argh, my office is promoting woo!

[borealys]

I work at a private child development clinic, where we do speech, physio, occupational and play therapy. Most of what we do is strictly evidence-based stuff, our director's long use of and commitment to some recently controversial oral-motor therapies aside.

She keeps the waiting room stocked with reading material, including an assortment of flyers from places and programs that might interest our clients. Support groups for families of autistic children, charities supporting children with disabilities, kindergyms, mental health resources, the "mummies list" of mom-friendly businesses in the area, etcetera.

I noticed a couple of new flyers when I was in there today that disturbed me. They were from a nearby "Wellness Centre" offering such things as bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, naturopathy, acupuncture, and, most disturbing to me, "biomedical" autism therapy based on the DAN protocol.

I make a point of warning parents of my autistic clients to be careful when they're doing their research on their child's condition. There's a lot of good information out there, but there's a lot of nonsense, too. Now I find some of that very nonsense being promoted right out in our waiting room??? What kind of message does that send?

The thing is, it's not my clinic. I'm only there as an independent contractor. My name is not on the wall or on the letterhead. I don't know why my boss is allowing these things to be promoted in her waiting room, but I don't think it's my place to steal all of the flyers. Instead, I covered them up with a few copies of an unrelated article from a reputable professional magazine.

What would you do in this situation?

[Smackety]

I would rip down the flyers, storm into the director's office, and demand an explanation. I would be clear that giving parents false hope with bogus therapy is immoral, unethical, and should be illegal.
I would also ask for permission to post the flyers in a special section under a large sign that said "Warning! Scam Alert!" or something like that.

[Wides]

No, it's not your place to steal the fliers. However, if it's something you believe in, then step out of line and trash them. If not, then mind yourself when giving out personal disclosures about that company's fliers. That can get touchy.

[Giraffe107]

Can you have a word the director and tell her your concerns? You don't have to march in there demanding anything but just calmly say you noticed the flyers, and your concerns from a medical/evidence based standpoint.

[rjh01]

I agree with Giraffe107. For example the director may not have been the person who put them there. It could have been a patient. The director may be on your side and remove them himself.

[GreyICE]

Bring your concerns to the appropriate people rationally.

If they're supporting this, offer evidence and studies that show it does not work.

If they are not supporting this, and a patient put them there, post a sign requesting people not to place promotional materials in the waiting room.

[Dragonrock]

It's entirely possible that the purveyors of the woo mentioned in the fliers placed them there themselves. They knew what types of people frequented your establishment and simply walked and and dumped their crap in your lobby in the hopes of drawing in a few more marks. Bring it up with the boss before removing them yourself.

If the boss knew about them and placed them there be prepared for the "I don't believe in it, I'm just providing information, some people want it so I'm telling them where to find it" argument. Explain that she is implying support by providing the literature and have a few examples of the dangers of these types of "treatments."

[Elizabeth I]

It's entirely possible that the purveyors of the woo mentioned in the fliers placed them there themselves. They knew what types of people frequented your establishment and simply walked and and dumped their crap in your lobby in the hopes of drawing in a few more marks. Bring it up with the boss before removing them yourself.

If the boss knew about them and placed them there be prepared for the "I don't believe in it, I'm just providing information, some people want it so I'm telling them where to find it" argument. Explain that she is implying support by providing the literature and have a few examples of the dangers of these types of "treatments."

Absolutely - I work for a public library and we are constantly having to go around and pick up flyers and take down posters that people have left without checking with anyone (and before anybody starts in on "but it's a public library," I will just say that we are not supposed to promote services for pay, private businesses, etc.)

[Rocko]

Yeah, I agree with the above. It may well not have been placed there by the staff knowingly - it might just have been inserted in by someone else (could be a parent who has used them, for example); they could have been nodded in by staff member not really realising what they are - a harassed receptionist, for example.

I'd bring it - non-confrontationally - to the attention of those in charge, voice your concerns and see what they say. And if they won't move them, I guess you think about whether you still want to work there or not.

[Arthur Denton]

I must say that acupuncture worked for me, and really well, better than any medicine, so, I must not criticize that - when well done. Now the rest is a reason for you to beat your boss with the war hammer of skepticism!

Or at least with a decent alternative flier, with science-based therapy.

[Toke]

"biomedical" autism therapy based on the DAN protocol.

Is that the one with assorted braces to force specific movement patterns and fix inborn neaural damage?

[borealys]

Good point that she may not have been the one to put them there. I may bring the topic up the next time I talk to her, carefully. It may end up being a touchy issue, but we'll see.

I've often wondered how my pharmacists feel about the fact that their chain insists on sticking homeopathic remedies and woo-filled books in the waiting area for prescription pick-ups. Last time I was in there, I noticed that the book rack had been moved over to an out-of-the-way corner and the homeopathic pills had been moved almost out of sight behind a pot full of 99-cent mini hand cream tubes.

Of course, they may have just been trying to clear some space, but if it was done deliberately to get the junk out of sight, I can sympathize. :)

[Dragonrock]

I must say that acupuncture worked for me, and really well, better than any medicine, so, I must not criticize that - when well done. Now the rest is a reason for you to beat your boss with the war hammer of skepticism!

Or at least with a decent alternative flier, with science-based therapy.

Yes, and you aren't a biased sample at all.

[godless dave]

I must say that acupuncture worked for me, and really well, better than any medicine


For autism?

[borealys]

Is that the one with assorted braces to force specific movement patterns and fix inborn neaural damage?

From what I can tell from the clinic's testimonials, it treats autism as a biochemical disease that can be "cured" with vitamin injections, anti-yeast medication, probiotics, high-dose omega-3, and a gluten-free/casein-free diet.

In conjunction with speech, behavioural, and occupational therapy, of course. And when improvements are seen, it's the "biomedical" interventions that get the lion's share of the credit, regardless of how much work the other specialists have put in.

[Toke]

Ok, different woo then, thanks.

It is a perfectly natural instinct for woo peddlers to drop their leaflets everywere victims might see it.
We have had the wachttower appear in the deckoffice seemingly out of nowhere.
Why could the same not happen to you?

[Arthur Denton]

For autism?

Yeah, not really, it was a wrist muscle wound. Maybe for autism it won't work, but it is very good for muscle and nervous problems.

@Dragonrock: What do you mean?

[Mark Felt]

Maybe for autism it won't work, but it is very good for muscle and nervous problems.

As good as randomly pricking the skin and various placebos, even?

[Arthur Denton]

As good as randomly pricking the skin and various placebos, even?

Look, placebo or not, the ones who treated me are graduated doctors, physicians, with scientific acupuncture specializations. I don't believe it'd be a placebo, specially because many athletes from local soccer teams also treat themselves with those doctors.

I didn't go for a witch doctor, if that's what you're implying.

[pchams]

Yeah, not really, it was a wrist muscle wound. Maybe for autism it won't work, but it is very good for muscle and nervous problems.



Did it unblock your qi, or do you have a rational explanation why you think acupuncture worked?

[Mark Felt]

I don't believe it'd be a placebo

That's one of the requirements for placebos to work, IIRC.

[Dragonrock]

@Dragonrock: What do you mean?

Other posts of yours I've read show you to be generally accepting of efficacy for alternative medicine. This means that you saying that something worked for you doesn't really carry much weight in the real world.

[Arthur Denton]

Other posts of yours I've read show you to be generally accepting of efficacy for alternative medicine. This means that you saying that something worked for you doesn't really carry much weight in the real world.

No, don't look at me like a faith healer fool. I'd step down of acupuncture any time, and in fact, I did it once. It doesn't constitute an habit. I'm always, when ill, visiting doctors for a scientific approach and after that I will use the medicine as prescribed, no prayer, no good intentions, just it. Why? Because it was tested and proved under certain circumstances.

I feel slightly offended by what you say here "This means that you saying that something worked for you doesn't really carry much weight in the real world." because I'm not implying it should work for you: I've stated it worked for me. Your real world? Your real world is the same as mine? No. You live somewhere else, with different sets of culture and education. It may not be so in your real world, but it affected my life in a positive way. I'm not advertising acupuncture. I said I must say that acupuncture worked for me, and really well, better than any medicine, so, I must not criticize that - when well done. which is true: It helped me on a very difficult issue for me. It worked better than the anti inflamatory I was having for a whole month, and I'm typing here thanks to that treatment. I will not criticize the possible good work of an acupuncturist, sorry, if you feel like I'm in love with a witch doctor, that's your problem.

Regarding "many of my posts", pfeh, I have 100+ posts here, most of them are intended to be funny. Don't be such a pretentious fool: You don't know me well enough. I invite you to try, though, even if I'm not really willing to hug you, I may want to discuss more "stuff" with you.

That's one of the requirements for placebos to work, IIRC.

And? What's your point? That just because I've allowed someone to needle me I'm a nutcase? The doctor explained me what was the process, much like my orthodontist, my general physician or the nurse who stitched me when I was cut in an accident in the past. It worked, I have no complains.

Did it unblock your qi, or do you have a rational explanation why you think acupuncture worked?

What the doctor told me, is that the needles stimulate the healing by inducing the production of certain hormones to ease the pain, and some of the substances released in the body act as home-made anti-inflamatories, healing it.

[Mark Felt]

And? What's your point? That just because I've allowed someone to needle me I'm a nutcase? The doctor explained me what was the process, much like my orthodontist, my general physician or the nurse who stitched me when I was cut in an accident in the past. It worked, I have no complains.

Just saying don't rule out that it's a placebo because you don't think it's a placebo.

[Blue Mountain]

This bears repeating:

We began to make progress in medicine only when we discovered how easily we can (and do) fool ourselves.

[Dragonrock]

I feel slightly offended by what you say here "This means that you saying that something worked for you doesn't really carry much weight in the real world." because I'm not implying it should work for you: I've stated it worked for me. Your real world? Your real world is the same as mine? No. You live somewhere else, with different sets of culture and education. It may not be so in your real world, but it affected my life in a positive way. I'm not advertising acupuncture. I said I must say that acupuncture worked for me, and really well, better than any medicine, so, I must not criticize that - when well done. which is true: It helped me on a very difficult issue for me. It worked better than the anti inflamatory I was having for a whole month, and I'm typing here thanks to that treatment. I will not criticize the possible good work of an acupuncturist, sorry, if you feel like I'm in love with a witch doctor, that's your problem.

Um, no, My culture or level of education have no affect on reality. For example, no where on earth can men fly just by flapping their arms. Any education or background they have isn't going to affect that. Each of us does not have their own reality bubble so that the way the world works in one place is no different from another. The rules of science are the same in the USA, Brazil, and even the Arctic. Gravity, matter, temperature, chemistry all function in defined and generally understood ways and acupuncture goes against all that is understood about biology. There is only one "real world" and you and I live in the same one.

[Arthur Denton]

Just saying don't rule out that it's a placebo because you don't think it's a placebo.

So be it, a placebo. And it worked. I have my wrist back.

Um, no, My culture or level of education have no affect on reality. For example, no where on earth can men fly just by flapping their arms. Any education or background they have isn't going to affect that. Each of us does not have their own reality bubble so that the way the world works in one place is no different from another. The rules of science are the same in the USA, Brazil, and even the Arctic. Gravity, matter, temperature, chemistry all function in defined and generally understood ways and acupuncture goes against all that is understood about biology. There is only one "real world" and you and I live in the same one.

Culture doesn't affect the way you view things? Beg your pardon, but Faith Healers are a product of culture. Experience won't often mislead or guide you?

It worked for me. I said I will not criticize it, and I will not. That's my whole point. If it works, if it doesn't, if it is a placebo, doesn't matter. I won't criticize it. That's it, finito. If that's what you want, I'll not post in this thread again. It's not a fight I want.

[Dragonrock]

Culture doesn't affect the way you view things? Beg your pardon, but Faith Healers are a product of culture. Experience won't often mislead or guide you?

It worked for me. I said I will not criticize it, and I will not. That's my whole point. If it works, if it doesn't, if it is a placebo, doesn't matter. I won't criticize it. That's it, finito. If that's what you want, I'll not post in this thread again. It's not a fight I want.


The way I view things doesn't change the world. If some people believe that a car caught on fire because of faulty wiring and some other people think that some aliens used a laserbeam to heat up the car until it exploded then they can't both be right. One of them must be wrong. There aren't two worlds, one in which it was wiring and the other in which it was aliens. Similarly, either acupuncture works or it doesn't. If it doesn't work in the US then, assuming acupuncture means the same thing, it doesn't work in Brazil.

There are some very simple and mundane things that could cause you to think that acupuncture worked for you and the fact that you refuse to even consider them is quite frustrating. You need to realize that this is a skeptics board. People here don't generally accept personal stories as proof that something beyond the realms of science has occurred. You are welcome to believe whatever you like, just don't be surprised when people make light of you for not listening to alternative explanations.

[fls]

I must say that acupuncture worked for me, and really well, better than any medicine, so, I must not criticize that - when well done. Now the rest is a reason for you to beat your boss with the war hammer of skepticism!

Except for bioidentical hormone replacement therapy. That worked for me really well. So all the rest is a reason for you to beat your boss with the war hammer of skepticism except BIHRT and acupuncture.

Linda

[Elizabeth I]

It worked better than the anti inflamatory I was having for a whole month...

And it worked. I have my wrist back.

[bolding mine]

And it doesn't ever cross your mind that perhaps, just perhaps, the month's worth of treatment with an anti-inflammatory drug that you had before the acupuncture might have been what did it, and the acupuncture "results" were just a coincidence?

ROFL.

[borealys]

[bolding mine]

And it doesn't ever cross your mind that perhaps, just perhaps, the month's worth of treatment with an anti-inflammatory drug that you had before the acupuncture might have been what did it, and the acupuncture "results" were just a coincidence?

ROFL.

Reminds me of a parent I worked with who told me quite earnestly that she really thought the GF/CF diet she'd started her autistic daughter on was working because she was improving. I pointed out that she'd been in speech therapy for three months, and that she'd started occupational therapy the very same week she'd started the GF/CF diet. To mom's credit, she acknowledged the point.

When you're trying multiple therapies at once, some of which take some time to start showing effect, it's quite simply impossible to tell how many and which ones are responsible for any improvement you see. It pays to be careful about any conclusions you draw -- especially if you're planning to tell your speech therapist to her face that you're crediting someone else with getting your kid talking!

[JJM]

I must say that acupuncture worked for me, and really well, better than any medicine, so, I must not criticize that - when well done. Now the rest is a reason for you to beat your boss with the war hammer of skepticism!

Or at least with a decent alternative flier, with science-based therapy.Except for homeopathy. That worked really well for me. So all the rest is a reason for you to beat your boss with the war hammer of skepticism except BIHRT, acupuncture and homeopathy.

[articulett]

Except for homeopathy. That worked really well for me. So all the rest is a reason for you to beat your boss with the war hammer of skepticism except BIHRT, acupuncture and homeopathy.

Oh and prayer... I hear that works too... toss some of those Jehovah Witness booklets in the office... and keep prayer free from the hammer of skepticism!






Who needs double blind studies when you have anecdotes!


(the plural of anecdote is not evidence.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece)

[SezMe]

I've often wondered how my pharmacists feel about the fact that their chain insists on sticking homeopathic remedies and woo-filled books in the waiting area for prescription pick-ups.
Like Denton, I have an anecdote to provide to this thread relative to the above. One time I was really annoyed at all the homeo crap in the aisles next to the pharmacy area in my local drug store. So I complained to the head pharmacist and she just rolled her eyes. She said the pharmacy department had absolutely no say in what retail products were sold in the store.

[Arthur Denton]

[bolding mine]

And it doesn't ever cross your mind that perhaps, just perhaps, the month's worth of treatment with an anti-inflammatory drug that you had before the acupuncture might have been what did it, and the acupuncture "results" were just a coincidence?

ROFL.

The pain ended, the swelling receded, all within 24 hours.

[Elizabeth I]

The pain ended, the swelling receded, all within 24 hours.


I repeat:

And it doesn't ever cross your mind that perhaps, just perhaps, the month's worth of treatment with an anti-inflammatory drug that you had before the acupuncture might have been what did it, and the acupuncture "results" were just a coincidence?

ROFL.

[fls]

The pain ended, the swelling receded, all within 24 hours.

So post hoc ergo propter hoc, now? Cool. That makes my life so much easier.

Linda

[Arthur Denton]

I apologize for being a woo lover. Maybe someday I can get better enough to, at least, deserve less beatings. Have a nice, friends.

[JJM]

The pain ended, the swelling receded, all within 24 hours.I heard an instructive anecdote. The guy had tinnitus for several weeks, and went to a specialist. the doctor did some tests and suggested that the guy wait a little longer to see if it would resolve itself. The guy asked what could be causing it, the doctor nonchalantly suggested a brain tumor.

The guy was rattled by that suggestion; but he went home. On the trip home, he realized that the noise was gone and, years later, he said it had never recurred. I guess you could say he was immediately cured; but with no treatment of any sort.

[Chris Haynes]

I apologize for being a woo lover. Maybe someday I can get better enough to, at least, deserve less beatings. Have a nice, friends.

It's okay. Just try to remember the main evil we require is evidence and that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Since you mention (as you helped me with my persimmon problem) that you like to read, I would suggest you read the very funny and interesting book "Snake Oil Science", with a list of papers and an explanation if they were good or bad. There is a review here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4

[Eos of the Eons]

Good point that she may not have been the one to put them there. I may bring the topic up the next time I talk to her, carefully. It may end up being a touchy issue, but we'll see.




You will let us know as soon as you talk to her? My boss and I disagree on the vaccine issue, I just didn't disagree with her take on it. She got worked up about it, and I just listened and mentioned I didn't have any bad experiences with my kids, so felt lucky. I didn't try to tell her that vaccines don't case ear aches, didn't argue, just mentioned that I felt lucky that it didn't happen to my kids, and she told me I probably was lucky, and that was the end of issue. I never bring it up, as I know her feelings on it now, but at least she doesn't tell me I'm an idiot for exposing my children to the "dangers of vaccines". We've thankfully agreed to disagree, without argument.

Now, in your case, if she insists on keeping the fliers, then you have a whole different can of worms on your hands. To me, it's an ethical dilemma, and I could no longer work there. I've left one job because of an issue like this, and would not hesitate to leave another. Then again, everyone is short-staffed in my area lately, and you can get a job like you can get a mosquito by just sticking a resume/arm out there.

[Eos of the Eons]

The pain ended, the swelling receded, all within 24 hours.

I had a headache. I stood on my head for 5 seconds. I felt better in 24 hours.

This has been a demonstration of why personal stories are useless. That will be 5 bucks please.

[Arthur Denton]

After considering the thread thoroughly, i've made a small internet research about needling woo, and I've reached certain links that tell me it is actually not even a chinese technique, but a french technique adapted from the chinese, and some studies saying that the acupuncture without the said technique has almost the same efficiency as that with a non-standard practice.

Would anyone have links who can help me go further in this anti-woo investigation? I'm sorry if I behaved like a jackass, but living and learning.

[Mark Felt]

a french technique

It can't be, how could you surrender through it?

[Miss_Kitt]

So if you French somebody with needles, their swelling goes down??? Are we allowed to make posts like that?

;)

ML

[JJM]

After considering the thread thoroughly, i've made a small internet research about needling woo, and I've reached certain links that tell me it is actually not even a chinese technique, but a french technique adapted from the chinese, and some studies saying that the acupuncture without the said technique has almost the same efficiency as that with a non-standard practice.That is the first I have heard of the French connection.

Would anyone have links who can help me go further in this anti-woo investigation? {snip}Sure- Quackwatch is the best single source for advice on quackery on the Net http://www.quackwatch.org/

The Skeptic's Dictionary is also good http://www.skepdic.com/

To date, there are three articles on acupuncture here http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ One (by Wallace Sampson) is tongue in cheek, one is a review of an article on acupuncture.

This blog http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ has some good articles on the subject. I have verified that the anonymous blogger ("Orac") is a professor at a medical school affiliated with the university I attended.

There is a good book by Kurt Butler A consumer's Guide to "Alternative Medicine" (Prometheus, 1992). Barrett and Jarvis edited a slightly more technical book The Health Robbers (Prometheus, 1993). Both books have chapters on acupuncture.

[Arthur Denton]

So if you French somebody with needles, their swelling goes down??? Are we allowed to make posts like that?

;)

ML

No. I want to understand the reasons to call it woo, and if it is indeed woo, I'll be convinced it was not due to the acumpuncture that my swelling receded. What I have gathered in this regard is that it is a pseudo-tecnhique copied and modified by french last century that had a few key promoters, therefore it became widespread. And that the efficiency of the technical acu is equal to an untechnical on certain tests. I want to understand this issue better.

[rjh01]

The reason it is woo is that most studies fail to prove that it works better than a placebo. There are no methods for it to work.

[Arthur Denton]

I've been reading quite a lot on those links, JJM, thank you. It's something to consider, yes.

[Elizabeth I]

After considering the thread thoroughly, i've made a small internet research about needling woo, and I've reached certain links that tell me it is actually not even a chinese technique, but a french technique adapted from the chinese, and some studies saying that the acupuncture without the said technique has almost the same efficiency as that with a non-standard practice.

Would anyone have links who can help me go further in this anti-woo investigation? I'm sorry if I behaved like a jackass, but living and learning.

This is a truly impressive post and should be used as an example for some other posters on this forum.

[TheDaver]

I don't believe it'd be a placebo, specially because many athletes from local soccer teams also treat themselves with those doctors.
Yeah, because other people doing it magically makes it effective.

[James Fox]

Is that the one with assorted braces to force specific movement patterns and fix inborn neaural damage?

You may find this article interesting and informative.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

[Toke]

No, I was thinking if some therapi that sounded like it might work. It was tested throughoutly in danish hospitals and instutions during the 30´s and 40´s and flunked.

It was then revived a few years ago under a new name and with part of it a secret technique only disclosed upon payment. They even managed to get money from public coffers.

I am not sure what inborn neural damage it was surposed to heal, but the idea was to retrain movement patterns in children. It started with reptilian, then mammal, and at last human movements.

It took a few years before somebody chekked it against medical history, and got very loud.

[borealys]

I am not sure what inborn neural damage it was surposed to heal, but the idea was to retrain movement patterns in children. It started with reptilian, then mammal, and at last human movements.


That sounds ... um ... bizarre. Like some hideous joke application of evolutionary theory.

[Ivor the Engineer]

That sounds ... um ... bizarre. Like some hideous joke application of evolutionary theory.

Evolution therapy?

At least they're not creationists.:)

[Toke]

Well, it must have sounded convincing at the time (30´s), the testing was quite througout, and done by real physicians.

The obese mentality was postulated around 1910, taken for granted, debunked later, and comes around again.

Who much else is recycled as woo?

[borealys]

Updating this story--

Ohhh, it's worse than I thought. Much worse. When I found out that it wasn't my boss but one of the lower-ranking therapists bringing in the alt-med flyers, I thought, alright, this is going to be okay.

Then I mentioned it, pretty non-confrontationally, at a staff meeting. Seems my boss is, after all, a fan of the place -- she said that of course not all alt-med clinics are good, but this one is good because it's owned by a local pharmacist who offers broken up MMR shots. (!!!) No one else on the team seemed to have any hesitation about accepting this.

Then I was introduced to our newest contact: an osteopath. I didn't comment at the time.

*covers face in shame*

A part of me is glad for the brochures the "osteopath" left behind. They woke me the hell up. Seems this woman offers a program that consists of craniosacral therapy and reflexology with some weird "rebirthing" ideas mixed in. Nowhere, by the way, is osteopathy mentioned in the flyer.

I'm sorry to admit that I was tempted to let the osteopathy go. I was tempted to let the "biomedical" interventions go. Just so long as we weren't actively referring to these people, I was not going to worry about some people in my office believing in it.

But now my boss is actively referring people ... to an energy healer. I can't let that go. Not if I want to live with myself as a professional, or as a human being. I won't be able to look my clients in the face if I let my boss send them to this woman.

The boss is out of town for the next few weeks, so I have some time to get my head together and decide how to approach the conversation. I don't want to leave this job. Aside from this one issue, it's a wonderful job and I love it. I get along well with my boss and don't want to antagonize her, but...

Aaaargh. Just aaaargh. This is not okay.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

borealys,

I went back and read the entire thread before replying. You seemed to have participated in the education of Mr Denton so it has not been a waste. :D

However, deciding what to do is a real problem that does not appear to have a easy answer. I have been a couple of times involved in some thing similar but not to the extent of involvement you have. By speaking up I may have lost a client but not my job.

If you just speak out to management, it does not seem likely things will be changed and you will be out of a job.

You need someone with authority on your side. If you are a member of a professional association, asking it for help may be an option.

You say it is a private clinic but is it in anyway supported by the Provincial government? Either by referrals or some form of payment for patient treatment? Or, is it licensed in any way. If so, I would investigate with Ministry of Health and Social Services whether something can be done without you being directly involved.

Remember this advice is worth what you paid for it and I am not a lawyer. :D

[Silly Green Monkey]

Are you sure she's an osteopath? she sounds like a chiropracter (osteopaths are real medicine, not alt).

[fls]

Are you sure she's an osteopath? she sounds like a chiropracter (osteopaths are real medicine, not alt).

They are in the US, but not in Canada.

Linda

[Soapy Sam]

http://www.dryneedling.com.au/what-is-dry-needling/

Interesting spelling error here- unless there really is such a thing as a hyperdermic syringe.

Many physiotherapists with very mainstream qualifications and great experience accept the use of solid needles to release muscle spasm by mechanically stimulating trigger points. As they use available accupuncture needles, they often refer to the practice as "accupuncture".
Technically it is not, as meridians, chi etc are not involved, but in my experience, some physios blur the distinction by attending accupuncture courses and using accu-jargon. I find physios are more interested in results than theory. How much is placebo is a secondary interest. (I've known them to operate ultrasound for pain control with the power off. It seems it works that way just as well and the power bills are lower).

For that matter, I'm unsure how sound the evidence is for trigger points in the first place.

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

I don't want to leave this job. Aside from this one issue, it's a wonderful job and I love it. I get along well with my boss and don't want to antagonize her, but...

Aaaargh. Just aaaargh. This is not okay.

What makes you think there is a job anywhere in the world where you will not have to put up with coworkers' wierd ideas about the nature of reality?

[DC]

Um, no, My culture or level of education have no affect on reality. For example, no where on earth can men fly just by flapping their arms. Any education or background they have isn't going to affect that. Each of us does not have their own reality bubble so that the way the world works in one place is no different from another. The rules of science are the same in the USA, Brazil, and even the Arctic. Gravity, matter, temperature, chemistry all function in defined and generally understood ways and acupuncture goes against all that is understood about biology. There is only one "real world" and you and I live in the same one.

accupuncture is alot more accepted in science outside the USA. also in Europe, my normal Doctor send me to accupuncture for my back.
i was very sceptical, i doubt it to work. but it worked very well.
also there are scientists that are trying to prove that its more than just a placebo effect.

[Skeptic Guy]

What makes you think there is a job anywhere in the world where you will not have to put up with coworkers' wierd ideas about the nature of reality?

But in this case, it could cost someone their life.

accupuncture is alot more accepted in science outside the USA. also in Europe, my normal Doctor send me to accupuncture for my back.
i was very sceptical, i doubt it to work. but it worked very well.
also there are scientists that are trying to prove that its more than just a placebo effect.

No, it's not any more accepted in science outside of the US. It may be practiced more outside of the US. I don't have any data for Europe, but having lived in Singapore, I know that it is practiced a lot there. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people trying to prove that it's more than just a placebo effect, but so far they have come up short.

Also, you might look up "self-limiting disease".

[DC]

But in this case, it could cost someone their life.



No, it's not any more accepted in science outside of the US. It may be practiced more outside of the US. I don't have any data for Europe, but having lived in Singapore, I know that it is practiced a lot there. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people trying to prove that it's more than just a placebo effect, but so far they have come up short.

Also, you might look up "self-limiting disease".

Acupuncture is still considered an alternative treatment for low back pain in the U.S., but this is no longer the case in Germany. Based on findings from the newly reported study, it is now covered by state health insurance.

http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/news/20070924/study-acupuncture-eases-low-back-pain

same for switzerland for example

[borealys]

What makes you think there is a job anywhere in the world where you will not have to put up with coworkers' wierd ideas about the nature of reality?

That's not the issue here, Ivor. If I were to find out that some of my colleagues believed in telepathy, or bigfoot, or chemtrails, I wouldn't particularly care. I'd respect them less overall, but I wouldn't consider it worth getting upset about.

This is different. We are health care professionals. We are recognized experts in developmental disorders. Families with no background in science or medicine, who haven't necessarily got the tools to evaluate the value of one therapy technique over another, will ask for, and follow, our advice. Because we're supposed to know about these things.

Even if a particular therapy isn't physically dangerous, it can lead to problems if it leads the family to reduce, postpone, or forgo effective therapy for their child's developmental disorder due to limits of money or time. When it comes to child development, early intervention matters.

It isn't about my coworkers. It's about my clients and the trust they put in me. It's about my ethical responsibilities as a professional.

[Physiotherapist]

http://www.dryneedling.com.au/what-is-dry-needling/

Interesting spelling error here- unless there really is such a thing as a hyperdermic syringe.

Many physiotherapists with very mainstream qualifications and great experience accept the use of solid needles to release muscle spasm by mechanically stimulating trigger points. As they use available accupuncture needles, they often refer to the practice as "accupuncture".

For that matter, I'm unsure how sound the evidence is for trigger points in the first place.


A lot of my physio colleagues use dry needling for the purposes of releasing Trigger Points. I don't however, as I use other soft tissue techniques, so when I find these so called 'hot spots' within the muscles, I release them with thumbs, at times knuckles and on one client recently, I used elbow tips, as the TrP's were so deep within the muscle tissue. Once the TrP's have been released, the muscle can then be lengthened more effectively.

Travell and Simons have written two volumes on Trigger Points and most of their professional lives have been devoted to research on the topic of pain. Janet Travell MD was personal physician to John F Kennedy and her interest in pain started because JFK had chronic back pain. In trying to find ways of helping him, she started investigating chronic pain generally and her observations led her to these painful areas within the bellies of muscles, that when pressed upon elicit severe pain, not just at the site itself, but with a referral pattern to another area of the body - (known as an active trigger point). I think she experimented in treating them with novocaine injections, which is perhaps one of the reasons that physiotherapists use dry needling to release trigger points. Others who do sports massage etc and also physical therapy, use hands and knuckles to achieve the same results, i.e., de-activating TrP's and then lengthening the muscle/muscles concerned and involved.