One of my best friends is a Tarot reader

[lionking]

...and she is coming around in two days time for dinner with her cards. One of my daughters is leaving home (at 19 and not for good reasons, but that is beside the point) and Liz wants to send her off with a farewell reading.

I detest the whole thing, and it is happening in my house, but she is a friend and my characteristic reaction to this sort of crap will just destroy the whole farewell evening. Yet another example of where skepticism can cause major family conflicts.

I just hope that Amy's common sense will come to the fore.

[Delvo]

What does your daughter say about it?

[Ashles]

Can you not just ask her beforehand if she could not do a reading? As a friend?

Why wouldn't your friend respect your wishes on a subject like this, especially on a night that is so important to you?

Actually I think I misread the OP - is it your partner who is instigating the reading? If so then, yeah, that's a toughie.
Having a partner into these things when you are not is always difficult.

It sounds like someone is going to have to be the bigger person and swallow what they personally believe in order to allow a peaceful evening for the most important person, your daughter.
And in my experience that role usually ends up having to be taken by the skeptic. :(

[TheDaver]

Set up a camera to record the whole thing, sit back and relax.

Sometime in the future, you can reflect together on just how silly and worthless the reading was.

[AndyD]

I think this is an interesting question in general. As someone who's just started skeptical blogging, I am careful not to advertise that fact to anyone (who knows me) outside my immediate family for fear of creating tensions. It's odd that if I were a church-goer, I'd have no such reservation and would probably happily perform bible class and other church duties.

In your case, I can only see allowing it and treating it as a party trick as the easiest way to deal with it.

I often wonder how well-known skeptics and "devout" atheists deal with family and friends who hold beliefs? I can only assume compromise is always the answer. Has it been discussed here before?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

<snippers>

I often wonder how well-known skeptics and "devout" atheists deal with family and friends who hold beliefs? I can only assume compromise is always the answer. Has it been discussed here before?

Funnily enough the ouji board came up in conversation at a party with friends, relatives and assorted hangers on at my house yesterday. I poopooed the whole idea ("It's evil," someone said). Suggested the Ideomotor effect, that is all in their heads, etc. May not have convinced the believers but may have had some inflence on the lurkers. :D

As a general rule (as most of my wife's friends are Christians to varying degrees) I don't "talk religion". However, if it does come up in conversation, I make it clear that I am a BAAWA. However, circumstances can play a part, and as I did not tell my hosts in Little Rock in 1977 that my wife is a "black" Jamaican, I sometimes will keep my mouth shut.

Don't forget TWIAVBP (in Canada being an Atheist is almost socially acceptable) and YMMV.

[dustbunny]

...and she is coming around in two days time for dinner with her cards. One of my daughters is leaving home (at 19 and not for good reasons, but that is beside the point) and Liz wants to send her off with a farewell reading.

I detest the whole thing, and it is happening in my house, but she is a friend and my characteristic reaction to this sort of crap will just destroy the whole farewell evening. Yet another example of where skepticism can cause major family conflicts.

I just hope that Amy's common sense will come to the fore.

I'm in the middle of a debate concerning my sister and a psychic she went to see on Monday. I think you'll be okay, you're daughter sounds too sensible to take much notice and given it's a farewell evening whatever you're friend says will go in one ear and out of the other. I really do know how you feel.

All the best and enjoy your evening.

[kerikiwi]

Why should the onus be on the skeptic to not cause major family conflicts?
I would lay the blame squarely on those who intrude with their nonsense and destroy the whole farewell evening.

[Jackalgirl]

...and she is coming around in two days time for dinner with her cards. One of my daughters is leaving home (at 19 and not for good reasons, but that is beside the point) and Liz wants to send her off with a farewell reading.

I detest the whole thing, and it is happening in my house, but she is a friend and my characteristic reaction to this sort of crap will just destroy the whole farewell evening. Yet another example of where skepticism can cause major family conflicts.

I just hope that Amy's common sense will come to the fore.

I think Delvo's right. It's your daughter whose going-away dinner this is: what does she think about this sort of thing? Would she prefer to use the time it would take to do this for some other fun going-away activity? If so, and if she doesn't want to be the one to break it to your friend, then I'd suggest going with Ashles' suggestion and simply asking your friend to leave the cards at home, because your daughter's not interested.

If she is interested, it might be a really good opportunity to discuss things like the architypal nature of the cards, confirmation bias, cold reading, and how pattern-seekiness is hardwired into humans. Have your daughter come up with a list of predictions as to what kinds of things your friend will do, say, and ask, assuming that the above things (confirmation bias, cold reading, etc...) are what's actually going on. Encourage her to take notes -- and you take notes too -- and then compare your notes when it's all over. It could actually be fun.

[PingOfPong]

I often wonder how well-known skeptics and "devout" atheists deal with family and friends who hold beliefs?

I'm not "well-known" but I can relate. My familiy is extremely religious. I'm an atheist. I don't have any problem insulting a stranger (which is the result of religious discussion because everyone takes it personally). For my family I use a light touch. If they ask me if I'm ready to come back to church I just firmly tell them no. If they ask me why I don't believe I just tell them I have doubts. When they say grace I sit quietly and politely until it's time to eat. My family is more important to me than any debate I'm itching to have. It's not such a big deal.

[nettiemoore]

I know numerous people who do not put (much) stock in the supernatural properties of tarot -- telling the future etc -- but regard it as a way to get a new perspective on things or a particular situation. My sister does i-ching for this reason. You make a subjective narrative out of the random symbols and that helps you think through a problem.

Perhaps if it is going to happen anyway you can encourage your daughter to think of it that way rather than something supernatural.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I feel for you and anyone else in a situation like that because those silly cards or horoscopes or TV shows or whatever else it is do get in the way of a friendship.

Besides the fact that you can get into some really ugly fights over it, it makes you lose alot of respect for your friend and it's hard to be on good terms with someone whose intelligence and judgement you don't have a very good opinion of.

For now, I wouldn't make a big deal out of it or let it bother me unless it turns out to be more serious. I hope that the only real harm that comes out of this is that you will be annoyed.

[lionking]

Thanks for the comments guys. I will let you how the evening goes.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

I second the idea of recording the session. Keep us posted!

[Jackalgirl]

I know numerous people who do not put (much) stock in the supernatural properties of tarot -- telling the future etc -- but regard it as a way to get a new perspective on things or a particular situation. My sister does i-ching for this reason. You make a subjective narrative out of the random symbols and that helps you think through a problem.

Perhaps if it is going to happen anyway you can encourage your daughter to think of it that way rather than something supernatural.

That was my take on it waaaaaaay back when I was reading Tarot cards in college. I'd explain it that way, in fact, but there were still a few people who would insist that no, I had to be psychic. Sigh.

[rjh01]

I predict that if you produce any sort of recording machine then one of two things will happen
1. The tarot reader will refuse to perform, citing some stupid excuse.
2. The tarot reader will give only very general information.

If you do want to record the reading make sure that the machinery is in plain sight from when the tarot reader enters your house. Expect to answer a few questions.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

That was my take on it waaaaaaay back when I was reading Tarot cards in college. I'd explain it that way, in fact, but there were still a few people who would insist that no, I had to be psychic. Sigh.

Whilst believing none of it, I've always loved Tarot Cards, I-Ching etc (even had a crystal oracle set and a lovely set of runestones) and taught myself how to 'read' them. Mainly used them as props in Ad&D games but also did readings for friends for a bit of fun - whilst always maintaining it was nonsense.

Trouble was, no matter how much I said it was nonsense and even though I wouldn't do readings for anyone who professed to believe, those I did readings for kept falling for it (even though they'd said they didn't really believe) hook, line and sinker. I'd be told how incredible I was at it and after a reading struggled to persuade them that I didn't have any 'gift'. 'But how did you know the 'father-figure' indicated was my Dad then?', 'Er, well you told me. I just said this card indicates a father-figure at the heart of the problem and you leapt in with 'That's my dad!' Nothing supernatural about it.'

Sadly my ability to intuit a story from the cards, what I knew of my friends and what they gave away during a reading (it was amazing how much stuff they'd feed me - even quite personal stuff) was actually converting them to woo so I had to stop doing it.

[lionking]

I just hope she gives me the winner of the fifth at Randwick Racecourse next week. I'll be a believer then.:)

[rjh01]

The winner of the fifth race at Randwick will be

A horse, jockey and trainer

Now will you believe I have the power?

[lionking]

I bow to your superior knowledge (and your soon 6000th post).

[Beltaine]

If the reader is a friend, you could always talk her into "reading" whatever conflict you and your daughter are having and convincing your daughter that you are in the right. ;)

I used to have a "friend" that did tarot readings. She would only read for people she knew fairly well. You should have seen the severely biased readings she gave, especially to some of the couples she'd "read" for.

"See honey, the cards say you're wrong and we should do it my way."

[Arthur Denton]

I'm a skeptic and I read tarot too. Don't worry about a thing, cause every little thing is gonna be alright. As long as she tries to keep the reading civil and not to bring your daughter to believe she's in the brink of salvation, you'll only have mild advice, like "for your future, you should think twice about things you do" or something like that. Tarot is great if you are looking for answers, actually. Its not a matter of getting the answer, is using the card to stop and reflect upon that specific thing on the matter you're wondering about.

Of course, if she's a new age hippie, she'll try to sell you everything from enchanted teaspoons to holy books, or at least, she'll try to make your daughter impressed. I'd advise to tell your daughter to consider the reading just a general guideline if she feels compelled to use it as a guideline. Most tarot readers I know wouldn't give bad advice even if they have seen something that may be considered a "bad card combo" in the reading.

Oh, why do I come here? Cause everyone is nice, no one is bigoted and every opinion may be shared freely! Weee!

[ohp]

I think my friends know that I'm a skeptical person. I think if you show skepticism towards something in your friend's presence, they'll begin to see a pattern. It needn't be tarot cards.

Little steps. Bit of diplomacy. I think sometimes you achieve more if you don't probe deeply into their beliefs, but they end up asking you about yours. They have built in defence mechanisms that that protect their beliefs, but you don't need any.

[Arthur Denton]

I think my friends know that I'm a skeptical person. I think if you show skepticism towards something in your friend's presence, they'll begin to see a pattern. It needn't be tarot cards.

Little steps. Bit of diplomacy. I think sometimes you achieve more if you don't probe deeply into their beliefs, but they end up asking you about yours. They have built in defence mechanisms that that protect their beliefs, but you don't need any.

Yeah, most people I know act that way when confronted with skepticism. But there are always the evangelist types, who want you to convert. Then you have to be explicit, and maybe even to cut the person from your list of friends, if they just won't behave.

I'm very shy to actually cut someone, so I rather agree to most of the things they say and just let it go after 2 or 3 seconds of the conversation end.

[borealys]

I don't believe one bit in fortune-telling of any kind, but I do still get a kick out of the occasional visit to a fortune-teller at a carnival or a tea house. I like the ones who use props, like tarot cards, wax drippings, crystals, etc. I call it "the whole show." Most of the people I've seen allowed note-taking, though I've never tried a recording device. It's fun to go through the hits and misses and wild guesses afterwards and analyze it all. After all, fortune-telling is a party trick, nothing more, and there's nothing in the world saying that you have to treat it as anything else.

Of course, it's trickier when the fortune-teller in question is a close friend, because then you may feel more uncomfortable pointing out the obvious cold-reading tricks and vague generalities. The friendship may, ironically, make the whole thing a lot less fun.

[arthwollipot]

I still read the cards occasionally. I see it in this way - the cards are random symbols, which make connections in the subject's mind which otherwise would not necessarily be made. I like to help them to make their own decisions rather than telling them what to do. And no, I've never had anyone ever accuse me of being psychic. Although there's someone I haven't yet done a reading for who might yet do so...

[lionking]

Well she didn't get the cards out - at least I don't think so. I was so sorry/angry/pissed off about my daughter's leaving that after dinner I grabbed a drink, left the room and logged on to the forum. Yeah, not terribly adult I know.....

[zenotter]

I still "consult" my cards occasionally. It's a nice way of telling myself what I already have been telling myself. :) I've approached readings with the archetypical facets in mind, not really a "what the future holds" anything. I also have friends who are tarot readers, and though not all of them are also skeptics, I don't believe that any of them have an intent to deceive or harm anyone they read for. They all mean well.

There are so many ways that readings can be perfectly suited to each person that it's not really a woo thing to me. To me, it's more like a way to concretely see what's going on in your or another person's noggin. Not much different than asking a friend for a different perspective on whatever situation, though drawing cards provides a start point for whatever conversation may ensue.

ETA: I will admit to going to a holistic fair with a question I figured I knew the answer to. "Which job will I get, out of these two I've interviewed for?" I was kinda surprised and glad when the cards came back with serious vagueries, and the reader seemed confused about it. Instead of giving me an answer, he guided me into looking within myself for confidence, with whatever job landed in my lap. Turns out I didn't get either of those two jobs, which is what I figured, but the whole experience was pretty cool to me in that I got confirmation that not all readers are out to hustle people.

[sillyhead]

I had a good friend who read cards, and he would always read for me when I was at crossroads in my life. But he was the "good" kind. He didn't try to steer me into a decision or try to predict the future or anything like that, he just did what Arthur is talking about, saying things like "You are known to burn bridges, try not to do that," etc. He knew me pretty well, so I don't think it mattered what cards he flipped over, he was just sort of doing it as a motivational thing. I don't believe in any of that, but it was fun. I think the real danger is when people take it seriously, and the reader is trying to take advantage of the person being read for.

Anyway, sorry you had to go through that, OP. I've btdt, (including not quite being very mature in stressful situations) and it's not pleasant. Hopefully it will get better. My daughter and I are good friends again, if that's any help at all.

[ohp]

Yeah, most people I know act that way when confronted with skepticism. But there are always the evangelist types, who want you to convert. Then you have to be explicit, and maybe even to cut the person from your list of friends, if they just won't behave.


I know what you mean. I had a friend who stayed after a party I was holding, and tried to engage me about Islam - He started off saying that the christian trinity was polytheistic, and that there was only one true god, blah blah blah.... I had to explain that a) he'd have to convert me to christianity first before he tried that argument b) The party was over and c) I had to be up early tomorrow.

Rather sad really. I had to physically escort him from the premises.

[sillyhead]

I had that happen to me once. I interrupted him and asked him if he wanted to have sex, and he said yes, so I called him an infidel and got out of his car and walked home. :)

[Arthur Denton]

I know what you mean. I had a friend who stayed after a party I was holding, and tried to engage me about Islam - He started off saying that the christian trinity was polytheistic, and that there was only one true god, blah blah blah.... I had to explain that a) he'd have to convert me to christianity first before he tried that argument b) The party was over and c) I had to be up early tomorrow.

Rather sad really. I had to physically escort him from the premises.

I'm simpathetic to the few Muslims I know because they never tried to convert me. They're aware that I'm not a religious person, and they won't make a fuss about it. In fact, one of them told me that he prefer that I'm not a catholic because it makes it easier for them to actually talk about their religion without being looked harshly upon. Well, I don't actually have that many Muslim friends.

The opposite happened with a Baptist ex-almost-GF of mine. She tried to convert me, and I was "flirting" with Wicca in those days. We had a row during a lunch, and never got back together. She still thinks I worship the devil, I guess.

Hehe, nothing like abandoning religion and allowing everyone to worship any way they want.

[Malerin]

I detest the whole thing, and it is happening in my house, but she is a friend and my characteristic reaction to this sort of crap will just destroy the whole farewell evening.

This is very interesting. I think you need to look at why you have such an emotional response to a tarot reading. It almost seems like you feel threatened by it. There is definite hostility here.

Let me give you a similar situation: I invite my Christian friends over for dinner. They want to say Grace. I think it's complete nonsense (if you're going to thank God for food, shouldn't you curse him if you're hungry?). But it means nothing to me. It's a meaningless ritual. I bow my head and wait for the silliness to pass. I even say Amen. Whatever. Then we chow down and have a pleasant dinner.

As someone else wisely said, treat it as a parlor game, but also look at why it provokes an emotional response in you. I get the same response from Jehova's Witnesses who refuse to work with my students on holiday coloring papers. I just want to grab them by the collar and start shaking. But then I think they're entitled to their belief system, no matter how kooky it may be.

[lionking]

Welcome Malerin.

I would prefer to think it is a rational response, rather than emotional, and it in no way threatens me, in the same way Sylvia Brown or John Edwards do not threaten me. They do, however, annoy me greatly. I would equally object to someone coming to my house and saying grace - if they want to give thanks, let them do it silently.

You might call it an emotional response if you want, but I have a low level of tolerance to arrant (and possibly damaging) nonsense in my house.

[Malerin]

Welcome Malerin.

I would prefer to think it is a rational response, rather than emotional, and it in no way threatens me, in the same way Sylvia Brown or John Edwards do not threaten me. They do, however, annoy me greatly. I would equally object to someone coming to my house and saying grace - if they want to give thanks, let them do it silently.

You might call it an emotional response if you want, but I have a low level of tolerance to arrant (and possibly damaging) nonsense in my house.

It obviously IS an emotional response. Lots of things aren't rational. Do you get annoyed if you see someone throw salt over their shoulder? Avoid stepping on a crack? These things people do are what make life so amusing! Tarot is one of them.

[Ron_Tomkins]

... Yet another example of where skepticism can cause major family conflicts.

No. Yet another example of how there are human differences and how we must constantly find the common ground where we can meet half way.

[lionking]

It obviously IS an emotional response. Lots of things aren't rational. Do you get annoyed if you see someone throw salt over their shoulder? Avoid stepping on a crack? These things people do are what make life so amusing! Tarot is one of them.
Obviously? As you do not know me, you cannot say that. And I see a huge difference between superstitious practices like throwing salt over your shoulder and giving someone advice you expect them to take seriously based on a deck of cards or an astrological chart.

[arthwollipot]

:popcorn1

[Malerin]

Obviously? As you do not know me, you cannot say that. And I see a huge difference between superstitious practices like throwing salt over your shoulder and giving someone advice you expect them to take seriously based on a deck of cards or an astrological chart.


Are you claiming this isn't emotionally charged:


Well she didn't get the cards out - at least I don't think so. I was so sorry/angry/pissed off about my daughter's leaving that after dinner I grabbed a drink, left the room and logged on to the forum. Yeah, not terribly adult I know.....

That comes across as pretty emotional...

[Pixel42]

Are you claiming this isn't emotionally charged:

That comes across as pretty emotional...
Yes, but it's clear he's emotional about his daughter leaving home. Not about the tarot card reading.

[Malerin]

Yes, but it's clear he's emotional about his daughter leaving home. Not about the tarot card reading.

Oh, I thought there was a causal connection there. My mistake.

[lionking]

Yes, but it's clear he's emotional about his daughter leaving home. Not about the tarot card reading.
Precisely.

[mrshadyvale]

I think the mistake here is saying that emotional responses and rational responses are mutually exclusive.

What is more rational than wanting to keep your child from being exposed to things you feel could hurt them?

[philebus]

I know I've arrived a little late to this one but I was browsing the posts after being away for a while. I fully understand the objections to tarot reading, I do think that it is a harmful belief and that the young need to be protected. But how is a problem, we cannot really prevent them from encountering these occult beliefs - but I do think that we can give them a little protection. This is the course I've taken with my niece - education and demonstration.

Did you know that tarot cards do not have an occult origin? That they are nothing more nor less than a pack of playing cards created only for playing card games? That the games were played for 350 years before anyone thought to tell fortunes with them? That the games are still played today throughout much of continental Europe? That those picture cards took as a theme nothing more mysterious than a Christian triumph procession - hence they were called trionfi, meaning triumphs, and from which we get our word trump. It was the invention of tarot that marked the invention of trumps in card games.

My feeling is that a child's first encounter with tarot cards should be early and as a card game, with no more mystery than a pack of Uno cards. The silly beliefs that people have developed can be explained as they grow up and, having known them as a trivial item of game play, they should find it a little harder to take the nonsense seriously. It seems to me that the argument against tarot believers cannot be won - they have faith. So, all we can do is promote the truth to those who don't yet have an opinion and trivialise the images by employing them in play.

Of course, most games are usually played with a French suited pack these days but the Italian suits and trumps are still used in a few countries and all of the games can be played using them anyway. I should add that I think that tarot is the best family of card games anyway - so intrinsically worth your while.

If anyone wants to read about how tarot got hijacked by occultists, there are a couple of books co-authored by Michael Dummett that detail this bit of history: "A Wicked Pack of Cards" and "A History of the Occult Tarot".

[H3LL]

This is very interesting. I think you need to look at why you have such an emotional response to a tarot reading. It almost seems like you feel threatened by it. There is definite hostility here.

Let me give you a similar situation: I invite my Christian friends over for dinner. They want to say Grace. I think it's complete nonsense (if you're going to thank God for food, shouldn't you curse him if you're hungry?). But it means nothing to me. It's a meaningless ritual. I bow my head and wait for the silliness to pass. I even say Amen. Whatever. Then we chow down and have a pleasant dinner.

As someone else wisely said, treat it as a parlor game, but also look at why it provokes an emotional response in you. I get the same response from Jehova's Witnesses who refuse to work with my students on holiday coloring papers. I just want to grab them by the collar and start shaking. But then I think they're entitled to their belief system, no matter how kooky it may be.

No, it's not a parlour game - it's deeply insulting.

I would inform the 'guests' that it wasn't some sky fairy that put the food in front of them but provided by the hard work and effort of hundreds of people aided by science and technology, not least the time, money and effort that we had expended to prepare the meal.

All of their food would then be remove.

"A mustard seed of faith can move mountains", pray for your god to move a burger to your plate.



We don't have many dinner parties.

Win-win. :D


.

[lionking]

I know I've arrived a little late to this one but I was browsing the posts after being away for a while. I fully understand the objections to tarot reading, I do think that it is a harmful belief and that the young need to be protected. But how is a problem, we cannot really prevent them from encountering these occult beliefs - but I do think that we can give them a little protection. This is the course I've taken with my niece - education and demonstration.

Did you know that tarot cards do not have an occult origin? That they are nothing more nor less than a pack of playing cards created only for playing card games? That the games were played for 350 years before anyone thought to tell fortunes with them? That the games are still played today throughout much of continental Europe? That those picture cards took as a theme nothing more mysterious than a Christian triumph procession - hence they were called trionfi, meaning triumphs, and from which we get our word trump. It was the invention of tarot that marked the invention of trumps in card games.

My feeling is that a child's first encounter with tarot cards should be early and as a card game, with no more mystery than a pack of Uno cards. The silly beliefs that people have developed can be explained as they grow up and, having known them as a trivial item of game play, they should find it a little harder to take the nonsense seriously. It seems to me that the argument against tarot believers cannot be won - they have faith. So, all we can do is promote the truth to those who don't yet have an opinion and trivialise the images by employing them in play.

Of course, most games are usually played with a French suited pack these days but the Italian suits and trumps are still used in a few countries and all of the games can be played using them anyway. I should add that I think that tarot is the best family of card games anyway - so intrinsically worth your while.

If anyone wants to read about how tarot got hijacked by occultists, there are a couple of books co-authored by Michael Dummett that detail this bit of history: "A Wicked Pack of Cards" and "A History of the Occult Tarot".
Thanks for that and I will now look up the history of Tarot. My main concern was that my daughter may have been influenced by a "reading" of a trusted friend, which thankfully did not happen on the night. BTW we miss Amy dreadfully.:mad:

[Cainkane1]

Well your daughter will also be exposed to the art that goes into making tarot cards. Many excellant artists lend their skill to making tarot cards and while tarot reading is pure woo woo crap the cards themselves are worth looking at. Collecting tarot cards is an excellant hobby.

[Bikewer]

When I was reading up on Asian religions/philosophies, I played with I Ching readings for a bit.

Did the traditional yarrow-stalks thing. (OK, I didn't have any real yarrow. I used bamboo skewers) Fun, kind of like pick-up sticks!

Anyway, at first I was sort of amazed that the rather enigmatic I Ching "hexagram" verses seemed always to be relevant to my inquiries. Maybe there was something to this?

It didn't take long to realize that ALL the I Ching verses ( much like astrology...) are written in such convoluted language that you can find something of correspondence in any of them.

Just open the book to any random page...The ritual means nothing.

[Miss_Kitt]

I have to sympathize with the posters who said things of the general flavor, "If I were religious, people would be okay with my talking about it, but since I'm a skeptic/atheist, I'm expected to just shut up and go along." I dropped out of the group of "Mommies" that my daughter and I had known since she was 3 months old over such issues. I just got tired of being expected to nod and mumble while they raved about reiki and "healing perceptives" and reincarnation.

One evening at a "Mom's Night Out" -- our monthly dinner without the kids -- I replied to one gal's latest woo health recital with, "You do realize that no such abilities have ever been shown to work under laboratory conditions? There's nothing to it but making general statements that you then decide must be personally relevant." She replied, "You may choose to believe that; I believe something different," and began to go one with her narrative.
After 5 years of biting my lip, I lost my patience. "It is not something I 'choose to believe', it's a documented, tested, published in peer-reviewed journals FACT. I am tired of being asked to just shut up, when you are all perfectly willing to tolerate each others' incompatible beliefs! I am tired of my being rational and wanting evidence being treated as somehow stupid or ignorant." Then I said that I was too angry to behave appropriately for a social occasion, made my goodbyes, and left.

After reflecting for about a week, I realized that I didn't really have anything in common with the Moms except having been 'in the foxholes' of early motherhood with them. I now only see 2 of them, and I really don't miss the others. It's harder with family, of course, but a quiet, "I don't agree," followed if need be by, "I don't wish to have an argument about it at this time," works wonders. I only go into a church for a wedding or a funeral, and I am quiet and respectful while I am there; but I don't play along.

It's better this way. Anyone who is so wired into their religious or other Woo (in Seattle, it's not religion that's prominent) that they will try to force your belief-rituals into YOUR home is not a person you want there anyway. IMHO, YMMV, of course.

I hold much the same viewpoint for anyone who would try to wear a Yankees cap into my home!

[philebus]

Yes, we are supposed to keep our mouths shut, aren't we. It is like that at work, with all their astroglogy and mediums that they visit. I remember breaking into a conversation about tarot readings and explained about their origin as a game, that they were just playing cards, and raised questions about how they were supposed to work. I got a resentful looks and was told that I "take all the romance out of things". Which said a lot. Generally, my input to these conversations is received badly and I've been told that I can't question everything and that I think too much. Of course, I can't just leave, its my job, so I really am at the point where I try to keep myself to myself. My budding internet campaign to promote the truth about tarot cards (and the games, which are worth while anyway) is a way of staying sane and retaining a little of my integrety after my silence at the office.

[lionking]

Yes, we are supposed to keep our mouths shut, aren't we. It is like that at work, with all their astroglogy and mediums that they visit. I remember breaking into a conversation about tarot readings and explained about their origin as a game, that they were just playing cards, and raised questions about how they were supposed to work. I got a resentful looks and was told that I "take all the romance out of things". Which said a lot. Generally, my input to these conversations is received badly and I've been told that I can't question everything and that I think too much. Of course, I can't just leave, its my job, so I really am at the point where I try to keep myself to myself. My budding internet campaign to promote the truth about tarot cards (and the games, which are worth while anyway) is a way of staying sane and retaining a little of my integrety after my silence at the office.
You'll find a lot of friends here.