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sackett
23rd October 2003, 08:54 AM
One way to confuse astrology believers - well, confuse them further - is to introduce them to the Chinese equivalent of astrology: the I Ching.

Many of you will know this already, but for those who don't:

The assumptions underlying the I Ching are nice and symmetrical, amounting to a kind of cosmology tied to the lunar new year.

Everybody who's ever been to a Chinese restaurant and read his paper placemat knows about the Twelve Animals, one of which is associated with each calendar year in a repeating cycle.

Each animal is in some unspecified way associated with one of the Five Elements (water, earth, fire, wood (?), and metal): the Dragon is a Fire animal, the Ox is an Earth animal, and so on.

Then you have the famous Hexagrams, 64 little arrangements of solid and broken lines, that are used both for horoscopes and for divination. Each Hexagram has a traditional name: Retreat, The Corners of the Mouth, The Army, Influence, and so on. By tossing coins or yarrow sticks, the huckster, excuse me, fortune-telling master builds up a hexagram and finds its "meaning" by consulting the I Ching, a book of wonderfully cryptic adages composed by god knows who and handed down in various versions from a fairly remote antiquity.

The twelve-month year is divided into six two-month periods to correspond with a line of the hexagram associated with that year. Your birth period is thus associated with a particular line of a hexagram. Needless to say, hexagrams are also associated with Elements. Thus you have the Animal and its Element for your birth year, the Hexagram and its Element for that year, a specific line of a Hexagram for your approximate birth date, and finally the I Ching reading for that Hexagram, which the master will interpret for you upon suitable payment. For example, my Animal is the Ox (Earth) and my Hexagram is Retreat (Water), making me an Earth-Over-Water sort of guy: not quite natural, a little uncertain, prone to retire too soon from a situation. (Dunno what my I Ching reading says; I haven't owned a copy for many years; might have to do a Google on that some day. Yawn. Blink. Oof, where was I? Oh yes.)

Thus Chinese "astrology" has a pleasing regularity about it. You can play endlessly with numbers like 5, 6, 12, and especially 64. Further, and this is really delightful in its way, every time you cast somebody's "horoscope," it comes out the same! Anybody can do it! Conversely, if you "consult the oracle" with a specific question, you'll get a different Hexagram every time, and can delight your fancy with a different I Ching reading - and I promise that your reading will appear to apply to your question: twenty centuries of con men have refined the I Ching to prevent dissatisfied suckers. Dang, there I go again: I meant clients, of course.

So what's my long-delayed point here? Simply that Western and Chinese astrologies have NOTHING in common, and don't even take similar approaches to reading the future. And yet, the I Ching and its associated rubbish are accepted implicitly by huge numbers of people, and you may be sure that they really and truly govern their lives by it. No wonder: Chinese astrology is probably older than Western, and it looks considerably more sophisticated; it even looks "rational" if you use an elastic definition of the term. I can testify that its readings have an eerie way of seeming to hit the mark that no Western reading can ever do. Some determinedly rational people keep an I Ching around and sometimes dip into it, just for fun.

Bounce the I Ching and its symbolic cosmology off the head of a Western-style astrology believer sometime, and watch him get first agitated and then angry. With luck, he may even begin to doubt.

Suezoled
23rd October 2003, 09:54 AM
Or instead of asking "what's your sign?" you can ask "what's your blood type?" In Japan, compatability is stereotypically measured through one's bloodtype. Though I don't know how....
but there are even companies that have you fill job applications and ask your blood type. (Job suitability based on blood type? Scary!)

Blondin
23rd October 2003, 10:41 AM
I thought I Ching was a little red book of sayings of Mao? What book am I thinking of?

T'ai Chi
23rd October 2003, 11:42 AM
sackett,

If one doesn't believe the Yijing predicts the future, is an oracle, etc., and is just using it as a tool to reflect upon themselves, what is the problem?

To those who believe the Yijing predicts the future, and is on oracle, etc., they must believe that coins or sticks actually predict the future and are oracles, because the coins and sticks themselves are the ones producing the readings!

That is why I feel that viewing it as a psychological too of sorts is ok, if unorthadox, but viewing it as anything else isn't exactly rational.

Yahzi
23rd October 2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by sackett
Bounce the I Ching and its symbolic cosmology off the head of a Western-style astrology believer sometime, and watch him get first agitated and then angry. With luck, he may even begin to doubt.
What? Every astrologer I have ever introduced to the I-Ching has simply declared that it is also valid.

It's not like the two systems contradict. It's not like if they did contradict it would bother a woo-woo in the slightest. They're all true! Everything is true! Except what skeptics believe, that is.

Abdul Alhazred
23rd October 2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Blondin
I thought I Ching was a little red book of sayings of Mao? What book am I thinking of?

You are thinking of "The Little Red Book" also known as "The Sayings of Chairman Mao Tse Tung". "I Ching" in that context is unacceptable bourgeois ideology, no less than Christianity.

By the way, there is Chinese astrology. Not "I Ching", that's divination by lots. Chinese astrology is astrology, though not congruent with the kind you are familiar with.

"Year of the Rat" and that sort of thing.

Grommitt
23rd October 2003, 10:46 PM
Our local paper has a feature entitled "Municipal I Ching".

What the heck does that mean? Anybody know?

Is it different from Federal or State I Ching?

Among other things, this weeks casting says: The top line points out that when care is taken, and the seasons followed, Spring will come again.Huh? Like if I'm not carefull, Spring won't come? Great! Now I'm responsible for Spring and I haven't even put away the lawn furniture for Fall.

Looks like it's going to be a long, cold Winter.

BillHoyt
24th October 2003, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by T'ai Chi
sackett,

If one doesn't believe the Yijing predicts the future, is an oracle, etc., and is just using it as a tool to reflect upon themselves, what is the problem?

To those who believe the Yijing predicts the future, and is on oracle, etc., they must believe that coins or sticks actually predict the future and are oracles, because the coins and sticks themselves are the ones producing the readings!

That is why I feel that viewing it as a psychological too of sorts is ok, if unorthadox, but viewing it as anything else isn't exactly rational.

What good does it do to view a supposed oracle as some sort of pop-psych tool other than to grant it unwarranted validity? Other than to provide it to the unwary as a gateway woo-drug?

Informational correction: The basic hexagram of the I Ching is not supposed to predict the future. The claim is that the hexagram describes this moment in the universe. The predictive claims apply only to any broken hexagram lines. The "sticks" traditionally are yarrow stalks.

Cheers,

sackett
24th October 2003, 12:04 PM
It's been mucho many years since I wasted brain cells on the I Ching. But I still think if you spring I Ching palaver on an uninitiated Western astrolojerk, he/she will be initially dazed and confused. (And then, yes, Yahzi, he/she will spring back into shape -- poink! like the lobster in The Little Mermaid -- and start believing in the I Ching too.)

Alas, I fear that I Ching readings are definitely used for predicting the future; supposedly, the tendencies latent in the present moment can be discerned from the wee solid and broken lines. Or some such horse-Schidt.

Mind you, I have nothing against playing at I Ching. It's a lot more fun than the vapid going-nowhere of Western astrology. I suggest putting a finger down at random on a grid of numbers 1 through 64 and then looking up that hexagram; quicker than coins and yarrow stalks and all that jazz.

I was introduced to I Ching und so Weiter by my long-ago t'ai chi teacher, a desperate little fellow with a crippling allergy to work who flogged acupuncture, herbal medicine, qi enhancement, and martial arts to anybody who came near him. It was through getting a load of Igor - that's right, Igor; he wasn't even Chinese - that I came to understand the genuinely anti-rational nature of the believer mentality: the worst cases willfully reject what can be demonstrated and abjectly accept what can't.

If you want an example of what I mean, mention the impossibility of exceeding the speed of light to a UFO believer.

sackett
24th October 2003, 12:11 PM
About using the dear little "images" and "oracles" in the I Ching: they have the purpose of helping you think about your feelings. A good analogy is someone who tosses a coin to reach a decision, and then meditates on how the outcome of the toss makes him feel. He may go with heads or tails -- or he may not, depending on what his introspection reveals to him. This is very, very different from the poor soul who really and actually believes what he reads in the astrology column of the Daily Blatt.

Ratman_tf
24th October 2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Suezoled
Or instead of asking "what's your sign?" you can ask "what's your blood type?" In Japan, compatability is stereotypically measured through one's bloodtype. Though I don't know how....
but there are even companies that have you fill job applications and ask your blood type. (Job suitability based on blood type? Scary!)

I see by your avatar that you're probably an anime fan. Blood type as 'personality type' stuff creeps into Japanese shows from time to time, and it always confused me until someone told me about that superstition. :)