Why Dylan Avery Doesn't Ride Busses

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I'm sure by now we have all heard of the Manitoba bus murder. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080731.wmanbus0731/BNStory/National/home) The shocking carnage and depravity of this senseless act of violence has occupied pundits, talk show hosts and internet message boards for the better part of a week now.

And by now most of the JREF CT forum regulars have seen MarkyX's "9/11 Deniers Speak" (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216643725166640147).

Apart from the expected mocking of Dylan "I would have laughed in thier faces" Avery or James "I would have beat them with my luggage" Fetzer, I have to ask the twoofers here just what would they have done in this situation? What makes these people think they would have reacted any differently than the terrified driver and passengers who stampeded off the buss and then braced the door shut?

Imagine if this had been a plane and the whacko had an accomplice with a couple dozen hours of flying lessons?

[negativ]

DUDE! He would have totally beat the attacker to death with his Samsonite luggage. "Ooooooh, he might scratch me a bit."

The obvious thing you're not seeing is that the alleged "victim" was a paid plant, and the "attacker" had super-secret ties to the NSA (it's already been proved that he had a driver's license, which requires a complete background check). We can only assume that the deceased was on his way to Winnipeg (http://tinyurl.com/3926sw) to finally BLOW THE LID OFF the lies of 9/11 when he was silenced, probably by some syphilitic JREFer.

[X]

Dylan can just sod off.

I live in Manitoba, so I have heard of this murder.

Appearantly, the family lives in my neighborhood.
No, I don't know them. But they have my sincere condolences.

But to laugh, and suggest that he would've been the reckless bravo, and stood up to the perp (armed with a big knife and having shown a complete willingness to use it) is a mockery of the situation, and insulting to everyone einvolved, and Canadians in general.

Most people on the bus were terrified. The driver pulled over and ordered everyone off the bus.
The people complied, and as a result more lives were not lost.

Dylan or Avery or any other Yahoo would have made the tragedy worse.

[Tweeter]

The first thing i would do, is to report this thread as having nothing to do with 9-11 conspiracies.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

[X] - I'm from Edmonton, where the victim boarded the bus and the perpatrator is apperantly from (no, I don't know him... nor do I want to). And people here are freaking out about it too.

Tweeter - From your comments we can deduce that you didn't look at the links provided, you don't know what happened on 9/11 or you aren't aware of the claims made by Avery and other leaders of the twoof movement or a combination of all of the above.

What the Manitoba bus incident demonstrates is that it is quite possible for one person, or a small group, to completely paralyze a much larger group of unprepared, untrained civilians with fear.

We'll never know what went through the minds of the passengers of the hijacked planes on 9/11, but the testimonies of the witnesses to the bus incident makes the official narrative much more plausible.

[~enigma~]

[X] - I'm from Edmonton, where the victim boarded the bus and the perpatrator is apperantly from (no, I don't know him... nor do I want to). And people here are freaking out about it too.

Tweeter - From your comments we can deduce that you didn't look at the links provided, you don't know what happened on 9/11 or you aren't aware of the claims made by Avery and other leaders of the twoof movement or a combination of all of the above.

What the Manitoba bus incident demonstrates is that it is quite possible for one person, or a small group, to completely paralyze a much larger group of unprepared, untrained civilians with fear.

We'll never know what went through the minds of the passengers of the hijacked planes on 9/11, but the testimonies of the witnesses to the bus incident makes the official narrative much more plausible.You mean there was a doubt about the plausibility of the official narrative of 9/11?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

You mean there was a doubt about the plausibility of the official narrative of 9/11?

Of course not. A poor choice of words on my part, but i believe you understand what I was getting at.

[~enigma~]

Of course not. A poor choice of words on my part, but i believe you understand what I was getting at.
Yes I did but I couldn't pass up the chance to comment on that :)

[hxstamper]

What the Manitoba bus incident demonstrates is that it is quite possible for one person, or a small group, to completely paralyze a much larger group of unprepared, untrained civilians with fear.



What your post demonstrates is the typical intellectual dishonesty used by many members of the JREF in a poor attempt to set precedent and/or parallels.

Allow me to illustrate...

Repotedly used on the Manitoba Incident -

http://www.fightingknives.info/Portals/9/hibben%20knives/hibben%20se/rambo%20set%201.JPG
(note - the above blade does not break away if hit with a minimal side force)

Reportedly used in the 9/11 "Hijackings" -

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7526/zcustom2zq.jpg
(note - above blade breaks away with a minimal amount of side force)

Bus -
http://www.used-buses.net/bustypes/img/greyhound-bus-2.jpg
(Note - Ability to evacuate passengers in a very short period of time is very high)

Aircraft in flight-
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/b767/b767_02.jpg
(note - ability to evacuate passengers in short period of time is nil, eg. a trapped "animal").

What happens when a trapped "animal" (or several trapped "animals") are gripped with fear?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid_(terrorist)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response


Nice try SoT, but you get a F for Effort.

:D

Do not hotlink images.

[~enigma~]

What your post demonstrates is the typical intellectual dishonesty used by many members of the JREF in a poor attempt to set precedent and/or parallels.

Allow me to illustrate...

Repotedly used on the Manitoba Incident -

http://www.fightingknives.info/Portals/9/hibben%20knives/hibben%20se/rambo%20set%201.JPG
(note - the above blade does not break away if hit with a minimal side force)

Reportedly used in the 9/11 "Hijackings" -

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7526/zcustom2zq.jpg
(note - above blade breaks away with a minimal amount of side force)

Bus -
http://www.used-buses.net/bustypes/img/greyhound-bus-2.jpg
(Note - Ability to evacuate passengers in a very short period of time is very high)

Aircraft in flight-
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/b767/b767_02.jpg
(note - ability to evacuate passengers in short period of time is nil, eg. a trapped "animal").

What happens when a trapped "animal" (or several trapped "animals") are gripped with fear?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid_(terrorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid_%28terrorist))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response


Nice try SoT, but you get a F for Effort.

:DYes...we know Rob. The passengers are really secondary right?

Please do not toss around accusations of sock puppetry.

[Norseman]

What your post demonstrates is the typical intellectual dishonesty used by many members of the JREF in a poor attempt to set precedent and/or parallels.

Allow me to illustrate...

Repotedly used on the Manitoba Incident -

http://www.fightingknives.info/Portals/9/hibben%20knives/hibben%20se/rambo%20set%201.JPG
(note - the above blade does not break away if hit with a minimal side force)

Reportedly used in the 9/11 "Hijackings" -

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7526/zcustom2zq.jpg
(note - above blade breaks away with a minimal amount of side force)

Bus -
http://www.used-buses.net/bustypes/img/greyhound-bus-2.jpg
(Note - Ability to evacuate passengers in a very short period of time is very high)

Aircraft in flight-
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/b767/b767_02.jpg
(note - ability to evacuate passengers in short period of time is nil, eg. a trapped "animal").

What happens when a trapped "animal" (or several trapped "animals") are gripped with fear?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid_(terrorist)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response


Nice try SoT, but you get a F for Effort.

:D
What did the passengers of Flight 93 do when they realized that it was not an ordinary hijacking?

[johnny karate]

hxstamper, do you think the notion of hijackers subduing an airplane full of people with boxcutters is a ridiculous and implausible one, and thus likely didn't happen on 9/11?

[Mancman]

Aircraft in flight-
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/b767/b767_02.jpg
(note - ability to evacuate passengers in short period of time is nil, eg. a trapped "animal").

What happens when a trapped "animal" (or several trapped "animals") are gripped with fear?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid_(terrorist)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response


Nice try SoT, but you get a F for Effort.

:D

Nice circular. The passenger reaction towards Richard Reid was undoubtably heavily influenced by 9/11 itself, which occured only 2 months prior. Thus it is a poor example of how passengers on 9/11 might react.

How many pre-9/11 examples can you find of hijackers being attacked by passengers?

[OldTigerCub]

What your post demonstrates is the typical intellectual dishonesty used by many members of the JREF in a poor attempt to set precedent and/or parallels.

Allow me to illustrate...

Repotedly used on the Manitoba Incident -

http://www.fightingknives.info/Portals/9/hibben%20knives/hibben%20se/rambo%20set%201.JPG
(note - the above blade does not break away if hit with a minimal side force)

Reportedly used in the 9/11 "Hijackings" -

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7526/zcustom2zq.jpg
(note - above blade breaks away with a minimal amount of side force)

Bus -
http://www.used-buses.net/bustypes/img/greyhound-bus-2.jpg
(Note - Ability to evacuate passengers in a very short period of time is very high)

Aircraft in flight-
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/jetliner/b767/b767_02.jpg
(note - ability to evacuate passengers in short period of time is nil, eg. a trapped "animal").

What happens when a trapped "animal" (or several trapped "animals") are gripped with fear?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid_(terrorist)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response


Nice try SoT, but you get a F for Effort.

:D

Just wondering, how does a blade's lack of thickness prevent it from being used to cut through someones throat? Especially if that someone is strapped into a pilot's seat in a cramped cockpit? Especially in light that pilots on previously hijacked planes were not typically killed.

Psssssst.....and thought I'd point out that hotlinking images, except from approved hotlink providers, is a no - no.:rolleyes:

[hxstamper]

Yes...we know Rob. The passengers are really secondary right?


How does giving up your ship to a stranger holding a boxcutter with break away blades, a person who you have no clue if he knows how to fly, fit in with Passenger safety as number one priority?

According to Ted Olson, Barbara Olson said all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were hearded to the back of the plane. the only weapons she mentions were boxcutters.

Im sure many would like to know which "Captains" here would go sit in the back with the passengers due to a guy like Hani holding a boxcutter at him.... Would these same "Captains" put their name on such a statement? I suspect not one person on this forum who claims to be a command pilot will put their name on such a statement.

Oh, and your post reported for sock accusation.

Did you enjoy your Sunday on the internet Enigma?
(insert laughing dog here)

[MarkyX]

So the 9/11 denier thinks the size of the blade can determine the difference between life and death?

Let's try a broken beer bottle and your throat, since the sharp edges of a broken bottle are so small.

Do not advocate violence or suicide.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Stamper - First off, the differences between the Manitoba incident reinforce my point rather than weaken it. The bus passengers thoughts did not turn to containing the threat until after they had secured access to a reliable escape route. An escape route wich does not exist aboard an aircraft.

Second, in a hypocritical act of intellectual dishonesty of your own, you completely ignore the psychological impact of seeing a human being slaughtered like a hog in a meat packing plant on the passengers.

"I screamed 'stop the bus!' ... Everybody got the hell off, and people at the front of the bus didn't really understand what was going on. It almost turned into a trample scene there, everybody trying to get off the bus. But the guy didn't care at all. He wasn't concerned with anybody but the guy he was stabbing.

"The guy was totally calm. When he brought the head he looked at us and dropped it. It was like he was having a day at the beach. He couldn't be bothered by anything else."

After passengers fled the bus and braced the door to keep the attacker inside, he returned with the victim's head, Mr. Olmstead said.

"His hand come out the door with the knife," he said. "He went back on the bus and then they [passengers] brace the door and he come back standing in the doorway with the head, looked at them, dropped the head, went back and started cutting buddy back up."

Third, people like the terrorist founder of Pilots For Truth, Rob Balsamo, who is notorious for threatening to kill people while safely shielded behind the distance and anonymity provided by the internet, are all such imaginary superheroes while they engage in monday morning quarterbacking over hideous tragedies such as this.

Such "internet tough guys" are also always the first to fold like wet toilet paper whenever they face real danger. I doubt any violent agressor has anything to fear from pffft.

[Bobert]

So the 9/11 denier thinks the size of the blade can determine the difference between life and death?

Let's try a broken beer bottle and your throat, since the sharp edges of a broken bottle are so small.
hahaha good point!
Mark you should throw a link into your sig for the Deniers Speak.
That was one of the first videos I watched upon delving into Woo Woo Land.
One of the most powerful I have ever watched.

[Graham2001]

Nice circular. The passenger reaction towards Richard Reid was undoubtably heavily influenced by 9/11 itself, which occured only 2 months prior. Thus it is a poor example of how passengers on 9/11 might react.

How many pre-9/11 examples can you find of hijackers being attacked by passengers?

I can only remember one incidence prior to 9/11, sadly I cannot remember where I read the account but it did stick in my mind because it's the only time I'd seen an account where passengers took down the hijacker.

It was in the late 60's during the 'Fly me to Cuba' era. The hijacker pulled a couple of handguns and made the usual demand to be diverted to Cuba.

He then started 'explaining' why he was diverting the plane (& shooting up the floor).:eye-poppi

One of the passengers was a coin dealer who used some gold coins he was transporting in his hand luggage to distract the hijacker and managed to get him to put the guns down (to hold the coins) at which point the hijacker was jumped by another passenger and subdued.

On every other hijacking I've read about the passengers just sit back and wait for the situation to be resolved, or as in the case of one Ethiopian hijacking from the 60's got to watch the 'floorshow' as the failed hijackers had their throats cut by the airline security...:jaw-dropp

[Norseman]

How does giving up your ship to a stranger holding a boxcutter with break away blades, a person who you have no clue if he knows how to fly, fit in with Passenger safety as number one priority?

According to Ted Olson, Barbara Olson said all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were hearded to the back of the plane. the only weapons she mentions were boxcutters.

Im sure many would like to know which "Captains" here would go sit in the back with the passengers due to a guy like Hani holding a boxcutter at him.... Would these same "Captains" put their name on such a statement? I suspect not one person on this forum who claims to be a command pilot will put their name on such a statement.



This is what Ted Olson told CNN in an interview aired on january 6th 2002 (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/06/lklw.00.html):
KING: Didn't she ask about the pilot...

T. OLSON: She asked -- she said... KING: ... was the pilot in the back with her then?

T. OLSON: I don't know. But she told me at one point in this conversation, "What shall I tell the pilot? What, what, what, what, what can I tell the pilot to do?"

KING: Implying that he must have been back there with her.

T. OLSON: Either the pilot, or possibly the co-pilot, or a part of the crew. That was the implication, but I didn't really think to ask that specific question.

You do note that it is single pilot and not plural. Also the 9/11 Commission uses captain as single when describing what Barbra Olson said.

So the other pilot could very well be laying dead up front. The pilot in the back could have been dragged out of the cockpit when he opened the door. Or maybe both pilots were murdered in the cockpit. Because Barbara Olson could have been talking about:

Flagg died at age sixty two in the crash of American Airlines flight 77 in the September 11, 2001 attacks. He was a passenger on the flight, traveling to Las Vegas with his wife, Darlene "Dee" Flagg, and friend Barbara G. Edwards.

During his military career, he logged more than 3,200 flight hours on the F-8 Crusader, more than any other pilot.
Flagg also was a captain for American Airlines from 1967 through 1998.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Flagg

Or maybe there was no pilot back there with here at all and that she was not aware of Wilson Flagg either. Maybe she hoped to get in contact with the pilot or whoever was the pilot up front. Because it is only an implication that the pilot was at the back of the aircraft, as should be evident from the above CNN qoute. And again from the CNN interview (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/06/lklw.00.html):
She told me that she had been herded to the back of the plane. She mentioned that they had used knives and box-cutters to hijack the plane. She mentioned that the pilot had announced that the plane had been hijacked. I believe she said that. And she -- I had to tell her about the two airplanes that had hit the World Trade Center.

So it is even likely that Barbara Olson thought that the original pilots were still flying the plane, while they in reality had been murdered or incapacitated by the hijackers.

Further quotes and details found here, including the CNN summary that turned single pilot into plural pilots:
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/American_Airlines_Flight_77_Calls

[~enigma~]

hahaha good point!
Mark you should throw a link into your sig for the Deniers Speak.
That was one of the first videos I watched upon delving into Woo Woo Land.
One of the most powerful I have ever watched.
Very good video. It points out the immorality and stupidity of the few in leadership positions in the truth movement. I would like to see an update to Marky's video and Gravy's transcription to include the idiotic and immoral statements of CIT and PFT.

ETA - also add Sofia's clunkity-clunk bs.

[Minadin]

If anything, this episode highlights how awesomely heroic those folks were who decided to combat the terrorists on Flight 93.

[A W Smith]

How does giving up your ship to a stranger holding a boxcutter with break away blades, a person who you have no clue if he knows how to fly, fit in with Passenger safety as number one priority?



I sincerely hope you are not a pilot. Would a pilot have a better chance of regaining control of his ship with his throat slit by the razor held at his throat? Or would he be better off giving up control temporarily and assessing the best way to regain control of his ship from this hijacker? keep in mind this pilot knew that never in the history of aviation had planes been hijacked and flown to their destruction. You seem to avoid the evidence that these hijackers were trained in terrorist camps and that they assigned the strongest of their group as the "muscle".

but go ahead HX, Be a hero. Go ahead and take that tiny blade away from a trained terrorist who grew up in a culture of warfare and blades going back three thousand years and could more likely than not kill you with his bare hands. I assure you such a move by a fool will make your time on this earth very short.

[Boone 870]

According to Ted Olson, Barbara Olson said all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were hearded to the back of the plane. the only weapons she mentions were boxcutters.
Ask your leader why he is still using Wiki as a source for the pilots quote. I made him aware of the error last year on ATS.

Im sure many would like to know which "Captains" here would go sit in the back with the passengers due to a guy like Hani holding a boxcutter at him.... Would these same "Captains" put their name on such a statement? I suspect not one person on this forum who claims to be a command pilot will put their name on such a statement.


Maybe the flight crews on these two flights would:

Armed with a long knife he barged into the cockpit and - according to one report - demanded to be taken to Yokota, a US military airbase in western Tokyo.

He forced the co-pilot out of the cockpit and the plane turned back towards the capital. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/401680.stm

When the three men reached the cockpit, one or more forced their way in. After 15 minutes, the co-pilot had been beaten and forced from the flight deck. http://www.airdisaster.com/special/ethiopian961.shtml

[LashL]

Stamper - First off, the differences between the Manitoba incident reinforce my point rather than weaken it. The bus passengers thoughts did not turn to containing the threat until after they had secured access to a reliable escape route. An escape route wich does not exist aboard an aircraft.

Second, in a hypocritical act of intellectual dishonesty of your own, you completely ignore the psychological impact of seeing a human being slaughtered like a hog in a meat packing plant on the passengers.



Third, people like the terrorist founder of Pilots For Truth, Rob Balsamo, who is notorious for threatening to kill people while safely shielded behind the distance and anonymity provided by the internet, are all such imaginary superheroes while they engage in monday morning quarterbacking over hideous tragedies such as this.

Such "internet tough guys" are also always the first to fold like wet toilet paper whenever they face real danger. I doubt any violent agressor has anything to fear from pffft.


Very well said, and worth repeating.

[PhantomWolf]

Funny how the fact that prior to 9/11 it was standard operating procedure for every airline in the world to follow the instructions of hijackers, just as it is standard procedure for bank staff to follow the instructions of robbers. It was this way because it was believed that if the crew and passanges cooperated with the hijackers then the chances of people getting hurt were less. Funny that.

So in answer to the question, why would the flight crew give up control of the aircraft on demand, because that is exactly what they are trained and told to do by their employers.

BTW, I do know of two more hijackings where the Hijacker was overpowered, but both were after they had landed the plane and the passangers were of safely. In one case, the only internation Air NZ plane to be hijacked, the crew managed to distract the hijacker and then whaked him on the head with a bottle of champage, in the one, NZ's only ever domestic hijacking, the two pilots managed to subdue the female hijacker after they landed the craft.

[Travis]

Funny how Truthers have never heard of Hindsight Bias.

Of course if they understood anything about logical fallacies they wouldn't be Truthers.

[Jonnyclueless]

I'm sure by now we have all heard of the Manitoba bus murder. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080731.wmanbus0731/BNStory/National/home) The shocking carnage and depravity of this senseless act of violence has occupied pundits, talk show hosts and internet message boards for the better part of a week now.


I bet that put a damper on Michael Moore's documentary on how America has an 'eating peoples faces on buses' violence problem compared to Canada.

[LashL]

How does giving up your ship to a stranger holding a boxcutter with break away blades, a person who you have no clue if he knows how to fly, fit in with Passenger safety as number one priority?

Your post demonstrates the typical intellectual dishonesty used by many members of the grossly inaptly self-named "truth" movement in a poor attempt to downplay the events and to shift the blame to the victims of the terrorist attacks for their own deaths and the deaths of numerous other innocents while simultaneously excusing the terrorists for their callous murder of thousands. This is despicable behaviour.

As mentioned by AW Smith above, would a pilot be better off getting his throat slit by the hijacker or would he better off complying with the hijack protocol of the airline and following his training and the directives of the airline by cooperating - in a pre 9/11 world - in order to assess the situation and hope to save himself and the passengers once the plane is successfully landed?

And, as you must know, since you claim some vague affiliation with the "pilots for truth" morons, and as others such as PhantomWolf have pointed out above, the protocol for hijackings in the pre-9/11 world was to cooperate, land safely, and deal with the rest later. Why do you and the pfft morons claim that you would have done otherwise and insinuate that the victims on 9/11 should have done otherwise?

It is quite possible that I will never understand why conspiracy fantasists go so far out of their way to distort reality in order to disparage the victims of the events of 9/11. Perhaps you can help me out with that by explaining why you do so.


According to Ted Olson, Barbara Olson said all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were hearded to the back of the plane. the only weapons she mentions were boxcutters.

This is a lie. Ted Olson said no such thing. Again, your post demonstrates the typical intellectual dishonesty used by many members of the grossly inaptly named "truth" movement.

See the post above by Norseman, which spells this out in detail and demonstrates once again your propensity for cherrypicking to push lies in service of the inaptly self-named "truth" movement.

Im sure many would like to know which "Captains" here would go sit in the back with the passengers due to a guy like Hani holding a boxcutter at him....

There is no evidence whatsoever that Captain Burlingame did any such thing, and your continuing attempts to disparage him after his death at the hands of terrorists are disgusting.

Again, see the post above by Norseman and see, also, the post above by Boone 870.

Would these same "Captains" put their name on such a statement? I suspect not one person on this forum who claims to be a command pilot will put their name on such a statement.

I'm sure many would like to know which "captains" at pffft would put their names on statements disparaging the real pilots who died that day, such as your posts in this thread. I suspect that not one real command pilot would ever do so (although I also suspect that one guy there who claims to have been a captain once upon a time might, while also calling for the death of anyone who disagrees with him.)

[Alareth]

While I'm all for the mocking of members of the "truth movement", I have to say this thread is in very poor taste.

[gumboot]

What happens when a trapped "animal" (or several trapped "animals") are gripped with fear?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid_(terrorist)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response


I think the F for effort belongs to you...

The Fight-Flight response is a response for dealing with animals of a different species, or inter-species interaction, if you will. When animals of the same species interact (particularly social animals such as humans) the response that comes in to play is Dominate-Submit, or posturing.

The problem with the Dominate-Submit response is that once you enter a submissive posture it becomes much, much harder (psychologically speaking) to make any attempt to establish a dominant posture.

The problem with this for the passengers on the hijacked aircraft is that when you enter an aircraft you automatically assume a submissive posture and allow the flight crew the dominant posture. It's their "territory", they're in charge, and while you sit down they're standing up.

But flight crews were trained, in the event of a hijacking, to submit to the hijackers, so when the attacks occurred the terrorists immediately established the dominant posture, with the flight crew submitting, and the passengers the submissive level below the flight crew.

Post 9/11 this changed, and flight crews changed their response to hijackers - instead of submitting they attempted to dominate the hijackers. So in the case of Richard Reid firstly he didn't attempt to dominate the flight crew - he stayed in his seat in a submissive position and tried to avoid attention. The flight crew, maintaining dominance, attempted to enforce that dominance, at which point he attempted to establish his own dominance. This failed because the flight attendant refused to relinquish dominance, and instead called for help. Additional flight attendants and then passengers then conceded to the initial flight attendant's dominance and assisted her, thus overwhelming the terrorist and asserting his submission.

[Jontg]

Or, in more unambiguous terms: Stamper, you're a blithering idiot, and your macho posturing will get you killed someday. Hopefully with something I helped design.

[Lopakhin]

If anything, this episode highlights how awesomely heroic those folks were who decided to combat the terrorists on Flight 93.

<truthermode>erm ... But that didn't really happen ... it was all just a story made up to make us feel better and more patriotic ... real passengers would never react in that way, not even if they'd heard on their phones that the other planes weren't being landed but were being crashed ... Flight 93 was shot down instead ... damn, I'm so confused ... </truthermode>

[hxstamper]

For those who feel Ted didnt say "pilots" (plural), please do your homework...

Ted Olson told CNN that his wife said all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were herded to the back of the plane by armed hijackers.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/pentagon.olson/


Really, click the link. Try it.. :D

We already knew many here were poor researchers, but when its right on our site top page of pentagon section (http://pilotsfor911truth.org) linked to CNN... well.. wow.. just wow. :rolleyes:

The rest of the posts/replies here are the typical gang-rape debate style littered with ad homs, personal attacks and libel (Rob is a "terrorist" now? SoT, you better inform the FAA! Be sure to put your name on such a claim instead of from behind your screen. lmao...).

[Jontg]

Well, I'm glad you finally understand how badly various orifices are being violated. :p

[jaydeehess]

Nice circular. The passenger reaction towards Richard Reid was undoubtably heavily influenced by 9/11 itself, which occured only 2 months prior. Thus it is a poor example of how passengers on 9/11 might react.

How many pre-9/11 examples can you find of hijackers being attacked by passengers?

A few weeks after the plane that left D.C. fell from the sky , impacted a bridge and crashed due to wing icing I boarded a flight in Montreal. It was snowing heavily and all flights were backed up because there were only so many de-ice trucks to service all aircraft. We were at the gate, in our seats for 2 hours before being de-iced and backing out from the terminal.

NO ONE COMPLAINED...............................

Had that occured a few weeks prior to that D.C. crash I have no doubt that there would have been some.

Its is sometime refered to as learning from history.

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by hxstamper
Im sure many would like to know which "Captains" here would go sit in the back with the passengers due to a guy like Hani holding a boxcutter at him....

Why do you continue to try to assert that Hani was alone in the cockpit with the crew and the one with the razor?
Hani flew the a/c. , others supplied the 'muscle'.
If Bill Gates wanted to subdue Dolf Ludgren he would simply hire two guys the size of Dolf to do so.

[Norseman]

For those who feel Ted didnt say "pilots" (plural), please do your homework...
Ted Olson told CNN that his wife said all passengers and flight personnel, including the pilots, were herded to the back of the plane by armed hijackers.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/pentagon.olson/

Really, click the link. Try it.. :D

We already knew many here were poor researchers, but when its right on our site top page of pentagon section (http://pilotsfor911truth.org) linked to CNN... well.. wow.. just wow. :rolleyes:

The rest of the posts/replies here are the typical gang-rape debate style littered with ad homs, personal attacks and libel (Rob is a "terrorist" now? SoT, you better inform the FAA! Be sure to put your name on such a claim instead of from behind your screen. lmao...).

Oh yes I did my homework. In my post about Olson I pointed to 911myths.com where the above quote was discussed:

Further quotes and details found here, including the CNN summary that turned single pilot into plural pilots:
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/American_Airlines_Flight_77_Calls

What you quoted was a summary written by Tim O'Brien. It is not the words of Ted Olson, it is Tim O'Brien's interpretation of what Ted Olson said. CNN's Tim O'Brian, a friend of the Olson family, spoke with Ted Olson on september 11th. Later in the evening he was interviewed by Larry King about what Ted Olson said. The transcript is here:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/lkl.00.html

From the transcript:
O'BRIEN: She was able to call him twice. How she could pull that off, we don't know, but she did. The phone went dead the first time after a very brief first conversation, maybe less than a minute. And she called him back. And she said to him, what do I tell the pilot to do? Vintage Barbara, ready to take charge.

She was in the back of the plane, huddled with other passengers and we're told flight personnel and presumably the pilot.
Note the use of single pilot, not plural.

The Larry King interview with Tim O'Brien was aired 21:00 EDT. A few hours later at 2:06 AM in the morning of september 12th Tim O'Brien's summary was posted.

In my post I used a transcript of what Ted Olson himself told Larry King. That is the closest source to what Barbara Olson said.

If you had followed the link to 911myths.com I provided you would have known this.

There is nothing here proving that the original pilots of Flight 77 were in the back of the plane with Barbara Olson. They could very well be up front in the cockpit incapacitated or murdered. While Barbara Olson quit simply thought that the pilots were still flying the plane directed by the hijackers. And that she hoped that she somehow could get in contact with the pilot.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

If Bill Gates wanted to subdue Dolf Ludgren he would simply hire two guys the size of Dolf to do so.

And if he wanted to subdue Dolf Lundgrens film career, he would simply hire Dolf. :D

[fitzgibbon]

And if he wanted to subdue Dolf Lundgrens film career, he would simply hire Dolf. :D

Eeeeeheeeeheeeeee! Thank you SOT for the best giggle I've had in days

[Jontg]

Also, am I a horrible person for finding the entire scenario hilarious? This dude's just catching a nap on the bus, and then for no apparent reason the guy next to him hacks his head off. It sounds like something out of Monty Python.

[LashL]

For those who feel Ted didnt say "pilots" (plural), please do your homework...

You are quite wrong, again, of course.

It is you and the idiots at pffft whom you represent who need to do your/their homework. The preceding posts on the subject in this very thread make this quite clear and your abject failure and inability to respond to those posts meaningfully demonstrates that you know you are wrong and that you are simply posturing. Such posturing might work on tinhat forums full of morons and fools, but it won't work here.

[Minadin]

Also, am I a horrible person for finding the entire scenario hilarious?

Maybe, for certain definitions of hilarious. I certainly find the whole thing bizarre. Not so much 'ha-ha' bizarre as disturbing bizarre.

If the guy who was attacked had been one of these internet cowboys who want to beat up trained terrorists with a carry-on bag and laugh in their faces, and the weapon had been a boxcutter or utility knife, the event might have had a measure of irony to it, but it would still be a sad, needlessly violent occurrence resulting in someone's death.

[Jontg]

Well, my sense of humor tends towards the absurd--and on some level indiscriminate murder is absurd. So on some characteristically unhinged level, random acts of violence set off my sense of humor. Like just then, for example: just typing the phrase "random acts of violence" gave me the giggles. My god, they're never gonna let me get within ten feet of the next standard infantry rifle, are they?

[Minadin]

I guess it will depend on how deeply you're invloved with the NWO.

[Jontg]

Dang--does the Military-Industrial Complex count?

[gumboot]

Also, am I a horrible person for finding the entire scenario hilarious? This dude's just catching a nap on the bus, and then for no apparent reason the guy next to him hacks his head off. It sounds like something out of Monty Python.


I am also a fan of absurdist humour, and in a certain clinical way I find the entire thing hilarious also. Some things are so strange that their absurdity transcends their horror.

[jaydeehess]

hxstamper was banned !!

Now I'll never know why he asserts that Hani was the one with the boxcutter!

Is there a thread in which bannings are announced?

[Alt+F4]

hxstamper was banned !!

Now I'll never know why he asserts that Hani was the one with the boxcutter!

Is there a thread in which bannings are announced?

Bannings and the such are posted in the Public Notices Forum. Those PfT take themselves waaaay to seriously.

[jaydeehess]

Also, am I a horrible person for finding the entire scenario hilarious? This dude's just catching a nap on the bus, and then for no apparent reason the guy next to him hacks his head off. It sounds like something out of Monty Python.

I too am a fan of the M.Python type of humour.

However, this hits too close to home. Winnipeg is quite close so we got more coverage in local media outlets than those living farther away would have.

This unprovoked attack on a completely innocent victim is more Steven King ( with screen play by Tarantino) than Monty Python.

[Disbelief]

hxstamper was banned !!

Now I'll never know why he asserts that Hani was the one with the boxcutter!



Did you really expect an answer? Besides, you should be able to ask his next sock.

[jaydeehess]

Did you really expect an answer? Besides, you should be able to ask his next sock.

So he was in fact Balsamo?

ETA: I found the ban notice.

Odd response from PfT indeed. All that was wanted was verification of the identity of the person using the hxstamper account and a tirade is offered instead.

No Rob,(assuming you are watching) members here are not in the habit of refering to American, licensed, pilots as terrorists.

However if one of their number chooses to side with known terrorists by attempting to deflect blame for a terrorist's actions from those terrorists then that pilot has chosen his own company and should expect to be branded as one of them by people who know that 19 Islamic terrorists carried out the attacks of 9/11/01

[leftysergeant]

The first thing i would do, is to report this thread as having nothing to do with 9-11 conspiracies.

That would also invalidate the testimony of half the poppinjay military veterans on Miller's PQ9/11. "I would have beat the bejabbers out of some caveman with a box cutter..." ense and repeat.

Twoofers don't understand human behavior in an OH BLEEP scenario. (Maybe this is evidence that the Reptilian CT is real. Fetzer is a reptilian.)