However, you soon come to realise that there really isn't anything new. Ever. Homeopaths are still making exactly the same excuses and citing exactly the same discredited studies. Psychics are still failing to predict anything. 9/11 nuts are still ignoring the same evidence they always have. Creationists are still stuck in the middle ages.

Woos love to complain about scientists not having imaginations, but the exact opposite is true. Woos seldom come up with anything that even looks new. Even reshaping old arguments to look slightly different would be better than simply repeating the same nonsense over and over and over and over and over... When it comes down to it, this is why new woos often get the impression that everyone is attacking them - it's simply that the skeptics are all bored and desperately hoping that the new person actually has something interesting to say.

I used to read almost every new thread in these sections. Now I rarely even bother with half of them. As you say, I just can't muster the energy to bother with yet more repeats of the same boring, wilful ignorance.

[TiaH]

How do you respond when it's people you like/love who believe the woo? I have a very dear friend who swears by chiro, chinese herbs, acupuncture, and (shudder) kinoki foot pads. It's almost gotten to the point where it's no fun even to just have a drink together as she'll get started on something and I end up biting my tongue to be polite.

There is a bit of contrariness, though, as she'll use science-based medicine for hormone replacement therapy and hypothyroid issues but relies on quackery for back pain or sports-related injury. I mean, WTF?!

Sometimes I'm polite and sometimes I just go off! I have a friend who thinks she's psychic. I tell her I'll believe it when she gives me the winning lotto numbers. Remember, you never see the headline "Psychic wins Lottery!"

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Most people who take the time to answer some absured or ugly assertion aren't doing it to convince the poster (holocaust deniers won't be convinced by logic, because logic didn't lead them there in the first place). No, they answer for the benefit of the lurkers and other readers who may otherwise think there is something to the arguments if left unanswered.

Pretty much my reasoning too.

[Lilith]

(snip)..and then, when they got into school and we started to have time to focus on stuff NOT child-related, I discovered that all but one of them are Woo City.

And, as another poster also mourned, the chief believer in everything-but-evidence cannot go through two cups of coffee without talking about the wonderful new Healing Sensitive she's seeing for her health problems. (snip)

I know what you mean, MK. My co-workers, fiance, and many close friends and most of my relatives are either religious and/or have some woo-beliefs, and they can not understand why I don't. So far I've been able to have civil discourse with folks about it all, and I like it when someone actually express curiosity about my atheism and such. BUT I usually feel like I'm walking a tightrope with trying to not offend them, while also trying to not deny my lack of beliefs and my desire to make them think about their magical thinking.

[shadron]

There are times when someone posts something here: holocaust denial, bigfootery, psychic phenomena, etc. when I just can't muster the energy to answer.

A 143 posts in 10 months you feel burned out? Maaaaaannnnnn........!

[Aussie Thinker]

I pretty much agree with the OP.. I do struggle these days to muster any interest in combating woo online.

I used to be a lot more passionate, but you can only bang your head against wall so often.

The simple thing is “the big picture” 1000’s of years of these claims have produced NOTHING.. and I don’t think this stuff is BS anymore I KNOW it .. I think I have devolved into a cynic now.. sadly !

On the other hand I have personally had a lot of success on the “friends who believe in woo” front. Even the worst of them now have a healthy dose of scepticism. The reason I am successful is (I think).. on a face to face basis I give their beliefs a LOT of time (falsely of course). Then I keep asking them about the beliefs.. and throwing in a lot of.. oh yeah that’s great but did you know (present some facts).. that clairvoyant should go and grab an easy $ 1m.. did you note all the OTHER things the clairvoyant said, how accurate wasit?.. etc etc.. In the end you can see the lights start to go on.. I must add these friends are reasonably clever to begin with !

[Limbo]

I see this a lot and I almost don't see the point of answering. The willful ignorance is staggering.


I feel the same way...but about fundamentalists. Both the atheist and the religious types.

[kswarthog]

There are times when someone posts something here: holocaust denial, bigfootery, psychic phenomena, etc. when I just can't muster the energy to answer.

When I see someone post something that is just ignorant I feel that I should answer but I'm tired of answering the same bs. In one thread a bigfoot fan was attacking the skeptics because the bigfoot fan was denying that Native Americans used forest fire as an agricultural tool. Do these people even bother to do any sort of reading outside their "field of study?"

I see this a lot and I almost don't see the point of answering. The willful ignorance is staggering.


Because, most of the time you feel you're wasting your breath. They're going to stay with same old tired arguments, regardless of whether they're right or not. "I don't need proof. I just believe and anyone who says differently is going to hell. You should believe it too." It's like the endless stream of urban legend type emails I get all the time. I've lost count of the number of times I've gotten the "Mars is going to be close enough to Earth to appear as large as the moon in the night sky" email from my mother-in-law. I've steered her to several websites to show her that it's not true. Yet she'll go out on the night in question to look at Mars, just in case it happens to be parked on her doorstep. I've finally quit trying to debunk all the bogus emails I've gotten. They don't want to know the truth. Lies are so much more fun to believe in.

Santa Claus

[rjh01]

Remember this is a long term battle that started in the 1400s when they discovered that the answers were not in the ancient texts, because they contained many errors, but had to be found first hand. The battle will go on for a few hundred years more.

[Twiler]

I think it's probably best to make a polite attempt at making people see reason when this sort of thing comes up, but not push it too far. Personally, I've found that I tend to resist a change in my viewpoint when I'm actually having an argument, but I'm likely to shift my position after calming down and thinking it over.

On the other hand, we can't just give in. Social stupidity is the sum of each individual's stupidity.