What Evolutionary Benefit Would NDE's Confer?

[Malerin]

The Lancet had a very good multi-year study on NDE's. As is true in most core NDE's, the people who experienced them had very little fear of death afterwards (their death rates also tended to be higher).

How does this make sense on an evolutionary model? If I were desiging a species, I would want it to be terrified of death and to fight TO the death. The last thing I would want is for that species to experience a rapturous calm when it could be fighting for its life. I certainly wouldn't want it communicating to other members (should it survive) that death is nothing to be afraid of.

Evolution is about passing on your genes and ensuring the survival of your offsrping. A cavalier attitude towards death seems to defeat this end.

[Arkayik]

Sorry for stating the obvious, but there need not be a benefit/detriment per se.

An NDE could simply be a side-effect of the brain almost-demise.

On the flip side, there might be a kin-selection vector if the post-NDE-being is willing to sacrifice hirself for another...

Cheers,

Ark

[Malerin]

Sorry for stating the obvious, but there need not be a benefit/detriment per se.

An NDE could simply be a side-effect of the brain almost-demise.

On the flip side, there might be a kin-selection vector if the post-NDE-being is willing to sacrifice hirself for another...

Cheers,

Ark

Good point on the side-effect, but shouldn't sacrificing oneself for one's offpsring already be a deeply ingrained instinct? I've never experienced an NDE, but I still would sacrifice myself to keep my son alive. I imagine the vast majority of parents feel the same way.

As a side-effect, why is it that only roughly 12% of people in a near-death situation experience NDE's? Shouldn't the side-effect be universal? And why would the experiences have remarkable similarities across cultures (OBE, seeing dead relatives, spiritual element, etc.).

In fact, if I knew nothing about NDE's at all, I would predict that the predominant emotion people would experience near death would be terror.

[Niobe]

And why would the experiences have remarkable similarities across cultures (OBE, seeing dead relatives, spiritual element, etc.).
We're a social species, obviously your loved ones are first and foremost in your mind when you know you're going to pass. Spiritual phenomena only ever seem to take place when it happens to spiritual / religious people.
To give an example, I sometimes hallucinate during my sleep and where others would see demons or aliens, I as a non-religious person see intruders, the most common cultural imprint of "danger" for a woman.

Then you have to consider the age where most NDE's take place. My father in law had the out of body experience during his cardiac bypass, when he was already a grandfather 7 times over. At that point, there's no natural selecting taking place regarding his NDE.

As for your point about fighting for your life, and NDE isn't taking place when you're in the midst fighting that lion, it's taking place when you've almost exsanguinated from the perforation of your carotid artery. I have no issues with a "dead calm" in a moment of great pain.

[Malerin]

We're a social species, obviously your loved ones are first and foremost in your mind when you know you're going to pass. Spiritual phenomena only ever seem to take place when it happens to spiritual / religious people.
To give an example, I sometimes hallucinate during my sleep and where others would see demons or aliens, I as a non-religious person see intruders, the most common cultural imprint of "danger" for a woman.

Then you have to consider the age where most NDE's take place. My father in law had the out of body experience during his cardiac bypass, when he was already a grandfather 7 times over. At that point, there's no natural selecting taking place regarding his NDE.

As for your point about fighting for your life, and NDE isn't taking place when you're in the midst fighting that lion, it's taking place when you've almost exsanguinated from the perforation of your carotid artery. I have no issues with a "dead calm" in a moment of great pain.

NDE's take place regardless of belief systems or age. Children have them, agnostics, atheists, Christians, etc.

Once again, if you knew nothing about NDE's, and I asked you: "How do you think people would feel as they're dying?" I'm betting your response would be "Scared out of their mind".

Edit: An NDE can take place when a person simply THINKS their life is in danger. They don't all happen in the OR.

[Jonquill]

How often would you be near death but pull through if it wasn't for medical intervention?

Primative people couldn't experience it all that often?

[Pixel42]

NDE's take place regardless of belief systems or age. Children have them, agnostics, atheists, Christians, etc.
Which strongly suggests that they are due to physical processes in the brain as it dies.

Once again, if you knew nothing about NDE's, and I asked you: "How do you think people would feel as they're dying?" I'm betting your response would be "Scared out of their mind".
But as I do know something about the processes that take place in the brain as it dies, that would not be my response.

Edit: An NDE can take place when a person simply THINKS their life is in danger. They don't all happen in the OR.
This is news to me. Link?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sorry for stating the obvious, but there need not be a benefit/detriment per se.

An NDE could simply be a side-effect of the brain almost-demise.

On the flip side, there might be a kin-selection vector if the post-NDE-being is willing to sacrifice hirself for another...

Cheers,

ArkYour first suggestion is highly likely given the selection pressures for brain development. In other words, it may just be the result of an efficient O2 dependent brain running on no O2. But there is also a benefit to shut brain function off to prevent free radicals from forming. Free radicals are responsible for the brain damage that occurs when you go without O2 for more than a few minutes. The result of shutting down the brain could cause the 'tunnel' view.

I still think the side effect of a fragile brain however, is the most likely reason people have experienced them.

[sphenisc]

The evolutionary benefit of NDEs is that they're not DEs.

[Ashles]

NDE's take place regardless of belief systems or age. Children have them, agnostics, atheists, Christians, etc.

Once again, if you knew nothing about NDE's, and I asked you: "How do you think people would feel as they're dying?" I'm betting your response would be "Scared out of their mind".
The point is that this is not an emotional reaction but a chemical/neurological reaction - hence the consistency across belief systems and cultures.
We're not talking about situations where somebody is just in fear of their life, but when they are actually clinically close to death for physical reasons.

Edit: An NDE can take place when a person simply THINKS their life is in danger. They don't all happen in the OR.
As Pixel42 asks - do you have more information on this? I have not encountered this and I did my dissertation for the finals of my Experimental Psychology degree on NDEs (admittedly over 10 years ago).

[Ashles]

How does this make sense on an evolutionary model? If I were desiging a species,
Remember evolution is not directed. It's not the same as if someone were designing a species.
If we were designing a species it wouldn't have many of the flaws humans have.

Many great processes in the human body also have undesirable side effects. Cancer, for example, is part of a necessary process gone very wrong.

So not having an evolutionary benefit doesn't preclude a negative/zero-benefit trait from being present.

[Aepervius]

Furthermore some trait cannot be selected through evolution. You can only select trait if it helps you or the specy before reproduction. After reproductive age, there is not much to select against or for.

[Cainkane1]

I'd like to toss this into the mix. Doctors say that most people who report NDE'S weren't actually near death. They were either the victims of a concussion or undergoing an operation.

[Cainkane1]

The Lancet had a very good multi-year study on NDE's. As is true in most core NDE's, the people who experienced them had very little fear of death afterwards (their death rates also tended to be higher).

How does this make sense on an evolutionary model? If I were desiging a species, I would want it to be terrified of death and to fight TO the death. The last thing I would want is for that species to experience a rapturous calm when it could be fighting for its life. I certainly wouldn't want it communicating to other members (should it survive) that death is nothing to be afraid of.

Evolution is about passing on your genes and ensuring the survival of your offsrping. A cavalier attitude towards death seems to defeat this end.

Actually since we are all going to die someday this might be a positive thing.

[Segnosaur]

The Lancet had a very good multi-year study on NDE's. As is true in most core NDE's, the people who experienced them had very little fear of death afterwards
...
Evolution is about passing on your genes and ensuring the survival of your offsrping. A cavalier attitude towards death seems to defeat this end.

I can think of 2 possibilities myself...

- Even though people may be less risk-adverse (and may even have a higher death rate) following a NDE, that doesn't necessarily translate to having fewer offspring. The brave individual may be be considered a more desirable mate. (Kind of a variation on the theme that "Women love the bad guys".) They may die sooner, but before they do they'll pass on their genes more often and to the more desirable mates.

- Its also possible that the effects of NDEs are simply not that significant in effecting evolutionary outcome. Kind of like how some recessive alleles exist when they could lead to death in offspring; so few individuals actually experience NDEs and eventually die because they take more risks that there's no real evolutionary pressure to remove the trait.