Has Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia, set the precident for Georgia?

[Thunder]

Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo, Croatia, have all declared independance and their desire to succeed. The EU and the USA supported all those demands.

Now, South Ossetia and Abkhazia want to succeed. Isnt it hypocracy for us to now say "no..you must stay part of a nation you dont want to be part of"???

[moon1969]

Againg why are russian troops in the town of Gori? Gori is in Georgia and has nothing to do with South Ossetia or Abkhazia. And what is Sulim Yamadayev doing in Georgia?

[Darth Rotor]

Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo, Croatia, have all declared independance and their desire to succeed. The EU and the USA supported all those demands.
And got away with it in part due to the Serbian political leadership not being very clever at all. One cannot always count on a dim witted foe.
Now, South Ossetia and Abkhazia want to succeed. Isnt it hypocracy for us to now say "no..you must stay part of a nation you dont want to be part of"???
That is a good question. Who is us, parky, in this conversation? :confused:

The Russians can indeed point to the break up of Yugoslavia process and point out that their actions are similar to the UN and NATO actions in Bosnia, in which they took part.

DR

[WildCat]

Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo, Croatia, have all declared independance and their desire to succeed. The EU and the USA supported all those demands.

Now, South Ossetia and Abkhazia want to succeed. Isnt it hypocracy for us to now say "no..you must stay part of a nation you dont want to be part of"???
The word you're looking for is "secede".

And also, it's spelled "precedent".

/grammar police

Oh, how public education has failed in the US!

[geni]

Againg why are russian troops in the town of Gori? Gori is in Georgia and has nothing to do with South Ossetia or Abkhazia.

It's within artillery range of south ossetia and with the Georgian forces gone there was a risk that the south ossetians will go and aquire stuff.

[Darth Rotor]

It's within artillery range of south ossetia and with the Georgian forces gone there was a risk that the south ossetians will go and aquire stuff.

Ah, back to the good old days, when loot was part and parcel to war . . .

Let's see, the Georgian locals are appealing to their occupiers, since their troops plied swift knees, to

Deliver us, O Vladimir, from the fury of the Ossetians . . .

A furore Ossetinorum libera nos Vladimir

DR

[BeAChooser]

Ah, back to the good old days, when loot was part and parcel to war . . .

It still is ...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1563317.ece

:D

[Nogbad]

The word you're looking for is "secede".

And also, it's spelled "precedent".

/grammar police

Oh, how public education has failed in the US!

Be fair

I am sure they wanted to succeed too :)

Self determination is a perfectly reasonable thing and the Ossetians and Georgians have history. It was Uncle Joe (a Georgian) that drew many of the Soviet boundaries. Georgian territorial integrity might best be defined as the bits occupied by Georgians not artificial borders. The Serbian claim to Kosovo (and their distaste for the Albanians who were on the Nazi side in WW2) is a lot more understandable historically than Georgian claims to South Ossetia.

[BeAChooser]

It was Uncle Joe (a Georgian) that drew many of the Soviet boundaries. Georgian territorial integrity might best be defined as the bits occupied by Georgians not artificial borders. The Serbian claim to Kosovo (and their distaste for the Albanians who were on the Nazi side in WW2) is a lot more understandable historically than Georgian claims to South Ossetia.

Not true. Look at a map of independent Georgia back in 1918 (before the Soviet Union annexed Georgia) and you will find it includes the 2 regions now in dispute.

[Texas]

Be fair

I am sure they wanted to succeed too :)

Self determination is a perfectly reasonable thing and the Ossetians and Georgians have history. It was Uncle Joe (a Georgian) that drew many of the Soviet boundaries. Georgian territorial integrity might best be defined as the bits occupied by Georgians not artificial borders. The Serbian claim to Kosovo (and their distaste for the Albanians who were on the Nazi side in WW2) is a lot more understandable historically than Georgian claims to South Ossetia.
Both disputed regions in Georgia are due to the Soviets driving Georgians out of the two areas and replacing them with ethnic Russians.

[Texas]

Slovenia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo, Croatia, have all declared independance and their desire to succeed. The EU and the USA supported all those demands.

Now, South Ossetia and Abkhazia want to succeed. Isnt it hypocracy for us to now say "no..you must stay part of a nation you dont want to be part of"???


You only have to go back to 1991 to see what is behind this:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972214,00.html

Georgians have every reason to be worried that they may be high on Moscow's target list. The republic has been on a collision course with the Kremlin ever since Gamsakhurdia's nationalist coalition won an election victory last October. The first acts of the new parliament were to drop the words Soviet and Socialist from the republic's name and inaugurate a transitional period to full independence. Georgia has announced that it will not sign the new Union Treaty proposed by Gorbachev and has sent only 10% of its quota of conscripts to the armed forces. Says deputy parliamentary chairman Akaki Asatiani: "We make no secret of the fact that we are anticommunists committed to Georgian independence."

Fears are widespread that Moscow is creating a pretext for a military crackdown by inflaming unrest in the South Ossetian Autonomous Region, an ethnic enclave created for the Ossetians as a reward for their political loyalty after the Bolsheviks took control of the republic in 1921. Last September, as the rest of Georgia was moving toward independence, the South Ossetian regional council declared the area to be a "Soviet Democratic Republic" loyal to Moscow. The parliament in Tbilisi responded by dissolving the autonomous region altogether. Conflicts between the Georgian police and local separatists have resulted in at least 12 deaths.

Putin has a long memory and Russia has used SO as a pretext to crush Georgia for many years.

[GreyICE]

I've got to say, Georgia is on pretty thin footing here. It's really, really hard to spin it into an unjustified invasion when they're the ones who started killing people.

Doesn't strike me as too different from what Saddam did in the first Gulf war, and the Georgians got smacked just as hard (Also reminds me of Greece and Cyprus). We're just not the ones with the stick.

[Texas]

I've got to say, Georgia is on pretty thin footing here. It's really, really hard to spin it into an unjustified invasion when they're the ones who started killing people.

Doesn't strike me as too different from what Saddam did in the first Gulf war, and the Georgians got smacked just as hard (Also reminds me of Greece and Cyprus). We're just not the ones with the stick.
With the slight difference being that SO is internationally recognized as Georgian territory and that Russia has been fomenting rebellion in SO at least since 1991 as I posted above. Other than that you are right on target.

[Texas]

I've got to say, Georgia is on pretty thin footing here. It's really, really hard to spin it into an unjustified invasion when they're the ones who started killing people.

.


Russia claimed that Georgia killed 2000 civilians in the attack yet HRW has confirmed only 44 deaths both military and civilian. Russia is playing true to form.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm

On the Ossetian side they found:


Casualty numbers in Tskhinvali

A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. She said her hospital was the only clinic treating the wounded in Tskhinvali. The doctor said there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded and added that all of the wounded were later transferred to the Russian Ministry of Emergencies mobile hospitals in South and North Ossetia. As of August 13, there were no wounded left in the Tskhinvali hospital.
The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, of both military and civilians. The figure reflects only those killed in the city of Tskhinvali. But the doctor was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried, because the city morgue was not functioning due to the lack of electricity in the city.

From August 8 to 11, the doctor said, staff had to move all the patients into the hospital basement because of the constant shelling. The doctor said the hospital was under fire for 18 hours. Human Rights Watch documented the damage caused to the hospital building by a rocket believed to have been fired from a Grad multiple rocket launcher which hit the hospital, severely damaging treatment rooms on the second and third floors.

The doctor told Human Rights Watch that she could not leave the hospital because of the heavy shelling. She also said that two sisters, hospital employees, were killed on August 8 or 9, as they were hiding in the basement of their house.

From the Georgian side:

Attack on Gori town square

An attack on the main square in the Georgian town of Gori on August 12, 2008, killed and injured dozens of civilians, Human Rights Watch said today. The attack took place in the morning in front of the Gori Municipality Administration building, where several dozen civilians had gathered to collect food distributed by local officials. Victims of the attack described to Human Rights Watch how they saw numerous small explosions within seconds before they fell to the ground.

According to victims, at least eight people died immediately, including a Dutch journalist. The injured were initially taken to the Gori hospital, but were evacuated to Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, due to the deteriorating security situation. On August 12, the Gudushauri National Medical Center of Tbilisi admitted 23 civilians from Gori, many of them injured in the morning’s attack.

Although the Russian military initially denied that it was involved in military operations in Gori, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov confirmed on August 13 that Russian forces were active in the area. There were also several aerial bombardments of Gori from August 9 through 12 which could only have been carried out by Russian airplanes.

Keti Javakhishvili, 25, told Human Rights Watch researchers in Tbilisi that she went with her neighbors to get bread and was injured in the attack: “I heard an explosion and dropped to the ground.” Javakhishvili suffered massive trauma to her liver, stomach, and intestines, as well as hemorrhagic shock, said Dr. Merab Kiladze, head of the medical center’s surgery department.

Another victim, Nodar Mchedlishvili, 54, told Human Rights Watch that he went to the municipality building to get food to feed eight people displaced from South Ossetian villages. “In a couple of seconds from everywhere I heard what sounded like massive gunfire. We fell on the ground and some people never got up.” Mchedlishvili sustained shrapnel wounds to his left leg and knee. He was driven to Gori hospital in a car with six other victims as part of a convoy of the injured before being transferred to Tbilisi. Giorgi Malkhaziani, 59, whose right leg was shredded as a result of the attack, corroborated Mchedlishvili’s accounts of events.

“The circumstances suggest that Russian forces either carried out the attack on Gori or at least should know of an attack by South Ossetian forces,” said Cartner. “Russia clearly has the duty to investigate this incident as a potential war crime and hold those responsible to account.”

It is unclear whether there was a legitimate military target in the area. The Georgian military were reported to have withdrawn from Gori the previous night. Victims interviewed by Human Rights Watch indicated there was no military presence in the area. The multi-story municipality building is clearly visible, and as a civilian object is protected from targeting.

Burning and looting of Georgian villages

On August 13, Russian forces seemed to be taking measures to prevent the looting of Georgian villages; the road south from the town of Java to Tskhinvali was closed to members of South Ossetian paramilitary groups. Russian officers at the checkpoint told Human Rights Watch that the road closure was due to the massive looting taking place in Georgian villages along the road.

However, moving back from Tskhinvali to Java on the evening of August 13, Human Rights Watch researchers saw, for the second day running, houses that were ablaze in several Georgian villages. They had clearly just been torched. One counterintelligence officer of the South Ossetian forces claimed to Human Rights Watch that: “We burned these houses. We want to make sure that they [the Georgians] can’t come back, because if they do come back, this will be a Georgian enclave again and this should not happen.”

The officer went on to describe events during the fighting, including the execution of a Georgian armed man: “The day before yesterday [August 11, 2008], the Georgians killed two of my soldiers in the village of Tamarasheni. We had been conducting a sweep operation there. We detained three of them. Two of them didn’t do anything to us so we just let them go – we couldn’t take them anywhere as I had to take care of my own men first. The third one seemed to be high on something – a normal person would have surrendered, and this one was shooting at us instead. We questioned him and then executed him.”

[GreyICE]

With the slight difference being that SO is internationally recognized as Georgian territory and that Russia has been fomenting rebellion in SO at least since 1991 as I posted above. Other than that you are right on target.
I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.

That honestly seems mostly like an anti-Russian pissing contest than actual legitimate complaints at this point. When you have not one, but two internationally monitored referendums that come out screamingly for independence, a region that is semi-autonomous already, and a government openly hostile to the supposed citizens of its country, its hard to say that there's no legitimate complaints.

When said country declares a sudden invasion on the eve of the Olympics, obviously hoping to hand the world a coup de gras that they were hoping would slide by thanks to the press being focused on China, they really lose sympathy.

I'll note the article you posted is from 1991. The Georgians have been 'high on Moscow's hit list' for 17 years, and until this invasion the worst thing that happened was Moscow funded a few anti-Georgian groups. Not the most above-board thing in the world, but nothing every country doesn't play at, and certainly no pretext for the war.

I really think the Georgians were deluded enough to think they could Blitzkrieg SO with no real protest during the Olympics, which makes the complaints of SO really make much more sense. What sort of government is that delusional? That really is the Saddam model of delusional 'reading your own press releases' government.

[Texas]

I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.

That honestly seems mostly like an anti-Russian pissing contest than actual legitimate complaints at this point. When you have not one, but two internationally monitored referendums that come out screamingly for independence, a region that is semi-autonomous already, and a government openly hostile to the supposed citizens of its country, its hard to say that there's no legitimate complaints.

When said country declares a sudden invasion on the eve of the Olympics, obviously hoping to hand the world a coup de gras that they were hoping would slide by thanks to the press being focused on China, they really lose sympathy.

I'll note the article you posted is from 1991. The Georgians have been 'high on Moscow's hit list' for 17 years, and until this invasion the worst thing that happened was Moscow funded a few anti-Georgian groups. Not the most above-board thing in the world, but nothing every country doesn't play at, and certainly no pretext for the war.

I really think the Georgians were deluded enough to think they could Blitzkrieg SO with no real protest during the Olympics, which makes the complaints of SO really make much more sense. What sort of government is that delusional? That really is the Saddam model of delusional 'reading your own press releases' government.

I couldn't care less what the Russian rationale was. The fact is that South Ossetia was and still remains Georgian. Georgia had avery right to stop the seperatist groups from acting in concert with Russia. You appear to overlook the fact that Russia wasn't the only peacekeepers in SO, Georgia also had a contengent that came under attack by seperatists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#1989-2008

The Republic of South Ossetia consists of a checkerboard of Georgian-inhabited and Ossetian-inhabited towns and villages. The largely Ossetian capital city of Tskhinvali and most of the other Ossetian-inhabited communities are governed by the separatist government, while the Georgian-inhabited villages and towns are administered by the Georgian government. This close proximity and the intermixing of the two communities has made the conflict in South Ossetia particularly dangerous, since any attempt to create an ethnically pure territory would involve population transfers on a large scale.

The above is exactly what Russia was up to by driving Georgians out of SO and giving the Ossetians Russian passports Russia which copied Hitler's move in Checoslovacia.

On September 11, 2006, the South Ossetian Information and Press Committee announced that the republic will hold an independence referendum[7] (the first referendum had not been recognized by the international community as valid in 1992[36]) on November 12, 2006. The voters would decide on whether or not South Ossetia "should preserve its present de facto status of an independent state". Georgia denounced the move as a "political absurdity". However, On September 13, 2006, the Council of Europe (CoE) Secretary General Terry Davis commented on the problem, stating that it would be unlikely that anyone would accept the results of this referendum and instead urged South Ossetian government to engage in the negotiations with Georgia.[37] On September 13, 2006 European Union Special Representative to the South Caucasus, Peter Semneby, while visiting Moscow, said: "results of the South Ossetian independence referendum will have no meaning for the European Union".[38] Peter Semneby also added that this referendum will not contribute to the peaceful conflict resolution process in South Ossetia.

[Texas]

With every nation other than Cuba condemning Russia/Putin he has greatly overplayed his hand. His effort to intimidate backfired with Poland's stance on missile defence and all of the Balkan states lining up with Georgia.
http://www.theotherrussia.org/2008/08/13/illarionov-russia-lost-the-georgian-war/
Andrei Illarionov , a liberal economist and former policy advisor to the Russian president, has released his conclusions on the war in Georgia. The conflict, he argues, was a “brilliant provocation carefully planned and successfully carried out by the Russian leadership.”

However, the Russian leadership did not achieve its main goals– removing Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili from power and changing Georgia’s political regime. In Illarionov’s opinion, Georgia’s NATO aspirations have only been heightened.

By leading forces into the territory of a foreign government, Russia has been internationally recognized as an aggressor, according to the economist. Georgia, on the other hand, became an internationally recognized victim.

Illarionov believes that Russia has become completely isolated in its foreign policy, as only Cuba supported Russia’s Georgian campaign.

“The G8 has, in effect, become the G7, ” Illarionov asserts.

[Nogbad]

Both disputed regions in Georgia are due to the Soviets driving Georgians out of the two areas and replacing them with ethnic Russians.

Abkhazians and Ossetians are ethnic Russians now? :eye-poppi

[Thunder]

no..but the Russians handed out passports like they were candy. now the russians can claim "we are only trying to protect our citizens".

=)

[Nogbad]

no..but the Russians handed out passports like they were candy. now the russians can claim "we are only trying to protect our citizens".

=)

That is true but they were keen to get the passports. These people do not want to be part of the Georgian State. This goes back a long way. It is a complex region and there have over the centuries been many rulers. The rather strangely Judaic Khazars, The Georgians themselves had a little mini-Empire, The Mongols, The Turks, Imperial Russia. There are a lot of ancient enmities that sour relations in that area. The Georgians are fiercely Christian the Abkhazians are mainly Muslim from the Turkish era. Regardless of attachments to lines on a map from illustrious pasts I can't see the value of keeping regions that never wanted to be under Georgian rule even back in the 12th century. This does not mean that Georgians are nasty people or that Georgia should be a pariah state. These ethnic feuds are ancient and have little logical rationale today.

If this was a case of Russia claiming these areas as Russian against the will of the Ossetians etc., then there would be a serious issue but these people want to be Russian (or under the Russian umbrella at least). The same regions did not back Georgia back in 1922 either.

In my own view, Georgia should bite the bullet and accept that these regions do not want to be part of their state. Georgia has considerable potential, it produces good wine, is a beautiful country and has an incredible wealth of culture and history. It is a potential tourist gold mine and its ties to Byzantine and hence European culture mean that its longer term future probably is with the EU, if it can get a bit of stability and lose the slightly loose cannon attitude of its politicians.

[Darth Rotor]

It still is ...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1563317.ece

:D
From your link:
Reporter shot on live TV

I think the Sun is being a bit irresponsible, with this, as it only encoourages the snipers, the way flaming encourages a troll. :cool:

As to the Bank Job, I see Kellisky's Heros. Who do you see? That one guy is a dead ringer for Oddball . . .

DR

[Darth Rotor]

When said country declares a sudden invasion on the eve of the Olympics, obviously hoping to hand the world a coup de gras that they were hoping would slide by thanks to the press being focused on China, they really lose sympathy.
I think you may have meant coup de main, or more likely a fait accompli, the way you presented that with "present the world."

The coup de gras seems to have been administered to Georgian ambitions in SO by the Russians, has it not? :confused:

DR

[GreyICE]

I think you may have meant coup de main, or more likely a fait accompli, the way you presented that with "present the world."

The coup de gras seems to have been administered to Georgian ambitions in SO by the Russians, has it not? :confused:

DR

Well I was thinking Coup de Gras as in they cut off the SO military and take over the region very very quickly (SO has essentially no military of their own). Coup de gras is a death blow, and I think they were thinking if they actually took over SO and defeated it swiftly, the retaliation would be limited to fist shaking.

So in context it meant what I wanted it to mean. Coup de main is technically more accurate, but who the hell knows what that means?

[Darth Rotor]

Well I was thinking Coup de Gras as in they cut off the SO military and take over the region very very quickly (SO has essentially no military of their own). Coup de gras is a death blow, and I think they were thinking if they actually took over SO and defeated it swiftly, the retaliation would be limited to fist shaking.

So in context it meant what I wanted it to mean. Coup de main is technically more accurate, but who the hell knows what that means?
I see where you were going, and I think the usual term is that someone wanted to present a fait accompli to the world by having done so whilst they were not paying attention, as in at Beijing, and when they finally got heads out of Olympic woo, the fait accompli is SO and all that would have been presented to the Russians.

Just remarking on common turns of phrase. Your point in general was well made.

DR

[Thunder]

South Ossetia and Abkhazia may deserve the right to become independant, but a Russian occupation and de-facto annexation into Russia is not independance.

[Darth Rotor]

South Ossetia and Abkhazia may deserve the right to become independant, but a Russian occupation and de-facto annexation into Russia is not independance.
What did Gandalf say? Many who deserve life die anyway? (Not a perfect recollection of the conversation he had with Frodo over Gollum deserving death, etc.)

The issue of "deserve" is fine from a point of view here and there, but power and force come into play.

You get the rights you can hold, either by agreement or by force.

DR

[OlbarStein]

Imho they deserve the right for independence if we apply the same rules as in Yugoslavia. There shouldn't be a different standard for friends and enemies.

Georgia shouldn't be allowed to enter NATO before this problems are solved in a peaceful way.

[geni]

South Ossetia and Abkhazia may deserve the right to become independant, but a Russian occupation and de-facto annexation into Russia is not independance.

Ossetians are traditionaly loyal to moscow. Not out of any great love mind but because they haven't had the strength to be independent in a long time and Moscow was generaly prepared to let them have more independence than anyone else. Oh and they managed to grab a load of land off the Ingush thanks to moscow.