To Believers in Mediums errr Media(?)

[Ed]

In a very matter of fact way, with examples, if possible, might you explain how you came by your beliefs? I have a theory that people often form their beliefs after the demise of a loved one. I know, for example, that RC started that way.

I don't want to argue about anything. In fact there is nothing to argue about. What happened, happened.

[showme2]

Ed
That's a very rational and sensible post, which may explain why you received ZILCH response !

You see, "what happened" DIDN'T happen, and couldn't possibly have happened .... unless, unlike 99% of our other experiences in life which teach us anything, it happened under the ubiquitous "controlled conditions" so beloved of our sceptic friends.

I have explained how I came by my own beliefs. That explanation is on several threads relating to Colin Fry.

They convinced me, but will not convince anyone else because it was outside their experience.

But then, I don't give a damn if nobody else is convinced ....

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Ed
I have a theory that people often form their beliefs after the demise of a loved one. I know, for example, that RC started that way.


And let's face it under those circumstances most people would want, more than anything, the opportunity to communicate with them.

My own view is that what really seperates the believers from the sceptics is the strangth of desire to believe. Many of the 'believers' who post on these board seem otherwise fairly intelligent. But in the face of nothing but pretty dodgy anecdotal 'evidence' you really have to want to believe in order to put aside the alternative non parnormal explanations.

[Prester John]

My father passed away recently. During his (incurable) illness there was a desire in some parts of the family to try various "alternative" remedies. Its very hard to argue against what people see as an only hope. Fortunatly my father was an old skeptic as well so refused to try anything except what was prescibed. This "alternative" stuff is damned expensive.

After he passed away there is a strong want to believe that he is not truly dead. It doesn't feel as if he really has gone. I have heard him in my dreams. It would be very easy to start believing in an after life, to go to a medium so i could "talk" to him again. It feels cold just to say he is but ashes now. How can you tell your sisters that ? It is a very confusing time, people are vulnerable.

So i think your theory may be correct Ed!

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by Prester John
My father passed away recently. During his (incurable) illness there was a desire in some parts of the family to try various "alternative" remedies. Its very hard to argue against what people see as an only hope. Fortunatly my father was an old skeptic as well so refused to try anything except what was prescibed. This "alternative" stuff is damned expensive.

After he passed away there is a strong want to believe that he is not truly dead. It doesn't feel as if he really has gone. I have heard him in my dreams. It would be very easy to start believing in an after life, to go to a medium so i could "talk" to him again. It feels cold just to say he is but ashes now. How can you tell your sisters that ? It is a very confusing time, people are vulnerable.

So i think your theory may be correct Ed!

A very very dear friend of mine died from cancer at the age of 52. I really loved this guy. He was a believer in all things spiritual, and he and I often had great debates about the paranormal.

Shortly after his death I 'met' him in dream. It semed very real and I have to say it made me feel so very much better about his passing. But I realise now that it was just a dream even though I wish I could believe that it wasn't.

Neverthless, these things have a very powerful emotional impact.

[showme2]

Prester John

This is, I realise, a sensitive subject, and I shall try to treat it accordingly.

At best, you do not KNOW that your Father is "just ashes". You do not KNOW that the individual persona does not survive and continue elsewhere.
You do not KNOW that we are no more than the body we operate in while we are on this earth.

You do not KNOW any of this and cannot prove it.

Equally, I do not KNOW and cannot prove the reverse either.

We all reach personal conclusions about these matters, based on the only evidence available to us, which I concede falls short of absolute proof and, in the nature of things, will probably continue to do so.

But, since you do not KNOW, you have no business seeking to remove from your sisters whatever comfort they gain from any belief of their choosing - whether they or I can prove it valid or not. You have no basis on which to do so, and it would therefore be both arrogant and unkind.

[RonSceptic]

Originally posted by showme2
But, since you do not KNOW, you have no business seeking to remove from your sisters whatever comfort they gain from any belief of their choosing - whether they or I can prove it valid or not. You have no basis on which to do so, and it would therefore be both arrogant and unkind.

This is a difficult issue. I know where you are coming from, and I am all in favour of helping to mitigate the grief that follows a death in the family.

But on a personal note, given that I have never seen any evidence that any medium is anything other than a cold/hot reading fraud, I would protect my relatives from these con men who, at the end of the day, are just in it for the money.

So I would say that to protect vulnerable people at such a time is an example of what is know as 'tough love'.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by showme2
But, since you do not KNOW, you have no business seeking to remove from your sisters whatever comfort they gain from any belief of their choosing - whether they or I can prove it valid or not. You have no basis on which to do so, and it would therefore be both arrogant and unkind.

You do appreciate that this logic applies equally to the promotion of a believers point of view?

Logically, based on the above, you must believe it is wrong for people to claim that there is existence after death (whether they be mediums, christians, hindus or whatever) as this risks removing any comfort gained from people who believe that there is nothing after death. Surely to do otherwise would be "arrogant and unkind" and they would have no business seeking to remove that belief?

Except of course some of them have very big businesses built on exploiting vulnerable people.

[Prester John]

Showme2 i did not engage my Sisters in debate about the subject as it would have be insensitive and innapropriate.

However does this lead us to crux of the issue? People want to believe in life after death whatever the evidence to the contrary(or should that be lack of evidence?).
People who point out that it is extremely unlikely are seen as heartless and unfeeling. A medium who offers comfort is seen as a friend. However is it not the medium who is the fraud? To take money and offer lies to someone in emotional distress surely is about as low as you can get. Yet it is not percieved as such by the vast majoritory of the poulation. Are they white lies?

My position is of course as a sceptic. I do not believe in life after death, i have seen no evidence for it, however much i would like it to be true.

[Ed]

Does it not come down to money? After all, we can not KNOW, really. As irretating as an unsupported belief system may be it is really up to the individual. The problem arises when people eith advance their career or make money on grief. That is where the real demand for proof comes in.

[showme2]

Prester John

I note what you say, and I do not pretend that it is anything other than an extremely difficult issue to address.

I think that, on balance, the right time to intervene is when your sisters look as if they are being financially exploited.

Even then, they might well turn on the messenger.

[Starrman]

From personal experience, I can tell you that it can be emotionally harmful for someone to push their beliefs of an afterlife onto someone who has gone through the emotional wringer to accept the loss of a loved one.

I don't think the acceptance is ever permanent, but if someone keeps telling you they are talking to the person lost on a ouija board, or spending family money to get a reading with JE, I think it is justified to confront their beliefs with logic.

[showme2]

Starrman

""" From personal experience, I can tell you that it can be emotionally harmful for someone to push their beliefs of an afterlife onto someone who has gone through the emotional wringer to accept the loss of a loved one. """

Too damned right ! It is an absolutely crass thing to do, and invites a smack in the mouth.

But what we are talking about here is the reverse. And presumably, if the Sisters are spending any money, it is their own.

I think our friend is more concerned that they are being deceived or are deceiving themselves, rather than worrying about "family money"

Intervening in someone else's cherished beliefs in such a situation is almost as dangerous as trying to sell them beliefs they don't hold.
It might not get you a smack in the mouth, but it might provoke an unpleasant family rift at the very time you don't want one.

Very, very difficult. No easy answer.