eucharistic miracles: The miracle of Lanciano

[david_UH]

Hello first time poster, was wondering if anyone could help me out. Someone replied to one of my youtube videos on desecrating the eucharist claiming that eucharistic miracles, one in particular, The miracle of Lanciano, is indisputable proof that miracles occur.

Link to his video: you tube / watch?v=pHlCy-yWw4o
pHlCy-yWw4o

I have been trying to explain to this person how the evidence for this particular miracle is utter crap, but perhaps I am not so good at getting my points across. Was wondering if anyone here has previously done research on this particular miracle and could help respond to this persons claims.

His main point of contention is that he is claiming that the blood and flesh are somehow miraculously preserved, defying everything we know about science and that this claim is backed up by scientific data: (taken from the wiki)

"Professor Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy, and Professor Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena, conducted a scientific investigation into the miracle. The report was published in Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori in 1971, and reaffirmed by a scientific commission appointed by the Higher Council of the World Health Organization in 1973.[1] The following conclusions were drawn:[2]"

Here are all the links he is posted to try to prove his point.

JREF won't let me post links yet :(

any help with this would be greatly appreciated,

thank you,

david simmons

[SRW]

Joe Nickel has done some investigations on this subject, http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_3_32/ai_n25376804/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
I believe he also covers the subject in his book Looking For a Miracle.
http://www.joenickell.com/

[david_UH]

cool ,thank you, I am big fan of Joe nickell, I will check that book out tomorrow at my Uni's library.

[david_UH]

Unfortunately, that particular book had nothing on Eucharist miracles :(.

[SRW]

You might try this one http://www.kentuckypress.com/viewbook.cfm?Category_ID=1&Group=135&ID=1380

Steve

[Biscuit]

His argument that because the results showed the flesh and blood to be no more than an hour old means that someone would have to be killed every hour for the last 1,300 years is beyond silly.

"First, the reported color of the "blood" doesn't match real blood. Real blood blackens with age -- it doesn't turn ochre nor does it appear rose-colored when backlit. Second, this area of Italy has produced other such blood "miracles" that have been exposed as hoaxes. There are at least two known methods of faking the stuff which is claimed to be "flesh and blood". One uses a thixatropic gel (made by mixing chalk and hydrated iron chloride with a small amount of salt water) and the other uses an oil-wax-pigment mixture that liquefies at even a slight increase in temperature. The apparent reddening comes from light being more readily transmitted through the liquefied substance. It's rather obvious why outside investigators are rarely, if ever, permitted to examine the "miraculous" substances."

from here: http://home.earthlink.net/~mlbakke1/r_para7.htm

[david_UH]

Alright I got my hands on the original paper and how unsurprising, it does nothing to validate the supposed miracle.

The blood failed numerous tests that worked on his dried blood controls. The paper even said this "The negativity of Teichmann-Bertrand's test and Takayama's test does not exclude the presence of Blood, as these tests can become negative due to sample denaturation."

The blood remnants couldn't be stained with eiosin-red. Under microscopy no cellular structures could be visually verified. (so much for fresh). The only thing that remained were protein and mineral remnants.

Serum proteins were obtained, but this is no big deal since the same has been obtained form mummies and even a 100,000 year old tool.(google prehistoric blood, researchers did work published in science on this).

The mineral contents were highly reduced expect for an unusually high amount of calcium. Reduced minerals happens when a blood sample is extremely decayed and the proteins have denatured allowing the minerals to be absorbed into the surrounding environment. As for the 11 times normal amount of calcium, the paper does not test anything to see where this came from, it only states that this could have come from calcium salts in the building or the vegetable remnants that were found with the blood samples. (could this be a preservative? We can't know since we can never test this again, due to the catholic churches hold on supposed miracles. "my impression of the Catholic church --- We only allow biased so-called-scientists that are members of our church or sympathetic to the supernatural to verify miracles, because ever time we got someone from the outside our miracles turn out to be fakes".

Anyway that was sort of fun. So anyone who was wondering if miracles were scientifically proven. Guess what they remain unproven by any scientific test.

the paper is on my blog along with a short write up of what I found.

[JoeTheJuggler]

There was also an article on eucharistic miracles in one of the most recent Skeptic or Skeptical Enquirer magazines. I forget which. If I can find it in this mess of papers, I'll let you know, but perhaps someone else knows for sure.