How did they cut those?

[DC]

http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2006/07/343154.jpg

we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it.
some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters.

fine and well.

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it.

what do you think?

[WildCat]

FfgSr2eBXls

[Disbelief]

http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2006/07/343154.jpg

we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it.
some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters.

fine and well.

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it.

what do you think?

Why ask when you won't believe the answers? All you will do is try to spin this into something "proving" inside job.

[DC]

FfgSr2eBXls

cuts in an angle with molten material around it, and the other cuts?

[DC]

Why ask when you won't believe the answers? All you will do is try to spin this into something "proving" inside job.

then best dont post in here :)

thx and bye bye

[WildCat]

cuts in an angle with molten material around it, and the other cuts?
I've posted enough information for rational people.

The liars that make up the truth movement will never be convinced.

[~enigma~]

http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2006/07/343154.jpg

we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it.
some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters.

fine and well.

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it.

what do you think?
You mean the black slag in the picture is molten metal? Looks solid to me and I am sure others will agree. Maybe the slag was molten at one time but why do you think it is in the picture?

[twinstead]

So it appears they rushed in there and started cutting columns with torches so the columns cut with thermite would blend in.

BRILLIANT!

[Disbelief]

then best dont post in here :)

thx and bye bye

Here, I will answer your question. They were cut with torches and plasma cutters.

[Myriad]

Most of the column segments in the towers were broken off at the welds by the destructive forces of the collapse. That is the likely cause of any observed column ends that are square and show no sign of torch cutting.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[DC]

You mean the black slag in the picture is molten metal? Looks solid to me and I am sure others will agree. Maybe the slag was molten at one time but why do you think it is in the picture?

mmhhh?? i sure dont think it is still molten, im sure it was molten , but at the time they took the picture, it was prolly not even warm enymore :/

actually i tend to belive the famouse middle cut, was indeed made with a plasma cutter. this is what 6 of my welders confirmed. but then one pointed out the other cuts, they look pretty clean, he asked how they cut that, i told him i dunno :) they talked about it, and came to the conclusion that it does not look like plasma cut.

so i wonder how they made those cuts.

[DC]

Most of the column segments in the towers were broken off at the welds by the destructive forces of the collapse. That is the likely cause of any observed column ends that are square and show no sign of torch cutting.

Respectfully,
Myriad

thx, but i have some troubles with it. the shape of the "broken off" columns. i would not expect them to have that good shape after a brake at the weldings.

[DC]

Here, I will answer your question. They were cut with torches and plasma cutters.

thx for your attempt :=)

bye bye

[phunk]

http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2006/07/343154.jpg

we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it.
some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters.

fine and well.

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it.

what do you think?

Simple, the ones with clean square ends weren't cut in the cleanup, those were the original ends of the column sections. You do understand that the columns were made of up lots of small sections bolted and lightly welded together, and that in the collapse the vast majority of failures were the bolts and welds between sections, right?

[GlennB]

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?



Perhaps their welds and bolts were snapped off during collapse and not cut at all? You know, they're just kind of "lying around".

Have you ever viewed that absolutely *massive* overhead photo of GZ? The hi-res one that runs to about 5gb ? It's full of thousands of steel members that have simply snapped their connections.

[Disbelief]

thx for your attempt :=)

bye bye

You leaving? If they weren't broken like others have stated, they were cut with torches and plasma cutters.

ETA: So Cheney, what do YOU think was done to those columns?

[DC]

Simple, the ones with clean square ends weren't cut in the cleanup, those were the original ends of the column sections. You do understand that the columns were made of up lots of small sections bolted and lightly welded together, and that in the collapse the vast majority of failures were the bolts and welds between sections, right?

as far i can see is the base plate missing. and i would say the column looks still to good that it was ripped off.

[deep]

Here, I will answer your question. They were cut with torches and plasma cutters.


You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter.


there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.
from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.
the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.
the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.

None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for your claim.

Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it".

[DC]

Perhaps their welds and bolts were snapped off during collapse and not cut at all? You know, they're just kind of "lying around".

Have you ever viewed that absolutely *massive* overhead photo of GZ? The hi-res one that runs to about 5gb ? It's full of thousands of steel members that have simply snapped their connections.

sure i know that pic, and also others.

[DC]

You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter.


there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.
from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.
the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.
the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.

None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for you claim.

Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it".

there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.
Cheney would say... So?

from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.

well thats what i thought 2, but the welders told me, when you cut it straight, you need a crane so its not falling down on ppl.
when you cant reach it with a crane, you cut it like a tree, also the reason we see a realitvely huge amount of molten material.after it fell to the side they wanted it, they cutted the last side from the "inside".

the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.

true , would like to see the other side.

the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.

i think the rescueworkers didnt mind, they wanted to save lives. i bet they found a way :)

we don't know what severed it, thats what i think about the other cuts :)

[Disbelief]

You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter.


there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.

Yet there are pictures with workers making the same cuts.


from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.


You understand incorrectly. They would be cut at an angle to control how it would come apart and to move it easier.


the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.


Why would they keep it around during cleanup or safety operations?


the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.


Ever hear of a cherry picker? Of course, you have been provided pics in other threads of just that.


None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for you claim.


Why trot out proof that I know you have seen? You will just dismiss it again.


Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it".

We do know what severed the column, you just don't believe it since it ruins your fantasy. Go spend some time with a demo crew.

[DC]

Yet there are pictures with workers making the same cuts.



You understand incorrectly. They would be cut at an angle to control how it would come apart and to move it easier.



Why would they keep it around during cleanup or safety operations?



Ever hear of a cherry picker? Of course, you have been provided pics in other threads of just that.



Why trot out proof that I know you have seen? You will just dismiss it again.



We do know what severed the column, you just don't believe it since it ruins your fantasy. Go spend some time with a demo crew.

you THINK you know, but a real critical thinker never knows for sure :)
but there are no critical thinkers on JREF, i know :)

[Myriad]

thx, but i have some troubles with it. the shape of the "broken off" columns. i would not expect them to have that good shape after a brake at the weldings.


It appears that the collapsing buildings did not care about your expectations about what their broken pieces should look like.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[16.5]

Ugh, not this again.

Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo.

Cripes.

[DC]

It appears that the collapsing buildings did not care about your expectations about what their broken pieces should look like.

Respectfully,
Myriad

oh sad, you started so well, but ended up with that post? tztztz

how do you ripp of the base plate of such a column in a downward collapse without bending the column? thats my point.

[DC]

Ugh, not this again.

Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo.

Cripes.

its on the internet, you can find it if you are interested.

[16.5]

its on the internet, you can find it if you are interested.

Yes, I guess it is.

And given the fact that you have intentionally refused to post it, it would appear that this thread is worthless.

Don't you agree?

[Drudgewire]

Ugh, not this again.

Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo.

Cripes.


And show things the way they really are instead of providing something out of context to fraudulently promote a lie? Is this your first experience with a twoofer? :p

[phunk]

Well, does anyone have details of how the base plate was attached? I suspect that it took less force to rip off the plate than to bend the column, given the numerous examples of it happening...

[DC]

weill pls do link to the uncropped version, i dont have a link ready, and didnt find it on google yet, im sure you can see even better what i ment on the other pictures.

[deep]

Yet there are pictures with workers making the same cuts.


This is an example of weak induction - "there are pictures of workers cutting other beams, therefore all severed beams were cut by workers."


You understand incorrectly. They would be cut at an angle to control how it would come apart and to move it easier.


Source, please?


Why would they keep it around during cleanup or safety operations?


I don't know, and I don't care. If the beam was present in the picture, it could potentially support your argument. I was noting that it was not there, so it can provide no such support.


Why trot out proof that I know you have seen? You will just dismiss it again.(...) We do know what severed the column, you just don't believe it since it ruins your fantasy. Go spend some time with a demo crew.


You won't "trot out proof" because you don't have any proof. The only reason you "know" is because you're apparently not aware that your argument is invalid. Either that, or you simply don't care.

There is not enough evidence to say how this beam was cut, one way or the other.

[DC]

Well, does anyone have details of how the base plate was attached? I suspect that it took less force to rip off the plate than to bend the column, given the numerous examples of it happening...

it was welded afaik, and the problem is not the force, but the direction.
how do you turn of your shoes while you are standing and without "bending" your leg?

[X]

you THINK you know, but a real critical thinker never knows for sure


How do you know?


The picture linked to below has been posted here before.
As such, I'm not going to bother loading it onto photobucket.
It shows some vertical columns being cut in the same way the one in the OP was cut.
http://layscience.net/files/wtc/9.jpg

[mrbaracuda]

Ugh, not this again.

Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo.

Cripes.

Do you doubt the high quality reporting of indymedia? You know, like this gem (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341775.shtml).

[Myriad]

oh sad, you started so well, but ended up with that post? tztztz

how do you ripp of the base plate of such a column in a downward collapse without bending the column? thats my point.


And my point is, your expectations of how the broken pieces should look are utterly irrelevant. It's a pretty important point, in current context, as your expectations appear to be the entire basis for your argument.

Engineers have calculated that in most cases the welds would break before the columns reached their elastic limit. I'm not qualified to repeat their calculations, but why should I doubt them, on the basis of your expectations backed up with no calculations or relevant experience at all?

And for that matter, how do you know the broken-off column is not bent?

Respectfully,
Myriad

[DC]

;3920743']How do you know?


The picture linked to below has been posted here before.
As such, I'm not going to bother loading it onto photobucket.
It shows some vertical columns being cut in the same way the one in the OP was cut.
http://layscience.net/files/wtc/9.jpg

i was actually pointing to the cuts that didnt look like that famous one :)

the one you present will most prolly end up like the famous one. cut in an angle with the once molten material around it.

[DC]

And my point is, your expectations of how the broken pieces should look are utterly irrelevant. It's a pretty important point, in current context, as your expectations appear to be the entire basis for your argument.

Engineers have calculated that in most cases the welds would break before the columns reached their elastic limit. I'm not qualified to repeat their calculations, but why should I doubt them, on the basis of your expectations backed up with no calculations or relevant experience at all?

And for that matter, how do you know the broken-off column is not bent?

Respectfully,
Myriad

http://www.european911citizensjury.com/WTC-Evidence%20of%20thermite%20on%20column-indicated-b.jpg

the column to the right of the rescue worker in the middle, not bend, straight cut, no molten material around it.

how was that cut? broken in collapse?

[DC]

why do those cuts look so diffrent?

[X]

It doesn't look cut.

It looks like the end of a column, where another column would have been attached.

The exception is the one on the extreme right.
It's out of focus and slightly obscured, so I can't make any call on it between not cut/torch cut.

[chillzero]

why do those cuts look so diffrent?

Do you have photos of them from the other side? You know, the side where the majority of any 'cut' surface is revealed?

[Porkpie Hat]

You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter.


there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.
from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.
the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.
the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.

None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for your claim.

Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it".As someone who has made thousands of torch cuts through out my career I can attest to this particular cut as being typical of every torch cut I've personally made or witnessed.

Notching is clearly present along the kerf of this cut as well as characteristic slag formation which can be seen in any and all cuts made with oxyacetylene/Mapp gas/propane etc...

My source for this would be every welding/fabrication shop on this big blue orb.

[Disbelief]

This is an example of weak induction - "there are pictures of workers cutting other beams, therefore all severed beams were cut by workers."


So, your logic is that all of the pictures showing workers cuting columns at an angle means that this one was cut with thermite since we don't have a picture of this particular column being cut. Since we have pictures of workers cutting beams just like shown in the pictures, it is up to you to provide some proof that columns like this can even be cut using thermite. So far, you and all of the TM fail.


Source, please?


Well, besides Cheney telling you above, I have personal work experience from supervising iron workers and millwrights. DGM also has personal experience from doing this type of work. However, will the word of a fellow truther help?

http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11disinfo-rense.html


I don't know, and I don't care. If the beam was present in the picture, it could potentially support your argument. I was noting that it was not there, so it can provide no such support.


Of course you don't care, because this helps you live in your little fantasy world. They would be moving the material ASAP, and not worry about what others thought.


You won't "trot out proof" because you don't have any proof. The only reason you "know" is because you're apparently not aware that your argument is invalid. Either that, or you simply don't care.


No, because I have seen you in action plenty of times and it is futile. You cling to every little scrap, hoping against hope that it will actually prove something. Just look at the other recent thread where this same info was discussed.


There is not enough evidence to say how this beam was cut, one way or the other.

No, there is plenty of evidence to prove how this beam was cut. Once again, show us some evidence of the same type of beam being cut like the picture, but use thermite.

ETA: Thanks Porkpie. I am sure that deep will give you no credit, but I have always appreciated the work of a good man with a torch or welding rod.

[A W Smith]

http://www.european911citizensjury.com/WTC-Evidence%20of%20thermite%20on%20column-indicated-b.jpg

the column to the right of the rescue worker in the middle, not bend, straight cut, no molten material around it.

how was that cut? broken in collapse?

That column to the right was not cut. it was welded around the perimeter at that splice. there were no base plates on that particular shape. The slag as you call it was the result of a through cut with an oxy acetylene lance. You cut through one side and then extend the lance into the crevice to cut through the far side so as not to endanger yourself when the column moves to that leeward side.

http://www.debunking911.com/cut.jpg

http://www.topflange.com/images/WTC130.jpg

more cleanup photos here

http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/wtc/

[Drudgewire]

No, there is plenty of evidence to prove how this beam was cut. Once again, show us some evidence of the same type of beam being cut like the picture, but use thermite.


Well, there's that demonstration from Burning Man which looked exactly li...




...oh, wait. :p

[DC]

Do you have photos of them from the other side? You know, the side where the majority of any 'cut' surface is revealed?

they are hollow, you need to cut it from the outside from atleast 3 sides.

[DC]

That column to the right was not cut. it was welded around the perimeter at that splice. there were no base plates on that particular shape. The slag as you call it was the result of a through cut with an oxy acetylene lance. You cut through one side and then extend the lance into the crevice to cut through the far side so as not to endanger yourself when the column moves to that leeward side.

http://www.debunking911.com/cut.jpg

http://www.topflange.com/images/WTC130.jpg

more cleanup photos here

http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/wtc/

lol? do want to tell me you cut 2 sides from one side?

[Porkpie Hat]

ETA: Thanks Porkpie. I am sure that deep will give you no credit, but I have always appreciated the work of a good man with a torch or welding rod.You're welcome and thank you Disbelief. I've went beyond my humble roots and now work as a welding inspector so I see these things every day. I'm sure you're right about Deep...these people need to keep the fantasy alive at any cost.

[lapman]

DC, what are the two men in the upper right doing?

[chillzero]

they are hollow, you need to cut it from the outside from atleast 3 sides.

uh ... yeah...

Did you think I was asking for a photo taken from inside the columns??? :confused: :boggled:

I would like a photo taken from the other side of the columns you pointed at, so that the slated side (where the alleged cuts are) are toward the camera, not obscured by the high side of the column.

[Porkpie Hat]

they are hollow, you need to cut it from the outside from atleast 3 sides.If I'm looking at the same thing you are they in fact are not. The lateral beams are shaped like a tee with evidence of a beam welded to the side of it about half way down in this shot. That beam appears to have broken off along the heat affected zones beside the weld itself. Also, if you look along the top of this beam there are two upside down "L" shapes which look to me like evidence of pieces of steel tack welded for use in alignment.

Not really all that surprising they wouldn't show the same characteristics of a torch cut beam.

[deep]

So, your logic is that all of the pictures showing workers cuting (sic) columns at an angle means that this one was cut with thermite since we don't have a picture of this particular column being cut. Since we have pictures of workers cutting beams just like shown in the pictures, it is up to you to provide some proof that columns like this can even be cut using thermite. So far, you and all of the TM fail.


It's not my logic; it's logic. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with it.

I would also suggest you read my previous messages again, because I haven't said the column was cut with thermite.


Of course you don't care, because this helps you live in your little fantasy world. They would be moving the material ASAP, and not worry about what others thought.


Since you've already demonstrated that you don't even understand basic logic, I'm not surprised by your response.

Not sure why I waste my time explaining, but I don't care because there is only one scenario in which the cut beam would be relevant, and that would be to support the argument that the column was cut with a torch. Since it's not there, it cannot support that argument; however, its absence is not a detriment to either argument.


No, there is plenty of evidence to prove how this beam was cut. Once again, show us some evidence of the same type of beam being cut like the picture, but use thermite.


I do not have enough evidence to prove how it was cut, and neither do you. If you actually read my previous posts, you would know this already, and you wouldn't be wasting everyone's bandwidth with nonsensical responses.

[A W Smith]

lol? do want to tell me you cut 2 sides from one side?


You have no clue do you? ask your five welders. you cut one side first and expand an inspection hole large enough to insert your lance (you do know what a lance is don't you? a long cutting tube) you insert and rest your lance on the inspection hole and cut the far side of the hollow column. It is less physical strain on the cutter to use the rest stop especially when cutting through a 3 inch thick section.

I might add, Some core columns at the lower basement levels where built up from three slab layers. How do you think they would access and cut the center 3 1/2 inch slab?

[A W Smith]

It's not my logic; it's logic. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with it.

I would also suggest you read my previous messages again, because I haven't said the column was cut with thermite.





Since you've already demonstrated that you don't even understand basic logic, I'm not surprised by your response.

Not sure why I waste my time explaining, but I don't care because there is only one scenario in which the cut beam would be relevant, and that would be to support the argument that the column was cut with a torch. Since it's not there, it cannot support that argument; however, its absence is not a detriment to either argument.





I do not have enough evidence to prove how it was cut, and neither do you. If you actually read my previous posts, you would know this already, and you wouldn't be wasting everyone's bandwidth with nonsensical responses.


God of the gaps logical fallacy (http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/God_of_the_Gaps_Fallacy). IE if you cant prove it was cut with a torch. than all other possible scenarios are just as valid. which is false and illogical.

1) no clean up worker, fireman, or inspector expressed surprise or alarm when all these cuts were allegedly exposed during the clean up

2) There are numerous photos of clean up crews making similar cuts on other columns at that level

3) there is a video of a supervisor describing the cuts about to be made on one of the last remaining trident perimeter columns

4) there is a complete lack of proof for a CD device capable of cutting a such a large vertical column made up of slabs of steel 3 inches thick while in service. Silently.

[Pardalis]

there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.

There are in front, anyway it doesn't prove anything.



from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.


Where did you get that understanding? could it be mistaken?


the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.



Which proves what?



the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.



Again, there are people in front. Doesn't prove anything.

None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for your claim.

It doesn't prove anything nefarious happened also.

Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it".

Not another 9/11 "agnostic". :rolleyes:

There's no reason so suspect these beams are proof of any conspiracy, unless you can prove it.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

http://www.european911citizensjury.com/WTC-Evidence%20of%20thermite%20on%20column-indicated-b.jpg

the column to the right of the rescue worker in the middle, not bend, straight cut, no molten material around it.

how was that cut? broken in collapse?

It was broken at he weld as welds should and do break when under extreme stress from disconfomities inherent in the welding process, no welder and no weld is perfect.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

It's not my logic; it's logic. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with it.

I would also suggest you read my previous messages again, because I haven't said the column was cut with thermite.





Since you've already demonstrated that you don't even understand basic logic, I'm not surprised by your response.

Not sure why I waste my time explaining, but I don't care because there is only one scenario in which the cut beam would be relevant, and that would be to support the argument that the column was cut with a torch. Since it's not there, it cannot support that argument; however, its absence is not a detriment to either argument.





I do not have enough evidence to prove how it was cut, and neither do you. If you actually read my previous posts, you would know this already, and you wouldn't be wasting everyone's bandwidth with nonsensical responses.


The column shows and intelligent cut pattern, it shows an oxygen cutting device was used on it.

It does not show an unintelligent high pressure remote oxygen cutter was used on it, as the distortion of the column would be obvious to everyone.

The column shows no physical effects of explosives, it show no physical effects of cutter charges, or high temperature aluminothermic oxygen cutters.

Controlled demolition as proposed so far in every theory has not shown to be possible and is in fact an impossibility based on the evidence at hand.

It makes me laugh that CTers as well as debunkers do not understand what evidence an Aluminothermic oxygen cutter would leave if it were actually used, it is almost comical now watching the same old tired discussions, over and over.

I wonder if people will actually test their ideas before posting nonsense, that would shorten the conversation by years.

[ElMondoHummus]

There is a plethora of proof that much steel cutting occurred at Ground Zero.
http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/2007/02/technical-widening-about-thermal.html

There is a dearth of evidence that other methods involving incendiaries or explosives were used to induce collapse.

----

Regarding the angle-cut photo in the OP: Do we not remember that the origin of that image was discussed here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=93662

... and that the photographer was there specifically to photograph the steelworkers involved in the cleanup. Forum poster Jberryhill communicated with the photographer through email and received this response:


"i do recall that the photo of the firefighters was taken almost a month after 9/11 and the cut beam in the background was almost certainly cut by a worker, not the result of 'intentional demolition.'"

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3488301#post3488301

[A W Smith]

I mentioned this last year. But if you look closely it appears to be two different columns, With the "slag" appearing on the foreground column which is angle cut in the opposite direction sloping down from the slag.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm89/AWSmith1955/twocolumns.jpg

[jaydeehess]

how do you ripp of the base plate of such a column in a downward collapse without bending the column? thats my point.

I know what did not cause it to be a supposedly clean, square break,,,, thermite.

[gumboot]

With a knife.

[DC]

You have no clue do you? ask your five welders. you cut one side first and expand an inspection hole large enough to insert your lance (you do know what a lance is don't you? a long cutting tube) you insert and rest your lance on the inspection hole and cut the far side of the hollow column. It is less physical strain on the cutter to use the rest stop especially when cutting through a 3 inch thick section.

I might add, Some core columns at the lower basement levels where built up from three slab layers. How do you think they would access and cut the center 3 1/2 inch slab?

ROFLMAO

thats not what the welders said at all.....
you have no clue :)

you would cut it from one side and then from the same side you would cut the opposite side? cmon get real......

you can just cut it from the other side lol.

but we had a good laugh, thx.

[DC]

If I'm looking at the same thing you are they in fact are not. The lateral beams are shaped like a tee with evidence of a beam welded to the side of it about half way down in this shot. That beam appears to have broken off along the heat affected zones beside the weld itself. Also, if you look along the top of this beam there are two upside down "L" shapes which look to me like evidence of pieces of steel tack welded for use in alignment.

Not really all that surprising they wouldn't show the same characteristics of a torch cut beam.

nope, there was only holow shafts and I-beams. and the I-beams was only used in the upper floors, the lower floors was hollowshafts.

[A W Smith]

ROFLMAO

thats not what the welders said at all.....
you have no clue :)

you would cut it from one side and then from the same side you would cut the opposite side? cmon get real......

you can just cut it from the other side lol.

but we had a good laugh, thx.

You are clueless. cutting from one side saves the movememnt of the man basket from one side of the column to the other.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter.


there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.



Holy mother of God...

http://greatgreengadgets.com/gadgets/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/cut-tree.jpg

What brought this tree down, deep44? There's no evidence that it was a chainsaw, since no one with a chainsaw is present in that picture.

So, what brought this tree down?

[1337m4n]

http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2006/07/343154.jpg

we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it.
some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters.

fine and well.

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it.

what do you think?

Perhaps you should contact the workers who were there. I can find you some contact information if you are indeed interested.

[MIKILLINI]

Holy mother of God...

http://greatgreengadgets.com/gadgets/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/cut-tree.jpg

What brought this tree down, deep44? There's no evidence that it was a chainsaw, since no one with a chainsaw is present in that picture.

So, what brought this tree down?

Was it Paul Bunyan? Even though his ox, Babe isn't in the photo either.

[MIKILLINI]

nope, there was only holow shafts and I-beams. and the I-beams was only used in the upper floors, the lower floors was hollowshafts.

Gee DC, do you or your friends have a clue as to why those columns are the way they are?
I'm sure your group has drawn possible conclusions, care to elaborate instead of the "some say this some say that"?

[1337m4n]

Holy mother of God...

http://greatgreengadgets.com/gadgets/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/cut-tree.jpg

What brought this tree down, deep44? There's no evidence that it was a chainsaw, since no one with a chainsaw is present in that picture.

So, what brought this tree down?

Thermite.

[Bobert]

you THINK you know, but a real critical thinker never knows for sure :)
but there are no critical thinkers on JREF, i know :)
Why do you stay around and post 2500 times on a forum that you seem to disagree with soooo much?
BTW 2500 posts in 5 MONTHS.

[A W Smith]

You have no clue do you? ask your five welders. you cut one side first and expand an inspection hole large enough to insert your lance (you do know what a lance is don't you? a long cutting tube) you insert and rest your lance on the inspection hole and cut the far side of the hollow column. It is less physical strain on the cutter to use the rest stop especially when cutting through a 3 inch thick section.

I might add, Some core columns at the lower basement levels where built up from three slab layers. How do you think they would access and cut the center 3 1/2 inch slab?

ROFLMAO

thats not what the welders said at all.....
you have no clue :)

you would cut it from one side and then from the same side you would cut the opposite side? cmon get real......

you can just cut it from the other side lol.

but we had a good laugh, thx.
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc4.html

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm89/AWSmith1955/burnthrough.jpg

[Newtons Bit]

Careful A W Smith. You keep providing pictorial evidence that shows he doesn't know what he's talking about. You might break him.

[Foolmewunz]

http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc4.html

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm89/AWSmith1955/burnthrough.jpg

But... but.... DC's five welders would've gone to the other side and cut it. Of course, they'd have to have been the infamous Keebler Elves to have somehow gotten to the other side.

DC are you aware that you're talking down to welders on this site, based on three or four questions you asked someone? Just who were your "five welders" and where did you find them?

[X]

I find it ironic that Deep44 demands pictures of that exact column being cut to prove it wasn't therm?te, but demands none to prove it was...

[lee5]

http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc4.html

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm89/AWSmith1955/burnthrough.jpg


Don't bother, Deep44 will just do to this....

:boxedin::covereyes:covereyes:covereyes:covereyes

[mrbaracuda]

Thermite.

I second that! Pesky trees.
Did you know that Bush is in on the rainforest?

[Quad4_72]

Hasn't this been explained to the twoofers like 7 years ago?

[lee5]

Hasn't this been explained to the twoofers like 7 years ago?

I think the problem goes something like this....

Twoofer makes claim on web site A
Claim is debunked on web site B
A "new" twoofer see's claim of web site A
Twoofer fails to see web site B
Both "new" twoofer and "old" twoofer still believe in web site A

:rolleyes:

[DGM]

"Truthers":

Please reproduce the same cut with something other than a torch. It must look the same. I can do it any time (If you want to come to MA I'll demonstrate, for a price (your not worth a freebie)).

If you can't STFU. Fair enough?

[WildCat]

Don't bother, Deep44 will just do to this....

:boxedin::covereyes:covereyes:covereyes:covereyes
He's probably still looking for the 5 basement levels of WTC 7, lol.

[pomeroo]

Hasn't this been explained to the twoofers like 7 years ago?



When I first entered the debunking game, I saw a video (I think it was produced by Abby Scott) that showed Mark explaining to some loon that the cuts were made by an oxyacetylene torch. Same damn photo!

Plus ca change and all that.

[MIKILLINI]

Thermite.

Did it make a sound if no one was there when it detonated?:D

[DC]

http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/wtc4.html

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm89/AWSmith1955/burnthrough.jpg

ok sorry, i stand corrected.
i was wrong, you was correct.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Dictator Cheney and Deep44, what do you think a steel girder cut by a torch looks like?

Can you show us a girder that hes been cut by therm*te?

Can you show us differences between the two?

[DC]

Dictator Cheney and Deep44, are there any photographs of cut girders from ground zero that you fell were legitimately cut by welders working with the cleanup crews?

Could you show us such a photograph and point out the differences between that and the particular cut you are disputing here?

the famous one, i also posted in the OP, i think they are normal cut, i always wondered the amount of molten metal at the cuts, while after seeing they indeed did cut from inside out, its clear now.

i still wonder the other cuts, that look completly diffrent.

[mrbaracuda]

nbuEQpSNxiE

[WildCat]

the famous one, i also posted in the OP, i think they are normal cut, i always wondered the amount of molten metal at the cuts, while after seeing they indeed did cut from inside out, its clear now.

i still wonder the other cuts, that look completly diffrent.
Maybe you can show us what a cut from thermite or explosives looks like? No one in the "truth" movement seems to be able to do so. You could be the first DC!

[DC]

Maybe you can show us what a cut from thermite or explosives looks like? No one in the "truth" movement seems to be able to do so. You could be the first DC!

why ? do you belive they have been cut with thermite or explosives?

[WildCat]

why ? do you belive they have been cut with thermite or explosives?
No, but the truth movement does.

But it's funny, isn't it, that none of them have the slightest idea what it looks like when something is cut with thermite or explosives!

You say you're not sure, don't be shy DC! Start investigating!

[Drudgewire]

Maybe you can show us what a cut from thermite or explosives looks like? No one in the "truth" movement seems to be able to do so. You could be the first DC!

Again, I'll bring up Burning Man. It wasn't that the geniuses who set out to make a presentation couldn't get thermite or a piece of steel which killed the idea, it was the fact that when they actually tried it they realized their stupid demonstration would conclusively demonstrate what an idiotic theory thermite in the towers is.

Why? Because the results couldn't look less like what the proponents of said theory seem to imagine it does.

[Pushkin]

ok sorry, i stand corrected.
i was wrong, you was correct.

Attaboy DC. I for one applaud your honesty if only all truthers could admit their mistakes.

for the record it now seems as if you were trying to bluff people with your knowledge of welding or the knowledge of your welder acquaintances. do you make a habit of this?

[DC]

Attaboy DC. I for one applaud your honesty if only all truthers could admit their mistakes.

for the record it now seems as if you were trying to bluff people with your knowledge of welding or the knowledge of your welder acquaintances. do you make a habit of this?

WTF attaboy? ATTA?????? or do i get that wrong???????

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Maybe you can show us what a cut from thermite or explosives looks like? No one in the "truth" movement seems to be able to do so. You could be the first DC!

I doubt very much any person who believes that CD with such devices, was possible will ever show a picture of what shaped charges, explosives, thermite-thermate or thermite-thermate induced oxygen cutting devices actually do to steel, to do so would destroy the theories from the instant the photo was shown.

When you have people who will not put their Ideas to the test, you only have idiots on the INTERNET.

Every form of energy used to affect the physical nature of a solid leaves evidence of it's usage on the solid mass.

The only thing I see in the photos from the world trade center time and time again are torsion induced fractures, and intelligent oxygen cutting, by human beings with oxygen cutters.

Unintelligent oxygen cutters Indicated by high temperature metal oxidation, have to work so fast and violent they literally blow the metal apart at high temperature, in a very messy and distinctive way that is UN mistakable.

YOU can tell if they are used by the splatter that they leave of both Fe 304, and Fe, as well as the distortion of the metal that was cut from the high heat and pressure.

There is no way to mistake such devices with normal oxygen cutting, Monroe effect, or high explosives, each leaves its own evidence in the physical universe on the material to which the energy is applied.

[DC]

no bluff about welders, they was suprised when i showed them the picture, but after all they are no rescueworkers, and dont have to cut steel on places like ground zero.

and i never bluffed about my knowledge in enything.

[TheRedWorm]

WTF attaboy? ATTA?????? or do i get that wrong???????


Language barrier. An attaboy is like saying "way to go!" or "nice job!"

[DC]

Language barrier. An attaboy is like saying "way to go!" or "nice job!"

oh thx :) im sorry then ^^

[Pushkin]

DC sorry for the confusion I was congratulating you for being honest when you said you were incorrect about the cuts.

but I'm afraid it throws up a decision for you. when informed that a column could be cut on two sides by just cutting through one and cutting from the inside of another you seemed as if you had expert opinion to the contrary
ROFLMAO

thats not what the welders said at all.....
you have no clue :)

you would cut it from one side and then from the same side you would cut the opposite side? cmon get real......

you can just cut it from the other side lol.

but we had a good laugh, thx.

did you consult with other welders and if so will you also be telling them they are wrong or were you bluffing?
I assume as you say you havnt been bluffing you will be telling your 'welders' that they are wrong as well.....

[DC]

DC sorry for the confusion I was congratulating you for being honest when you said you were incorrect about the cuts.

but I'm afraid it throws up a decision for you. when informed that a column could be cut on two sides by just cutting through one and cutting from the inside of another you seemed as if you had expert opinion to the contrary


did you consult with other welders and if so will you also be telling them they are wrong or were you bluffing?
I assume as you say you havnt been bluffing you will be telling your 'welders' that they are wrong as well.....

Certified TIG/MIG/MAG "welders"

and i showed them the picture and they was suprised to see that.

and im not sure if they was wrong. cause i think the cuts that look diffrent than the famous cut, are made from the outside and the famous one and those that look like it (alot slack on the outside) are made from the inside or one side.

[defaultdotxbe]

why ? do you belive they have been cut with thermite or explosives?
why? you dont think looking at steel that was verifiably cut with explosives would help you to determine how the columns at ground zero were cut? then when someone says "that column doesnt look anything like it was cut with explosives" you could say "oh yeah, well this one was cut with explosives and looks just like it!"

although explosives wont work, explosives make a clean cut (even cleaner than the pic in the OP) with no slag

tZRAbUcUkIc

[funk de fino]

Certified TIG/MIG/MAG "welders"

and i showed them the picture and they was suprised to see that.

and im not sure if they was wrong. cause i think the cuts that look diffrent than the famous cut, are made from the outside and the famous one and those that look like it (alot slack on the outside) are made from the inside or one side.

What do welders generally do DC?

[HawksFan]

Drink a lotta beer? :D

[DC]

What do welders generally do DC?

Google it, you can find alot about what they do.

[ElMondoHummus]

What do welders generally do DC?

Drink a lotta beer? :D

Take breaks and ogle women on the streets?

Oh, sorry, that's road construction workers... :o

[defaultdotxbe]

Google it, you can find alot about what they do.
i think funks point is that someone who is a weldor by trade will probably do more welding than cutting, and may not be as familiar with standard practices

[DC]

i think funks point is that someone who is a weldor by trade will probably do more welding than cutting, and may not be as familiar with standard practices

oh really?
i wrote that already in this topic :) so i had to assume he does not know what welders do.

[funk de fino]

oh really?
i wrote that already in this topic :) so i had to assume he does not know what welders do.

So, you realised the stupidity of asking the welders. I just wanted to make sure. I know what they do. I knew you would not answer.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

So, you realised the stupidity of asking the welders. I just wanted to make sure. I know what they do. I knew you would not answer.

Welders do not use Oxygen lances, they leave to rough a cut to weld to only demolition shops use them.
Welders use band saws, grinders, sheers, or smaller torches than iron workers, or demolition shops to make the welding process more efficient.

I have done both welding and demolition, even stone cutting with an oxygen lance actually melting the stone into to remove the metal driven into it.

[DC]

we mostly use Plasmacutters and oxygen cutters when they have to cut something. but oc whenever possible we want a propper cut, so indeed bandsaws, lasercutters etc are used.

[Mobyseven]

It's not my logic; it's logic. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with it.

[...]

Since you've already demonstrated that you don't even understand basic logic, I'm not surprised by your response.

Boy. This takes me back.

I am reminded of a thread from the second incarnation of the Loose Change forums, in which this very topic was being discussed. In that particular case, the entire argument rested upon a blatant case of affirming the consequent, and I told them so only to be met with the internet equivalent of a vacant look and the slow restatement of the same fallacious argument that resembles that wonderful Western pastime of speaking slower and louder to anybody who fails to understand you the first time because the only speak Tamil, not moron. So I explained to them the fallacy of affirming the consequent; I explained why it was a logical fallacy; I demonstrated how their argument was a textbook example of said fallacy...

...I was told that they weren't interested in a logic lesson. In retrospect, that seems ironically obvious.

Now, deep44, I'm a little bit curious as to exactly how you think those columns were cut. See, I look and I see that a deductive argument isn't going to hold it's own here. Inductive reasoning is a maybe, but again not really the most appropriate in this situation. When I examine the facts of the matter, it boils down to the following: The beams in the picture are visually consistent with a combination of beams that broke apart during the collapse and beams that have been cut by cleanup crews; It is an established fact that cleanup crews at Ground Zero did indeed cut beams as part of their job in the aftermath of the attacks; There is nothing in the picture that is inconsistent with the beams having been cut by the cleanup crews, nor is there any evidence extraneous to the picture that would suggest an alternate method of cutting. It is therefore reasonable to use abductive reasoning to conclude that the beams in that picture were most likely cut by the cleanup crews.

Please, deep44 - enlighten me with your take on the matter.

[leftysergeant]

there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.

Totally wrong. Look to the right of the cut column. At the end of a lying column, you will notice a pair of Carhart over-alls. This is a welder bending over with his back to the camera. In the uncropped photo, there is another welder similarly dressed standing on the other end of that column.

the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.
[/LIST]

Totally wrong. There are two workers standing above the heads of the fire fighters in the uncropped picture. Behind the workers are standing columns surrounded by debris. The columns were cut as the surrounding debris was removed. At the time that the column was cut, it was about flush with the surrounding top of the debris pile. They are, in this pic, working toward the background, and the higher debris They cleared the site in layers. It was the only way feasible.

[ElMondoHummus]

there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.

Totally wrong. Look to the right of the cut column. At the end of a lying column, you will notice a pair of Carhart over-alls. This is a welder bending over with his back to the camera. In the uncropped photo, there is another welder similarly dressed standing on the other end of that column.


Not only is Lefty correct, but again, that picture is merely one in a series of images (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3488301#post3488301). You can easily see workers with torches actually cutting columns in other photos in the group.