Psychic Samurai applies for MDC...apparently...

[Chris H]

No doubt you've all seen references on this forum to the recent threads over at The Magic Cafe regarding this fellow and his claims that he will apply for the JREF challenge. I'm a regular poster on that board, and thought you would all like to know that Psychic Samurai is now claiming to have applied for the challenge.

This is my first post here, and I understand I'm not permitted to post external links, but anyone who is interested can visit The Magic Cafe dot com, and then proceed to the 'Stand The Test' forum to find the topic entitled "SLIM KING ACCEPTS RANDI'S MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE! !!!!", where you can read all about it.

Hopefully the crew at the JREF can provide more details regarding his claim and the preliminary test once his application arrives.

[Garrette]

Here's the link: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=270805&forum=251&70&start=60#9

[Chris H]

Thanks Garrette.

Love your work.

Chris

[Moochie]

Oh my.

M.

[Chris H]

Now things are really starting to get interesting...

David Koenig/Psychic Samurai/The Professor Slim King (from now on, I'll just call him Slim) appeared on August 3rd on an internet radio show called 'The Ghostman and Demon Hunter'. Their podcasts are available on iTunes. Just search for Ghostman and Demon Hunter in your podcast directory. During this show, he made a (very loose) prediction...

"I predict that in the very, very near future, that someone is going to have like a deathbed confession, and they are going to confess that during May 18th, probably 19th, the day after Mt Saint Helen's erupted, that they found a Sasquatch."

What he neglected to mention is that the recent "bigfoot" discovery was public knowledge about 2 weeks before his appearance on August 3rd, and a post on the JREF forum by "tube" entitled 'Bigfoot Body in Georgia!' on July 23rd confirms this.

He also neglects to mention that he has acknowledged on The Magic Cafe that he visited the JREF forum only three days after this post was made.

Slim has been promoting his August 17th appearance on the 'Ghostman and Demon Hunter' show quite heavily over at The Magic Cafe, so I thought it only fair that I drop the boys a line and fill them in on the somewhat suspicious piece of information. As predicted (Hey! I must be psychic too!), my e-mail had very little impact on the show and the hosts raving reviews regarding Slims performance and prediction. When asked about the prediction and the people who have sent in e-mails saying that this information was made public two weeks earlier, Slim responds with...

(Around 12 minutes in)
"They've accused me of taking this off some little, tiny blog somewhere."


I can only presume he is referring to the little, tiny JREF forum.

It gets better...

The August 17 Podcast of 'The Ghostman and Demon Hunter Show' is now online. Hopefully Garette will be kind enough to post the link for me again. In this podcast, Slim King has stated that he will be taking the one million dollar challenge. Interestingly enough, although the JREF has made no public announcement regarding this test, Mr. Koenig has announced the dates, location, and details of the test in this radio show.

(At 12 minutes and 40 seconds)
"I David Koenig will contact a paranormal entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked, and answered. This communication will be recorded with instrumental trans communication, and electronic voice phenomenon (ITC and EVP) methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact, in addition to still photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify any unusual presences at the location.

This demonstration will take place 10-31-2008 at Lake Helen, Florida. I will make contact on that date as a preliminary test, and then again on 10-31-2009 to complete the million dollar challenge, unless the JREF would like to forgo the preliminary test and go straight to the challenge on 10-31-2008. I would prefer to go straight to the million dollar challenge, and not waste any time."

Does the JREF have any details of this so far?

Cheers,

Chris

[arthwollipot]

:popcorn1

[William Smith]

Now things are really starting to get interesting...

David Koenig/Psychic Samurai/The Professor Slim King (from now on, I'll just call him Slim) appeared on August 3rd on an internet radio show called 'The Ghostman and Demon Hunter'. Their podcasts are available on iTunes. Just search for Ghostman and Demon Hunter in your podcast directory. During this show, he made a (very loose) prediction...

"I predict that in the very, very near future, that someone is going to have like a deathbed confession, and they are going to confess that during May 18th, probably 19th, the day after Mt Saint Helen's erupted, that they found a Sasquatch."

What he neglected to mention is that the recent "bigfoot" discovery was public knowledge about 2 weeks before his appearance on August 3rd, and a post on the JREF forum by "tube" entitled 'Bigfoot Body in Georgia!' on July 23rd confirms this.

He also neglects to mention that he has acknowledged on The Magic Cafe that he visited the JREF forum only three days after this post was made.

Slim has been promoting his August 17th appearance on the 'Ghostman and Demon Hunter' show quite heavily over at The Magic Cafe, so I thought it only fair that I drop the boys a line and fill them in on the somewhat suspicious piece of information. As predicted (Hey! I must be psychic too!), my e-mail had very little impact on the show and the hosts raving reviews regarding Slims performance and prediction. When asked about the prediction and the people who have sent in e-mails saying that this information was made public two weeks earlier, Slim responds with...

(Around 12 minutes in)
"They've accused me of taking this off some little, tiny blog somewhere."


I can only presume he is referring to the little, tiny JREF forum.

It gets better...

The August 17 Podcast of 'The Ghostman and Demon Hunter Show' is now online. Hopefully Garette will be kind enough to post the link for me again. In this podcast, Slim King has stated that he will be taking the one million dollar challenge. Interestingly enough, although the JREF has made no public announcement regarding this test, Mr. Koenig has announced the dates, location, and details of the test in this radio show.

(At 12 minutes and 40 seconds)
"I David Koenig will contact a paranormal entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked, and answered. This communication will be recorded with instrumental trans communication, and electronic voice phenomenon (ITC and EVP) methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact, in addition to still photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify any unusual presences at the location.

This demonstration will take place 10-31-2008 at Lake Helen, Florida. I will make contact on that date as a preliminary test, and then again on 10-31-2009 to complete the million dollar challenge, unless the JREF would like to forgo the preliminary test and go straight to the challenge on 10-31-2008. I would prefer to go straight to the million dollar challenge, and not waste any time."

Does the JREF have any details of this so far?

Cheers,

Chris

Experience suggests - strongly, I might add - that none of these events Koenig names will happen.

Not only does he not seem to understand the JREF Challenge Rules which clearly state that "paranormal entities" e.g. angels, demons, fairies do not qualify for claims because the test results are not falsifiable.

Also, the wording and the presentation have self-promotion written all over it. I won't even bother dissecting the statement you quoted for obvious gobbledygook.

Pass the popcorn, Art.

[Lothian]

This demonstration will take place 10-31-2008 at Lake Helen, Florida. I will make contact on that date as a preliminary test, and then again on 10-31-2009 to complete the million dollar challenge, unless the JREF would like to forgo the preliminary test and go straight to the challenge on 10-31-2008. I would prefer to go straight to the million dollar challenge, and not waste any time."[/I]Doesn't sound like any agreement has been made, rather he will be performing and the JREF are welcome to watch.

[Azrael 5]

Experience suggests - strongly, I might add - that none of these events Koenig names will happen.

Not only does he not seem to understand the JREF Challenge Rules which clearly state that "paranormal entities" e.g. angels, demons, fairies do not qualify for claims because the test results are not falsifiable.

Also, the wording and the presentation have self-promotion written all over it. I won't even bother dissecting the statement you quoted for obvious gobbledygook.

Pass the popcorn, Art.

Assuming he can record them I guess he'll be within the rules. ;)

[Garrette]

Here's the link (http://ghostanddemon.podomatic.com/).

Guerilla Magic has informed me he has been banned for two weeks (therefore actually suspended?) from the Magic Cafe. I can find no reference to it on the site, but I don't know if they give any. I speculate the reason he has been suspended is his informing the Ghost and Demon Hunters show about the reasons Slim's "prediction" regarding Bigfoot cannot really be considered evidence of the paranormal.

Several posters there have excoriated GuerillaMagic for doing this, and at least one said he reported him for it.

I'm about to chime in my support for him over there, but I need to compose it after doing a little more research.

[Garrette]

Thanks Garrette.

Love your work.

ChrisThanks. I respected yours, too, and didn't mean to become the most vocal skeptic in those threads, but you seemed greatly outnumbered and it just sort of happened.

[Chris H]

If you need any help Garette, you know where to find me.

Cheers mate.

Chris

[Chris H]

Experience suggests - strongly, I might add - that none of these events Koenig names will happen.

Not only does he not seem to understand the JREF Challenge Rules which clearly state that "paranormal entities" e.g. angels, demons, fairies do not qualify for claims because the test results are not falsifiable.

Also, the wording and the presentation have self-promotion written all over it. I won't even bother dissecting the statement you quoted for obvious gobbledygook.

Pass the popcorn, Art.

I agree. But I figured you guys would all like to know about this, nonetheless. The presentation screams publicity stunt, and I agree with Lothian that this seems more like an invite to watch something that has already been planned, not a genuine attempt at taking the challenge.

Not only that, he has stated that the challenge will take place over the course of twelve months. This is before the JREF have even acknowledged receipt of his application, let alone determined the testing procedure.

Koenig is a friend of Jim Callahans. There is a photo on Callahans website of Koenig, apparently about to post his application, which again, I'll have to ask Garette to post the link to.

Come November 1st, my bet is that Koenig and Callahan will scream foul, and attempt to tell the world that the JREF ran from them. As you can see, unlike these boys, I'm happy to put my predictions in print before the event actually occurs.

I can see it all already...

If he never actually sent in the application - "The JREF lied about receiving it, and THEY RAN FROM MY CHALLENGE!!".

If he actually sent in his application, and the JREF ignore it - "The JREF received my application, and they were too scared. THEY RAN FROM MY CHALLENGE!!"

If he actually sent in his application, and the JREF publicly state that they're not interested - "Ha! They're scared of me! THEY RAN FROM MY CHALLENGE!!"

We've seen it all before...

Cheers,

Chris

[Bob Klase]

Koenig is a friend of Jim Callahans. There is a photo on Callahans website of Koenig, apparently about to post his application, which again, I'll have to ask Garette to post the link to.

Photo is here:

http://www.jimclass.com/RadioESP.htm

[Moochie]

Looks to me like Slim's just trying to get more deeply into the "woo economy"; he's evidently a minor, peripheral player in the mentalist show circuit and figures woo is where the real money's at, hence the announcement regarding the MDC. Oh, he mentions that he's about to get married, so that's a good reason for wanting to make a bit more of the green stuff, too.

M.

[Azrael 5]

Here's the link (http://ghostanddemon.podomatic.com/).

Guerilla Magic has informed me he has been banned for two weeks (therefore actually suspended?) from the Magic Cafe. I can find no reference to it on the site, but I don't know if they give any. I speculate the reason he has been suspended is his informing the Ghost and Demon Hunters show about the reasons Slim's "prediction" regarding Bigfoot cannot really be considered evidence of the paranormal.

Several posters there have excoriated GuerillaMagic for doing this, and at least one said he reported him for it.

I'm about to chime in my support for him over there, but I need to compose it after doing a little more research.

Maybe you can add to my thread I've created Garette,assuming it stays.;)
It's in Stand The Test sub forum.I await my inevitable ban.

[DJM]

I asked Slim to join this thread, he's already a member here. We'll see what happens.

[William Smith]

I asked Slim to join this thread, he's already a member here. We'll see what happens.

Slim, if you are reading this, the JREF Forum members do not speak for the JREF.

Exceptions are two JREF Staffers who post here regularly: GM Jeff Wagg and Research Assistant RemieV.

If you wish to contact the JREF directly I recommend challenge@randi.org.

[Azrael 5]

Oh well that thread didn't last long.
A bit like Slims claim to be paranormal. ;)

[Garrette]

Hmmm. I can't post support for GuerrillaMagic, either. They do not allow discussion of moderator actions.

They apply that standard fairly, though, so I don't have a complaint.

[Azrael 5]

Yet, as I pointed out to the moderator ,Luke Jermay's actions(for those who know them) go un-disciplined.

So I do notice a certain bias.

Why does my use of "moderator" get highlighted yet it doesn't in Garette's post. Odd.

[Chris H]

Thanks for the support guys. Like I said in my post before I got banned, I wouldn't ever expose a magician and his methods in a malicious manner. But Slim has said himself that the MDC has nothing to to with his magic/mentalism (it's the last post of the "Slim accepts Challenge" thread, before it got locked). If that's the way he wants to play it, then fair enough. But that means that the discussion has no place on a magic forum, and he is fair game for the debunkers. If he wishes to drum up support and let everyone know what he is doing, he should post in the "Not very magical, but still..." sub forum. But we all know that forum doesn't cause nearly as much controversy and debate. If it went any further, I had intended to point Slim's post out to the Cafe. "My million dollar challenge application has nothing to do with my mentalism. Get it?!", or something along those lines. I don't know, I can't see the thread! :-)

Any word on whether the JREF has received his application yet?

Chris

[William Smith]

...
Any word on whether the JREF has received his application yet?

Chris

When in doubt, assume they haven't. ;)

The JREF Staff only visits the forum from time to time. Only GM Jeff Wagg and Research Assistant RemieV can speak for the JREF. All the others may have contacts, inside knowledge, etc. but nothing official.

If you want an official answer: challenge@randi.org

[Piggy]

Here's the link: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=270805&forum=251&70&start=60#9

I read down thru that thread, and....

Am I missing something, or were members of that forum trashing Topher because he exposed a hoax?

It seems like they accept an attempt at fraud as a "performance" and are attacking someone for understanding the boundaries between a stage act and real life.

[chillzero]

Excuse me - is there a discussion of a challenge to be held here, or shall I move this to Community for you to discuss this other forum?

[Garrette]

I read down thru that thread, and....

Am I missing something, or were members of that forum trashing Topher because he exposed a hoax?

It seems like they accept an attempt at fraud as a "performance" and are attacking someone for understanding the boundaries between a stage act and real life.I tend to agree. I'm still formulating a response that addresses this without addressing the banning so that I do not get banned myself (I've been politely warned about a related post which got edited).

Excuse me - is there a discussion of a challenge to be held here, or shall I move this to Community for you to discuss this other forum?Until such time as the JREF receives it, I suppose this is more a Community discussion.

[Chris H]

I read down thru that thread, and....

Am I missing something, or were members of that forum trashing Topher because he exposed a hoax?

It seems like they accept an attempt at fraud as a "performance" and are attacking someone for understanding the boundaries between a stage act and real life.

Yeah, I don't seem to be very popular over there at the moment (or any moment, to be honest :) ). As you may have already read, my so called exposure got me banned from the Magic Cafe. What's interesting is that my link to the Cafe exposed nothing. It was a link to a post by Slim that acknowledged he had visited the JREF forum only days after the "Bigfoot" story had been made public here. The Magic Cafe aren't even aware which post it was, as I never made that public.

Surprisingly, I received a reply to my e-mail about my banning from the Magic Cafe from the manager Steve Brooks earlier today. I hadn't expected one.

"I banned you for 15 days for the following:
Sending links to the Café to outside media (a radio station) in order to expose the methods of another Café user."

Fair enough I suppose. Perhaps he failed to see the post where I politely pointed out in the "Slim King Accepts JREF Challenge" (or whatever it was called - see the 'Stand The Test' forum on The Magic Cafe) thread that Slim has made a clear distinction between his work as a magician, and his work as a psychic and his efforts in relation to the million dollar challenge (the last post in the same thread before it got locked). He appeared on this radio show as a psychic, not as a magician. We can only presume this based on the following information:

1. The show, 'Ghostman and Demon Hunter' is a show dedicated to the paranormal, not magic tricks.

2. He performed a "prediction" on this show, which he never said wasn't a magic trick. In fact, he took full credit for his psychic ability, the prediction and it's "accuracy".

3. During the show, he also discussed his "genuine" application for the JREF MDC.

Clearly this isn't the behavior of a magician. This is the behavior of a magician who wants everyone to think he's the real deal. I'd happily expose him again without a second thought, and next time I'll be more aggressive about it (like not warning him in advance about what's coming). But I certainly won't be talking about it on The Magic Cafe.

I have no doubt that Slim is reading this thread (Hi Slim!) and giggling with his buddies back at The Cafe about my ban. So let me say to him here what I said to him at The Cafe.

The JREF's million is safe Slim. I predict (at 1am on Wednesday August 20th - Australian time) that you will never get your hands on it.

Thanks to everyone again for their support.

All the best,

Chris

PS. Chillzero, my apologies if I have posted this in the wrong section. The intention was to discuss Slims application for the MDC, but as that hasn't seemed to have appeared at the JREF HQ, I guess it got a bit sidetracked. Again, my apologies.

[chillzero]

OK - I'll move this, and you can start a new thread in MDC when the challenge is made. I had thought this would wait for RemieV to confirm if any challenge was with the JREF, and then discuss protocols.

[The Professor]

I see that GuerrillaMagic has brought to this Forum the same LIES that got him kicked off the Magic Cafe.
The Professor Slim King is booked on ALL of his radio Shows as a MENTALIST!
In fact Scott Marlow from Pangea's World of Weird even read the Definition of a Mentalist over the radio at the top of his show with The Professor. Please look it up and download it on the net. Slim Kings (Almost two year) ongoing challenge to Criss Angel is as a MENTALIST! The radio shows he appears on ALL would like to have Criss Angel on their show too, so the assumption that they ONLY go strictly paranormal is simply another LIE. They enjoy entertainment.
Slim King has NEVER referred to himself as a Psychic. Another BIG LIE from the Gorilla.
The Professor has NEVER taken money for a reading or anything like that. All untrue.
The MDC is a challenge taken by David Koenig, who often performs as Jake Blues, Bluto, Howdy Nodat , The Professor, and Slim King.
There are several other blatant lies by GM and these are some of the reasons he was kicked off the Cafe for being a TROLL!
I hope the moderators take note of these lies and the fact that his very first post was to begin a negative campaign against an honest application to the MDC.
I hope he is kicked off or the JREF for the same reasons other sites have booted him.

Thanks to everyone for so many interesting posts even BEFORE the JREF has announced my application! I am very excited to take the test and I hope everyone will help me to dot the "I"'s and cross the "t"s. I know everyone here would be stoked if we could make a connection.

I do have one question that I would like to ask a little later.
Thanks
Dave Koenig

[chillzero]

I would like to ask that we keep this thread civil, and not turn to personal attacks.

The Professor, welcome to the forum. If you wish to discuss moderation issues, then please do so in the Forum Management section of the forum. If you wish to discuss your challenge, then please do so in the Million Dollar Challenge section. This thread was moved here because it was discussing interactions at a forum, and not the challenge. Threads in the MDC section are required to stay strictly on topic to the challenge.

If you believe any member has broken their Membership Agreement then you should use the Report function (little triangle with ! in it - bottom left of every post) to report them. Please note, lying is not a breach of the MA.

[Folly]

Waitasec. The MDC is a paranormal challenge. If you say you're not doing something paranormal, and you're a performing artist, then... you've basically just said you're not really eligible to appy, because you have no paranormal claim.

I agree with Arthwollipot: :popcorn1

[Czarcasm]

I see that GuerrillaMagic has brought to this Forum the same LIES that got him kicked off the Magic Cafe.
The Professor Slim King is booked on ALL of his radio Shows as a MENTALIST!
In fact Scott Marlow from Pangea's World of Weird even read the Definition of a Mentalist over the radio at the top of his show with The Professor. Please look it up and download it on the net. Slim Kings (Almost two year) ongoing challenge to Criss Angel is as a MENTALIST! The radio shows he appears on ALL would like to have Criss Angel on their show too, so the assumption that they ONLY go strictly paranormal is simply another LIE. They enjoy entertainment.
Slim King has NEVER referred to himself as a Psychic. Another BIG LIE from the Gorilla.
The Professor has NEVER taken money for a reading or anything like that. All untrue.
The MDC is a challenge taken by David Koenig, who often performs as Jake Blues, Bluto, Howdy Nodat , The Professor, and Slim King.
There are several other blatant lies by GM and these are some of the reasons he was kicked off the Cafe for being a TROLL!
I hope the moderators take note of these lies and the fact that his very first post was to begin a negative campaign against an honest application to the MDC.
I hope he is kicked off or the JREF for the same reasons other sites have booted him.

Thanks to everyone for so many interesting posts even BEFORE the JREF has announced my application! I am very excited to take the test and I hope everyone will help me to dot the "I"'s and cross the "t"s. I know everyone here would be stoked if we could make a connection.

I do have one question that I would like to ask a little later.
Thanks
Dave Koenig

Let's start at the beginning.
What precisely is the psychic ability you possess that you think will enable you to qualify for the MDC?

[DJM]

The Professor, I think people would start taking you a bit more seriously if you stopped speaking in the third person all the time.

Just a friendly advice. :)

[The Professor]

Waitasec. The MDC is a paranormal challenge. If you say you're not doing something paranormal, and you're a performing artist, then... you've basically just said you're not really eligible to appy, because you have no paranormal claim.

I agree with Arthwollipot: :popcorn1

It is funny how many people ASSUME they know what my application says.
Remember what your Mother and Father said what you become when you ASSUME things:)

I have been a Performing Artist since I was 16. Does that mean I can NEVER take the Challenge. So anyone who has ever been a performing artist is forbidden from applying? WOW! That's not right!
So that would mean that Randi himself would not be eligible to take the challenge even if he developed the most astounding Paranormal Powers. Strange!

My apologies to the Moderator. I wasn't aware that everyone gets to LIE on here. My fault. :cool: :cool:

[chillzero]

My apologies to the Moderator. I wasn't aware that everyone gets to LIE on here. My fault. :cool: :cool:

I already made it clear what to discuss where.

The advice about lying was not for you to create some strawman from, but rather to prevent you from abusing the report function by reporting posts that are not a breach of the MA.

Any further discussion of this should be taken to the Forum Mgt section.
If you are going to discuss an actual challenge, take it to the MDC. I thought my mod box was pretty clear on all this.

[Pantaz]

I have been a Performing Artist since I was 16. Does that mean I can NEVER take the Challenge. So anyone who has ever been a performing artist is forbidden from applying? WOW! That's not right!
I do not see where anyone has said you may not apply. From the tone of your posts, you just appear to be looking for an argument.

If you do intend to apply for the Challenge, please read the following documents:

The JREF Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge "FAQ"
http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/47/37/

Challenge Rules and Guidelines
http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/40/32/

Challenge Application Form
http://www.randi.org/research/Challenge_Application.pdf

[Marquis de Carabas]

My apologies to the Moderator. I wasn't aware that everyone gets to LIE on here. My fault. :cool: :cool:
So glad you could join us.

[The Professor]

Please forgive me. I wasn't aware that I'd even used the report function rather than abused it. My Bad if I did.
What can I discuss here? Can I respond to Czarcasm's question?
Thanks
Dave

[The Professor]

[QUOTE=Pantaz;3959822]I do not see where anyone has said you may not apply. From the tone of your posts, you just appear to be looking for an argument.

If you do intend to apply for the Challenge, please read the following documents:

Thanks for the help.
I have read all of the above (Had to remove the links since I'm a newbie) and honestly tried to meet all of the qualifications. I actually sent the JREF my notarized application last week (Certified mail), and even called and emailed them but as of right now I don't see them posting anything about it.
As you can see the thread started without me around with many assumptions being made and people are jumping to conclusions with little or no facts. Amazing.

[IMST]

Let's start at the beginning.
What precisely is the psychic ability you possess that you think will enable you to qualify for the MDC?

Quoted for relevance. What is your ablility The Professor?

[The Professor]

Now the Mod's got me all Freaked Out :confused: I don't want to offend anyone or break the rules.
I'm not sure what to say now. You can hear it on The Ghostman and Demon Hunter Show but I can't post the link yet. I think you can google it though. I also think it's been posted by someone else on this thread already.
Why doesn't the JREF post it?
I would like to have an OFFICIAL posting so no one takes things out of context.
Wouldn't that be best?

[IMST]

The Professor
New Blood


Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 16
^
|
You can now post links.

[William Smith]

Slim, if you are reading this, the JREF Forum members do not speak for the JREF.

Exceptions are two JREF Staffers who post here regularly: GM Jeff Wagg and Research Assistant RemieV.

If you wish to contact the JREF directly I recommend challenge@randi.org.

...
Why doesn't the JREF post it?
I would like to have an OFFICIAL posting so no one takes things out of context.
Wouldn't that be best?

:rolleyes:

[Moochie]

Hmm...

Nope, I can't change my earlier assessment.


M.

[The Professor]

Here is the link to the actual show!
http://ghostanddemon.podomatic.com/
I am at the very beginning of the Show.
In keeping with the Challenges rules it is my obligation to build my Media Presence so I have been doing Radio Shows. I will be getting Married this weekend and I'll be on Honeymoon for a couple of weeks, so it is very important for me to make sure I don't get swept under the rug while I'm away.
Thanks for your interest and support. I'm very excited to take the Challenge!

[Biscuit]

[QUOTE=Pantaz;3959822]
I have read all of the above (Had to remove the links since I'm a newbie) and honestly tried to meet all of the qualifications. I actually sent the JREF my notarized application last week (Certified mail), and even called and emailed them but as of right now I don't see them posting anything about it.
As you can see the thread started without me around with many assumptions being made and people are jumping to conclusions with little or no facts. Amazing.


So then you saw the part that say "paranormal entities" do not qualify for the MDC? Why after reading that why would make your application about contacting paranormal entities?

If you were just confused than you should admit that now and either publicly withdraw your application as it does not meet the rules or you should re-work your application so that the paranormal phenomenon fits the MDC challenge rules. Doing anything else makes you seem very suspect.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and await your complete answer to my post as I think that would clear up a lot of what the others in this thread are asking.

One last question if I may - Do you claim to have paranormal abilities and if so what are they?

Thanks and have a great honeymoon.

[Jackalgirl]

Howdy and welcome to the Forum, TP --

I just would like to echo everyone else who's asked you about your paranormal abilities -- or whatever it is that's paranormal that you're going to demonstrate. I'm particularly interested in the development of test protocols, so I'm really looking forward to that part of the process (if it ever gets to that).

I am, of course, concerned about the alleged report -- so far -- that your claim involves paranormal entities. I quote from the Application (http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/), which you signed and notarized (indicating your understanding and acceptance of all of the stipulations of the Application):

IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. Also, JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices.

Is it true that your claim involves paranormal entities? If so, how do you plan to demonstrate their existance in a completely objective, testable way?

Part of the report on what you plan to demonstrate, for example, refers to "EVP". To the best of my understanding, this is like backwards masking -- a person has to pick a pattern out of noise. The problem with this is that it's highly subjective unless it's absolutely, totally clear -- if, for example, you have to explain to someone that they'll hear a specific phrase and they can't hear it until you do, it just means that someone is picking out the pattern they've been told to do (and for which we are all hardwired to do).

Which leads to the next problem: if it's true that you plan to use EVP during your demonstration, and even if there is a sound on the tape, how do you intend to demonstrate that it belongs to a paranormal entity? These are the problems with those kinds of "proofs" that lead to their being untestable.

So you've got to pick something that is objectively verifiable, something that requires no judgement or interpretation. Another quote from the Application (http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/):

All tests must be designed in such a way that the results are self-evident, so that no judging or voting process is required.

Does your intended demonstration achieve all that?

Lastly, I understand that you announced that the demonstration will take place at a certain date and a certain time. Is this true? From another of your posts (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3959856&postcount=39), it seems that all that has happened is that you've sent in the notarized application, and called to confirm that it has been received. If that is true (please correct me if I'm wrong), you do understand that there is a lot more to the process, right? If they accept your application, it does not mean that they accept the protocol you describe in the application as is. The next step is to ensure that the demonstration is mutually agreeable. Again, I quote from the Application (http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/):

Applicant must state clearly what is being claimed as the special ability upon which they wish to be tested, and test protocols must be agreed upon by both parties before any testing will take place.

This (usually) requires a lot of negotiation in order to make sure that both sides understand completely what's required, and both are in compete agreement as to how it will go, what constitutes success, and what constitutes failure.

What I'm getting at is that if it is true that you announced a date for the demonstration before you sent in the application, then you are a) a bit premature and b) showing that you do not understand how the Challenge works which means that you c) did not really read the Application.

So I am concerned -- because (and I am honestly not being facetious here) I really like to see applications actually make it to the testing stage and want to see yours make it there, but the chances of that happen are greately diminished if you do not understand what the Challenge is about and therefore try to make a claim that is outside the scope of the Challenge.

A note about moderation: if you read your Membership Agreement (http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/136/87%20/) and hold to it, you'll be fine. You can respond to people -- just be measured and civil about it. If someone says something that is inaccurate about you, for example, simply point out that it is inaccurate, and how it is inaccurate. No name-calling is necessary. You might get infracted a couple of times as you get to learn the rules, but it's no biggie. Everyone's gotta adjust. And there's always an appeals system if you think you were unfairly modded. Banning is a last resort, and usually occurs because someone has willfully and repeatedly broken the rules. Or because they created a sock puppet. Don't do that. ; )

[The Professor]

Thanks Jackalgirl!
It seems that until the JREF releases the application all of you will just be wondering, guessing and assuming. I do know that several of you have made mistakes already as to the nature of the challenge.
Quote

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

Not one person here has mentioned "EVENT".
Some events can only occur at certain times and places.
This EVENT can only happen once per year historically. Maybe at other times but not with the certainty that the challenge demands.
As far as my involvement it must happen at one specific PLACE.
The test must incorporate the time and place. It's extremely easy to do.
My Powers, if you call them that, are the catalyst for the event.
If you listen to the Link I provided it will answer many questions.

Azrael 5 says
Assuming he can record them I guess he'll be within the rules.

Now that's the general idea!

[RemieV]

How very interesting... I'd like to thank Terry for pointing out this thread to me.

The first I ever heard of David Koenig was today, August 19th at 8:42am when he e-mailed with this:

JREF
Did you receive my application for the JREF Million Dollar Challenge? It was mailed last week on Thursday and the US Post Office said you would get it probably on Saturday since we are so close in proximity and major cities. I went to the extra expense to send it certified mail to insure that you will get it in a prompt manner. The academic's letters should be arriving shortly if they aren't there already. They have also offered to email their support if that would be more efficient. I am doing everything I can to expedite the process and make it as easy and smooth as possible.
Thanks
David Koenig

I responded with the following:



David Koenig,

Thank you for your interest in the James Randi Educational Foundation's Million Dollar Challenge.

I have not yet received your application - but I am not on-site at the JREF. The application will be forwarded to me when it is complete, and protocol negotiations can begin.

Please keep in mind even then that you are one of many applicants, and do not expect daily updates regarding your application.

If you have sent the following, you will be contacted:

- Signed, notarized application
- Affidavits from academics
- Proof of Media Presence
- Two paragraph summary of claim

Thank you again for your interest


To which he responded:


I sent a Signed Notarized Application along with the Two Paragraphs of Claim Summary. The Academics have been given your contact information and here are a few links as to my Media Presence.
http://ghostanddemon.podomatic.com/
http://shadowsinthedarkradio.com/shows/2008/07/31.html
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/pangeaworldofweird/2008/07/31/TBD
http://professorslimking.com/
http://www.myspace.com/professorslimking

Thanks
Dave Koenig

To which I responded, moments ago....

Mr. Koenig,

Thank you for your continued interest.

Protocol negotiations will not begin until we have received your academic affidavits. May I suggest you collect them yourself?

Also, I have just read on the JREF Forum that you are already telling people - in interviews and on forums - that you have made arrangements to take the preliminary Challenge. I must ask you to refrain from continuing that behaviour at least until it is true. We have not received your full application, and also have not agreed to any kind of testing protocol as of yet.

Please visit the sites where you have made these claims and retract them.

Thank you again.

[Chris H]

The Professor Slim King is booked on ALL of his radio Shows as a MENTALIST!


If that's the case, then I expect your media presence as a "mentalist" won't be sufficient for the JREF MDC. Theoretically, if the JREF accepted someone performing mentalist tricks on the radio as "media presence", that would make Derren Brown, or even David Copperfield an acceptable applicant.


Slim King has NEVER referred to himself as a Psychic. Another BIG LIE from the Gorilla.


If memory serves, I recall posting that we can presume your appearances were as a psychic, based on the following evidence.


He appeared on this radio show as a psychic, not as a magician. We can only presume this based on the following information:

1. The show, 'Ghostman and Demon Hunter' is a show dedicated to the paranormal, not magic tricks.

2. He performed a "prediction" on this show, which he never said wasn't a magic trick. In fact, he took full credit for his psychic ability, the prediction and it's "accuracy".

3. During the show, he also discussed his "genuine" application for the JREF MDC.




The Professor has NEVER taken money for a reading or anything like that. All untrue.


Don't recall posting that. Would love to be reminded of it if I did.


I hope the moderators take note of these lies and the fact that his very first post was to begin a negative campaign against an honest application to the MDC.


Negative campaign? Hardly. I informed the board members of a supposed application, and your announcement of the challenge details before the JREF have acknowledged you application. Your claim is more relevant to the discussion here than it is on The Magic Cafe.

No doubt you've all seen references on this forum to the recent threads over at The Magic Cafe regarding this fellow and his claims that he will apply for the JREF challenge. I'm a regular poster on that board, and thought you would all like to know that Psychic Samurai is now claiming to have applied for the challenge.

This is my first post here, and I understand I'm not permitted to post external links, but anyone who is interested can visit The Magic Cafe dot com, and then proceed to the 'Stand The Test' forum to find the topic entitled "SLIM KING ACCEPTS RANDI'S MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE! !!!!", where you can read all about it.

Hopefully the crew at the JREF can provide more details regarding his claim and the preliminary test once his application arrives.

I wish you all the best with your challenge application David, in all sincerity.

Regards,

Chris

[Bob Klase]

Disregard- I listened to the wrong (Aug 3) show, so what I'd original written here wouldn't apply to this thread.

[Czarcasm]

Thanks Jackalgirl!
It seems that until the JREF releases the application all of you will just be wondering, guessing and assuming. I do know that several of you have made mistakes already as to the nature of the challenge.
Quote

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

Not one person here has mentioned "EVENT".
Some events can only occur at certain times and places.
This EVENT can only happen once per year historically. Maybe at other times but not with the certainty that the challenge demands.
As far as my involvement it must happen at one specific PLACE.
The test must incorporate the time and place. It's extremely easy to do.
My Powers, if you call them that, are the catalyst for the event.
If you listen to the Link I provided it will answer many questions.

Azrael 5 says
Assuming he can record them I guess he'll be within the rules.

Now that's the general idea!
You are allowed to discuss the particulars of your claim in this thread, and I'd rather you gave it to us straight, here, rather than force us listen to a podcast where you pontificate, boast, and cast aspersions on both Mr. Randi and the MDC itself.

[Jackalgirl]

Howdy!

Thanks Jackalgirl!
It seems that until the JREF releases the application all of you will just be wondering, guessing and assuming. I do know that several of you have made mistakes already as to the nature of the challenge.

As Czarcasm points out, there's nothing to stop you from posting information here. You're not sworn to secrecy, that is. I just double-checked the application and there is nothing in there that forbids you from quoting from, or even posting all of, your application here. So please do let us know the details -- but please be concise. That way, we won't be wondering, guessing or (worse) assuming.

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

Not one person here has mentioned "EVENT".
Some events can only occur at certain times and places.
This EVENT can only happen once per year historically. Maybe at other times but not with the certainty that the challenge demands.
As far as my involvement it must happen at one specific PLACE.
The test must incorporate the time and place. It's extremely easy to do.

Okay, granted that -- what event, and what place? How is the event paranormal, and how will you demonstrate that this is so?



My Powers, if you call them that, are the catalyst for the event.
If you listen to the Link I provided it will answer many questions.

I think it would be much more efficient (and helpful) if you'd just state what your related ability is without making us listen to 118 minutes of a show. Surely you can provide a brief summary?

Is your ability paranormal or normal? Is the event paranormal or normal? Does it truly involve a "paranormal entity"? If so, how do you intend to demonstrate this in such a way that requires no judgement or interpretation? If not, what do you intend to demonstrate?

Edited to add: I just wanted to state that I get the gist of what you're saying about "paranormal events". You do not actually have to possess any paranormal abilities or "powers" to apply for the MDC*, so if you're saying that you don't, that is totally cool. You do have to demonstrate that something paranormal has occured, though, and that's what I'm interested in.

*For an example of this, check out PeaceCrusader's thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=73877). His claim was that a lady he knows can predict the future. He has no paranormal abilities, but wanted to apply by stating that he could predict the future via this lady, and the word from JREF was that this was totally fine. Unfortunately for him, the lady refused to participate.

[jimtron]

IMHO, you guys are wasting your time talking to Slim about the MDC. My psychic prediction is that he'll argue in circles and never really apply for the challenge, but perhaps I'll be proved wrong. Slim seems to be friendly with and somewhat similar to Jim Callahan; they are both prolific posters at the Magic Café. As many of you may know, self styled paranormalist Callahan has several of his own challenges (http://www.jimclass.com/Challange.htm), including his own million dollar one aimed at Randi (http://www.jimclass.com/Bid_for_$1,000,000.00.htm), but good luck figuring out how they work. Both he and Slim and others at the Café are harsh critics of Randi--maybe one of them can really take the challenge and prove us skeptics wrong. Or perhaps they can forget about Randi and demonstrate their abilities elsewhere, but in a way that eliminates the possibility of magician's tricks etc. I welcome that.

Below is a quote from a JREF forum post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3141054&postcount=6) on another thread referring to discussions I was involved with at the Café. My time there was an exercise in banging my head against a wall.

Magic Café threads I've unfortunately wasted time on:

Palmistry is scientifc (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=131560&forum=15&start=0)

This thread (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=147613&forum=15&start=0) involves Jim Callahan (when he was posting as J ack (sic) Galloway), as well as prolific author of woo, (including "Is Your Pet Psychic?" and "Cold Reading for Profit") Richard Webster. I ask Webster what role cold reading plays in psychic readings. Webster and psychics in general are defended; mentalist Ian Rowland is accused of being an unethical exposer of secrets--he weighs in late in the thread.

Another thread (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=113599&forum=15) that asks if Rowland's book on cold reading is exposure (ie, an unethical revealing of secrets). The book is called "vile and inhumane" in one post.

A thread (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=138999&forum=15&start=30)where remote viewing is defended as real, with appearances by Jim Callahan (aka J ack Galloway).

Getting paid to do "readings" using cold reading techniques (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=134160&forum=15)

Here Callahan (Galloway) "explains" his $25K Randi challenge (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=105421&forum=15)

[Bob Klase]

You are allowed to discuss the particulars of your claim in this thread, and I'd rather you gave it to us straight, here, rather than force us listen to a podcast where you pontificate, boast, and cast aspersions on both Mr. Randi and the MDC itself.


I made the sacrifice and listened to the pontificating, boasting and aspersion casting (not to mention the pre-setting of excuses to use if protocols can't be agreed on or if the challenge isn't accepted) for you. Generally it wasn't much different that the pontificating, boasting and aspersion casting made by many others claiming they'd win the million.

Here's his claim (as best as I could understand it and transcribe it from the audio).
I, David Koenig [sp?] will contact a paranormal entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked and answered. This communication will be recorded with instrumental (sounds like 'trans-communication) and electronic and electronic voice phenomenon, ITC and EVP methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact in addition to still photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify any unusual presences at the location.

This demonstration will take place 10-31-2008 at Lake Helen Florida. I will make contact on that date as a preliminary test and then again on 10-31-2009 to complete the million dollar challenge, unless the JREF would like to forego the preliminary test and go straight to the challenge on 10-31-2008. I would prefer to go straight to the million dollar challenge and not waste any time.


Big problem in finding protocols will be determine the entity is paranormal without judging. Naturally his desire to skip the preliminary won't even be considered.

A few other quotes:

In the 30 years or so he's [Randi] been running around doing this he's dodged everyone. [Garbled] him to dodge me. I want the money.

In the last 13 years that I know of he's allowed no one to actually take the official test. He has never risked the million dollars once.


Ignoring the fact that no one could pass a preliminary test.

They used the preliminary test of a lady who was trying to make a guy pee his pants. That was their test, that was their thing.


No. That was the lady's thing. She's the one that claimed she could make someone pee in their pants. So what were they supposed to test- her ability to fly?

My prediction- protocols for this challenge will never be agreed upon. The Professor will continue to make his claims about the challenge (such as the two quoted above) and try to get some publicity by claiming that Randi ran from him, or that Randi cheated, or the test is rigged.

My opinion. The Professor isn't stupid- he's read the rules and he knows that it's highly unlikely that this challenge will be accepted and virtually no chance at all that everyone will reach an agreement on protocols. He's doing it so he can use the result in future publicity and claims on future radio shows.

Nothing new to see here folks. Just us close-minded skeptics still trying to cover up all those paranormal powers and paranormal happening going on out there.

[Jackalgirl]

Thanks, Bob, for taking one for the team. ; )

TP, is this transcription of your claim accurate?

I, David Koenig [sp?] will contact a paranormal entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked and answered. This communication will be recorded with instrumental (sounds like 'trans-communication) and electronic and electronic voice phenomenon, ITC and EVP methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact in addition to still photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify any unusual presences at the location.

This demonstration will take place 10-31-2008 at Lake Helen Florida. I will make contact on that date as a preliminary test and then again on 10-31-2009 to complete the million dollar challenge, unless the JREF would like to forego the preliminary test and go straight to the challenge on 10-31-2008. I would prefer to go straight to the million dollar challenge and not waste any time.

If so, how will you demonstrate that the entity is paranormal in an objective way (requiring no judgement or interpretation)? Could you post a description of your proposed protocol (or the protocol you plan to propose)?

(BTW, the rules won't change for you, so you'll have to do both the preliminary /and/ the formal tests.)

As for the rest of what Bob said, well, that's unfortunately pretty common. I mean, people talking smack about Randi and the Challenge, and applying, and being turned down because their claims are untestable (or being accepted, but then being unable to agree to a protocol), and then talking more smack about Randi and the Challenge. Less common than people claiming that the whole test is bogus (and using that claim as an excuse to not even apply), or that the million dollars don't exist, but it does happen. I will, for the moment, assume that you are not planning to do this and that you are, in fact, sincere, and will do my (admittedly completely non-official) best to help you out. Unless, of course, it were to become clear that you are insincere, or are claiming an untestable phenomenon.

[Myriad]

Halloween, eh? What's in Lake Helen? A pumpkin patch that's unusually sincere? (The Great Pumpkin would qualify as a paranormal entity, wouldn't he/it?)

A bit of Googling reveals a fair amount of paranormal activity in Lake Helen and neighboring Cassadaga. They appear to be geared up to satisfy all your paranormal needs, in case Salem, Massachusetts is too far for you to travel.

http://www.annstevenshouse.com/packages.html

http://cassadagahotel.net/

http://www.paranormalghostsociety.org/Cassadaga%20Lake%20Helen%20Cemetery.htm

Even a more interesting fact is an urban legend called the Devil's Chair which is said to exist in this cemetery. Every year around Halloween those that are daring enough sit on it in hopes to speak to the dark prince himself. There is also a rumor that on Halloween if you sit on the chair at Midnight it will hold you from one minute. I learned this is true when my friend Melissa told me that she sat on it years ago and the chair would not release her she told me it was the most terrifying experience. Some say that the chair was put there after a younger person was killed in that area and buried so it sort of like a curse. From what I understand all it is from what I am told is a broken stone bench. There are other rumors to that if you leave a can of beer as an offering to the devil over night that in the morning the can of beer will empty as if someone drank it.

Over the years because of this chair it has led to Dark practices, Satanism, Witchcraft, and a lot of underage drinking. ...


If we're contacting Satan, verification should be feasible, in principle. There must be verifiable information that only Satan or other comparably paranormal beings would have access to. Jimmy Hoffa's precise whereabouts, for instance. The devil (so to speak) is in the details. What if the Prince of Darkness isn't in a talkative mood? It seems that answering questions or posing for snapshots might run a bit counter to his ongoing efforts to convince the world he doesn't exist. (ETA: Plus, with the U.S. election day only a few days off, he might be unusually busy, especially in Florida.)

Oh well, will await further details on the claimed paranormal event.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[The Professor]

Would it give anyone additional insight into the JREF if you found out that the JREF was "Leaking" information to members of the Forum? I'm not talking about blatantly printing personal Emails before they've even received the application, that's just too obvious. No, I'm talking about "LEAKING" information to someone here deliberately.
Would that affect how you see my challenge?

BTW... Thank you Jackalgirl ... You have proven my point. There ARE some open minded folks on this forum. I will try to give as much info as I can provided there are no LEAKS or misrepresentations of my statements.

[chillzero]

Sorry to be posting as mod again.

The thread has been restored to the MDC section. As such, you now need to keep it on topic to the challenge itself. This section particularly of all the sections in the forum is strictly moderated for topic.

The Professor, please take any such accusations to a new thread, possibly in Community, or maybe General Skepticism.

For this thread, please define your claim, and the people here will assist you in designing a protocol for your test.

(If I feel the need to return to this thread for moderation, posts may be split out instead of me continually trying to guide the discussion appropriately).

[Jackalgirl]

Would it give anyone additional insight into the JREF if you found out that the JREF was "Leaking" information to members of the Forum? I'm not talking about blatantly printing personal Emails before they've even received the application, that's just too obvious. No, I'm talking about "LEAKING" information to someone here deliberately.
Would that affect how you see my challenge?

Not really. Are you claiming that an official representative of the JREF is doing this? If so, who, to whom, and how? And what evidence do you have that this is happening?

Also, I don't think it would matter. I call your attention to Rule 4 of the Application:

4. Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the setup, the protocol, and the actual testing, may be used freely by the JREF.

In other words, no part of the process is confidential; therefore, there's nothing to leak.

Of course, this does not give JREF or any of its official representatives (to whit: Jeff Wagg and RemieV) the right to misrepresent, or outright lie about, any of the information that you have sent regarding your claim. Although I am not sure if you are claiming or implying that this is happening...are you?

Be advised that if you make this claim -- especially without evidence -- someone is bound to suggest that you are attempting to set yourself up a preemptive "out". "Someone leaked my information, therefore the test was unfair!"

I'd have to state, though, that anyone suggesting this should remember this: it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether information is "leaked", because no part of the process is confidential (according to Rule 4). Ultimately, all that matters is that a) the JREF agrees that your claim is acceptable (that is, testable), and b) that you and the JREF are in clear agreement as to what will constitute a demonstration, what will constitute success, and what will constitute failure.


BTW... Thank you Jackalgirl ... You have proven my point. There ARE some open minded folks on this forum. I will try to give as much info as I can provided there are no LEAKS or misrepresentations of my statements.

I'm sure there will be various people who will attempt to distort what you say by "selective reading", misquotation, or whatever. It always happens. However, the beauty of the Forum is that your own posted words will be here for reference. As long as you post clearly, unambiguously, and concisely, I don't think there will be any problems in the long run.

I really look forward to reading more about your claim and hope you will confirm & clarify it soon (perhaps by answering some of the questions I posted about your claim). Again, I am concerned that your claim is not testable and will be rejected by the JREF as such. The sooner your can clarify, the sooner we can (maybe) help.*

*None of us here (except for RemieV and Jeff Wagg, of course) speak for JREF. But we've been here quite a while and know the Challenge and its processes pretty well. So I am confident that we can help.

Edited to add: eerps! Sorry, Chillzero -- I posted when you posted. I'll copy this post into a new thread in the "JREF" section since TP seems to be discussing the actions of JREF employees.

[Czarcasm]

Would it give anyone additional insight into the JREF if you found out that the JREF was "Leaking" information to members of the Forum? I'm not talking about blatantly printing personal Emails before they've even received the application, that's just too obvious. No, I'm talking about "LEAKING" information to someone here deliberately.
Would that affect how you see my challenge?

BTW... Thank you Jackalgirl ... You have proven my point. There ARE some open minded folks on this forum. I will try to give as much info as I can provided there are no LEAKS or misrepresentations of my statements.
1. What do you plan to do to win the MDC?
2. Why exactly does it have to be at a specific time?
3. Why exactly does it have to be in a specific place?
4. Have you read all the conditions that apply to winning the MDC?
5. Does your particular challenge fit all of those conditions?

[Jackalgirl]

Okay, the "JREF employees may be leaking information, or perhaps this is just a hypothetical situation" thread is over here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3961656#post3961656).

[Piggy]

IMHO, you guys are wasting your time talking to Slim about the MDC. My psychic prediction is that he'll argue in circles and never really apply for the challenge, but perhaps I'll be proved wrong. Slim seems to be friendly with and somewhat similar to Jim Callahan; they are both prolific posters at the Magic Café. As many of you may know, self styled paranormalist Callahan has several of his own challenges (http://www.jimclass.com/Challange.htm), including his own million dollar one aimed at Randi (http://www.jimclass.com/Bid_for_$1,000,000.00.htm), but good luck figuring out how they work. Both he and Slim and others at the Café are harsh critics of Randi--maybe one of them can really take the challenge and prove us skeptics wrong. Or perhaps they can forget about Randi and demonstrate their abilities elsewhere, but in a way that eliminates the possibility of magician's tricks etc. I welcome that.

Yeah, my impression so far is that we are being treated to a "performance".

[e-sabbath]

Not a horribly good one, either. It's very sturm und drang, using apparent outrage to conceal a lack of content.
Shall we play a game?
http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html
Art Vandruff has written this _lovely_ page about how people attempt to assert dominance in conversations. I rather think it's applicable to this patter.

The Professor, if you wish to converse, we can converse. Do act as if you were a man of science and letters, rather than a snake oil salesman or farmyard preacher. It will get better results.

If you wish, you may re-introduce yourself, come in from the start, and we can discuss matters from a clean slate.

[The Professor]

Not a horribly good one, either. It's very sturm und drang, using apparent outrage to conceal a lack of content.
Shall we play a game?
http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html
Art Vandruff has written this _lovely_ page about how people attempt to assert dominance in conversations. I rather think it's applicable to this patter.

The Professor, if you wish to converse, we can converse. Do act as if you were a man of science and letters, rather than a snake oil salesman or farmyard preacher. It will get better results.

If you wish, you may re-introduce yourself, come in from the start, and we can discuss matters from a clean slate.

Thanks for the Name Calling ... It makes me marvel at the fairness here.
I'm not sure exactly WHAT I can say as the MODS continue to move this thread around. Where is it now?
This thread was started by YOUR Forum. After almost 30 uninformed posts (Since no one claims to have seen the application) someone from THIS Forum notifies me and informs me of the turmoil. I posted as I'd promised and pointed to my Public acceptance and submission of my Application. Someone even provided a picture as evidence, knowing I'd be called a liar. They were right. But it is the truth.
So now can I talk about the test? My claims? People posting private emails, or information leaks?
I'm not the one moving this thread around.
I have Honestly Applied for the test even though many of you here have called me a liar. I have stated publicly what my claim IS and I've posted links to it. I've had the Application notified and sent via Classified mail. I have the reciept from the US MAIL SERVICE as evidence. An academic has been contacted and has promised to mail AND email if need be his statement.
There is all kinds of media support for my excursions into THE PARANORMAL.
Many here have predicted that the JREF will not allow me to be tested even though I have done all that has been asked of me.
Why is that?

[Cuddles]

Thanks for the Name Calling ... It makes me marvel at the fairness here.
I'm not sure exactly WHAT I can say as the MODS continue to move this thread around. Where is it now?

It is in the Million Dollar Challenge section. It intially appeared that there was no challenge to be discussed, and it was moved. Since it now appears that there is an actual challenge application, it has been moved back to this section again.

So now can I talk about the test? My claims? People posting private emails, or information leaks?

You can talk about the test and any claims directly related to it. If you wish to discuss anything else, you must do so in the appropriate sections.

I have Honestly Applied for the test even though many of you here have called me a liar. I have stated publicly what my claim IS and I've posted links to it. I've had the Application notified and sent via Classified mail. I have the reciept from the US MAIL SERVICE as evidence. An academic has been contacted and has promised to mail AND email if need be his statement.
There is all kinds of media support for my excursions into THE PARANORMAL.
Many here have predicted that the JREF will not allow me to be tested even though I have done all that has been asked of me.
Why is that?

Read RemieV's posts. Firstly, your application has not reached the person who will deal with it. Until it gets to her, the JREF will not be able to comment on whether your claims are acceptable, let alone start discussions about a protocol for testing them. Secondly, you clearly have not done all that has been asked of you. You are required to provide the JREF with affadavits from academics. Simply stating that you have an academic willing to provide them is not good enough. As RemieV has said, if you do not provide them, no negotiations will take place.

[Czarcasm]

Thanks for the Name Calling ... It makes me marvel at the fairness here.
I'm not sure exactly WHAT I can say as the MODS continue to move this thread around. Where is it now?
This thread was started by YOUR Forum. After almost 30 uninformed posts (Since no one claims to have seen the application) someone from THIS Forum notifies me and informs me of the turmoil. I posted as I'd promised and pointed to my Public acceptance and submission of my Application. Someone even provided a picture as evidence, knowing I'd be called a liar. They were right. But it is the truth.
So now can I talk about the test? My claims? People posting private emails, or information leaks?
I'm not the one moving this thread around.
I have Honestly Applied for the test even though many of you here have called me a liar. I have stated publicly what my claim IS and I've posted links to it. I've had the Application notified and sent via Classified mail. I have the reciept from the US MAIL SERVICE as evidence. An academic has been contacted and has promised to mail AND email if need be his statement.
There is all kinds of media support for my excursions into THE PARANORMAL.
Many here have predicted that the JREF will not allow me to be tested even though I have done all that has been asked of me.
Why is that?
This is not "The Professor Show", and we are not your audience. If you want to shill for your various podcasts to increase hits, please do so elsewhere.

1. What do you plan to do to win the MDC?
2. Why exactly does it have to be at a specific time?
3. Why exactly does it have to be in a specific place?
4. Have you read all the conditions that apply to winning the MDC?
5. Does your particular challenge fit all of those conditions?

[Bob Klase]

I have Honestly Applied for the test even though many of you here have called me a liar.

I've read this thread twice and don't see where anyone has claimed you're lying about mailing an application. It's very easy to quote any post(s) to show where that's happened. It's easier to just make accusations you can't back up.

Many here have predicted that the JREF will not allow me to be tested even though I have done all that has been asked of me.
Why is that?

Because they're giving their opinion of what will happen and you seem to have a problem with it. Why is that?

[Chris H]

In addition to Czarcasm's five questions, perhaps you'd be happy to comment on my earlier post also?




The Professor Slim King is booked on ALL of his radio Shows as a MENTALIST!


If that's the case, then I expect your media presence as a "mentalist" won't be sufficient for the JREF MDC. Theoretically, if the JREF accepted someone performing mentalist tricks on the radio as "media presence", that would make Derren Brown, or even David Copperfield an acceptable applicant.


I'm still trying to get my head around how this can possibly be accepted as fulfilling the "media presence" criteria for the MDC. Yes, you appeared on an internet radio show, but you claim "ALL" of your appearances were as a "mentalist" (see above). Mentalism is a form of conjuring, and surely your appearances cannot be considered adequate for a claim of a paranormal ability or event?


I see that GuerrillaMagic has brought to this Forum the same LIES that got him kicked off the Magic Cafe.


This one just irks me a little. I wasn't kicked off The Magic Cafe for lying. I was banned for two weeks for telling the truth. I openly admitted that I had provided links to the Cafe to the 'Ghostman and Demon Hunter Show'. These links showed evidence that The Professors "prediction" could have been made by anyone who visited the JREF forum when he did. I fail to see how this can be referred to as lying, when it is quite the opposite. I urge all those interested to go and read through the post on the Cafe - my apologies for not being permitted to post the link to it. I have also e-mailed The Cafe manager Steve Brooks and informed him that I would gladly expose The Professors methods again without a second thought, but I would refrain from using The Magic Cafe in future.

Also, regarding RemieV's earlier post,


Mr. Koenig,

Thank you for your continued interest.

Protocol negotiations will not begin until we have received your academic affidavits. May I suggest you collect them yourself?

Also, I have just read on the JREF Forum that you are already telling people - in interviews and on forums - that you have made arrangements to take the preliminary Challenge. I must ask you to refrain from continuing that behaviour at least until it is true. We have not received your full application, and also have not agreed to any kind of testing protocol as of yet.

Please visit the sites where you have made these claims and retract them.

Thank you again.


I'm curious, as I'm sure others are, whether you have contacted the radio programs you appeared on, along with The Magic Cafe, to retract your claims?

Regards,

Chris

[Piggy]

So now can I talk about the test? My claims?

You always could, but so far have not.

Would you, please?

People posting private emails, or information leaks?

As people have already pointed out to you, and which you should have known from the beginning if you had read all the information regarding the Challenge, there are no "private emails" and there can be no "information leaks" because this is a transparent process.


I have stated publicly what my claim IS and I've posted links to it.

Then why not state it here, in a manner which conforms to the requirements of the Challenge?

That would be very helpful.

I've had the Application notified and sent via Classified mail. I have the reciept from the US MAIL SERVICE as evidence. An academic has been contacted and has promised to mail AND email if need be his statement.

So what you're saying is that your application is not complete.


Many here have predicted that the JREF will not allow me to be tested even though I have done all that has been asked of me.

By your own admission, you have not done all that is asked of an applicant for the Challenge.

And it would be more accurate to say that many here believe it likely that you will not meet the basic criteria for testing.

Personally, it seems to me that you have no intention of taking the test, and that this is all a stunt.

But you can always prove me wrong by providing all the necessary documentation, saying clearly that you intend to do something which is testable under the guidelines (which it seems you do not), and not making public statements claiming do have done things which you have not yet done.

I would be very pleased to be wrong about your intentions.

But right now, this smacks of performance art.

[chillzero]

Thread has been set to moderated status. The topic is strictly the application process and protocols for The Professor's challenge. As such, he should preferably state his exact claim in his next post, please.

Nothing else - no discussions about issues from other forums or personal issues with members will be approved.

[Marcus]

Since no one else has mentioned it, The Professor, might I suggest you read some of the other Challenge applications and threads? Protocol negotiations are a long process, and it is normal to wait weeks before JREF have a chance to address your application, you shouldn't get upset by that. Forumites would love to discuss any proposed protocol. From the hints we have had, it needs a whole lot of work, in the event that your Ability is indeed testable.

[Jackalgirl]

Hi!

Okay, you've said that there's no need for you to post your claim because it's already been posted and announced elsewhere. However, you have also stated that various unnamed persons are posting lies about the nature and scope of your claim (my paraphrasing).

I think it would really help, as Piggy has pointed out, to repost your claim. That way, no one is working off of erroneous information and we have an accurate post to which to point, should anyone attempt to put forward that your claim involves something else. Alternately, would you please answer my earlier question, which was:

Is Bob Klaus' transcription of your claim, in the radio show, accurate?

[William Smith]

Thanks for the Name Calling ... It makes me marvel at the fairness here.
I'm not sure exactly WHAT I can say as the MODS continue to move this thread around. Where is it now?
This thread was started by YOUR Forum. After almost 30 uninformed posts (Since no one claims to have seen the application) someone from THIS Forum notifies me and informs me of the turmoil. I posted as I'd promised and pointed to my Public acceptance and submission of my Application. Someone even provided a picture as evidence, knowing I'd be called a liar. They were right. But it is the truth.
So now can I talk about the test? My claims? People posting private emails, or information leaks?
I'm not the one moving this thread around.
I have Honestly Applied for the test even though many of you here have called me a liar. I have stated publicly what my claim IS and I've posted links to it. I've had the Application notified and sent via Classified mail. I have the reciept from the US MAIL SERVICE as evidence. An academic has been contacted and has promised to mail AND email if need be his statement.
There is all kinds of media support for my excursions into THE PARANORMAL.
Many here have predicted that the JREF will not allow me to be tested even though I have done all that has been asked of me.
Why is that?

If I were in your position, I'd do the following things in no particular order:

1. Scan the receipt of the registered letter I sent to the JREF and upload it to this thread.

2. Ignore non-constructive postings and/or personal attacks.

3. Start describing precisely what I'd try to do and what evidence I have collected to assume I'd be successful.

[Chris H]

Hi!

Is Bob Klaus' transcription of your claim, in the radio show, accurate?



Hi Jackalgirl,

I posted a transcript of The Professors statement in one of my earlier threads that is accurate, and I believe that Bob's and mine are the same.



(At 12 minutes and 40 seconds)
"I David Koenig will contact a paranormal entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked, and answered. This communication will be recorded with instrumental trans communication, and electronic voice phenomenon (ITC and EVP) methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact, in addition to still photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify any unusual presences at the location.

This demonstration will take place 10-31-2008 at Lake Helen, Florida. I will make contact on that date as a preliminary test, and then again on 10-31-2009 to complete the million dollar challenge, unless the JREF would like to forgo the preliminary test and go straight to the challenge on 10-31-2008. I would prefer to go straight to the million dollar challenge, and not waste any time."



You can download the show where the announcement/challenge claim was made at the following link.

http://ghostanddemon.podOmatic.com/enclosure/2008-08-17T20_46_11-07_00.mp3

The file is around 27MB, and at approximately 12 minutes and 40 seconds in you can hear The Professors statement.

Cheers,

Chris

[jimtron]

Slim: I sincerely wish you good luck. I wish more people would apply for the Challenge. If there are folks out there who truly have paranormal powers, it would be exciting news indeed to have that verified. With real paranormal ability, it wouldn't be too hard to win the MDC--just a matter of following the rules carefully, applying, and doing it.

[The Professor]

I agree with you CZ and I will try to provide as much information as I can with the time allotted. As you know I am getting married in a couple of days and everything is going crazy around here. I will also be gone on my Honeymoon for a couple of weeks.
I was prompted to join this thread much earlier than I'd wished. I was hoping that the JREF would post and not someone else, but here we go!

The Application was signed and Notarized At Fifth Third Bank in Altamonte Springs Florida.

Here are the two paragraphs that I've sent in addition as requested.

I. I. David Koenig. will contact a Paranormal Entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and
understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked and answered. This communication
will be recorded with Instrumental TransCommunication and Electronic Voice Phenomenon
(ITC and EVP) methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact in
addition to Still Photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify
any unusual presences at the location.
II. This Demonstration will take Place 10/31/2008 at Lake Helen Florida. I will make contact on
that date as a preliminary test and then again on 10/31/2009 to complete the Million Dollar
Challenge , unless the JREF would like to forgo the preliminary test and go straight to the
Challenge on 10/31/2008. I would prefer to go straight to the Million Dollar Challenge and not
waste any time.

I'm quoting this ..

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

This says "In most cases" and does not rule out the ability of the JREF to go straight to the challenge.

And again..


1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.

In my case the time and place are essential to give me the best possible success.
For centuries the evening of 10/31 has held special significance and is the optimum time to attempt this communication.
The place of The Devil's Chair in Lake Helen Florida has been called a "Portal" for many years and the majority of my successes have happened there.
This is why I've included the dates and place in accordance with the first rule.

At this time I have contacted over a dozen Paranormal Research groups that have the newest cutting edge equipment to assist in the recording of the ITC, EVP, Video and/or other contact and communication.

I called the JREF to request their definition of academic (Note it is punctuated incorrectly on the application, strange) and I was told something like ..."Well, No P.E. teachers" or something like that. Funny if you know the origin of the word. The conversation was pleasant and I was able to wish Randi happy birthday a bit later.

Barnes and Noble best selling author, Charlie Carlson has mailed his affidavit to the JREF.
Historian and long time researcher, Charlie was recommended to me as THE EXPERT in the field.
He's written "Weird Florida" and articles in "Weird US" for Barnes and Noble.

Charlie Carl Carlson, Jr. (born in Sanford, Florida), is a prolific American and Florida author, novelist, actor, and film producer. Known as "Florida's Man in Black" or "Master of the Weird", Mr. Carlson specializes in paranormal, strange events and places, and many historical books. Mr. Carlson has also produced and acted in radio shows and movie productions related to his genre. Charlie Carlson joined the US Army and spent two tours in Vietnam with the famed 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment (Blackhorse) and after 25 years retired as a Command Sergeant Major. Charlie Carlson went on to become a showman of outdoor attractions and began his writing career as author of several Florida history books and the Civil War. In 1997 he began writing about Florida folklore and published the successful book, "Strange Florida" and portrayed Professor Charles Morehouse on the SciFi Channel's "Curse of the Blair Witch." He has produced and appeared in other movies and television documentaries. He is a frequent guest on Florida talk radio and is the author of the best selling book, "Weird Florida" [Barnes & Noble, 2005] and his first fiction novel, "Ashley's Shadow" [Luthers Publishing, 2006]. Mr. Carlson currently lives on the east coast of Florida. Charlie Carlson is one of the founding members of America's Grand Order of Weird Writers at http://www.weirdwriters.com. Mr. Carlson currently produces independent films of which the latest was "Henry Blackheart Is Dead" with Blue Heron Films.

I understand that this is just the beginning and I have several things that were not covered in the brief two paragraph submission requested.

My contact requests and questions will be delivered in at least 5 different languages and a visual Sign language. Interpreters will be on hand to provide the very best translations of recordings and communications with the entities.
I will be seated in what is commonly called The Devil's Chair in Lake Helen.

Many have said that I should be disqualified because of my notoriety as a Mentalist and Magician.
To hold with this logic you would have to disqualify James Randi Himself and the entire Magic section of this Forum.

I'm am usually booked as a mentalist but often go beyond that label and make Paranormal Predictions and other Paranormal Activities that evolve around the Devil's Chair.
I often speak of the Paranormal Events that happen there while on these programs.

My challenge to Criss Angel is a Mentalism challenge but does not prevent me from using whatever methods I choose. The JREF MDC is a Paranormal challenge and I know the difference.

I would like to use state of the art recording methods such as digital multi-track recording, audio processing, and the latest in scanning technology. Many are getting improved results with the advent of advanced technology.

For several years it has been my goal to duplicate a Paranormal Event constructed by Hans Otto Koenig but with even stricter scientific methods.


Radio Luxembourg experiments

In West Germany Hans-Otto Koenig, an electronics and acoustics expert, developed sophisticated electronic equipment using 'extremely low beat frequency oscillators, ultraviolet and infra-red lights.' On the 15th January, 1983 he was invited to appear on Europe's biggest radio station, Radio Luxembourg. At that time it had a listening audience of millions across Europe. Koenig was asked to give a live radio demonstration of his newly developed ultrasound technique of conversing two-way with those who had died.

Koenig installed his equipment under the watchful eyes of the Radio's own engineers and the presenter of the program, Herr Rainer Holbe. One of the Radio's staff asked if a voice could come through in direct response to his requests. Almost immediately a voice replied:

'We hear your voice' and 'Otto Koenig makes wireless with the dead' (Fuller 1981:339).

Other questions were asked. But then announcer Holbe, shaken by what he and everybody else had heard, stated:

I tell you, dear listeners of Radio Luxembourg, and I swear by the life of my children, that nothing has been manipulated. There are no tricks. It is a voice, and we do not know from where it comes (Fuller 1981:339).

The station issued an official statement afterwards that every step of the program was carefully supervised. The staff and engineers were convinced that the voices were paranormal (Fuller 1981:339).


I would duplicate this Paranormal Event with even greater success.

Many have questioned whether I've even truly applied.
Here is the link that shows the JREF has received the Application.
I have the receipt 7007 2560 0000 9957 6717
http://trkcnfrm1.smi.usps.com/PTSInternetWeb/InterLabelInquiry.do

This is an honest attempt to take the JREF MDC
I have applied in good faith and I am willing to cooperate in any way to get this Challenge to become reality!

I will also take CZ's advice and no longer respond to personal attacks and non-constructive posts.

Thanks
David Koenig

[Cuddles]

Many have said that I should be disqualified because of my notoriety as a Mentalist and Magician.

No they haven't. What they have actually said is two things - firstly, that it appeared you only claim to be a mentalist and not have any paranormal powers. Obviously this would mean you were not ellgible for the challenge. Since yuo have now verified that you are making a paranormal claim this is no longer relevant. Secondly, that your exposure in the media as a mentalist will not count for the challenge. In order to be elligible, the media exposure must relate specifically to your claim.

As far as I can tell, this is still not the case, you merely cite and example of someone else appearing in the media. If you do not have media exposure regarding this specific claim, you are not elligible to take the challenge.

To hold with this logic you would have to disqualify James Randi Himself and the entire Magic section of this Forum.

Since when has Randi applied for the challenge?

I would like to use state of the art recording methods such as digital multi-track recording, audio processing, and the latest in scanning technology. Many are getting improved results with the advent of advanced technology.

Obviously I don't speak for the JREF, but I expect this will be a problem once negotiations start. You will almost certainly not be allowed any kind of processing on recordings, since the possibility of fraud would be much too high. As clearly stated in the challenge rules, results must be self-evident and require no interpretation or judgement.

In fact, I doubt the JREF will ever accept any claim about EVP. The whole thing is about subjective judgement and is just not amenable to serious testing. Believers say they hear things, most people just hear noise, and even those who think they hear something rarely hear the same thing unless prompted what they should hear beforehand. If you can come up with an objective test involving EVP, I would be very interested to see it, but I doubt your claim as it stands would be suitable for the JREF challenge.

[Jackalgirl]

Hi, David --

Super! I'm really glad you posted your application. Thank you!

I made some statements & asked you a couple of questions offline that I'm going to repeat (or, rather, rephrase) here.

First: is this entity speaking through you? (In other words, is this "channeling" in so many words?) If so, I think you're going to have a hard time convincing JREF to accept your claim. You're going to have to demonstrate that you are not acting, and in such a way as does not require (subjective) judgement or interpretation on anyone's part. Does the entity possess any paranormal abilities that you do not? Is it clairvoyant, or telepathic, or telekinetic? Can it make very specific time-limited predictions (along the lines of "next week's lottery number in City, State" as opposed to "earthquakes will occur")?

Remember, the Application specifically requires claims to be objectively testable.

If the entity will appear with you, as opposed to speaking through you, you're going to need to control for any possible hoax or flummery. For example, would it be possible to construct a Faraday cage around you (and the Devil's Chair)? We want to demonstrate that a hidden receiver is not getting a signal from a hoaxer.

You say:

Many have said that I should be disqualified because of my notoriety as a Mentalist and Magician.
To hold with this logic you would have to disqualify James Randi Himself and the entire Magic section of this Forum.

No one in this Forum would say that. It doesn't matter who you are, just that you have a paranormal claim. Some people in this Forum have questioned, however, whether your appearance on the radio talking about mentalism meets the media presence requirement as a paranormal person (or, rather, someone who has some means of demonstrating the paranormal). But that is a question best answered by RemieV.

Lastly, you do not need to include any explanations, including anecdotal information such as the explanation of the Radio-Luxembourg experiments, descriptions of your background, descriptions of your interactions (or attempted interactions) with other persons (such as Criss Angel). I'd drop that stuff from further discussion with RemieV, et al, right now, because Randi isn't going to care. Just stick to:

o the basic statement of your claim*
o describe exactly what will happen during the demonstration. I mean exactly -- who goes where, who does what, what goes where, etc.
o describe the conditions for success (and failure) -- it is absolutely essential that you describe what constitutes both a success AND a failure

Lastly, be prepared to explain -- in detail -- how you will ensure that the results of your protocol will be objectively obvious.

*I'd also recommend that instead of stating that you will "contact a paranormal entity", that you simply state that on a yearly basis, a paranormal event occurs at this certain place at a certain time, and you intend to demonstrate that it is, in fact, paranormal and not a hoax. I suggest this because of the specific prohibition against tests involving "angels or demons". If you word it my way, you're simply demonstrating a paranormal event, which falls within the scope of the Challenge -- assuming, of course, that the claim is in fact testable in a controlled and objective way.

Have a terrific wedding and a great honeymoon. No matter how bad it gets, just remember that one minute past your wedding will come, and at that point you'll be married. So anything else that happens is Small Stuff. : )

[Jackalgirl]

I'd made some other suggestions in my offline correspondence, btw - for example, in addition to the Faraday cage (with a control cellphone inside that will be tested for signal reception), that he have a group of observers, some he provides and some provided by JREF (or, I add here, its representatives). They'll write down what they think they hear. Afterwards, their responses will be compared. That way, if it is pareidolia going on, the answers will probably not match.

I also suggested that 20 questions be prepared beforehand, twenty questions with clear and distinct (from each other) answers. Preferably, these should be questions the answers to which the listeners (and David) don't know. During the test, ten of them will be randomly selected, asked, and the answers written down by our bank of observers. Afterwards, the answers will be compared against one another for commonality and then compared with the master list for accuracy. This presumes, though, that the paranormal entity is telepathic in some way.

[Azrael 5]

I'm am usually booked as a mentalist but often go beyond that label and make Paranormal Predictions and other Paranormal Activities that evolve around the Devil's Chair.
I often speak of the Paranormal Events that happen there while on these programs.

Could you cite proof of these "paranormal" predictions.
For reference here is a link to Devil's Chair in Florida
http://www.weirdus.com/stories/FL01.asp

[chillzero]

Could you cite proof of these "paranormal" predictions.
For reference here is a link to Devil's Chair in Florida
http://www.weirdus.com/stories/FL01.asp

Perhaps that's a thread in itself, in the Paranormal section? Let's keep this one focussed on this claim and challenge.

[steenkh]

Hello TP,

Great to see that you have applied in a meaningful manner, and that you are aware of what is needed for the challenge. However, you seem not to have considered that one of the demands for the MDC is that your paranormal ability can be established as immediately apparent without judging. You mention all sorts of equipment that can be used for recording the event, but you do not mention just how you would go about proving it is a paranormal event using criteria that can only be true or false and not anything in between.

Even if your spirits can tell what is inside closed envelopes, there still has to be no ambiguity, and no room for interpretation, so you would need to clearly establish that the spirits are right in a binary way.

How exactly do you propose to prove that the event is paranormal?

[William Smith]

Hello TP,

Great to see that you have applied in a meaningful manner, and that you are aware of what is needed for the challenge. However, you seem not to have considered that one of the demands for the MDC is that your paranormal ability can be established as immediately apparent without judging. You mention all sorts of equipment that can be used for recording the event, but you do not mention just how you would go about proving it is a paranormal event using criteria that can only be true or false and not anything in between.

Even if your spirits can tell what is inside closed envelopes, there still ha to be no ambiguity, and no room for interpretation, so you would need to clearly establish that the spirits are right in a binary way.

How exactly do you propose to prove that the event is paranormal?

I second steenkh's post and would like to add:

The Professor, how do you propose to prove that the entity is what you claim it is and not something entirely different?

Worded in a more technical manner: How would one be able to falsify your claim?

[Lanzy]

Maybe I missed it, but where does anything say the "entity" is only around once a year? The web site says after midnightm period.

[Mojo]

I called the JREF to request their definition of academic (Note it is punctuated incorrectly on the application, strange) and I was told something like ..."Well, No P.E. teachers" or something like that. Funny if you know the origin of the word. The conversation was pleasant and I was able to wish Randi happy birthday a bit later.

Barnes and Noble best selling author, Charlie Carlson has mailed his affidavit to the JREF.
Historian and long time researcher, Charlie was recommended to me as THE EXPERT in the field.
He's written "Weird Florida" and articles in "Weird US" for Barnes and Noble.

Charlie Carl Carlson, Jr. (born in Sanford, Florida), is a prolific American and Florida author, novelist, actor, and film producer. Known as "Florida's Man in Black" or "Master of the Weird", Mr. Carlson specializes in paranormal, strange events and places, and many historical books. Mr. Carlson has also produced and acted in radio shows and movie productions related to his genre. Charlie Carlson joined the US Army and spent two tours in Vietnam with the famed 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment (Blackhorse) and after 25 years retired as a Command Sergeant Major. Charlie Carlson went on to become a showman of outdoor attractions and began his writing career as author of several Florida history books and the Civil War. In 1997 he began writing about Florida folklore and published the successful book, "Strange Florida" and portrayed Professor Charles Morehouse on the SciFi Channel's "Curse of the Blair Witch." He has produced and appeared in other movies and television documentaries. He is a frequent guest on Florida talk radio and is the author of the best selling book, "Weird Florida" [Barnes & Noble, 2005] and his first fiction novel, "Ashley's Shadow" [Luthers Publishing, 2006]. Mr. Carlson currently lives on the east coast of Florida. Charlie Carlson is one of the founding members of America's Grand Order of Weird Writers at http://www.weirdwriters.com. Mr. Carlson currently produces independent films of which the latest was "Henry Blackheart Is Dead" with Blue Heron Films.


I doubt that he would come within any generally accepted definition of "an academic", even if he isn't a PE teacher. I don't think playing one on TV counts.

[The Professor]

I appreciate everyones help!!!!
Thanks.
Recording a voice of an entity that is NOT THERE, NOT VISIBLE (Unless someone or video takes a cool photo) Not present in this reality as we know it. Why wouldn't that be Paranormal?
JG
The voice will not be coming from me .. at least not from my voice box. Not physically.
I will try to fine tune the event description but I'm up against a Hard Break, my marriage.
Charlie Carlson is an Expert in the field. He is also on the Board of Directors for a Museum. He lectures extensively and is a consultant on more than one upcoming TV show soon to be on the History Channel I believe. (I might be wrong about the station)
I did not get to post his most recent accomplishments. We'd be here all day!

One thing I do find trying is that many skeptics try to tell ME what spirits, entities, or whatever paranormal forms, are capable of doing. Some say they are omnipotent, but I don't see it like that. Perhaps you've discussed their "Powers" before.
I don't understand the envelope question. Can spirits see through paper?

Anyway, The Inlaws just got here ... Gotta run
THANKS EVERYONE!!!!!!

[IXP]

I can think of only one way that this kind of claim can be tested while ruling out trickery. The paranormal entity must unambiguously answer a question that neither you, nor anyone else present can answer. Can your paranormal entity do this? If not, you are in for a disappointment.

IXP

p.s. I sure hope the Great Pumpkin shows up, his record is, well, not all that impressive!

[IXP]

Recording a voice of an entity that is NOT THERE, NOT VISIBLE (Unless someone or video takes a cool photo) Not present in this reality as we know it. Why wouldn't that be Paranormal?

If recording a voice that does not come from a visible person is all that is needed to win the MDC I would be a rich man by now. If I were allowed to pick the time and place of the demonstration it would make it considerably easier. Have fun trying to get this one past Randi.

IXP

[Bob Klase]

Recording a voice of an entity that is NOT THERE, NOT VISIBLE (Unless someone or video takes a cool photo) Not present in this reality as we know it. Why wouldn't that be Paranormal?

Of course not. I've recorded the voice of an entity that is not here many times- recording from a TV, radio or telephone are 3 simple ways to do just that. I could claim that it's an entity not present in this reality but that wouldn't make it true.

If you want to prove it's paranormal you have to have controls that prevent things like radio, hidden speakers, ventriloquism or other mundane methods. And if you want to claim that it's a ghost or some other paranormal entity then you have to do more than show that it's unknown. That seems to be a problem for many people claiming something is paranormal.

If you see something flying in the air and don't know what it is, that means it's unidentified. The mere fact that it's unidentified does not prove that it's a flying saucer.

If you hear a voice and don't know whose (or what's) voice it is- that merely shows that you don't know. That does not mean it must be "it's an entity not in this reality", or a ghost.

Claiming that "well, it could be" isn't enough. There "could be" a pig somewhere that can fly, but that won't stop me from eating bacon.

[Coveredinbeeees]

Recording a voice of an entity that is NOT THERE, NOT VISIBLE (Unless someone or video takes a cool photo) Not present in this reality as we know it. Why wouldn't that be Paranormal?

In much the same way that the announcement about the next train leaving the station wouldn't be paranormal. It is a voice, it comes from an entity that is not there, not visible!

If we strip away the spooky location it seems that you are saying that you will sit of a chair and people will hear a voice coming from you even though you are not speaking. There are lots of ways that this effect could be produced normally and those are the ways that you will have to rule out in your protocol.

People are suggesting asking the "spirit" an unambiguous question about the contents of a sealed box or a specific future event whose answer can be confirmed, not because they think that they know more about spirits than you do but because such a test would be easier to judge. With such a test the existence of the spirit would be moot. Knowledge of the contents of the sealed box would be paranormal enough.

[Czarcasm]

The voice will not be coming from me .. at least not from my voice box. Not physically.
Again, this is not "The Professor Show", and we are not your audience. If you could dispense with the "teases" and vague promises of future revelations it would be appreciated.
As it now stands, what we seem to have is yet another Halloween seance with "mysterious" sound effects and recorded noises. If you make a claim that some noise is coming from a supernatural entity, "What else could it possibly be??" is definitely not a suitable response.

[Azrael 5]

This I think is important due to The Professor's claims of said place being "a portal".

Some people visit to investigate the rumors of "witches" and the "devil's chair," an area in the cemetery that is rumored to be haunted. They are disappointed when no one in the town dresses like a witch or practices black magic. The "devil's chair" rumor is put to rest quickly, as the residents of the town only learned of it after visitors came up with the story; there is no cemetery in Cassadaga. Nearby Lake Helen has one, which may be where the rumor stemmed from, but that town is not associated with Spiritualism.
http://media.www.usforacle.com/media/storage/paper880/news/2004/02/23/Montage/The-Spirit.Of.Cassadaga-1675917.shtml

[jimtron]

One thing I do find trying is that many skeptics try to tell ME what spirits, entities, or whatever paranormal forms, are capable of doing. Some say they are omnipotent, but I don't see it like that. Perhaps you've discussed their "Powers" before.
I don't understand the envelope question. Can spirits see through paper?If spirits are real, the skeptical viewpoint is to identify them and understand them as they really are. Same with atoms and molecules and stuff--these things are not visible to the naked eye, but they really exist and we can learn about what they are. We don't tell anyone what an atom should be, or what we want it to be--science is about learning how things actually are. But science requires evidence. What is the evidence that spirits exist? If you want to take the Challenge, you'll have to show evidence of talking to spirits. Empirical, testable evidence that rules out trickery and stuff. There are many ways of faking ghosts and spirits and talking to the dead--I think we all know many of them. But if you want a crack at the million, it's got to be real evidence so we know you are truly talking to spirits and not faking it.

[Jackalgirl]

Howdy!

Really, I'm just going to rehash. Everyone else has already said it:

o Your demonstration is going to have to provide controls so that it is impossible for this effect to occur unless something paranormal is going on.

I don't think anyone here has told you, per se, what the paranormal entity is capable of doing. We've done a lot of speculating, though, because you haven't given us a lot of information.

What we're trying to do is give you examples of what kinds of tests might be possible if the spirit were capable of doing certain things. For example, if it's clairvoyant, it'd be able to tell what was written on a piece of paper in a sealed envelope. If it's psychic, it'd be able to tell what image (say, a grahic from a Zener card, or something like that) someone at a distance was looking at. If it's telekinetic, it'd be able to lift an object, etc etc etc.

We're throwing out these possibilities by ways of saying "these types of claims are testable".

So please, tell us what the entity can do. Can it do anything paranormal? Or is it just going to talk? Will it be visible to the naked eye, or is this purely an auditory effect?

(Edited to add: I see that you've mentioned it's not visible, but then mention photography, etc. So I assume it is in fact a purely auditory effect [at least, on the face of it]).

Since it is not going to be speaking through you, what do you think about my Faraday cage* idea? Remember, we have to demonstrate that it is not a hidden speaker or radio or cellphone or other kind of receiver. A way to test that would be to build Faraday cage big enough to cover both the chair and yourself. You could run some tests beforehand to demonstrate that radio/microwave/etc energy can't get in there and that way, observers could be reasonably certain that some shenanigans with a hidden walkie-talkie aren't going on.

*smarter minds than mine would need to specify how the cage is to be built in order to block signals from walkie-talkies, cellphones, etc.

[Azrael 5]

The sad thing here is The Professor is just out for attention, IF he ever applies for the preliminary test,he will fail.Then he will claim "fix" or "Randi backed down" just like his magic cafe cohort Jim Callahan did.

It's all about publicity with these two,and being on here is The Professor's oxygen,I'm afraid.

[Piggy]

Recording a voice of an entity that is NOT THERE, NOT VISIBLE (Unless someone or video takes a cool photo) Not present in this reality as we know it. Why wouldn't that be Paranormal?

It would require a judgment beyond the act.

Ok, so a voice registers on a recording.

All right.

And....?

[IMST]

Something worth pointing out as we look for controls here: if wired correctly, it is entirely possible to make a microphone into a speaker. So if the claimed paranormal entity is heard in the room and recorded, the presence of microphones is something that needs to be accounted for as a possible source of the signal. It would not be too hard to take a prerecorded conversation, play it back through a microphone so it sounds quietly in the room, then go back and verify the presence of the recording. If there was a second mic, one could combine what was said in the room with the sound coming from the other one and get the whole conversation put down on a recording medium.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

So The Professor is a ventriloquist? :cool:

[Gr8wight]

OK, I'm confused. You said:

...I will try to fine tune the event description..

But then you, you know...didn't.

[arthwollipot]

This all sounds to me like The Professor is just going to try and sneak a piece of stage magic past Randi and the JREF.

Good luck with that.

[steenkh]

Recording a voice of an entity that is NOT THERE, NOT VISIBLE (Unless someone or video takes a cool photo) Not present in this reality as we know it. Why wouldn't that be Paranormal?
How would you prove unambiguously - no judging involved - that this entity is not present in our reality?

The voice will not be coming from me .. at least not from my voice box. Not physically.
Have you previously tested yourself under conditions that might be similar to what the JREF may demand?

[rjh01]

I just read what the professor has said. He makes no claim that he will do anything paranormal. It is up to him to say what he can do that we can say is paranormal.

[Cuddles]

OK, this is mostly just a rehash of what others have said, but I'm going to try asking some specific questions that would go a long way to providing some understanding here, and that will have to be addressed before any test takes place anyway.

Recording a voice of an entity that is NOT THERE, NOT VISIBLE (Unless someone or video takes a cool photo)

So is it visible or not? The test will be videotaped. Are you saying that the spirit will appear on a video? If so, that may be a much easier claim to test than hearing voices.

Why wouldn't that be Paranormal?

As others have explained, the question is not "Why wouldn't it?", the question is "Why would it?". This is not a challenge to prove that something we don't understand can happen, it is a challenge to prove that something specific definitely does happen. How do you plan on proving that something paranormal has actually happened?

The voice will not be coming from me .. at least not from my voice box. Not physically.

So will the voice come from you or not? If it comes from your body, voice box or not, there are all the problems others have mentioned about speakers, microphones, vetriloquism and so on. How do you propose proving that the voice is produced by a spirit and not by you?

I will try to fine tune the event description

Why does it need fine tuning? Do you not already know what you will do and what will happen? It would seem odd to be publicisng this all over the internet but not acutally know what it is you are publicising.

One thing I do find trying is that many skeptics try to tell ME what spirits, entities, or whatever paranormal forms, are capable of doing.

Firstly, what makes you think you know so much more about spirits than anyone else here? You are hardly alone in claiming to communicate with invisible entities, and the claims rarely agree with each other. What is so special about your claim that distinguishes it from all the others?

Secondly, as others have explained, no-one has actually tried to tell you what spirits can do. What we have done is ask you what they can do. The test you seem to want is almost certainly not suitable for the challenge. If you can give us details on spirits and their abilities, we can come up with other potential tests that are more likely to be acceptable. For example, if they can see hidden things or read minds, that is very easy to test. If all they can do is talk, but not say anything that you don't already know, they would seem to be fairly ineffectual spirits, and would it would be pretty much impossible to prove that they exist at all.

I don't understand the envelope question. Can spirits see through paper?

You tell us. Many people claim they can. Or simply that they know everything. Or could read the mind of whoever put something inside the envelope. Or see the future when the envelope is opened. Or any number of other things. We can't help you come up with an acceptable test unless you actually tell us what you think your spirits can do.

I also have some questions regarding the test you have proposed:

1) How, exactly, do you propose recording the spirits? What equipment will be used? What format will the recordings be? Will any processing be required? If so, what, specifically? How will you listen to the recordings?

2) Will the voices be audible during the test, or will they only appear on recordings?

3) What will the voices say? Will there be specific words or phrases? Will they answer questions? Will you not know what they'll say until you hear it? Will there be coherent sentences or will there just be a jumble of words? How clear will the voices be? Will they need interpretation and judgement like most EVP, or will it be obvious to everyone, with no prompting, what they way?

4) Who will decide what the voices are saying? Will you listen to the recordings and tell everyone what they say? Will it be obvious to everyone present? Would you accept an impartial third party to process, listen to and interpret the voices? Can you think of a way to analyse the recordings that would be entirely objective? These last two points are particularly important, since the challenge must be objective, with no subjective judegment involved.

5) Can you define exactly what would count as a pass and what would count as failure?

6) Have you actually done this specific act before, or do you just believe it will work because of what you know about spirits and the time/location?

7) You have cited examples of similar things happening in different locations at different times. Why are you limited to this one place on one date, when apparently others could talk to spirits on demand? This is another very important point, since limiting a possible test to one date may mean the JREF is unable to test if no-one is available at that time. Given that there are only two months to go, it is almost certain that a test will not take this year since your application has not even been accepted yet, let alone had a protocol agreed.

8) Congratulations on the wedding and enjoy your honeymoon.

[Mojo]

Charlie Carlson is an Expert in the field. He is also on the Board of Directors for a Museum.


What museum?

In any case, I'm not sure that being on the board of a museum automatically makes someone an "academic". their status as an academic would depend on what they did in their day job rather than their mere presence on the board of a museum. For example, many of the directors of this museum (http://www.wildlife-museum.org/about/directors.php) (a random selection from the first page of a Google search for museum and "board of directors") would not appear to come under the definition of "academics".
He lectures extensively and is a consultant on more than one upcoming TV show soon to be on the History Channel I believe. (I might be wrong about the station)


Where does he lecture? To be considered an "academic", I suspect that he would need to be a lecturer at one or more universities or further education colleges. You really need to find someone who would fit that description.

[petre]

To illustrate some of the legwork that is yet required in your protocol negotiation, note that whatever setup is used will have to conclusively demonstrate that known sound technology is NOT behind the phenomenon.

http://www.woodynorris.com/Articles/USAToday2.htm

A summary for those uninterested in reading the entire article: Using a hypersonic sound projecting device, it is possible to project sound to a small concentrated area 100 yards away (or perhaps even further, the technology is over 5 years old already, and even in the article 100 yards is just an example given, not a limit). So therefore for your question "is sound coming from an unseen source paranormal?" the answer is: No. Any solid object is capable of turning this specially-tuned hypersonic sound into audible sound that will appear to originate at the solid object (which could be the recording device itself).

Perhaps you could enclose the Devil's Chair in a bubble impervious to hypersonic sound. That option may also be prohibitively expensive though.

As others have noted, there could be some quality to the sound produced from paranormal entities that would distinguish it from non-paranormal sound. If it were able to provide information that could not be gained in a non-paranormal way (identifying hidden contents, making predictions about future events like coin flips or dice rolls, etc) then it could be identified as paranormal sound.

[Azrael 5]

What museum?

In any case, I'm not sure that being on the board of a museum automatically makes someone an "academic". their status as an academic would depend on what they did in their day job rather than their mere presence on the board of a museum. For example, many of the directors of this museum (http://www.wildlife-museum.org/about/directors.php) (a random selection from the first page of a Google search for museum and "board of directors") would not appear to come under the definition of "academics".



Where does he lecture? To be considered an "academic", I suspect that he would need to be a lecturer at one or more universities or further education colleges. You really need to find someone who would fit that description.


Mojo a quick Google of Mr Carlson will reveal him to be a believer in parnaormal and author of books on "haunted Florida",therefore hardly independent academic. ;)

[Cuddles]

Mojo a quick Google of Mr Carlson will reveal him to be a believer in parnaormal and author of books on "haunted Florida",therefore hardly independent academic. ;)

In all fairness, the JREF never said anything about "independent". While it doesn't seem entirely clear how they define "academic", I don't think they would discount someone just because they believe in the paranormal, and I'm fairly sure they've accepted such in the past.

Far more important is whether The Professor has actually sent a signed statement from this, or any other, academic to the JREF. As I understand it, all he has said is that the knows some academics, but has not actually sent the statements as requested. Until he does so, he does not have a valid application. The same is true for his media presence, which he has yet to confirm has anything to do with this claim.

[Mojo]

Mojo a quick Google of Mr Carlson will reveal him to be a believer in parnaormal and author of books on "haunted Florida",therefore hardly independent academic. ;)


It also reveals (http://members.tripod.com/~UNX3/current.html) "Charlie Carlson's Museum of the Strange & Unusual, a mini-version of an old time tented circus sideshow".


In all fairness, the JREF never said anything about "independent". While it doesn't seem entirely clear how they define "academic", I don't think they would discount someone just because they believe in the paranormal, and I'm fairly sure they've accepted such in the past.

Far more important is whether The Professor has actually sent a signed statement from this, or any other, academic to the JREF. As I understand it, all he has said is that the knows some academics, but has not actually sent the statements as requested. Until he does so, he does not have a valid application. The same is true for his media presence, which he has yet to confirm has anything to do with this claim.


He says that Mr Carlson "has mailed his affidavit to the JREF". The question, though, is not whether or not Mr. Carlson is "independent" or "a believer in the paranormal", but whether he is an academic.

[Moochie]

So The Professor is a ventriloquist? :cool:


No, I believe he's going to channel Edgar Bergen.


M.

[petre]

Agreed. I expect wrt the challenge, an "academic" would be "someone who stands to lose credibility if this applicant they've supported ends up unable to demonstrate as agreed".

[Piggy]

Agreed. I expect wrt the challenge, an "academic" would be "someone who stands to lose credibility if this applicant they've supported ends up unable to demonstrate as agreed".

I would expect an "academic" to be someone who has a full-time teaching/research career at an accredited post-secondary educational institution (or emeritus).

[RemieV]

I would expect an "academic" to be someone who has a full-time teaching/research career at an accredited post-secondary educational institution (or emeritus).

The definition of an academic in the context of the Challenge is:

An individual previously unknown to the applicant who has a background in critical thinking and/or the scientific method.

[Piggy]

The definition of an academic in the context of the Challenge is:

An individual previously unknown to the applicant who has a background in critical thinking and/or the scientific method.

Thank you.

A mighty generous definition, I should say!

[Gord_in_Toronto]

No, I believe he's going to channel Edgar Bergen.


M.

So the Professor is Charlie McCarthy? :boggled:

[Mojo]

The definition of an academic in the context of the Challenge is:

An individual previously unknown to the applicant who has a background in critical thinking and/or the scientific method.


Are you currently able to comment on whether Mr. Carlson fits the profile?

[RemieV]

Are you currently able to comment on whether Mr. Carlson fits the profile?

No. Under normal conditions, Mr. Carlson would not be considered an academic. Due to the time constraints as stipulated by the profile, we are willing to bend a little this once in the interest of actually running the test - should protocol negotiations work out favourably.

It's still too early to make a prediction on whether or not they will as I remain applicationless.

[TheDoLittle]

So the Professor is Charlie McCarthy? :boggled:

...Mortimer Snerd.

[Piggy]

No. Under normal conditions, Mr. Carlson would not be considered an academic. Due to the time constraints as stipulated by the profile, we are willing to bend a little this once in the interest of actually running the test - should protocol negotiations work out favourably.

Well, I know my opinion doesn't mean a hill of beans, but boy, I wish you wouldn't.

All indications are that this is not an honest attempt at proving paranormal phenomena, but that it is instead a stunt, a performance, a willful hoax.

I may be wrong. But given what we've seen so far, it seems to me that bending the rules in this case is unwise.

[Chris H]

No. Under normal conditions, Mr. Carlson would not be considered an academic. Due to the time constraints as stipulated by the profile, we are willing to bend a little this once in the interest of actually running the test - should protocol negotiations work out favourably.

It's still too early to make a prediction on whether or not they will as I remain applicationless.

Remie,

Is it likely that the application will be forwarded to you at your present location? Otherwise, approximately when are you likely to be back at the JREF HQ to collect your mail? I believe that The Professor got married over the weekend, so I doubt he will be online anytime soon to make comment. I am, along with others here, interested in how his application is progressing though.

Cheers,

Chris

[steenkh]

All indications are that this is not an honest attempt at proving paranormal phenomena, but that it is instead a stunt, a performance, a willful hoax.
James Randi started the precursor of the MDC with exposing magicians who claimed they did not do it by tricks but through supernatural forces. He has spent a lifetime haunting Uri Geller. I can easily imagine mr. Randi bending the rules in order to get at yet another magician who cons people with claims of the supernatural.

It will be a battle of wits, and you think James Randi is in risk of losing?

[Chris H]

All indications are that this is not an honest attempt at proving paranormal phenomena, but that it is instead a stunt, a performance, a willful hoax.

I may be wrong. But given what we've seen so far, it seems to me that bending the rules in this case is unwise.



I completely agree. But if The Professor fails the test, atleast he can't claim he was treated unfairly. It will be abundantly clear to everyone that the JREF went out of their way to assist him in his MDC application.



It will be a battle of wits, and you think James Randi is in risk of losing?



In a battle of wits, I have no doubt whatsoever that Mr. Randi and the JREF will win, and I have very little concern over them losing the million dollars in this particular case. My concern, like Piggy, is the possibility that The Professor's application is merely a cry for attention and publicity, and he has no intention of ever taking the MDC.

I've been a member on The Magic Cafe.com for many years now, and I've spent a fair amount of time involved in threads regarding the JREF and the MDC. My position has always been in support of the JREF, and I've found that two of the most vocal members against Randi have been The Professor, and his friend Jim Callahan. No doubt you've all seen the work of Mr. Callahan, and his comments regarding the MDC. This man boldly states on his website that,

"$1,000,000.00 is what I intend to make as a result of testing with James Randi and his JREF organization."
(http://jimclass.com/Challange.htm)

Jim believes the JREF MDC is rigged, so he has devised his own challenge which he feels suits his "abilities" better. Because the JREF aren't banging on his door to take said challenge, he advertises this as proof that Randi is scared of him. Jim is known to the JREF, and will seemingly tell anyone who'll listen (and even some who won't) how Randi "ran from his challenge". You can read more about it here:

http://jimclass.com/Bid_for_$1,000,000.00.htm

I understand that The Professor and Mr. Callahan are close friends. Infact, the photo of The Professor mailing his application to the JREF was first posted on Jim's website:

http://www.jimclass.com/RadioESP.htm

Based purely on my experience with both men over at The Magic Cafe, I suspect that The Professors application has been orchestrated with Mr. Callahan's assistance, and is more for future publicity than it is a genuine attempt at the MDC. This would explain the already noticeable loopholes that have begun to appear, such as;


The public announcement by The Professor regarding the time and details of the challenge before the JREF acknowledged his application.



The unfounded (and irrelevant) allegations that the details of The Professors application were "leaked" by JREF staff, and his accusations of unethical behavior.



The countless archived posts by The Professor on The Magic Cafe, publicly claiming that the JREF MDC is a fraud.


I'm also particularly interested in what The Professor will be providing as the required "proof of media presence". He has stated in this thread that he is booked for all of his radio appearances as a mentalist.


The Professor Slim King is booked on ALL of his radio Shows as a MENTALIST!



As I have already mentioned in another post, mentalism is a form of conjuring/magic. If The Professors claims about being booked as a mentalist are true (and I see no reason to doubt him), then I expect that the links to the radio programs he provided in his e-mail to RemieV (posted earlier in this thread) will not be sufficient media presence for the MDC. My suggestion is that The Professor should take part in the event this year without the involvement of the JREF, and attempt to gain some form of media coverage that relates directly to his claim, and then reapply for the MDC in time for the event on October 31st, 2009. Unfortunately, the event on October 31st, 2010 will occur after the JREF MDC has been discontinued. Whilst I don't speak for the JREF, I imagine that successful completion of the 2009 preliminary test would be strong enough to extend the deadline for The Professor to complete the formal test on October 31st, 2010.

Based on what has been posted here and elsewhere regarding The Professors application, I find it unlikely that the two parties will be able to agree on a testing protocol before the date of the event. I predict that The Professors attempt at the MDC will end with no test at all, and him claiming a win within the magic and paranormal community because the JREF refused to bend to his rules and conditions.

Cheers,

Chris

[yairhol]

There's a time problem here. The Professor said that the event will take place on 10.30.08 & 31.10.08 and that between now and then he'll be on a honeymoon for "a couple of weeks". How does that leave enough time for protocol management?

Here are my $0.02 for The Professor: If you're so sure that you can win the million dollars, think about postponing the honeymoon.

[EHocking]

James Randi started the precursor of the MDC with exposing magicians who claimed they did not do it by tricks but through supernatural forces. He has spent a lifetime haunting Uri Geller. I can easily imagine mr. Randi bending the rules in order to get at yet another magician who cons people with claims of the supernatural.

It will be a battle of wits, and you think James Randi is in risk of losing?Literally, use a thief to catch a thief in this case.

[William Smith]

Well, I know my opinion doesn't mean a hill of beans, but boy, I wish you wouldn't.

All indications are that this is not an honest attempt at proving paranormal phenomena, but that it is instead a stunt, a performance, a willful hoax.

I may be wrong. But given what we've seen so far, it seems to me that bending the rules in this case is unwise.

I second Piggy's post.

[Chris H]

There's a time problem here. The Professor said that the event will take place on 10.30.08 & 31.10.08 and that between now and then he'll be on a honeymoon for "a couple of weeks". How does that leave enough time for protocol management?

Here are my $0.02 for The Professor: If you're so sure that you can win the million dollars, think about postponing the honeymoon.



I think the actual event is scheduled for October 31st. I'm not sure if anything is happening on the 30th. I think the one year window between the tests is a bit cheeky, but if that's the only way that it works, then fair enough.

The Professor got married over the weekend just past. He has said that he will be on his honeymoon for a couple of weeks, so we can probably assume that he'll be back by maybe the 8th of September. This gives about a month and a half for the protocol negotiations. I've not followed a JREF MDC claim from the beginning before, so I'm unaware how long they take, on average. Anyone seen a challenge successfully put together in such a short amount of time before?

Cheers,

Chris

[Jackalgirl]

Hi, Chris --

It depends on the claim. If the claim is very clear and testable, it doesn't take that long, though you'd really have to hoof it to make it in a month and a half.

If the claim is not clear and/or is untestable, it can take a LONG, LONG time to get the negotiations going -- mostly because the claimant is going to have to find something testable to test. If, for example, Mr. Koenig is claiming that a voice will issue forth from the Devil's Chair and that he will demonstrate that it is a paranormal effect, it's going to take a while to work it out. You've probably seen all of the postulated trickery in the thread -- all of that will have to be "defeated" somehow.

Leaving only a month and a half will really be pushing it. I honestly doubt that the claim alone will be properly defined in time. But we'll see.

[steenkh]

Anyone seen a challenge successfully put together in such a short amount of time before?
I believe it has happened. However, it depends very much on the cooperation of the claimant, and in this case, I expect a lengthy process where the JREF wants to enforce controls, and The Professor wants to run his show in his own way.

[rjh01]

In summary, The professor comes back from his honeymoon, takes 2 months to negotiate in bad faith a protocol. Then accuse JREF of stalling because they took too long to reply to his correspondence were rude or were too demanding. Hence they are to blame for missing the deadline.

[Cuddles]

I think the one year window between the tests is a bit cheeky, but if that's the only way that it works, then fair enough.

According to The Professor's own words, there is absolutely no reason for either the date or location to be fixed:

In West Germany ... On the 15th January, 1983

Since The Professor says he wants to replicate things that happened in Germany on the 15th of January, any claim that it is only possible for this to work in Florida in October is clearly false.

[Chris H]

I feel that any, if not several, of the predictions regarding the outcome of this application could come true. It will be interesting to look back in a few months and see which one has. Would that be worthy of the million, by any chance? No? Ah well, it was worth a shot... :)

There are a lot of unanswered questions here, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Cuddles, your theory is a very good one, and I think it should be added to the list of questions for The Professor when he returns from his honeymoon.

As I've already mentioned, I feel that the first hurdle in this application will be the media presence issue. By his own admission, The Professor has not provided adequate proof of media presence relating to his claim, and I think this will cause the application process to grind to a screeching halt. The Professor has claimed that the event only occurs once every year, on October 31st. In my opinion, this makes it impossible to gain media coverage relating to his claim and take the test in 2008.

Chris

[steenkh]

As I've already mentioned, I feel that the first hurdle in this application will be the media presence issue.
I thought he created his own media presence? It was my impression that he has already mentioned the Challenge in several shows.

[Chris H]

I thought he created his own media presence? It was my impression that he has already mentioned the Challenge in several shows.



You are correct. The issue is that The Professor has claimed that all his radio appearances are as a mentalist/conjurer. This would, in theory, make the media presence he has pointed to unacceptable for his MDC application.

Cheers,

Chris

[Chris H]

An associate of mine over at themagiccafe.com has been kind enough to send me the following posts from The Professor. Apparently he's been quite active over there of late, despite being on his honeymoon. I'm still not permitted to post over there, after getting banned for debunking his Bigfoot prediction, but these posts are in the 'Stand The Test' section if anyone is interested in confirming them for us.


www.themagiccafe.com (http://www.themagiccafe.com)
On 2008-08-29 11:16, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Randi/JREF, has my email address and private phone number, and I've received NOTHING (Except the emails saying they have not received anything, even thought I have proof of reciept). I will be more than happy to continue with the challenge protocols, but it seems the JREF will not call, write or even email.
Alexandre is 100% correct!
I have no desire to utilize the JREF forum at this time for obvious reasons. It is not needed and the Mods can change what is said at will.
Yachanain ... You know full well that the JREF has NEVER risked the Million on ANY test. They just wanted to ridicule the lady. If you read the challenge they say that things like this will happen if you decide to take the challenge. Read it sometime!
Edited to remove off topic sample

On 2008-08-29 21:04, Psychic Samurai wrote:
I do wish the JREF would contact me. I would be more than happy to work Randi's three questions into my Devil's Chair Halloween Extravaganza. I would not run like the Canadian lady. In fact .... I WOULD LOVE THE OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!!
It seems that our predictions were correct. He's already blaming the JREF for his challenge not going ahead. Any comment from the JREF regarding The Professors application yet?

[Czarcasm]

"I would be more than happy to work Randi's three questions into my Devil's Chair Halloween Extravaganza."
This isn't a proper challenge-this is a magic show he is putting on, and he's trying to use the JREF for free publicity. And what are "Randi's three questions"?

[Chris H]

I believe the three questions are a reference to the following,

http://www.pressabout.com/index.php/2008/08/pr/tv-medium-kim-dennis-walks-houdini/

Chris

[William Smith]

"I would be more than happy to work Randi's three questions into my Devil's Chair Halloween Extravaganza."
This isn't a proper challenge-this is a magic show he is putting on, and he's trying to use the JREF for free publicity. And what are "Randi's three questions"?

It seems he is already using the JREF for free publicity. Hard to quantify how successful.

This should provide a good example to watch the JREF deal with a (semi-)prominent applicant. Which they announced they would do (http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/32/27/#i1) many moons ago, in case people have forgotten. Granted, in brevity: They probably meant different calibers.

Quote from the link: "[...]She is one of the major villains that the JREF – as previously announced – will be selecting as targets for the million-dollar challenge. I believe that the following will give readers of SWIFT a taste of how we will go about applying the challenge from now on.[...]"

[Temporal Renegade]

Why does it seem that a lot of people who keep saying that they're taking the challenge, planning on taking it, *this close* to being accepted, etc., always seem to think they can rewrite some (or all) of the rules and protocols?

Is reading with comprehension really that hard?

[Jackalgirl]

Wow. How really annoying. Even after RemieV explained to him that she is not in the same physical location as JREF and that they have to forward applications to her and that she hasn't gotten his yet, and even after we explained this to him a couple of extra times, he still persists in claiming that she MUST have his application because he has the receipt that JREF has received it.

Gosh. You'd get to thinking that he's been insincere about this whole thing from the start. Fancy that.

[Czarcasm]

Anything new from The Professor recently?

[chillzero]

He'll be on honeymoon just now, won't he, iirc?

However:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=122607

[steenkh]

He'll be on honeymoon just now, won't he, iirc?

However:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=122607
From the thread:
Mr. Koenig has been informed that, as of yet, his claim does not meet the requirements for a Challenge test as it requires subjective interpretation and does not rely upon objective, quantifiable evidence. However, we are not dismissing his claim outright, and are awaiting responses that will either show us how there will be quantifiable evidence and leave the file open and negotiable, or how there cannot be, in which case the file will be closed.
This is as expected, and the next thing we can expect is to see the Professors rage when when his subjective evidence is not accepted.

[Garrette]

He, Jim Callahan, and a few others at the magic cafe are claiming a victory of sorts regarding a video from the MDC session at DragonCon. They claim that the inconsistencies (and, indeed, a couple of actual inaccuracies on Randi's part which are confusingly corrected by Alison) demonstrate JREF deception.

[TheDoLittle]

He, Jim Callahan, and a few others at the magic cafe are claiming a victory of sorts regarding a video from the MDC session at DragonCon. They claim that the inconsistencies (and, indeed, a couple of actual inaccuracies on Randi's part which are confusingly corrected by Alison) demonstrate JREF deception.


Has any video from that test been made available yet? I'd like to know where it is *IF* it is available.

[Garrette]

Has any video from that test been made available yet? I'd like to know where it is *IF* it is available.Do you mean the planned test of dowsers as a sort of preliminary preliminary?

I don't know, but here's the video Jim Callahan has posted on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMrgr1yR3k0

[chillzero]

Perhaps we can refocus on this specific challenge claim?

[Garrette]

Perhaps we can refocus on this specific challenge claim?Sorry, CZ. I was thinking it sort of was in that The Professor (as Psychic Samurai) is agreeing with Jim Callahan at The Magic Cafe that Randi's and Alison's responses to the questions in this video demonstrate that they were stonewalling his application. I'll drop it now, though.

[RemieV]

He, Jim Callahan, and a few others at the magic cafe are claiming a victory of sorts regarding a video from the MDC session at DragonCon. They claim that the inconsistencies (and, indeed, a couple of actual inaccuracies on Randi's part which are confusingly corrected by Alison) demonstrate JREF deception.

It isn't confusing at all. Randi is not privy to the negotiations with applicants until they reach the final stage, after the first protocol draft is complete. As Koenig has not (even now) reached that stage, Randi does not know the details of his file.

[rjh01]

If anyone wants to discuss Jim Callahan then here is a tag that points to threads that discuss him tag (http://forums.randi.org/tags.php?tag=jim+callahan)

(CZ It might be an idea if you could please move posts 1432 - 149 to one of these threads)

[chillzero]

(CZ It might be an idea if you could please move posts 1432 - 149 to one of these threads)

Not unless there's further derail. Currently those are close enough to topic.

Please keep this back on the protocol from here though.

[Czarcasm]

I think one of the biggest problems with the protocol is that The Professor wants "experts" to interpret whatever sounds come forth from whatever the source is during this experiment. Any person he offers as an expert will, of course, already believe that such phenomena exists. Now, I know that he has already been told that this type of testing is unacceptable, so if he persists, I don't know how we can proceed at all.

[Garrette]

On the Magic Cafe, I have suggested that The Professor return to this board and start a moderated thread to discuss protocol possibilities. He implied he would do so, but left it vague enough that he isn't committed.

The reason I recommend he ask the thread to be moderated is twofold:

1. I really do think several of these threads go off topic or turn into sniping opportunities.

2. To remove any objection he might raise about unfriendly skeptics.

[chillzero]

On the Magic Cafe, I have suggested that The Professor return to this board and start a moderated thread to discuss protocol possibilities. He implied he would do so, but left it vague enough that he isn't committed.

The reason I recommend he ask the thread to be moderated is twofold:

1. I really do think several of these threads go off topic or turn into sniping opportunities.

2. To remove any objection he might raise about unfriendly skeptics.

Garrette,
he already has that set up ... right here.

[Garrette]

Garrette,
he already has that set up ... right here.I understand, but he is also complaining (and I refuted it) that this thread turned into a "Bash and lie about The Professor" thread.

An aside: I started a thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=122791) about the Magic Cafe thread I mentioned regarding the DragonCon video.

[chillzero]

I understand, but he is also complaining (and I refuted it) that this thread turned into a "Bash and lie about The Professor" thread.


which is why I have prompted a few times for people to discuss the protocol.

[William Smith]

which is why I have prompted a few times for people to discuss the protocol.

Until Koenig provides a reply as to how provide falsifiability, a protocol discussion seems moot.

[MattC]

It seems that this claim becomes much simpler to understand if one completely ignores the supernatural claims and treats it as a "guy wants to produce voice effect from nothing" affair. Considering the matter in this light seems to pierce the supernatural veil surrounding the issue at hand.

I confess that my inexperience with this forum leads me to not want to post any questions of my own yet, but it does seem that looking at the natural elements of Mr. Koenig's claim will expedite the process of arriving at a testable condition.

... then again, exactly how much claim is left over if one removes the supernatural is a very good point too.

~ Matt

[Czarcasm]

It seems that this claim becomes much simpler to understand if one completely ignores the supernatural claims and treats it as a "guy wants to produce voice effect from nothing" affair. Considering the matter in this light seems to pierce the supernatural veil surrounding the issue at hand.

I confess that my inexperience with this forum leads me to not want to post any questions of my own yet, but it does seem that looking at the natural elements of Mr. Koenig's claim will expedite the process of arriving at a testable condition.

... then again, exactly how much claim is left over if one removes the supernatural is a very good point too.

~ MattBut the reason for the MDC is to test the actual claims of the testee, not to reinterpret the claim to suit our needs. Unless the claimant himself says that what is being tested is the production of "voices from nothing", and not "voices from the afterlife", then the claimant will have to show that the voices do indeed come from the afterlife.
Of course, saying "I can make noises appear from nowhere!" isn't as good a Halloween stunt as "The dead will speak!", but if The Professor is willing to make this change in his claim, it would help his cause greatly.

Unless, of course, his cause is not to actually take the test.

[steenkh]

It seems that this claim becomes much simpler to understand if one completely ignores the supernatural claims and treats it as a "guy wants to produce voice effect from nothing" affair. Considering the matter in this light seems to pierce the supernatural veil surrounding the issue at hand.
Well put. I wonder how many actually feels that there is anything supernatural involved in this claim - even among his supporters.

Welcome to the forum!

[jimtron]

From post #87, from The Professor: Recording a voice of an entity that is NOT THERE, NOT VISIBLE (Unless someone or video takes a cool photo) Not present in this reality as we know it. Why wouldn't that be Paranormal?
JG
The voice will not be coming from me .. at least not from my voice box. Not physically.

Has the claim gotten more specific than that yet? If this is about recording a voice, I would assume that JREF or a third party would need to supply the recording device; to avoid the claimant bringing in a rigged one. And I think a Faraday Cage was brought up. Obviously wireless transmissions and other devices that could make sound need to be ruled out, as well as a rigged recorder.

I'd love to hear more specifics from The Professor--how exactly this will transpire, and what kinds of controls he will allow. Does he need to be close to the audio recorder? In the same room? Will everyone in the room hear the voice? Can this be done in any room?

Please let us know--I'm glad to hear that the application has been sent and received.

[The Professor]

which is why I have prompted a few times for people to discuss the protocol.

I am more than willing to discuss the Protocol. I have been promised that the bashing by unfriendly skeptics will stop. If this is the case I am willing to proceed. I see the challenges before me and I would appreciate any honest ideas from contributing members in a positive way to insure a "Fair" Test.
I would like to thank the JREF for accepting the media and academic materials, and I am thrilled to continue with the Protocol.
Thanks
Dave

[Czarcasm]

Do you understand that if voices are heard, what they say should be self-evident and not subject to interpretation by experts, partial or impartial?

[jimtron]

I am more than willing to discuss the Protocol. I have been promised that the bashing by unfriendly skeptics will stop. If this is the case I am willing to proceed. I see the challenges before me and I would appreciate any honest ideas from contributing members in a positive way to insure a "Fair" Test.
I would like to thank the JREF for accepting the media and academic materials, and I am thrilled to continue with the Protocol.
Thanks
Dave

Hi Dave:

I am glad that you applied, and look forward to you taking the challenge. Do you have any thoughts regarding my previous post (#160)? I don't think the protocol necessarily has to get too complicated, but you do understand that tricks/effects/illusions etc must be ruled out, right?

To get things moving along, I think it would help a great deal if you would be as specific as possible about what you plan to do. Then we can respond with ideas. And as always, most of us here on the forum don't officially represent the JREF. But many of us are familiar with many past applicants and might have ideas about how to avoid potential problems.

[MattC]

But the reason for the MDC is to test the actual claims of the testee, not to reinterpret the claim to suit our needs. Unless the claimant himself says that what is being tested is the production of "voices from nothing", and not "voices from the afterlife", then the claimant will have to show that the voices do indeed come from the afterlife.

I agree in theory, but that idea has some excellent problems from an operational standpoint. We have no machine to tell us whether or not a voice is indeed from the afterlife or not, so if Mr. Koenig's claim is really that he can summon a voice from the afterlife it will be deemed untestable because it, well, is.

Restricting ourselves to what we do have the knowledge to test seems to lead to a "voice from nothing" affair, or at least something close to it. Mr. Koenig's rather specific date and time at which he can be tested creates many problems, but I am confident himself and RemieV can come up with a workable protocol, though I would remind Mr. Koenig that the protocol must be mutually agreeable before any testing can take place.

~ Matt

[William Smith]

I am more than willing to discuss the Protocol. I have been promised that the bashing by unfriendly skeptics will stop. If this is the case I am willing to proceed.

Hm. Who has promised this?

Another rhetorical question: Would you be willing to forfeit a chance to make a million dollars because of "bashing by unfriendly skeptics"? Seriously?

I recommend - again - that you simply ignore non-constructive posts.

I see the challenges before me and I would appreciate any honest ideas from contributing members in a positive way to insure a "Fair" Test.
I would like to thank the JREF for accepting the media and academic materials, and I am thrilled to continue with the Protocol.
Thanks
Dave

An honest idea: As per the rules you make the claim, you propose a protocol. And you propose a falsifiable test.

How would you do that?

[Pup]

I think somebody in this thread already mentioned it, but depending on exactly what the claim is, hypersonic sound (HSS) would be one thing to rule out. No idea how recording devices react to it, but it would be one way to produce the illusion of a disembodied voice in a particular outdoor location.

[The Professor]

In answer to your question GK, I have been told this was a Friendly forum and not just the opposite. In fact, if you will take a look at the top of the page it says
James Randi Educational Foundation
A place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a "Friendly" way
As to your "Honest idea", I hope that ALL of your ideas are honest, aren't they? :)

I am looking forward to working with RemieV on an acceptable protocol as MattC and I are both convinced of this. Thanks Matt!

I also do not see where I've limited myself to "Voices from the dead" although that is the general assumption as to who someone might hear from on 10/31. Would you like to hear exactly as I'd like the process to unfold (Might be lengthy) or should we take it one section at a time?
Thanks
Dave

[0m3g4]

[...]Would you like to hear exactly as I'd like the process to unfold[...]
Well, I'd guess that's what you *have* to do - sooner or later - in order for any protocol negotiations to take place. :)

[Czarcasm]

Will what the voices say be clear to anyone that listens, or will experts be necessary to interpret them?

[William Smith]

In answer to your question GK, I have been told this was a Friendly forum and not just the opposite. In fact, if you will take a look at the top of the page it says
James Randi Educational Foundation
A place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a "Friendly" way
As to your "Honest idea", I hope that ALL of your ideas are honest, aren't they? :)

I am looking forward to working with RemieV on an acceptable protocol as MattC and I are both convinced of this. Thanks Matt!

I also do not see where I've limited myself to "Voices from the dead" although that is the general assumption as to who someone might hear from on 10/31. Would you like to hear exactly as I'd like the process to unfold (Might be lengthy) or should we take it one section at a time?
Thanks
Dave

You introduced the "honest idea", remember? Please refrain from peytonstrawmanning me.

Now for the inquiry you ignored: How do you propose to allow for falsifiability in your protocol proposal, The Professor?

[jimtron]

Dave: Please do tell us the entire process, and please be as specific as possible.

This is a friendly forum for the most part, but sometimes people do get frustrated. If you look through this particular MCD forum, you'll see that many people have made claims which were vague and/or untestable. Many claimants never get around to being specific, or coming up with a claim that is actually testable, even after pages and pages of questions and answers.

So if you are sincere about the challenge, please tell us exactly what you plan to do, and understand that JREF isn't going to give away the million to someone performing a magic or mentalism effect. So you're demonstration must allow for a protocol where it's indisputably that whatever is happening (voice or whatever) is happening for paranormal reasons--not because of a trick or special effect.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about it.

[steenkh]

I also do not see where I've limited myself to "Voices from the dead" although that is the general assumption as to who someone might hear from on 10/31. Would you like to hear exactly as I'd like the process to unfold (Might be lengthy) or should we take it one section at a time?
How about simply telling us how you suggest that something paranormal can be demonstrated that will not call for a vote by experts if they could hear a voice or not, or if that voice was disembodied or not.

I have no idea how much control you have over the voices, but it might help if the voices could say something that would clearly demonstrate the paranormal, such as revealing what is inside the famous locker of James Randi.

Have you made any testing yourself of the expected phenomena, or will it be a first for you? If you have, what controls did you use?

[fromdownunder]

I also do not see where I've limited myself to "Voices from the dead" although that is the general assumption as to who someone might hear from on 10/31.

If you actually told us what you are going to do, and what the end result will be, and how this is a paranormal event, the speculation as to what you "might" be going to do would end immediately.


Would you like to hear exactly as I'd like the process to unfold (Might be lengthy) or should we take it one section at a time?
Thanks
Dave

That is what people have been asking for throughout this thread. Instead of semi-regularly telling us that you will (or might) tell people what you are going to do, why not just cut to the chase,and tell us exactly what is going to happen? Again, this will end speculation from the members of this Board

Norm

[Piggy]

I also do not see where I've limited myself to "Voices from the dead"

Then if you don't mind my asking, what exactly are you claiming you will do?

Are you claiming you can perform a trick? Or that you are going to provide evidence of something paranormal?

This distinction is critical.

Unfortunately, when you say things like "I... do not see where I've limited myself", it sounds like you're intentionally dodging, and that you're out to perform a trick rather than to honestly demonstrate anything.

Now please understand, I don't mean that to be in any way "unfriendly". I'm just laying things out on the table.

although that is the general assumption as to who someone might hear from on 10/31.

Please understand that this is irrelevant.

Any "assumption" is entirely outside the scope of the challenge.

Those assumptions don't matter. They can be dispensed with.

The question is: Are you intending to show evidence of a paranormal event or activity? And if so, what is that event or activity, and how will you conclusively demonstrate it?

Would you like to hear exactly as I'd like the process to unfold (Might be lengthy) or should we take it one section at a time?

It doesn't really matter how lengthy it is, but yes, I'm sure all of us would be very interested in a precise description of what you intend to do.

Provided, that is, that what you intend to do actually will demonstrate some paranormal ability or event.

Thanks.

[Czarcasm]

Would it be possible to have this experiment at a different time and date than the one you've proposed, and if not, why not?

[The Professor]

Thanks for all of your comments :)
And ....If you think I am going to sit on the Devils Chair in the Lake Helen Cemetery at Midnight and do a Sponge Bunny routine, don't you think Randi would catch on? PLEEZE!
I will post the entire procedure in detail. I will ignore those with Bad Attitudes from the Get Go. This needs to be Fair all the way around. This is supposed to be about the upcoming test, correct? Randi has stated numerous times that this process will not be difficult.
Firstly .. THE PLACE
The place is the Cemetery at Lake Helen Florida. It is actually closer to the city of Cassadaga and many people refer to it as theirs. It isn't, even though many of their former residents are buried there. The particular grave site is referred to as The Devil's Chair. It is a brick chair designed to be between two graves, placed there for meditation and other purposes. There are three similar chairs in total. This is the one on the uppermost part of the hill. The chair is at least 300 yards from the nearest residence just off hand. It is towards the center of the cemetery. There seem to be no other buildings in the immediate area. (I haven't searched the woods on the far side)
The Chair is not hidden in any way. It is in plain view from all angles.

[Czarcasm]

Concerning the upcoming test: Will the results of this test be self-evident, or will there need for interpretation by experts?

[William Smith]

Concerning the upcoming test: Will the results of this test be self-evident, or will there need for interpretation by experts?

You do not need to answer me, or the people posting in this thread.

I quote from the thread in the Challenge Application Forum: (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4004070#post4004070)

"[...]Mr. Koenig has been informed that, as of yet, his claim does not meet the requirements for a Challenge test as it requires subjective interpretation and does not rely upon objective, quantifiable evidence. However, we are
not dismissing his claim outright, and are awaiting responses that will either show us how there will be quantifiable evidence and leave the file open and negotiable, or how there cannot be, in which case the file will be closed.[...]"

You will surely need to answer the JREF: How do you propose to allow for falsifiability in your protocol proposal, The Professor?

[The Professor]

Many experts will be used to assure the test is fair and accurate. The outcome will be self-evident.

[steenkh]

Many experts will be used to assure the test is fair and accurate. The outcome will be self-evident.
The self-evident outcome certainly sounds encouraging!

What will the purpose of the experts be? Assistance in hammering out the details, or will they have a practical purpose during the test?

[Czarcasm]

1. Will these experts be used to design the test, or interpret the results of the test?
2. Will experts that do not already believe in the existance of voices from the afterlife that can affect electronic devices be acceptable to you?

[Piggy]

Well, now we know where the applicant wants the test held.

I'm looking forward to an answer regarding what the paranormal power or event is, and how exactly it will be demonstrated.

[MattC]

I... confess to having my doubts about this experiment, the confusing reports from both sides are producing a lot of white noise, making it difficult to ascertain what's really going on.

Mr. Koenig, I fear this talk of "experts" will do your claim more harm than good. You must surely be aware that these experts whom you intend to produce must have their credentials analyzed and approved by the JREF before you can consider having them present, and I must warn you that there are no degrees offered in paranormal events from accredited universities that I'm aware of.

I want to be sure, for my own peace of mind, that you're aware of one thing, and if you take nothing else from me make it this - they are not going to be nice about one million dollars. They will happily work with you to design a mutually-acceptable protocol, but they will not freely accede to nonessential demands.

As you say you are willing to discuss the protocol and I trust your word, I would strongly suggest you completely abandon discussions of the protocol here and confine yourself to discussing it with RemieV, as it's her opinion that ultimately matters. Leave it to her to post records of your correspondence if she chooses, if you want this to occur I would suggest politely asking her to do so. Be aware, however, that once you allow her to post correspondence publicly and she does so, it becomes public knowledge.

~ MattC

[petre]

Thanks for all of your comments :)
And ....If you think I am going to sit on the Devils Chair in the Lake Helen Cemetery at Midnight and do a Sponge Bunny routine, don't you think Randi would catch on? PLEEZE!
I will post the entire procedure in detail. I will ignore those with Bad Attitudes from the Get Go. This needs to be Fair all the way around. This is supposed to be about the upcoming test, correct? Randi has stated numerous times that this process will not be difficult.
Firstly .. THE PLACE
The place is the Cemetery at Lake Helen Florida. It is actually closer to the city of Cassadaga and many people refer to it as theirs. It isn't, even though many of their former residents are buried there. The particular grave site is referred to as The Devil's Chair. It is a brick chair designed to be between two graves, placed there for meditation and other purposes. There are three similar chairs in total. This is the one on the uppermost part of the hill. The chair is at least 300 yards from the nearest residence just off hand. It is towards the center of the cemetery. There seem to be no other buildings in the immediate area. (I haven't searched the woods on the far side)
The Chair is not hidden in any way. It is in plain view from all angles.

The City of Cassadaga appears to have taken an active role in determining policy with respect to the Devil's Chair (stopping vandals on Halloween, setting up tours, etc). If this location is to be used, it would seem wise to at least have an open line of contact with the city even as you start to negotiate the protocol (the JREF will likely suggest the same if it has not already).

From their recent treatment of the site, I don't expect they will have a problem with allowing the test there (a bit of free publicity rarely hurts a city) so long as nothing in the protocol is likely to damage the site.

It would also seem likely the JREF will be able to find a representative in the area to observe and record the test. I see little more that would need to be discussed about the location and would be contented to examine further details of your proposal (I am especially encouraged by your declaration of a self-evident protocol forthcoming).

[Marcus]

Many experts will be used to assure the test is fair and accurate. The outcome will be self-evident.

Thanks for posting here again, The Professor. Could you explain to us how exactly the results will be self-evident? A judgement call by a group of experts obviously won't qualify.

Your responses to date have been very vague. That is not a slam, I'm just saying that answering the questions psople are asking you would be to your benefit.

[Piggy]

I would strongly suggest you completely abandon discussions of the protocol here and confine yourself to discussing it with RemieV, as it's her opinion that ultimately matters.

I disagree. If someone is making an honest effort to get it right, a forum discussion can be a good way of avoiding errors and saving lots of time and aggravation later on.

[The Professor]

I contacted the Lake Helen Police Department before I even applied. The Lake Helen Cemetery is a public place and open to me from 7AM to 7 PM. It is legal for us to be there during those times. I will have to ask special permission to be there at Midnight and the chances are very good I will be denied that, but I am willing to adapt and adjust to another time if I have to.
So are there any problems remaining about The Place?
Thanks for the help.
Dave
If not, I will submit it to RemieV.

[The Professor]

The Cemetery is driving distance from the JREF. Not a short drive, but doable.

[The Professor]

The experts will help solve many problems. They will be allowed to assemble/build the scanners and recording devices used in order to remove any idea that "I" might gimmick the recorders or ITC equipment myself. This seems fair as both believers and non-believers (If that's what we can call them) can be used as it makes little difference since they will be able to check each others work. Many methods and designs for construction of these devices have been on line for quite a while.

[The Professor]

I will not waste time re-posting things I've already posted.

[Czarcasm]

For the purpose of finding EVP experts that both sides find acceptable, are there any out there that do not already believe that said voices come from beyond the grave?

[Azrael 5]

For the purpose of finding EVP experts that both sides find acceptable, are there any out there that do not already believe that said voices come from beyond the grave?

I'm confused.How can there be experts for an unproven phenomenon?

[Czarcasm]

I'm confused.How can there be experts for an unproven phenomenon?Exactly.
The Professor, who exactly will determine whether or not your experiment is successful?

[Piggy]

I think any discussion of any "experts" or any setup is premature at this point since we still have not heard an explanation of exactly what the paranormal ability or event is supposed to be, nor exactly how it is proposed that this paranormal ability or event will be shown to exist.

Given that, it makes no sense to jump forward to a discussion of what equipment will be used and who will set it up.

Please, let's take these points in logical order, because nothing can be decided about the setup before anything is known about what the equipment is supposed to be involved in doing.

[Gr8wight]

This is not a protocol discussion, this is a performance. I second the recommendation that The Professor immediately suspend discussion here, and communicate only with Remie until such time as he submits a claim that is actually testable under the challenge rules. To date, he has not done so. Protocol discussions are worthless when Mr. Koenig has yet to actually adequately describe his claim to the JREF.

[Marcus]

You seem to be avoiding almost all questions asked of you. One could infer from the small amount of information in your last post that you will be relying on a subjective interpetation of instrument readings, in which case it is unlikely to fly. Perhaps this is the same protocol which JREF has already deemed too subjective to test. A good use of this forum would be to develop a protocol which might be more acceptable to JREF.

[Czarcasm]

I contacted the Lake Helen Police Department before I even applied. The Lake Helen Cemetery is a public place and open to me from 7AM to 7 PM. It is legal for us to be there during those times. I will have to ask special permission to be there at Midnight and the chances are very good I will be denied that, but I am willing to adapt and adjust to another time if I have to.
So are there any problems remaining about The Place?
Thanks for the help.
Dave
If not, I will submit it to RemieV..1. They might see a difference in being at the cemetary during public hours, and holding an event involving people and possibly recording equipment during public hours. Can we assume that you discussed what exactly you planned to be doing with the lake helen Police Department?
2. Could you provide links to the scanners and ITC equipment you propose to use? This could clear up any misunderstanding on our part.

[Czarcasm]

I think any discussion of any "experts" or any setup is premature at this point since we still have not heard an explanation of exactly what the paranormal ability or event is supposed to be, nor exactly how it is proposed that this paranormal ability or event will be shown to exist.

Given that, it makes no sense to jump forward to a discussion of what equipment will be used and who will set it up.

Please, let's take these points in logical order, because nothing can be decided about the setup before anything is known about what the equipment is supposed to be involved in doing.I'd love to, but that is only possible if The Professor Tells us upfront what he proposes to do. We can only react to what little information he doles out-wild speculation on what he might propose is totally useless.

[Piggy]

I'd love to, but that is only possible if The Professor Tells us upfront what he proposes to do. We can only react to what little information he doles out-wild speculation on what he might propose is totally useless.

Agreed. I'm not asking us to speculate. I'm asking The Professor to tell us what the event/ability is and how he proposes that it can be demonstrated before jumping the gun and trying to discuss equipment and experts.

First, he has to tell us what the paranormal ability or event is.

Then he has to explain how it can be demonstrated.

Only then should he start discussing any specifics regarding equipment and such.

So far, he's only said where the event might take place, which is really nothing at all.

[The Professor]

For those of you who have not read it here is the Official Statement mailed to the JREF several weeks ago via certified mail. They received it by the Monday after it was mailed before 1:49 PM. Verified by the US Postal Service.

I. I. David Koenig. will contact a Paranormal Entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and
understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked and answered. This communication
will be recorded with Instrumental TransCommunication and Electronic Voice Phenomenon
(ITC and EVP) methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact in
addition to Still Photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify
any unusual presences at the location.
II. This Demonstration will take Place 10/31/2008 at Lake Helen Florida. I will make contact on
that date as a preliminary test and then again on 10/31/2009 to complete the Million Dollar
Challenge , unless the JREF would like to forgo the preliminary test and go straight to the
Challenge on 10/31/2008. I would prefer to go straight to the Million Dollar Challenge and not
waste any time.


As you know I won't chase rabbits here. I have a gig just like most of you and my time is also at a premium. Perhaps you didn't read this before so I will post it again. I don't want to make a habit of going over materials that has already been provided. If you compare this to what is posted on the JREF by Alison Smith you will see a big difference. I am trying to see what we can agree upon right away and work on the other issues promptly as we proceed.
I am avoiding no pertinent questions. I am trying to hammer down the WHEN, and WHERE issues first since we are so close to agreement on those two.
I do want to clarify the WHAT as it seems the JREF wants me to eliminate the use of ITC, which I find as the cutting edge in Paranormal research today. I also do not want to be limited to "GHOST" or pushed in that direction, since the JREF doesn't believe in anything like that. I don't understand why the changes in the words I've used on my claim were made.
I am trying to find out.
Thanks for all of your help!
Dave

[The Professor]

Here are designs for scanning devices as requested. I'll list more later. The first links are the easiest and least expensive to construct.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8iJjEq5Kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwvjhHd09hM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUOkWGrz94s&feature=related
Urban legends skeptic video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgRyB-VFSGo
More schematics
http://www.worlditc.org/k_06_spiricom.htm
My favorite!
http://www.worlditc.org/c_04_s_bridge_19.htm

The celebrated American inventor Thomas Edison, whose parents were Spiritualists, worked on an electronic device that sought to facilitate contact between the living and the dead. In a 1920 issue of Scientific American he declared:

“…if personality exists after what we call death, it is reasonable to conclude that those who leave this Earth would like to communicate with those they have left here… I am inclined to believe that our personality hereafter will be able to affect matter. If this reasoning be correct, then, if we can evolve an instrument so delicate as to be affected or moved or manipulated… by our personality as it survives in the next life, such an instrument, when made available, ought to record something."

Alas, Edison had not completed the machine by the time of his death in 1931, and he didn't leave behind his project notes (or a number to reach him at!).

Some feel that Frank's Box is this design.
http://www.keyportparanormal.com/ghostboxschematics.html
http://www.spiritsearchsociety.com/theghostbox.pdf

Feel free to make one yourself and you will be more than welcome at the demonstration!

[xinit]

I do want to clarify the WHAT as it seems the JREF wants me to eliminate the use of ITC, which I find as the cutting edge in Paranormal research today. I also do not want to be limited to "GHOST" or pushed in that direction, since the JREF doesn't believe in anything like that. I don't understand why the changes in the words I've used on my claim were made.

If not a ghost, then what? Would voices transmitted from a remote radio to a reciever hidden on or about your person be included in the phenomenon that you would consider a success?

I don't see the word 'ghost' in the MDC post from RemieV...

forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=122607

[Czarcasm]

I. I. David Koenig. will contact a Paranormal Entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and
understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked and answered. This communication
will be recorded with Instrumental TransCommunication and Electronic Voice Phenomenon
(ITC and EVP) methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact in
addition to Still Photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify
any unusual presences at the location.
II. This Demonstration will take Place 10/31/2008 at Lake Helen Florida. I will make contact on
that date as a preliminary test and then again on 10/31/2009 to complete the Million Dollar
Challenge , unless the JREF would like to forgo the preliminary test and go straight to the
Challenge on 10/31/2008. I would prefer to go straight to the Million Dollar Challenge and not
waste any time.
1. You will communicate with it in what way? Verbal? Electronic? Visual?
2 What would you consider to be a "reasonable question"? Could you give us an example of an "unreasonable question"?
3. Have these ITC and EVP been tested by people that do not already believe in this phenomena? Have they every been doubled-blind tested for this specific purpose?
4. What visual phenomena do you expect to occur?
5. "Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify any unusual presences at the location." What devices, and exactly will count as an "unusual presence"?
Unless you specific what you are looking for, this will sound like a fishing trip.

[jimtron]

David, what is a paranormal entity, and how will we know you are contacting it? Please tell us exactly how it will manifest itself (a voice?), and more importantly, how it will be unquestionably paranormal, and not a natural phenomenon.

What is it that will be seen in the video and stills that will be undeniably paranormal?

I think right now the time and place is less important than hearing how you will prove that you are contacting a paranormal entity.

[Czarcasm]

A lot of unspecified equipment will be used in unspecified ways by unspecified "experts" to record unspecified results which will be interpreted by...??
This sounds more like a "best of" episode "Ghost Hunter" than a proper protocol. Any specifics would be greatly appreciated.

[Gr8wight]

For those of you who have not read it here is the Official Statement mailed to the JREF several weeks ago via certified mail. They received it by the Monday after it was mailed before 1:49 PM. Verified by the US Postal Service.

I. I. David Koenig. will contact a Paranormal Entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and
understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked and answered. This communication
will be recorded with Instrumental TransCommunication and Electronic Voice Phenomenon
(ITC and EVP) methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact in
addition to Still Photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify
any unusual presences at the location.
II. This Demonstration will take Place 10/31/2008 at Lake Helen Florida. I will make contact on
that date as a preliminary test and then again on 10/31/2009 to complete the Million Dollar
Challenge , unless the JREF would like to forgo the preliminary test and go straight to the
Challenge on 10/31/2008. I would prefer to go straight to the Million Dollar Challenge and not
waste any time.

Yes, David, we've seen that. You have been informed by the JREF that, as a statement of claim, it is insufficient. I believe Remie's exact words were:

...his claim does not meet the requirements for a Challenge test as it requires subjective interpretation and does not rely upon objective, quantifiable evidence.

So, your claim, as you have stated it, is currently useless as a starting point in any discussion of a potential test protocol. You need to sharpen your pencil and try again. I'll give you some advice. Think detail. Lots and lots of specific detail. Exactly what will you do, and exactly what will observers see, hear, smell, taste, or feel? In exactly what way will the instruments you plan to use react? In what way will those instrumental reactions support your claim?

Remember, at no time will it be allowed to have a person judge whether or not you have been successful. Even James Randi himself is not allowed to say, "well, in my opinion, this test is a success (or failure)." If the outcome of the test cannot be made self evident, then the claim is untestable.

[Loss Leader]

Yes, yes, yes ...

What are you going to do while you sit on the chair?

Demanding that the JREF agree to the When and Where before hearing what you plan to do while you are there seems a bit ... stagey. I don't understand how anybody can decide that a place is fair absent an understanding of what you are going to do at that place.

Please lay out your entire protocol in as much detail as possible. Please don't do it in pieces.

Otherwise, please consider the answer to the When and Where of your experiment to be: "Provisionally, yes, subject to learning what you will be doing."

[Piggy]

For those of you who have not read it here is the Official Statement mailed to the JREF several weeks ago via certified mail. They received it by the Monday after it was mailed before 1:49 PM. Verified by the US Postal Service.

I. I. David Koenig. will contact a Paranormal Entity and communicate with it in an intelligent and
understandable manner. Reasonable questions will be asked and answered. This communication
will be recorded with Instrumental TransCommunication and Electronic Voice Phenomenon
(ITC and EVP) methods. Conventional video recording will also be used to verify contact in
addition to Still Photography. Other scientific devices will also be used to determine and verify
any unusual presences at the location.
II. This Demonstration will take Place 10/31/2008 at Lake Helen Florida. I will make contact on
that date as a preliminary test and then again on 10/31/2009 to complete the Million Dollar
Challenge , unless the JREF would like to forgo the preliminary test and go straight to the
Challenge on 10/31/2008. I would prefer to go straight to the Million Dollar Challenge and not
waste any time.


As you know I won't chase rabbits here. I have a gig just like most of you and my time is also at a premium. Perhaps you didn't read this before so I will post it again. I don't want to make a habit of going over materials that has already been provided. If you compare this to what is posted on the JREF by Alison Smith you will see a big difference. I am trying to see what we can agree upon right away and work on the other issues promptly as we proceed.
I am avoiding no pertinent questions. I am trying to hammer down the WHEN, and WHERE issues first since we are so close to agreement on those two.
I do want to clarify the WHAT as it seems the JREF wants me to eliminate the use of ITC, which I find as the cutting edge in Paranormal research today. I also do not want to be limited to "GHOST" or pushed in that direction, since the JREF doesn't believe in anything like that. I don't understand why the changes in the words I've used on my claim were made.
I am trying to find out.
Thanks for all of your help!
Dave

Post 200 clarifies nothing.

Neither does this because we already know that it doesn't meet the standard.

If you do not "clarify the WHAT" then you are not making a paranormal claim. You are merely announcing a performance.

And JREF has made no conclusions regarding ghosts and such. The $1mUS is offered to anyone who could show valid evidence of such things.

If you refuse to say what your paranormal event or ability is, you cannot win the $1m, plain and simple.

[The Professor]

Yes, David, we've seen that. You have been informed by the JREF that, as a statement of claim, it is insufficient. I believe Remie's exact words were:



So, your claim, as you have stated it, is currently useless as a starting point in any discussion of a potential test protocol. You need to sharpen your pencil and try again. I'll give you some advice. Think detail. Lots and lots of specific detail. Exactly what will you do, and exactly what will observers see, hear, smell, taste, or feel? In exactly what way will the instruments you plan to use react? In what way will those instrumental reactions support your claim?

Remember, at no time will it be allowed to have a person judge whether or not you have been successful. Even James Randi himself is not allowed to say, "well, in my opinion, this test is a success (or failure)." If the outcome of the test cannot be made self evident, then the claim is untestable.

Thank you G8
That brings up a great point. I was only allowed two paragraphs to sum up my claim on the application. I did just that. As the protocol continues I was told I'd be able to elaborate, which is what I'm doing Now.
Now is the time to add details and I will.
In general people whant to know What, When and Where and I'm doing my best to arrive at these agreement and have a fair test. I feel the When and Where is covered at this point.
I was asked about the instrumentation used and I've provided links to many of the devices.
I will continue to answer these questions as time permits.
As far as James Randi being the ultimate witness, it's Amazing that you brought that up.
Here is an email I'd recently sent to Alison at the JREF about that very idea.

"Thanks Alison for you response!
I would love to alter my claim to fit the standards of the claims accepted for the Million Dollar Challenge. Where are these standards listed so I can conform?
Isn't how the test will be objective and quantifiable part of the protocol? I'm a bit confused about this. I have been getting some great advice from the JREF Forum. Do you recommend I continue receiving their help or not?
My thoughts were to allow James Randi Himself to be the final word on what was acceptable as to the outcome, good or bad.
Thanks again.
Dave"

What a coincidence!
I'd like to thank all those with good ideas for sharing. I am working with Alison on this as best I can.
I intend on using many researchers who are Skeptics themselves in this test to assure fairness. I have invited you also.
Thanks
Dave

[Biscuit]

While you work on the Protocol with JREF and clarify the WHEN and WHERE I believe there are many people here that still want to know the WHAT.

What are you planning to contact?

[Piggy]

Thank you G8
That brings up a great point. I was only allowed two paragraphs to sum up my claim on the application. I did just that. As the protocol continues I was told I'd be able to elaborate, which is what I'm doing Now.
Now is the time to add details and I will.
In general people whant to know What, When and Where and I'm doing my best to arrive at these agreement and have a fair test. I feel the When and Where is covered at this point.
I was asked about the instrumentation used and I've provided links to many of the devices.
I will continue to answer these questions as time permits.
As far as James Randi being the ultimate witness, it's Amazing that you brought that up.
Here is an email I'd recently sent to Alison at the JREF about that very idea.

"Thanks Alison for you response!
I would love to alter my claim to fit the standards of the claims accepted for the Million Dollar Challenge. Where are these standards listed so I can conform?
Isn't how the test will be objective and quantifiable part of the protocol? I'm a bit confused about this. I have been getting some great advice from the JREF Forum. Do you recommend I continue receiving their help or not?
My thoughts were to allow James Randi Himself to be the final word on what was acceptable as to the outcome, good or bad.
Thanks again.
Dave"

What a coincidence!
I'd like to thank all those with good ideas for sharing. I am working with Alison on this as best I can.
I intend on using many researchers who are Skeptics themselves in this test to assure fairness. I have invited you also.
Thanks
Dave

Since your first proposal was unacceptable on the grounds that it involved a judgment....

Perhaps it might be a good idea to back off a bit and first define, very simply, what it is you claim can be done in order to be sure it's actually paranormal?

For instance, the claim "I can move objects purely by thinking about moving them" would be a good summary of a paranormal claim.

On the other hand "I can contact a paranormal entity" is too vague. Nobody knows what a "paranormal entity" is.

But "I can set up some equipment that will make a voice appear on a magnetic tape" is not a paranormal claim, because it describes a show trick and has no discernible claim to anything clearly paranormal.

So let's get down to basics, please.

What is the paranormal claim that we're beginning with here?

We can get around to how to test it after you explain that.

[jimtron]

Dave:

Here's Million Dollar Challenge FAQ--if you haven't read it, I would highly recommend you do: http://www.randi.org/joom/million-dollar-challenge-faq.html

Also, we're not trying to give you a hard time here, we're tying to encourage you to come up with an acceptable protocol. I would urge you to look through this specific forum (MDC forum) and read threads where past applicants were trying to come up with protocols.

It is in your best interest to carefully read all the rules, and discussions with past applicants. James Randi (AFAIK) is not the person who judges whether a challenge is a success or failure. That is agreed upon in advance by the applicant and JREF. The outcome must be self evident, as has been mentioned many times on this thread. So it's not a matter of Randi or your experts making a subjective analysis of the results. It's more fair that way.

Here are a few excerpts from the Challenge application page. (http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-application.html):

From #1 ..."Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result."

6. In all cases, applicant will be required to perform a preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member or representative of the JREF staff can attend. This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test, using the agreed-upon protocol. To date, no applicant has passed the preliminary test, and this has eliminated the need for formal testing in those cases. There is no limit on the number of times an applicant may re-apply, but re-application can take place only after 12 months have elapsed since the completion of the preliminary test.

15. EVERY APPLICANT MUST AGREE UPON WHAT WILL CONSTITUTE A CONCLUSION THAT, ON THE OCCASION OF THE PRELIMINARY OR THE FORMAL TEST, HE OR SHE DID OR DID NOT DEMONSTRATE THE CLAIMED ABILITY OR POWER.

PLEASE: Do not burden us with theories, philosophical observations, previous examples, anecdotal evidence or other comments! We are only interested in an actual demonstration.

IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. Also, JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc.

[Gr8wight]

My thoughts were to allow James Randi Himself to be the final word on what was acceptable as to the outcome, good or bad.

You misread my post. The point is, by the very rules of the challenge, no judge, not even Randi himself, is allowed to decide if the test is a success or not. The results must be self-evident, and what constitutes success and failure laid out plainly in the protocol.

Examine the thread about Pavel's protocol negotiations. In that test, Pavel will choose which envelope given to him contains a specific target image. The other evelope (or envelopes) will not conatin any image. Pavel and the JREF will agree ahead of time how many correct choices will constitute a successful test. In that test, either Pavel chooses the envelope containing the target image, or he doesn't. Either he makes enough correct choices or he doesn't. There is no judge.

It is entirely possible that your claim cannot be tested in this manner. If a suitable protocol that does not require subjective judging of success or failure cannot be agreed upon, the JREF will declare your claim to be untestable. They will not be saying your claim is unsupported, or untrue; only that it is unable to be tested within the rules of the JREF one million dollar challenge.

[The Professor]

As to the what I have a couple of minutes before I'm off on a gig, so here we go.
As to the people involved, firstly ...

I will be seated on the Devil's Chair. There will be several "interpreters" around me. These are people who speak more than one language. They will be at least efficiently bi-lingual. Each one is fluent in a different language. English, and the language of their expertise. I suggest, Spanish, German, Russian, French, and Portuguese (there may be more as time allows).
There will also be "the technicians" or those who are handling the electronic devices and anything technical (I would be delighted to use some of the JREF Forum members for any of these positions).
I will speak into a microphone and "broadcast" into the various frequencies of the spectrum.
The first question I ask will be " What is your name?" in each of the agreed upon languages.

Hope that gets you started. I am gone for a few on a gig. Gotta run!
Thanks for your help. I'm sure that together we can come up with a fair protocol.
Thanks again
Dave

[Pantaz]

. . .
I will speak into a microphone and "broadcast" into the various frequencies of the spectrum.
. . .

Gee, could you be just a little less vague?
It sounds like you want to use a radio transmitter. This implies the response will also be via radio -- I'm sure that's not correct... I really hope that's not correct...

[jimtron]

As to the what I have a couple of minutes before I'm off on a gig, so here we go.
As to the people involved, firstly ...

I will be seated on the Devil's Chair. There will be several "interpreters" around me. These are people who speak more than one language. They will be at least efficiently bi-lingual. Each one is fluent in a different language. English, and the language of their expertise. I suggest, Spanish, German, Russian, French, and Portuguese (there may be more as time allows).
There will also be "the technicians" or those who are handling the electronic devices and anything technical (I would be delighted to use some of the JREF Forum members for any of these positions).
I will speak into a microphone and "broadcast" into the various frequencies of the spectrum.
The first question I ask will be " What is your name?" in each of the agreed upon languages.

Hope that gets you started. I am gone for a few on a gig. Gotta run!
Thanks for your help. I'm sure that together we can come up with a fair protocol.
Thanks again
Dave

Please get right to the paranormal part. Broadcasting a voice and speaking foreign languages obviously are not paranormal. What exactly is the paranormal angle, and how will you prove that it is in fact a supernatural event, and not a natural one?

[Piggy]

As to the what I have a couple of minutes before I'm off on a gig, so here we go.
As to the people involved, firstly ...

I will be seated on the Devil's Chair. There will be several "interpreters" around me. These are people who speak more than one language. They will be at least efficiently bi-lingual. Each one is fluent in a different language. English, and the language of their expertise. I suggest, Spanish, German, Russian, French, and Portuguese (there may be more as time allows).
There will also be "the technicians" or those who are handling the electronic devices and anything technical (I would be delighted to use some of the JREF Forum members for any of these positions).
I will speak into a microphone and "broadcast" into the various frequencies of the spectrum.
The first question I ask will be " What is your name?" in each of the agreed upon languages.

Hope that gets you started. I am gone for a few on a gig. Gotta run!
Thanks for your help. I'm sure that together we can come up with a fair protocol.
Thanks again
Dave

I'm afraid it does not get us started because it does not describe anything remotely paranormal.

Anyone can sit in the Devil's Chair with bilingual speakers around them and speak into a microphone and broadcast what they are saying.

That is not paranormal.

Please, if you're serious about this -- if this is not a performance, a mere act -- then you will need to say what you will do that is paranormal.

So far you haven't done this, so you don't appear to actually be attempting to participate in the challenge.

[Czarcasm]

Lots of electronic equipment? Interpreters? Technicians?
Who is paying for all this?
What do you mean by "broadcast"?
What in the world do you mean by "spectrum"?

A simple request-please drop the show lingo and the teaser revelations and just write a simple paragraph on what you plan to do. Make it simple, if possible. It now sounds as if you are putting on a show for your fans, and the JREF has been invited along to give an air of legitimacy.
An important question-if the JREF decides that what you are doing is not feasible, do you still plan on going on with this elaborate demonstration? Simply put, is this a proper application for the MDC, or a show?

[William Smith]

...
Hope that gets you started.
...

This ordeal looks very much like a publicity stunt for Koenig. Would ignoring him mean ignorance?

Too bad the JREF does not have the resources to publish the correspondence with Koenig.

Smart money predicts no test will happen.

[petre]

As to the what I have a couple of minutes before I'm off on a gig, so here we go.
As to the people involved, firstly ...

I will be seated on the Devil's Chair. There will be several "interpreters" around me. These are people who speak more than one language. They will be at least efficiently bi-lingual. Each one is fluent in a different language. English, and the language of their expertise. I suggest, Spanish, German, Russian, French, and Portuguese (there may be more as time allows).
There will also be "the technicians" or those who are handling the electronic devices and anything technical (I would be delighted to use some of the JREF Forum members for any of these positions).
I will speak into a microphone and "broadcast" into the various frequencies of the spectrum.
The first question I ask will be " What is your name?" in each of the agreed upon languages.

Hope that gets you started. I am gone for a few on a gig. Gotta run!
Thanks for your help. I'm sure that together we can come up with a fair protocol.
Thanks again
Dave

1. Sitting in the Devil's Chair is not paranormal.
2. Being surrounded by bilingual persons is not paranormal.
3. Being in the presence of technically inclined individuals is not paranormal.
4. Speaking into a microphone (even in multiple languages) is not paranormal.

I'm affraid your claim as currently stated is not paranormal. It cannot be deteremined if any of these requirements are necessary, unimportant, or even detrimental to your parnormal claim until you make it known.

[Azrael 5]

So Professor youask "What is your name?"

A fuzzy whistly hissy crackle is interpreted to be "Bob"

You expect that to be proof?! I doubt that is going to win anything.

[Loss Leader]

I will be seated on the Devil's Chair. There will be several "interpreters" around me. These are people who speak more than one language. They will be at least efficiently bi-lingual. Each one is fluent in a different language. English, and the language of their expertise. I suggest, Spanish, German, Russian, French, and Portuguese (there may be more as time allows).
There will also be "the technicians" or those who are handling the electronic devices and anything technical (I would be delighted to use some of the JREF Forum members for any of these positions).
I will speak into a microphone and "broadcast" into the various frequencies of the spectrum.
The first question I ask will be " What is your name?" in each of the agreed upon languages.


Dave -

In exactly what way will your performance be distinguishable from a magic trick? So far, from all you've written, the answer I'm hearing is, "In no way whatsoever." Please explain exactly what you will do that could not be accomplished by a professional magician.

[Czarcasm]

Apparently he's got plenty of time to elaborate elsewhere: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=267933&forum=251&567&start=540

"I will sit on the Devil's Chair in the Lake Helen Florida cemetery, near Cassadaga. (On 10/31 )
I will "summon" if you will, the presence of paranormal entities by simply asking them to manifest themselves. I will ask several questions that require intelligent answers. I will also attempt to broadcast these question on several different frequencies also. The first will be the entity's name. The questions will be asked in several languages. (The most difficult portion for me)
Several Instrumental TransCommunication devices will be"ON" and recording.
Interpreters will be on hand to listen for responses to the questions.
The videos, tapes and other ITC recordings will be examined for Paranormal Evidence.
Basically a straight forward Paranormal investigation.
If the Entity or Entities give their name and answer intelligently, then the test is a success.
I'm not sure why some people can't fathom this. They do it on TV all the time. That is why I want to take the test Now before someone else does!
If the entity actually gives a prediction that verifiably comes true (And I am in no way promising this) that would put the whole thing "Over the Top" ... it's happened before"
Anyone want to count the ways this isn't acceptable for the MDC?

[Czarcasm]

Guess who he expects to pay for, and actually build all this electronic equipment? http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=267933&forum=251&567&start=540
"Sorry to pop your bubble but the JREF was asked to build the needed scanners themselves and participate in the demonstration! You'd better read the JREF forum again! (I even posted schematics and self construction videos) How'd you miss that?
I also offered to let James Randi to be the final judge himself. Suicide some would say!
How much fairer can you get?"How nice-if things don't go as planned JREF gets blamed for faulty(or maybe even sabotaged!) equipment.

[The Professor]

I was told that the members of the JREF forum would help in the protocol and that the moderators would keep everything on track but it appears that I am wrong. The members of the Magic Cafe have been coming up with some good advice and I will continue to work with them. It seems that the JREF Forum would be the best place for this but It looks as though I am wrong.
Some of you say "Keep it Simple" and others say "More Details!" while others say .. "This is just a publicity stunt (I wonder how that got by the mods?) Which isn't part of the protocol at all. And others ask "Who's going to pay for this?"
I will stick to describing the event as requested.
If you have good suggestions on how to make this a fair test I will take them. Otherwise I will take your advice and ignore the attacks.
The Faraday Cage to prevent trickery is a good one. I will keep it. Any others?

[The Professor]

Here is my last email to Alison
Alison
Is this more along the lines of what you want?

I will sit on the Devil's Chair in the Lake Helen Florida cemetery, near Cassadaga. (On 10/31/2008)
I will "summon" if you will, the presence of paranormal entities by simply asking them to manifest themselves. I will ask several questions that require intelligent answers. I will also attempt to broadcast these question on several different frequencies also. The first will be the entity's name. The questions will be asked in several languages. (The most difficult portion for me)
Several Instrumental TransCommunication devices will be"ON" and recording.
Interpreters will be on hand to listen for responses to the questions.
The videos, tapes and other ITC recordings will be examined for Paranormal Evidence.
Basically a straight forward Paranormal investigation.
If the Entity or Entities give their name and answer intelligently, then the test is a success.
If the entity actually gives a prediction that verifiably comes true (And I am in no way promising this) that would put the whole thing "Over the Top" ... it's happened before.


I will elaborate further if needed.
It is my desire to make this a fair test!
Thanks
Dave


The answers must be "Plain as Day" and not some squeaky mumbo jumbo.
A Faraday Cage can be used to eliminate any trickery if desired.
The language interpreters will be expert translators (many are available here in Florida).
I will also use sign language if I can master the technique in time ( the interpreters for the Deaf from Universal Studios are assisting me)
Any more help will be appreciated. I hope to make this a fair test.
Thanks
Dave

[yairhol]

I'd like to add that there must be some kind of proof against cheating as is always the case in these challenges. For example, in every remote sensing challenge, electronic devices are not allowed in order to rule out communication using standard devices.
Now, in this challenge there are lots of electronic devices inherent to the test that will be used to communicate with some deity or whatever. How can we be sure that nobody is transmitting some electronic signals from somewhere in the area or even further that will be picked up by these devices?
I can also communicate with whomever you want. Just give me a walkie talkie and I'll have someone else transmit random beeps to me.

[steenkh]

Before I see these designs for scanning devices, I would like to know what function they would have in the test.

What controls will be used? Will you demonstrate that these devices will pick up nothing at other locations but only at the cemetery? Will there be some sort of shielding to ensure that no interference will come from outside the test area? Will there be some sort of control that nothing is interfering fraudulently from inside the test area?

In what way will the output from these machines demonstrate something self-evidently paranormal?

[steenkh]

If the Entity or Entities give their name and answer intelligently, then the test is a success.
Why? I do not see any evidence that paranormal events are happening because you can record a name and some answers on a recording device.

If the entity actually gives a prediction that verifiably comes true (And I am in no way promising this) that would put the whole thing "Over the Top" ... it's happened before.
That sounds more like it. But, again, this will have to be self-evident. No judging is allowed as to whether the prediction has come true or not.

A Faraday Cage can be used to eliminate any trickery if desired.

Depending on what is going to be demonstrated. Signals can be transmitted in many ways.

The language interpreters will be expert translators (many are available here in Florida).
Why not include some interpreters for languages that you do not know in advance? If the JREF secretly invites a translator for, say, Xhosa, and you are told how to phrase the Xhosa question, then it would indeed be paranormal if the Xhosa interpreter gets a comprehensible answer to the question, on the grounds that you do not know Xhosa, and you do not have time dig up a Xhosa speaker for the test.

I will also use sign language if I can master the technique in time ( the interpreters for the Deaf from Universal Studios are assisting me)
Any more help will be appreciated. I hope to make this a fair test.
Thanks
Dave[/QUOTE]

[0m3g4]

A Faraday Cage can be used to eliminate any trickery if desired.

I don't want to sound disrespectful but even my damn car is a Faraday cage, still I can use my cellphone or listen to music on the radio when I'm in it.

I don't see how anything you propose is paranormal. When your paranormal entity can predict what is inside a sealed envelope or the numbers of the lottery, that would most certainly qualify for the MDC. Speaking over radio in different languages and receiving answers to questions like "What's your name?" or "Are you a ghost?" definitely won't. Even if your doing it sitting on a stone chair, at a cemetery, in the middle of the night.

[steenkh]

I don't want to sound disrespectful but even my damn car is a Faraday cage, still I can use my cellphone or listen to music on the radio when I'm in it.
Your car is only a Faraday cage for certain (low) frequencies. It is possible to construct Faraday cage where no normal electrical signal will get trhough.

[Hatchet]

The Professor,

If I were trying to prove the existence of EVP, I'd probably start with a protocol similar this:

You ask 10 questions which require distinct answers. Examples could be "What is your name?", "Where were you born?", "What year were you born?", "How did you die?"

The answer to each question will be recorded on 1 of 10 identical recording devices.

After the answer is recorded, the device will be removed from the testing area and labelled with a random, distinct letter and sealed.

One of your representatives and a JREF representative keep a record of which letter matches to which question. These representatives will under no circumstances be allowed to enter the testing or communicate with anyone in the testing area until the test is complete.

After all 10 questions have been asked, the 10 EVP recorders will be returned to you.

You will then listen to each recording and determine which answer is matched to which question.

If you match more than 8 out of 10 questions to answers, the test will be considered a success.

I'm not saying the JREF would accept this protocol, but it is an example of the sort of protocol they might accept. The key here is that it requires no judging to determine if the test is successful. If you could match the questions to answers, the results would be obvious to all.

So I suggest you think very carefully on how you could get your claim into a form where judging by experts or otherwise is not required.

Cheers.

[Czarcasm]

Faraday cage to eliminate all electronic signals?-sounds o.k. if possible.
Faraday cage to allow only signals from beyond?-I don't think so. If it can be received, it can be transmitted. And we keep coming up with the problem of who is going to pay for:
1. The Faraday cage
2. All these interpreters and experts
3. All of this electronic equipment

Also this expectation that the JREF with supposedly be building some of this equipment from blueprints.

[Hatchet]

The answer to each question will be recorded on 1 of 10 identical recording devices.There is an obvious and probably unfixable information leakage problem with this protocol. But it still serves to illustrate the general idea.

Cheers.

[The Professor]

That is a great idea Hatchet!!!!!
Om3g4 ... most cars have an antenna :)
But I get your point.
I also agree with Steen!
Now we are getting somewhere.
Schematics have already been provided.
Thanks for the help. I want to insure that we have a solid and fair test at all times.
Dave

[0m3g4]

Your car is only a Faraday cage for certain (low) frequencies. It is possible to construct Faraday cage where no normal electrical signal will get trhough.

You are right, I stand corrected. :) I do think a literal "cage" won't block radio transmissions sufficiently though.
And Czarcasm has already pointed out that a Faraday cage will not at all guarantee "to eliminate any trickery".

[Czarcasm]

That is a great idea Hatchet!!!!!
Om3g4 ... most cars have an antenna :)
But I get your point.
I also agree with Steen!
Now we are getting somewhere.
Schematics have already been provided.
Thanks for the help. I want to insure that we have a solid and fair test at all times.
DaveWill you be paying for the interpreters, experts and all of this equipment? According to the rules, you have to.
Will you be building this equipment? It is not the responsibility of JREF to do so.

These aren't items to be be hashed out in the protocol-these are in the rules you agree to before hand. have you read the rules, and do you agree to abide by them?

[xinit]

Here is my last email to Alison
Interpreters will be on hand to listen for responses to the questions.


I'm concerned with regard to the number of people that need to be in place for this; any one of these translators or any one of these electronic devices could be used as a communication device.

If the translators were located remotely, or at least out of sight and vision of the participant, risk of their being shills could be mitigated.


If the Entity or Entities give their name and answer intelligently, then the test is a success.


With the translators, we're dealing with a situation where the chances of a recognizable voice on EVP go up simply by increasing the number of languages that might be heard. If we are relying on translators, then there should be two different translators minimum; they must listen and note what they hear in private, on paper. If their answers are compared and they do not match, then it is not a success. At least one of those translators should be selected by the testing organization from an independent source.

Build a farraday cage around the site, use EMF, bug detectors (bring in the FBI?), etc to ensure there are no electronic devices in the scene. Control all access to the site once this is done; nobody who could be compromised can be allowed access to the site unsupervised. No security guards, no camera men, etc.

One remote camera should record video from outside the cage, and one microphone should be placed inside the cage. A second and third camera might be useful opposite the first to provide 360 degree coverage. Nothing wireless or electronic will be used within, say, 300 yards of the site; no laptops, no monitors, nothing except the cameras and microphone.

The cameras and audio recording techniques will be chosen by the
testers. Audio will be recorded RAW and uncompressed.

Participant arrives on site. Have a doctor give the participant a nice, thorough checkup. Participant changes into clothes and shoes provided at the site; spooky black or another scary colour can be agreed upon ahead of time. I'd suggest an x-ray of the stomach and mouth to avoid any possible regurgitation...

Participant is escorted to the final site by a test supervisor and strapped into the chair.

This should prevent any devices from arriving in the location on or in the participant.

This all okay with you too?

[xinit]

You are right, I stand corrected. :) I do think a literal "cage" won't block radio transmissions sufficiently though.
And Czarcasm has already pointed out that a Faraday cage will not at all guarantee "to eliminate any trickery".

Of course it won't eliminate any trickery, but it'll kill the use of radio or cellular devices in performing said trickery.

[Piggy]

That is a great idea Hatchet!!!!!
Om3g4 ... most cars have an antenna :)
But I get your point.
I also agree with Steen!
Now we are getting somewhere.
Schematics have already been provided.
Thanks for the help. I want to insure that we have a solid and fair test at all times.
Dave

No, we are not getting anywhere, because so far you have not described anything paranormal.

What you have described is a stage show for a conjuring performance.

We're still at square one until you describe something paranormal you are going to demonstrate.

All this about location and who's going to be on stage and what sort of gear you're going to have on stage is pointless.

Please give a succinct summary of the paranormal ability or event you intend to show evidence of.

[steenkh]

Remember: A Faraday cage also needs to be shielded from below, and given how small and unobtrusive antennas can be, it might not be too difficult to have one inserted through the wire mesh. And at any rate, a signal can also be transmitted through ultrasound, infrared, or who knows what other gadgets human invention might create, so a Faraday cage will not be enough.

[Czarcasm]

Who is paying for all this, I ask yet again?
Will someone else ask this question, in case he has put me on Ignore?

[steenkh]

Who is paying for all this, I ask yet again?
Will someone else ask this question, in case he has put me on Ignore?
Why ask him? The rules clearly say that the claimant has to pay for all.

[petre]

Now we are getting somewhere.


Agreed. You've identified a rudimentary passing criteria that some sort of recording devices will be able to play back answers to simple questions. Allow me to detail some issues I expect that might cause such a suggested protocol to be rejected.

Asking an unknown entity's name would not be a good choice, as it cannot always be verrified easily as an intelligent response. For example, if the reply is a loud and enthusiastic, "Soap Hockey!" it may be unclear if this is an intelligent response.

It will likely be necessary to have questions with more verifiably-intelligent answers. For example, asking the sum of 2 and 2, expecting an answer of "four". You've not yet stated any of the nature of the paranormal entities you plan to contact though. Perhaps they are mischevious or exceptionally poor at math and will answer "three" (or perhaps more skilled at math and cryptic, answering something like "second even"). If you plan to allow for such a response to be deemed an "intelligent" answer, your detailed criteria for successful answers will have to be rather comprehensive if the results are to be anything close to self-evident.

Further complicating things is the concern for the chosen language of the contacted entity. It could take a good deal of time to broadcast questions in multiple languages. Unless you're asserting that such entities can pick out the question from their understood language amid a cacophony behing thrown at them at the same time (I'd be interested to hear what evidence would lead you to this particular conclusion). Is the entity going to be limited to responding only to languages that are broadcast, or will an answer that appears to be some sub-dialect of Klingon also be accepted? If the field of "intelligent responses" is widened too far, the claim ends up essentially being "I'm going to ask questions, and after each some kind of sound will be recorded".

It seems ultimately you are unable to guarantee any nature to the sounds that will be recorded apart from some indication that currently understood science would predict that these sounds would not occur. This then bring us to the next point on how you plan to set up controls to rule out other ways sounds might end up recorded (so that indeed, currently understood science would predict these sounds would not get recorded). You've noted already a willingness to use a Faraday Cage, but that does not provide the full measure of protection the JREF is likely to require. For example, I'm unfamiliar with any technology to interfere with a Hypersonic sound device. Additionally it seems there would be great opportunity for any of the numerious asistants, or even the various pieces of technology, to cause sounds to get recorded.

In summary, your claim appears something along the lines of "I'm not sure exactly what's gonna happen, but I think it'll sure be neat!" Such a test will be rather difficult to design a protocol for, since for your sake you must account for all possible paranormal things that may occur, while at the same time eliminating any possibility that something unparanormal could be given a passing grade. Since there are a great number of unparanormal things that are also "neat", the task will not be easy.

[Azrael 5]

It's all a bit messy this idea to me.I must inform that the The Professor has never undertaken any test at the proposed site,thus has no knowledge that anything paranormal occurs(other than urban legend).He only visted the site in June-as stated on Magic Cafe:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=261246&forum=14&start=0

Also again as far as I am aware,The Professor has no proof he has ever contacted an Entity previously either.
It boils down to,contacting unproven entity with unproven device at a site that is unproven to have any signifcance regards paranormal!

[Czarcasm]

Why ask him? The rules clearly say that the claimant has to pay for all.He is proposing a lot of equipment and personnel, and he has also proposed that JREF build some equipment from blueprints he will provide. It is unacceptable that he will not acknowledge that he understands that he alone is responsible for all costs. I know the rules and you know the rules-for the purpose of going forward on this, it is imperative that he knows the rules, understands them and will abide by them.

[IMST]

Based on what he's stated so far, I can think of several ways to cheat this with very basic recording techniques. I'm calling publicity stunt/conjuring. This guy thinks that by going technological he can sneak cheating past the magician crowd. And even then, there isn't anything even close to an acceptable protocal, though Hatchet's suggestion gets it remotely close.

Where it really gets me is that I can't see any way to reasonably control for cheating. These won't be off the shelf recording devices, or they could be purchased by a neutral party with The Professor's money and kept under control. Obviously The Professor cannot be allowed to build them or it would be trivial to prerecord the resonses. The JREF doesn't have the time to build them, and I don't see a third party being trusted with these custom devices. Without controlling the equipment, even an otherwise acceptable protocal is susceptible to cheating.

[Loss Leader]

As the test has been described, I cannot see any way that it could ever be made acceptable.

Dave could go to the site today, bury a small radio transmitter, and throw some grass seed over it. By October 31, the site would look completely undisturbed. Then, the transmitter hits the right time and date and starts broadcasting whatever he wants.

One might think that this is too much work to be realistic, but it is pretty simple compared to the preparation for many large magic tricks.

I am still waiting to hear how Dave plans to distinguish this performance from a mere trick.

[Piggy]

As the test has been described, I cannot see any way that it could ever be made acceptable.

Dave could go to the site today, bury a small radio transmitter, and throw some grass seed over it. By October 31, the site would look completely undisturbed. Then, the transmitter hits the right time and date and starts broadcasting whatever he wants.

One might think that this is too much work to be realistic, but it is pretty simple compared to the preparation for many large magic tricks.

I am still waiting to hear how Dave plans to distinguish this performance from a mere trick.

From what we've seen so far -- no indication of any willingness to state any sort of paranormal ability, but a lot of description of props and stage dressing, coupled with showy public pronouncements -- it appears that JREF is being used as part of an elaborate performance, that there is no intention to actually involve the MDC in this performance, and that all of this who-shot-John is just groundwork to be able to publicize it as something like "The event that Randi dared not challenge!" or some sort.

The Professor can remove that appearance by stating what the paranormal ability/event is, then moving on to a genuine good-faith effort to establish a workable protocol within the published rules of the challenge.

[Jackalgirl]

Howdy, TP --

I have a few suggestions, which are really just summaries of other people's very good comments here:

1) Rephrase your claim: "I, David Walter Koenig, will demonstrate the appearance of vocal responses on multiple recording media, the appearance of which cannot be explained through any normal means. These responses will be simple, in English, and in response to simple English questions I ask. The demonstration will take place at x pm on October 31, 2008, at 'the Devil's Chair' in Lake Helen, Florida." (where "x", of course, is the time at which your demo will start.)
2) Forget the multiple languages and stick with English. If the effect is paranormal, it'll occur regardless of the language used, so you might as well keep it simple. Plus, translators are expensive.
3) Hatchet's suggestion is an excellent one, and I'm glad you like it--I agree that you should use it (that is, part of your demonstration is to assign the answers to their questions after the recordings are made). I'd also recommend randomizing the order of the questions at the beginning of the test.

By paring down your claim, and most /especially/ leaving out the "paranormal entity" bit, you bring it closer to being testable. Keep it as simple as possible -- if you find yourself having to write five pages trying to describe your claim, you're probably doing it wrong. ; )

Remember that there's a distinction between the claim -- which should be simple -- and the protocol -- which should be incredibly details. Details about what equipment will be used and where it will come from, and the steps that will be taken to demonstrate the claimed effect/ability/process -- all go into the protocol.

So, in regards to the protocol (which I agree really should only be the focus /after/ the claim is rephrased), there are some very valid questions remaining, and that is: how will you control for trickery? Several people have pointed out ways to "fake" this effect -- buried transmitters, acoustic projection, etc. As a magician, I know you're familiar with many of them. Think, "if I were going to fake this, how would I do it?" Make a list. Devise, or ask for help devising, ways to defeat the items on your list. Run the list past us here -- maybe we can add to it. Then put all those controls into the protocol.

Czarcasm has pointed out a couple of times that it's important to remember that /you/ will be bearing all of the costs for this demonstration, including the cost of building equipment, etc. Since you seem to have posted in the Magic Cafe that you expect JREF to pay for (and construct) the equipment, I just wanted to make sure that you understand that that won't happen, right?