Football (soccer) fans

[kittynh]

PoolBoy just calls from Belgium. Seems the Scots are out in force, already totally smashed before the game has even begun (at 8:30). The Belgium police are already getting geared up, battons and police dogs at the ready. They even have these tear gas pellet guns that can target a smaller area (without the gas drifting towards other people or the police). WE are talking Rodney King on a massive scale, and the only comment people make is that "they should have hit them harder!" PoolBoys friends are saying, "oh , it's the Scots, it will be bad but not as bad as the ENGLISH". The last time the English were there they sent them back on a military cargo plane, maybe even loaded them with forklifts...

Anyway, are the English fans really the worst? What happens to cause shop windows to be smashed and even older men to drink and go wild, too drunk to even remember the game? The Belgiums claim no other nation does this. Come on, doesn't Spain, or Finland have some roudy fans?

[Ove]

Try Italy. Think "Heysel Stadium" Liverpool fans and Juventus ditto. 39 killed and umpteen woonded. The Story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A713909) :(

[Hal 2001]

Don't forget the terror of the Danish roligans.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/795000/images/_797601_roligans150.jpg

otherwise I think, the fans in Italy Greece and turkey can be pretty bad too.



Mss Hal

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by kittynh
PoolBoy just calls from Belgium. Seems the Scots are out in force, already totally smashed before the game has even begun (at 8:30). The Belgium police are already getting geared up, battons and police dogs at the ready. They even have these tear gas pellet guns that can target a smaller area (without the gas drifting towards other people or the police). WE are talking Rodney King on a massive scale, and the only comment people make is that "they should have hit them harder!" PoolBoys friends are saying, "oh , it's the Scots, it will be bad but not as bad as the ENGLISH". The last time the English were there they sent them back on a military cargo plane, maybe even loaded them with forklifts...

Anyway, are the English fans really the worst? What happens to cause shop windows to be smashed and even older men to drink and go wild, too drunk to even remember the game? The Belgiums claim no other nation does this. Come on, doesn't Spain, or Finland have some roudy fans?

Methinks PoolBoy should get some better informed friends...

EURO and World Championships Records

ITALIA'90
England: Hundreds of fans arrested and deported as unruly fans smash up Bologna and Rimini during the World Cup.
Scotland: 25,000 Scots fans spent a peaceful time in Italy with noone being arrested during the 2 week spell.

Sweden - EURO'92
England: 1500 fans deported after riots in Malmo.
Scotland: Fans win the 'Best Supporters' award. No-one arrested. 7 Scots got married. Because of the excellent relationship built up between the Scotland and Sweden supporters during and since EURO'92, the World Cup qualifying match against Sweden in November 1996 sees the Swedish fans seated in same stand as the main core of the Scotland support. You dont see that much in England !

England - EURO'96
England: Widespread civil disturbances, cars burnt, police injured, many arrests, etc.
Scotland: 2nd place in uefa good behaviour supporters awards, fans praised by chief constable of Birmingham etc.

France - W. Cup '98
England: Widespread civil disturbances, riots (Marseille), etc.
Scotland: No arrests + best supporters award (again).

As for Belgium, I was there. There was lots of drinking, lots of drunk people and a massive party in the main square. No trouble, no problems, no riot police, no "Rodney King", no tear gas. The day after the game we were back in the main square (a bit quieter than the day before!) and were stopped by several different Belgians. All were complimentary - one old man said "You may have lost the game, but you are the winners in our hearts."

In fact the Belgian Olympic Committee awarded the travelling fans (the "Tartan Army") their annual Fair Play Award.

http://home.tiscali.be/gr009073/TA_Award/ta_award.html

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Didn't Turkey or Greece recently ban people with British passports from entering their countries while there were football matches being hosted in those countries? I heard on the news a week or so ago that one of those countries were sending British people packing if they did make it into the host country.

[geni]

Many countries have football hooligans (see red star belgrade). The difference with English fan is that the hooligans travel and insist on spoiling everyones fun. Combine this with the local hooligans wanting the kudos of beating up England fans and police with hair trigger nerves and you get a problem.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by geni
Many countries have football hooligans (see red star belgrade). The difference with English fan is that the hooligans travel and insist on spoiling everyones fun. Combine this with the local hooligans wanting the kudos of beating up England fans and police with hair trigger nerves and you get a problem.

Nail on head.

And it seems to be the same guys every time but because they end up getting deported instead of charged and convicted, the government is unable to stop them travelling in the future.

Police know they can get away with "robust" policing and criticised if it gets out of control - resulting in very heavy handed attitude that causes more trouble than it prevents. And that was when the English played in Scotland, where we have less of a language barrier (although the game was in Glasgow :D ).

[kittynh]

well, Pool Boy said the fans were very drunk, but also no damage to buildings or anything. In fact, Pool boy paid the cab fare of some poor Scottish lad, who only figured out he'd lost his wallet when exiting the cab in front of the hotel...

The French speaking Belgiums can be pretty intolerant. As a Scot myself, I'm glad to read that they are very well behaved. Drinking, of course! It would be unpatriotic not to show how well a Scot can hold his drink.

[Ove]

I simply don't understand hooliganism. I saw a documentary on BBC World some time ago and i shook my head in disbelief most of the times. Theese moroons are really not interested in Soccer, it is just an excuse for a good fight. One of them was asked if he was sorry that Britain had lost the right to hold World Cup nex time to the Germans and he said: "No no, it is much more fun to go to Germany and fight than fight home in Britan"

It wasn't your typical stereotype beerdrinking social wash-out either. Some of them was quite well-educated and had good jobs. One of the leaders was as far as i remember a quite sucessful businessman.

Throw them in jail and melt the key.;)

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Ove
I simply don't understand hooliganism. I saw a documentary on BBC World some time ago and i shook my head in disbelief most of the times. Theese moroons are really not interested in Soccer, it is just an excuse for a good fight. One of them was asked if he was sorry that Britain had lost the right to hold World Cup nex time to the Germans and he said: "No no, it is much more fun to go to Germany and fight than fight home in Britan"

It wasn't your typical stereotype beerdrinking social wash-out either. Some of them was quite well-educated and had good jobs. One of the leaders was as far as i remember a quite sucessful businessman.

Throw them in jail and melt the key.;)

Ove - very important distinction required in this context between England and Britain.

See my post above on the respective records of the fans of England and Scotland.

[Ove]

Ove - very important distinction required in this context between England and Britain.

Yes off course, i was talking about England.:D

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe
Didn't Turkey or Greece recently ban people with British passports from entering their countries while there were football matches being hosted in those countries? I heard on the news a week or so ago that one of those countries were sending British people packing if they did make it into the host country.

The 'Tartan Army' has a reputation for good behaviour...

English fans were the original hooligans and their reputation now preceeds them...... somewhat unfairly at times. Local police can be very heavy handed and the football authorities can be very heavy handed when England fans cause trouble.

Recently there was the whole thing about rascist chanting and flag burning by macedonian fans but oddly no-one threatens to chuck them out of the championship.......

The whole thing with Turkey started a year or two back when one or more england fans were murdered by the some Turks. Result? No England fans allowed in Turkey.

Ah hell, I dont even like football, let alone the hooligans. I agree that they should be locked up for a few years in a local jail rather than being deported.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


The 'Tartan Army' has a reputation for good behaviour...



They do now, but that wasn't always the case. At one point they were so notorious that all Scotland fans were banned from matches (In fact, I'm not sure that the Scottish team wasn't banned too - could be wrong).

After that, the fans took themselves in hand and sorted the problem out.

Seems like the England fans could do with a dose of the same.

Of course, Ove is right to say that for the hooligans it is not a case of being a fan, more an opportunity for a fight. Knuckle draggers, the lot of 'em.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by richardm


They do now, but that wasn't always the case. At one point they were so notorious that all Scotland fans were banned from matches (In fact, I'm not sure that the Scottish team wasn't banned too - could be wrong).

After that, the fans took themselves in hand and sorted the problem out.

Seems like the England fans could do with a dose of the same.

Of course, Ove is right to say that for the hooligans it is not a case of being a fan, more an opportunity for a fight. Knuckle draggers, the lot of 'em.

Can you give any specific examples of when the Scotland supporters or team were banned from matches? The only one I can think of was when the annual England-Scotland matches were ongoing and Ted Croker (head of the FA at the time) tried to ban Scotland fans from going to Wembley. There is footage of him at the game with about 30,000 Scots in the background singing "Ban us from Wembley, you'll never ban us from Wembley". His face is a picture.

There were problems with travelling fans in both Scotland and England at this fixture which led to it being discontinued. I am not aware of any significant trouble involving Scotland fans anywhere other than England.

The Scottish national team has NEVER been banned. Rangers were banned from European football in the early 70's due to the "exuberance" of their fans when invading the pitch after winning the European Cup Winners Cup which may be what you are thinking about.

There is now a large element of self-policing within the Tartan Army to protect the good reputation built up.

The situation with England is that UEFA have warned them that if there is trouble at any of their friendlies (and they have in the past caused a friendly to be abandoned as they were throwing seats etc. at opposition fans) they will be thrown out of the Euro championships. Nothing remotely approaching that ever having happened to Scotland - the problem England has now is far worse than anything we have ever had.

That's why I think it is difficult for self-policing to work in the same way. It is one thing to step in and tell a fellow fan he is drunk and making an idiot of himself and embarrassing everyone else. It is something else again to take on a gang of thugs who have travelled with the sole intention of causing trouble. I wish I knew the answer.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet

That's why I think it is difficult for self-policing to work in the same way. It is one thing to step in and tell a fellow fan he is drunk and making an idiot of himself and embarrassing everyone else. It is something else again to take on a gang of thugs who have travelled with the sole intention of causing trouble. I wish I knew the answer.

In so far as hooligans travelling to a different country and causing trouble- remove their passports.

[richardm]

Jaggy -

Perhaps it is just a vague confabulation of all those elements you mentioned. However, I'm sure you'll agree that Scottish fans had a bad reputation, but no more. England fans also had a bad reputation at the same time, but have (so far) failed to overcome it.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by richardm
Jaggy -

Perhaps it is just a vague confabulation of all those elements you mentioned. However, I'm sure you'll agree that Scottish fans had a bad reputation, but no more. England fans also had a bad reputation at the same time, but have (so far) failed to overcome it.

Wouldn't disagree with that. Problem with the English fans was further evidenced this week.

According to the reports from people at the game, Chelsea fans were kept in for an hour after the final whistle before being charged by police in riot gear waving batons about liberally.

Due to past behaviour of a minority of England fans in the past, nobody gives a stuff about this and they are just meant to accept it. Can you imagine the outcry if they did the same to a party of tourists in any other setting? Press and politicians would be outraged, explanations would be demanded etc, etc. For some reason if you are an England football fan you lose any presumption of innocence.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


In so far as hooligans travelling to a different country and causing trouble- remove their passports.

Problem is they can only be prevented from travelling if they are actually convicted of something. Host country is not interested in the costs of trial/jail cell and just kick them out of the country asap. Maybe the gov't should offer to pay costs in event of conviction abroad.

If it was down to me I'd remove a lot more than their passports!

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by richardm
Jaggy -

England fans also had a bad reputation at the same time, but have (so far) failed to overcome it.


Long history of violence / property damage from footballers and their fans

1314, 1315 Edward II bans football, as he felt it led to a breach of the peace.

1349, 1388, 1410 Football was banned from the city of London due to complaints from merchants, and reduced the number of trained and able archers needed to defend the kingdom.

1364 Synod of Ely bans clergy from playing football due to the violent nature of the game

1477 Edward IV issues edict against football

1496 Henry VII issues edict against football

1539 Annual match in Chester abolished due to violence

1555 Football banned in Liverpool due to mayhem

1576 Middlesex County Records reports that 100 men assembled unlawfully to play football. There was a "great affray."

1579 After the start of a match against the students of Cambridge, the townsmen of Chesterton proceeded to assault their opponents with sticks, driving them into the river.

1581 Evanses Feld at Southemyms. One yoeman killed by two others during a football match.

1583 Phillip Stubbes description in The Anatomie of Abuses
I protest unto you that it may rather be called a frendly kind of fyghte than a play or recreation – Rather a bloody and murderous practise than a fellowly sporte or pastime....For dooth not everyone lye in waight for his Adversarie, seeking to overthrowe him and picke him on the nose...though it be uppon hard stones?...So that by this meanes, sometimes their necks are broken, soemtimes there backs, sometimes their legs, sometimes their armes; sometime one part thrust out of joynt; sometime another, sometime their noses gush out with blood, sometimes their eyes start out; and sometimes hurt in one place, sometimes in another....And hereof groweth envie, malice, rancour, choler, displeasure, enmities, and what not els; and sometimes fighting, brawling, contention, quarrel picking, murther, homicide, and great effusion of blood, as experience dayly teacheth.

1608 Football banned in Manchester due to the mayhem caused by "a company of lewd and disordered persons..."

1638 Football crowd destroys drainage ditches on Isle of Ely.

1694 Fenland drainage destroyed during football match

1740 Football match in Kettering turns into a food riot and local mill is destroyed and looted.
Football matches held to tear down enclosure fences at Holland Fen and West Haddon.

1797 Kingston-upon-Thames. Traditional Shrove Tuesday match turned into a riot after three participants were arrested by magistrates.

1843 200 soldiers and 50 policemen were needed to patrol the ropes at a Preston North End v Sunderland match.

1846 A match was stopped in Derby, the riot act was read, and two troops of dragoons called in. The Mayor was injured by the crowd.

1881 At Wigan station two railway officials were knocked unconscious by a group travelling to a Newton Heath v Preston North End game.

1884 P.N.E fans attacked Bolton Wanderers players and spectators at the end of the game.

1885 Aston Villa v Preston. A mob of "roughs" attacked the visiting team with sticks stones and other missiles.

1886 A railway station battle occurred between Preston North End and Queens Park fans.

1888 Report of "a continuous hail of bottles" onto the pitch at an unspecified match.

1889 Small Heath v West Bromwich Albion. Small Heath fans molest strangers.

At Middlewich station a fight broke out between Nantwich and Crewe fans. Nantwich men stormed the platform occupied by Crewe. Many sustained injuries.

1893 During a match between Nottingham Forest and West Bromwich Albion spectators invaded the field and fought with Albionite players.

1896 While returning from a football match, three young men attacked and murdered a police sergeant and injured a constable.

1899 After a match at Shepshed between Albion and Loughborough Corinthians the Loughborough players were stoned and struck.

1905 Preston North End v Blackburn. Several fans tried for hooliganism including a "drunk and disorderly" 70 year old woman.

1906 Tottenham v Aston Villa cup tie had to be abandoned after spectators swarmed onto the pitch at the interval.

1909 6000 spectators involved in a riot at Hampden Park, Glasgow. The pitch was destroyed, 54 police constables were injured, and much damage done to the town.

1920 Birmingham City football fans use bottles as clubs and missiles.

1921 Bradford park closes the boy's section for three months after the referee was pelted with rubbish.

1924 After a match in Brighton the pitch was invaded, the referee chased by the crowd and a policeman knocked unconscious.

1930 Rangers ground closed after unruly conduct of spectators during match against Northampton town. Clapton Orient v Queens Park Rangers. Police called in to stop fighting between rival spectators behind the Rangers' goal.

1934 Leicester City fans vandalised a train returning from a match in Birmingham.

1935 Police lead a baton charge against stone-throwing fans during a match between Linfield and Belfast Celtic.

1936 During a match at Wolverhampton Wanderers spectators attacked visiting Chelsea players. Later the crowd protested outside officials' entrance over the sale of top players.

1949 Millwall v Exeter City. Referee and linesmen attacked with blows and projectiles from the crowd.

1951 At the Queens Park Rangers ground missiles were thrown at the Sheffield Wednesday goalkeeper.

1954 Several hundred spectators came onto the field during a match between Everton Reserves and Bolton Wanderers Reserves. Fireworks were thrown and a linesman was kicked.

1955-56 Liverpool and Everton fans involved in several train-wrecking exploits.

1946-1960 An average of 13 incidents of disorderly behaviour by spectators per season reported to the FA.

1961-1968 An average of 25 such incidents per season reported.

June 10, 1985

Heysel Stadium in Brussels

opening of the European Cup Final between Britain's Liverpool and Italy's Juventus of Turin

45 minutes before kickoff, the mostly young Liverpool fans began to taunt the Juventus followers. Emboldened by alcohol, many backed up their insults by hurling rocks and bottles over the wire fence that separated them from the Italians. Suddenly the screaming British crowd exploded across the standing-room terraces. They swarmed into the adjoining section, heaving rocks and bottles. The human tide crushed and maimed people. Television cameras provided watching millions with close-up pictures of fans caught beneath a human pile; of hands held out ; of the injured and dying.

most of above above material from

http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvexec.html

[Mendor]

The Dutch police have said to Tartan Army members without a ticket for Wednesday's game in Amsterdam: Come on over anyway. The more the merrier. "There has always been a very good atmosphere between the Dutch fans and the Scottish fans, and it always ends up as a big party" - Dutch policewoman shown on Reporting Scotland tonight.

The Tartan Army are obviously liked. (Despite some people booing the Dutch national anthem at Hampden on Saturday. One of my friends went to that game, and said he was disgusted, especially seeing as no-one booed our anthem.)

p.s. re above post: again, the distinction between England and Britain needs to be made. Liverpool is an English team, not a British one.

Ironic, really, 'cos we Scots usually get annoyed when foreigners say England and mean Britain, rather than the other way round :D

[Jon_in_london]

What I just cant figure out is why football is referred to as 'the beautifull game' I havent seen anything beautifull about it ever.

I have seen:
1-Hooliganism and violence both on and off the pitch perpetrated by both players, fans and police.
2-Players shouting and arguing and sometimes physically interfering with the match officials
3-Players who are disgustingly overpaid and undertalented typically behaving like the bunch of spoilt uneducated puerile tosspots they are.
4-Most games these days seem to be lost or won by who can do the most convincing and well placed overly-theatrical dive in the penalty area.
5-International relations being soured between countries because of all of the above eg. England-Turkey and now Wales-Russia.

Beautifull as a sh-t sandwich and a kick in the bollocks.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
What I just cant figure out is why football is referred to as 'the beautifull game' I havent seen anything beautifull about it ever.

I have seen:
1-Hooliganism and violence both on and off the pitch perpetrated by both players, fans and police.
2-Players shouting and arguing and sometimes physically interfering with the match officials
3-Players who are disgustingly overpaid and undertalented typically behaving like the bunch of spoilt uneducated puerile tosspots they are.
4-Most games these days seem to be lost or won by who can do the most convincing and well placed overly-theatrical dive in the penalty area.
5-International relations being soured between countries because of all of the above eg. England-Turkey and now Wales-Russia.

Beautifull as a sh-t sandwich and a kick in the bollocks.

I guess your idea of a beautiful game is golf ? :D
[list=1]
That's really bad, but it is to be expected with such popularity. The fact that criminals often channel their aggressiveness in football stadiums says nothing about the sport itself
This happens in all games where there is physical contact. Heck, it also happens in volleyball from time to time!
I agree fully with you on the 'overpriced' stuff, but it is the laws of the market that have brought us here. The current economic crisis in European football will most likely sort this out. The character of players has nothing to do with it, there are adamants among them but you choose to focus on the bad guys.
I think this is an unfair thing to say. Though we have all witnessed a lot of injustices, we have to admit that the statistics favor the actual best teams.
Like (1), to be expected with such popularity
[/list=1]


You realize of course that if it weren't for football, all these things would happen with another sport. The fact that all thses good and bad things happen in football, means that it is indeed the sport capable of eliciting the most intense emotions.

"Football" is just a set of rules. We can't blame it for the faults of our society.