Bogus maintenance/ security men (for papasmurf)

[Alferd_Packer]

I would like for papasmurf to elaborate on a claim that he made in a previous thread. PS, you claimed that explosives were planted in the buildings by bogus security workers.

Now I realize that you are still in school and do not have a wealth of experience in what the rest of us call “work,” so I am willing to allow you to use your imagination here.

Please describe for us how you think that the explosive/thermite could have been planted. How did the bad guys not get noticed. How did they access the areas they needed to access. How did they access the columns, etc.

Thanks.

[WildCat]

I don't think he/she will be back:
You win everyone. Gravity wins.

Congratulations, I am gone now. I won't be back for a long time... perhaps never.
Already did the whole dramatic exit thing.

eta: Oh, I see he came back last night.

[Drudgewire]

Gravity loses again. :(

[WildCat]

Gravity loses again. :(
No, it won't. It will eventually pull this thread lower and lower and lower until you'll have to use Google to find it.

[Alferd_Packer]

Yeah, I figured he would ignore it.

[Loss Leader]

Did you send him an invite?

[Alferd_Packer]

bump for the blue guy in the red hat. (BTW, did you know that papasmurf is a communist?)

[papasmurf]

No doubt the plan was elaborate and well executed and required security clearance.

You are asking me to make a stab at how they did this? Surely i can entertain you with the idea, but no one knows how they pulled it off.

If i had to guess, i would imagine about a dozen or so workers were in the buildings as elevator repairmen or maintenance people of some sort.

They probably had those massive metal or plastic wheeled carts that they put their "materials" in to take to the working locations.

They could have done this at night while there was extremely low elevator traffic.

They proceed to access the columns through elevator shafts and other nonintrusive locations. The devices were specially made to be easy to install and were equipped with high-tech wireless triggers.


This could have taken weeks to months to complete.

Anyone want to add or modify to my idea here?

I really don't think about this too much because it doesn't change the fact that the collapse is still unexplained.

[papasmurf]

bump for the blue guy in the red hat. (BTW, did you know that papasmurf is a communist?)



I am quite the opposite of a communist, really. I support Ron Paul.

Nice try though.

[johnny karate]

No doubt the plan was elaborate and well executed and required security clearance.

You are asking me to make a stab at how they did this? Surely i can entertain you with the idea, but no one knows how they pulled it off.

If i had to guess, i would imagine about a dozen or so workers were in the buildings as elevator repairmen or maintenance people of some sort.

They probably had those massive metal or plastic wheeled carts that they put their "materials" in to take to the working locations.

They could have done this at night while there was extremely low elevator traffic.

They proceed to access the columns through elevator shafts and other nonintrusive locations. The devices were specially made to be easy to install and were equipped with high-tech wireless triggers.


This could have taken weeks to months to complete.

Anyone want to add or modify to my idea here?

I really don't think about this too much because it doesn't change the fact that the collapse is still unexplained.

Why has the unexplained mystery of WTC7's collapse gone unnoticed and/or unrevealed by every single professional investigator and law enforcement official on the entire planet?

Why isn't anyone in some kind of official capacity, anywhere in the world, investigating this so-called "bogus maintenance worker" theory?

[Alferd_Packer]

No doubt the plan was elaborate and well executed and required security clearance.

Are you aware that most of the financial sector tenants had their own security systems, procedures, and processes. Even the building security would not have had direct access to those tenant spaces without going through the tenant security officers.


You are asking me to make a stab at how they did this? Surely i can entertain you with the idea, but no one knows how they pulled it off.

If i had to guess, i would imagine about a dozen or so workers were in the buildings as elevator repairmen or maintenance people of some sort.

There were up to 80 elevator mechanics in the building on a daily basis, 24/7. Where they all part of this? No one could access the elevator shafts without them knowing about it.

"or maintenance people of some sort. " Same objection. There was a large staff of maintenance engineers in the building 24/7. Many of these guys worked there for years and years. They knew everyone that was supposed to be there. They knew everything that was going on.



They probably had those massive metal or plastic wheeled carts that they put their "materials" in to take to the working locations.

In any large highrise building, freight elevator traffic is closely controlled. any major movement of materials and equipment has to be scheduled in advance.

How was this done without causing the other workers to ask questions?





They could have done this at night while there was extremely low elevator traffic.

Night was the busiest time for maintenance work. There were guys all over the building. They knew everyone else. how did they not notice any strangers?




They proceed to access the columns through elevator shafts and other nonintrusive locations.

Well, the elevator shaft idea is simply impossible to support under normal building maintenance processes. Elevators are are subject to "life safety" building codes. any work being done on them is closely regulated and monitored.

Please elaborate on what you consider to be a "nonintrusive location." Since explosive charges have to be placed in specific locations, how does this work?


The devices were specially made to be easy to install and were equipped with high-tech wireless triggers.

Please provide evidence of any explosive demolition process that uses wireless devices.

[papasmurf]

Why has the unexplained mystery of WTC7's collapse gone unnoticed and/or unrevealed by every single professional investigator and law enforcement official on the entire planet?

Why isn't anyone in some kind of official capacity, anywhere in the world, investigating this so-called "bogus maintenance worker" theory?

Most likely a cover up and obstruction of justice.

Make no mistake, other people are looking into 9/11.

Look at the Japanese government on youtube investigating.

[WildCat]

They probably had those massive metal or plastic wheeled carts that they put their "materials" in to take to the working locations.
Have you calculated how much "material" you'd need yet?

Remember, you claim that the bomb in the center of each floor was powerful enough to pulverize nearly an acre of concrete and also blast "most" of the material on each floor outside the buildings footprint. It also didn't blast any material upwards, nor can they blast any material downwards or it would destry the bomb on the floor beneath prematurely. And it also isn't heard in any recording of the event.

What kind of bomb do you have in mind papasmurf?

I think we're talking tens of thousands of pounds of TNT equivalent per floor, maybe you have a different figure? How big are these spaces into which your fake maintenance workers are inserting "material"?

[johnny karate]

Most likely a cover up and obstruction of justice.

On a global scale? How do you account for "a cover up and obstruction of justice" occurring on a worldwide level?

Make no mistake, other people are looking into 9/11.

It's just that those "other people" aren't professional investigators or law enforcement officials, are they? Why do you suppose that is?

Look at the Japanese government on youtube investigating.

The Japanese government is not investigating 9/11. One member of the Japanese legislature has voiced his suspicions. To date, the Japanese government has taken no position nor done a thing to follow up on those suspicions.

[WildCat]

In any large highrise building, freight elevator traffic is closely controlled. any major movement of materials and equipment has to be scheduled in advance.
Absolutely. And I know from personal experience that the regular staff will still commandeer it to pull garbage even though they know you have it scheduled. Yes, I have been locked out of the elevator (and my job) for up to an hour while the janitors pull garbage after I went down to grab a tool, a big part (the other part is parking) of the reason I don't do jobs in high-rises any more. Screw 'em.

[papasmurf]

Are you aware that most of the financial sector tenants had their own security systems, procedures, and processes. Even the building security would not have had direct access to those tenant spaces without going through the tenant security officers.



There were up to 80 elevator mechanics in the building on a daily basis, 24/7. Where they all part of this? No one could access the elevator shafts without them knowing about it.

"or maintenance people of some sort. " Same objection. There was a large staff of maintenance engineers in the building 24/7. Many of these guys worked there for years and years. They knew everyone that was supposed to be there. They knew everything that was going on.



In any large highrise building, freight elevator traffic is closely controlled. any major movement of materials and equipment has to be scheduled in advance.

How was this done without causing the other workers to ask questions?





Night was the busiest time for maintenance work. There were guys all over the building. They knew everyone else. how did they not notice any strangers?




Well, the elevator shaft idea is simply impossible to support under normal building maintenance processes. Elevators are are subject to "life safety" building codes. any work being done on them is closely regulated and monitored.

Please elaborate on what you consider to be a "nonintrusive location." Since explosive charges have to be placed in specific locations, how does this work?




Please provide evidence of any explosive demolition process that uses wireless devices.


WOOOO HOOOOOO

Looks like you were just waiting to spring a trap on me! locked and loaded!

Never said anything about going into tenant's rooms and bypassing their security systems, did I?


I've never been in any building where their were 80 elevator workers at one time, and on a daily basis! I would love to see where you got that information, and how you had to twist it to make it sound like there couldn't be any shifts rigged with the bad guy crew.

You also failed to counter my idea that they could have done it at night with a rigged security crew.

[geni]

You also failed to counter my idea that they could have done it at night with a rigged security crew.

The problem with the rigged security idea is that the regular security people will ask questions. And a bunch of people no one has ever heard of who are not acting like normal security people is going to take some serious explaining to the geniune securtiy. You might be able to talk your way into the building once but more than once?

[A W Smith]

No doubt the plan was elaborate and well executed and required security clearance.

You are asking me to make a stab at how they did this? Surely i can entertain you with the idea, but no one knows how they pulled it off.

If i had to guess, i would imagine about a dozen or so workers were in the buildings as elevator repairmen or maintenance people of some sort.

They probably had those massive metal or plastic wheeled carts that they put their "materials" in to take to the working locations.

They could have done this at night while there was extremely low elevator traffic.

They proceed to access the columns through elevator shafts and other nonintrusive locations. The devices were specially made to be easy to install and were equipped with high-tech wireless triggers.


This could have taken weeks to months to complete.

Anyone want to add or modify to my idea here?

I really don't think about this too much because it doesn't change the fact that the collapse is still unexplained.

now tell us how many pounds of thermite would it take to cut through a column 36" - 54" wide by 16" deep and with 2" - 3 1/2" wall thickness

and could you also point out those non intrusive spaces on these drawings. a screen capture with arrows will do

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/table.html

[johnny karate]

Bump for papasmurf (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3922387&postcount=14)

[chillzero]

Off topic posts split to new thread. Please remember to keep on topic.

[Alferd_Packer]

One other point I would like to make. The maintenance (stationary) engineers, elevator mechanics, elevator operators, electricians, carpenters, plumbers, etc. in New York are highly unionized.

These guys know exactly who is a union contractor and who is not. Anyone who thinks that you could bring in a bunch of bogus, non unionized, workers without anyone noticing, well, I got a problem with that.

[Alferd_Packer]

You also failed to counter my idea that they could have done it at night with a rigged security crew.

Once again, you fail to appreciate just how things work in the real world.

As pointed out, there are other persons in the building.

Why would a security crew be doing maintenance work, moving materials, etc it the building?

many of the tenant spaces were only accessible through the tenants themselves. Even the building security did not have access to these areas. This is pretty standard stuff in the financial sector.

[SDC]

Absolutely. And I know from personal experience that the regular staff will still commandeer it to pull garbage even though they know you have it scheduled. Yes, I have been locked out of the elevator (and my job) for up to an hour while the janitors pull garbage after I went down to grab a tool, a big part (the other part is parking) of the reason I don't do jobs in high-rises any more. Screw 'em.

My bolding! Aha! So the mask begins to slip from the conspiracy... Garbage was "pulled" as part of it... Wait, wait, let me look in Youtube for the confirming, damning, like, totally evidence!!

Wildcat, I can't believe you thought you'd get away with your evil plan.

I mean that in a nice and sincere way, however.

ETA: Are you Larry Silverstein?

[ElMondoHummus]

It is ridiculous to posit a hypothesis of maintenance men rigging a building for demolitions in the absence of any indications that this happened, and in the face of nobody noticing. Recall that former poster NDBoston worked in 7 World Trade, noted that floors had personnel 24x7, and never noted any such rigging:

Terral:

Can you explain to me how the building I worked in for three years including 9/11 was wired for controlled demolition without myself or any of my fellow employees at Salomon noticing it?

Keep in mind that three floors had coverage 24/7/365 (trading floors). Many others had people working early to late. I averaged 75 hours a week when I was there. Salomon had floors 27-44 and portions of the floors below that.

Was this done at night time? How did they handle when someone came on the floor? How did they handle security?

I try to ignore you but sometimes.....good God.

The company with the most floors and sq ft in WTC7 was Salomon Smith Barney.

I worked there with thousands of people doing crazy hours, most doing 80-90 hour weeks. There was no evidence of massive amounts of construction being done on our floors (read up on how a building is wired for CD). Three floors had people on them 24/7 and most days you usually had someone working to past midnight.

Explain to ME how my building was wired for controlled demolition while I worked there. How did I not see this?

I had free access on any Salomon Smith Barney floor. We had the most sq ft in 7 and dominated the building with employees. I could have accessed the same floors as some of the Federal agencies too where Salomon had space. It doesn't sound exactly like "Area 51" now does it?

Please explain how the building was wired for CD on floors 18-45 without anyone noticing that.


... We had three floors that had 24x7 365 days a year coverage as trading floors and people working long, crazy hours on numerous others. The merger also caused the workspace to get very crowded too. We were packed in together like rats.

All this and you're of the opinion that the building was wired for controlled demolition without a soul noticing a bit of significant construction.


I worked for Salomon for 3 years up to and including 9-11 at WTC7. There were three floors that had activity 24-7 (all were trading floors).

I found most floors at a minimum had people working there 6 days a week and many had people there 7 days a week. We were all under large amounts of pressure with deadlines and paid a great deal to do our jobs. People were also packed in like sardines on most floors. How were these explosive devices put in without anyone noticing it?

I never saw any significant construction in my time there. Can you point me to one employee from WTC7 who has a different account than mine? I haven't seen it.

The case of WTC 7 does not lend itself to any thesis that supposed demolitions rigging occurred during slack times when few people were around. Such construction would not only have to take into account the floors continuously manned, but would also have to somehow not be noticible on those floors. And that is the whole point of bringing up the absurdity of claiming that demolitions construction work was done in the weeks to months prior to 9/11. Very simply put, no one noticed any such work being done. And there were too many people present to not have noticed any such work.

[GlennB]

The case of WTC 7 does not lend itself to any thesis that supposed demolitions rigging occurred during slack times when few people were around. Such construction would not only have to take into account the floors continuously manned, but would also have to somehow not be noticible on those floors. And that is the whole point of bringing up the absurdity of claiming that demolitions construction work was done in the weeks to months prior to 9/11. Very simply put, no one noticed any such work being done. And there were too many people present to not have noticed any such work.

Right. And I swear that most (if not all) CD CTists have a vision of the core areas being one giant, dark void with core columns scattered around. And that MiB could swing - Tarzan-like - back+forth attaching magnetic demolition packs here and there.

In fact the core columns were all lined with fireproofing and many covered to varying degrees in heavyweight dry-walling. They bordered offices, restrooms, corridors, stairways, storage areas etc etc.

Removing the drywalling would in itself be a monstrous job. It was heavy :

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/sap-guy/partitionwallsystem.jpg

And it was extensive :

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/sap-guy/corearchitecture.jpg

And then we have to consider the fact that CD requires pairs (or multiples) of opposite charges operating together to cut the steel, and that columns are typically pre-weakened with torches to reduce the column strength and ensure effective demolition:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/sap-guy/cuttercharges.jpg

Attaching some kind of CD package would then make the replacement of the drywalling impossible (see pic 1 above). That's even allowing for the distant possibility of getting unobserved access to the necessary columns for sufficient time to even try.

And - note well - the guys in the photo above are working in a totally stripped-down building. Even then it takes months to rig a CD.

In short, the whole concept is absurd. Not a very scientific word, I know, but demonstrably and palpably absurd it remains. You can just about smell the absurdity.

[Loss Leader]

To date, the Japanese government has taken no position


Don't be so sure. This statement (http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/speech/un2004/un0401.html) by the Japanese Mission to the UN appears to be the official position of the Japanese government. And it appears to support the overwhelming evidence that Al Qaida was responsible for 9/11.

So a so-called "debunker" is wrong again.

[novice skeptic]

Gravity Fails...a great song by the Bottle Rockets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryrswWZCC-s

[johnny karate]

Don't be so sure. This statement (http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/speech/un2004/un0401.html) by the Japanese Mission to the UN appears to be the official position of the Japanese government. And it appears to support the overwhelming evidence that Al Qaida was responsible for 9/11.

I was referring specifically to the Japanese government's response to the allegations made by the lone "Truther" in the legislature, but your point is duly noted and much appreciated.