Ok, how the HELL do you eject a cd from a Mac

[Ron_Tomkins]

.... when the Machine doesn't read the cd?


I just put a music cd in and for some reason it doesn't seem to read it. It doesn't show on applications nor Itunes. Therefore, I also can't eject it cause there's no icon to drag to the trash can.

How in living HELL do I eject this thing from my computer now???

(And please, PC users, refrain from the "switch to PC" jokes. I'm not in a good mood right now)

[joobie]

reboot and hold down the mouse button

it should eject.

[ElMondoHummus]

I take it you don't have the Mac Pro keyboard then. I've been told by our Mac support team that, if you have OS 10.1 or later that you should hold in the F12 key.

There are also apps that give you an eject button in the Finder.

[elgarak]

Three methods (no reboot required):

1. Press and hold the "eject" button (top right).
2. Bring the Finder into foreground, hit Command-E (or File:Eject).
3. Start Disk Utility, select the optical drive, click eject (or Command-E, or File:Eject).

(There are more...)

[JoeEllison]

You throw it against the wall, get your CD, and then buy a PC. :)

[Safe-Keeper]

1. Get screwdriver...

:p

[elgarak]

Another good one:

"drutil eject tray" in Terminal (if your system is so far compromised that this doesn't work, the reboot/mousebutton is probably the easiest...)

[elgarak]

Also: A lot of programs, including iTunes, show the eject icon and allow eject even when the disc is not displayed in the Finder or on the desktop.

iTunes has an "Eject disc" command permanently enabled in the "Controls" menu. Keyboard shortcut, as expected, Command-E.

[elgarak]

To all the "Get a PC" morons: There are PCs out there with a slot-loading optical drive...

Considering that I had more problem (way more) with disc reading problems in Windows... (guess it still remembers it was once DOS).

[jimtron]

Another method, which I don't think has been mentioned: pull the door back, and press the eject button on the front of the optical drive. Or if it's really stuck, stick a straightened paper clip in the small hole at the front of the drive.

[Safe-Keeper]

By all means, elgarak, I've used Macs to an extent and liked them a lot better than PC's in a lot of ways. I'll still stick with the PC due to the fact that there's far more games for it, but I'm hoping to get my hands on a Mac laptop once:).

[elgarak]

Another method, which I don't think has been mentioned: pull the door back, and press the eject button on the front of the optical drive. Or if it's really stuck, stick a straightened paper clip in the small hole at the front of the drive.
None of the current lines of Macs has any of the things you mentioned. It's a pure slot-loading drive.

[JoeEllison]

To all the "Get a PC" morons: There are PCs out there with a slot-loading optical drive...

Considering that I had more problem (way more) with disc reading problems in Windows... (guess it still remembers it was once DOS).

Yep... we're all morons with the more popular and useful system, silly us. :D

[elgarak]

By all means, elgarak, I've used Macs to an extent and liked them a lot better than PC's in a lot of ways. I'll still stick with the PC due to the fact that there's far more games for it, but I'm hoping to get my hands on a Mac laptop once:).
If I can restrain myself from "Get a Mac" comments, so can you ;)!

(I just used some harsher language only since Ron was already frustrated and mentioned it in the OP)

[Gate2501]

Just remember what the legendary Whitney Houston said about this.

Mac is Wack!

[Ron_Tomkins]

Thank you for your methods. I eventually rebooted and it did show the CD icon. It does read it. It just, for some insane reason, didn't read it the first time I put the cd in. I will consider these other options (excluding the "throw it against the wall" option) for next time if things get ugly.

[jimtron]

None of the current lines of Macs has any of the things you mentioned. It's a pure slot-loading drive.
When you say "it's" what are you referring to? The OP didn't mention the model, did it? Whether it was an old or new Mac, a Mac Pro or iMac?

My Mac Pro is in the current line, and has a door that can be pulled back revealing an optical drive with an eject button and paper clip hole. See the top bay in the photo currently at this page:

http://www.apple.com/macpro/

[Bob Blaylock]

···

[CFLarsen]

.... when the Machine doesn't read the cd?


I just put a music cd in and for some reason it doesn't seem to read it. It doesn't show on applications nor Itunes. Therefore, I also can't eject it cause there's no icon to drag to the trash can.

What, no button on the physical drive?

That is truly bad design. Appalling.

[jimtron]

What, no button on the physical drive?

That is truly bad design. Appalling.

Ron didn't say there was no button on the physical drive, AFAIK.

I have a Mac Pro, which has an eject button on the front of the optical drive. Also, AFAIK, all Macs with slot-loading optical drives have physical eject buttons on the keyboards.

Sometimes with Macs is there a problem ejecting CDs? Every once and a while, sure. Does this happen more with Macs than with PCs? I doubt it. I don't mean to get into a Mac vs. PC debate, because I think it basically comes down to a matter of taste. But I don't think slot-loading Macs are poorly designed. The aluminum iMacs are lovely to look at, and work quite well. Neither Macs nor PCs are problem-free.

[CFLarsen]

Ron didn't say there was no button on the physical drive, AFAIK.

I have a Mac Pro, which has an eject button on the front of the optical drive. Also, AFAIK, all Macs with slot-loading optical drives have physical eject buttons on the keyboards.

That's still an electronic solution. If they don't have a mechanical button for a mechanical device, it is horrendous design.

It's bad design because it's arrogant design. It banks on the software always working. Ain't so.

[elgarak]

When you say "it's" what are you referring to? The OP didn't mention the model, did it? Whether it was an old or new Mac, a Mac Pro or iMac?

My Mac Pro is in the current line, and has a door that can be pulled back revealing an optical drive with an eject button and paper clip hole. See the top bay in the photo currently at this page:

http://www.apple.com/macpro/
Oops :o. Must be the fact that the Mac Pro is way out of my price league, so I never paid much attention to its details.

The "it's" I used is the drive/slot in my MacBook, my boss's MacBook Pro, and all the iMacs I have seen in the Apple store. Yes, no physical/mechanical eject button that's accessible without opening the case. It's one of the few things I was worried about before I got the MacBook. So far, it has worked surprisingly well.

[ddt]

That's still an electronic solution. If they don't have a mechanical button for a mechanical device, it is horrendous design.

It's bad design because it's arrogant design. It banks on the software always working. Ain't so.

However, the CD-drives in PC's can be blocked too from opening! The software can instruct the drive to ignore a push on the "open" button.

You may not see this behaviour with Windows, but you can see it with Linux. Linux - as every UNIX - requires that a disk (or partition) be mounted before the filesystem on it can be used; and likewise, that it be unmounted before you remove the disk from your system.

(If you want to see a reason for this, try it with a floppy. Copy a 1MB file to the floppy. That happens instantaneous, you won't hear the floppy - all writes are still in the kernel cache. Then when you issue the unmount command, you'll hear actually write the file to floppy.)

So, when you put in a CD and mount it under Linux, the Linux kernel will issue a command to the drive that it must disable the "open" button. All CD-drives, except for the very early IDE drives, do this. You can simply check this by having a file from the CD in use and then push the button. It won't open.

So that "software can be faulty" argument doesn't hold. And on a Mac - with MacOS, another flavour of UNIX as OS - the same reasoning as for Linux applies - the software would logically need to disable the button while the CD is in use. So why have a button at all?

[NobbyNobbs]

That's still an electronic solution. If they don't have a mechanical button for a mechanical device, it is horrendous design.

It's bad design because it's arrogant design. It banks on the software always working. Ain't so.

Note: An electronic solution is not always a software solution. It could be pure circuitry. As long as there's power in the battery, it could work, whether the CPU and hard drive work or not.

[moopet]

As far as physical buttons are concerned, a non-slot-loading drive will have a paperclip button. This is a purely physical mechanism, and is sane. Anything that doesn't have this mechanism will end in trouble if a fault develops, and the only way around it would be to remove and disassemble the drive.
On a PC, this can take 10 minutes - on a mac, this can take longer than the remaining time in the universe before heat death. Trust me.

Macs are pretty, and generally good machines, but if you had the choice between pretty and useable...

I've used macs and pcs for a long time and still have to google for what seemingly random combination of keys does things on a mac, since they're not listed in the little booklet you get and macs don't give useful error messages. Try turning it off and on, then mashing all the keys at once. Might work.

[jimtron]

For those of you with slot-loading Macs--how often do you have problems ejecting discs? AFAIK it's not a significant issue. For some people, it's a higher priority to have an aesthetically pleasing computer on their desk. I don't know if it would be possible or practical to have an optical drive with eject button and paper clip hole in an iMac or Mac Mini. If you're more the pragmatic type, PCs are probably the way to go. I don't think Macs are better or worse than PCs--it's a matter of taste, in my view. But I don't buy the argument that slot-loading optical drives are an example of "horrendous design." Some people would rather have an aluminum iMac on their desk, and would consider the average PC tower to be aesthetically horrendous. It comes down to one's taste and priorities.

[AgeGap]

...... Or if it's really stuck, stick a straightened paper clip in the small hole at the front of the drive.
Tried that on a PC that had a live CD in the drive that would not shut down. All I got was nasty grinding noises. Pulled the plug out of the wall to restore harmony. The PC was OK after that. Just goes to show that panic is not always the wrong answer.

[jimtron]

Tried that on a PC that had a live CD in the drive that would not shut down. All I got was nasty grinding noises. Pulled the plug out of the wall to restore harmony. The PC was OK after that. Just goes to show that panic is not always the wrong answer.

Exactly. I'm not sure if slot-loading optical drives are more likely to cause problems (CD getting stuck or whatever) than the alternative (optical drives with eject buttons and paper clip holes). But if anyone has evidence to the contrary, let us know.

[Little 10 Toes]

... and this is why I stick with my C64 cassette tape drive. :D

[Piscivore]

"...Kick him in the sporran!" Ba-dump *tish*

[jimtron]

... and this is why I stick with my C64 cassette tape drive. :D
Linear storage is the best storage, I always say.

[Arthur Denton]

MAC. Cause it's not better than Windows, you have to use Itunes, and it's everything about software operations. Physical buttons? Bah! Long live the Hype.

[HarryKeogh]

MAC. Cause it's not better than Windows, you have to use Itunes, and it's everything about software operations. Physical buttons? Bah! Long live the Hype.

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm...wha?

[jimtron]

By the way, most if not all new Macs have physical eject buttons on the keyboards. And again, is there any evidence that slot-loading Macs have more stuck-CD problems than non-slot-loading computers? Are we certain that it's a significant problem not having an eject button on the actual drive itself?

MAC. Cause it's not better than Windows, you have to use Itunes, and it's everything about software operations. Physical buttons? Bah! Long live the Hype. If you prefer Vista, go for it. You have to use iTunes for what?

[GreNME]

To the OP, try in this order:

Hold down F12 for between 4 and 10 seconds.
Boot up while holding down the mouse button.
Restart into Open Firmware by holding command-option-O-F, then enter eject-cd.
Uses Terminal, type drutil tray eject
If you have more than one optical (or removable) drive, then open Terminal, type drutil list to list your removable drives. Figure out which number is the CD drive giving you trouble, then type drutil tray eject n, with n being the number of the drive.


If none of those work, you can try the old paperclip trick if your drive has one of those tiny pinholes, otherwise you need to take it to the APL store.


----------

To all the "Get a PC" morons: There are PCs out there with a slot-loading optical drive...

Yes, but even those drives have a hardware eject button. It's not the operating system being run, it's the lack of a hardware override.

ETA:By the way, most if not all new Macs have physical eject buttons on the keyboards.

My G4 iBook has that, and it's the F12 key (hence my mention).

[jimtron]

Grenme:

See posts #7 and #16.

I noticed a few arguments from ignorance on this thread:

#12None of the current lines of Macs has any of the things you mentioned. It's a pure slot-loading drive. Wrong, as I pointed out, there are current Macs with non-slot-loading optical drives. Not to mention that the OP didn't mention if his Mac was current or not, or whether it was slot-loading or not.


#19 What, no button on the physical drive?

That is truly bad design. Appalling. This was in response to the OP. How do you know it doesn't have a button on the physical drive? AFAIK, Ron didn't mention which Mac he has--it might be slot-loading, or it might not be. Also, if the icon didn't show up on the desktop, if he did have an eject button on the front of the optical drive, that wouldn't necessarily eject it. That button doesn't work 100% of the time, on Macs or non-Macs.

#21 That's still an electronic solution. If they don't have a mechanical button for a mechanical device, it is horrendous design.

It's bad design because it's arrogant design. It banks on the software always working. Ain't so. This may or may not be an argument from ignorance. Do we know for sure that computers without eject buttons on the front of the optical drive are less likely to cause problems (such as can't eject disc) than slot-loading (ie, iMacs) computers? I'm not necessarily buying that slot-loading computers cause more disc problems than otherwise, but I'm open to good evidence.

#22 Yes, no physical/mechanical eject button that's accessible without opening the case. It's one of the few things I was worried about before I got the MacBook. So far, it has worked surprisingly well. Just pointing out that not having a "mechanical" eject button is working surprisingly well for at least one person. Also, the above quote is about Macbooks. Do PC laptops have a mechanical button for ejecting optical discs (sincere, not rhetorical question)?

#32 MAC. Cause it's not better than Windows, you have to use Itunes, and it's everything about software operations. Physical buttons? Bah! Long live the Hype. I asked in an earlier post and am still waiting to hear what "you have to use iTunes" means. You don't have to use iTunes to play MP3s--so I'm not sure what this means. But I'll wait to find out. Also, as far as "physical buttons," most Macs have physical buttons to eject optical discs. They're on the keyboard, as well as on the front of the optical drive if you have a Mac Pro or older Mac.

[Ron_Tomkins]

···

I don't actually have that button on the screen.

But I do have it on my keyboard as I recently discovered thanks to the collaborations of the fellow posters.


I am new to Mac, as you shall understand.

[jimtron]

I don't actually have that button on the screen.

But I do have it on my keyboard as I recently discovered thanks to the collaborations of the fellow posters.


I am new to Mac, as you shall understand.

Slot-loading, or tray drive (ie, does a tray pop out when you eject the drive, or is there just a slot you insert the disc into)?

[NobbyNobbs]

For those of you with slot-loading Macs--how often do you have problems ejecting discs? AFAIK it's not a significant issue.

I had mine for 5 years. I encountered the problem twice in that time, and one of those times it turns out I had put the disk in upside down.

(Whether that actually caused the problem or not, I don't know. I don't see why it should, but I thought I'd mention it.)

[fuelair]

Just follow the point in my sig.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Slot-loading, or tray drive (ie, does a tray pop out when you eject the drive, or is there just a slot you insert the disc into)?

There's just a slot I insert the disc into.

I use a MacBook Pro

[Verde]

Do PC laptops have a mechanical button for ejecting optical discs (sincere, not rhetorical question)?

I can't speak for all laptops, of course, but my work-supplied Dell D630 has a little hole on the DVD drive.
I just put a CD in there, disconnected the power, and prodded the hole with a small screwdriver. The drive opened enough to remove the disk.

V.

[CFLarsen]

However, the CD-drives in PC's can be blocked too from opening! The software can instruct the drive to ignore a push on the "open" button.

You may not see this behaviour with Windows, but you can see it with Linux. Linux - as every UNIX - requires that a disk (or partition) be mounted before the filesystem on it can be used; and likewise, that it be unmounted before you remove the disk from your system.

(If you want to see a reason for this, try it with a floppy. Copy a 1MB file to the floppy. That happens instantaneous, you won't hear the floppy - all writes are still in the kernel cache. Then when you issue the unmount command, you'll hear actually write the file to floppy.)

So, when you put in a CD and mount it under Linux, the Linux kernel will issue a command to the drive that it must disable the "open" button. All CD-drives, except for the very early IDE drives, do this. You can simply check this by having a file from the CD in use and then push the button. It won't open.

So that "software can be faulty" argument doesn't hold. And on a Mac - with MacOS, another flavour of UNIX as OS - the same reasoning as for Linux applies - the software would logically need to disable the button while the CD is in use. So why have a button at all?

For one simple reason: Software does not always work.

Note: An electronic solution is not always a software solution. It could be pure circuitry. As long as there's power in the battery, it could work, whether the CPU and hard drive work or not.

As long...yes. Perhaps.

As far as physical buttons are concerned, a non-slot-loading drive will have a paperclip button. This is a purely physical mechanism, and is sane. Anything that doesn't have this mechanism will end in trouble if a fault develops, and the only way around it would be to remove and disassemble the drive.
On a PC, this can take 10 minutes - on a mac, this can take longer than the remaining time in the universe before heat death. Trust me.

Macs are pretty, and generally good machines, but if you had the choice between pretty and useable...

Exactly.

For those of you with slot-loading Macs--how often do you have problems ejecting discs? AFAIK it's not a significant issue.

By the way, most if not all new Macs have physical eject buttons on the keyboards. And again, is there any evidence that slot-loading Macs have more stuck-CD problems than non-slot-loading computers? Are we certain that it's a significant problem not having an eject button on the actual drive itself?

It isn't a question of how often it happens, but a question of what you are going to do when it happens.

Murphy's law was written for this type of flaws.

[ddt]

However, the CD-drives in PC's can be blocked too from opening! The software can instruct the drive to ignore a push on the "open" button.

You may not see this behaviour with Windows, but you can see it with Linux. Linux - as every UNIX - requires that a disk (or partition) be mounted before the filesystem on it can be used; and likewise, that it be unmounted before you remove the disk from your system.

(If you want to see a reason for this, try it with a floppy. Copy a 1MB file to the floppy. That happens instantaneous, you won't hear the floppy - all writes are still in the kernel cache. Then when you issue the unmount command, you'll hear actually write the file to floppy.)

So, when you put in a CD and mount it under Linux, the Linux kernel will issue a command to the drive that it must disable the "open" button. All CD-drives, except for the very early IDE drives, do this. You can simply check this by having a file from the CD in use and then push the button. It won't open.

So that "software can be faulty" argument doesn't hold. And on a Mac - with MacOS, another flavour of UNIX as OS - the same reasoning as for Linux applies - the software would logically need to disable the button while the CD is in use. So why have a button at all?

For one simple reason: Software does not always work.
Your answer does not address the issue I brought up at all. Is this Claus-I-won't-admit-to-be-wrong-mode, or is did you just not get my explanation?

The issue of disabling the open-button is one of data integrity. The OS's kernel will not let you remove a disk/partition/volume/... as long as it's in use. And I trust the OS's kernel - Windows included - much more than a human being in administering such things truthfully. Now the issue is less pressing with CD's/DVD's than with floppies - you can't use them read/write - I think the principle still holds that you should not be able to eject them while still in use.

I'll gladly tackle your "software does not always work" argument: that's indeed what the paperclip-hole is for. An emergency measure, not a simple, innocently looking open-button you can press at any time.

[CFLarsen]

Your answer does not address the issue I brought up at all. Is this Claus-I-won't-admit-to-be-wrong-mode, or is did you just not get my explanation?

You asked a question. I answered it.

The issue of disabling the open-button is one of data integrity. The OS's kernel will not let you remove a disk/partition/volume/... as long as it's in use. And I trust the OS's kernel - Windows included - much more than a human being in administering such things truthfully. Now the issue is less pressing with CD's/DVD's than with floppies - you can't use them read/write - I think the principle still holds that you should not be able to eject them while still in use.

I know there is a question of data integrity. But you have to understand that one thing overrides that:

The user must always be in full control.

If he pushes the button, that means he wants to open the drive. He takes specific action - action that he normally performs when he inserts/removes disks from the drive. The button is near the slot, it makes sense that it is there, rather than for the user to look for some icon or function more-or-less hidden away on his monitor.

Can he push the button by accident? Sure! Can he lose data that way? Sure! Is there a guaranteed way that he won't ever lose data? Nope!

The question is: Who is in control here, the user or the software? Both are error-prone, but it is far better to have the user make his own mistakes, than to have the computer take control.

By default, the software should not prevent the user from pushing the button. The software should only step in with a warning in case all data hasn't been saved. Otherwise, the user must be free to do whatever he wants.

I'll gladly tackle your "software does not always work" argument: that's indeed what the paperclip-hole is for. An emergency measure, not a simple, innocently looking open-button you can press at any time.

No, that's what the button should be for. The paperclip-hole should be for ultra-emergencies, to circumvent the lock in case the button doesn't work.

If you can open the drive at any time anyway, why have a software lock on the button?

Oh, incidentally: My professional field of expertise is usability and user interface design.

[Arthur Denton]

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm...wha?

May the lord help me figure it too :P

[ddt]

I know there is a question of data integrity.
OK. Ever wondered when writing to a floppy if it was safe to remove it?


But you have to understand that one thing overrides that:

The user must always be in full control.
I don't agree. root must be in full control. the luser is an ignorant fool who is only (unknowingly) intent on compromising the system.

The correct order of actions when using a CD or DVD is:

physically insert the disk
mount the disk
use the data on the disk
unmount the disk
physically remove the disk

It is an unfortunate misunderstanding on the part of Microsoft that it doesn't have steps 2 and 4. Somehow they assume that every disk/partition I have in my system I also actually want to use; quod non. Missing step 4 means a compromise of data integrity for all (writable) removable media such as floppies and USB sticks.

As you see, there is nothing wrong with blocking the action of the open button of the drive as long as you haven't performed step 5. Steps 4&5 are also clearly the symmetrical actions of steps 1&2, and, as to be expected, in reverse order.


If he pushes the button, that means he wants to open the drive. He takes specific action - action that he normally performs when he inserts/removes disks from the drive. The button is near the slot, it makes sense that it is there, rather than for the user to look for some icon or function more-or-less hidden away on his monitor.
See below.


Can he push the button by accident? Sure! Can he lose data that way? Sure! Is there a guaranteed way that he won't ever lose data? Nope!
Not on a system I'd administer. The sysadmin - yes, but s/he knows this and can find out which application is blocking the unmount by typing something like
# fuser -m /media/mydisk
But the sort of luser-friendliness you advocate is precisely why the average home Windows PC is infested with viruses, worms and other kind of malware.


The question is: Who is in control here, the user or the software? Both are error-prone, but it is far better to have the user make his own mistakes, than to have the computer take control.
It's clear we have a different outlook about which one is more error-prone.


By default, the software should not prevent the user from pushing the button. The software should only step in with a warning in case all data hasn't been saved. Otherwise, the user must be free to do whatever he wants.
I did a little test on two of my machines: my Linux desktop (Fedora Core 6) and my iBook G4 with MacOS 10.3 "Panther".

First Fedora Core 6 with a Gnome desktop. After inserting the DVD, it detects it and automatically mounts the disk. Pushing the open button on the drive makes it automatically unmount the disk and open the tray. Right-clicking on the icon on the desktop and choosing "Eject" did the same.

Then I inserted the DVD and subsequently did a 'cd' in a terminal-window to the root-directory of the disk. Both actions outlined above (pressing the open button, resp. right clicking the desktop icon) resulted in a pop-up with a message like: "Could not unmount volume. Try quitting applications".

Secondly MacOS 10.3. My iBook has a slot loading drive, so it has no open button. I tried (1) to click the "eject" icon in a Finder window, (2) to Ctrl-Click the desktop icon, and (3) to press fn-F12. All cases resulted, of course, in ejecting the disk.

Then I inserted the DVD and did a 'cd' in a terminal-window to the root-directory of the disk. Cases (1) and (2) both led to a pop-up window with the message: "The disk "Fedora 9" is in use and could not be ejected. Try quitting applications and try again". Case (3) did not result in any action or pop-up window.

From a usability standpoint, I'm satisfied with this behaviour in general - except for case (3) with MacOS, and I couldn't test what MacOS does when there is an eject button. But in the other cases - it gives me a message that it is unsafe to eject the disk and I should first solve that.


No, that's what the button should be for. The paperclip-hole should be for ultra-emergencies, to circumvent the lock in case the button doesn't work.
Does that mean we agree? I'd qualify the case where you can't kill the apps that use the disk as an ultra-emergency. There's always a text-terminal you can log into as root and kill them, isn't there? :)


If you can open the drive at any time anyway, why have a software lock on the button?
As long as there's nothing in the drive, or there is a CD in it that is not mounted (which is possible), it is safe to open it. As soon as you have the disk in use, it is not.


Oh, incidentally: My professional field of expertise is usability and user interface design.
My expertise is UNIX/Linux administration. Does it show? :D

[CFLarsen]

OK. Ever wondered when writing to a floppy if it was safe to remove it?

See previous post.

I don't agree. root must be in full control. the luser is an ignorant fool who is only (unknowingly) intent on compromising the system.

It is thanks to this kind of thinking that I will never go hungry.

The correct order of actions when using a CD or DVD is:

physically insert the disk
mount the disk
use the data on the disk
unmount the disk
physically remove the disk

It is an unfortunate misunderstanding on the part of Microsoft that it doesn't have steps 2 and 4. Somehow they assume that every disk/partition I have in my system I also actually want to use; quod non. Missing step 4 means a compromise of data integrity for all (writable) removable media such as floppies and USB sticks.

As you see, there is nothing wrong with blocking the action of the open button of the drive as long as you haven't performed step 5. Steps 4&5 are also clearly the symmetrical actions of steps 1&2, and, as to be expected, in reverse order.

The idea of "mounting" a disk will be utterly incomprehensible to the average user.

Not on a system I'd administer. The sysadmin - yes, but s/he knows this and can find out which application is blocking the unmount by typing something like
# fuser -m /media/mydisk

This is completely gibberish to the user. Why do you insist that he communicates with the computer in a manner that is more computer-centric than human-centric?

Do you write low-level code every time you communicate with a computer?

But the sort of luser-friendliness you advocate is precisely why the average home Windows PC is infested with viruses, worms and other kind of malware.

No, the average home Windows PC is infested with viruses, worms and other kind of malware because Windows PCs are by far the most widespread configuration among personal computers.

Not only are you ignorant of usability, you are also spreading false information.

It's clear we have a different outlook about which one is more error-prone.

You could well argue that users are more error-prone, but the thing you are missing is that, even if the user is the cause of the error, the user was still in control. There is nothing as frustrating as having control taken away from you.

It is clear that you view computers from a technician's point of view, while I view them from the user's point of view. Which view do you think should govern how people use computers?

I did a little test on two of my machines: my Linux desktop (Fedora Core 6) and my iBook G4 with MacOS 10.3 "Panther".

I don't care. You are clearly not a common computer user.

Does that mean we agree? I'd qualify the case where you can't kill the apps that use the disk as an ultra-emergency. There's always a text-terminal you can log into as root and kill them, isn't there? :)

No, we don't agree. The button is there for every day use, the paperclip hole is for ultra-emergencies.

As long as there's nothing in the drive, or there is a CD in it that is not mounted (which is possible), it is safe to open it. As soon as you have the disk in use, it is not.

See above.

My expertise is UNIX/Linux administration. Does it show? :D

Yes, it does. Stick to that, and leave usability to the professionals. You should certainly not lecture people on how stupid they are, just because they don't have your technical expertise - e.g., by calling them "lusers".

[jimtron]

The user must always be in full control.

If he pushes the button, that means he wants to open the drive. He takes specific action - action that he normally performs when he inserts/removes disks from the drive. The button is near the slot, it makes sense that it is there, rather than for the user to look for some icon or function more-or-less hidden away on his monitor.

Can he push the button by accident? Sure! Can he lose data that way? Sure! Is there a guaranteed way that he won't ever lose data? Nope!I'm sure there are many sophisticated computer users here. But the typical computer user needs to be, and I believe wants to be, saved from themselves. I would be willing to wager that if you gave the average computer user the choice of a) having the power and control of ejecting a disc anytime, which could result in data loss or other problems, vs. b) you use the GUI or eject button on your keyboard, which will eject the disc only if it's safe to do so, many more people would choose "b." I find that most computer users don't understand their systems well at all, and are afraid of screwing things up.

[CFLarsen]

I'm sure there are many sophisticated computer users here. But the typical computer user needs to be, and I believe wants to be, saved from themselves. I would be willing to wager that if you gave the average computer user the choice of a) having the power and control of ejecting a disc anytime, which could result in data loss or other problems, vs. b) you use the GUI or eject button on your keyboard, which will eject the disc only if it's safe to do so, many more people would choose "b."

The issue of data loss is something the system should handle - in a way that doesn't take away control from the user. The overriding issue is control: Control that it won't take a long education to exert.

I find that most computer users don't understand their systems well at all, and are afraid of screwing things up.

Yes, they are, and no, they don't understand their "systems" well at all. But the number of computer users has only grown to the number it is today because we are not writing

# fuser -m /media/mydisk

anymore. We press a button(!), the "cup holder" slides out, and, lo and behold: Here's a place we can put our disk! Then, the system recognizes the disk - but leaves it to the user to control when he can get the disk back again.

The user doesn't give a damn how the system is supposed to recognize the disk - and why should he? That is what computers are for. But they are afraid, because too often, their computer runs them - without explaining what it is "they" are doing "wrong".

[ktesibios]

We had a very similar problem with one of the **** iMacs in one of the client lounges at work. The recovery procedure was as follow:

1. Curse vilely.
2. Take computer to Apple repair shop and have them extricate the CD-ROM.
3. Buy computer back from Apple repair shop.
4. Use cheap labelmaker to make label reading "DO NOT TRY TO USE THE CD-ROM DRIVE. IT WILL NOT EJECT YOUR CD".
5. Stick label over CD-ROM loading slot on computer.
6. Curse even more vilely.

[jimtron]

We had a very similar problem with one of the **** iMacs in one of the client lounges at work. The recovery procedure was as follow:

1. Curse vilely.
2. Take computer to Apple repair shop and have them extricate the CD-ROM.
3. Buy computer back from Apple repair shop.
4. Use cheap labelmaker to make label reading "DO NOT TRY TO USE THE CD-ROM DRIVE. IT WILL NOT EJECT YOUR CD".
5. Stick label over CD-ROM loading slot on computer.
6. Curse even more vilely.

That's a broken computer issue, not a slot-loading vs tray-loading, or "no button" issue, right? Just to clarify. Macs and PCs both break sometimes, or don't behave as they're supposed to.

[CFLarsen]

That's a broken computer issue, not a slot-loading vs tray-loading, or "no button" issue, right? Just to clarify. Macs and PCs both break sometimes, or don't behave as they're supposed to.

Well, yes and no.

In the case of them not "behaving" (see how quickly we attribute human nature to machines?), the question is why they don't "behave".

In the case of the OP, it is a case of bad design if the computer locks the disk inside the drive if it can't read it.

In the words of Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park:

God help us; we're in the hands of engineers.

[elgarak]

Well, yes and no.

In the case of them not "behaving" (see how quickly we attribute human nature to machines?), the question is why they don't "behave".

In the case of the OP, it is a case of bad design if the computer locks the disk inside the drive if it can't read it.

In the words of Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park:
I think you're jumping to a wrong conclusion, which you cannot based on the sketchy anecdote (Based on what was written in this thread, I fail to understand what has happened to the OP).

In my experience, Apple design is far from bad, and with a functioning optical drive a locked, unreadable disk is quite unlikely. The disk should have been ejectable with the eject button of the OP's MacBook Pro without reboot, but as I said, the report is too sketchy to be completely sure.

There's also a quite common experience of Windows-trained switchers that happened a few times to myself: Windows trained us to think too complicated. I found myself a few times in situations where I asked myself a similar question to the OP: How the heck do you....? I looked and searched for a Windows-like function the Mac did not have. When I finally found out how to do it, the solution was in ALL CASES very simple and right before me all the time.

[Mercutio]

Well, yes and no.

In the case of them not "behaving" (see how quickly we attribute human nature to machines?) Do you really mean to suggest that only humans can "behave"?

Cos you'd be wrong.

[CFLarsen]

I think you're jumping to a wrong conclusion, which you cannot based on the sketchy anecdote (Based on what was written in this thread, I fail to understand what has happened to the OP).

It is based on there being no button. I seriously doubt that Ron Thomkins couldn't figure out what the button was there for.

There's also a quite common experience of Windows-trained switchers that happened a few times to myself: Windows trained us to think too complicated. I found myself a few times in situations where I asked myself a similar question to the OP: How the heck do you....? I looked and searched for a Windows-like function the Mac did not have. When I finally found out how to do it, the solution was in ALL CASES very simple and right before me all the time.

That goes both ways: Moving from one to another is a confusing experience.

Macs may do a lot for you, but you also lose a lot of control.

Do you really mean to suggest that only humans can "behave"?

Cos you'd be wrong.

As I wrote, I was talking about human behavior.

[Mercutio]

As I wrote, I was talking about human behavior.

As you wrote, you were talking about "human nature". (Go ahead, read it--it's still there.) Implying, as I said, that "behaving" (the quotes were yours) is unique to human nature. Which, of course, it is not. Heck, even computers behave, and misbehave. Take a look at Dictionary.com, and you will find the very first example is "[t]he ship behaves well", and the third is "[t]his plastic behaves strangely under extreme heat or cold."

Why you would be talking about human behavior when Jimtron was speaking of computer behavior is a bit beyond me, as well. But whatever it takes for you to avoid admitting you were wrong....

[CFLarsen]

As you wrote, you were talking about "human nature". (Go ahead, read it--it's still there.) Implying, as I said,

And, as I said, you were wrong to assume that.

that "behaving" (the quotes were yours) is unique to human nature. Which, of course, it is not.

I never said otherwise.

Why you would be talking about human behavior when Jimtron was speaking of computer behavior is a bit beyond me, as well.

It is a bit beyond you that participants can offer their own points in a debate?

But whatever it takes for you to avoid admitting you were wrong....

Here's the thing about debates: jim offered his views, I offered mine. You were so eager to find flaws in my post that you jumped to an unfounded conclusion. And yet, your erroneous conclusion is all due to my "avoiding admitting" I was "wrong"... :rolleyes:

Read what I posted again: I was talking about quickly humans look for behavior in machines and attribute that to human behavior. How could I do that, if I argued that machines don't behave?

You were wrong - not I. Let's see you admit that.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Originally Posted by elgarak
I think you're jumping to a wrong conclusion, which you cannot based on the sketchy anecdote (Based on what was written in this thread, I fail to understand what has happened to the OP).

It is based on there being no button. I seriously doubt that Ron Thomkins couldn't figure out what the button was there for.

Well sir, if I may jump in, as I already explained: there IS such button. I'm just new to Mac and didn't even notice it. But it's right there on the top right corner of the keyboard. I just didn't notice it was there. However, had I noticed it, I wouldn't have started this thread.

And it's "Tomkins". No H. :)

[GreNME]

As you wrote, you were talking about "human nature". (Go ahead, read it--it's still there.) Implying, as I said, that "behaving" (the quotes were yours) is unique to human nature. Which, of course, it is not. Heck, even computers behave, and misbehave. Take a look at Dictionary.com, and you will find the very first example is "[t]he ship behaves well", and the third is "[t]his plastic behaves strangely under extreme heat or cold."

Why you would be talking about human behavior when Jimtron was speaking of computer behavior is a bit beyond me, as well. But whatever it takes for you to avoid admitting you were wrong....

Why did you bother making this argument?

In the context of this thread, what he said about anthropomorphizing what computers do is accurate. It's a case of computers not doing what we want and instead doing what they are told (in this case, through a faulty software interrupt).

I won't claim to know what the holy grail of convincing CFLarsen he's wrong about something is that I see practically everywhere on the JREF forums, but I think it's getting in the way of rationality in this case.

[CFLarsen]

Well sir, if I may jump in, as I already explained: there IS such button. I'm just new to Mac and didn't even notice it. But it's right there on the top right corner of the keyboard. I just didn't notice it was there. However, had I noticed it, I wouldn't have started this thread.

But then, there is no such button near the drive.

It's no wonder you couldn't find it. Why would you even look for it on your keyboard? It's really bad design, because it forces you to do something counter-intuitive. You turn on your monitor on your monitor. You turn on your speakers on your speakers. You turn on your computer on your computer.

So why the hell would you think of operating your cd rom drive from your keyboard?

And it's "Tomkins". No H. :)

Tank you! :)

[gumboot]

If I may be so bold, I think this is a rather silly discussion and some of you seem to be arguing at cross purposes...

For example, the cited examples of the floppy disk and USB memory stick have come up as external drives that can result in corrupted data if removed while in use. However I have never, ever in my many years of computer use ever come across a computer - of any type and any operating system - which can prevent the user from removing a floppy disc or USB memory stick while it is being used. That goes for PCs, windows, LINUX, Macs, C64s... not one. In the case of USB sticks, I frankly cannot even think of any way in which the operating system could prevent this.

What some OS's do is warn the user not to do this, and facilitate correct procedure including unmounting of the device prior to removal. Windows in one such OS that does this, with the "Safely Remove Hardware" device which appears in the task tray whenever you insert a USB stick or external hard drive or similar. Now if I want to protect my data I know to unmount it first, however if I want to I can just pull the damn thing out. I'm not as familiar with Mac OS, but I suspect it's a similar story - I do know for certain that you can just yank a USB stick out of a Mac if you wish, and there's nothing the Mac can do to stop you.

In this regard I see absolutely no difference whatsoever between the various operating systems.

So I don't know why anyone brought up anything other than CDs, because frankly they seem to be irrelevant.

As for CDs... there seems to be a bit of crossing over of distinctions here. "Mac" (or "Apple") and "PC" are often used to describe both distinct hardware, and distinct operating systems. This becomes problematic when take into account that the operating system and hardware are not necessarily mutual - I can run Mac OS on PC hardware and I can run Windows on Apple hardware. It becomes even more problematic when you introduce a third operating system which can be used on both types of hardware. And finally it becomes even more problematic when you are discussing a problem that's potentially a combination of hardware and software - ejecting a CD.

The problem with some Macs in this situation is that hardware and software have been linked together in such a way that they're functionally one in the same. So you don't have an eject button on your hardware - the physical drive - but only software ejection capabilities (using a designated key on the keyboard still constitutes a software ejection).

This is all well and good when everything is going well, but it's problematic when something goes wrong and you need to physically override the software.

The question really is whether you should have a hardware eject function which is entirely independent of your software or not. I'm inclined to think you should, because I'm inclined to believe that software is not 100% faultless.

The next question is of course what form that hardware eject should take. One option is the pin-hole eject found on many drives. Another option is to have a standard eject button. The pinhole is a pain, because, well, you need to go find yourself a pin to use it. But in saying that it has the advantage of better protecting your data because you can't accidentally bump the button while you're in the middle of writing a CD or something.

[moopet]

However I have never, ever in my many years of computer use ever come across a computer - of any type and any operating system - which can prevent the user from removing a floppy disc or USB memory stick while it is being used. That goes for PCs, windows, LINUX, Macs, C64s... not one. In the case of USB sticks, I frankly cannot even think of any way in which the operating system could prevent this.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Macintosh_classic.jpg

Can you find the eject button for the floppy drive? No: it's held ransom until the OS decides to spit it out again. Standard practice for Mr. Macintosh.

[Ron_Tomkins]

But then, there is no such button near the drive.

It's no wonder you couldn't find it. Why would you even look for it on your keyboard? It's really bad design, because it forces you to do something counter-intuitive. You turn on your monitor on your monitor. You turn on your speakers on your speakers. You turn on your computer on your computer.

So why the hell would you think of operating your cd rom drive from your keyboard?

Yeah, I guess it's "bad design".
But I still love my mac.

[joobie]

man, all this dumb stuff for a question i answered correctly in post #2.

[ktesibios]

Actually, I have worked with a computer that could physically prevent the user from removing a floppy. It was the original GML labs mix automation system computer. This was a VMEBus box with two 68020 processors that ran a Unix-like OS called Idris. It had an 8" floppy drive for archiving mix files and doing software installs.

That drive loaded like the 5.25" floppies we remember from early IBM PCs- open door, insert floppy, close door. The mechanism had a solenoid which, when energized, locked the loading door. There were two LEDs on the front panel, one for "disk access" and the other for "door locked".

IIRC, (it's been over twelve years), you couldn't remove the disk until it had been dismounted. The idea seems to have been to prevent the user from removing the disk while the heads were engaged, which could have damaged both disk and drive. Fortunately, I don't remember that feature ever causing any problems. The system's other little idiosyncrasies were entertainment enough.

[jimtron]

man, all this dumb stuff for a question i answered correctly in post #2.

What you suggested was accurate, but Ron admitted it was user error--he didn't know about the eject button on the keyboard.

If you don't like Macs, don't use them. I'd be willing to bet though, that for the vast majority of slot-loading Mac users, the lack of an eject button on the actual drive is a non-issue. Yes, I get that the eject button on the keyboard is a software control, and if the CD gets stuck you won't be able to physically eject it with a button. However, how often do CDs get stuck in slot-loading Macs? Is it a common problem? And isn't is it virtually always fixed by restarting the computer?

The lack of a physical eject button is not a design flaw. It may be a negative for some people, but it's a choice. The Apple aesthetic, like it or not, is about less buttons and stuff. And just because a computer has an optical drive with a physical eject button doesn't mean it will always work. All software and hardware sometimes fails.

Are many Mac owners complaining about the lack of an eject button on their optical drive? And how would that even work on an iMac?

[negativ]

But then, there is no such button near the drive.

It's no wonder you couldn't find it. Why would you even look for it on your keyboard? It's really bad design, because it forces you to do something counter-intuitive. You turn on your monitor on your monitor. You turn on your speakers on your speakers. You turn on your computer on your computer.

So why the hell would you think of operating your cd rom drive from your keyboard?


The command to perform an action should be accessed somewhere other than the primary interface for issuing commands to perform other actions. Yay!

[jimtron]

The command to perform an action should be accessed somewhere other than the primary interface for issuing commands to perform other actions. Yay!

Why? Would an iMac be better with a button on the side for ejecting CDs? Do you really think the average Mac would prefer to have an eject button on the side of their monitor/computer (in the case of the iMac) as opposed to the eject button on the keyboard (as well as being able to eject discs using the Finder)?

I completely understand that some people don't like the Mac aesthetic, or don't like Macs for other reasons. Which is fine, I wouldn't argue with that--its a matter of personal preference. But I really doubt that the folks who like Macs would prefer a button right by the slot. My Mac Pro has a regular optical drive with an eject button under the tray. I can't recall ever using it. The keyboard eject is very convenient--my fingers spend a lot of time there.

[CFLarsen]

The command to perform an action should be accessed somewhere other than the primary interface for issuing commands to perform other actions. Yay!

You also want the power switches on your attached drives to be accessible only from the computer's keyboard? Anything you hook up to your computer should have a designated key?

[theMark]

You also want the power switches on your attached drives to be accessible only from the computer's keyboard? Anything you hook up to your computer should have a designated key?

Isn't that kind of non sequitur?

In an ideal world, drives would a) power on together with the bus coming alive (at least two external WD drives on my Mac - one USB, one Firewire - actually do that), and/or b) those drive manufacturers might get a clue as to NOT hide the friggin' on/off switch at the *back* of the enclosure. Doing calisthenics just to turn on/off a drive might be a welcome break from office boredom, OTOH.

And, I'd like to repeat, how does the idea of creating one central interface for the operation lead to "anything you hook up to your computer should have a designated key"? (not even going near the topic of keyboards with "hot keys" and "multimedia keys" and/or "volume dials"... seems there's already a market for those things :)

Oh, in case anyone's been wondering - all those add-ons on my boxes were "designed for Windows" ;)

[joobie]

What you suggested was accurate, but Ron admitted it was user error--he didn't know about the eject button on the keyboard.

iirc coorectly there was no finder icon for the cd, so imo the best bet would have still been to reboot and hold the mouse button down.

i am guessing in this day and age you'd have to hold down the left button.

i once had to eject a cd this way, in about 1994.

:)

[Richard Masters]

pray

[chulbert]

That's still an electronic solution. If they don't have a mechanical button for a mechanical device, it is horrendous design.

You're right; fortunately I've never seen an optical drive that didn't have a method to mechanically eject the disc. It's not the preferred method so it's usually hidden but it's there.

[moopet]

man, all this dumb stuff for a question i answered correctly in post #2.

If you can find a thread on this forum that ended when the OP was answered, I'll give you a banana.

[Ron_Tomkins]

:D

[Bob Blaylock]

Can you find the eject button for the floppy drive? No: it's held ransom until the OS decides to spit it out again. Standard practice for Mr. Macintosh.


http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11672&d=1218511895

[Ron_Tomkins]

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11672&d=1218511895

Doesn't that belong in the sex thread?

[moopet]

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11672&d=1218511895

That's the emergency eject button, not the normal use eject button. Yes, I can see the hole, and I know what it is. Read the rest of the thread for discussion of why they're different.

[Michelle Lyon]

LOL I feel that pain! It took me hours the first time I used a Mac to figure out how to eject.

On the Macs I use (OS10) there's no button on the drive. There's a button on the keyboard to eject CD's. It's at the upper-right-most corner above the number key pad, it has a symbol that looks like a triangle with a line underneath. That's the eject button. Push it.

[Bob Blaylock]

That's the emergency eject button, not the normal use eject button. Yes, I can see the hole, and I know what it is. Read the rest of the thread for discussion of why they're different.


The point is that if you need (or stubbornly insist on) a hardware-based eject mechanism, it's there. You just need to use a piece of paperclip wire or a similar tool to use it.

There is a very, very good reason why the Macintosh prefers software-based ejection of removable media. If a floppy disk, or other writable media is ejected at the wrong time, its contents can become corrupted. This is equally true of Windows-based systems, and of other systems as well. By using a software-controlled ejection system, the Macintosh is able to avoid this problem. The medium isn't ejected until the system has flushed all the write buffers and made sure that it is in a proper, consistent state.

The hardware eject is there, if you really need it, but the system is wisely designed specifically to discourage you from using it unnecessarily.

[jimtron]

The bottom line: if you don't like Macs, don't use them (if you think they're overpriced, or pretentious, or if you feel Apple dumbs things down or whatever). If you think the iMac or Mac Mini is swell, you won't get an eject button (you will get an eject button on the keyboard, and you can eject discs with the OS, but you won't get a "physical" eject button by the optical drive), but it's not a significant problem.

For those who like Macs, I highly doubt the lack of an eject button by the optical drive is an issue at all. I've owned many Macs, and would consider myself an advanced computer user. I've owned both tray and slot loading Macs. Very rarely I've had problems with discs getting stuck, but I highly doubt the occurrence is any greater with Macs than with PCs. And usually a restart is all that's needed. The slot-loading drives are great--I don't know how else you could pull off an iMac, where the computer is inside what looks like only a monitor, pretty much, with a big tray loading drive with button.

There are advantages and disadvantages to having a mechanical tray-eject button. If it's important to you, then don't get a slot-loading computer. If you think slot-loading optical drives are more elegant, that might be what you want, even if there might be a trade off--you can't mechanically eject the disc.

eta: Take a look at the latest iMac--look at the side with the optical drive slot. Do you really want a button there?

[Ron_Tomkins]

eta: Take a look at the latest iMac--look at the side with the optical drive slot. Do you really want a button there?

Well.... now that you say it with that tone... I can't resist the temptation to say "No" :)

[jimtron]

Well.... now that you say it with that tone... I can't resist the temptation to say "No" :)
I wouldn't want a button there either.

By the way, I think all of us here would agree that this is (http://www.crazypc.com/other/misc/toast.htm) where it's at--a different kind of disc burning.

[moopet]

There is a very, very good reason why the Macintosh prefers software-based ejection of removable media.

Again, I understand the concept - my post was answering gumboot.

[gumboot]

This thread is quite ironic because just last week I was on a job and the PMs printer was broken so I brought mine along, but we had to install drivers to get it to work with her mac laptop, which was fine - I brought the CD as well. Except we couldn't put the CD in the laptop - there was something already in there. And we couldn't get it out. I tried all of the tricks suggested in this thread - at least all the ones that could be achieved in the circumstances.

Didn't work.

So we had to give up, and ask the hotel to print out our documents.

The PM began to wonder why I was giggling at the situation, but I decided it would take too long to explain.

[gumboot]

Again, I understand the concept - my post was answering gumboot.


The ones like that we had at school, the disc stuck out a little bit. You could just yank it out, if you really wanted to.

For what its worth the mac laptop my PM was using didn't even have the emergency pin hole eject button, so God only knows how she's going to get the disc out that is in it.

[uruk]

However, the CD-drives in PC's can be blocked too from opening! The software can instruct the drive to ignore a push on the "open" button. The software block is no match for the paper clip. the little hole in front of the drive, right below the drive door pushes up against a mechanical lever. If the software fights the lever all you have to do is shut off the computer.

[uruk]

For what its worth the mac laptop my PM was using didn't even have the emergency pin hole eject button, so God only knows how she's going to get the disc out that is in it. By violating the warranty with extreme predjudice!

[ddt]

The software block is no match for the paper clip. the little hole in front of the drive, right below the drive door pushes up against a mechanical lever. If the software fights the lever all you have to do is shut off the computer.

You're absolutely right. But the paper clip is an emergency procedure which you'll only do if all else fails. My point was that the normal way - pushing the normal eject button - can be blocked by software, and vice versa, the software (the OS) can detect you've pushed the button and give an on-screen warning why it was blocked.

[gumboot]

This might sounds crazy, but once in an old PC I had, the CD drive was making these crazy sounds, the kind that make you think "oh no this can't be good". I couldn't read the CD or anything. So I ejected it. It wouldn't come out at first, but after a couple of presses of the eject button the trap opens, and a spinning CD comes flying out and whizzes past me!

That was so, so weird.

[jimtron]

This might sounds crazy, but once in an old PC I had, the CD drive was making these crazy sounds, the kind that make you think "oh no this can't be good". I couldn't read the CD or anything. So I ejected it. It wouldn't come out at first, but after a couple of presses of the eject button the trap opens, and a spinning CD comes flying out and whizzes past me!

That was so, so weird.

IFO dude.

[uruk]

This might sounds crazy, but once in an old PC I had, the CD drive was making these crazy sounds, the kind that make you think "oh no this can't be good". I couldn't read the CD or anything. So I ejected it. It wouldn't come out at first, but after a couple of presses of the eject button the trap opens, and a spinning CD comes flying out and whizzes past me!

That was so, so weird.

That has happend to me also. I'm not sure exactly what is going on but either the driver or the firmware locks up and the spindle motor just takes off at top speed. It ruined my disc by causing circumfrential scratches when I ejected the tray. The disc just spun there grinding to a halt.

[jimtron]

That has happend to me also. I'm not sure exactly what is going on but either the driver or the firmware locks up and the spindle motor just takes off at top speed. It ruined my disc by causing circumfrential scratches when I ejected the tray. The disc just spun there grinding to a halt.

Is there any evidence that Macs have a higher incidence of disc trouble (discs getting stuck, or something like the above) than PCs?

[Skeptical Greg]

If they don't have a mechanical eject option ( paper clip hole ) - then there is a 100% chance they have a higher eject failure than PC drives with the hole..

[jimtron]

If they don't have a mechanical eject option ( paper clip hole ) - then there is a 100% chance they have a higher eject failure than PC drives with the hole..

I said "disc trouble" including the PC example above. My point is that I haven't seen evidence that slot-loading Macs have more disc problems in general as compared to non-slot-loading PCs.

And I disagree with your statement above. What is the evidence that Macs have a higher eject failure rate than PCs? Does the eject button on PCs work 100% of the time? And you realize that there are several different methods for ejecting discs from slot-loading, Macs, right?

[uruk]

Is there any evidence that Macs have a higher incidence of disc trouble (discs getting stuck, or something like the above) than PCs?
I don't know. That kind of statistic might be hard to locate.

I did a google search using the string "problems with ejecting the CD on a mac" and found 738,000 hits in .26 seconds.

I found 2,020,000 hits in .33 seconds with "problems with ejecting the CD on a PC".

I don't know if that means anything considering factors such as that there are more PCs in use than Macs, etc..

[jimtron]

I don't know. That kind of statistic might be hard to locate.

I did a google search using the string "problems with ejecting the CD on a mac" and found 738,000 hits in .26 seconds.

I found 2,020,000 hits in .33 seconds with "problems with ejecting the CD on a PC".

I don't know if that means anything considering factors such as that there are more PCs in use than Macs, etc..

I agree that those numbers aren't that helpful because Macs have a much smaller market share. However, it does appear to prove that eject problems (let's call it "E.D." from now on) are not unique to slot-loading Mac owners (why does this sound so dirty all of a sudden?).

I still don't buy that slot-loading Macs have more optical disc malfunctions as compared to tray loading PCs. Just because most PCs have mechanical eject buttons doesn't mean that they are less prone to eject or other problems. But if anyone has evidence showing otherwise, please present it.

[jeremyp]

Just because most PCs have mechanical eject buttons doesn't mean that they are less prone to eject or other problems.PCs do not necessarily have mechanical eject buttons any more than Macs do. Just because a button is located in proximity to the tray does not make it mechanical. Any CD eject button that does not function when the power is turned off is not mechanical. I think that discounts virtually all CD eject buttons.

[gumboot]

PCs do not necessarily have mechanical eject buttons any more than Macs do. Just because a button is located in proximity to the tray does not make it mechanical. Any CD eject button that does not function when the power is turned off is not mechanical. I think that discounts virtually all CD eject buttons.


The reference "mechanical eject button" referred to the pinhole eject hole, which does work when the power is turned off, and as I once found out, even works when the CD drive is removed from the computer and half disassembled. It is an entirely mechanical override that will always work, unless the mechanism has been physically damaged in some way.

Some Macs do not have the pinhole eject feature.

[moopet]

FWIW I doubt there are more mechanical failures in Mac drives than in PC drives. They're both made by common manufacturers like Sony and Toshiba.
In my experience (thousands of laptops) slot-loading drives are easier to break my misuse, ramming the disc in when there's another already inside, impatiently grabbing it, etc.

Most problems in tray drives seem to stem from one of these:
People putting a disc in without looking, and laying it on top of one already there, which makes it sound like a slippy DJ and not always eject, even with the pin.
People putting a disc in that's unballanced, eg a chip on one edge which makes it sound like a hairdryer and respond really slowly, but otherwise work.
People putting the disc in and not clipping it onto the spindle firmly, which makes it want to fly off either inside or when ejecting (the frisbee of death mentioned earlier)
People yanking the tray out too far, damaging the ribbon connection or loosening the physical socket at the back.

I have also watched plenty of new laptop owners wince at thre grumbling crunching grinding, face-stabbing-horror noises their slot-loading drives make and seen them look unconvinced when I tell them it's normal.

Because on a PC with a standard drive you can eject the cd with a pin, unscrew the drive and swap it out usually in five minutes or less, this makes the Macs that arrive for repair seem a much bigger problem.

[uruk]

I agree that those numbers aren't that helpful because Macs have a much smaller market share. However, it does appear to prove that eject problems (let's call it "E.D." from now on) are not unique to slot-loading Mac owners (why does this sound so dirty all of a sudden?). Would that be "ejectile disfunction?"

I still don't buy that slot-loading Macs have more optical disc malfunctions as compared to tray loading PCs. Just because most PCs have mechanical eject buttons doesn't mean that they are less prone to eject or other problems. But if anyone has evidence showing otherwise, please present it.
I think you could possibly make an argument that "ejectile disfunction" problems are more easily resolved with a drive that has the paper clip hole than one that doesn't

[jimtron]

Would that be "ejectile disfunction?"
Exactly.

I think you could possibly make an argument that "ejectile disfunction" problems are more easily resolved with a drive that has the paper clip hole than one that doesn't
I agree that might be true. But it might not be, and I don't buy the argument that paperclip hole and/or mechanical eject button necessarily means less eject or other problems. I've only seen speculation so far, no evidence.

[Ron_Tomkins]

So is there any evidence that PC is better than Mac?.... other than the obvious friendship between Gates and Seinfeld.

[jsiv]

Who are you to tell a Mac what to do? It will eject the disc when it feels like it.

[jimtron]

So is there any evidence that PC is better than Mac?.... other than the obvious friendship between Gates and Seinfeld.

Might want to take a look at these threads, if you haven't already:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=123134
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=121686

IMHO it comes down to personal preference.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins
So is there any evidence that PC is better than Mac?.... other than the obvious friendship between Gates and Seinfeld.

Might want to take a look at these threads, if you haven't already:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=123134
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=121686

IMHO it comes down to personal preference.

I see. So there is no evidence then. ;)

[uruk]

I personally don't think one is any better or worse than the other. When people ask me what kind of computer to buy, I tell them "What do you want to do with it?"

Either one works equally well for downloading porn.

[moopet]

Amusingly, I am now in an office at a desk with three PCs and a Mac.
The mac has just gotten a CD stuck in its drive. Its vertical shiny smooth superdrive with no mechanical/emergency eject button.

After half an hour's efforts with plastic shims and cursing, we have a solution:
We turned up the music loud enough to mask the CD drive's constant clicking as it attempts to eject.

Go Mac!

[jimtron]

Amusingly, I am now in an office at a desk with three PCs and a Mac.
The mac has just gotten a CD stuck in its drive. Its vertical shiny smooth superdrive with no mechanical/emergency eject button.

After half an hour's efforts with plastic shims and cursing, we have a solution:
We turned up the music loud enough to mask the CD drive's constant clicking as it attempts to eject.



Here are some suggestions:
http://guides.macrumors.com/Force_Eject_a_Stuck_CD_or_DVD

Go Mac!
Don't discs ever get stuck in non-Mac computers?

[daSkeptic]

Don't discs ever get stuck in non-Mac computers?

Yes.

[Rat]

Here are some suggestions:
http://guides.macrumors.com/Force_Eject_a_Stuck_CD_or_DVD


Don't discs ever get stuck in non-Mac computers?
Define "stuck". :)

[dtugg]

Of course, if that happened in a PC, you could remove the drive, dissemble it, remove the disk, and then replace the drive for $30.

[Rat]

Of course, if that happened in a PC, you could remove the drive, dissemble it, remove the disk, and then replace the drive for $30.
Meh. Although I'm sure they exist, I have never yet come across a PC with an optical drive that didn't have the paperclip hole for ejecting stuck discs.

[moopet]

Here are some suggestions:
http://guides.macrumors.com/Force_Eject_a_Stuck_CD_or_DVD

You know what? I think somewhere you missed the point. The CD is mechanically stuck in the drive. It doesn't care if you download Norton GetMyFeckingCDOut2009, software solutions are useless.


Don't discs ever get stuck in non-Mac computers?
See any of the other posts in this thread for an enlivened discussion of just this topic.

[jimtron]

You know what? I think somewhere you missed the point. The CD is mechanically stuck in the drive. It doesn't care if you download Norton GetMyFeckingCDOut2009, software solutions are useless.

Some of those solutions have worked for me in the past, including holding down the mouse button and restarting, and also using the itunes or Toast eject buttons. Just because a disc is "mechanically" stuck in a drive doesn't mean a software solution won't help.


See any of the other posts in this thread for an enlivened discussion of just this topic.Yeah, so far it looks like discs get stuck in both Macs and non-Mac PCs, and I haven't yet seen evidence that it's a more common occurrence with Macs. I was responding to a sarcastic comment that seemed to imply that this problem is unique to Macs, which isn't the case.

[Beerina]

Ok, how the HELL do you eject a cd from a Mac

Same way you eject the tray when it's empty so you can put something in it?

[wuschel]

Ok, how the HELL do you eject a cd from a Mac
There's an app for that!

Not?

[Skeptical Greg]

.... I was responding to a sarcastic comment that seemed to imply that this problem is unique to Macs, which isn't the case.It still remains that most PC CD drives have a mechanical eject solution, while MACs don't, short of disassembling the machine.

[jimtron]

It still remains that most PC CD drives have a mechanical eject solution, while MACs don't, short of disassembling the machine.

1) It's not true that Macs don't have a mechanical eject solution--my Mac Pro has one.
2) iMacs don't have a "mechanical eject solution" afaik. But is there evidence that discs get stuck in iMacs more often than the average non-Mac PC? I still have yet to see evidence that the lack of a paperclip hole or physical button or whatever is a significant problem. I don't know if it is or if it isn't, but the argument I keep hearing is that iMacs don't have a mechanical button, therefore you're screwed if the disc gets stuck. Do mechanical buttons always eject stuck CDs in non-Mac computers? Is it common for discs to remain stuck in iMacs, even after trying the multiple methods for unsticking discs (rebooting with mouse button held down, using the iTunes eject button,etc?

eta: Also, keep in mind that the person that started this thread was new to Macs and was able to eject the disc after rebooting. The disc was not even necessarily stuck.

But I do have (the eject key) on my keyboard as I recently discovered thanks to the collaborations of the fellow posters.

[GreNME]

Do mechanical buttons always eject stuck CDs in non-Mac computers?

Almost always, yeah. At least on Windows machines. That's because Windows mounts the CD differently than does MacOS or Linux/BSD.

[jimtron]

Almost always, yeah. At least on Windows machines. That's because Windows mounts the CD differently than does MacOS or Linux/BSD.

It's almost always possible to eject a CD from an iMac by pressing the eject button on the keyboard. In the rare situations where that doesn't work, there are several other methods that will usually do the trick.