All out of beliefs, and generally miserable...

[Moochie]

The heading pretty much says it all. I have on occasion referred to myself as misanthropic, but that doesn't begin to describe where I am in my thinking. It's as if I'm caught between believing everything, and believing nothing. It's not good. It's not necessarily bad, either.

Dark night of the soul? Would be if I believed in a soul.

Where are you?


M.

[Horatius]

I believe my kitten Nova loves me. And not just because I feed him.


But Alberta T. Kat just barely tolerates me. So I suppose that balances out the woo.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/9490478062928c7e9.jpg



Other than that, I believe I'll go out and have a beer....

[ExMinister]

What do you mean by everything? What do you mean by nothing?

I'm guessing the truth lies somewhere in between those two extremes, but I definitely haven't got it all figured out. I'm probably going through a bit of dark time, too, but my thought lately is this:

Wouldn't it be great if every deliberately insincere, phony, fraudulent, and/or otherwise deliberately deceitful literary work, personal testimony (woo related), scientific paper, television program, or internet site was instantly removed from the world? Wouldn't it be interesting to see what we would have left? What books would remain? How would religion be changed? Homeopathy and aura reading would disappear in an instant. 98% of the New Age section in the bookstores would be emptied, including 44 books by Sylvia Browne.

It sure would make it easier if we didn't have to waste so much time just trying to sort the fact from fiction.

Just a thought. :)

[Kittyclaws]

Wouldn't it be great if every deliberately insincere, phony, fraudulent, and/or otherwise deliberately deceitful literary work, personal testimony (woo related), scientific paper, television program, or internet site was instantly removed from the world? Wouldn't it be interesting to see what we would have left? What books would remain? How would religion be changed? Homeopathy and aura reading would disappear in an instant. 98% of the New Age section in the bookstores would be emptied, including 44 books by Sylvia Browne.

It sure would make it easier if we didn't have to waste so much time just trying to sort the fact from fiction.

Just a thought. :)

True dat.

I'm glad you specified "deliberately deceitful" literary works. I'd hate to have my favorite sci-fi go missing.

Miserable Moochie- Yes, there is a time of realizing that all we have, all we are is right here and now, and that can be demoralizing. I ask myself "what have you done with your life?" and I mumble stupid stuff like procreated, supported myself and spawn, tried to learn more about the universe by reading and listening, and it doesn't seem like enough. Maybe spawn will go on to discover Great Truths but probably not.

I've been toying with the idea of learning to be a literacy tutor. Maybe if I help people learn to enjoy reading, they'll stumble upon thought-provoking works (Sagan, Shermer, etc.) and I can indirectly further the ideas of reason- and science-based thinking.

At the very least, I fix and install people's phone service so I know I accomplish something tangible at least 5 days a week. ;)

[blobru]

The heading pretty much says it all. I have on occasion referred to myself as misanthropic, but that doesn't begin to describe where I am in my thinking. It's as if I'm caught between believing everything, and believing nothing. It's not good. It's not necessarily bad, either.

Dark night of the soul? Would be if I believed in a soul.

Where are you?


M.

I honestly don't know what I'm going to believe in day to day, Mooch. (If it ever comes around to Sylvia Browne, please shoot me.)

As I've said before, that is one handsome pussy cat! That thought hasn't changed, must be a core belief. ;)

As you say, non-belief isn't necessarily bad or good. Even if it turns into the belief that nothing is worthwhile, it's not necessarily bad. Sometimes a "dark night of the 'soul'" is more like a yardsale of the mind, clearing out old ideas and feelings to make room for something else. At least in my experience with dnots's.

I hope that doesn't sound too glib. If the dark night gets too dark, you have to get help sometimes too (in my experience).

How's that for useless advice, eh? :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

I get caught up in the same sort of stuff although not as often anymore. I'd have conversations with myself:

"What's the point?"
"The most sense comes from believing there is no point."
"Okay, should that bother me?"
"Nope, there's no point to being bothered by it."
"Cool."
"What about dying?"
"This is it, nothing after, you just blink out."
"Whooaa..that idea is almost more than I can handle."
"How do you feel about singing praises into eternity to some goombah who allowed a whole lot of crap to happen in his name and never even said sorry?"
"Yeah, I don't believe in the goombah so I guess I have to go with the quick fade. Still, I kinda wish I believed in the goombah, wouldn't be so scary that way."
"Oh well, you can't make yourself believe in something you don't believe in."

[Moochie]

Other than that, I believe I'll go out and have a beer....


That's as good a suggestion as I've ever heard.

Nice kitties, too. :)


M.

[Moochie]

What do you mean by everything? What do you mean by nothing?

I'm guessing the truth lies somewhere in between those two extremes, but I definitely haven't got it all figured out. I'm probably going through a bit of dark time, too, but my thought lately is this:

Wouldn't it be great if every deliberately insincere, phony, fraudulent, and/or otherwise deliberately deceitful literary work, personal testimony (woo related), scientific paper, television program, or internet site was instantly removed from the world? Wouldn't it be interesting to see what we would have left? What books would remain? How would religion be changed? Homeopathy and aura reading would disappear in an instant. 98% of the New Age section in the bookstores would be emptied, including 44 books by Sylvia Browne.

It sure would make it easier if we didn't have to waste so much time just trying to sort the fact from fiction.

Just a thought. :)


Appreciated, ExMinister. Commiserations.

For the record, I had quite a library left once I expunged all the BS. I kept a copy of the bible (that had been given to me) for reference, and various other comparative religion texts, some of which do provide some solace at times.


M.

[Moochie]

True dat.

I'm glad you specified "deliberately deceitful" literary works. I'd hate to have my favorite sci-fi go missing.

Miserable Moochie- Yes, there is a time of realizing that all we have, all we are is right here and now, and that can be demoralizing. I ask myself "what have you done with your life?" and I mumble stupid stuff like procreated, supported myself and spawn, tried to learn more about the universe by reading and listening, and it doesn't seem like enough. Maybe spawn will go on to discover Great Truths but probably not.

I've been toying with the idea of learning to be a literacy tutor. Maybe if I help people learn to enjoy reading, they'll stumble upon thought-provoking works (Sagan, Shermer, etc.) and I can indirectly further the ideas of reason- and science-based thinking.

At the very least, I fix and install people's phone service so I know I accomplish something tangible at least 5 days a week. ;)

Sounds like a life, Kittyclaws. :)

And the literacy tutoring sounds like a good idea.


M.

[Alex Libman]

I believe my kitten Nova loves me. And not just because I feed him.

Proof? I say Kitten Nova would eat you if you were small enough... :eek:

[Moochie]

I honestly don't know what I'm going to believe in day to day, Mooch. (If it ever comes around to Sylvia Browne, please shoot me.)

As I've said before, that is one handsome pussy cat! That thought hasn't changed, must be a core belief. ;)

As you say, non-belief isn't necessarily bad or good. Even if it turns into the belief that nothing is worthwhile, it's not necessarily bad. Sometimes a "dark night of the 'soul'" is more like a yardsale of the mind, clearing out old ideas and feelings to make room for something else. At least in my experience with dnots's.

I hope that doesn't sound too glib. If the dark night gets too dark, you have to get help sometimes too (in my experience).

How's that for useless advice, eh? :rolleyes:


Thanks for the compliment -- kitty knows he's handsome, too. I could do worse than try and emulate his apparent equanimity and serenity.

Thanks for your thoughts.


M.

[Moochie]

I get caught up in the same sort of stuff although not as often anymore. I'd have conversations with myself:

"What's the point?"
"The most sense comes from believing there is no point."
"Okay, should that bother me?"
"Nope, there's no point to being bothered by it."
"Cool."
"What about dying?"
"This is it, nothing after, you just blink out."
"Whooaa..that idea is almost more than I can handle."
"How do you feel about singing praises into eternity to some goombah who allowed a whole lot of crap to happen in his name and never even said sorry?"
"Yeah, I don't believe in the goombah so I guess I have to go with the quick fade. Still, I kinda wish I believed in the goombah, wouldn't be so scary that way."
"Oh well, you can't make yourself believe in something you don't believe in."

The point for me is, I never gave up believing in the Great Goombah because I never actually believed to begin with, despite the efforts of a gaggle of nuns and a bunch of priests over the course of eight or 9 years. These people were really extremely poor ambassadors for their religion. They engendered neither faith nor hope in this perplexed and unhappy individual.


M.

[kittynh]

hmmm..... how about you don't have to trust anything, just believe in yourself and accept that life and nothing in it is perfect?

Look at what is true, at this moment?

I have friends that divorce. They focus on the end and the betrayal, rather than the years of happiness and good times. The end colors and rewrites the entire relationship.

believing in something is rather like expecting something to be perfect enough to believe in. Many religions have the everything is in constant change take on life.

I was reading about an Asian culture where they put benches by a river facing downstream. In the US, we would usually put the bench facing upstream. We want to see what's coming. We don't want any surprises. Yet a popular thing in this culture for a party is to launch little boats with treats and drinks and send them downstream where the guests are surprised by what passes by and make a grab for it. This culture likes to look to the past, and what they can learn from it, while accepting the surprises of the future as they come.

Which means I've been reading way too much.

[Senex]

Whenever I feel down thinking about things I haven't accomplished or things I should have done but didn't, I take solace in the knowledge that the universe in expanding and not only our sun but all suns will someday expire and go dark and all life will cease and all achievement (especially the ones of those overachievers I may temporarily be jealous of) will have been fleeting.

In the end in it really won't matter so enjoy the beer ;)

[Horatius]

Proof? I say Kitten Nova would eat you if you were small enough... :eek:



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/2386301132_4dbe09e7f2.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/2386301132_4dbe09e7f2.jpg)



Can't you feel the love? ;)



Not that he wouldn't eat me, if he had the chance, but he'd feel bad about it while he did it....

[Kittyclaws]

Not that he wouldn't eat me, if he had the chance, but he'd feel bad about it while he did it....

That would depend on how it had been from his last feeding to your demise. I have the sneaking suspicion that if I die at home alone, my cats will snack opportunistically until we're discovered. :yikes::catface:


I wanted to believe. Believing seemed to make people happy. But as young as age 12, I realized all the local church was selling was fear. So I went pagan for several years, and have the tats to show for it, but again I just couldn't make myself truly believe. I thought there was something wrong with me, that I couldn't just believe. I thought if I walked the talk, aka "fake it 'til you make it," I would come to believe. Yeah, right.

I still wonder if there's some aspect missing in me such that I can't quite swallow all the spiritual, new age, mystical, religious ideas out there. I guess science and learning and skepticism are my next attempt at understanding the world. At least those things are based in reality; provable concepts rather than received wisdom.

[ExMinister]

Appreciated, ExMinister. Commiserations.

For the record, I had quite a library left once I expunged all the BS. I kept a copy of the bible (that had been given to me) for reference, and various other comparative religion texts, some of which do provide some solace at times.


M.


True for my library too, though I plan to keep even some of the BS books because I want my kids to be able to read and compare it all for themselves when they get older.

For me, when I consider believing nothing (that is, to believe there is no God, no purpose or meaning to life beyond survival, etc.), I still tend to get discouraged and depressed. I wish that weren't the case because I see so much value in adopting a completely skeptical/evidence-based viewpoint. But still I see the inequality of suffering in the world, and the suffering in general, in the people I care about, not to mention my own, going back through childhood, and in the context of no real meaning or purpose to life, it bothers me. On the other hand, I find the world view of individuals like Carl Sagain inspiring. And when people like Sam Harris argue on behalf of rationalism and for the damage done in the world by fanatical religious views and magical thinking in general, I believe they are absolutely right. Then again, I have had certain "woo" experiences that I still find hard to explain away (though I continue to diligently try). I am drawn to the teachings attributed to Jesus Christ, but put off by so much else in Christianity, and Christianity does not adequately explain human suffering for me, among other things. My previous, probably simplistic, ideas of reincarnation/karma, that there is a God and we have more than one lifetime in many universes to practice becoming more loving people and overcome challenges helps to explain human suffering/inequality and still appeals to me. But outside subjective experience, there is just no evidence to any of it, and I no longer believe a word anyone claiming to be a psychic or medium says. I am drawn toward rational thinking, and to listen to people argue for their favorite religious/spiritual beliefs strikes me as silly now - people with no proof arguing against other people with equally no proof! So it's something I go around in circles with these days. It's been a dark time and I don't know where I will wind up in the end, but I doubt there will ever be "evidence" to support belief and it is something one will either choose, knowing there is no real evidence, or just choose not to trouble with. I envy people who say they just don't give it much thought or worry about it; perhaps that's the healthiest way to be!

[AliasN]

I don't have much of a philosophy myself, but if I did I think it might be something like the following snippet from the Harold Ramis remake of "Bedazzled":

Alison: I loved your last book, Always Toujours.
Elliot: I'm just trying to make a simple point really: see, every time I reread Camus and Sartre I kept thinking to myself, "Does the existential dilemma have to be so damn bleak? Yes, we're alone in the universe. Yes, life is meaningless, death is inevitable. But is that necessarily so depressing?"

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind at any time. :)

[borealys]

To quote, or perhaps paraphrase, Terry Pratchett's Small Gods:

Here And Now, You Are Alive.

I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of nonexistence. The thought of ceasing to exist, wholly and completely, doesn't so much scare or depress me as boggle my mind. Sometimes I make an effort to think about it, but I usually end up concluding that it doesn't matter. Maybe it'll turn out that I'm wrong and there's something beyond this world and this life. I doubt it, though. The one thing I know, with as much certainty as it's possible to know anything, is that here and now, I do exist. So, I make a point of enjoying it, of exploring any places and knowledge that I can, and helping people whenever possible.

There's a very real spiritual-like feeling I get when I look out at the night sky and think about everything that might be out there, about all of the things we don't yet know and haven't yet found. There's a sorrow that comes with that, too, that I won't live to see more than a tiny fraction of those mysteries uncovered. But I can think and I can imagine, and then I can go cuddle my cat and read a good book and drink a beer.

The benefits of being alive. :)

[borealys]

I don't have much of a philosophy myself, but if I did I think it might be something like the following snippet from the Harold Ramis remake of "Bedazzled":

Alison: I loved your last book, Always Toujours.
Elliot: I'm just trying to make a simple point really: see, every time I reread Camus and Sartre I kept thinking to myself, "Does the existential dilemma have to be so damn bleak? Yes, we're alone in the universe. Yes, life is meaningless, death is inevitable. But is that necessarily so depressing?"

Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind at any time. :)

Love it. And fully agree.

[Ron_Tomkins]

All out of beliefs, and generally miserable...

No.

[Moochie]

True for my library too, though I plan to keep even some of the BS books because I want my kids to be able to read and compare it all for themselves when they get older.

For me, when I consider believing nothing (that is, to believe there is no God, no purpose or meaning to life beyond survival, etc.), I still tend to get discouraged and depressed. I wish that weren't the case because I see so much value in adopting a completely skeptical/evidence-based viewpoint. But still I see the inequality of suffering in the world, and the suffering in general, in the people I care about, not to mention my own, going back through childhood, and in the context of no real meaning or purpose to life, it bothers me. On the other hand, I find the world view of individuals like Carl Sagain inspiring. And when people like Sam Harris argue on behalf of rationalism and for the damage done in the world by fanatical religious views and magical thinking in general, I believe they are absolutely right. Then again, I have had certain "woo" experiences that I still find hard to explain away (though I continue to diligently try). I am drawn to the teachings attributed to Jesus Christ, but put off by so much else in Christianity, and Christianity does not adequately explain human suffering for me, among other things. My previous, probably simplistic, ideas of reincarnation/karma, that there is a God and we have more than one lifetime in many universes to practice becoming more loving people and overcome challenges helps to explain human suffering/inequality and still appeals to me. But outside subjective experience, there is just no evidence to any of it, and I no longer believe a word anyone claiming to be a psychic or medium says. I am drawn toward rational thinking, and to listen to people argue for their favorite religious/spiritual beliefs strikes me as silly now - people with no proof arguing against other people with equally no proof! So it's something I go around in circles with these days. It's been a dark time and I don't know where I will wind up in the end, but I doubt there will ever be "evidence" to support belief and it is something one will either choose, knowing there is no real evidence, or just choose not to trouble with. I envy people who say they just don't give it much thought or worry about it; perhaps that's the healthiest way to be!


I think most people get by through the generous use of distractions -- they're just too busy to question their beliefs, or anything else for that matter. Maybe that's my problem -- I have too much time on my hands.


M.

[Moochie]

No.

Rage, rage ...


:)

[Ivor the Engineer]

What do you mean by everything? What do you mean by nothing?

I'm guessing the truth lies somewhere in between those two extremes, but I definitely haven't got it all figured out. I'm probably going through a bit of dark time, too, but my thought lately is this:

Wouldn't it be great if every deliberately insincere, phony, fraudulent, and/or otherwise deliberately deceitful literary work, personal testimony (woo related), scientific paper, television program, or internet site was instantly removed from the world? Wouldn't it be interesting to see what we would have left? What books would remain? How would religion be changed? Homeopathy and aura reading would disappear in an instant. 98% of the New Age section in the bookstores would be emptied, including 44 books by Sylvia Browne.

It sure would make it easier if we didn't have to waste so much time just trying to sort the fact from fiction.

Just a thought. :)

I'm not so sure many of the authors are those things, which is one of the reasons I don't trust many people.

[godless dave]

I don't understand what beliefs have to do with being happy, but maybe that's because I never had any.