Israeli produce company won't sell vegetables grown by Arab Israelis. [Archive]

Wolfman

5th August 2008, 07:51 PM

Well, its a little more complicated than that.

Under traditional Jewish law, every seven years "the earth must rest", meaning that Jews are not supposed to do any farming that year...the land is supposed to be left alone, and given a chance to recover.

For ultra-conservative Jews, this means that they will not buy or eat food that was grown by other Jews during this seventh year...because that would mean that the Jews who grew that food had violated God's law, and the food would be considered tainted.

Traditionally, during this seventh year, ultra-conservatives have insisted on eating only produce that they are certain was not grown by Jews. This meant they had two options -- to buy food grown by Arab Israelis, or to import food from outside of Israel.

So let me point out a relevant issue here...by parky's logic, since so many Orthodox Jews refuse to eat food grown by Jews, they are actually being racist towards other Jews!!!

What this company has done is found 'loopholes' in this law. For example, Jewish law says to "let the ground rest"...so they grow food in hothouses on elevated platforms, so that the food is not grown "on the ground", and the ground can still "rest". Or they can store food during the year before this, and then sell that food during the year they rest.

As to the rest of it...is this racist? If a Canadian store declares "We only sell Canadian-made goods", are they discriminating against all other nations? If an American store proclaims "We only sell organically grown food", are they discriminating against all farmers who don't grow their food organically?

I'd personally consider this decision regretable; but as I said, if the decision to sell only Jewish-grown produce makes them racist against Arab Israelis, then the policy of eating only produce that was not grown by Jews likewise makes them racist against themselves!

ddt

5th August 2008, 08:18 PM

Under traditional Jewish law, every seven years "the earth must rest", meaning that Jews are not supposed to do any farming that year...the land is supposed to be left alone, and given a chance to recover.

For ultra-conservative Jews, this means that they will not buy or eat food that was grown by other Jews during this seventh year...because that would mean that the Jews who grew that food had violated God's law, and the food would be considered tainted.

It makes you wonder how they ever survived. Fasting for a month, okay, but where did they traditionally get their food during this seventh year? From the Ammonites or the Moabites, whom they should slay according to their own scriptures? :eye-poppi This is not a trick question; Shmita is mentioned in the Torah.

It seems again an instance of a bronze-age law that made sense in the time - to counter negative effects of over-cultivating the land - but not anymore. Techniques like crop rotating and fertilization have made such measures superfluous.

Thunder

5th August 2008, 08:18 PM

Tsukasa Buddha

5th August 2008, 09:16 PM

gdnp

5th August 2008, 09:37 PM

I wonder if they will also refuse to purchase produce picked by Arab workers. I would guess not.

As far as the law goes, it would seem to make more sense to leave 1/7th of the fields fallow each year. Then again, no one ever said that religious texts had to make sense. Like the prohibition of serving chicken in its mother's milk.

Madalch

5th August 2008, 09:42 PM

Like the prohibition of serving chicken in its mother's milk.

That prohibition makes sense, actually, when you think about the amount of time wasted by Bronze Age farmers in trying to milk their hens to get enough milk to seethe an egg in.

Bud Fox

5th August 2008, 09:43 PM

[URL]Of course, it would be anti-Semitic, to call these Israeli Jews "racist"...now wouldn't it?

Nice strawman.

Most Jews are quite well aware that we're quite capable of being racist. It's part of the human condition, you know........

Wolfman

5th August 2008, 10:09 PM

um....they dont want to buy produce from Arabs because they dont want to support Arab farms. it has nothing to do with the 1 in 7 years rule.

nice try..though.

this is racism pure and simple...and it is sad to see Jews defending racism.
Directly quoted from the article:
According to Jewish law, every seventh year the earth must rest and no crops can be grown. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews use foreign-grown produce during this sabbatical year in order to avoid using crops grown by Jews.
So again -- is it your argument that these Jews are racist against themselves, because they refuse to eat crops grown by Jews?

a_unique_person

5th August 2008, 10:33 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1008424.html

Of course, it would be anti-Semitic, to call these Israeli Jews "racist"...now wouldn't it?

If this is not immediately protested and stopped by the Israeli public, then the Arab boycott and any other boycotts of Israeli products, is justified and fair.

Whats good for the goose..is good for the gander.

Thats unless we should have one standard for Jews..and another standard for non-Jews.

Funny thing is that Haaretz has also had articles about conservative Jews leasing land to Arabs for the seventh years, so that technically they don't own it, and it can still be farmed. I'm so glad I gave up religion years ago, being a Catholic was just as nutty.

Wolfman

5th August 2008, 10:42 PM

Wolfman, that is surprisingly poor apologetics.

The difference in intention is clear. Not supporting Jewish farms in that case is discrimination based on the actions of the Jewish farmers, who are seen as violating a law. Buying from one's country is discrimination to support the self-sufficiency of the country. Not supporting Arab farmers in this case is discrimination based solely on not supporting an ethnic group.

I think we are all adult enough to figure out which discrimination is acceptable and which isn't.So refusing to buy from a particular ethnic group because "our scriptures say so" is not racist; but insisting on buying from people in your own ethic group "because we want to support our own people" is racist.

You dismissed my self-discrimination argument because it "is discrimination based on the actions of the Jewish farmers, who are seen as violating a law". In other words...if the Torah specified that they should buy food only from Jews, then you'd argue that it was acceptable discrimination, since it would be based on a belief that they'd be violating the law by doing so?

Or what about Amish (or other such reclusive groups) who may refuse to buy food grown by people not members of their community/group?

I'm not arguing that there is not discrimination. I am arguing against the whole "double standard" thing. Heck, in China, there are 56 distinct recognized minorities, groups that are ethnically quite different from the Han Chinese, despite being Chinese citizens. I work with one of those groups, the Mosuo. It is quite common within the Mosuo communities for them to intentionally buy/use only products made by other Mosuo, in order to support their own local industry and economy. There are five other minorities who live in the same area, and whom some Mosuo will refuse to buy products if they can buy those same products from a Mosuo.

Yet I've never heard anyone denouncing this process as "racist" (although it is certainly discriminatory).

For the record, I think that the entire thing is infinitely stupid. Letting the land "rest" once every seven years is not a bad idea in and of itself. But refusing to buy food grown by Jews who actually worked during that year? Its stupid, plain and simple. As are so many religious laws and beliefs.

I guess I see this in two different ways:

1) A person declares that they belong to a particular group (racial, social, political, etc.), and that they wish to support that group by buying/selling only that group's products. That means that, effectively, they "discriminate" against everyone else in the world.

2) A person declares that they belong to a particular group (racial, social, political, etc.), and that although they will generally buy/sell to people who are not part of that particular group, there are specific groups whose products they will not buy/sell.

I would consider the former "discriminatory", but not "racist". There is not one specific 'race' or 'group' singled out...it is a universal policy, applied equally to everyone. The latter, clearly, is racist.

In this case, if the company in question stated that they would not buy produce from Arab Israelis, but they would buy food from other non-Jews, then yes, I'd definitely denounce it as a blatantly racist policy. But, despite the title/emphasis of the article, that is plainly not the case. They are also refusing to buy products from everyone else who is not a Jew. This group includes Arab Israelis -- but also includes Christian Israelis, atheist Israelis, non-Jewish Africans, non-Jewish Canadians...everyone in the world who is not Jewish.

gtc

5th August 2008, 11:19 PM

Buying from one's country is discrimination to support the self-sufficiency of the country.

Care to show that it does support self-sufficiency?

Even if it does, why is promoting self-sufficiency among people of the same nationality acceptable but promoting self-sufficiency among a differently defined group of people not acceptable?

I think we are all adult enough to figure out which discrimination is acceptable and which isn't.

ha.

The Fool

5th August 2008, 11:25 PM

mrbaracuda

6th August 2008, 12:52 AM

If this is not immediately protested and stopped by the Israeli public, then the Arab boycott and any other boycotts of Israeli products, is justified and fair.
this is racism pure and simple...and it is sad to see Jews defending racism.
I think we are all adult enough to figure out which discrimination is acceptable and which isn't.

http://c.imagehost.org/0025/picard-no-facepalm.jpg

a_unique_person

6th August 2008, 03:37 AM

http://c.imagehost.org/0025/picard-no-facepalm.jpg

You are confusing a non-violent political protest and a policy of exclusion based on race.

mrbaracuda

6th August 2008, 03:52 AM

You are confusing a non-violent political protest and a policy of exclusion based on race.

http://c.imagehost.org/0025/picard-no-facepalm.jpg

Tsukasa Buddha

6th August 2008, 04:06 AM

Care to show that it does support self-sufficiency?

Um, I don't need to. I'm not making that claim, people who support farming in their own country do.

Even if it does, why is promoting self-sufficiency among people of the same nationality acceptable but promoting self-sufficiency among a differently defined group of people not acceptable?

Because the reasoning involved is different. People (generally) support farms in their own country because they don't want to be dependent on imported food in the case of war, they are concerned about human rights/health violations in other countries, and other things.

An ethnic group doesn't need to worry about those things. How could it be self-sufficient, and why would it need to be?

ha.

Yes, I forgot we were in the Politics forum.

Wolfman

6th August 2008, 04:31 AM

TB,

Since you seem to have missed it (or failed to respond), let me reiterate my main point from my response to you:
I guess I see this in two different ways:

1) A person declares that they belong to a particular group (racial, social, political, etc.), and that they wish to support that group by buying/selling only that group's products. That means that, effectively, they "discriminate" against everyone else in the world.

2) A person declares that they belong to a particular group (racial, social, political, etc.), and that although they will generally buy/sell to people who are not part of that particular group, there are specific groups whose products they will not buy/sell.

I would consider the former "discriminatory", but not "racist". There is not one specific 'race' or 'group' singled out...it is a universal policy, applied equally to everyone. The latter, clearly, is racist.

In this case, if the company in question stated that they would not buy produce from Arab Israelis, but they would buy food from other non-Jews, then yes, I'd definitely denounce it as a blatantly racist policy. But, despite the title/emphasis of the article, that is plainly not the case. They are also refusing to buy products from everyone else who is not a Jew. This group includes Arab Israelis -- but also includes Christian Israelis, atheist Israelis, non-Jewish Africans, non-Jewish Canadians...everyone in the world who is not Jewish.

Tsukasa Buddha

6th August 2008, 04:34 AM

So refusing to buy from a particular ethnic group because "our scriptures say so" is not racist; but insisting on buying from people in your own ethic group "because we want to support our own people" is racist.

By all means, dumb it down :rolleyes: .

You dismissed my self-discrimination argument because it "is discrimination based on the actions of the Jewish farmers, who are seen as violating a law". In other words...if the Torah specified that they should buy food only from Jews, then you'd argue that it was acceptable discrimination, since it would be based on a belief that they'd be violating the law by doing so?

Okay, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. In this case they are not buying from Jewish farmers because of their actions. In discriminating against Arabs, they are not buying from them based solely on the ethnicity of the farm owners.

Or what about Amish (or other such reclusive groups) who may refuse to buy food grown by people not members of their community/group?

I'm not arguing that there is not discrimination. I am arguing against the whole "double standard" thing. Heck, in China, there are 56 distinct recognized minorities, groups that are ethnically quite different from the Han Chinese, despite being Chinese citizens. I work with one of those groups, the Mosuo. It is quite common within the Mosuo communities for them to intentionally buy/use only products made by other Mosuo, in order to support their own local industry and economy. There are five other minorities who live in the same area, and whom some Mosuo will refuse to buy products if they can buy those same products from a Mosuo.

Yet I've never heard anyone denouncing this process as "racist" (although it is certainly discriminatory).

Well, this is where we get into debates on affirmative action, etc. because these groups are minorities. And I'd like to avoid that.

But in this case we are talking about Jewish people in Israel, they are hardly a minority to the comparisons are hardly apt.

For the record, I think that the entire thing is infinitely stupid. Letting the land "rest" once every seven years is not a bad idea in and of itself. But refusing to buy food grown by Jews who actually worked during that year? Its stupid, plain and simple. As are so many religious laws and beliefs.

Well, I don't know. If Jewish law says that X should not be done, and a person who claims to be Jewish does X, I would think it could be a sign that they don't take their religious laws seriously, which is rather unethical even if you don't believe in the particular religion.

I guess I see this in two different ways:

1) A person declares that they belong to a particular group (racial, social, political, etc.), and that they wish to support that group by buying/selling only that group's products. That means that, effectively, they "discriminate" against everyone else in the world.

2) A person declares that they belong to a particular group (racial, social, political, etc.), and that although they will generally buy/sell to people who are not part of that particular group, there are specific groups whose products they will not buy/sell.

I would consider the former "discriminatory", but not "racist". There is not one specific 'race' or 'group' singled out...it is a universal policy, applied equally to everyone. The latter, clearly, is racist.

Again, I think you are simplifying too much.

In this case, if the company in question stated that they would not buy produce from Arab Israelis, but they would buy food from other non-Jews, then yes, I'd definitely denounce it as a blatantly racist policy. But, despite the title/emphasis of the article, that is plainly not the case. They are also refusing to buy products from everyone else who is not a Jew. This group includes Arab Israelis -- but also includes Christian Israelis, atheist Israelis, non-Jewish Africans, non-Jewish Canadians...everyone in the world who is not Jewish.

I got that they were only Israeli products, not foreign.

And again, I think reasons matter and you are simplifying. Why would the dominant, majority ethnic group in a country need to "support its own group"?

I know, I don't want to get into affirmative action or anything, but it is sort of like the scholarship issue. Like in America, there are scholarships specifically for African Americans and Latinos. But having scholarships specifically for Caucasians would never fly.

And I'm not getting caught up in using the term racist for any of this. It's uselessly emotive.

Tsukasa Buddha

6th August 2008, 04:35 AM

TB,

Since you seem to have missed it (or failed to respond), let me reiterate my main point from my response to you:

Give me time to type, geez :p .

Wolfman

6th August 2008, 05:07 AM

TB,

The original article states, quite clearly, that these conservative Jews were generally buying their produce from outside of Israel. So a significant portion (how much is impossible to determine from this article) of the produce in question was never even grown by Arab Israelis.

One company (and that's all we're talking about, one company out of many) decided that they wanted to provide food that was grown by Jews. Now, that's not something that exactly makes me comfortable, but given the religious beliefs and strict standards for the food that ultraconservative Jews demand, it is at least understandable that they want food produced by people who both understand and respect their specific requirements.

This company, in making this decision, decided to stop buying all produce that was not produced by Jews; Arab Israelis were only one portion of this decision, and certainly don't seem to have been a motivation for doing so.

Let's make this more neutral, and take out the "Jewish" and "Arab" labels.

Let's say instead that we have a group known as ReligiousNutsInc. Their religion has specific rules, regulations, and prohibitions as to how their food should be raised and processed. They firmly believe that eating food that has does not meet these specific requirements will damage them physically or spiritually...it will be a violation of their beliefs.

Now, people who are within this religion have the best understanding of the requirements, and the highest level of reliability, so it is only normal that people from this religion prefer buying that food from fellow ReligiousNutsIncorpians. However, due to various factors, they are not able to produce enough food on their own to meet the needs of everyone in the religion.

So what do they do?

They contract out. They find other people who can supply the same food, with similar standards of care, and attention to their specific requirements. Let's say that one of the groups that supplies this food is black. Another group that supplies this food are atheists.

Then, at a later time, people within the ReligiousNutsInc religion figure out ways in which they can raise more food themselves, and they no longer need to buy food from outsiders. So they make an announcement that, from now on, all food sold by them will be produced only by other ReligiousNutsIncorpians.

Would it then be fair to turn around and say that they are racist, because they no longer accept food that is made by black people? Or would it be fair to say that they are showing religious intolerance because they no longer accept food that is made by atheists?

I'd say no.

And so far as I can tell, this is pretty much what is happening here. I'm sure that some of their imported food previously came from Canada, for example...so why does this article not trumpet their hatred and intolerance for Canadians, because they've decided to no longer buy food that was produced by Canadians?

I appreciate your concerns; and I'm not saying that their decision is one that I agree with. I simply don't agree with the OP that it demonstrates some sort of "double standard"; nor do I agree that it deserves the charge of racism.

Darth Rotor

6th August 2008, 07:03 AM

*sings*

Look for, the Union label . . .

Oh, wait, I can't sing that, it's racist. :rolleyes:

Looking at this unemotionally, the economics is bizarre. Let's assume Haaretz has all of the facts straight. You've got some citizens of a country who are being given, by one vendor/wholesailer/retailer, an embargo.

The company, which has been marketing fruits and vegetables to the ultra-Orthodox community during the shmita (sabbatical) year, announced that it will continue to operate once the year is over in effort to "support Jewish agriculture in Israel."

Let the market sort out the rest. Consider for a moment the size of the extreme Orthodox Jewish Community in Israel. Is it a large or small percentage of the Israeli population? What economic options has this company written off, due to limiting its throughput, and supplier base? What is the larger market for produce, and who then will the Arab farmers be able to sell to?

Moving further forward, are Kosher shops and delis in New York racist if they won't buy, or won't deal in, produce that isn't Kosher?

DR

BPSCG

6th August 2008, 07:12 AM

Nutjobs all of them.

Recently in my country we had to install different buttons on pedestrian crossings near synagogues because nutjob orthadox jews will not push electric operated buttons on the sabbath. They were getting flattened by cars as they dashed between the traffic in the dangerous manner that god prefers on a sabbath.

For F&#@ sake lads..... I'm sure your supernatural boss didn't mean for you to be so stupid?? Or maybe he does mean it....Is saturday afternoon in heaven the time when god settles down for a few beers and watches Jews being mown down by trucks in australia?

Bastard won't let muslims drink either....but he lets catholics get smashed. Hmmmmmm complex character this god......:biggrin:

Do you have a link to a story about the crossings buttons? Sounds almost unbelieveable. My attitude would have been, "If you don't want to press an electronic button on the sabbath, then don't; just wait until the light cycles to let you cross. You stupid :talk034:s"

mrbaracuda

6th August 2008, 07:23 AM

"You stupid :talk034:s" - BPSCG about orthodox Jews in general.

Hey, that's quite easy, isn't it? ;)

richardm

6th August 2008, 07:42 AM

:biggrin:

Do you have a link to a story about the crossings buttons? Sounds almost unbelieveable. My attitude would have been, "If you don't want to press an electronic button on the sabbath, then don't; just wait until the light cycles to let you cross. You stupid :talk034:s"

It does sound almost unbelieveable, yet I can believe it. When a large hospital was built in Israel, they went to some efforts to develop and install electric sockets that could be turned on and off using a mechanism that didn't involve doing work (I seem to recall that it was some sort of sliding affair). Wolf ovens have a "Sabbath" setting that allows you to set the oven up the night before the sabbath so that you can still cook on that day without having to press buttons to get the oven going.

Really, God must be terribly easy to fool.

For example (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9902E3DE1338F93AA25751C1A9629582 60)

Rabbi Halperin's institute has devised a special Sabbath elevator programmed to stop at designated floors so observant passengers never have to press buttons. Tsomet came up with similarly accepted machines for milking cows and operating electric-powered wheelchairs on the Sabbath. The key to many devices is a so-called grama switch, "grama" being an Aramaic word for indirect causation. Normally, a person flips a switch and directly completes an electrical circuit. In a grama system, the circuit is complete all the time, but on the Sabbath a blocking force is introduced to stop the current. When activated, the grama switch removes that block. The result: electricity by indirection, which the scholars say is permitted.

mrbaracuda

6th August 2008, 07:51 AM

Uh, isn't turning your door knob or a key also 'work'? OMG, how do Jews enter their homes on Sabbath? HOW?

Mycroft

6th August 2008, 08:14 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1008424.html

Of course, it would be anti-Semitic, to call these Israeli Jews "racist"...now wouldn't it?

No. Why would you say that?

[URL]
If this is not immediately protested and stopped by the Israeli public, then the Arab boycott and any other boycotts of Israeli products, is justified and fair.

No, that makes no sense.

Whats good for the goose..is good for the gander.

The article describes one company who apparently markets to a very small subset of Jewish people. You're suggesting that an appropriate response would be for all Arabs to boycot all Israelis?

That's like saying that because Nation of Islam preaches hatred against white people that it's okay for all white churches to preach hatred of black people.

No, it doesn't work that way.

Thats unless we should have one standard for Jews..and another standard for non-Jews.

One standard is to condemn racism wherever you find it. Your standard, exhibited in thread after thread, is to find one small group of Jews who do something you don't like and then to smear all Jews for it.

ddt

6th August 2008, 08:17 AM

Uh, isn't turning your door knob or a key also 'work'? OMG, how do Jews enter their homes on Sabbath? HOW?

It seems that it isn't 'work' in general, but that there is a specific injunction against operating electrical circuits. How this can have been foreseen in the Torah escapes me - maybe someone better versed in (orthodox) Jewish rules can enlighten us. :)

My mom had, before WW2, orthodox Jewish neighbours. They used to drop by at Sabbath to ask someone to turn on the light for them. Fortunately for them, doorbells at that time were mainly of the mechanical type. :)

luchog

6th August 2008, 03:13 PM

Let's say instead that we have a group known as ReligiousNutsInc. Their religion has specific rules, regulations, and prohibitions as to how their food should be raised and processed. They firmly believe that eating food that has does not meet these specific requirements will damage them physically or spiritually...it will be a violation of their beliefs.
This example actually applies quite well to certain radical Seventh Day Adventist splinter groups. They have to maintain their bodily purity, in order to achieve spiritual purity; and that comes down to growing their own food organically whenever possible, and sticking with a strictly vegan, or at least vegetarian, diet.

mrbaracuda

6th August 2008, 03:55 PM

This example actually applies quite well to certain radical Seventh Day Adventist splinter groups. They have to maintain their bodily purity, in order to achieve spiritual purity; and that comes down to growing their own food organically whenever possible, and sticking with a strictly vegan, or at least vegetarian, diet.

How very racist!

NobbyNobbs

6th August 2008, 04:11 PM

Okay, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. In this case they are not buying from Jewish farmers because of their actions. In discriminating against Arabs, they are not buying from them based solely on the ethnicity of the farm owners.

But that's simply not the case. It's not that they are no longer buying from Arabs, it's that they are no longer buying from non-Jews. Big difference.

I like to buy produce grown locally. The overwhelming majority of growers in this region are caucasian. Am I racist?

mrbaracuda

6th August 2008, 04:13 PM

I like to buy produce grown locally. The overwhelming majority of growers in this region are caucasian. Am I racist?

Not only are you a serious case of a closet racist, but also discriminating against those outside your area!
See, this is why free choices should be outlawed! And while you're at it, take free speech right with it! Or are you a fascist capitalist?

Thunder

6th August 2008, 05:27 PM

But that's simply not the case. It's not that they are no longer buying from Arabs, it's that they are no longer buying from non-Jews. Big difference.

I like to buy produce grown locally. The overwhelming majority of growers in this region are caucasian. Am I racist?

it depends. if you are secretly only buying local produce because you know that is is grown mostly by whites, and thats your real reason for doing it, then you are a racist.

we are talking here are about israeli jews choosing not to buy produce from fellow israeli citizens, not for the quality of the produce or the price, but just because of the religion and ethnicity of the growers.

that is as racist as racism gets.

Thunder

6th August 2008, 05:31 PM

No. Why would you say that?

No, that makes no sense.

The article describes one company who apparently markets to a very small subset of Jewish people. You're suggesting that an appropriate response would be for all Arabs to boycot all Israelis?

That's like saying that because Nation of Islam preaches hatred against white people that it's okay for all white churches to preach hatred of black people.

No, it doesn't work that way.

One standard is to condemn racism wherever you find it. Your standard, exhibited in thread after thread, is to find one small group of Jews who do something you don't like and then to smear all Jews for it.

if the israeli people refuse to shop at this supermarket, and act like the liberal democrats that they claim to be, i will proudly post that article.

but if the israelis accept the racist and anti-arab policies of this market, and shop there, i will then assume that the israeli people have spoken, and they have said that it is ok for a nation to boycott food or products based on the religion or race of those who produce them.

if it is ok for jews to boycott products made by arabs...then it is ok for arabs to boycott products made for jews. you do see that..dont you?

how could anyone honestly argue that it is ok for jews to boycott arab products...but not for arabs to boycott jewish products?

gtc

6th August 2008, 06:48 PM

Um, I don't need to. I'm not making that claim, people who support farming in their own country do.

Fair enough. But you do seem to be claiming that one is immoral and the other is not. Am I right?

Because the reasoning involved is different. People (generally) support farms in their own country because they don't want to be dependent on imported food in the case of war, they are concerned about human rights/health violations in other countries, and other things.

An ethnic group doesn't need to worry about those things. How could it be self-sufficient, and why would it need to be?

But surely national divisions can be just as arbitrary as ethnic divisions? I can't see why a Canadian in Windsor, Ontario buying from someone in British Columbia instead of from their neighbour in Detroit can be considered different from someone buying from a local of the same ethnic, religious or cultural background.

Wolfman

6th August 2008, 06:50 PM

gtc

6th August 2008, 06:56 PM

:biggrin:

Do you have a link to a story about the crossings buttons? Sounds almost unbelieveable. My attitude would have been, "If you don't want to press an electronic button on the sabbath, then don't; just wait until the light cycles to let you cross. You stupid :talk034:s"

Here is one (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20938465-5001021,00.html). The New South Wales state authority responsible for roads (RTA) was asked to reprogram the lights so that they give regular periods for people to cross the roads (this is common at busy intersections). They said it would delay traffic so they came up with this more expensive plan.

if the israeli people refuse to shop at this supermarket, and act like the liberal democrats that they claim to be, i will proudly post that article.

but if the israelis accept the racist and anti-arab policies of this market, and shop there, i will then assume that the israeli people have spoken, and they have said that it is ok for a nation to boycott food or products based on the religion or race of those who produce them.

The problem is that you are assuming that the small number of people who shop at this market are representative of Israeli and/or Jewish sentiment and are shopping there in order to boycott arabs (instead of say, supporting Jews or because it is cheaper, closer or better produce). It would be like saying that Americans are racist because some people are in the KKK.

Thunder

6th August 2008, 07:36 PM

Parky,

Not that I really expect to get a rational answer from you, but I'll ask you again:

Since the article very clearly states that ultra-orthodox Jews refused to buy any food that was grown by other Jews during the seventh year, does that not, according to your argument, make them racist against their own people?

every 7th year jews are supposed to let their land grow untilled. this is why they dont buy from jews every 7th year. it has nothing to do with animosity or hatred of other jews.

the boycotting of arab agriculture is all about hating arabs, their culture, and their people.

...please don't play stupid.

Thunder

6th August 2008, 07:38 PM

Here is one (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20938465-5001021,00.html). The New South Wales state authority responsible for roads (RTA) was asked to reprogram the lights so that they give regular periods for people to cross the roads (this is common at busy intersections). They said it would delay traffic so they came up with this more expensive plan.

The problem is that you are assuming that the small number of people who shop at this market are representative of Israeli and/or Jewish sentiment and are shopping there in order to boycott arabs (instead of say, supporting Jews or because it is cheaper, closer or better produce). It would be like saying that Americans are racist because some people are in the KKK.

if there was a Home Depot in Vermont that flew a Nazi flag, i would expect the people of Vermont to rise up and either utterly boycott that Home Depot, or rip down that flag. if instead, thousands of folks continued to shop there as if the nazi flag was no big deal, i would have a very very bad opinion of the people of Vermont.

Wolfman

6th August 2008, 09:42 PM

every 7th year jews are supposed to let their land grow untilled. this is why they dont buy from jews every 7th year. it has nothing to do with animosity or hatred of other jews.

the boycotting of arab agriculture is all about hating arabs, their culture, and their people.

...please don't play stupid.
The article also clearly states that, "Many ultra-Orthodox Jews use foreign-grown produce during this sabbatical year in order to avoid using crops grown by Jews." Not food grown by Arab Israelis...but foreign food, imported from other countries.

So I assume that your argument is that the "boycotting of foreign foods" is all about hating all non-Jews, their cultures, and their people? Canadians, Americans, Europeans, etc.?

FireGarden

7th August 2008, 04:35 AM

It seems that it isn't 'work' in general, but that there is a specific injunction against operating electrical circuits. How this can have been foreseen in the Torah escapes me - maybe someone better versed in (orthodox) Jewish rules can enlighten us. :)

The reason I heard is that you cannot start a fire on the Sabbath. Closing a circuit may involve making a spark, which is counted as a small fire.

As for the OP,
Why stretch? It can be interpreted as insular.

An article on a survey from 2007:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html

Over half of the Jewish population in Israel believes the marriage of a Jewish woman to an Arab man is equal to national treason, according to a recent survey by the Geocartography Institute.

The survey, which was conducted for the Center Against Racism, also found that over 75 percent of participants did not approve of apartment buildings being shared between Arabs and Jews. Sixty percent of participants said they would not allow an Arab to visit their home.

Thunder

7th August 2008, 05:44 AM

there is nothing wrong with supporting farmers and growers from your own country. thats called supporting your local economy..not racism.

but if orthodox jews ONLY boycotted produce grown by Muslims..that would be bigotry.

NobbyNobbs

7th August 2008, 08:20 AM

it depends. if you are secretly only buying local produce because you know that is is grown mostly by whites, and thats your real reason for doing it, then you are a racist.

we are talking here are about israeli jews choosing not to buy produce from fellow israeli citizens, not for the quality of the produce or the price, but just because of the religion and ethnicity of the growers.

that is as racist as racism gets.

every 7th year jews are supposed to let their land grow untilled. this is why they dont buy from jews every 7th year. it has nothing to do with animosity or hatred of other jews.

the boycotting of arab agriculture is all about hating arabs, their culture, and their people.

...please don't play stupid.

Sigh....ok, look at it this way (which is the way I read it in the article). They aren't boycotting others. They are choosing to support their own.

It's like if I have a friend who owns a market. I go there for most of my stuff, but since he doesn't carry tomatoes, I go the the SuperHugeMart in town. Then, one day, he starts carrying tomatoes. I stop buying my tomatoes elsewhere and support him instead. Am I a racist, or a bigot, or whatnot, if the owner of the SuperHugeMart is black and my friend is white? Or vice versa? No, I am simply supporting the business I choose to support.

there is nothing wrong with supporting farmers and growers from your own country. thats called supporting your local economy..not racism.

but if orthodox jews ONLY boycotted produce grown by Muslims..that would be bigotry.

Exactly our point. They aren't not buying only from Muslims, they are not buying from all non-Jews. (I know there's a lot of negatives in that sentence, but it works out, trust me.)

And please stop using the word "boycott". That's not the impression I got at all from this article.

Thunder

7th August 2008, 09:38 PM

israeli jews boycotting produce grown by israeli arabs is no different then if american whites decided to boycott produce grown by american blacks. it would be considered racist and protested vehemently.

israeli citizens should support israeli companies. there is nothing wrong with that. but choosing the produce of israeli jews over israeli arabs is racist.

its funny how the rest of the world understands this...but a bunch of right-wing extremist jews just cant seem to grasp it. funny...

its things like this that make me embarrased that Israel calls itself the "Jewish" state. it lends to guilt by association.

Alex Libman

7th August 2008, 09:40 PM

I do find Israeli racism disgusting, but it's their business, and they should have the freedom to decide who they want to do business with and on what terms.

mrbaracuda

7th August 2008, 09:46 PM

I wonder if parky is a racist.

davefoc

7th August 2008, 09:48 PM

I do find Israeli racism disgusting, but it's their business, and they should have the freedom to decide who they want to do business with and on what terms.

I totally agree and they should have the freedom to do it without 3 billion dollars plus a year of American aid.

The Fool

7th August 2008, 10:16 PM

gtc

7th August 2008, 10:31 PM

I really don't see an issue here. In a modern democracy it is perfectly natural to expect that some of the community would not want to eat things grown by another section of the community. In my case I simply don't wish to eat stuff grown by black people.....companies should be able to cater for my harmless food preferences.

And yet if you rejected the Arnott's biscuits that are made in PNG in favour of Dick Smith's not-Tim-Tams you would be considered a true-blue dinky-di. Even though I bet the people making the DSNTT are whiter than the people making the biscuits in PNG. Why is it that one form of discrimination is acceptable but others not?

Also you have to frame the question properly - I believe the discussion is about people choosing to buy from Jews rather than not-buying from non-Jews.

Wolfman

7th August 2008, 10:54 PM

but if orthodox jews ONLY boycotted produce grown by Muslims..that would be bigotry.
BINGO!!!

And...according to the article that you cited, the orthodox jews are not boycotting ONLY produce grown by Muslims. They are, in fact, choosing to boycott all foreign-grown produce, also...regardless of whether it was grown by Muslims or not.

Further to that, its not even "orthodox jews" that are doing the "boycott"...it is a company that provides food for the orthodox jews. This is not the only place that orthodox jews can buy their food.

The Fool

7th August 2008, 11:20 PM

BINGO!!!

And...according to the article that you cited, the orthodox jews are not boycotting ONLY produce grown by Muslims. They are, in fact, choosing to boycott all foreign-grown produce, also...regardless of whether it was grown by Muslims or not.

Further to that, its not even "orthodox jews" that are doing the "boycott"...it is a company that provides food for the orthodox jews. This is not the only place that orthodox jews can buy their food.
yes....just like me. I will not eat food grown by people who are not white. I am not boycotting black people. You do see how the latter is much more distastefull than the former don't you? Nothing wrong with me only wishing to eat stuff grown by whites. I have nothing against blacks particularly its just that they are not white...you see?

gtc

8th August 2008, 12:55 AM

Wolfman

8th August 2008, 01:00 AM

yes....just like me. I will not eat food grown by people who are not white. I am not boycotting black people. You do see how the latter is much more distastefull than the former don't you? Nothing wrong with me only wishing to eat stuff grown by whites. I have nothing against blacks particularly its just that they are not white...you see?
Cute...but I'd still argue there's a difference.

Again, two different situations:

1) I will only eat food grown by people of my religion. There are people who grow the same food, but they happen to be of a different race/ethnicity/whatever. Although it is true that they are a different race/ethnicity, that's not reason I'm not buying from them...it is because they are not part of my religion.

2) I will only eat food grown by people of my race. The reason I don't buy food from someone not of my race is specifically related to their race/ethnicity.

I'd call the former religious discrimination; I'd call the latter racism.

In this case, I'd say that this clearly is not racism...it is religious discrimination. They are not specifically targeting Arab Israelis...they are targeting all non-Jews. And need I point out that "Jew" is not a race? There are black Jews, white Jews...even Chinese Jews and Arab Jews. The people in this situation would be able to buy food from all those groups, regardless of their race.

As I said several times, this is discrimination; but its not racism.

The Fool

8th August 2008, 08:46 PM

What if they said that their religion demanded that they only eat food cooked by Jews. Does that make it OK or is it still wrong? I don't think there any Jews who think that way but I am pretty sure some of the Indian castes used to think that way.

What about my example of only eating food grown by Aussie farmers. Doesn't it amount to the same thing?

P.S. If anyone accuses me of a Tu Quoque, I think all three forms of discrimination are silly.

Australia is the home of the Australians. Not home of the whites or home of the Catholics or home of the Jews. The government does not know or care what race, color or religion you are. However..... Israel, in order to systematically discriminate in thier favor...insists on classing its citizens as first and second class.

Companies that set themselves up to assist class 1 citizens to avoid anything produced by the second class is(personally) abhorrent. I cannot find it in me to even attempt to rationalise it...let alone support it. It is racism.....even if it is given the thumbs up by a supernatural being.

The Fool

8th August 2008, 08:49 PM

Cute...but I'd still argue there's a difference.

Again, two different situations:

1) I will only eat food grown by people of my religion. There are people who grow the same food, but they happen to be of a different race/ethnicity/whatever. Although it is true that they are a different race/ethnicity, that's not reason I'm not buying from them...it is because they are not part of my religion.

2) I will only eat food grown by people of my race. The reason I don't buy food from someone not of my race is specifically related to their race/ethnicity.

I'd call the former religious discrimination; I'd call the latter racism.

In this case, I'd say that this clearly is not racism...it is religious discrimination. They are not specifically targeting Arab Israelis...they are targeting all non-Jews. And need I point out that "Jew" is not a race? There are black Jews, white Jews...even Chinese Jews and Arab Jews. The people in this situation would be able to buy food from all those groups, regardless of their race.

As I said several times, this is discrimination; but its not racism.
Is it your argument that Israeli Jews don't see themselves as a race? So any discrimination based on being (or not being) a jew is not racism? So the Nazis actions against Jews was religious discrimination and not racism?

Wolfman

8th August 2008, 09:01 PM

Is it your argument that Israeli Jews don't see themselves as a race? So any discrimination based on being (or not being) a jew is not racism? So the Nazis actions against Jews was religious discrimination and not racism?
It is my argument that there are black Jews, and Chinese Jews, and Arab Jews...so if "Jew" is a race, then it is the only race in the world that includes all races!

ETA: There are essentially two different identities ascribed to the label "Jew". One is an ethnic label -- people who are racially Jewish, regardless of whether or not they believe in or practice the Jewish religion. It is those people whom the Nazis sought to exterminate. The other is a religious label -- people who follow the Jewish religion, regardless of their race.

In this case, it is very clearly being used in the religious sense, since it is talking about "ultra-conservative Jews". Those "ultra-conservative Jews" could be of any race, so long as they follow the religious dictates of the Jewish faith, as defined by the ultra-conservatives.

Thunder

8th August 2008, 10:29 PM

The Fool

9th August 2008, 12:37 AM

It is my argument that there are black Jews, and Chinese Jews, and Arab Jews...so if "Jew" is a race, then it is the only race in the world that includes all races!

ETA: There are essentially two different identities ascribed to the label "Jew". One is an ethnic label -- people who are racially Jewish, regardless of whether or not they believe in or practice the Jewish religion. It is those people whom the Nazis sought to exterminate. The other is a religious label -- people who follow the Jewish religion, regardless of their race.

In this case, it is very clearly being used in the religious sense, since it is talking about "ultra-conservative Jews". Those "ultra-conservative Jews" could be of any race, so long as they follow the religious dictates of the Jewish faith, as defined by the ultra-conservatives.
You seem to have accepted the flip flop of religion/race that Israel needs to add smoke and mirrors to thier racist policies. If Jews are not a race you had better let them down gently because they see themselves as a race....not only a race, but a race chosen by a supernatural being for a particular purpose. To strip thier race status from them also eliminates anti semitism as a racist thing.....Anti-semitism is clearly racism dressed up with a different name.

Do you have to believe in god and attend a synagogue to be a Jew? Ask some Jews....It seems to me that Jews Identify as a race, belief in supernatural beings has nothing to do with it. If I want to take up my automatic citizenship of Israel I don't have to believe in a supernatural being or participate in religious rituals on a regular basis....I simply have to have the correct Genetics. Specifically the correct mother. If this isn't a race thing I simply don't know what is....

as for your point about ultra conservative Jews....I think you need to talk to a few. They are the direct decendants of one man......one man......These people are quite serious about that, these people are not Christians attempting to bolster thier numbers with all sorts of interlopers. These people cling to a belief that they all decend from one man....Goyim with a desire to become Jewish are not likely to pop up in Orthadox Jewish society. Once again if you are suggesting that the belief they are a special race is not at the center of Orthadox Judaism you are missing the elephant in the room.

mrbaracuda

9th August 2008, 01:28 AM

To strip thier race status from them also eliminates anti semitism as a racist thing...

And you wouldn't want that, right?
Go on.

The Fool

9th August 2008, 01:48 AM

And you wouldn't want that, right?
Go on.
Got anything more to add than childish drive-by mud chucking son?

mrbaracuda

9th August 2008, 01:56 AM

I could post another facepalm, old man!

gtc

9th August 2008, 03:06 AM

Australia is the home of the Australians. Not home of the whites or home of the Catholics or home of the Jews. The government does not know or care what race, color or religion you are. However..... Israel, in order to systematically discriminate in thier favor...insists on classing its citizens as first and second class.

Companies that set themselves up to assist class 1 citizens to avoid anything produced by the second class is(personally) abhorrent. I cannot find it in me to even attempt to rationalise it...let alone support it. It is racism.....even if it is given the thumbs up by a supernatural being.

You mention first and second class citizens. Would it be less abhorent if it was an Israeli-Arab organising Israeli-Arab only produce?

If the company was selling only Israeli produce, no one would bat an eyelid. However, exclude Israeli-Arabs and (presumably) include foreign Jews and suddenly its completely immoral. I find this very odd as I view both as forms of discrimination.

You seem to have accepted the flip flop of religion/race that Israel needs to add smoke and mirrors to thier racist policies. If Jews are not a race you had better let them down gently because they see themselves as a race....not only a race, but a race chosen by a supernatural being for a particular purpose. To strip thier race status from them also eliminates anti semitism as a racist thing.....Anti-semitism is clearly racism dressed up with a different name.

Do you have to believe in god and attend a synagogue to be a Jew? Ask some Jews....It seems to me that Jews Identify as a race, belief in supernatural beings has nothing to do with it. If I want to take up my automatic citizenship of Israel I don't have to believe in a supernatural being or participate in religious rituals on a regular basis....I simply have to have the correct Genetics. Specifically the correct mother. If this isn't a race thing I simply don't know what is....

as for your point about ultra conservative Jews....I think you need to talk to a few. They are the direct decendants of one man......one man......These people are quite serious about that, these people are not Christians attempting to bolster thier numbers with all sorts of interlopers. These people cling to a belief that they all decend from one man....Goyim with a desire to become Jewish are not likely to pop up in Orthadox Jewish society. Once again if you are suggesting that the belief they are a special race is not at the center of Orthadox Judaism you are missing the elephant in the room.

I believe there are processes for conversion to Judaism in Orthodox Judaism (in fact I believe it is hard in Israel to officially convert to anything other than Orthodox Judaism).

The Fool

9th August 2008, 05:47 AM

You mention first and second class citizens. Would it be less abhorent if it was an Israeli-Arab organising Israeli-Arab only produce?

No.

If the company was selling only Israeli produce, no one would bat an eyelid. However, exclude Israeli-Arabs and (presumably) include foreign Jews and suddenly its completely immoral. I find this very odd as I view both as forms of discrimination.

yes...it suddenly is because it suddenly isn't the same thing. Positively discriminating in favor of your own nationality within your own nation is not the same as discriminating between different classes of your own Nationality...If an Australian company attempted to advertise it only sold food grown by white anglo saxons how long would it last? Discrimination on the basis of Race or religion in business matters like primary production and retail is illegal in Australia and that is a good thing too. If your farmers are Arab, Jew, Black, white, Caucasian, Asian or whatever is irrelevant. As it should be.

I believe there are processes for conversion to Judaism in Orthodox Judaism (in fact I believe it is hard in Israel to officially convert to anything other than Orthodox Judaism).
Actually I believe that Orthodox is the hardest. Even if you are accepted as jewish by some branches of Judaism you are not necessarily accepted by others. Its a difficult question, one which Jews are always struggling with. Who is or isn't a Jew? How do you reconcile "Democracy" with "Jewish Democracy"? Personally, I don't see how it can be done.

gdnp

9th August 2008, 05:47 AM

I believe there are processes for conversion to Judaism in Orthodox Judaism (in fact I believe it is hard in Israel to officially convert to anything other than Orthodox Judaism).

It is my understanding that orthodox rabbis, as a concession to orthodox parties that are important to the maintenance of fragile coalition governments, have kept strict control over who is considered a Jew. They only recognize orthodox conversions. Even after a conversion they can change their mind (http://www.jewcy.com/post/haredi_conversion), with implications for the citizenship rights of the converted and their offspring:

IN JUNE 2006, ultra-Orthodox Rabbi Leib Tropper nullified a conversion over a year after supervising it himself. He decided that the convert, whom we will call “Sarah,” had become a Jew under “false Pretext [sic].” Rabbi Tropper informed Sarah’s husband, “Avraham,” that his wife’s conversion had been registered as nullified with the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, and that the child produced by their marriage would not be regarded as Jewish, either. Finally, Rabbi Tropper declared that it was “forbidden” for Avraham to be married to Sarah. “Even if she decides to become observant,” Rabbi Tropper wrote via email, “she will need a new conversion,” and the couple would require a “new halachic marriage.”

Essentially, if you cannot demonstrate that you were born a Jew, a rabbi has the power to strip you and your descendants of their Israeli citizenship if you do not meet his standards of religiosity.

Mycroft

9th August 2008, 11:13 AM

Goyim with a desire to become Jewish are not likely to pop up in Orthadox Jewish society. Once again if you are suggesting that the belief they are a special race is not at the center of Orthadox Judaism you are missing the elephant in the room.

Go to an Orthodox synagogue and ask about conversion. No matter what race you are, they will politely show you the schedule of classes available in that community where you cal learn all about their beliefs and practices and join up.

For everyone else; something I found while surfing a few days ago.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3579400,00.html

Now at Home Center: Discounts for Arabs only

Roni Lipshitz
Published: 08.07.08, 19:43 / Israel News

Ynet has learned that Home Center, a popular home wares chain that operates throughout Israel, has been offering preferential treatment to the Arab sector via special discounts they alone are eligible for, regardless of whether the store is situated in a mostly Jewish city.

Pretty funny, I think. :)

mrbaracuda

9th August 2008, 11:32 AM

Those racists from the Home Center! Someone needs to do something! Like making a thread on the interwebs! That'll surely show them!

mrbaracuda

9th August 2008, 11:54 AM

Double post.

The Fool

9th August 2008, 04:20 PM

Go to an Orthodox synagogue and ask about conversion. No matter what race you are, they will politely show you the schedule of classes available in that community where you cal learn all about their beliefs and practices and join up.

For everyone else; something I found while surfing a few days ago.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3579400,00.html

Pretty funny, I think. :)
Nope
you can apply to join. Your post infers that it is automatic....."and join up" was this deliberate or do you not understand the process?

Nice article you found while surfing....I'm assuming you find it objectionable. Discrimination on the basis of race? Can you squeeze out an opinion on this example you provided yourself?

Mycroft

9th August 2008, 10:02 PM

Nope
you can apply to join. Your post infers that it is automatic....."and join up" was this deliberate or do you not understand the process?

Years and years ago I tried to convert to Buddhism. I didn't really believe in Buddhist teachings and thought the whole idea of chanting to make my life better was silly, but they had this great brass band, I played the trumpet, and I wanted in. So I joined a group, signed up for the meetings, got the little book, learned the chant, got my own gohonzon...and eventually was asked to leave.

Oh, they were nice about it. They didn't want me to leave, they told me how much Buddhism had to offer me, but they also let me know that without being sincere in embracing their beliefs, that joining the band was not in the cards, and that my attitude was somewhat disrespectful to those who were really trying to participate.

They let me keep the gohonzon. Or at least nobody came around to ask for it back when I stopped going to the meetings. I guess maybe they figured someday I might decide to meditate on my own and get some benefit from it. Either that or they forgot.

So I gotta tell ya, converting to Buddhism is just about as "automatic" as you get. They want converts. They're thrilled when other people validate their beliefs by joining them. The one thing they do require, and the one thing I failed to provide, was sincerity.

I'm sure I could have made a better effort to lie and fooled them, but I didn't. When push came to shove, when I was asked directly if I thought chanting nam myoho renge quo was beneficial, I said no, and that I felt kinda silly doing it.

So yeah, from that point of view, conversion is not "automatic". They, the Orthodox Rabbis, want you to be sincere in adopting their beliefs, or at least a good enough liar that they don't feel like a chump when they pass you. That's pretty much exactly the same as the Buddhists I joined up with, any Muslims in any Mosque you might know of, any Christian Church, Scientologists, Wiccans, Rastafarians, Bahi, or any other religion you can think of.

Anyone can apply, and anyone who wants to can pass. If you disbelieve, I can personally set you up with some Orthodox Rabbis who will set you straight.

Nice article you found while surfing....I'm assuming you find it objectionable. Discrimination on the basis of race? Can you squeeze out an opinion on this example you provided yourself?

Honestly? I suspect the incident is exaggerated. I think there is probably another side to this story, and if we knew it then it would seem very different.

gtc

10th August 2008, 04:05 AM

No.

OK, I was wondering where you were going with that.

yes...it suddenly is because it suddenly isn't the same thing. Positively discriminating in favor of your own nationality within your own nation is not the same as discriminating between different classes of your own Nationality.

So an Israeli company discriminating against Palestinians is far worse than an Israeli company discriminating against Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs. As I have said before, I find that hard to fathom but it doesn't seem like anyone is going to be able to change my mind.

...If an Australian company attempted to advertise it only sold food grown by white anglo saxons how long would it last? Discrimination on the basis of Race or religion in business matters like primary production and retail is illegal in Australia and that is a good thing too. If your farmers are Arab, Jew, Black, white, Caucasian, Asian or whatever is irrelevant. As it should be.

Of course. And we discriminate against foreign farmers much less than most countries. Which is also a good thing.

The Fool

10th August 2008, 04:09 AM

So yeah, from that point of view, conversion is not "automatic".

Thank you..

They, the Orthodox Rabbis, want you to be sincere in adopting their beliefs, or at least a good enough liar that they don't feel like a chump when they pass you. That's pretty much exactly the same as the Buddhists I joined up with, any Muslims in any Mosque you might know of, any Christian Church, Scientologists, Wiccans, Rastafarians, Bahi, or any other religion you can think of.

Anyone can apply, and anyone who wants to can pass. If you disbelieve, I can personally set you up with some Orthodox Rabbis who will set you straight.

So what proportion of those rejected are you claiming are simply because the person is not sincere?

Honestly? I suspect the incident is exaggerated. I think there is probably another side to this story, and if we knew it then it would seem very different.

How the hell can you exagerate if something is or isn't. They either offer discounts based on race or they don't. I suppose this is as close to a stated opinion that I've seen for a long time......you don't have an opinion because you cling to "it may not be true"? How about you cover both options, what would be your opinion if it were true and what would be your opinion if it were not true....does that help get it out of the too hard basket?

My opinion is that discrimination based on race is unacceptable, if you know of some circumstances where its ok...let us know what they may be.

I

The Fool

10th August 2008, 04:21 AM

So an Israeli company discriminating against Palestinians is far worse than an Israeli company discriminating against Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs. As I have said before, I find that hard to fathom but it doesn't seem like anyone is going to be able to change my mind.

Of course. And we discriminate against foreign farmers much less than most countries. Which is also a good thing.

Can you see the difference between a company saying "we supply only food produced by Australians" and a company saying "none of our food is supplied by non jews"

Sorry we can't accept your potatoes because some of your farmers, even though they are Australian citizens, are not acceptable becaues they are are not Jews.....How long should that last?? It makes me feel slightly ill. Rewrite my post using "black" and "white" instead...

Here is what it looks like. " Sorry we can't accept your potatoes because some of your farmers, even though they are Australian citizens, are not acceptable becaues they are are black.

Its the same damn thing...the rest appears in a lot of cases to be fog and mirrors used to give Israel special rights to do this *****.

gtc

10th August 2008, 04:36 AM

Can you see the difference between a company saying "we supply only food produced by Australians" and a company saying "none of our food is supplied by non jews"

You have framed that so that one is put in a positive light and the other is put in a negative light.

What if you wrote it as:

'We won't supply food produced by non-Australians' and (as the company quoted in the OP puts it) we plan to "support Jewish agriculture in Israel."

Both are silly.

In their case, giving non-Jews jobs might help to keep them away from the terrorists, so it is probably self-defeating too.

The Fool

10th August 2008, 05:28 AM

You have framed that so that one is put in a positive light and the other is put in a negative light.

What if you wrote it as:

'We won't supply food produced by non-Australians' and (as the company quoted in the OP puts it) we plan to "support Jewish agriculture in Israel."

Both are silly.

In their case, giving non-Jews jobs might help to keep them away from the terrorists, so it is probably self-defeating too.
how would it be framed in a positive light? Can you put together something that discriminates between 2 sections of your own (supposedly equal) citizens and makes it sound ok? How could we, for example, exclude Arab australians and still be acceptable?

Thunder

10th August 2008, 06:20 AM

lets be honest now folks. what this is really about is some jews thinking it is perfectly ok for jews...and jews alone..to discriminate against other peoples..even if they are israeli citizens. and they will call you an anti-semite if you properly label this discrimination "racism".

they are perfectly aware that they are being racist...but they stifle all critisism of their racist behavior by bringing up the holocaust and charges of anti-Semitsm. they will even argue that because of the Holocaust and 2,000 years of past persecution, they actually have the right to discriminate, as it is neccessary for jewish survival.

if there is one people on this Earth that should know better...it is US.

if there is a God, which I dont believe there is, but if there is a God...he is very very pissed at the Jewish people. the most common theme of the Old Testament is the Jews as rebellious, misbehaving, unruly child of God. we seem to be seeing that even today.

volatile

10th August 2008, 06:28 AM

Nutjobs all of them.

Recently in my country we had to install different buttons on pedestrian crossings near synagogues because nutjob orthadox jews will not push electric operated buttons on the sabbath. They were getting flattened by cars as they dashed between the traffic in the dangerous manner that god prefers on a sabbath.

For F&#@ sake lads..... I'm sure your supernatural boss didn't mean for you to be so stupid?? Or maybe he does mean it....Is saturday afternoon in heaven the time when god settles down for a few beers and watches Jews being mown down by trucks in australia?

Bastard won't let muslims drink either....but he lets catholics get smashed. Hmmmmmm complex character this god......

I'm always amused that the Orthodox Jews in Tottenham often wear wigs, because of the law enforcing head covering. It strikes me as a finger to their God - "Oh, hey God! Remember you said I had to cover my hair? You didn't say anything about covering it with more hair, did you? HA!".

I don't understand why you'd on the one hand go to great lengths to observe the letter of a law you obviously hold dear, but on the other blatantly flout the spirit of that same law. Religion's weird.

volatile

10th August 2008, 06:40 AM

GTC - would the type of discrimination displayed in the OP be acceptable anywhere else in the world, practised with any other pair of races? That's at the heart of this, I think.

ddt

10th August 2008, 07:03 AM

I'm always amused that the Orthodox Jews in Tottenham often wear wigs, because of the law enforcing head covering. It strikes me as a finger to their God - "Oh, hey God! Remember you said I had to cover my hair? You didn't say anything about covering it with more hair, did you? HA!".
Then what about what's described in the OP's article? The Law says that every seventh year, the land should lay barren to give it a rest. So what do these Orthodox Jews do? They grow their veggies on beds off the ground. Isn't that the same thing?

Or about how Orthodoxy at last endorsed Zionism - which they first opposed, as only God himself could precipitate the Jews going back to Israel? Their solution was that Zionism and the Zionists acted God-inspired, so it was OK.

Or how they reconcile actual mathematics with the pi = 3, which is somewhere in the description of the building of the temple, I think in describing the dimensions of a round chamber with diameter 10 and circumference 30? The 30 is the circumference of the inner side of the wall, the 10 is the diameter of the outer side.

I don't understand why you'd on the one hand go to great lengths to observe the letter of a law you obviously hold dear, but on the other blatantly flout the spirit of that same law. Religion's weird.
Yes, it is. I have to give these (Orthodox) Jews one thing: the creativity and sophistry in these arguments at least gives me a good chuckle. Can't say that of the fire-and-brimstone type fundie Protestants.

marksman

10th August 2008, 07:50 AM

Or how they reconcile actual mathematics with the pi = 3, which is somewhere in the description of the building of the temple, I think in describing the dimensions of a round chamber with diameter 10 and circumference 30? The 30 is the circumference of the inner side of the wall, the 10 is the diameter of the outer side.
I think you're confusing legalists and literalists. Orthodox Jews are legalists in that they believe the letter of the law must be maintained. They are not literalists in the sense that they believe that the physical descriptions in the Torah are literally true. (Though the passage you mention isn't even in the Torah, but in the Haftorah.) They don't believe that pi = 3, notwithstanding the description in scripture. Jews of most sects have no problem understanding that the stories and descriptions there may be metaphorical or allegorical or descriptive.

As for the hyperliteral reading of the Law, that's also not unusual for Orthodox Judaism. Jews aren't supposed to figure out why a law is the way it is. It's supposed to be enough that God told you to do it, so you do it.

So if God says to leave land fallow, you do. If He didn't say you can't grow things suspended above the ground, you can.

The purpose of following the Law is to demonstrate your obedience to commandments. Trying to figure out why God ordered some law is both futile (since so many laws are utterly arbitrary), and could be considered prideful.

I'm not saying that makes blind literal obedience to the Law rational or in any way defensible. I'm just trying to clarify that there's a difference between literalism (which is a hallmark of some fundamental Christian sects) and legalism (a hallmark of some Jewish sects).

FireGarden

10th August 2008, 08:28 AM

they are perfectly aware that they are being racist...but they stifle all critisism of their racist behavior by bringing up the holocaust and charges of anti-Semitsm. they will even argue that because of the Holocaust and 2,000 years of past persecution, they actually have the right to discriminate, as it is neccessary for jewish survival.

I seem to have missed something in this thread.

Who are you talking about? Could you link to some examples of people saying what you put in their mouths, please?

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 08:53 AM

lets be honest now folks. what this is really about is some jews thinking it is perfectly ok for jews...and jews alone..to discriminate against other peoples..even if they are israeli citizens. and they will call you an anti-semite if you properly label this discrimination "racism".

The only person who has raised the issue of anti-Semitism in this issue is you, and that in creating this straw-man.

they are perfectly aware that they are being racist...but they stifle all critisism of their racist behavior by bringing up the holocaust and charges of anti-Semitsm. they will even argue that because of the Holocaust and 2,000 years of past persecution, they actually have the right to discriminate, as it is neccessary for jewish survival.

Again, none of these people have raised the issue of the holocaust. Where are you getting this?

if there is a God, which I dont believe there is, but if there is a God...he is very very pissed at the Jewish people. the most common theme of the Old Testament is the Jews as rebellious, misbehaving, unruly child of God. we seem to be seeing that even today.

So...you're not religious but you want to make a religious based argument against Jews? :confused:

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 09:25 AM

GTC - would the type of discrimination displayed in the OP be acceptable anywhere else in the world, practised with any other pair of races? That's at the heart of this, I think.

Sure.

As far as I know, the thing most comparable to Jewish dietary laws are Muslim dietary laws.

If there were a Muslim business that felt there was a community of Muslims that would prefer food prepared only by other Muslims as a better way to insure that their food meets their strictest dietary standards, I would have absolutely no problem with them trying to get their supply from only farmers who were Muslims. I believe the religious freedom issue outweighs the relatively minor discrimination issue. I say the discrimination issue is minor because I don't believe this market would be large enough to affect very many people.

In the case of the OP, this company was started partly because Eida Chareidis, an unltr-orthodox organization in Israel, contracted with the Palestinian Authority for produce from the Gaza Strip during that year, and some people see that as helping to fund terrorism. Personally I think such economic ties between the communities are more likely to help rather than hurt, but I certainly understand the feelings of people who don't see it that way.

volatile

10th August 2008, 09:37 AM

Mycroft - you'll note from the article linked in the OP that this decision has most clearly not been taken on the basis of dietary laws, rendering your point entirely moot.

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 10:01 AM

Thank you..

So what proportion of those rejected are you claiming are simply because the person is not sincere?

All of them.

Among my circle of acquaintances is an Orthodox Rabbi who services the community at large for people who are not affiliated with a synagogue. One of the things he is asked to do is to officiate conversions at prison. From him I learned that in prison you are allowed to be whatever religion you want, but are only allowed to change that religion every three months. This was the compromise they came up with to both preserve everyone's religious freedom while thwarting the asshattery of certain prisoners who wanted to make life difficult by changing religions several times a day.

So there are some prisoners who find a new religion every three months. It's common for him to get called to the prison to talk to a prisoner about converting to Judaism, who doesn't really want to convert to Judaism.

What's he do? Well, what would you do in his place?

How the hell can you exagerate if something is or isn't. They either offer discounts based on race or they don't. I suppose this is as close to a stated opinion that I've seen for a long time......you don't have an opinion because you cling to "it may not be true"? How about you cover both options, what would be your opinion if it were true and what would be your opinion if it were not true....does that help get it out of the too hard basket?

My opinion is that discrimination based on race is unacceptable, if you know of some circumstances where its ok...let us know what they may be.

I

In my country you can be favored for certain jobs, scholarships, loans or government business contracts if you happen to belong to a minority. It's called "affirmative action" and is designed to make up for past discrimination. Many years ago I learned that Native Americans are eligible for VA guaranteed home loans, even if they are not veterans. I was unsuccessful in marketing to that demographic.

I personally think such programs should be carefully reviewed from time to time, but the principle behind them is one I support. I don't see the world in such black & white terms as you do.

Thunder

10th August 2008, 10:04 AM

I seem to have missed something in this thread.

Who are you talking about? Could you link to some examples of people saying what you put in their mouths, please?

are you saying you have never heard the Holocaust, the Inquisition, the Russian Pogroms, used as an ultimate justification when questioned about immoral Israeli tactics, methods, and laws that seem bigoted or extreme? I sure have.

Either you aren't Jewish...or you are fibbing.

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 10:14 AM

are you saying you have never heard the Holocaust, the Inquisition, the Russian Pogroms, used as an ultimate justification when questioned about immoral Israeli tactics, methods, and laws that seem bigoted or extreme? I sure have.

Either you aren't Jewish...or you are fibbing.

Show who and where these were used in this specific case, please.

Thunder

10th August 2008, 11:14 AM

Show who and where these were used in this specific case, please.

I would have great difficulty finding such quotes, though in the book "The Myth of the Jewish Race", the author does actually claim that due to our past history of persecution and intolerance, that it is actually impossible for Jews to be racist.

I have had many conversations with fellow Jews in NYC, where when I challenge them on extreme and intolerant Israeli methods against the Palestinans and civil laws, and they are unable to deny these charges, they bring up the Holocaust, the Pogroms, and the Inquisition, as some sort of justification for these actions.

FireGarden

10th August 2008, 11:21 AM

are you saying you have never heard the Holocaust, the Inquisition, the Russian Pogroms, used as an ultimate justification when questioned about immoral Israeli tactics, methods, and laws that seem bigoted or extreme? I sure have.

This is a different topic, and I second Mycroft's request.

Either you aren't Jewish...or you are fibbing.

I'm not Jewish and have not claimed to be.
What do you think I might be fibbing about?

I would have great difficulty finding such quotes, though in the book "The Myth of the Jewish Race", the author does actually claim that due to our past history of persecution and intolerance, that it is actually impossible for Jews to be racist.

So are you saying that you know of nobody who has brought up those arguments in this particular case?

Thunder

10th August 2008, 11:41 AM

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 11:53 AM

I would have great difficulty finding such quotes, though in the book "The Myth of the Jewish Race", the author does actually claim that due to our past history of persecution and intolerance, that it is actually impossible for Jews to be racist.

I assume you're talking about this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Jewish-Race-Biologists-Point/dp/0934223793

I have never seen that book, nor can I find any reviews on it. It can be purchased on Amazon, but apparently is purchased so infrequently that they can't even list similar book that other customers have purchased. Doing a google search on the author turns up very little information, so it's unlikely this book is significant in any way.

But if we take your claim at face value, then you're making a logical error in taking one person's opinion and projecting it onto an entire class of people. You're supposed to attribute stupid and fallacious arguments to the specific people who make them, and not extrapolate them to everyone who disagrees with you.

I have had many conversations with fellow Jews in NYC, where when I challenge them on extreme and intolerant Israeli methods against the Palestinans and civil laws, and they are unable to deny these charges, they bring up the Holocaust, the Pogroms, and the Inquisition, as some sort of justification for these actions.

Somehow I doubt this. Your personal anecdotes are just too convenient, and they're always so vague and unverifiable.

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 12:04 PM

i have read articles in the past where, when faced with accusations of war crimes, dispraportionate actions, and extremism, folks start getting into the context of the Holocaust, the failure of the Allies to bomb the tracks to Aushwitz, etc etc.

i just dont save these articles...cause i have a bit of a life.

I have been following the issue very closely for the past 5 years or more, and I can't recall even one instance where anyone used the Holocaust to justify any Israeli action against Palestinian-Arabs.

Does that mean it's never happened? Well, there are 6 billion people on this planet, and I'm sure at least one of them may have made such an statement at some time, but it's certainly not common as you say it is.

Given that it contradicts my own experiences and that you are unable to provide supporting evidence, I'm inclined to judge your assertion to be false.

Thunder

10th August 2008, 12:05 PM

I assume you're talking about this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Jewish-Race-Biologists-Point/dp/0934223793

I have never seen that book, nor can I find any reviews on it. It can be purchased on Amazon, but apparently is purchased so infrequently that they can't even list similar book that other customers have purchased. Doing a google search on the author turns up very little information, so it's unlikely this book is significant in any way.

But if we take your claim at face value, then you're making a logical error in taking one person's opinion and projecting it onto an entire class of people. You're supposed to attribute stupid and fallacious arguments to the specific people who make them, and not extrapolate them to everyone who disagrees with you.

Somehow I doubt this. Your personal anecdotes are just too convenient, and they're always so vague and unverifiable.

2001. I met a girl at the Barnes and Nobles on 83rd and Broadway. She was training to become a Reform Rabbi. We started talking about terrorism and Iraq. She brought up the non-existant gas attacks from Iraq during the Gulf War, and then somehow made a connection between that and Zyklon-B.

But Im sure you doubt that account aswell huh?

And, Mycroft, I believe whole heartedly, that you are being dishonest.

Oh...oh...I thought of one!! The folks at JTF (Jewish Task Force) routinely refer to Muslims and Palestinians as "Muslim Nazis" and "Palestinian Nazis". Whats the point? If Muslims and Palestinians are Nazis..then any means against them is justified. Right?

mrbaracuda

10th August 2008, 12:35 PM

Oh...oh...I thought of one!! The folks at JTF (Jewish Task Force) routinely refer to Muslims and Palestinians as "Muslim Nazis" and "Palestinian Nazis". Whats the point? If Muslims and Palestinians are Nazis..then any means against them is justified. Right?

No the point is.. oh.. oh.. OH I thought of one!!11
It's because if the Jews were to live under Muslim rule or Palestinian rule, it would most likely just be like living under the Nazis!!11

Thunder

10th August 2008, 12:59 PM

LOLOLOLOL!!!

Ah.. I see now. So Jews living in Turkey, Iran, Kazakhstan, and other Muslim nations, is just the same as living under the Nazis huh?

When the Jews lived in Muslim Spain, during the "Golden Age", it was like living under the Nazis?

Where did most Jews flee to after being exiled from Christian Spain? The Muslim world.

Mrbaracuda...you have truly exposed your extremist, right-wing, nutty beliefs.

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 01:39 PM

2001. I met a girl at the Barnes and Nobles on 83rd and Broadway. She was training to become a Reform Rabbi. We started talking about terrorism and Iraq. She brought up the non-existant gas attacks from Iraq during the Gulf War, and then somehow made a connection between that and Zyklon-B.

In the first gulf war back in 1991 there were scud missiles fired at Israel from Iraq, and the possibility that they may be armed with poison gas was a very real fear. At the time there was a big deal made about trying to get any many gas masks distributed to as many Israelis as possible.

So the girl you met was likely somewhere between the ages of 10 to early teens when that war happened. It's not at all surprising if she were confused if any of those scuds actually had any poison gas on them or not. I was much older, and I don't particularly remember.

So your anecdotal evidence here is that once upon a time you met a girl in a bookstore who misremembered events from her childhood, and then made an analogy you feel is inappropriate. At no point did she ever say that because of the Holocaust Israelis are justified in whatever they do, which was your claim.

But Im sure you doubt that account aswell huh?

Yep. I give very little credibility to anything you say that is not directly backed up by evidence, and when you do back things up with evidence, I usually find your interpretation of that evidence questionable. I don't think you are above making up anecdotes to support your arguments.

And, Mycroft, I believe whole heartedly, that you are being dishonest.

Then you should find particular joy in finding the evidence to prove me wrong and make me look like a fool. Are you up to the challenge?

Oh...oh...I thought of one!! The folks at JTF (Jewish Task Force) routinely refer to Muslims and Palestinians as "Muslim Nazis" and "Palestinian Nazis".

So you find a radical fringe group and even they don't say what you've claimed.

Whats the point? If Muslims and Palestinians are Nazis..then any means against them is justified. Right?

Most people don't agree that "any means against them" was justified against the actual historical Nazis (follow any discussion on Dresden) so it makes no sense to claim that merely comparing Palestinian-Arabs to Nazis is the same as justifying any and every measure against them. Even if it were, it's still not using the holocaust to justify Israeli measures against Palestinians, but using Palestinian depravity to justify measures against them.

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 01:48 PM

Mycroft - you'll note from the article linked in the OP that this decision has most clearly not been taken on the basis of dietary laws, rendering your point entirely moot.

I read the article again and I think you're right.

So an appropriate analogy would be a Muslim business that not only used Muslims to provide Halal food, but purchased exclusively from Palestinian-Muslims in order to help promote the economic viability of Palestinian-Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza.

Agree?

Thunder

10th August 2008, 01:50 PM

So you find a radical fringe group and even they don't say what you've claimed.

actually..they do say this...constantly. i guess u dont watch Queens public access.

mrbaracuda

10th August 2008, 01:51 PM

LOLOLOLOL!!!

:mad: Are you mocking me? :mad: :D

Ah.. I see now. So Jews living in Turkey, Iran, Kazakhstan, and other Muslim nations, is just the same as living under the Nazis huh?

A pretty much secular country with the current governing party actively 'Islamizing' the country, who will most likely be held in check by the military when push comes to shove, an Islamic theocracy which likes to hold holocaust conferences with useful idiot rabbis and spouts out anti-Semitism on their state owned television stations and then.. Kazakhstan? Why Kazakhstan? Something up with Kazakhstan? ;)

When the Jews lived in Muslim Spain, during the "Golden Age", it was like living under the Nazis?

Where did most Jews flee to after being exiled from Christian Spain? The Muslim world.

Ah yes, the revered 'Golden Age'. It being so great or not and whatever the reasons, nevermind we're about 1300 years past that! Nevermind we're not talking about Jews in 'al-Andalus'!

Given how Christians, who are probably the largest religous minority across the Middle East, do not fare too well because of Islam and Muslims, you're seriously arguing by example of 'al-Andalus' how Jews, you know, those who are accused of being responsible for basically every evil in the world by Quran and said to be pretty much minions of satan, fare so well today in Muslim majority countries?

Either you are, or I am going insane.

Mrbaracuda...you have truly exposed your extremist, right-wing, nutty beliefs.

And I give you alone all credit for it!!11 :eek:
I could say something about you now, but I'll refrain from doing so. This time.

Thunder

10th August 2008, 01:54 PM

I read the article again and I think you're right.

So an appropriate analogy would be a Muslim business that not only used Muslims to provide Halal food, but purchased exclusively from Palestinian-Muslims in order to help promote the economic viability of Palestinian-Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza.

Agree?

an arab israeli supermarket that refused to buy produce from israeli jewish farmers...and only bought from israeli arab farmers....for the simple fact of the ethnicity of the farmer...would be acting racist.

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 02:26 PM

actually..they do say this...constantly. i guess u dont watch Queens public access.

So your radical fringe group really does say this, but it's only available on Queens public access and not on their web-site where you could link to it?

I guess we'll just have to take your word for it, won't we? :oldroll:

I got a better idea. How about you just stop making up straw-man arguments?

mrbaracuda

10th August 2008, 02:29 PM

I got a better idea. How about you just stop making up straw-man arguments?

I support that notion. ;)

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 02:30 PM

an arab israeli supermarket that refused to buy produce from israeli jewish farmers...and only bought from israeli arab farmers....for the simple fact of the ethnicity of the farmer...would be acting racist.

Well, that's a pretty important qualifier, don't you think? Suppose their stated reason for not buying from the Jewish-Israeli farmer was to ensure Halal handling of the food? Do you think that makes a difference?

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 02:37 PM

I support that notion. ;)

And he's got a life, so he's too busy to find the evidence he needs, but his busy life doesn't get in the way of his watching nutty programs on public access television or killing long hours on the internet making threads bashing Jews and Israel. :)

mrbaracuda

10th August 2008, 02:46 PM

And he's got a life, so he's too busy to find the evidence he needs, but his busy life doesn't get in the way of his watching nutty programs on public access television or killing long hours on the internet making threads bashing Jews and Israel. :)

I haven't paid particularly much attention to what he was trying to say, mainly because it seemed somewhat incoherent and strange, but I think he failed at trying anyway. The 'Jewish Task Force' is an interesting topic though. Parky, what's the name of the rabbi whose teachings they follow again?

Thunder

10th August 2008, 02:51 PM

So your radical fringe group really does say this, but it's only available on Queens public access and not on their web-site where you could link to it?

I guess we'll just have to take your word for it, won't we? :oldroll:

I got a better idea. How about you just stop making up straw-man arguments?

are you saying JTF does not regularly refer to Muslims and Palestinians as Nazis?

are you calling me a liar?

Thunder

10th August 2008, 02:54 PM

Well, that's a pretty important qualifier, don't you think? Suppose their stated reason for not buying from the Jewish-Israeli farmer was to ensure Halal handling of the food? Do you think that makes a difference?

all fruits and vegetables are halal...my friend. just as there is no such thing as an unkosher fruit.

but I guess it would be ok for a Muslim market to refuse to buy meat from anyone but a Muslim rancher, out of concerns for halal.

but that isnt what this is about. this is about a jewish supermarket only wanting to buy from jewish growers, for purely nationalistic reasons. read the article again.

mrbaracuda

10th August 2008, 03:03 PM

are you saying JTF does not regularly refer to Muslims and Palestinians as Nazis?

are you calling me a liar?

Should I tell him, Mycroft? ;)

Thunder

10th August 2008, 04:29 PM

perhaps they post their videos on Youtube. ill check it out.

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 07:46 PM

are you saying JTF does not regularly refer to Muslims and Palestinians as Nazis?

are you calling me a liar?

Ah, geez, where to begin...

No, I did not claim the JTF does not regularly refer to Muslims and Palestinians as Nazis. For all I know, they might. Who cares?

It's still not evidence for the claim you made back in post # 75 where you say;

"they are perfectly aware that they are being racist...but they stifle all critisism of their racist behavior by bringing up the holocaust and charges of anti-Semitsm. they will even argue that because of the Holocaust and 2,000 years of past persecution, they actually have the right to discriminate, as it is neccessary for jewish survival."

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3934190#post3934190

Who is "they"? It's not the JTF, nor is it the Reform Rabbinical student you met in a bookstore back in 2001. Is it Otzar Ha'aretz? Or is it Jews in general?

Your claim is that "they" stifle criticism of their racism by bringing up the Holocaust. That's what you need to prove.

Edited to add:

are you calling me a liar?

Oops, forgot to address this part.

I don't think I've ever said it directly, but I've certainly implied it. In this thread I've directly said I believe you're capable of making up anecdotal evidence to support an argument you're making. In the past I've certainly expressed skepticism of some personal claims you've made.

But I'll admit you might not be. It could be you're just really confused and really honestly can't tell that some group of radical Jews in New York speaking out on public access cable calling Hamas Nazis is not evidence that Jews halfway around the world cite the Holocaust to justify racism. It could be that you truly don't have the cognitive ability to tell one action from the other, and if that were true then you don't have the ability to judge truth from falsehood, much less deliberately lie.

gtc

10th August 2008, 08:03 PM

how would it be framed in a positive light?

Promoting the interests of Australian farmers is to put it in a positive light. Discriminating against non-Australian farmers is to put it in a negative light. Even though it amounts to the same thing

In the example you used you put the Jewish actions in a negative light and the Australian example in a positive light.

Can you put together something that discriminates between 2 sections of your own (supposedly equal) citizens and makes it sound ok? How could we, for example, exclude Arab australians and still be acceptable?

I don't think it is. In some cases it is somewhat understandable - for instance black Americans supporting black businesses or Americans being wary of Japanese-Americans during WWII but it is not acceptable.

GTC - would the type of discrimination displayed in the OP be acceptable anywhere else in the world, practised with any other pair of races? That's at the heart of this, I think.

No.

Mycroft

10th August 2008, 08:11 PM

all fruits and vegetables are halal...my friend. just as there is no such thing as an unkosher fruit.

If they are processed in any way, they might not be parve. For example, it's entirely possible that canned fruit or vegetables may have been canned with equipment also used to preserve meats or dairy products, in which case they would be unsuitable for Kosher consumption.

One would think someone with the background you claim would have thought of that.

Is there an Islamic equivalent? I don't know.

but I guess it would be ok for a Muslim market to refuse to buy meat from anyone but a Muslim rancher, out of concerns for halal.

And what specifically would you do if you suspected the claim was just a ruse to cover racism? Would you then claim an international boycott of Islamic produced goods was justified? Or would you hold only this one Islamic business at fault and not hold it against other Muslims?

but that isnt what this is about. this is about a jewish supermarket only wanting to buy from jewish growers, for purely nationalistic reasons. read the article again.

And suppose this hypothetical Islamic business wanted to support Palestinian-Arab growers for nationalistic reasons? What then?

Thunder

10th August 2008, 08:36 PM

then..it would be racist. if an arab israeli boycotted all jewish goods infavor of arab goods..simply for nationalistic reasons...then it would be racist.

geez.

marksman

11th August 2008, 10:23 AM

all fruits and vegetables are halal...my friend. just as there is no such thing as an unkosher fruit.

That's not strictly true. Fruits and vegetables are supposed to be checked out before packaging to ensure that they are not infested with insects (or insect parts). Many insects are not kosher to eat and therefore some Jewish sects will onyl purchase vegetables and fruit from facilities that have been certified as ensuring that there are no bugs within.

-Cite (http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm)

The Fool

11th August 2008, 06:41 PM

That's not strictly true. Fruits and vegetables are supposed to be checked out before packaging to ensure that they are not infested with insects (or insect parts). Many insects are not kosher to eat and therefore some Jewish sects will onyl purchase vegetables and fruit from facilities that have been certified as ensuring that there are no bugs within.

-Cite (http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm)
I would have thought that gross infestations of insects would be noticeable when you went to prepare or eat the food? On the other hand I would probably say there are insect parts in/on all vegetables we eat....certified or inspected or not... there are bugs everywhere.....many too tiny to see......eeeeeeww!!!!!

Anyway.....What does god do to Jews/Muslims that eat the wrong thing ???

Thunder

11th August 2008, 06:43 PM

why is it sooo hard for some jews to admit that their is racism in Israel? why is it soo hard for some jews to admit this discrimination against arab produce is purely for nationalistic reasons, and has nothing to do with the 7 years rule or any other religous reasoning.

why is it so hard for some jews to admit that...jews can indeed be wrong?

Mycroft

11th August 2008, 09:45 PM

why is it sooo hard for some jews to admit that their is racism in Israel?

Like who? Has anyone in this thread denied there is racism in Israel?

why is it soo hard for some jews to admit this discrimination against arab produce is purely for nationalistic reasons, and has nothing to do with the 7 years rule or any other religous reasoning.

As far as I know, most of the people arguing with you in this thread are not Jewish.

why is it so hard for some jews to admit that...jews can indeed be wrong?

I've never met anyone like that, Jewish or otherwise. Maybe you really need to make more effort to consider people as individuals rather than as "Jews."

marksman

12th August 2008, 04:27 AM

I would have thought that gross infestations of insects would be noticeable when you went to prepare or eat the food?
The standard isn't "gross infestations"

On the other hand I would probably say there are insect parts in/on all vegetables we eat....certified or inspected or not... there are bugs everywhere.....many too tiny to see......eeeeeeww!!!!!
Yep. And people who stay kosher are obligated to keep that to a minimum. Thus, kosher fruit.

What does god do to Jews/Muslims that eat the wrong thing ???
I don't know what Muslims believe (I don't believe they have the same injunction about inspecting fruit and vegetables).

Jews don't believe God will do anything to them (and it's pretty obvious that Jews who don't follow the commandments don't get smote). Jews are supposed to follow the commandments out of a desire to please God, not out of a fear of displeasing Him.

(Note, I don't follow the commandments -- I'm just answering your question to the best of my ability.)

The Fool

12th August 2008, 05:55 AM

The standard isn't "gross infestations"
OK then lets use "noticeable infestations". I assume that noticeable infestations would be noticed so why do you need someone to tell you that the fruit and veg is free of noticeable infestations? Anything less (not noticeable) I assume would not be noticed when the Kosher inspector tries to notice the non-noticeable.

Yep. And people who stay kosher are obligated to keep that to a minimum. Thus, kosher fruit.

keep it to a minimum by attempting to notice the bugs? Seems to me its the best they could do. I could understand inspectors to assist those who are vision impaired.

I don't know what Muslims believe (I don't believe they have the same injunction about inspecting fruit and vegetables).
I wouldn't mind betting they have a lot of restrictions, I know of quite a few cases in Australia of food providers being fined for advertising thier goods as "Halal" when they are not.

Jews don't believe God will do anything to them (and it's pretty obvious that Jews who don't follow the commandments don't get smote). Jews are supposed to follow the commandments out of a desire to please God, not out of a fear of displeasing Him.

I don't believe that they fear god either although some very keen ones may.... Is it possible that some fear the reaction of thier synagogue and thier peers?

(Note, I don't follow the commandments -- I'm just answering your question to the best of my ability.)
Neither do I. We may meet again in the afterlife :)

marksman

12th August 2008, 06:13 AM

OK then lets use "noticeable infestations".
Why should we use that? That's not the standard.

The rabbis have some very strict rules about what is the proper way to inspect vegetables and fruit for bug parts, and it's not really worth going into the minutia of it all. At any rate, I trust you now understand that -- contrary to your earlier statement -- there are such things as kosher (and non-kosher) fruits and vegetables.

I don't believe that they fear god either although some very keen ones may....
If you don't believe they do it out of fear, why'd you ask what God would do to them if they eat non-kosher food?!

Is it possible that some fear the reaction of thier synagogue and thier peers?
It's possible. Peer pressure is a powerful motivator for the faithful and the unfaithful. But that's not supposed to be why they follow the commandments.

The Fool

12th August 2008, 04:56 PM

Why should we use that? That's not the standard.

The rabbis have some very strict rules about what is the proper way to inspect vegetables and fruit for bug parts, and it's not really worth going into the minutia of it all. At any rate, I trust you now understand that -- contrary to your earlier statement -- there are such things as kosher (and non-kosher) fruits and vegetables.

oh no....I don't mind minutia. I would say that having some proportion of your fruit and veg looked over by a rabbi is not going to decrease your chances of eating bugs above and beyond looking over the stuff yourself before you prepare/eat it. Sounds more like a job creation scheme for rabbis to me. And another point of minutia....I didn't make any earlier statements about there being kosher and non kosher fruits and vegetables, what "earlier statement" are you refering to? but let me offer this anyway.....it may seem nit picky but as I read it fruit and Veg are kosher fullstop. Insects may not be kosher. Anything kosher could possibly be infested with non kosher insects so if I follow your definitions then you cannot say any food is kosher as it may be insect infested. It follows from this that only food inspected by a rabbi is able to be truly referred to as kosher? I think in reality that can't be so as there are not enough rabbis in the world to inspect everything.

If you don't believe they do it out of fear, why'd you ask what God would do to them if they eat non-kosher food?!

well jimminy...maybe god pokes them with his finger....I wouldn't fear that. But lightning bolts may be a different thing alltogether.

marksman

12th August 2008, 06:08 PM

The Fool

12th August 2008, 09:57 PM

Sorry, TF. It was parky who denied the existence of kosher fruit, not you.

At any rate, fruit that hasn't been inspected by a rabbi is non-kosher by some sects' reckoning.

And all religion is at some level a job creation scheme for clergy. Just as dental hygiene is a work creation scheme for dentists. The difference is the latter is supported by science and the former is a matter of faith.

Lol...I know what you mean about dentists. Have you ever noticed thier eyes roll like slot machines with gold coins and dollar sign symbols when they look in your mouth?

the funny thing about this whole thread is that today....I couldn't stop myself from checking out my Ham salad roll for insects.... Hmmmm, maybe I'm getting closer to god :)

mrbaracuda

13th August 2008, 02:29 AM

:boxedin:
the funny thing about this whole thread is that today....I couldn't stop myself from checking out my Ham salad roll for insects.... Hmmmm, maybe I'm getting closer to god :)

I hope your ham was halal! And eew, salad. ;)

marksman

13th August 2008, 03:45 AM

the funny thing about this whole thread is that today....I couldn't stop myself from checking out my Ham salad roll for insects.... Hmmmm, maybe I'm getting closer to god :)
Doubtful. You're not Jewish so you can eat as many bugs as you want. As long as you follow the Noachide laws you should be just fine. Well, at least as far as most Jewish sects are concerned.

The Fool

13th August 2008, 06:11 PM

:boxedin:

I hope your ham was halal! And eew, salad. ;)
Hmmm, Halal Ham? May be a bit difficult to manage that one.

gtc

13th August 2008, 06:38 PM

Turkey Bacon. Hungry Jacks in Singapore used it on their hamburgers when I was there a couple of years ago.

I think some Muslim countries don't use the name the name hamburger because of the difficulty in explaining that while a beefburger is a burger with beef and a cheeseburger is a burger with cheese, a hamburger doesn't contain ham.

Thunder

13th August 2008, 07:48 PM

Like who? Has anyone in this thread denied there is racism in Israel?
."

would you please site for me an example of jewish racism in israel.

The Fool

13th August 2008, 08:41 PM

gtc

13th August 2008, 09:06 PM

I always thought a hamburger was derived from the German city name Hamburg. But I may just be stupid.....

Indeed. According to wikipedia, beef patties were known as 'Hamburg steaks'.

I read somewhere that marketers of hamburgers in some Muslim countries prefer not having to explain the origin and lack of ham in hamburgers and have picked a name with less potential for confusion. But I can't remember what it is now. use the term burger or beefburger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burger_King_products#Regionalization)instead.

The Fool

13th August 2008, 10:13 PM

Indeed. According to wikipedia, beef patties were known as 'Hamburg steaks'.

I read somewhere that marketers of hamburgers in some Muslim countries prefer not having to explain the origin and lack of ham in hamburgers and have picked a name with less potential for confusion. But I can't remember what it is now. use the term burger or beefburger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burger_King_products#Regionalization)instead.

Osama may be sad to hear it but conversion to Islam could never be an issue for me due to bacon addiction.....

Mycroft

14th August 2008, 12:05 AM

would you please site for me an example of jewish racism in israel.

The burden is on you to cite an example of someone, Jewish or not, who claims there is no racism in Israel. You're the one making a claim, I'm not.

14th August 2008, 12:31 AM

would you please site for me an example of jewish racism in israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932384.html

FireGarden

14th August 2008, 01:16 AM

would you please site for me an example of jewish racism in israel.

I can go one better and show some-one justifying their racism -- which is closer to your claim. Some people don't justify it. Some deny it, some condemn it.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009568.html

"I wasn't a racist until the problem started to affect me personally," says Ilya Rosenfeld, who immigrated to Israel 18 years ago. Rosenfeld worked in the Prime Minister's Bureau during Ariel Sharon's tenure, dealing with Russian affairs, and is now running for a seat on the city council. "The Jewish city I came to is up for sale," he continues. "It bothers me that on my street, you no longer hear Hebrew and Russian, just Arabic."

Rosenfeld implies his racism is justified because there is a problem which effects him. What is the problem? Arabs moving into Upper Nazareth. If the Arabs would just stay away, then he wouldn't feel the need to be racist.

And there is a parallel to the OP, in that rabbi's are going around quoting scripture:

Several rabbis have mobilized to halt the Jewish residents' flight. They pay a visit to the Jewish sellers and, quoting from religious sources, persuade them not to sell their homes to Arabs.

And, most strangely of all, the Arabs seem to take it in stride. They offer contracts with "no Arab neighbour" escape clauses to Jewish home buyers:

The Arab contractors working in Upper Nazareth have taken this issue into account. Rosenfeld says he once worked with an Arab contractor, who offered a contract to buyers with an escape clause allowing for the deal to be canceled if a Jew does not want to live next to an Arab who buys an apartment in the same building.

Market forces, huh?

gtc

14th August 2008, 01:24 AM

Osama may be sad to hear it but conversion to Islam could never be an issue for me due to bacon addiction.....

But surely knowing it was blasphemous could only add to your enjoyment of a bacon cheeseburger?

mrbaracuda

14th August 2008, 01:54 AM

German

Yes, we rock, I know. :cool:

Thunder

14th August 2008, 03:19 PM

The burden is on you to cite an example of someone, Jewish or not, who claims there is no racism in Israel. You're the one making a claim, I'm not.

when every single accusation of bigotry, prejudice, or racism by jews in israel is denied, and often times responded to with unjustified accusations of anti-semitism, one must ask "do you think it is even possible for jews to be bigots?"

Mycroft

16th August 2008, 02:23 AM

when every single accusation of bigotry, prejudice, or racism by jews in israel is denied, and often times responded to with unjustified accusations of anti-semitism, one must ask "do you think it is even possible for jews to be bigots?"

All you're doing is repeating the same canards you couldn't support before.

Nobody here denied there is racism in Israel. There is racism everywhere, Israel is no different.

Nobody here (except you) raised the issue of anti-Semitism.

Nobody here claims it's not possible for Jews to be bigots. That you claim anyone has is doubly weird given the number of threads you've started where you express astonishment at finding Jews who are bigots.

You're arguing against opinions nobody holds.

Thunder

16th August 2008, 09:09 AM

Mycroft- would you please site an example of overt jewish racism in israel?

or are you going to suggest that while there is indeed jewish racism in israel, you refuse to give an example

=)

marksman

16th August 2008, 09:42 AM

It's not his burden to do so and thus he should refuse. It's your burden to stand by your statements and to substantiate them and it's shameful to deflect your own refusal to stand by your statements by asking other people to support statements nobody disputes. (Or are you now reversing your position and claiming that no Jews in Israel have ever said anything racist?)

But here's an example (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1191257206620&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter) from 2007, in which some restaurant owner put up a sign seeking to hire only Jewish employees. (There is no religious requirement that food handlers of kosher food be Jewish.) Sadly, they still advertise this fact even today (see their ad in this July 2008 magazine, page 39 (http://issuu.com/shiurtimes/docs/july2008/39)) If you go to the letters section of the magazine, you can see a reference to a "man on the street interview" in which some "man on the street" made a racist comment towards Arabs. Both the letter writer and the magazine condemned the racist staement.

Such hiring practices are illegal in Israel and I hope the authorities take the appropriate action.

Thunder

16th August 2008, 11:20 AM

you want me to cite examples of racism against arabs in israel?

-arab students get 1/2 as much educational funds as jewish students.

-arabs CAN NOT move to the illegal settlemants in the West Bank.

-it is illegal for a political party in the Knesset to call Israel "a state of its peoples", yet it is perfectly legal for a political party to call for the forced expulsion of arab citizens.

-"illegal" arab housing in east jerusalem and the west bank has been and is still rhoutinely demolished. illegal jewish housing, however, is rarely demolished.

-arab citizens of israel in east jerusalem, who pay taxes, cant get city services or ambulances.

-it was recently reported that israeli troops lend a blind eye to violence against arabs by jewish settlers in Hebron.

need i continue?

marksman

16th August 2008, 11:38 AM

you want me to cite examples of racism against arabs in israel?
No, I want you to support your position:

"when every single accusation of bigotry, prejudice, or racism by jews in israel is denied, and often times responded to with unjustified accusations of anti-semitism"

You wrote those words which, to any rational mind, comes off as hysterical hyperbole. But that seems to be the basis of your rants.

Who has denied "every single accusation"? Who, Parky? That's your claim. I don't see anybody doing such a thing.

Nobody's denying there are racists in Israel or in any other nation on this planet. Can you show me who the heck you're ranting against in the quote provided above?

As an aside, you also incorrectly claimed there's no such thing as kosher fruit. Since I provided a link explaining that there is such a thing, I hope you'll acknowledge that you were wrong to claim otherwise.

Jigsaw_Psyche

16th August 2008, 05:39 PM

I wouldn't mind betting they have a lot of restrictions, I know of quite a few cases in Australia of food providers being fined for advertising thier goods as "Halal" when they are not.

Halal (permissable) refers only to the slaughter method/blessing said over/cleaning and preparation of meat (but not fish which is always halal unless rotten).

No stunning, say arabic prayer, make sure its facing Mecca, slit its throat, make sure to wash ALL blood/innards off meat and don't eat raw or spoiled meat. Pigs are ALWAYS harem (forbidden) no matter how they are slaughtered/prepared.

Any other foods are always halal (permissable) unless spoiled. I am most interested in the cases that you saw. What type of food were these places advertising as "halal"?

As always, Quran/Tafseer/ahadith available on request :)

-JP

gtc

16th August 2008, 06:57 PM

I think there was a case where Halal mince meat (Americans call it ground meat) contained Pork.

TF may remember more.

The Fool

17th August 2008, 05:33 PM

I think there was a case where Halal mince meat (Americans call it ground meat) contained Pork.

TF may remember more.

I can't find links but like you I remember the pork in the mince case...(as if you'd be surprised there is bodgy stuff in mince).

There was a number of cases at university food halls.....even one where pork rolls went into the halal section.

Jigsaw_Psyche

17th August 2008, 05:40 PM

Thanks guys,
I hadn't heard of this before! I'll go do some research.

If it was about meat then the halal/harem rules apply whereas they don't for other foods.

The Fool

17th August 2008, 07:30 PM

Thanks guys,
I hadn't heard of this before! I'll go do some research.

If it was about meat then the halal/harem rules apply whereas they don't for other foods.
A lot of small food shops in malls and in the inner city were just sticking all sorts of signs on food, including "halal" without much thought...or knowledge...or honesty. Australian false advertising laws are quite harsh...they cracked down on these small shop and stall operators who had developed a bad habit of using "low fat", "organic" and other trendy claims as well as the Halal claim.

Thunder

18th August 2008, 01:22 PM

No, I want you to support your position:

"when every single accusation of bigotry, prejudice, or racism by jews in israel is denied, and often times responded to with unjustified accusations of anti-semitism"

You wrote those words which, to any rational mind, comes off as hysterical hyperbole. But that seems to be the basis of your rants.

Who has denied "every single accusation"? Who, Parky? That's your claim. I don't see anybody doing such a thing.

Nobody's denying there are racists in Israel or in any other nation on this planet. Can you show me who the heck you're ranting against in the quote provided above?

As an aside, you also incorrectly claimed there's no such thing as kosher fruit. Since I provided a link explaining that there is such a thing, I hope you'll acknowledge that you were wrong to claim otherwise.

you are indeed right.....about the Kosher fruit.

when I said "kosher fruit doesnt exist" what i was getting at is that many Orthodox Jews will buy fruit and vegetables from regular old supermarkets.