Franko wants to know your opinion

[Trinity]

BTW time is a dimension.

Trinity

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Trinity
BTW time is a dimension.

Trinity
Good answer, Trinity. I cannot see a good way of defining time without using the word "time", or a latin derivitave thereof, in the definition. Makes you glad you have dictionaries.

From Dictionary.com
A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.

'Course my favorite definition is a joke:
"Time is God's way to keep everything from happening at once."

[wraith]

Originally posted by Tricky

I think you meant "crumpets", wraith.

no I meant scrumpets
;)

I have never heard of scrumpets, but if there are such things, I would guess that they are dogs that you have taught to play rugby. :D

rugby...now thats a mans game
haha

[Franko]

Hey Look ... :eek: ... my "nicer-half" is here!!

:rolleyes:

You should have had me say something nice about you Wraith!

... mention what a "stud" you are? ... or something like that ;)

[The Fool]

Franko.
You've managed to avoid answering the questions posed by this thread while still managing to chant your fundamentalist dogma...any thoughts of explaining the free will choices you have said exist?

when you said

"I do have free will or choice of what I will wear"

were you talking about free will? or something else called free will, that is somehow different to free will?

Don't allow fear to stop you from clearing this up Franko....I promise to stop making you look like an idiot if you start being reasonable. I don't particularly enjoy picking on you but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.... People who create cults often start preaching with some details of thier dogma not fully sorted. Obviously the LD position on free will is still being worked out, I only want to help.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
I've disagreed with all of them, many times before.

No, you haven't. :D

Originally posted by wraith


great question!
time is.....
hmmm
the driving force for existence
;)

No, once again I politely ask Time is.............?

"the driving force for existence" That wraith is an answer to a posed question on what is time....? Irrelevant:D

assumed presumed dont it defeats the object.
Play on words, word in a play... how quaint;)

Originally posted by Trinity
ReallySweet
:) Problem is, I'm a sockpuppet. But people are inferring that I am female. So that it must be. ;) Actual cybering is beyond my abilities I think. When I reach 50 post I must have an avatar.

Trinity

*cybering*..Presumptious must be something in the air? :D

Trinity is perceived as a female , care of the character of same name in The Matrix.
Though Triad or of the three suggests male, the father the son and the holy ghost.
Then the Docturine of Trinity reveals more.

Need I say anymore........No;)

[CWL]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
no wrong answer Time is.......

religious fanatic presumptious assumptious again arent you,we, us

Multiplicity complex?
Franko just a simple question one that you should know, really OTT responce back to such a simplly poiltely asked question

That an issued threat Franko?

Oooooh. Frankster got trouble now. Radiant-Sunbeam-Fluff has got insights in psycology.

Really-Sunny-Funny-face,:)

Have you managed to establish whether the behavioural pattern in question is neurotic or pathological yet?

Originally posted by Trinity
BTW time is a dimension.

Trinity

No.

That is the same answer as Wraith gave, going along the same line ;)

I asked Time is.......?
not What is time...?


The web she weaves to trap her prey is made from the finest silk.
For she can trap with patience, care and softness far more than any army could.

[MRC_Hans]

Trouble? Ripe? 1743? Battle at Bull Run? ----- OK, I admit I'm guessing--

Hans ;)

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


No, you haven't. :D

SILENCE, CRETIN!!!

Actually, CWL, now that I think on it, I've never even debated anything with you, so I can't really say I've disagreed with you many times. I still think you're wrong about Wraith.

The Fool and Tricky, though...I occasionally clash with Tricky (as in the aforementioned Comprehensively Defining God thread), and I believe I've complained about the Fool acting like Franko now and then.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
SILENCE, CRETIN!!!

Actually, CWL, now that I think on it, I've never even debated anything with you, so I can't really say I've disagreed with you many times. I still think you're wrong about Wraith.

See what I mean. If you want to debate though, please have a look at my reply to your insightful contribution to the Humanist Moral Code Thread. Unfortunately, it's not very contentious...

Perhaps we can disagree to agree?

The Fool and Tricky, though...I occasionally clash with Tricky (as in the aforementioned Comprehensively Defining God thread), and I believe I've complained about the Fool acting like Franko now and then.

I can't blame you. Those people are no true atheists. They are only vocalizing that faith to win the trust of the people of this board - but I'm on to their A-Atheist Conspiracy...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


I can't blame you. Those people are no true atheists. They are only vocalizing that faith to win the trust of the people of this board - but I'm on to their A-Atheist Conspiracy...

Ah-hah...I get it now. Perhaps its best if we don't tip them off just yet....give them just enough rope, you know... ;)

[Tricky]

Originally posted by CWL

I can't blame you. Those people are no true atheists. They are only vocalizing that faith to win the trust of the people of this board - but I'm on to their A-Atheist Conspiracy...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Ah-hah...I get it now. Perhaps its best if we don't tip them off just yet....give them just enough rope, you know... ;)

IDIOTS! My evil plan for Un-Atheism (also known as Un-Itarian) has been uncovered. Now you've destroyed everything I've worked so hard to build. Fine for now, but I promise you, you will pay. Oh yes, you will pay dearly. Starting about January 3.

[Franko]

Fool (A-Theist fanatic):

You've managed to avoid answering the questions posed by this thread …

I didn’t start this thread Fool.

… and You don’t control Me …

...any thoughts of explaining the free will choices you have said exist?

I’ve never said that Foool, that is Your claim. I don’t believe in “free willy” like you and the other fanatics.

There is NO evidence for “free will” -- remember?

Atoms obey the laws of Physics.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS!

Are you still claiming that your fantasy beliefs are True Foool? You’ll have to prove your ridiculous assertion if you expect me to believe it.

Unlike yourself, I can’t make myself believe dogmatic religious claims which are based on NO EVIDENCE (just pessimism).

[Franko]

Joshua Korosi:

The Fool and Tricky, though...I occasionally clash with Tricky (as in the aforementioned Comprehensively Defining God thread), and I believe I've complained about the Fool acting like Franko now and then.

You are a pawn of the A-Theists, plain and simple. Even CWL told you it was so.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


You are a pawn of the A-Theists, plain and simple. Even CWL told you it was so.

We're joking around, Franko. At least I haven't let the A-Theists rope me into parroting the same irrelevant banalities over and over...

Loosen up a bit, you act like you're about to take the Finals or something.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


We're joking around, Franko.

No we're not: A-GOD controls CWL controls YOU

[Franko]

Loosen up a bit, you act like you're about to take the Finals or something.

Ohh, my final was over long ago ...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


Ohh, my final was over long ago ...

See? Then there's no reason to act so damn ornery.

Let's try something different...what are your physical interests (besides harassing the A-T's)? Do you like astronomy? Hiking, camping? Do you collect anything? Build models?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


No we're not

Look, this isn't an argument...it's just contradiction! :o

[CWL]

No it isn't.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
Fool (A-Theist fanatic):



I didn’t start this thread Fool.

… and You don’t control Me …



I’ve never said that Foool, that is Your claim. I don’t believe in “free willy” like you and the other fanatics.

There is NO evidence for “free will” -- remember?

Atoms obey the laws of Physics.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS!

Are you still claiming that your fantasy beliefs are True Foool? You’ll have to prove your ridiculous assertion if you expect me to believe it.

Unlike yourself, I can’t make myself believe dogmatic religious claims which are based on NO EVIDENCE (just pessimism).
Meaningless chanting drivel Franko.....

you said the words Franko...not me. You are the one that stated you make free will decisions.... Do you expect me to watch you state 2 totally different positions and say nothing? I'm not the wraith, I am allowed to point out your inconsistency.....
So how about it franko....too scared to explain, or are you just going to chant another of your standard meaningless slogans?

once again I must stress there is no need to be scared. I'm not going to hurt you.

"I do have free will or choice of what I will wear"

starting to wish you didn't say it eh franko? LOL.....

[Franko]

See? Then there's no reason to act so damn ornery.

Ornery?

Only entities which are Evil in their Soul are threatened by my presence Joshua.

Let's try something different...what are your physical interests (besides harassing the A-T's)? Do you like astronomy?

Yeah, I’ve been into amateur astronomy for years.

Hiking, camping?

Long ago … these days I am more of a room service type.

Do you collect anything?

I collect everything. Particularly things which are very old.

Build models?

I build ship models from scratch, I also paint old masters style, I am a genealogist, a local historian, an amateur archaeologist, and I do a lot of carpentry and woodwork.

Plus I have a wife and a large extended family.

[Franko]

"I do have free will or choice of what I will wear"

starting to wish you didn't say it eh franko? LOL.....

I never did say that Foool. You are making it up.

Where is the actual posts you are claiming I made this statement in?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko


I never did say that Foool. You are making it up.

Where is the actual posts you are claiming I made this statement in?
Franko, thanks for the reply, The link is at the startt of this thread, the quote is approx half way down.....

I'll accept your apology for your claim that I made it up? I'm not Jedi Knight, I don't need to manufacture quotes to support my arguments.

Any time you are interested In explaining all the times you have talked about the free will the goddess allows you...I'll be here.I'm particularly interested in the "one choice" you spoke about, remember? Its the one you say I used up in deciding to be an evil entity (Dr Evil?) rather than a God Botherer...

[Franko]

So there is no post then Foool?

If you are saying that I posted it, then quote the post in its entirety with the date.

Put up or shut up A-Theist Foool.

Lets see who's lying?

[Franko]

Hey Fool,

I just checked that thread!

WOW! I am flattered that you are sooo interested in me you are reading the stuff that I wrote MONTHS ago, pooring over it diligently like some pious monk. You really are like Sergent Shultz on Hogan's Hero's aren't you foool?

Here is my first post on that thread. Tell me how inconsistent I sound ...

Franko from 7/2/2002:

Okay, but let’s start at the beginning. Did your mind make that last post, or did the Laws of Physics do it for you? After all …

Atoms obey the Laws of Physics.
You are made of Atoms.
You obey the Laws of Physics.

Do the Laws of Physics control your mind, or does your mind control the Laws of Physics?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
Hey Fool,

I just checked that thread!

WOW! I am flattered that you are sooo interested in me you are reading the stuff that I wrote MONTHS ago, pooring over it diligently like some pious monk. You really are like Sergent Shultz on Hogan's Hero's aren't you foool?

Here is my first post on that thread. Tell me how inconsistent I sound ...



are you saying that free will disappeared SINCE that thread?

so after dragging you back to the quote by the ear kicking and crying you still want to attempt to ignore what you said.

Do you understand what inconsistency is..... your first post is quite consistent with itself....It is inconsistent with other posts in the same thread. Come on franko are you trying to say you don't understand the question? Its simple......here's how you answer it....

reply to this post and type the following. "when I said that I have free will to chose the clothes I wear It is not inconsistent with my statements that free will does not exist because....." then you fill the rest in...simple enough?

constantly rechanting the same dogma and pretending it is an answer is pointless, either deny you said it (difficult in the face of the evidence) or explain what it means (easy, unless there is no rational answer) or ignore me (current tactic). Whats it to be?

[Franko]

Well there you go Fool -- conclusive evidence of your dishonesty.

You are making up quotes now.

Why aren't I surprised?

How do lies make what you believe True?

You fear the truth ... don't you Fool?

[wraith]

Originally posted by Franko
Hey Look ... :eek: ... my "nicer-half" is here!!

:rolleyes:

You should have had me say something nice about you Wraith!

... mention what a "stud" you are? ... or something like that ;)

no need to state the obvious Frankz

its an established fact that we are both hunks

;)

hahahahaha

[wraith]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower


No, once again I politely ask Time is.............?

"the driving force for existence" That wraith is an answer to a posed question on what is time....? Irrelevant:D

if you see it that way
;)

[wraith]

BTW Fool
youre an idiot
;)

making up qoutes and attacking them, just to suit your needs
HAHAHAHA

a new low has been benchmarked
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by wraith


if you see it that way
;) wraith I take it you cannot answer it shall I tell you?;)

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
Well there you go Fool -- conclusive evidence of your dishonesty.

You are making up quotes now.

Why aren't I surprised?

How do lies make what you believe True?

You fear the truth ... don't you Fool?

Franko said
"I am a firm believer in free will"
" I am a forum troll, I have nothing to contribute but meaningless fundamentalism dressed up as new age spirituality"
" I like to wear lace underwear"

you are right franko.....this is fun, I don't know why I didn't start doing it a long time ago...It certainly beats being moral and good like yourself.... Hahahahaha....

now go back to dancing or tell me another story about heaven, I'm bored....

[The Fool]

Originally posted by wraith
BTW Fool
youre an idiot
;)

making up qoutes and attacking them, just to suit your needs
HAHAHAHA

a new low has been benchmarked
:rolleyes:
Thank you wraith...I try my best to always bring things down to a level that you can follow.

Bye the way...are you the one that is still not sure if your god is male or female? or is that another trolls sockpuppet I'm thinking about?
time to check your PM's Franko may have sent you your next origional thought....

[wraith]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
wraith I take it you cannot answer it shall I tell you?;)

lol
you may tell me your version
proceed
:cool:

[wraith]

Originally posted by The Fool

Thank you wraith...I try my best to always bring things down to a level that you can follow.

thanks
;)

Bye the way...are you the one that is still not sure if your god is male or female? or is that another trolls sockpuppet I'm thinking about?
time to check your PM's Franko may have sent you your next origional thought....

LOL
I dont have any argument on the gender of the Higher Power.
Though, "Goddess" has a better ring to it
;)

sure as hell beats Mr Free Willy
haha

[Franko]

Da' Foool:

[Fool said] Franko said
"I am a firm believer in free will"
" I am a forum troll, I have nothing to contribute but meaningless fundamentalism dressed up as new age spirituality"
" I like to wear lace underwear"

you are right franko.....this is fun, I don't know why I didn't start doing it a long time ago...It certainly beats being moral and good like yourself.... Hahahahaha....

now go back to dancing or tell me another story about heaven, I'm bored....

hehehe!!! :D

Hysterical my little Foolaphant, but the part I liked best ... is how you got 55 of the Nitwits to take you seriously.

You see how easy it is to read what is in the A-Theist's mind? ... Didn't I tell you?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


Ornery?

Only entities which are Evil in their Soul are threatened by my presence Joshua.


That's fine, but a few other people seem to be annoyed by your presence - or put off at least. It has nothing to do with what you believe, either. I bet there are a lot of new people who have fascinating ideas and would stretch you to the limit in a healthy debate - but choose not to try and start a conversation with you, simply because of the way they see you treat others. Sure, you may have your reasons - but you can't expect them to know that outright, can you? All they see is you and a select few others rattling sabers.

Originally posted by Franko
Yeah, I’ve been into amateur astronomy for years.


Excellent! I had a lovely Nextar 115, but I had to pawn it a long time ago when I lived in Texas, because I fell on hard times. I need to get one soon...winter has the best sky.

Originally posted by Franko
I collect everything. Particularly things which are very old.


Then why haven't you collected Tricky yet? ( sorry, couldn't help it. Larn ye to call me a "holey sock"...:p )

Originally posted by Franko
I build ship models from scratch, I also paint old masters style, I am a genealogist, a local historian, an amateur archaeologist, and I do a lot of carpentry and woodwork.


All right...amateur archaeology. Now we're talking! Here on the shores of Erie there are a large number of Native American sites. The state hires professional archaeologists to do the main work, but they still use volunteers to help excavate.

I think one of the most interesting things about Native American sites is that if there weren't so many tribes still organized, and if stories weren't still passed down, we wouldn't know much about them at all. We learn most of what we know about ancient cultures by 1. examining their permanent sites and 2. looking through their trash. Native Americans didn't have many permanent sites at all, and they left hardly any trash. So, most of what we tend to find are stone tools - arrowheads and the like.

Originally posted by Franko
Plus I have a wife and a large extended family.

I have a large and very involved extended family. No wife or kids yet, though.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL
No it isn't.

Yes it is.

[Franko]

Jkorosi,

I’ll tell you before I read you post … I like your new forum handle better than your old one. I can’t help but feel it brings you good karma.

That's fine, but a few other people seem to be annoyed by your presence - or put off at least.

They are annoyed because they can’t explain their claims or justify them logically, and they are taking their frustration out on me. I am immune, and that annoys them further.

… It has nothing to do with what you believe, either.

Technically you are correct, it has much more to do with what they believe.

I bet there are a lot of new people who have fascinating ideas and would stretch you to the limit in a healthy debate - but choose not to try and start a conversation with you, simply because of the way they see you treat others.

Some people approach me apprehensively at first, but I think you would be surprised at the number of lurkers (agnostics and theists mostly) who contact me.

Sure, you may have your reasons - but you can't expect them to know that outright, can you? All they see is you and a select few others rattling sabers.

It is always the same “select few” fanatical A-Theists. That is a message in and of itself.

Excellent! I had a lovely Nextar 115, but I had to pawn it a long time ago when I lived in Texas, because I fell on hard times. I need to get one soon...winter has the best sky.

True, but I hate cold weather.

All right...amateur archaeology. Now we're talking! Here on the shores of Erie there are a large number of Native American sites. The state hires professional archaeologists to do the main work, but they still use volunteers to help excavate.

You can always get in on a dig if you want to.

I think one of the most interesting things about Native American sites is that if there weren't so many tribes still organized, and if stories weren't still passed down, we wouldn't know much about them at all. We learn most of what we know about ancient cultures by 1. examining their permanent sites and 2. looking through their trash. Native Americans didn't have many permanent sites at all, and they left hardly any trash. So, most of what we tend to find are stone tools - arrowheads and the like.

I find that I have recently become “addicted” to that goody little BBC show Time Team. Hysterical premise -- 3 days of fast paced archaeology.

I have a large and very involved extended family. No wife or kids yet, though.

Ohh, I am certain you are Destine for someone … ;)

Originally posted by The Fool


Go away S&S, this thread has nothing to do with your stupid video.

Hi The Fool:

Sorry ; I forgot this thread is about your STUPID poll.

Thanks,

S&S

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Yes it is.

Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

Yes, but that isn't just saying "no it isn't"...

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Yes, but that isn't just saying "no it isn't"...

Yes it is!

[Franko]

Ahhh,

I see that CWL (A-Theist legal advisor) is still doing his “thing” … “Ignoring” me by posting in threads with my name in the title. :rolleyes:

... the hypocrite A-Theist Lawyer who claims that punishment is NOT necessary to make men moral (as he punishes men to make them moral)

[Franko]

Ooooo, and lets not forget the quote fabricating A-Theist Fool ...

Or Sir Spam's-a-Lot (De-Bungler) ...

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
Ooooo, and lets not forget the quote fabricating A-Theist Fool ...

Or Sir Spam's-a-Lot (De-Bungler) ...

Lies all lies!!!

ranko said.... "There is no truth in the story that the fool fabricates quotes, he doesn't need to with me supplying enough stupidity to feed everyone"

ranko also said " All I want for christmas is a new leather bra and panties for my goddess action figure"


Franko, If I have attibuted a quote to you that is not true, tell me about it and I will put it right. You have so many varied positions on free will it is often difficult to tell where you stand. But show me the misquote and I will be happy to retract it....

Now tell me more about the "one free will decision" you say that I get, the one you say I used to decide to be an atheist. How does "one time" free will and "no free will" co-exist in your head?? or is this a "mis-quote" as well?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


Yes it is!

No it isn't! An argument is an intellectual process; contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes!

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
...the automatic gainsaying of any statement...
Is it "gainsaying"? I always thought it was "nay saying", but I could easily be wrong.

Upchurch

[Checkmite]

Yes, it is "gainsaying".

Just ruin it, Upchurch...thanks a lot. :rolleyes:

[Upchurch]

Well, you know. Haven't stirred anything up in a while. so,

NEE

Upchurch

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


No it isn't! An argument is an intellectual process; contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes!

No it isn't.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


No it isn't.

Yes it is!

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Yes it is!

Not at all.

[Franko]

Ahhh, let’s see how the A-Theists Trolls are paying homage to me today …

UpChrip chirped:
Is it "gainsaying"?

Jkorosi intoned:
Yes, it is "gainsaying".

Upchimp:
Well, you know. Haven't stirred anything up in a while. so,

(and you still haven’t Troll-boy …)

CWLoser:
No it isn't.

Jkorsoi:
Yes it is!

CWLawyer:
Not at all.


Damn! What on Earth would we all do without these highly relevant comments on the topics of RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY from the A-Theists? What I really find amazing is that these A-Theists (Trolls) have come to our Skeptics forum to share their “wisdom” with us, depriving their fellow brothers over at www.infidels.org of their keen insights into why we really do have “free willy” magic powers, why TOAST is more complex than a human, and why A-Theist Lawyers need to punish people to make them moral, but god doesn’t.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko
What I really find amazing is that these A-Theists (Trolls) have come to our Skeptics forum to share their “wisdom” with us, depriving their fellow brothers over at www.infidels.org of their keen insights into why we really do have “free willy” magic powers, why TOAST is more complex than a human, and why A-Theist Lawyers need to punish people to make them moral, but god doesn’t.

All of those subjects are the topics of other threads.

Would you rather the thread reverted to juvenile mud-slinging again? Besides, you shouldn't be so concerned with this thread - it was started by an A-Theist after all, so let us have our little moments of irreverence.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


Not at all.

Oh, this is futile...

[Franko]

All of those subjects are the topics of other threads.

Would you rather the thread reverted to juvenile mud-slinging again? Besides, you shouldn't be so concerned with this thread - it was started by an A-Theist after all, so let us have our little moments of irreverence.

Sure, but you are in the wrong forum for that A-Theist.

Try either BANTER, or ...

www.infidels.org

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Oh, this is futile...

*Rings bell*

That's it. Good morning.

[Franko]

What on Earth are you doing in this thread CWL?

I thought I was on your IGNORE list?

You certainly don't seem to be IGNORING me?

Is this another example of an A-Theist saying he will do one thing while he actually does another?

Kind of like when you claim you will be JUST as moral (if not more moral) because you don't believe in rewards and punishment?

If you don't believe in rewards and punishment, then why are you a Lawyer?

If you really want to IGNORE me CWL then why do you keep posting in threads dedicated to me? Why do you keep posting new threads dedicated to me?

Why should anyone believe a word you say at this point? You seem like a typical deceptive, lying A-Theist!

You seem just like the kind of person who behaves immorally, because you don't believe there will be ANY consequences for your actions.

You seem to be taking a big gamble CWL. I wonder what will happen to you if by some miracle you are wrong???

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
What on Earth are you doing in this thread CWL?

I thought I was on your IGNORE list?

You certainly don't seem to be IGNORING me?

Is this another example of an A-Theist saying he will do one thing while he actually does another?

Kind of like when you claim you will be JUST as moral (if not more moral) because you don't believe in rewards and punishment?

If you don't believe in rewards and punishment, then why are you a Lawyer?

If you really want to IGNORE me CWL then why do you keep posting in threads dedicated to me? Why do you keep posting new threads dedicated to me?

Why should anyone believe a word you say at this point? You seem like a typical deceptive, lying A-Theist!

You seem just like the kind of person who behaves immorally, because you don't believe there will be ANY consequences for your actions.

You seem to be taking a big gamble CWL. I wonder what will happen to you if by some miracle you are wrong???
Lighten up Franko, no need to be a dickhead EVERY time you post. How about if we all say we really do believe you are immortal, will that lower your anxiety level?

[Franko]

Hey Fool!

When you get done making up quotes for your "enemies" Lucy Rochelle wanted you to "sex" her up. She is all horny for you lately ... ???

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
Hey Fool!

When you get done making up quotes for your "enemies" Lucy Rochelle wanted you to "sex" her up. She is all horny for you lately ... ???

well, I'm getting pretty sick of saying this, Its about the fifth time....If I have mis-atributed a quote to you...let me know what it was and I will correct it.......can you manage that? Its sometimes not easy identifying your quotes on Free will, they change so much....from never to sometimes to once only...etc. You should ask Xena about it and settle on one position, then your quotes would be easier to identify....


And Franko...I honestly, truly believe you are imortal ok??? no need to stress about it....Franko is imortal. If we agree to accept your imortality will you agree to stop behaving like an ********?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


*Rings bell*

That's it. Good morning.

What? But it was just getting interesting...

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


What? But it was just getting interesting...
Sorry, the five minutes is up.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by CWL
Sorry, the five minutes is up. That was never five minutes.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
That was never five minutes.

I'm afraid it was.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


I'm afraid it was.

It wasn't!

[bangdazap]

I think I understand Franko's concept of free will. When he writes "free will", he means "free will", as in "unrestrained", not as in "freedom of choice" (like everybody else means).
By this definition it is a truism that we do not have free will, the physical world being the most basic restraint on what we want want. It follows that there is no contradiction (by this definition of free will) between having choices in life and determinism..

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


It wasn't!

I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by bangdazap
I think I understand Franko's concept of free will. When he writes "free will", he means "free will", as in "unrestrained", not as in "freedom of choice" (like everybody else means).
What? Franko changed the definition of a common term to fit his own needs? Surely you're not serious?
By this definition it is a truism that we do not have free will, the physical world being the most basic restraint on what we want want. It follows that there is no contradiction (by this definition of free will) between having choices in life and determinism.. Perhaps. But Franko has said that we have no choices at all. He has experessed a sort of rigid determinism which would preclude any kind of choice whatsoever. (Makes one wonder whether consiousness need exist at all in Franko's version of things.)

Upchurch

[Franko]

I think I understand Franko's concept of free will. When he writes "free will", he means "free will", as in "unrestrained", not as in "freedom of choice" (like everybody else means).

I have no idea “What everyone else believes”, and unless you are claiming to read minds, neither do you.

I have stated repeatedly that “free will” is an A-Theistic term which is about as meaningful to me as a “four sided triangle”.

By this definition it is a truism that we do not have free will, the physical world being the most basic restraint on what we want want. It follows that there is no contradiction (by this definition of free will) between having choices in life and determinism..

You don’t have ANY “choices” in your existence in this universe at all. You didn’t get to “choose” who your parents were, you didn’t get to “choose” when or where you were born, you don’t get to “choose” anything – TLOP does all the “choosing” for you.

You have no more “free will” then the Moon does.

… But I realize that A-Theists are easily confused and frightened.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.

:eek: WHAT!?

[Franko]

Upchimp (A-Theist Troll) whined:
Perhaps. But Franko has said that we have no choices at all. He has experessed a sort of rigid determinism which would preclude any kind of choice whatsoever. (Makes one wonder whether consiousness need exist at all in Franko's version of things.)

You spelled “expressed” and “consciousness” incorrectly.

Atoms obey the laws of Physics.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAW OF PHYSICS.

That is what I have expressed. I am still waiting for YOU to express a valid counterargument, but I now realize that A-Theism is only about making Dogmatic claims, and NOT about actually proving any of them (just like any other dogmatic religion).

One should wonder why there is a need for consciousness? Perhaps You will enlighten us A-Theist?

Maybe there is no consciousness? Maybe yours is the only one?

Maybe you are God, and the rest of us are just figments of your imagianation?

[Checkmite]

So Franko, tell me about the last dig you participated in.

[Franko]

Jkorosi,

So Franko, tell me about the last dig you participated in.

Jkorosi, from your posts (and your constant kissing-up to CWL) it is obvious that you have little interest in talking about Religion or Philosophy. One wonders why you are even here on this forum?

Would you care to explain this:

TLOP makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

… or would you care to explain why you believe that anything or anyone other than yourself exist?

After all, there is no point in you conversing with a figment of your imagination regarding imaginary archaeological digs, in an imaginary universe.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko
...it is obvious that you have little interest in talking about Religion or Philosophy. One wonders why you are even here on this forum?

Someone who reads this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11210) might tend to disagree with your assessment. And I'm sure nobody but you truly wonders why I am (or anyone else is) on this forum.

Originally posted by Franko
Would you care to explain this:

TLOP makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

No, because it's your assertion. Would you care to explain it instead?

Originally posted by Franko
… or would you care to explain why you believe that anything or anyone other than yourself exist?

After all, there is no point in you conversing with a figment of your imagination regarding imaginary archaeological digs, in an imaginary universe.

I believe that I'm not the only thing that exists because I can physically interact with my environment. In a D&D game, your character takes "damage", but you don't really get hurt. That's the difference - I've seen no evidence which even remotely suggests that I can physically interact with a figment of my imagination.

I think, therefore I am...and other people think (sometimes in ways I can't possibly comprehend) - and therefore they are. I know they think, because they come up with different ideas than I do, including ideas I do not want them to have.

Also there is the item of other languages - were they figments of my imagination, I would still be able to understand them, like Tolkien's "High Elvish".

My incomplete understanding of the universe is also a testament that I didn't manufacture it.

Of course, I've explained all these before.

[Franko]

Jkorosi,

Someone who reads this thread might tend to disagree with your assessment. And I'm sure nobody but you truly wonders why I am (or anyone else is) on this forum.

I have had that discussion with you numerous times myself. … and that is exactly why I still believe you are simply an A-Theist in drag (pretending to be a Deist). You pay some bogus lip service to a Santa-like deity which you can’t explain and admit you have no reason for believing.

… then you go on to chum around with all of the A-Theists here and essentially agree with them about anything and everything.

Franko:
Would you care to explain this:

TLOP makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

Jkorosi:
No, because it's your assertion. Would you care to explain it instead?

hehehe … you are so predictable A-Theist. Why aren’t I surprised … ?

I would say that YOU are more conscious then your CAR, ergo TLOP is more conscious then YOU. It is pretty simple really … unless you don’t want it to be simple.

Now I am sure that you will bow down and kiss Trixy’s ass and explain to us all how really your CAR is actually more conscious then you are, ergo TLOP can be less conscious. But aside from the obvious absurdity of that statement it raises the question of, if your car is more conscious then you, why isn’t your Car god?

I believe that I'm not the only thing that exists because I can physically interact with my environment.

You can do that in your dreams at night, or in a computer game (or in D&D). Does that make those realities equally real?

In a D&D game, your character takes "damage", but you don't really get hurt.

You don’t really get “hurt” here either. … well maybe YOU do … us figments don’t.

Check it out … here is a loaded gun … loaded gun to my head … pull the trigger …









… didn’t feel a thing.

That's the difference - I've seen no evidence which even remotely suggests that I can physically interact with a figment of my imagination.

Explain how you are talking to me then? I am a figment of your imagination. You are making this reality up inside your subconscious mind. That is why you have Free will, but none of the rest of us do.

I think, therefore I am...and other people think (sometimes in ways I can't possibly comprehend) - and therefore they are.

Short of being able to read minds (and there are no other minds to read) how do you know that “other people” think?

I know they think, because they come up with different ideas than I do, including ideas I do not want them to have. All you know is that you imagine (you perceive) that other people think. But for all you know those other people don’t exist.

When you watch a TV show you might “think” that the character on the show is a real person, who actually goes out and does their “job” 9 to 5 each week. But the fact of the matter is most TV is just made up stuff. That character isn’t real, he is just an actor to entertain you as you wile away Eternity.

My incomplete understanding of the universe is also a testament that I didn't manufacture it.

Ohhh you completely understand the parts you have imagined. As for the other parts … eventually you may dream something up. Try and figure the incomplete parts out, and watch what happens …

Of course, I've explained all these before.

Yeah, you have a reason for everything you believe … except “God” – you just believe that because you like too … :rolleyes:

[The Fool]

[i]Originally posted by Franko

You don’t have ANY “choices” in your existence in this universe at all.

yet he also said to me....

"You do get one “free will” choice Fool. Unfortunately you used yours up when you “decided” to become a brainwashed A-Theist."

Franko refuses to address this inconsistency...He changes his position on free will more often than he changes underwear.

I am also psychic, Franko's reply will not address this inconsistency,his sole aim on this board is to ad-hom anyone who doesn't share his "Xena -warrior princess" religious beliefs. Could it be that Franko's bizzare behavior on this board and his Xena fantasy is a deep seated gender anxiety?..... is he a lesbian trapped in the body of a man? Interesting thought.....

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko

Jkorosi,



I have had that discussion with you numerous times myself. … and that is exactly why I still believe you are simply an A-Theist in drag (pretending to be a Deist). You pay some bogus lip service to a Santa-like deity which you can’t explain and admit you have no reason for believing.

You've never had that discussion with me - instead, you argued with me once over how God must necessarily interfere with the universe constantly, while still calling yourself a deist - even though every dictionary definition and website I can find defines deism as principally a belief in a non-interfering God.

And I don't admit I have no reason for believing...there is a specific reason; that reason just isn't accepted by those are argue with. I don't care - I won't change my beliefs to make anyone else more comfortable.

Originally posted by Franko
… then you go on to chum around with all of the A-Theists here and essentially agree with them about anything and everything.

Poor baby. I didn't realize it bothered you so much. Should I hate them because we don't agree about God? Should I engage in 5th-grade level insult-fests with them?

So you believe in some sort of god (or goddess) as well. Is that supposed to impress me? Does that mean I'm supposed to stick up for you or support you? Of course not - to me, you're just like shemp, or Pat Robertson, or (seemingly) that "thaiboxerken" person. Intolerant of anyone who doesn't think like you. I will treat you all the same, because you are all the same, my xenophobic friend.

Originally posted by Franko
hehehe … you are so predictable A-Theist. Why aren’t I surprised … ?

I would say that YOU are more conscious then your CAR, ergo TLOP is more conscious then YOU. It is pretty simple really … unless you don’t want it to be simple.

Now I am sure that you will bow down and kiss Trixy’s ass and explain to us all how really your CAR is actually more conscious then you are, ergo TLOP can be less conscious. But aside from the obvious absurdity of that statement it raises the question of, if your car is more conscious then you, why isn’t your Car god?

Actually, your version is way too complicated. I'll make it even simpler than you have. I'll say I'm conscious, and my car just plain isn't. To me, calling something "more conscious" or "less conscious" than something else is like calling one woman "more pregnant" or "less pregnant" than another woman, or calling an organism "more dead" or "less dead" than another - either you're conscious, or you're not. It can't be simplified further. Don't you like simplicity?

The laws of physics are traits, not objects. They are concepts we use to explain what we observe - nothing more. They're like the colors. We use the word "brown" to describe what an object looks like. We use laws of physics, such as "Newton's First of Motion", to describe how an object behaves. If we define "consciousness" as self-awareness and the ability to perceive time, how can we call any law of physics "conscious"? What does "Newton's First of Motion" perceive? Can it perceive other laws of physics any more than "brown" can perceive "blue"? You make things complicated by personifying the "laws of physics" and even making them "conscious". Simplify!

Originally posted by Franko
You can do that in your dreams at night, or in a computer game (or in D&D). Does that make those realities equally real?

No you can't do that. Something - anything - that happens in a dream has absolutely no physical consequence in your life; video games are the same. Collecting coins while playing Super Mario Bros. does not fatten your wallet.

Originally posted by Franko
You don’t really get “hurt” here either. … well maybe YOU do … us figments don’t.

Check it out … here is a loaded gun … loaded gun to my head … pull the trigger …









… didn’t feel a thing.

Your morbid hypothesizing is meaningless. Such talk is only possible via an internet forum. Were you to suggest something similar face-to-face with someone, you'd be dismissed with a gale of deserved laughter. And anyway, if even I alone can get hurt, it only goes to prove there are external objects capable of hurting me.

Originally posted by Franko

Explain how you are talking to me then?

The idea that you exist externally explains perfectly well how I can talk to you - at least, well enough for me. You still seem to have a problem with it, and I truly wonder why.

Originally posted by Franko
I am a figment of your imagination. You are making this reality up inside your subconscious mind.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Franko
That is why you have Free will, but none of the rest of us do.

Says who? You? Make up your mind...do you believe in free-willy or not?

Originally posted by Franko
Short of being able to read minds (and there are no other minds to read) how do you know that “other people” think?

They tell me what they think. If you would listen when other people try to explain things to you, you might just figure out other people are real and conscious, too.

Originally posted by Franko
I know they think, because they come up with different ideas than I do, including ideas I do not want them to have. All you know is that you imagine (you perceive) that other people think. But for all you know those other people don’t exist.

Well the best I can do is interpret what I observe. After all, what we observe is all we have to go on - no? Or do you believe in revelation, mister Deist?

Originally posted by Franko
When you watch a TV show you might “think” that the character on the show is a real person, who actually goes out and does their “job” 9 to 5 each week. But the fact of the matter is most TV is just made up stuff. That character isn’t real, he is just an actor to entertain you as you wile away Eternity.

The television character interacts with other television characters. He does not physically interact with me. Your analogy doesn't hold water.

Originally posted by Franko
Ohhh you completely understand the parts you have imagined. As for the other parts … eventually you may dream something up. Try and figure the incomplete parts out, and watch what happens …

You're forgetting something - the parts I don't understand still exist and are observable, even though I don't yet understand them. Something brought them into existence before I ever thought about them. The fact that one has to learn anything is evidence of an external universe.



Originally posted by Franko
Yeah, you have a reason for everything you believe … except “God” – you just believe that because you like too … :rolleyes:

No, again...

I believe in God because the order of the universe suggests design and intent.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


:eek: WHAT!?

If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

[CWL]

oooooh!

This caught my eye in the Comprehensively Defining God Thread:

Originally posted by Franko


I think he said something along the lines of ...

Could the Goddess have created the Universe any other way?

In other words, Einstein was pondering whether the LG herself was bound by Fate.

She is.

If I wanted to debate with Franko I might say something along the lines of:

1) Einstein did not believe in a personal God. He pondered jack diddle about the "LG".

2) So now not even God has Free Will? That sort of robs her of her purpose... kind of blasphemous don't you think? Does the goddess really approve of hubris?

...but I won't. :D

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

But that was never five minutes just now, come on!...

....


....Look, this is ridiculous....

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL
oooooh!

This caught my eye in the Comprehensively Defining God Thread:



If I wanted to debate with Franko I might say something along the lines of:

1) Einstein did not believe in a personal God. He pondered jack diddle about the "LG".

2) So now not even God has Free Will? That sort of robs her of her purpose... kind of blasphemous don't you think? Does the goddess really approve of hubris?

...but I won't. :D

Perhaps Franko would say he doesn't believe in a personal God, even though apparently she has issued direct orders to him now and then.

As for the whole Free Will thing, if the LG doesn't have it - that is, if the LG is also bound by fate and can't make her own decisions just like the rest of us, then there's no fundamental difference between the LG and us normal people. In such case, TLOP is greater than/controls the LG. But what controls TLOP? Did they just magically decide to appear one day?

[Franko]

Da A-Theist Fool-a-phant said:
Franko refuses to address this inconsistency...He changes his position on free will more often than he changes underwear.

Concerned with my undergarments now Fool? :rolleyes:

You really are obsessing.

Lets see how inconsistent I am today …

Atoms obey the laws of physics.
You are made of atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.

Any chance you’ll address YOUR LOGICAL INCONSISTENCIES TODAY?

(I didn’t think so – A-Theists, so predictable)

TLOP makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

What were you saying about NO EVIDENCE for God Fool? That sounds like ANOTHER contradiction on your part. Why don’t you ever even try to address these gaping holes in your worldview?

Ohhh … that’s right!!! You can’t. Poor weak minded A-Theist Fool … :(

[Franko]

Jkorsosi:
As for the whole Free Will thing, if the LG doesn't have it - that is, if the LG is also bound by fate and can't make her own decisions just like the rest of us, then there's no fundamental difference between the LG and us normal people.

Intrinsically there is nothing different between You and Her – that is correct.

(all entities are created equal)

Note: TLOP = The Laws of Physics

In such case, TLOP is greater than/controls the LG.

What you are saying is analogous to claiming that since you use your hands to drive, your hands are controlling your Car more than your mind is.

TLOP is like the LG’s hands.

If this world was a game of DOOM, then the LG is the programmer who wrote DOOM, and TLOP is the program She wrote (TLOP is the rules of DOOM).

But what controls TLOP?

The LG controls TLOP just like you control your hands (or your words).

Did they [TLOP] just magically decide to appear one day?

According to the A-Theists … that is exactly what happened.

Ask your buddy CWL.

Franko:

My wishes of a better Year 2003 after Christ, and to your followers : the same.


Thanks,

S&S

[Franko]

S & S,

My wishes of a better Year 2003 after Christ, and to your followers : the same.

And to you as well, my new Friend!

Happy New Year!

:D :D :D :D

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


Intrinsically there is nothing different between You and Her – that is correct.

(all entities are created equal)

Note: TLOP = The Laws of Physics



What you are saying is analogous to claiming that since you use your hands to drive, your hands are controlling your Car more than your mind is.

TLOP is like the LG’s hands.

If this world was a game of DOOM, then the LG is the programmer who wrote DOOM, and TLOP is the program She wrote (TLOP is the rules of DOOM).



Wait a second...if everything's fate is determined by TLOP, and the LG is bound by fate, how can she control TLOP? TLOP determine her fate. It's circular...unless you mean to suggest that by controlling TLOP, the LG controls her own fate....in which case she has free will after all.

[Franko]

Wait a second...if everything's fate is determined by TLOP, and the LG is bound by fate, how can she control TLOP?

Everything is determined by Fate. Fate determined TLOP.

TLOP determine her fate. It's circular...unless you mean to suggest that by controlling TLOP, the LG controls her own fate....in which case she has free will after all.

It’s not circular at all. You just don’t understand basic cosmology.

You have two parameters, the Initial State (God), and TLOP (God’s will).

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


Everything is determined by Fate. Fate determined TLOP.



It’s not circular at all. You just don’t understand basic cosmology.



You have two parameters, the Initial State (God), and TLOP (God’s will).

No, I just don't understand your cosmology.

All right then...where did fate come from? Who invented it, or set it into motion?

[Franko]

Jkorosi,

I am certain the A-Theists can explain where the Initial State came from. A-Theists can explain everything. Ask Stimpson.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko
Jkorosi,

I am certain the A-Theists can explain where the Initial State came from. A-Theists can explain everything. Ask Stimpson.

Are you saying that "Fate" is the initial state? Or are you trying to dodge the question? If so, why...don't you have an answer? If I cared what the "A-Theists" thought about this question, I would've asked them. I asked you.

[Franko]

Are you saying that "Fate" is the initial state?

Lady Fate, i.e. The Logical Goddess, is analogous to what a Materialist calls the Initial State.

TLOP is merely a product of the Initial State.

… Or are you trying to dodge the question?

Not at all.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Franko


Lady Fate, i.e. The Logical Goddess, is analogous to what a Materialist calls the Initial State.

TLOP is merely a product of the Initial State.



Not at all.

Franko...

Do you have a complete cosmology figured out or are you actually making it up as you go along?

Is the Logical Goddess bound by "fate" or is she "fate"?

What is this Lady Fate stuff otherwise?

How does this link with the Progenitor Solipsist?

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
But that was never five minutes just now, come on!

....

Look, this is ridiculous.... I'm sorry, but I told you I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
I'm sorry, but I told you I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.

Oh, all right...here.....

(pays)

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Oh, all right...here.....

(pays)
Thank you.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL

Thank you.

...well?

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


...well? Well what?

[Checkmite]

...just interrupting the argument to say Happy New Year to CWL, Franko, Regnad and everyone else who happens to check this thread. Cheers!

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
...just interrupting the argument to say Happy New Year to CWL, Franko, Regnad and everyone else who happens to check this thread. Cheers!

A Happy New Year to you Josh! Best wishes for 2003! :)

[Checkmite]

...that was never five minutes.

[Franko]

Do you have a complete cosmology figured out or are you actually making it up as you go along?

Your just making it up as YOU go along – I am just a figment of your imagination … remember?

Is the Logical Goddess bound by "fate" or is she "fate"?

Do you remember my definition of “Omnipotent”?

Not all powerful like the Dictionary says, but Most powerful.

Omni = MOST (Greatest in a sequence)

The LG is the most powerful wielder of Gravity (i.e. Fate).

What is this Lady Fate stuff otherwise?

How does this link with the Progenitor Solipsist?

Long ago, many simpler Universes in the past, there was only One original entity (consciousness). That Entity was the Progenitor Solipsist.

Progenitor Solipsist = Original Primordial Ancestor (of all consciousness)
Logical Goddess = Most evolved (powerful) of all consciousnesses.

[MRC_Hans]

The LG is the most powerful wielder of Gravity (i.e. Fate). Not the dictionary definition of gravity, I take it?

Hans

[Franko]

Not the dictionary definition of gravity, I take it?

She makes the Earth orbit the Sun if that's what you mean MRC, but unlike you A-Theists I don't pretend I can read minds.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko



Long ago, many simpler Universes in the past, there was only One original entity (consciousness). That Entity was the Progenitor Solipsist.



"Luke, I am you Father".........Coming to a Theatre near you, Star wars 17...."The Pregenitor Solipsist meets obi wan"..... Franko, your little home-baked religion gets funnier every day.

[thaiboxerken]

I’m a garbage man. I’ve always been a garbage man. I like my work, I was innately good at it. It is like I was made for it from the instant I sprang from the void.

C'mon guys, why are you argueing science with a garbage man?

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
[T]hat was never five minutes. I told you I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Franko


She makes the Earth orbit the Sun if that's what you mean MRC, but unlike you A-Theists I don't pretend I can read minds.

How can she "make" or "do" anything if she is "bound by fate"?

She has no free will, remember?

If so, then not only is she not "omnipotent", but it appears that she is not even "potent".

She's not much of a "god" then is she?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
I told you I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.

But I just paid!!!

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


But I just paid!!!
No you didn't

[Franko]

CWLoser whined:

How can she "make" or "do" anything if she is "bound by fate"?

She has no free will, remember?

If so, then not only is she not "omnipotent", but it appears that she is not even "potent".

She's not much of a "god" then is she?

Ohhh!!!

Reality is just so complicated when you are an A-Theist!!!

whine some more CWL. Maybe that will help you comprehend ...

Ohh, to hell with it! Just pretend that you have "free will", that no one is "superior" to you (other than Stimpy and Hawking), and that there will be no consequences for your actions.

Obviously anything beyond that will overload that fragile little mind of yours ...

[Aardvark_DK]

As always an excellent answer, Franko! Short and to the point.

Take THAT, CWLoser!

[CWL]

Originally posted by Franko

Ohhh!!!

Reality is just so complicated when you are an A-Theist!!!

That's just it. Reality is more complicated than a simple computer program. The real world does not fit nicely into categories of Booelian constants.

As a lawyer I have to deal with reality every day and therefore understand that formal logic only gets you as far as the premises that are used.

You really should try the real world Franko. I know it can be scary at times (a throw of the dice won't save you in a sticky situations) but in the long run, it's rather enjoyable.

whine some more CWL. Maybe that will help you comprehend ...

Have I "whined" about anything exept for the fact that your constant ad-hominems have the tendency of making this board a rather unpleasant experience at times? But I don't expect you to change, it seems like it's your fate to be a rude and intolerant jerk. I am beginning to feel that you may actually be on to something as to the intrinsic malignancy of certain souls...

Ohh, to hell with it! Just pretend that you have "free will", that no one is "superior" to you (other than Stimpy and Hawking), and that there will be no consequences for your actions.

That's just it too. I don't purport or pretend to be "superior" to anyone. You however do; you claim to be superior to me or to anyone not holding the "one true belief".

Did I hear someone talk about hypocrisy?

"Obviously anything beyond that will overload that fragile little mind of yours ...

More projections. I think the compulsive tantrums you throw once anyone disagrees with you says a little something about the fragility of a certain mind...
Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

As always an excellent answer, Franko! Short and to the point.

Take THAT, CWLoser!

Yea.. can't get a break dammit. He gets me every time.

[Franko]

CWL (A-Theist Moron)

For God’s sake A-Theist, do you EVER think before you post?!?

That's just it. Reality is more complicated than a simple computer program. The real world does not fit nicely into categories of Booelian constants.

If reality ISN’T LOGICAL and OBJECTIVE – EXACTLY like a computer program – then what are YOU claiming???

That it is magical?

Listen CWL either reality is OBJECTIVE/LOGICAL/COMPREHENSIBLE (like I claim), or it is MAGICAL/SUPERNATURAL/RANDOM (like YOU claim).

As a lawyer I have to deal with reality every day and therefore understand that formal logic only gets you as far as the premises that are used.

I seriously pity and pray for anyone who takes YOU as their Lawyer.

Honestly CWl I wouldn't trust you to pick up my mail while I was away on vacation. You are obviously severely brainwashed and potentially retarded.

You really should try the real world Franko. I know it can be scary at times (a throw of the dice won't save you in a sticky situations) but in the long run, it's rather enjoyable.

There are no dice – the Goddess doesn’t play dice with the Universe CWL.

… but I have no doubt I enjoy my existence far more than a pessimistic, cynical, lying, hypocritical A-Theist. That is true today, and it will still be True in 1000 years, or 10,000, or 1,000,000 … You (on the other hand) will be “enjoying” the Abyss long before then … :)

Just look at the two of us in this forum. I would definitely say I am enjoying myself here far more than You are … hehehe …

[Aardvark_DK]

What the hell is "potentially retarded"?

[Franko]

What the hell is "potentially retarded"?

possibly brain-damaged (beyond all ability to repair).

But I am speaking algorithmically, not materialistically.

[Aardvark_DK]

Isn't everyone potentially brain-damaged?

[thaiboxerken]

Just look at the two of us in this forum. I would definitely say I am enjoying myself here far more than You are … hehehe

Ahh, the true motivation of Franco's being here.. To TROLL. I thought god believers didn't think that enjoyment at the cost of other's suffering was a good thing. Does angering people for your pleasure fit into your god-delusions, TROLL?

[Franko]

Aardvark,

Isn't everyone potentially brain-damaged?

Not at all.

--------------------------------------------

Thaifoodken:
Ahh, the true motivation of Franco's being here.. To TROLL. I thought god believers didn't think that enjoyment at the cost of other's suffering was a good thing. Does angering people for your pleasure fit into your god-delusions, TROLL?

Hehehe!!! I just love it when one of these Idiot A-Theists Trolls has to project his own feelings onto me. It is sooo very telling.

Listen Religious fanatic, I can explain why I don’t believe in “free will”, but YOU seem to FORGET that this is a SKEPTICS forum. If you are unable or unwilling to prove your claim to have MAGICAL “FREE WILL” powers then I suggest you run along and preach to the rest of the choir.

www.infidels.org

[thaiboxerken]

I don't beleive in free will, try again.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Franko
Not at all.
Surely anyones brain can be damaged? Except if one is dead. And also then, though it won't matter much.

[Franko]

ThaimeupKen:
I don't beleive in free will, try again.

Great, then TLOP (God) controls You controls CAR, so in the same way that YOU are more conscious then your CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

So what is all this nonsense you A-Theists are always spouting about NO EVIDENCE for God? There is your evidence right in front of your face. What are you some kind of brainwashed religious fanatic or something Ken?

------------------------------------------------------------

Aardvark:
Surely anyones brain can be damaged? Except if one is dead. And also then, though it won't matter much.

There is no physical brain my friend. It doesn’t exist. All that exist is information (Energy). That is all you are, that is all your brain and your body are.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Franko
CWL (A-Theist Moron)

For God’s sake A-Theist, do you EVER think before you post?!?

As opposed to repating dogma and spewing out ad homs? I dunno... you decide.

If reality ISN’T LOGICAL and OBJECTIVE – EXACTLY like a computer program – then what are YOU claiming???

That it is magical?

No... no... you are right of course... it's all just one big 3-D simulation... just like a big game of Doom (only without the flying heads).

Oh, boy... One day you might wake up and realize the limits of formal logic (but I wouldn't bet on it)...

Listen CWL either reality is OBJECTIVE/LOGICAL/COMPREHENSIBLE (like I claim), or it is MAGICAL/SUPERNATURAL/RANDOM (like YOU claim).

Listening and agreeing.

Let's see.

Franko's reality:

1) Gravity is caused by souls=consciousnesses=Gravitons
2) Consciousness makes matter
3) It all took off with the Progenitor Solipsist
4) Then one day, one very special Graviton (who just so happens to be female) decided to make this Universe of ours
5) Only none of that matters because all is preordained and governed by this thingy called "Fate".

= OBJECTIVE/LOGICAL/COMPREHENSIBLE

CWL's reality:

Let's assume that the world we perceive is real.

= MAGICAL/SUPERNATURAL/RANDOM

---

Yup. You win as always.

I seriously pity and pray for anyone who takes YOU as their Lawyer.

Praying is useless. A multitude of hapless clients are destined to retain me.

Honestly CWl I wouldn't trust you to pick up my mail while I was away on vacation. You are obviously severely brainwashed and potentially retarded.

How nice of you to say so. You truly are one lovely Graviton - the pride and joy of your Godess I am sure.

There are no dice – the Goddess doesn’t play dice with the Universe CWL.

Surely She grants you the occasional saving throw now and then? But of course, what would be the point... all outcomes are already decided by Fate. M'kay...

… but I have no doubt I enjoy my existence far more than a pessimistic, cynical, lying, hypocritical A-Theist. That is true today, and it will still be True in 1000 years, or 10,000, or 1,000,000 … You (on the other hand) will be “enjoying” the Abyss long before then … :)

More of that pleasantness and kindness that is so characteristic for you logical deists. Charming.

Just look at the two of us in this forum. I would definitely say I am enjoying myself here far more than You are … hehehe …

I am sure you are, but I am afraid I shall have to cut you off again. Yup - you are officially back on my ignore list until you come up with something original. I am sure I shall hear about such an event as it would surely make the whole board shake.

Happy trolling!

[Franko]

CWL

Happy trolling!

Yeah ... speaking of which, do you EVER plan of presenting evidence for your magic "free willy" powers?

How about some evidence that people who do not believe in consequences for their actions will behave just as morally as those who do, Mr. Lying Hypocritical A-Theist?

Run along now Un-Skeptic ...

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko


Great, then TLOP (God) controls You controls CAR, so in the same way that YOU are more conscious then your CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.


TLOP controls Doctor/Doctor controls medication/medication controls franko....

So In the same way that Doctor is more concious than medication, then medication is more concious than Franko.



The Crickets are still chirping on your "once only" theory of free will Franko.... Here it is again so you can run scared from it again..What did you mean when you said this? If free will does not exist? Ignoring it will not make it go away....

You get one true shot at Free Will. It’s no small thing. It is a very big thing. After that you get no more Free Will, but if you have chosen wisely you will be granted control, and control is infinitely better than “free will”.

http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5645&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

[Checkmite]

Franko, you've got me wondering about why you haven't responded to my analysis of your "TLOP are conscious" argument.

To wit, you said:

Originally posted by Franko

I would say that YOU are more conscious then your CAR, ergo TLOP is more conscious then YOU. It is pretty simple really … unless you don’t want it to be simple.

I responded thusly:

Originally posted by me

Actually, your version is way too complicated. I'll make it even simpler than you have. I'll say I'm conscious, and my car just plain isn't. To me, calling something "more conscious" or "less conscious" than something else is like calling one woman "more pregnant" or "less pregnant" than another woman, or calling an organism "more dead" or "less dead" than another - either you're conscious, or you're not. It can't be simplified further. Don't you like simplicity?

I'm waiting for your response to these points - that is, if you even can. You have a habit of ignoring precise and to-the-point rebuttals of your beliefs. Why don't you respond to this serious argument, with another serious argument, instead of feeding the flames?

Here's something else I wonder if you can respond to without resorting to insults. This was a counter to your compulsion to personify the laws of physics:

Originally posted by me

The laws of physics are traits, not objects. They are concepts we use to explain what we observe - nothing more. They're like the colors. We use the word "brown" to describe what an object looks like. We use laws of physics, such as "Newton's First of Motion", to describe how an object behaves. If we define "consciousness" as self-awareness and the ability to perceive time, how can we call any law of physics "conscious"? What does "Newton's First of Motion" perceive? Can it perceive other laws of physics any more than "brown" can perceive "blue"? You make things complicated by personifying the "laws of physics" and even making them "conscious". Simplify!


I dare you to hold a reasonable and serious debate with me regarding all the points raised in my above two quotes. I'd be willing to bet you can't/won't respond without tossing some insult, using some ad hominem, or calling me an "A-Theist" or some other derogatory term. It has nothing to do with "mind-reading powers", either...perhaps You're just caught in my Gravity...:confused:

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL

No you didn't

:eek: Yes I did!!!

[Franko]

Fool (a-Theist belly-dancer),

is quote fabricating and lies the best defense you can muster for your pathetic cynical little religion?

Don't you have ANY evidence for these magic "free will" powers you all talk about?

How did the Big Bang get started?

I thought NOTHING could escape a singularity?

Why should I believe that an A-Theist will be as moral as a Theist? A Theist believes that God is ALWAYS watching him. Avoiding detecttion of sins does not enter his mind. But that is not the case with an A-Theist (such as yourself).

Won't you show me the flaws in my humble Deist's logic???

[Franko]

Jkorosi (A-Theist in training)
I'll say I'm conscious, and my car just plain isn't.

Yeah, but what about TLOP?

If your CAR is NOT conscious because YOU control (or make) CAR, then doesn’t that make YOU not conscious from the point of view of TLOP which controls (and makes) YOU?

If not explain why not?

This is a huge logical inconsistency on YOUR part, and on the part of the other A-Theists. I have pointed this out to you NUMEROUS times in the past yet you repeatedly fail to respond to it. Why am I guessing that will be the case again THIS TIME?

I'm waiting for your response to these points - that is, if you even can. You have a habit of ignoring precise and to-the-point rebuttals of your beliefs. Why don't you respond to this serious argument, with another serious argument, instead of feeding the flames?

I have responded to these points – YET AGAIN, but I predict it will be YOU – YET AGAIN, who fails to rebut.

Here's something else I wonder if you can respond to without resorting to insults. This was a counter to your compulsion to personify the laws of physics:

The laws of physics are traits, not objects. They are concepts we use to explain what we observe - nothing more. They're like the colors. We use the word "brown" to describe what an object looks like. We use laws of physics, such as "Newton's First of Motion", to describe how an object behaves. If we define "consciousness" as self-awareness and the ability to perceive time, how can we call any law of physics "conscious"? What does "Newton's First of Motion" perceive? Can it perceive other laws of physics any more than "brown" can perceive "blue"? You make things complicated by personifying the "laws of physics" and even making them "conscious". Simplify!

Yeah … in my mind that is kind of like you telling me that we should all pretend that the Earth and the Moon and the planets are actually cubes because you don’t like dealing with the value Pi.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


If your CAR is NOT conscious because YOU control (or make) CAR, then doesn’t that make YOU not conscious from the point of TLOP which controls (and makes) YOU?

If not explain why not?

Now you're complicating my simple theory by trying to add "layers of interpretation" and "points of view".

It does not make me "not conscious" from the POV of the LOP, because no particular law of physics, nor any grouping thereof, has thus far demonstrated 1) self-awareness, or 2) awareness of time (which, as you recall, are the accepted qualifications for the state of "consciousness"). This is probably because, unlike humans, the laws of physics are not material objects that are capable of exhibiting self-awareness of themselves or each other, and the fact that time does not ultimately matter to a law of physics. You see, I never said that a car is not conscious "because I make/control it"; I judge whether something is conscious or not based on the above two conditions - as I did in my last post. There are no "points of view". You are, or you're not.

Here's something to ponder. Cars and humans are material objects. They can (theoretically, anyway) be "self-aware" - though cars are apparently not. But a law of physics is immaterial...it cannot be self-aware because a law of physics has no material "self" to be aware of! Beat that for simplicity.

Also, to address a loose end I predict, you seem to imply that anything that "makes" something else is more conscious than the item it has created, thus again implying that basically everything is conscious. Is a nebula of free-floating noble gasses more conscious than the new star it eventually makes?



Originally posted by Franko
I have responded to these points – YET AGAIN, but I predict it will be YOU – YET AGAIN, who fails to rebut.

"Yet again"? Oddly enough, the post my quotes originally appeared in was never mentioned by you until now. Where did you "respond to those points" the first time? Are you attempting to re-write history? :confused:

Originally posted by Franko
Yeah … in my mind that is kind of like you telling me that we should all pretend that the Earth and the Moon and the planets are actually cubes because you don’t like dealing with the value Pi.

Come on, that's the quitter's way out. Are you going to address the particular points in my quoted post, or continue to pretend you have some innate, divine understanding that us unenlightened mortals don't? Don't blame a kid for not knowing calculus if you've never taught him algebra. Tell me what I'm missing...unless you just aren't up to the task, of course...

By the way, I applaud the almost physically tangible restraint in your reply. I wonder if you can avoid my gravity long enough to keep it up?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
Fool (a-Theist belly-dancer),

is quote fabricating and lies the best defense you can muster for your pathetic cynical little religion?

Don't you have ANY evidence for these magic "free will" powers you all talk about?

How did the Big Bang get started?

I thought NOTHING could escape a singularity?

Why should I believe that an A-Theist will be as moral as a Theist? A Theist believes that God is ALWAYS watching him. Avoiding detecttion of sins does not enter his mind. But that is not the case with an A-Theist (such as yourself).

Won't you show me the flaws in my humble Deist's logic???

Typical cowardly ducking weaving and subject changing...This is simple stuff Franko, Is it too much to ask you to explain why you directly contradict yourself?

YOU said....

You get one true shot at Free Will. It’s no small thing. It is a very big thing. After that you get no more Free Will, but if you have chosen wisely you will be granted control, and control is infinitely better than “free will”.

YOU said it Frank, YOU said it HERE....go and look for yourself and stop bleating about fake quotes...Its there for all to see.

http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5645&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

So why do I need to provide YOU with evidence for free will when YOU believe in free will yourself...

so once again, do the smart thing and SHUTUP about free will until you are able to reach a definite position on it.

I'm not a cruel man Franko, I don't particularly like kicking your head...but you just keep headbutting my foot, what am I supposed to do? They are YOUR words.

[Franko]

(A-Theist) Fool: (a Moron [without the hypen{hehe}])

Typical cowardly ducking weaving and subject changing...This is simple stuff A-Theist Fool, Is it too much to ask you to explain why you directly contradict yourself?

YOU ARE ON A SKEPTICS FORUM!

What is your evidence for “free will”?

is quote fabricating and lies the best defense you can muster for your pathetic cynical little religion?

Don't you have ANY evidence for these magic "free will" powers you all talk about?

How did the Big Bang get started?

I thought NOTHING could escape a singularity?

Why should I believe that an A-Theist will be as moral as a Theist? A Theist believes that God is ALWAYS watching him. Avoiding detecttion of sins does not enter his mind. But that is not the case with an A-Theist (such as yourself).

Won't you show me the flaws in my humble Deist's logic???

[Franko]

Now you're complicating my simple theory by trying to add "layers of interpretation" and "points of view".

"points of view"???

Ohhh ... that's right!

Solipsism is TRUE. You are the only POV ...

[thaiboxerken]

Why should I believe that an A-Theist will be as moral as a Theist? A Theist believes that God is ALWAYS watching him. Avoiding detecttion of sins does not enter his mind. But that is not the case with an A-Theist (such as yourself).

Won't you show me the flaws in my humble Deist's logic???

There is no point in trying to show you the flaws in your logic. You are driven by hate and will not ever change your mind about the atheists.

I have no god belief, and yet I'm moral. I do not avoid sin, I don't believe in it.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Franko
There is no physical brain my friend. It doesn’t exist. All that exist is information (Energy). That is all you are, that is all your brain and your body are.
I would dearly love to bash your head in with a brick - and not because I hate you, but because I care about you and want to help you wake up to this thing called REALITY!

You really have seen The Matrix too many times, eh?

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
This is probably because, unlike humans, the laws of physics are not material objects that are capable of exhibiting self-awareness of themselves or each other, and the fact that time does not ultimately matter to a law of physics.
And this is where your argument fails, Joshua, because there is no such things as "material objects"... according to Franko.

Hmm, but if Franko denies the existence of material objects, like cars, doesn't that render his "KLOP-YOU-CAR" argument completely meaningless (as opposed to it's partially meaningless current state)? Why, yes it does!

[Mephistopheles]

Let's pursue Franko's opinion du jour for a while; it's interesting, even if it is the latest in a series of incongruities:


-We're all made of matter (minds included)
-Matter obeys physical laws
-There is no will, only obedience to the laws of physics

Are we imbued with something extra that gives us WILL? It certainly seems so from my perspective, but if so, what is it? Is will some function of QM? Does MIND somehow organize matter?

'Course, this all depends on what we call FREE WILL. Franko will contend that my precise expression of will is just a byproduct of the precise organization of the atoms in my mind.

And then he'll contend that there is no matter, only energy.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Franko
CWL

Yeah ... speaking of which, do you EVER plan of presenting evidence for your magic "free willy" powers?

How about some evidence that people who do not believe in consequences for their actions will behave just as morally as those who do, Mr. Lying Hypocritical A-Theist?

Run along now Un-Skeptic ...

Please note everyone that Franko has carefully ignored any point I have been trying to make in this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=11382) of mine on the subject. In fact you will find that he has failed to reply to my latest post to him on the topic which you will find in this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=9197&perpage=40&pagenumber=17).

Yet more evidence that Mr. F is nothing but a fundamentalist anti-skeptic liar.

I urge everyone to ask him about the secret of quantum gravity (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=11458) sometime. He knows how gravity works he says... only he won't tell you...

"Un-Skeptic" indeed...

[wraith]

Originally posted by The Fool
YOU said it Frank, YOU said it HERE....go and look for yourself and stop bleating about fake quotes...Its there for all to see.

hahaha
I bet you spent 4 hours trying to find a quote like that too...
lol youre hoot Fool
maybe if you really read it, youll pick up on whats actually being said...

as I said before
If you perceive how Fate works, you can either accept it, or piss find your own system

;)

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


"points of view"???

Ohhh ... that's right!

Solipsism is TRUE. You are the only POV ...

No, I mean there are no "points of view" - what is, just is.

Are you going to counter any of my arguments, or should I not expect a rebuttal?

[Franko]

Thaiboxcarkenny (A-Theist):
There is no point in trying to show you the flaws in your logic. You are driven by hate and will not ever change your mind about the atheists.

Aardvark (A-Theist):
I would dearly love to bash your head in with a brick

Franko (Logical Deist):
Why should I believe that an A-Theist will be as moral as a Theist? A Theist believes that God is ALWAYS watching him. Avoiding detecttion of sins does not enter his mind. But that is not the case with an A-Theist (such as yourself).

Thaimygodtheykilledkenny! (A-Theist)
I have no god belief, and yet I'm moral. I do not avoid sin, I don't believe in it.

Aardfart (A-Theist):
not because I hate you, but because I care about you and want to help you wake up to this thing called REALITY!
(A-Theist: welcome to reality – let me kill you!)

Franko (Logical Deist):
Why should I believe that an A-Theist will be as moral as a Theist?

Why indeed?

For an A-Theist to claim that he will be as moral as a person who believes in God, is as absurd as it is to claim that the crime rate in the United States would be just same if the court and penal system were suddenly abandoned.

If people don’t need rewards and punishments to influence their behavior then why do people need rewards and punishment to influence their behavior?

… And don’t think that the A-Theists haven’t tried this “utopian system” of theirs already. Why do you think the Soviet Union fell?

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Franko

For an A-Theist to claim that he will be as moral as a person who believes in God, is as absurd as it is to claim that the crime rate in the United States would be just same if the court and penal system were suddenly abandoned.

No, those are two different issues and topics altogether. There is no logical correlation between your first and second statement. Please provide evidence for your first statement.


If people don’t need rewards and punishments to influence their behavior then why do people need rewards and punishment to influence their behavior?

This is no arguement of mine, your arguement is on a different level than this.. you claim that people need "ultimate" rewards and punishment to act "moral". I think that all the punishments and rewards are felt during life and not after. I mean, feeling good about helping someone is a reward, this is why I help people, not because I think I'm going to get some heavenly rewards after death.


… And don’t think that the A-Theists haven’t tried this “utopian system” of theirs already. Why do you think the Soviet Union fell?

The soviet union modelled their society based on the Orthodox Catholic religion. The Soviet Union was never really "atheist", the Orthodox Catholic church had a big influence on much of the government.

[Franko]

Franko:
For an A-Theist to claim that he will be as moral as a person who believes in God, is as absurd as it is to claim that the crime rate in the United States would be just same if the court and penal system were suddenly abandoned.

ThaifoodKen:
No, those are two different issues and topics altogether. There is no logical correlation between your first and second statement. Please provide evidence for your first statement.

If people don’t need the threat of punishment or promise of rewards to make them moral then why do you say that they need the threat of punishment and promise of rewards to make them moral?

How is Your logical contradiction actually My logical contradiction A-Theist?

Franko:
If people don’t need rewards and punishments to influence their behavior then why do people need rewards and punishment to influence their behavior?

ThaigraspingKen:
This is no arguement of mine, your arguement is on a different level than this.. you claim that people need "ultimate" rewards and punishment to act "moral".

No I claim that people do good things when they perceive a benefit in doing good things, and they do bad things when they perceive a benefit in doing bad things. You are the one claiming that it doesn’t matter and that it is all just random and magical.

I think that all the punishments and rewards are felt during life and not after.

I really don’t care what you think A-Theist. This is a SKEPTICS forum. I only care about what you can Prove via Logic.

I mean, feeling good about helping someone is a reward, this is why I help people, not because I think I'm going to get some heavenly rewards after death.

Right, but people who DO think that they will get a Heavenly reward after death will be FAR, FAR more moral then you. In your mind being bad is all about not getting caught while you are alive. To a Theist who believes in the afterlife being bad is all about NOT being bad or you suffer for it – regardless of whether you get caught or NOT.

Franko:
… And don’t think that the A-Theists haven’t tried this “utopian system” of theirs already. Why do you think the Soviet Union fell?

ThaiboxcarKen:
The soviet union modelled their society based on the Orthodox Catholic religion. The Soviet Union was never really "atheist", the Orthodox Catholic church had a big influence on much of the government.

No the Soviet Union tried to pretend the same thing that the A-Theists want to pretend, that it doesn’t really matter what you do or how you behave. You can be fruitful and productive or you can be a lazy good for nothing slob. Either way you all end up with the same pay check (same Fate in the end).

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Franko
The Moon ... is just a meme.
The definition of meme I have found goes as follows. 'Memes are the basic building blocks of our minds and culture, in the same way that genes are the basic building blocks of biological life.'

How can the moon be a meme Franko? After all we have landed on it. How can you land on a meme? Perhaps you are using a different definition of a meme. If so can you tell me what that definition is?

You claimed that
'...the Athiest is NEVER willing to explain what he believes or why he believes it himself.'
I have done just that for you so your statement is factually incorrect.

You claimed that
'...the problem that all of the A-Theists have is tha the are locked into this mindset that the universe is made out of the this "hard stuff" called "matter", but the fact is that they are all wrong.
I would like to point out that you can only make statments encompassing all athiests if you have spoken to all athiests about that matter unless that matter is an integral part of the definition of the group Athiests. It is not. You have also not spoken to me about that particular matter and as Athiests' opinions about that matter are not involved in the defintion of Athiests unless you are using a definition of Athiest that does not exist in any book that you cannot logically make that statement and claim that it is in any way factual or correct. In actual fact I do not believe that the universe is made up solely of matter, therefore I am afraid that you are factually wrong in this claim.

You claimed that: -
'This universe, was designed and created by the Goddess.'
Can you provide any empirical evidence for the existence of this goddess? As opposed to any other process.'

You claimed that:-
'Because Man doesn't possess "free will". It was man's Fate that he went t the Moon, he was preordained to do it.'
Can you provide any evidence to support this claim. Who decided that it would take me a few weeks to reply to your post? Was it the Goddess, me, my work schedule, my computer failure, laziness or attempts to obtain dictionary definitions of the terms you have used or a combination of all those factors? Who has written the preordained script and where is it located?

I contend that I got my parents because of "free will". Namely that they chose each other raher than others to marry. If my father had chosen another woman to marry then the DNA currently to be found in my cells would never have existed.

There also appears to be a logical burst in another of your arguments. You claimed that man was '... preordained to do it.' namely go to the moon, you also claimed in relation to everything that happens to me that: -
'It's all luck.'
I don't think you can have it both ways. Either events are preordained - in other words a precise sequence of events determined in advance or events happen by luck, which is a random series of events controlled by the operation of probability.

You claimed that:-
'I don't see that you are controlling anything. Appearances don't make reality.'
If so, who decided that I would wash the dishes tonight and was that appearance rather than reality? Do the dishes remain uneashed perhaps?

In relation to your clams about Gravitons and the Omniverse Franko can you please define wht you mean by those terms?

[thaiboxerken]

Ok, I can play this game as well...

Originally posted by Franko


If people don’t need the threat of punishment or promise of rewards to make them moral then why do you say that they need the threat of punishment and promise of rewards to make them moral?

Why do you insists that I said this? I did not. Also, why do you keep claiming that pollywogs are more moral than shellbacks?


No I claim that people do good things when they perceive a benefit in doing good things, and they do bad things when they perceive a benefit in doing bad things. You are the one claiming that it doesn’t matter and that it is all just random and magical.

I claim that people do good things and bad things based on rewards and punishments. Why do you keep saying I don't? Why do you insists that it's all a magic pill that Jack lost before he could plant the beanstock?


I really don’t care what you think A-Theist. This is a SKEPTICS forum. I only care about what you can Prove via Logic.

Why do you care so much? Why do you keep asking for evidence of martians on venus?


Right, but people who DO think that they will get a Heavenly reward after death will be FAR, FAR more moral then you. In your mind being bad is all about not getting caught while you are alive. To a Theist who believes in the afterlife being bad is all about NOT being bad or you suffer for it – regardless of whether you get caught or NOT.

How is it that you know what is in my mind? Do they teach psychoanalysis or psychic ability at garbage-man school? Garbage-men are immoral because they love to rub garbage all over themselves while their partner spanks them, you are a garbage man, and you are immoral.


No the Soviet Union tried to pretend the same thing that the A-Theists want to pretend, that it doesn’t really matter what you do or how you behave. You can be fruitful and productive or you can be a lazy good for nothing slob. Either way you all end up with the same pay check (same Fate in the end).

No, I'm a capitalist, wrong answer. Why do you keep asserting that Hitler was correct, what do you have against the jewish people anyway?

[Franko]

originally posted by Franko
The Moon ... is just a meme.

E.J. Armstrong:
The definition of meme I have found goes as follows. 'Memes are the basic building blocks of our minds and culture, in the same way that genes are the basic building blocks of biological life.'

That is True, and even your Soul is ultimately made of them (a self-aware meme).

How can the moon be a meme Franko? After all we have landed on it. How can you land on a meme? Perhaps you are using a different definition of a meme. If so can you tell me what that definition is?

A “Meme” is an encapsulated idea. It is like a quanta of information within the perception spectrum of the entity receiving it. The Moon is a meme in the same way that the Earth is a meme.

Think of it in terms of D&D (it is a good analogy), the only thing that is “real” – truly real – is the DM and the players, the world, the characters, the goblins, the trolls, the swords, the castles, none of that stuff is real like the players and referee are real.

It is the same way with the Moon … or the Earth for that matter. God is simply the common frame of reference for us in this universe. It is Her mind, Her story.

You claimed that
'...the Athiest is NEVER willing to explain what he believes or why he believes it himself.'
I have done just that for you so your statement is factually incorrect.

You claimed that
'...the problem that all of the A-Theists have is tha the are locked into this mindset that the universe is made out of the this "hard stuff" called "matter", but the fact is that they are all wrong.
In actual fact I do not belive that the universe is made up solely of matter, therefore I am afraid that you are factually wrong again in your claim.

E.J. I am always willing to play with the A-Theists (or anyone else in here). I am always AT LEAST as willing to explain what I believe as the other party. But I think any rational person can recognize the fact that when one side isn’t interested in defending their position, then it isn’t much of a discussion.

You claimed that: -
'This universe, was designed and created by the Goddess.'
Can you provide any empirical evidence for the existence of this goddess?'

If by “empirical” you mean logically comprehensible, I would have to say … ultimately – Yes.

You clamed that:-
'Because Man doesn't possess "free will". It was man's Fate that he went t the Moon, he was preordained to do it.'
Can you provide any evidence to support this claim. Who decided that it would take me a few weeks to reply to your post? Was it the Goddess, me, my work schedule, my computer failure, laziness or attempts to obtain dictionary definitions of the terms you have used or a combination of all those factors? Who has written the preordained script and where is it located?

The script was preordained when the Laws of Gravity were laid down long ago. Action follows Thought.

I contend that I got my parents because of "free will". Namely that they chose each other raher than others to marry. If my father had chosen another woman to marry then the DNA currently to be found in my cells would never have existed.

But it isn’t like your father and mother just magically appeared – is it? They are part of a long unbroken chain of destiny that stretches back all the way to the moment of the Big Bang. They were entirely determined by the Laws of Physics, and the Initial State. “free will” had nothing to do with it. That is simply wishful thinking on your part. Kind of the same way that a person who is afraid to die makes up a belief in a happy and pleasant afterlife.

There also appears to be a logical burst in another of your argument. After claiming that man was '... preordained to do it.' namely go to the moon, you also claimed in relation to everything that happens to me that: -
'It's all luck.'
I don't think you can have it both ways.

Sure you can. It is relative to your POV.

If you think that my wife is prettier than yours, you might say that I was “luckier” then you. After all, it isn’t as if I had anything to do with it, the selection of my wife was all preordained by the Laws of Physics and the Initial State ever since the moment of the Big Bang. The Universe is made of Matter E.J. Armstrong! There are no magic forces at work! It is all just chemical reactions! Think about what you are actually saying!

Either events are preordained - in other words a precise sequence of events determined in advance or events happen by luck, which is a random series of events controlled by the operation of probability.

If it is a precise sequence, but you have no control over the precise sequence or control over your placement in the precise sequence, then it is a precise sequence, and it is luck at the same time.

You claimed that:-
'I don't see that you are controlling anything. Appearances don't make reality.'
If so who decided that I would wash the dishes tonight and wa that appearance rather than reality?

The LG was the one who decided ultimately. You just perceived Yourself washing dishing. That is how all of your existence really works. You are like the member of the audience in a play, but this is a special play, you get to watch the show from the perspective (from the POV) of one of the characters. But your actions are totally and entirely scripted. You are like a puppet, and the strings of TLOP stretch all the way back to the dawn of time, controlling you utterly.

In relation to your clams about Gravitons and the Omniverse Franko can you please define what you mean by those terms?

Very simply:

Graviton = a fundamental particle = a conscious entity (a consciousness) = a Soul

Omniverse = the super set of all existing Universes, past and present.

You can imagine that the structure or reality is somewhat analogous to those Russian nesting dolls. This universe would be one of the nested dolls, with simpler more primitive universes from the past nested inside of it, and more complex, higher energy universes as the larger dolls which surround it. The Omniverse is the entire set of Russian nesting dolls. The Omniverse is technically the “hypothetical” outer most doll and all of the dolls nested within.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originallynposted by Franko
A “Meme” is an encapsulated idea. It is like a quanta of information within the perception spectrum of the entity receiving it. The Moon is a meme in the same way that the Earth is a meme.

Think of it in terms of D&D (it is a good analogy), the only thing that is “real” – truly real – is the DM and the players, the world, the characters, the goblins, the trolls, the swords, the castles, none of that stuff is real like the players and referee are real.

It is the same way with the Moon … or the Earth for that matter. God is simply the common frame of reference for us in this universe. It is Her mind, Her story.
I am sorry Franko. I do not mean to be rude but thee is little meaningful content here. I am not sure what you mean by D&D. If the moon is not real and merely a idea -did we land on it or did we just imagine it? Who are the players and the referee? Can you define what you mean by God?
E.J. I am always willing to play with the A-Theists (or anyone else in here). I am always AT LEAST as willing to explain what I believe as the other party. But I think any rational person can recognize the fact that when one side isn’t interested in defending their position, then it isn’t much of a discussion.
Sorry Franko I have really trying to understand what you are saying but I sense no context or content with any support or meaning. I do not mean to be rude but for example you made a claim about Athiests which was not true because I am interested in defending my position yet you failed to acknowledge that your claim was not true.

If your ideas have any validity why not simply defend them factually? If they are merely your opinion and you consider that there is no need to develop any logical consistency within them which is what I am afraid your statements to date amount to, then there is little merit in discussing them.

If I can be candid it seems to me that your arguments fall repeatedly on internal inconsistencies and the lack of any support. You make illogical statements about all athiests which you should know are incorrect. You say that things are preordained and then that they are a matter of chance. Then try to defend that position with further unsupported statements. You imply that Athiests cannot be skeptics when the definition of sceptic does not preclude athiests. You resile from using dictionary definitions when people are simply trying to understand you.

If by “empirical” you mean logically comprehensible, I would have to say … ultimately – Yes.
Are you not able then to provide any at the moment then? If so is your claim currently founded in anything other than opinion? I don't mean to be rude but every time you are asked to support your views you resile form those simple requests.
The script was preordained when the Laws of Gravity were laid down long ago. Action follows Thought
Sorry. Not with your there Franko. You again claim preordination with no explanation or support for that claim. I am happy to accept that you have a variety of opinions Franko. All I am trying to assess is if you have anything concrete to support your claims and as yet you have provided none. You are entitled to your opinions of course as I am to mine. It is your claims which you seem unwilling or unable to support.
But it isn’t like your father and mother just magically appeared – is it? They are part of a long unbroken chain of destiny that stretches back all the way to the moment of the Big Bang. They were entirely determined by the Laws of Physics, and the Initial State. “free will” had nothing to do with it. That is simply wishful thinking on your part. Kind of the same way that a person who is afraid to die makes up a belief in a happy and pleasant afterlife.
I don't believe in an afterlife. I think I am merely a set of atoms in a form lagely dictated by evolution and to which I will shortly return due to the processes of death and decay. I do contend that in this current form I can do things which have not been preordained and which do not follow a script precisely because they are in many ways the result of chance. I can however make my own choices within a limited range but they are my choices. Not yours or a god's or a goddesses' or a programmer.
Sure you can. It is relative to your POV.

If you think that my wife is prettier than yours, you might say that I was “luckier” then you. After all, it isn’t as if I had anything to do with it, the selection of my wife was all preordained by the Laws of Physics and the Initial State ever since the moment of the Big Bang. The Universe is made of Matter E.J. Armstrong! There are no magic forces at work! It is all just chemical reactions! Think about what you are actually saying!

It cannot be a simple matter of POV Franko if you believe in the normal definition of words. I believe that your responses are strange and inconsistent. You make statements and resile from them. You will not backup your claims. If I was summarising your responses to date I might contend that you are a programme written to debate in a manner similar to humans. Not as yet debugged and with a limited repertoire of responses. Do you like my hypothesis. I have given some support for my views and will give some more below.

I think that I have as much evidence to support that contention as you have for your views about the Goddess and the preordination of events. In fact you have provided enough contradictory remarks to presuade me that my hypothesis is a perfectly good model for the time being until you can prove otherwise.

If you are not a mere progammers approximation to irrational human thought then a few supporting links for your claims would be helpful. I challenge you to prove that you are a sane, normal human being. That should not be a difficult thing to do. You will have a topography, a history, you will have locations and relatives. You will have context Franko. That is if you wish to challenge my hypothesis.

I look forwards to you providing the context which proves that you are more than a machine with a limited range of responses.
If it is a precise sequence, but you have no control over the precise sequence or control over your placement in the precise sequence, then it is a precise sequence, and it is luck at the same time.
That is something a poor programme might come up with. Meaningless and with no content, logic or support. You have a precise sequence which constitutes luck. You can do better than that.The LG was the one who decided ultimately. You just perceived Yourself washing dishing. That is how all of your existence really works. You are like the member of the audience in a play, but this is a special play, you get to watch the show from the perspective (from the POV) of one of the characters. But your actions are totally and entirely scripted. You are like a puppet, and the strings of TLOP stretch all the way back to the dawn of time, controlling you utterly.
I presume you mean Lord God by LG but I thought he was a goddess?
I don't mean to be rude but once again this is meaningless and without context, support or logic. Very simply:

Graviton = a fundamental particle = a conscious entity (a consciousness) = a Soul

Omniverse = the super set of all existing Universes, past and present.

You can imagine that the structure or reality is somewhat analogous to those Russian nesting dolls. This universe would be one of the nested dolls, with simpler more primitive universes from the past nested inside of it, and more complex, higher energy universes as the larger dolls which surround it. The Omniverse is the entire set of Russian nesting dolls. The Omniverse is technically the “hypothetical” outer most doll and all of the dolls nested within.
Any particular evidence for these contentions Franko. Seems just like a computer programme generating a set of random phrases to me. I don't mean to be rude but where is the support? Where is the context? Where is the rationality?

Let me make a few minor predictions here and I don't mean to be rude.
You will not provide any context for your views or existence because you cannot.
You will tend to resort to name calling soon like early simulators.
You will not provide any support for your views.

If I am wrong you will provide :-
meaningful responses showing a human context.
Provide support for your views.
You will not fall into facile name calling.

Which will it be I wonder.

It is nevertheless possible to have a meaningless views and still be human. Look at Jedi Knight after all. At the moment I think you are different kettle of fish Franko.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko


Won't you show me the flaws in my humble Deist's logic???

Already done that Franko, you are a textbook of logical falacies and inconsistencies..Franko.
What a joke you are....You have no explanation for your inconsistant position on Free will...but have no courage to even try.....

I'm pretty much through with wiping the floor with you. Someone else can take over, Its a shame, you never really put up much of a fight....Too Easy.

[Franko]

So Fool,

... after all this time you are Still telling me that you believe you have magic "free will" powers, but you have no evidence for this belief? How does that make you any less Religious then any other brand of Theist?

And since you don't believe that there will be any ultimate consequences for your actions doesn't that explain why you are a lying, trolling, quote fabricating A-Theist Fool?

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Franko
So Fool,

... after all this time you are Still telling me that you believe you have magic "free will" powers, but you have no evidence for this belief? How does that make you any less Religious then any other brand of Theist?

And since you don't believe that there will be any ultimate consequences for your actions doesn't that explain why you are a lying, trolling, quote fabricating A-Theist Fool?

Why do you insist that there is a celestial sheep watching over us? What evidence do you have for this? Maybe it's your worshipping of sheep that explains why you make love to them.

[Franko]

TLOP (God) controls YOU controls CAR

Why do you A-Theist try and pretend that CAR's are more conscious then HUMAN BEINGS? Is that what you think rational people believe? Did you ever wonder why over 95% of the world's population is against you? You're insane, you can't handle reality.

You don't believe there will be consequences for your actions, and that is just how you behave.

The Abyss will be your consequence A-Theist, whether you believe it or not ...

[Franko]

E.J. Armstrong:
I do contend that in this current form I can do things which have not been preordained and which do not follow a script precisely because they are in many ways the result of chance. I can however make my own choices within a limited range but they are my choices. Not yours or a god's or a goddesses' or a programmer.

What is your reason for believing this is TRUE? What is your evidence for this belief?

All of your actions are preordained.

Let me ask you this, when you launch your web browser and log onto this forum, does the program operate the same way every time?

What makes you believe that your actions are any less preordained than the web browser program you are running to read this post?

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Franko
TLOP (God) controls YOU controls CAR

Where do your sheeps come into this equation?


Why do you A-Theist try and pretend that CAR's are more conscious then HUMAN BEINGS? Is that what you think rational people believe? Did you ever wonder why over 95% of the world's population is against you? You're insane, you can't handle reality.


Why do you contend that sheep are your personal sex-toys? Have you no compassion for what they really want?


You don't believe there will be consequences for your actions, and that is just how you behave.

So you think humping sheep is a good thing?

The Abyss will be your consequence A-Theist, whether you believe it or not ... [/B]

Is that what you tell the sheep, so they'll push back away from the cliff?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
TLOP (God) controls YOU controls CAR

Why do you A-Theist try and pretend that CAR's are more conscious then HUMAN BEINGS? Is that what you think rational people believe? Did you ever wonder why over 95% of the world's population is against you? You're insane, you can't handle reality.

You don't believe there will be consequences for your actions, and that is just how you behave.

The Abyss will be your consequence A-Theist, whether you believe it or not ...
Gosh, Franko. I go away for two weeks in hope you will come up with new material, but I return to see you have not grown up one angstrom. Very sad.

I wrote you a poem though, if you can call limericks "poems".

-----

When he invented Logical Deism
Franko thought it was different from theism
But his dogmatic raving
Indicates what he's craving
Is no more than Please-Look-At-Meism.

-----

[Franko]

Franko:
TLOP (God) controls YOU controls CAR

Why do you A-Theist try and pretend that CAR's are more conscious then HUMAN BEINGS? Is that what you think rational people believe? Did you ever wonder why over 95% of the world's population is against you? You're insane, you can't handle reality.

You don't believe there will be consequences for your actions, and that is just how you behave.


Thaifoodken:
Where do your sheeps come into this equation?

Why do you contend that sheep are your personal sex-toys? Have you no compassion for what they really want?

So you think humping sheep is a good thing?

Is that what you tell the sheep, so they'll push back away from the cliff?

So we see another CWL, Upchimp, De-Bungler style A-Theist implosion in the works here.

I guess the realization that YOU are just another brainwashed religious fanatic after all is more than some A-Theist’s fragile little Egos can bear?

There is no evidence for “free will” A-Theist -- you don’t have magic powers, and there will be consequences for your actions.

[PinkRabbit]

Okay, I'm just wandering by (the joys of having the flu and being bored), but I must admit to finding some of this rather interesting, but quite confusing on some fronts, so pardon if I ask a question (I apologize if it's been asked before ... in fact, I suspect it has, so I'll just beg your pardon in advance).

But if God and the The Laws of Physics are one and the same, and have a conscious state which designs and controls each of us, and we have no free will, then why should anyone be punished for doing anything (by god, not discussing punishments here on earth, since god/tlop would presumably have programmed or not programmed that in)?

Seriously, if free will doesn't exist, does a person deserve punishment for doing what they're forced by their design to do? It seems to me that without free will, then punishment is a purely arbitrary act of cruelty, punishing humans for doing exactly what god made them do.

Example. If I knowingly act to kill someone with malice aforethought and the freedom to not do so, it's wrong and I deserve punishment (earthly or non), but it seems to me that if someone breaks into my house, forces a gun into my hand, and physically puts their finger over mine to force me to pull the trigger which then kills someone (I'm assuming they're physically able to do so), then I'm not responsible and do not deserve punishment.

If God gives us zero free will, then we're simply automatons acting in the way we're programmed (which, I suppose would make this entire exchange scripted, and rather pointless ... but I suppose we could say I'm playing the part I was predestined to play). Would punishment be superfluous at that point? It would be like punishing a car for being a lemon, rather than the engineer who designed/built it.

In fact, if we have no free will, and we still do evil things, then isn't god the one who's evil in creating a species that wars, kills, rapes, maims, and destroys (in addition to all of our better attributes), yet has no choice in the matter?

Actually, as I think about it, that does sound like a rather pernicious influence that would punish a weaker creature for its own second hands sins.

Ow, now my head hurts. Speaking as someone who actually rather believes in god (agnostic theist I suppose you could say), I think I rather prefer my mental image (god of the bumper cars -- he gets the ride going, but we're responsible for how we drive after that).

Oh well, I apologize for intruding. Just sorta thinking out loud.

Barb
edited to change gnostic theist to agnostic theist when I saw the typo ... oops.

[Q-Source]

Hello Tricky !!!

How were your holidays??

Do you come up with new material?. :D

I saw D.W. around.

Q-S

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


No, I mean there are no "points of view" - what is, just is.

Are you going to counter any of my arguments, or should I not expect a rebuttal?

I posted this in response to one of Franko's sorry "you just don't understand reality" excuses for a counter to my arguments.

Let's look at Franko's response in-turn:

Originally posted by Franko



That's right, Franko has posted absolutely nothing in response. I suppose I shouldn't expect a rebuttal, after all. Disappointing in some aspects, but hardly a new development, of course.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Franko

I guess the realization that YOU are just another brainwashed religious fanatic after all is more than some A-Theist’s fragile little Egos can bear?

So now it's not just sheep that you play with, it's also bears?

[Regnad Kcin]

Yes, PinkRabbit, it is brow-furrowing, init? I mean, just try to make sense of the self-cancelling "logic" of this statement that appears just above your last post:Originally posted by Franko
There is no evidence for “free will” A-Theist -- you don’t have magic powers, and there will be consequences for your actions. (By the way, love the italicized "will be." Kinda gives me the willies. That is, the free-willies!)

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Q-Source
Hello Tricky !!!

How were your holidays??

Do you come up with new material?. :D

I saw D.W. around.

Q-S
Hi QS. Holidays were pretty good. I spent a lot of time with my very religious family, which always is... uh... interesting. I hardly had time to think about the boards. I did come up with some new material (I'm writing a novel), but no new "dogmas". The limerick is new material, but it took only about thirty seconds to write.

Hope your holidays were good.

[Checkmite]

Happy New Year, Tricky.

What's the novel about?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Happy New Year, Tricky.

What's the novel about?
A sensitive guy looking for love. Tenative title is Immune to the Moon. Mostly funny, but also probing, or so I hope.

Good to see you again too, Josh.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Tricky


Hope your holidays were good.

More or less.

I just came back to Mexico as an atheist. So, my holidays were full of religious arguments.

What is your novel about?. Don´t forget to follow D.W.´s conversation... ;)

Q-S

[PinkRabbit]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Yes, PinkRabbit, it is brow-furrowing, init? I mean, just try to make sense of the self-cancelling "logic" of this statement that appears just above your last post:(By the way, love the italicized "will be." Kinda gives me the willies. That is, the free-willies!)

Yeah, that's actually the statement that got me started thinking ... well, that and the way Franko gets so mad at y'all for not believing the way he does (I assume it's a he -- if not, my apologies), and slings insults ... when according to his own theory, you have no freedom to believe any other way, so why bother being insulting.

But then I suppose he has no freedom except to hurl insults by his reasoning. And.... And.... And....

And somewhere along that point, my brain started to hurt. It's not quite the pain that occurs when I try to contemplate the size of the universe, but it's close as the spread of "ands" just got exponential in my head.

And then I started thinking about an old Twilight Zone ep ... I think it's with Jack Klugman and Sebastian Cabot (but don't hold me to it) where Klugman dies, and has everything he wants. He think he's in heaven and Cabot (assuming those are the actors, and I think they are) is an angel. Only in the end, he's getting bored, because there's no challenge anymore. And he realizes he's really in hell. And I started wondering if all of Franko's theories are true then maybe we're hell for god, since it all seems pretty damn pointless.

Because I'd think spending an eternity knowing everything that was going to happen would be boring as hell.

Then I started kinda feeling sorry for a supreme being trapped in those circumstances. I'd think we'd be a very dull project if we always did exactly as expected.

Which I suppose works around to a theory that maybe if there is a supreme being, then maybe he/she/it gave us free will so he/she/it wouldn't expire from sheer boredom at having to shepherd us through existence.

And, yes, the flu meds are pretty good.

Oh, and up above, I should have described myself as an agnostic theist ... oops.

Barb

[thaiboxerken]

I think it's rather insane that a person, like Franko, believes that we don't have free will AND that we better make the right decision or we'll be burning in hell eternally. I mean, since I don't have free will, my actions are not my fault, but the fault of his "god" or TLOP. The one that is responsible for my actions are the ones that he claims controls my actions. So I guess I'm screwed from the get go. Then again, he's a garbage man that has sex with sheep, so why bother trying to logically debate with him?

[Franko]

I think it's rather insane that a person, like Franko, believes that we don't have free will AND that we better make the right decision or we'll be burning in hell eternally.

I never expect Idiot A-Theists to understand basic philosophical concepts like “god”, “karma”, “fate”, or “destiny” if they had any innate comprehension of it they would never be A-Theists in the first place.

It is kind of like a person who believes that the Earth is Flat not being able to comprehend why all the people wouldn’t fall off the southern hemisphere if the Earth really were round.

I mean, since I don't have free will, my actions are not my fault, but the fault of his "god" or TLOP. The one that is responsible for my actions are the ones that he claims controls my actions. So I guess I'm screwed from the get go.

You were spawned intrinsically good, or intrinsically evil, that is correct. You didn’t get to decide who your parents were either, nor did you get to choose when (Time period), or where (place) that you would be born. Had you been born 1000 years ago your life would have been very different. Although I suppose from your own arrogant A-Theistic POV you feel that you have used your magic powers to get where you are today?

Then again, he's a garbage man …

Yeah … and I have taken out much more foul smelling stuff than you pissant. I scrape guys a million times tougher than you off the bottom of my boot …

[E.J.Armstrong]

What is your reason for believing this is TRUE? What is your evidence for this belief?

All of your actions are preordained.

Let me ask you this, when you launch your web browser and log onto this forum, does the program operate the same way every time?

What makes you believe that your actions are any less preordained than the web browser program you are running to read this post?

Thank you Franko. Your response is much as I predicted. You have refused to justify your claims yet again and have simply responded with another question.

I'm also more than a bit confused about your reasoning. You said
'There is no evidence for “free will” A-Theist -- you don’t have magic powers, and there will be consequences for your actions.'
That implies cause and effect Franko. Yet under your own reasoning there can be no cause and effect - merely a sequence of actions that have already been written down somewhere. If there is no free will Franko, how can there be consequences for our actions? As everything is all preordained how can any of our actions have any consequence other than what you claim is preordained?

I can however show that eveything is not all preordained. Would you like to know how? If so, all you have to do is to stop calling any other posters on this site names from now on and refuse to use swear words in you posts for the next three weeks. If you manage to do those two things I will show you that everything is not all preordained in three weeks from today.

Is that OK with you?

[ShottleBop]

Let me ask you this, when you launch your web browser and log onto this forum, does the program operate the same way every time?

What makes you believe that your actions are any less preordained than the web browser program you are running to read this post?

We, at least, are programmed to learn from what has gone before, and to alter the way in which we respond to a given stimulus.

[Franko]

Exhibit A: (Brainwashed A-Theist)

E.J. Armstrong:
Thank you Franko. Your response is much as I predicted. You have refused to justify your claims yet again and have simply responded with another question.

I claim no “free will” (like you claiming – no “god”). Aside from the fact the burden of proof is on YOU. I qualify what I say with this:

Atoms obey TLOP (TLOP = The Laws of Physics)
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP.

That is MY evidence for NO “free will” E.J. Now either be a MAN (be a SKEPTIC) or be a little pussy and run along (www.infidels.org).

WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE FOR “FREE WILL”?

[Franko]

Franko:
Let me ask you this, when you launch your web browser and log onto this forum, does the program operate the same way every time?

What makes you believe that your actions are any less preordained than the web browser program you are running to read this post?

Shottlebop:
We, at least, are programmed to learn from what has gone before, and to alter the way in which we respond to a given stimulus.

Right, but that is Fatalism, my Friend – not “free will”. Fatalism is the view that things happening Now were caused by things which happened in the Past.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Franko

That is MY evidence for NO “free will” E.J. Now either be a MAN (be a SKEPTIC) or be a little pussy and run along (www.infidels.org).

WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE FOR “FREE WILL”?

I don't believe in free will, where is the evidence of your god?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko


I claim no “free will”

Liar.

Frank wrote...

You get one true shot at Free Will. It’s no small thing. It is a very big thing. After that you get no more Free Will, but if you have chosen wisely you will be granted control, and control is infinitely better than “free will”.

http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5645&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

Franko's position on free will...
I claim no “free will”
You get one true shot at Free Will
I claim no “free will”
You get one true shot at Free Will
I claim no “free will”
You get one true shot at Free Will
I claim no “free will”
You get one true shot at Free Will
I claim no “free will”
You get one true shot at Free Will
I claim no “free will”
You get one true shot at Free Will
I claim no “free will”
You get one true shot at Free Will
I claim no “free will”
You get one true shot at Free Will
But If I pretend nobody has noticed everything will be ok...

[Franko]

posted by Franko: 1/3/2002 9:19 pm
TLOP (God) controls YOU controls CAR

Why do you A-Theist try and pretend that CAR's are more conscious then HUMAN BEINGS? Is that what you think rational people believe? Did you ever wonder why over 95% of the world's population is against you? You're insane, you can't handle reality.

You don't believe there will be consequences for your actions, and that is just how you behave.

ThaiFoodKen (Another A-Theist Loser) responds:
Originally posted by Franko
TLOP (God) controls YOU controls CAR

Where do your sheeps come into this equation?


Why do you A-Theist try and pretend that CAR's are more conscious then HUMAN BEINGS? Is that what you think rational people believe? Did you ever wonder why over 95% of the world's population is against you? You're insane, you can't handle reality.


Why do you contend that sheep are your personal sex-toys? Have you no compassion for what they really want?
posted by Franko: 1/3/2002 9:55 pm
There is no evidence for “free will” A-Theist -- you don’t have magic powers, and there will be consequences for your actions.

TFK:
So now it's not just sheep that you play with, it's also bears?

[c4ts]

TV say donuts are high in fat, kazoo.
Found a hobo in my room.
It's Princess Leia, the yodel of life.
Give me my sweater back
Or I'll play the guitar!

The laws of physics made me do that. I blame astrology. Wakka wakka doo doo finah eggu LAO LAO LIBBA LAO LAO!!!

Nobody made me post those things, nor even asked me to. I wonder why.

[Franko]

The laws of physics made me do that. I blame astrology. Wakka wakka doo doo finah eggu LAO LAO LIBBA LAO LAO!!!

Nobody made me post those things, nor even asked me to. I wonder why.

When you drive your car around … I bet that your car is actually “thinking” it is the one making all the decisions and it is the one “choosing” the ultimate destination?

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Franko


When you drive your car around … I bet that your car is actually “thinking” it is the one making all the decisions and it is the one “choosing” the ultimate destination?

That's only if you drive that talking car from Knightrider.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko


When you drive your car around … I bet that your car is actually “thinking” it is the one making all the decisions and it is the one “choosing” the ultimate destination?

TLOP controls doctor/doctor controls medication/medication controls Franko.

Franko.....Why is your medication not more concious that you?

[Franko]

Okay Undercover (Panentheist) Fool-a-phant …

How can TLOP be less conscious then You are, yet control you utterly at the same time?

Your CAR is definitely less conscious then you -- correct? Does your CAR control you utterly? Can it? Do you control your Car utterly, or does your CAR control you utterly when you drive?

Ask your alter-ego’s (Juggler, Luciforge Rochelle, Elephant) maybe they can help, if you all put your heads together?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
Okay Undercover (Panentheist) Fool-a-phant …

How can TLOP be less conscious then You are, yet control you utterly at the same time?

TLOP do not control me, they set limits on what is possible and what is not..... I cannot flap my arms and fly...that is not something that worries me, I do not want to flap my arms and fly. I may prefer to watch TV....its my choice. The fact that I cannot fly but can watch TV does not prove, imply or require that a supernatural conciousness exists that controls me.

Your CAR is definitely less conscious then you -- correct? Does your CAR control you utterly? Can it? Do you control your Car utterly, or does your CAR control you utterly when you drive?

Accepted...I control my car. so what? My car does not control me, so what? Where is the leap of faith that brings a superatural controlling being into existence?

Ask your alter-ego’s (Juggler, Luciforge Rochelle, Elephant) maybe they can help, if you all put your heads together?

They are busy guys, they don't want to be pestered by fools like me.

[Franko]

Accepted...I control my car. so what? My car does not control me, so what? Where is the leap of faith that brings a superatural controlling being into existence?

So if you control your less conscious CAR, then how on Earth does less conscious TLOP control you so completely?

Chemical reactions control your mind, not the other way around Fool-a-phant!

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko


So if you control your less conscious CAR, then how on Earth does less conscious TLOP control you so completely?

Chemical reactions control your mind, not the other way around Fool-a-phant!

The repetition is tiresome.

again...there is no evidence a supernatural conciousness controls me. Your blund little arguments do not change that. I am not willing to repeat my response....read it again if you are still confused. Or continue to lie, Its your free choice.

Chemical reactions? you understand the process of conciousness on a chemical reaction level? Please enlighten us..... maybe you should wait until after you have explained quantum gravity as you said you could...Jedi Knight may be able to help you with that one...Hahahahaha....

Franko you have no understanding of the nature of conciousness...you have a theory involving Xena, warrior princess and some logic falacies.....congratulations.

[MRC_Hans]

Frank0:Chemical reactions control your mind, not the other way around Fool-a-phant!So, if you accept this, how come you dont accept "matter makes consciousness"??

Hans

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by The Fool


The repetition is tiresome.


Yes, not only that but he completely ignored your post. He will not answer if his medication is more conscious than him. His "logic" is defeated, he is merely, and has been, taking a beating.

[Franko]

So, if you accept this, how come you dont accept "matter makes consciousness"??

Is being "controlled" by something the same as being "made/created" by something MRC?

[Franko]

Panentheist Fool:
Chemical reactions? you understand the process of conciousness on a chemical reaction level?

Why? ... are you implying that My personal knowledge of chemistry effects how reality works for everyone?

TLOP control YOU (Fool), not the other way around.

TLOP picked your parents -- not you.

TLOP picked where you were born -- not you.

TLOP picked when you were born, and TLOP will pick when you die.

But I can see that dealing with reality is difficult and scary when you are an A-Theist. :(

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko


Why? ... are you implying that My personal knowledge of chemistry effects how reality works for everyone?

TLOP control YOU (Fool), not the other way around.


Wrong...Getting sick of explaining why. Last time Frank, make the most of it. The laws of Physics determine what is possible or impossible for me to do. Within the subset of things that are possible for me to do, TLOP has nothing to do with what I choose to do....

TLOP picked your parents -- not you.
Wrong. My parents picked each other.

TLOP picked where you were born -- not you.
wrong. My parents chose where they would live.


TLOP picked when you were born, and TLOP will pick when you die.
first part is wrong, as explained above...second part is also wrong (how surprising). I could decide when I die, so could a murderer....or a docor if i were vegitative.


But I can see that dealing with reality is difficult and scary when you are an A-Theist. :(


Dealing with reality is something I do on a daily basis, as yet, I have not had to invent a paranormal entity to explain all the things I am anxious about.....
[/B]

[The Fool]

TLOP controls doctor/doctor controls medication/medication controls franko.

Medication is more concious than Franko....QED.

[Franko]

Fool (baa-baa Booey)

Wrong...Getting sick of explaining why. Last time Frank, make the most of it. The laws of Physics determine what is possible or impossible for me to do. Within the subset of things that are possible for me to do, TLOP has nothing to do with what I choose to do....

Is the same thing True for the Moon then?

How about for your CAR? Does you CAR really make “free will” decisions Fool?

DO Atoms make “free will” decisions within the subset of things that are possible for Atoms to do?

Who or what created these “ranges” of flexibility in TLOP so convenient for living creatures?

It sounds like you are asserting a version of Intelligent Design Fool? Can that be?

TLOP picked your parents -- not you.
Wrong. My parents picked each other.

Wrong! TLOP made your parents pick each other.

If TLOP had caused your mother to be born on the opposite side of the world, or if TLOP had made your father been born 100 years earlier how would your parents have been able to use their “free will” to produce YOU?

TLOP picked where you were born -- not you.
wrong. My parents chose where they would live.

Did your parents magically appear from the void one day Fool, or were they born JUST LIKE YOU? Because if they were born just like you, then everything I am saying about YOU here in this post is also true about them. They didn’t get to choose who their parents were either. They didn’t get to choose when or where they were born either.

It is ALL Fate. We choose NOTHING. We merely observe.

Unless you have some evidence ???

TLOP picked when you were born, and TLOP will pick when you die.
first part is wrong, as explained above...second part is also wrong (how surprising). I could decide when I die, so could a murderer....or a docor if i were vegitative.

hehehe … after all this time ….

And this is what you call your more reasonable beliefs? Fool this is nothing but a bunch of unfounded assertions on your part, and not only that, but assertions that I have demolished at least 100 times before on this very forum.

Your parents didn’t use “free will” to have you any more then you used “free will” when you were born?

Tell me Fool when exactly did you get your “free will”?

Do fetuses have “free will”?

Did you have “free will” when you were only a sperm?

But I can see that dealing with reality is difficult and scary when you are an A-Theist.


Dealing with reality is something I do on a daily basis, as yet, I have not had to invent a paranormal entity to explain all the things I am anxious about.....

“Paranormal entity”???

Coming from the guy who’s entire worldview is based on the notion of indefinable magic I’d say that your hypocrisy and self-delusions know no bounds.

Why Foolie … what makes you believe that the LG is any more of a paranormal entity then I am?

After all, I am just a figment of your imagination. Not only aren’t I paranormal, I’m not even real …

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Franko
Wrong! TLOP made your parents pick each other.
Isn't that sad? There is no love in Logical Deism.

Aparently, people are forced to fornicate by TLOP. Does that make TLOP a rapest, I wonder? On the otherside, it means that what most people would call a rapest, isn't because the act was caused by TLOP. So many interesting philosophical possibilities...

Upchurch

edited to add: Isn't it interesting that the "pessimistic religion of A-theism" allows for the possibility of love and Logical Deism does not? hm.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Upchurch

Isn't that sad? There is no love in Logical Deism.



I find it rather silly that he claims that "TLOP" control us, and yet he want's to flame us for being atheist. TLOP and his goddess are the ones he should be bitching at about us, not us.. according to him, we are merely puppets of TLOP. Why would a sane person yell at a puppet?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
Fool (baa-baa Booey)



Is the same thing True for the Moon then?

Guess what Frank...moon is not conscious. Told you that 100 times, makes no difference to you....

How about for your CAR? Does you CAR really make “free will” decisions Fool?

No, It is not conscious. Told you that 100 times, makes no difference to you


DO Atoms make “free will” decisions within the subset of things that are possible for Atoms to do?

No, Atoms are not conscious. Told you that 100 times, makes no difference to you.


Who or what created these “ranges” of flexibility in TLOP so convenient for living creatures?

Another of your Strawmen... I said I am free to do anything that is possible (within the constraints of tlop)


It sounds like you are asserting a version of Intelligent Design Fool? Can that be?

No franko..that old chestnut is the basis if your stupid "tlop/you/car rubbish".... Everything must have a creator/controller..it just MUST have.....IT JUST MUST HAVE...there, that proves it.


Wrong! TLOP made your parents pick each other.

who cares, they met and fornicated...thats how I got here. If you want to believe Xena had a hand in it...thats your business. Don't suppose you have any evidence? Didn't think so.


If TLOP had caused your mother to be born on the opposite side of the world, or if TLOP had made your father been born 100 years earlier how would your parents have been able to use their “free will” to produce YOU?

If my parents had never met I would not have been born, same for you Franko....whats your point?


Did your parents magically appear from the void one day Fool, or were they born JUST LIKE YOU? Because if they were born just like you, then everything I am saying about YOU here in this post is also true about them. They didn’t get to choose who their parents were either. They didn’t get to choose when or where they were born either.

thanks for restating that....

It is ALL Fate. We choose NOTHING.We merely observe.

Unless you have some evidence ???



Thanks for restating that again... but how do you reconcile "all is fate. We choose NOTHING" with "You get one true shot at Free Will."

You continue to attempt to ignore your contradictory position on free will....Pathetic cowardice.

The rest of your post is the same rehashed drivel...I ill move forward to youe ending....

After all, I am just a figment of your imagination. Not only aren’t I paranormal, I’m not even real …

you use this one a lot to exit discussions, It is typical of your cowardice. Cannot explain why you contradict yourself? then simply make the discussion vanish by claiming you don't exist? is this sane behavior?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Upchurch

Isn't that sad? There is no love in Logical Deism.

Aparently, people are forced to fornicate by TLOP. Does that make TLOP a rapest, I wonder? On the otherside, it means that what most people would call a rapest, isn't because the act was caused by TLOP.

I remember a recent argument in which a certain person asserted that some women are simply fated to be rape victims. Whomever controls fate is surely a sadistic sonofab*tch.

[Franko]

UpChimp bemoaned:

Isn't that sad? There is no love in Logical Deism.

Aparently, people are forced to fornicate by TLOP. Does that make TLOP a rapest, I wonder? On the otherside, it means that what most people would call a rapest, isn't because the act was caused by TLOP. So many interesting philosophical possibilities...

Upchurch

edited to add: Isn't it interesting that the "pessimistic religion of A-theism" allows for the possibility of love and Logical Deism does not? hm.

Upchimp, is it possible for you to make a post in this forum that doesn’t amount to you putting your foot in your mouth (French-kissing your own ass?)?

How many times have I said that A-Theists are nothing but a bunch of dogmatically predictable cynics? When an A-Theist is presented with ANY idea his first thought is always something direly pessimistic (ooo! The sky is falling!)

So upon having to deal with the obvious fact that the Universe is entirely Deterministic what is the first thing out of your mouth … ?

Upchimp whined:
Isn't that sad? There is no love …

:( :( :(

hehehe! Yeah, your predictable pessimism is more evidence of your magic “free will” powers … :rolleyes:

Listen Upchimp, let me tell you something. I don’t think you know jack squat about Love and I will tell you why I think that. Love is all about consequences and oaths, and an A-Theist (like yourself) doesn’t believe in consequences for his actions, just like he doesn’t believe in such concepts as Faith, or Hope, or Trust. To your kind Love (like “god’, “priest” or “reverend”) is just the punch-line to a sad joke.

[Franko]

Joshua Korosi:
I remember a recent argument in which a certain person asserted that some women are simply fated to be rape victims. Whomever controls fate is surely a sadistic sonofab*tch.

Yeah … tell us all again how you are really a “Deist” blasphemer.

Why do your actions seem so inconsistent with your stated beliefs?

For all I know you are simply another of the Fool’s harem of sockpuppets.

[Franko]

Franko:
Is the same thing True for the Moon then?

How about for your CAR? Does you CAR really make “free will” decisions Fool?

DO Atoms make “free will” decisions within the subset of things that are possible for Atoms to do?

Who or what created these “ranges” of flexibility in TLOP so convenient for living creatures?

It sounds like you are asserting a version of Intelligent Design Fool? Can that be?

Da’ (PanenTheist) Fool:
Guess what Frank...moon is not conscious.

Define consciousness Fool.

I have said at least a 100 times on this forum you perceiving your action does not equal you controlling your action. All you are citing is perception. Where is your evidence that YOU control ACTION?

But why have you suddenly become so quiet, sheepish, and meek? Normally you can’t seem to stop yapping, but suddenly when I ask you to explain your outlandish claims, you get so nervous … skittish … I wonder why???

Nothing more to say Fool-a-phant?

Franko:
How about for your CAR? Does you CAR really make “free will” decisions Fool?

Da’ (PanenTheist) Fool’s in depth response:
No, It is not conscious.

TLOP makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

You mean like the same way that YOU are not conscious Fool?

Just ask Yatzi, he’s an A-Theist. Even He will tell you that according to Materialism, consciousness is just an illusion.

ALL devout A-Theists believe consciousness is JUST an illusion Fool – you are a devout A-Theist – aren’t you?

Franko:
DO Atoms make “free will” decisions within the subset of things that are possible for Atoms to do?

Who or what created these “ranges” of flexibility in TLOP so convenient for living creatures?

It sounds like you are asserting a version of Intelligent Design Fool? Can that be?

Da’ (Panentheist) Fool:
No, Atoms are not conscious.

Atoms obey TLOP
You are made of Atoms
YOU OBEY TLOP.

Do you mean kind of like how YOU are not conscious Fool-a-phant?

Franko:
Who or what created these “ranges” of flexibility in TLOP so convenient for living creatures?

Da’ Fool:
Another of your Strawmen... I said I am free to do anything that is possible (within the constraints of tlop)

How exactly is it a Strawman Fool? You claimed that TLOP made flexible ranges for YOU, and only YOU. CAR doesn’t get flexible ranges, MOON doesn’t get flexible ranges, ATOM doesn’t get flexible ranges … what makes YOU believe that TLOP likes YOU so much?

YOU made the claim, you explain it!

Franko:
It sounds like you are asserting a version of Intelligent Design Fool? Can that be?

Da’ Fool:
No franko..that old chestnut is the basis if your stupid "tlop/you/car rubbish".... Everything must have a creator/controller..it just MUST have.....IT JUST MUST HAVE...there, that proves it.

Yeah, what the hell was I “thinking”?!?!

You are right, the only thing that really exist is YOU, me and everyone else you “see” are just figments of your imagination. None of this really exists, you are just imagining it all. And you never had a creator.

Franko:
Wrong! TLOP made your parents pick each other.

Luciforge:
who cares, they met and fornicated...thats how I got here. If you want to believe Xena had a hand in it...thats your business. Don't suppose you have any evidence? Didn't think so.

Sure I have EVIDENCE:

Atoms obey TLOP.
Your parents are made of Atoms.
Your parents obeyed TLOP.

Of course … if Solipsism is true and the person reading this IS the only entity to exist, then since YOU create reality, YOU have Free Will. Of course, that would confine the rest of us “figments” to be nothing but the Eternal pawns of your will …

Franko:
If TLOP had caused your mother to be born on the opposite side of the world, or if TLOP had made your father been born 100 years earlier how would your parents have been able to use their “free will” to produce YOU?

Fool-a-phant:
If my parents had never met I would not have been born, same for you Franko....whats your point?

Fate is my point A-Theist. Fate.

Franko:
It is ALL Fate. We choose NOTHING.We merely observe.

Unless you have some evidence ???


Da Fool:
Thanks for restating that again... but how do you reconcile "all is fate. We choose NOTHING" with "You get one true shot at Free Will."

You continue to attempt to ignore your contradictory position on free will

Fool, is twisting words and quote fabricating what you are reduced to, in order to defend your absurd religious beliefs? Is spamming this forum with your same ad hominems and lies day after day really going to make God cease to exist? Is it going to give you “free will”?

You know very well what I said to you, and the context in which it was said. I believe I told you that even if you did get one shot at “free will” you would probably just waste it on becoming a pessimistic little A-Theist. I bet I was right too.

I noticed that You avoided a lot of my question (gee … who else does that?)

And this is what you call your more reasonable beliefs? Fool this is nothing but a bunch of unfounded assertions on your part, and not only that, but assertions that I have demolished at least 100 times before on this very forum.

Your parents didn’t use “free will” to have you any more then you used “free will” when you were born?

Tell me Fool when exactly did you get your “free will”?

Do fetuses have “free will”?

Did you have “free will” when you were only a sperm?

Da’Fool:
Dealing with reality is something I do on a daily basis, as yet, I have not had to invent a paranormal entity to explain all the things I am anxious about.....

First of all massive drug and alcohol consumption is NOT what I would call dealing with reality on a daily basis, but that point aside …

“Paranormal entity”???

Coming from the guy who’s entire worldview is based on the notion of indefinable magic I’d say that your hypocrisy and self-delusions know no bounds.

Why Foolie … what makes you believe that the LG is any more of a paranormal entity then I am?

After all, I am just a figment of your imagination. Not only aren’t I paranormal, I’m not even real …

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko



Fool, is twisting words and quote fabricating what you are reduced to, in order to defend your absurd religious beliefs? Is spamming this forum with your same ad hominems and lies day after day really going to make God cease to exist? Is it going to give you “free will”?

You know very well what I said to you, and the context in which it was said. I believe I told you that even if you did get one shot at “free will” you would probably just waste it on becoming a pessimistic little A-Theist. I bet I was right too.




I have twisted nothing, it is a straight quote. Its NOT the quote where you told me I wasted MY "one free will choice" That was ANOTHER time when you spoke of your "one off" version of free will......
Here it is..

"You do get one “free will” choice Fool. Unfortunately you used yours up when you “decided” to become a brainwashed A-Theist."




I'm sure you do now believe that you told me "that even if you do get one shot at free will..." but you didn't Franko. If you are claiming you did you are rewriting history in an attempt to back away from what you said....

I stopped using this quote because I got bored with it and started using another one.......the place is littered with them...want more frankie?

you said...

You get one true shot at Free Will. It’s no small thing. It is a very big thing. After that you get no more Free Will, but if you have chosen wisely you will be granted control, and control is infinitely better than “free will”.

you said it here....to LeFevre, not to me ths time....
http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5645&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

you didn't say "If you got one true shot at free will" did you Frankie.........

you look so pathetic dodging and weaving...be a man, you said it, you said in multiple times to multiple people...... you have been asked why it appears to contradict your current position....Simply explain, the crying, lies and dodging just make you look silly.

For all you try to make it otherwise.....YOU bring a goddess to a skeptics board along with claims YOU can prove this goddess's existence using logic. YOU bear the onus of proof Franko. Get the picture? Where is YOUR proof? one pathetic falacy of composition?....not much to show for all your time.....You insult the intelligence of people on this board with such a pathetically inadequate "proof".

I may have to go back to Jedi Knight, you are just getting too easy.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


Why do your actions seem so inconsistent with your stated beliefs?


Elaborate.

[Franko]

Fool, is twisting words and quote fabricating what you are reduced to, in order to defend your absurd religious beliefs? Is spamming this forum with your same ad hominems and lies day after day really going to make God cease to exist? Is it going to give you “free will”?

You know very well what I said to you, and the context in which it was said. I believe I told you that even if you did get one shot at “free will” you would probably just waste it on becoming a pessimistic little A-Theist. I bet I was right too.

[MRC_Hans]

You get one Free Will decision. Use it wisely. This is what you have said.

Hans

[Franko]

MRC,

Are you honestly counting on ME to save you from Fate, my little friend?

I must say ... I am touched.

You get one Free Will decision. Use it wisely.
This is what you have said.

You know very well what I said to you, and the context in which it was said. I believe I told you that even if you did get one shot at “free will” you would probably just waste it on becoming a pessimistic little A-Theist. I bet I was right too.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
MRC,

Are you honestly counting on ME to save you from Fate, my little friend?

I must say ... I am touched.



You know very well what I said to you, and the context in which it was said. I believe I told you that even if you did get one shot at “free will” you would probably just waste it on becoming a pessimistic little A-Theist. I bet I was right too.

LOL..you are pathetic. We know very well what you said. It is there for all to see. How can you deny what is there in plain sight?People can read it for themselves and see how unimportant honesty is to you. I take it that logical deism considers lying a virtue?

You remind me of the child with chocolate all over thier face saying "I didn't eat it daddy". Do you intend to pass on this principle of honesty to your children? Do you imagine your little demonstration of childish lying has enhanced peoples opinion of you?

well, destroying your remaining credibility has been fun for a short time....what to do next?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Franko
MRC,

Are you honestly counting on ME to save you from Fate, my little friend?

I must say ... I am touched.



You know very well what I said to you, and the context in which it was said. I believe I told you that even if you did get one shot at “free will” you would probably just waste it on becoming a pessimistic little A-Theist. I bet I was right too. WHAAAT? Delutions of grandeur, Frank. No, I dont count on you to do anything for me. With your present credibility, I wouldnt even trust you to tell me the time.

Yes I know that you said, and in in what context. That you now believe you said something else does answer some questions for me about how you view reality.

Hans

[The Fool]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
WHAAAT? Delutions of grandeur, Frank. No, I dont count on you to do anything for me. With your present credibility, I wouldnt even trust you to tell me the time.

Yes I know that you said, and in in what context. That you now believe you said something else does answer some questions for me about how you view reality.

Hans
Its all over Franko....the only thing left to do is to cut the corpse down and give you a decent burial...

I started this thread with the goal of destroying your Credibility as you have been shown to be blatantly inconsistent and dishonest my work is done.....

I'm not sure if you expected any different, You came to this forum with the sole aim of abusing a group of people. Did you seriously expect to do this unmolested? To come here with only a couple of logical falacies ,a completely inconsitant rant and not much more... Did you seriously expect to wander around abusing whoever took your fancy without someone taking the time to demolish your little cardhouse?

You are a loser Franko, you will always be a loser. You got what you deserved and I have no guilt about doing it.... Now either go away or start behaving like a civilized human being....If you do that I will stop pounding on your credibility.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Franko
How many times have I said that A-Theists are nothing but a bunch of dogmatically predictable cynics?
Many, but what does that prove? Why do you think that claiming something makes it true?

So upon having to deal with the obvious fact that the Universe is entirely Deterministic what is the first thing out of your mouth … ?
1. Not obvious.
2. Not entirely deterministic
3. Consequence of your statement.

Love is all about consequences and oaths, and an A-Theist (like yourself) doesn’t believe in consequences for his actions, just like he doesn’t believe in such concepts as Faith, or Hope, or Trust.
1. I'm sorry, but I don't believe in these magical LD (Learning Disabled) mind reading powers of yours. What is your evidence for these magical powers?
2. You have no actions. You said it yourself. Everything you do is done for you by TLOP. You're just a puppet on a string. Believers of free will, however, know that they've earned whatever consequences they get because their actions are the ones they chose to take.
4. What kind of love do you believe in that forces couples together, whether they like it or not?
5. Why does your Logical Goddess (the prime rapest) force gays and lesbians together? What's the MPB?

Don't mind me, just pointing out the fallacies and inconsistancies.

Upchurch

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Franko
Fool, is twisting words and quote fabricating what you are reduced to, in order to defend your absurd religious beliefs? Is spamming this forum with your same ad hominems and lies day after day really going to make God cease to exist? Is it going to give you “free will”?

You know very well what I said to you, and the context in which it was said. I believe I told you that even if you did get one shot at “free will” you would probably just waste it on becoming a pessimistic little A-Theist. I bet I was right too.

We all know that he isn't fabricating the quote, he has given the thread URL so we can see the original. You are inconsistent in your position on free will. Why do you waste your breath yelling at us when we are nothing but puppets of "TLOP" anyway?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


Yeah … tell us all again how you are really a “Deist” blasphemer.

Are you saying that anyone who would purposefully preordain a woman to be a victim of rape isn't sadistic? Is calling such an act "sadistic" truly blasphemous?

BTW, how does not believing in fate make me "not" a Deist? Deism holds no specific tenet regarding fate. Your cosmology is not the same as (and in fact is oft times at odds with) common Deist belief. I can prove this (and have) by posting links to various dictionary definitions and deist websites. Got anything to back your assertions up?

Originally posted by Franko
Why do your actions seem so inconsistent with your stated beliefs?

I asked you to elaborate on this earlier, but you refused - so I'm guessing that you really can't find any of my actions which are inconsistent with my beliefs. This is hardly suprising, since actions as such cannot be observed in an internet forum.

Originally posted by Franko
For all I know you are simply another of the Fool’s harem of sockpuppets.

Is that all you know how to do - flame? And for all I know, you're really an invention of one or more "anti-theists" here, specifically designed to make fellow theists who support you simply because you are also allegedly a theist look foolish. Thankfully, the theists here with intelligence and integrity, like PotatoStew, tend to remain neutral regarding you.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko (to Joshua Korosi)
For all I know you are simply another of the Fool’s harem of sockpuppets.

Damn, Josh. When I cut you loose as my sockpuppet, I didn't know you would come to this. I apologize. You can be my sock puppet again if you like. I promise not to take your for granted this time.

[Franko]

Franko:
How many times have I said that A-Theists are nothing but a bunch of dogmatically predictable cynics?

Upchurch:
Many, but what does that prove?

It proves that Many A-Theists are nothing but a bunch of dogmatically predictable cynics.

A-Theism has nothing to do with Science or Skepticism Upchurch, and EVERYTHING to do with Pessimism, Cynicism, and Religious Fanaticism.

[Franko]

Joshua Korosi:
Whomever controls fate is surely a sadistic sonofab*tch.

Damn Joshua! … and you call yourself a “Deist”? You sound just like an A-Theist to me.

Atoms obey TLOP
You are made of Atoms.
YOU obey TLOP.

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

If TLOP and your CAR are BOTH less conscious then YOU are, then how come you can control less conscious CAR, but not less conscious TLOP? Why didn’t you get to pick who your parents were? Or when you were born? Or where you were born? Or your gender? Or what elementary school you went to?

What makes you think that You get to “decide” anything Joshua? I thought that Science said it was ALL just the result of chemical reactions (chemistry)? Does the Moon get to decide anything? How about a fetus in the womb? Does a fetus have “free will” Josh?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


Damn Joshua! … and you call yourself a “Deist”? You sound just like an A-Theist to me.

That doesn't suprise me. You believe in a personal God and still call yourself a Deist.

Originally posted by Franko
Atoms obey TLOP
You are made of Atoms.
YOU obey TLOP.

Yes, you've said this already...

Originally posted by Franko
TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

..."controls YOU makes/controls"...yes, I've heard all this before...

Originally posted by Franko
If TLOP and your CAR are BOTH less conscious then YOU are, then how come you can control less conscious CAR, but not less conscious TLOP?

Because TLOP is not a physical "thing" that can control or be controlled, even in theory - unlike a car.

Originally posted by Franko
Why didn’t you get to pick who your parents were?

Because I kind of didn't exist yet.

Originally posted by Franko
Or when you were born?

See above.

Originally posted by Franko
Or where you were born?

See above.

Originally posted by Franko
Or your gender?

Because since I wasn't born, I couldn't control - nor was I aware of - the meiosic processes that led to the specific arrangement of genes which eventually led to me.

Originally posted by Franko
Or what elementary school you went to?

That was decided by other people who enacted various regulations (etc) which dictated where I was to attend school.

Originally posted by Franko
What makes you think that You get to “decide” anything Joshua?

The fact that I appear to decide when presented with x number of choices; the fact that my brain engages in a defined decision-making process in which I weigh the consequences of choosing this course of action (or item) over another - sometimes considering extended consequences far in the future. If everything were predetermined, this decision-making process would be completely useless, and so should've been discarded long ago along with various things like fins and webbed feet. Just because I don't decide everything doesn't mean I don't decide anything.

Originally posted by Franko
I thought that Science said it was ALL just the result of chemical reactions (chemistry)?

That's news to me. There was an era in the universe's history when chemicals didn't exist.

Originally posted by Franko
Does the Moon get to decide anything?

I don't know.

Originally posted by Franko
How about a fetus in the womb? Does a fetus have “free will” Josh?


My memory isn't that good, so again I don't know.

[Franko]

Korosi:
You believe in a personal God and still call yourself a Deist.

Yeah, and as any (A-Theist) Fool knows … believing in God and Deism have nothing to do with each other :rolleyes:

Atoms obey TLOP
You are made of Atoms.
YOU obey TLOP.

Yes, you've said this already...

And the day before as well. My problem is you STILL haven’t provided ANY evidence that it ISN’T TRUE. You still haven’t explained why you believe you have magic “free will” powers just like all of the other A-Theists?

Franko:
If TLOP and your CAR are BOTH less conscious then YOU are, then how come you can control less conscious CAR, but not less conscious TLOP?

A-theist pretending to be Theist:
Because TLOP is not a physical "thing" that can control or be controlled, even in theory - unlike a car.

So You are back to TLOP does not control you again? Your argument is rather circular A-Theist.

What is your evidence that TLOP doesn’t control you? Does TLOP control the Moon? Does TLOP control Atoms? What you say is obviously false. Is this the best you can do Joshie?

Atoms OBEY TLOP
You are made of Atoms
YOU OBEY TLOP!

Unless you have some evidence that says otherwise … ??? (obviously – You don’t!)

[did you get to choose you gender?]

[No] Because since I wasn't born, I couldn't control - nor was I aware of - the meiosic processes that led to the specific arrangement of genes which eventually led to me.

But if TLOP didn’t determine (control) your gender, and YOU didn’t “free will” it, then how did you get to be a Girl in the first place? Was it magic Josh, or are you claiming NOT to have ANY gender now?

Franko:
What makes you think that You get to “decide” anything Joshua?

Joshie:
The fact that I appear to decide when presented with x number of choices; the fact that my brain engages in a defined decision-making process in which I weigh the consequences of choosing this course of action (or item) over another - sometimes considering extended consequences far in the future.

Actually it is WELL established (I just saw this same experiment on TLC the other day) that your body begins to perform an action well before your mind is consciously aware that it is about to act. There is actually a measurable delay between the start of action, and the perception in the mind of intent. So you are wrong, and the evidence is clearly and directly against what you are claiming.

If everything were predetermined, this decision-making process would be completely useless, and so should've been discarded long ago along with various things like fins and webbed feet. Just because I don't decide everything doesn't mean I don't decide anything.

Well if only your wishful thinking were empirical evidence you might have yourself a case, but as it stands you don’t. You got nada.

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

If TLOP and your CAR are BOTH less conscious then YOU are, then how come you can control less conscious CAR, but not less conscious TLOP? Why didn’t you get to pick who your parents were? Or when you were born? Or where you were born? Or your gender? Or what elementary school you went to?

What makes you think that You get to “decide” anything Joshua? I thought that Science said it was ALL just the result of chemical reactions (chemistry)? Does the Moon get to decide anything? How about a fetus in the womb? Does a fetus have “free will” Josh?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


Yeah, and as any (A-Theist) Fool knows … believing in God and Deism have nothing to do with each other :rolleyes:

Deliberately overlooking vital qualifiers? All Deists believe in God, to be sure...but belief in a personal God is not Deism, it is theism purely by definition. Deism is the specific belief in a God which created the universe and no longer interferes with it in any way.

Originally posted by Franko
And the day before as well. My problem is you STILL haven’t provided ANY evidence that it ISN’T TRUE. You still haven’t explained why you believe you have magic “free will” powers just like all of the other A-Theists?

Why do I have to prove it false? The fact that atoms behave in specific ways doesn't mean I have no will. You have yet to show the connection here.

Originally posted by Franko
So You are back to TLOP does not control you again? Your argument is rather circular A-Theist.

What is your evidence that TLOP doesn’t control you? Does TLOP control the Moon? Does TLOP control Atoms? What you say is obviously false. Is this the best you can do Joshie?

Ask the same questions, get the same answers. Are you hoping my answers will change eventually if you ask the same thing over and over (and over and over and over) again?

No, the laws of physics don't "control" anything. They describe behavior, in exactly the same way that color describes what an object looks like.

Originally posted by Franko
Atoms OBEY TLOP
You are made of Atoms
YOU OBEY TLOP!

Unless you have some evidence that says otherwise … ??? (obviously – You don’t!)


That's not "evidence", in any sense of the word. It's a syllogism - a thought, an idea. A concept. Like the various laws of physics.

Do you have any evidence that it's true? Or should we just take your word for it? Show us a law of physics giving an order, and an atom subsequently following it. I wonder if the atom salutes and says "Yes sir!" first.

You are an evil smurf from the future - until you can provide evidence that says otherwise. I'll bet you have none! But that's OK, because I'm really a figment of your imagination. :D

Originally posted by Franko
But if TLOP didn’t determine (control) your gender, and YOU didn’t “free will” it, then how did you get to be a Girl in the first place? Was it magic Josh, or are you claiming NOT to have ANY gender now?

Luck of the draw? A "flip of the coin", as you like to describe everything. I don't really know, so I can't say. You contend that a law or laws of physics determine which way the coin will fall - fine, I'd like to see you predict the outcome of a coin toss using "the laws of physics".

Originally posted by Franko
Actually it is WELL established (I just saw this same experiment on TLC the other day) that your body begins to perform an action well before your mind is consciously aware that it is about to act. There is actually a measurable delay between the start of action, and the perception in the mind of intent. So you are wrong, and the evidence is clearly and directly against what you are claiming.

We're not talking about actions, we're talking about a completely mental and conscious decision-making process. For example - my decision to go upstairs and get myself a drink when I'm done typing this. Sure, I begin the actual physical act of getting up a split second before I'm aware I'm getting up - but I made the decision to go upstairs and get a drink 3 minutes ago; if I hadn't, I wouldn't be getting up at all. You are trying to complicate things by mixing two unrelated topics. Simplify, dude! ;)

Originally posted by Franko
Well if only your wishful thinking were empirical evidence you might have yourself a case, but as it stands you don’t. You got nada.

If you say so...but let me point out that for all your "atoms control your TLOP etc etc" raving (careful...there's a little spittle on the corner of your mouth, there), you've yet to show any real evidence for those statements you make. I'd now like to see YOUR evidence that Atoms obey TLOP, rather than being the other way around. Your assertions do not constitute "empirical evidence" either, so you've no room to talk. You've shown nothing to indicate that they are anything more than "wishful thinking" either.

Saying that "the laws of physics" controls an atom is like saying the "meow sound" controls a cat's vocal cords.

Originally posted by Franko
TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

I believe that God is superior to the "laws of physics", not restrained or manifested in them. You apparently have a lesser opinion of God - though everyone is rightfully entitled to his or her opinion. :)

Originally posted by Franko
If TLOP and your CAR are BOTH less conscious then YOU are, then how come you can control less conscious CAR, but not less conscious TLOP?

Because TLOP is not a physical "thing" that can control or be controlled, even in theory - unlike a car.

Originally posted by Franko
Why didn’t you get to pick who your parents were?

Because I kind of didn't exist yet.

Originally posted by Franko
Or when you were born?

See above.

Originally posted by Franko
Or where you were born?

See above.

Originally posted by Franko
Or your gender?

Because since I wasn't born, I couldn't control - nor was I aware of - the meiosic processes that led to the specific arrangement of genes which eventually led to me.

Originally posted by Franko
Or what elementary school you went to?

That was decided by other people who enacted various regulations (etc) which dictated where I was to attend school.

Originally posted by Franko
What makes you think that You get to “decide” anything Joshua?

The fact that I appear to decide when presented with x number of choices; the fact that my brain engages in a defined decision-making process in which I weigh the consequences of choosing this course of action (or item) over another - sometimes considering extended consequences far in the future. If everything were predetermined, this decision-making process would be completely useless, and so should've been discarded long ago along with various things like fins and webbed feet. Just because I don't decide everything doesn't mean I don't decide anything.

Originally posted by Franko
I thought that Science said it was ALL just the result of chemical reactions (chemistry)?

That's news to me. There was an era in the universe's history when chemicals didn't exist.

Originally posted by Franko
Does the Moon get to decide anything?

I don't know.

Originally posted by Franko
How about a fetus in the womb? Does a fetus have “free will” Josh?

My memory isn't that good, so again I don't know.

:D:D:D

Franko, I've noticed you're beginning to devolve into that mud-slinging stage again. I had no idea my gravity was so strong - but it is saddening.

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Franko
I claim no “free will” (like you claiming – no “god”). Aside from the fact the burden of proof is on YOU. I qualify what I say with this:

Atoms obey TLOP (TLOP = The Laws of Physics)
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP.

That is MY evidence for NO “free will” E.J. Now either be a MAN (be a SKEPTIC) or be a little pussy and run along (www.infidels.org).

WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE FOR “FREE WILL”?
Thank you Franko for that highly CAPITALISED feedback.

Early attempts at the Turing tests produced computer programmes which had little original material to call upon and they tended to reuse previous elements of the discussion - along with a few random words of abuse. You know the sort of thing - answering a question with a question - little relevant new material.

As usual many things boil down to definitions. My Oxford compact dictionary defines God as, amongst other things, the creator and ruler of the universe. Many human beings, including Christians, believe that this is a living being with a special regard for (wait for it) human beings.

By definition therefore this ruler and creator of the universe created him/herself. I think that says it all. Who was the creator of the creator? I see no evidence that this being exists. I see largely random acts of nature operating under the physical parameters which characterise this area of this universe. The effects of natural forces acting in this area of the universe are mitigated to a limited extent by the interventions of carbon based lifeforms.

Now, if after all these millennia, credible evidence actually turned up that there actually is a God who created himself and the universe and who intevened on mankinds' behalf then that would be a different matter and I would be prepared to reconsider the evidence. Until then I will continue to accept as my working hypothesis that there is no God of the Christian variety. If you prefer to define that as an agnostic position, feel free. That is my position. I think that it stands its own ground until you provide solid evidence of your Goddess. How about it Franko? Where is she? Where is your book of predestination written?

You also claim that the moon is just an idea, yet you won't defend your claim that we can land on an idea. On the basis of your own logic you cannot ask me to provide evidence when you will provide none yourself unless you are a special case. Is that right Franko?

As to being a MAN Franko I really don't know what you mean. Is a 'MAN' in CAPITAL LETTERS different from a 'man' in lower case letters? Can you explain your own words please? Are SKEPTICS (in capital letters only or always men Franko?) Do pussys run along when you tell them to? I doubt it somehow.

I have tried to understand you Franko and to ask simple questions but you seem to find it hard to engage with simple debate. Why is that? You seem to feel that because other people take a contrary view from your own that they are somehow inferior to you and to be issued with instructions as you wish or to be called names. That is easy but not very enlightening in trying to understand the views of others.

Now if they do not want to be understood one has to question why they are here. In the case of Jedi Knight, the Dim Reaper, it seems clear that he feels he is doing a service to his handlers. Not an intelligent service as normal people would recognise it but it seems to happily occupy his limited RAM. See, calling others names is really easy. Unproductive, yes, but easy. Particularly when the target is so intent on self immolation.

I don't actually run along for anyone and in particular not for those who are unwilling to jusify their own claims. A well known Jedi Knight tactic. (Saying tactic implies some intent and intelligence so I recognise it's not strictly accurate or appropriate in that particular comparison but you get my meaning.) You seem to feel more comfortable in gross generalisations? Why not prove me wrong and show us the evidence for your theory of the Goddess and physical memes?

Where is your ability to engage in rational debate Franko? Can you justify your own views without the use of CAPITAL LETTERS? Sorry but I've never understood how CAPITAL LETTERS make logical points any more logical. Perhaps you can tell me Franko? I really would like to know.

I have already offered to show that things are not preordained. Are you willing to take up my challenge or are you simply an inelegant third year programme, recycling a limited number of stock phrases? No insult intended.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Franko
It proves that Many A-Theists are nothing but a bunch of dogmatically predictable cynics.
Quoth the Upchurch, "Why do you think that claiming something makes it true?"

A-Theism has nothing to do with Science or Skepticism Upchurch, and EVERYTHING to do with Pessimism, Cynicism, and Religious Fanaticism. By your definition, this is true because that is how you have defined atheism (or A-theism, to clarify the distinction). It isn't how I define atheism, however. I'm guessing most self-proclaimed atheists (or even most non-atheists) wouldn't define it the way you have either.

Poll, anyone?

Upchurch

[Franko]

E.J. Headstrong:

By definition therefore this ruler and creator of the universe created him/herself.

How is that ANY different then what YOU are claiming A-Theist?

You say that The Laws of Physics and the Universe created themselves? SO how is that ANY different? Does your unfounded claim that it is non-conscious make it less magical?

So if a consciousness creates itself … that is far-fetched.

But if a non-conscious Universe creates itself (and then goes on to populate itself with conscious entities) that is perfectly reasonable and logical?

Why the double standard?

I think that says it all.

Yeah … I agree.

Who was the creator of the creator?

You tell me? If Universes can magically appear out of no where, then how come I have never seen a Universe magically appear out of no where?

How did our universe manage to escape the big bang singularity? I thought that Nothing could escape a singularity – not even light?

Maybe we never did escape it? Maybe there is no universe at all, just the consciousness “reading” this post?

I see no evidence that this being exists. I see largely random acts of nature operating under the physical parameters which characterise this area of this universe.

A rather naïve and simplistic view of things, but you if you are happy with that analysis, then why should I care?

The effects of natural forces acting in this area of the universe are mitigated to a limited extent by the interventions of carbon based lifeforms.

yeah sure, and then again, maybe YOU are god and none of it even exist?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
How is that ANY different then what YOU are claiming A-Theist?

It is different because he is not claiming a creator. Remember this sylogism, Franko? I've reworded it slightly to fit LD.

Major premise: Everything real has a creator
Minor premise: The Progenitor Solipsist is real
Conclusion: The Progenitor Solipsist has a creator.

Substitute any term you like for Progenitor Solipsist, and you wind up with the same conundrum. The only way out of the loop is to accept that one of the premises is not true.

If everything real did not have a creator, then it can be said that the universe (and/or TLOP) need not have a creator.

If the minor premise is untrue, then whatever god you inserted is not real.

This is where we always stick, Franko. Try to conceive that some people do not believe the major premise. I know you consider that illogical, but if both premises are true, then you are stuck forever in that unresolvable syllogism.

Originally posted by Franko
You say that The Laws of Physics and the Universe created themselves? SO how is that ANY different? Does your unfounded claim that it is non-conscious make it less magical?
No claim is made, magical or otherwise. We might have some evidence that the universe, as we know it now, started at the big bang, but we know nothing of what happened before that, nor do we claim to. Perhaps, as you like to surmise, it was all energy and the Big Bang was when a lot of it got reconfigured to matter. Of course, I am not claiming this, but just proposing a scenario where the universe could be eternal, requiring no creator.

Originally posted by Franko
So if a consciousness creates itself … that is far-fetched.
It is very far fetched. That is why I (and I assume E. J.) don't claim such a thing. However, if the Progenitor Solipsist is real, then either A) He created himself, B) Something else created him, or C) He is eternal and has no creator. I personally don't believe He exists, so I am not obliged to choose one of these scenarios.

Originally posted by Franko
But if a non-conscious Universe creates itself (and then goes on to populate itself with conscious entities) that is perfectly reasonable and logical?
In a non-conscious universe, a consciousness could simply arise through random, but probabilistic combinations according to (the unconscious) Laws of Physics. It requires no pre-existing consciousness. Perhaps life on Earth contains the only consciousnesses in the Universe. Perhaps somwhere else some other life form won the "cosmic lottery". Right now, I have no evidence for any consciousness other than those that evolved on Earth.

Originally posted by Franko
Why the double standard?
No double standard. I don't believe in a creator. I don't believe in yours and I don't propose one of my own.

Originally posted by Franko: my editing in red
You tell me? If Universes can suddenly appear out of the void, then how come I have never seen a Universe suddenly appear out of the void?
LOL. Because you're not 8 billion years old? The cosmic lottery has very long odds.

Originally posted by Franko
How did our universe manage to escape the big bang singularity? I thought that Nothing could escape a singularity – not even light?
Not sure of what theory you are promoting here. However, I could surmise that if all the energy in the universe were concentrated at one spot, it might just be enough to escape a singularity. Again, I am not stating that such a thing happened, only that it is one possible scenario. There may be many others.

Originally posted by Franko
Maybe we never did escape it? Maybe there is no universe at all, just the consciousness “reading” this post?
LOL. Progenitor Solipsist? No, I believe in the existence of you as a complete human being (not just a consciousness) and of everyone else I have ever met. I could be wrong. Some might be androids. I'm not betting on that though. :D

Originally posted by Franko
A rather naïve and simplistic view of things, but you if you are happy with that analysis, then why should I care?
As to being simplistic, well, Ockhams Razor seeks the simplest solution. As to why you should care, I dunno. You seem to be concerned about saving us slow gravitons from the abyss. You are such an altruist.

Originally posted by Franko
yeah sure, and then again, maybe YOU are god and none of it even exist?
If I were God, there would damn sure be a lot more benevolence for the inhabitants of this Earth (even if they only existed in my mind).

"Thank GOD I am an Athiest " Luis Buñuel.

For the members that want to know more from this ARTIST and that thinks that only Hollywood exists:

http://www.wayney.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bunuel.htm

Thanks,

S&S

[E.J.Armstrong]

How is that ANY different then what YOU are claiming A-Theist?

You say that The Laws of Physics and the Universe created themselves? SO how is that ANY different? Does your unfounded claim that it is non-conscious make it less magical?

So if a consciousness creates itself … that is far-fetched.

But if a non-conscious Universe creates itself (and then goes on to populate itself with conscious entities) that is perfectly reasonable and logical?

Why the double standard?

I note that you have started to use abusive nicknames again. Why? Are you really unable to engage in a discussion without doing so?

Can you at least explain the basis of your own views for the existence of a goddess? That is all I am asking. Why should your views need to be couched in abuse to others? Are they really that shallow? I have already explained what I think and why I think it. Why do you find it so difficult to tell us what you think in a simple, logical, way? Is it too hard for you? Perhaps it is. If so, just say so. At least let me know why you find it hard to justify your views?
There is no double standard. I have already explained my views and provided my rationale for so doing. All I am doing is asking of you is for you to do the same but you won't. Why not?
originally posted by Franko
You tell me? If Universes can magically appear out of no where, then how come I have never seen a Universe magically appear out of no where?

How did our universe manage to escape the big bang singularity? I thought that Nothing could escape a singularity – not even light?

Maybe we never did escape it? Maybe there is no universe at all, just the consciousness “reading” this post?


I am not making a claim for a goddess, you are. It is for you to justify your own claims, not me Franko.
As to my own understanding I see no evidence for a deity. If you say there is a self creating deity then where is the evidence for that claim? It is for you to provide evidence of your own claim Franko, not me. Why will you not do so instead of putting words in my mouth?
A rather naïve and simplistic view of things, but you if you are happy with that analysis, then why should I care? The only basis on which you could say that is if you have evidence that I am wrong and you are right. You have persistently failed to provide any evidence why you are right. Why not? Do you have any proof Franko?

I have tried for some time now to understand what you are saying but you refuse to justify your claims. Can you?
yeah sure, and then again, maybe YOU are god and none of it even exist?

Sorry Franko. What are you talking about? Mixing up your own claims now? Putting your claims into others mouths. It appears that you cannot make a simple statement about your own beliefs any more.

Why should I believe that you exist when you are incapable of intelligent debate? You appear to only be able to dish out abuse. That is sad. Easy but sad. No justification, no sense, no wit, no intelligence, no skill, no humour, in short nothing of interest. Just a programme with a limited repertoire of responses. Come on boys you've had your fun but the game is up and its just silly now. You've been caught out too many times for it to be worth pursuing any more.

[Franko]

in honor of post #5000!

[E.J.Armstrong]

Franko

Thanks for confirming that you are uninterested in debate and are happy to behave like a failed undergraduate attempt at a Turing machine. This sorry state shows itself in a number of ways. Instead of your sad twin Jed 'I am always right!' its Frank 'Oh no its not!'.

Unfortunately its much as I predicted. No defense of your own statements; no logic; no humour; no wit. You see Monty Python have already done your routine better. In fact just about anyone can do it better. And still no sign of the Goddess. She must have free-willed it out of this neck of the woods. Let us know when she turns up again.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Does anybody else find the title of this thread ironic?

About the only thing that Franko has ever really made clear, is that he is definitely not interested in anybody's opinion but his own. :rolleyes:

Dr. Stupid

[Franko]

Stimpson:

Does anybody else find the title of this thread ironic?

Talk to Da’ Fool about that.

About the only thing that Franko has ever really made clear, is that he is definitely not interested in anybody's opinion but his own.

Are you kidding Stimpy?!?!

I’ve asked you to explain why you call yourself A-Theist at least a dozen times. But you never seem interested in sharing your opinion of why you believe that flipped coins always land “TAILS” up.

I have asked why you pretend to have “free will”, but you never really gave me your honest opinion?

I even asked you about:

TLOP (GOD) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

You care to give me your opinion on that one?

[E.J.Armstrong]

[originally posted by Franko[?/I]I have asked why you pretend to have “free will”, but you never really gave me your honest opinion?

Why do you have so few answers Franko? I think it's because you have none. As I don't hae any free will you will understand why I think that you don't exist.

In short a second year algorithm deprived of intelligent input. Come on boys put some new data into the machine. What about something new about the Goddess. How old is she? Does she go out with God? Who made her? Was it God? Do the hae little Godlets? Why does she keep killing children in Palestine and Israel? Is that what makes her happy?
Just asking.