Franko wants to know your opinion

[The Fool]

Franko said...

Do you honestly expect that anyone here believes you when you say that I believe in “free will”?


Well folks. I don't need to tell you about all the times franko has stated that he does not believe Free Will exists in ANY form and has DEMANDED proof from people (even people that have never proposed it exists!).

In light of his statement here...

http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5164&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

Also, to be more precise on the matter of control … either you have it 100% or you have 0%, there is no in between. Most of the time you have 0% control, but every once in a while you have the opportunity to obtain 100% control, at least for a brief time.

I was wondering if people would like to show franko if it is true that everyone believes his position on free will is consistent..... what do you think. Are his statements inconsistent? Are you clear what his real views on Free will are? Is it never or sometimes or has he expressed both views at various times?

[The Fool]

While wandering through the thread I linked to above I found more evidence of Franko's beliefs regarding free will.

Franko said
"I have no free will while falling, but I do have free will or choice of what I will wear. Within the choices of clothes I have"

Hmmmmmm, Lack of Free will does not seem apply to the fashion industry in Franko's cosmology.

[wraith]

Here we go!!

Another "2 + 2 = 3093" believer
:rolleyes:

[Upchurch]

What? Are we still surprised at Franko's numerous inconsistancies?

One of my favorites is Franko's use of the word "fanatic". Among other things, a fanatic can never admit that he is wrong or has made a mistake. He calls me a fanatic even though I readily admit when I err. He, on the other hand, has never conceeded a point, even when grossly in the wrong.

The flip side is that he calls himself a skeptic and says that I am not. It is true that questions nearly every idea put to him on this board, as do many here. What he fails to do is question his own ideas in light of the ideas that others put forth and this is where he fundamentally fails to live up to the classification of "skeptic".

The man is truly a fanatic and a hypocrite. Who on this board, besides JK and Franko's own sock puppet(s), takes him seriously anymore?

Upchurch

[shemp]

Where can I purchase a Franko sock puppet? Amazon?

[Jim_MDP]

Or, poll option #4...


Frankie is a mook.


...yeah, that's the ticket.

[Upchurch]

Heck, I want to know your opinion (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11172) .

(Please note the appropriate board usage.)

Upchurch

humour if you will,

Free will by defintion cant and can exist simultaneously, depends on how you take it to mean as in,
I have free will to do as I please... but that is not true laws govern you written or unwritten
I have free will to do what I want.. again only to a certain extent
I have free will to do as I please... you can change your mind and do something else

I can decide to wake up and have cornflakes for breakfast thats my free will to do so. However I cant go and eat them naked in the middle of Picadilly Circus, theres a law stopping my free will from be allowed to express itself.

If you are saying that Franko says that he has free will to do one thing and by the same jesture no free will to do something then he is correct.

I voted the middle one, I will admit to that.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Heck, I want to know your opinion (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11172) .

(Please note the appropriate board usage.)

Upchurch

From the other thread -

>> If I were truely baiting them, I'd have put it, or a link at least, in R&P<<

:D

[DrMatt]

If the question is "Do Franko's postings resemble those of an automaton", I'd have to vote for Yes. I'd be hard put to think Franko passes the Turing test.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
If you are saying that Franko says that he has free will to do one thing and by the same jesture no free will to do something then he is correct.
I don't think that is the spirit of Franko's opinion, but I may be wrong. I think the problem is that Franko just really is inconsistant.

Upchurch

[hammegk]

Originally posted by The Fool
what do you think. Are his statements inconsistent? Are you clear what his real views on Free will are? Is it never or sometimes or has he expressed both views at various times?

Some belief systems advise a state of deepest meditation is the best place, initially, to ask & answer this question for onesself.

I dislike the thought as I type it, but what do you know that is more consistent than inconsistency?

[De_Bunk]

.

[Franko]

Hey this is great ...

Assuming that Solipsism is True and the person reading this is the only entity to exist (everyone else simply figments of your subconscious imagination) ... I guess I really do believe in "free willy magic powers".

Unfortunately since I am only a figment of your imagination, I doubt I will find "free will" of much use. Ohhh well ... :(

[De_Bunk]

.

[Franko]

De-Bung-Holio...

Keep posting f*ckwit.......

Your desperation is showing Religious fanatic …

after nearly a year...no one knows what your point is....

yeah … and after over a year STILL not ONE SINGLE A-THEIST (yourself included) has presented so much as a scrap of evidence for “free willy”?

Gee … I wonder why?

Have you ever admitted that you have been wrong...???

Ohhh, millions of times. But I’m not wrong about Fate. And it is rather obvious to anyone with a brain …

Atoms obey the laws of Physics.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS (TLOP).

Or do you just totally ignore the proof that you are a troll and carry on laughing at all the idiots that are responding to you..

You are one of the biggest Idiots responding to me. But how does your idiocy constitute proof that your actions are not preordained? You are one of the most predictable morons I have ever seen. Your actions are certainly NOT evidence for indeterminism or “free will”.

Come on Fantasy RPG player..tell us...or are you too busy being an Warrior or whatever..

Ohhh De-Bungler I bet you are just the type to be a D&D geek … What are you above 16 or 17 years old?

You are a spamming kook..

Note to the readers: According to De-Bunked, if he claims it – that’s proof its True. Just have “Faith” in what he says, because he NEVER backs any of his claims with evidence. De-Bungler is a hard-core Religious fanatic from the Dogmatic cult of A-Theism. He will allow no insult to the “One true Faith” to go unanswered. Even when he can’t answer. Then he’ll just use his magic whining powers …

Keep posting the same thing...go on..please

Carry on..

Ohh, De-flunk, I intend to, and you know it.

Lets see if you are spamming these boards with the same point....

I am just waiti9ng for some “smart” A-Theist to convert me to the “One True Faith” so I can be a brainwashed Religious fanatic just like YOU. Aren’t you going to explain to me why your religion is “superior, and how if I am an A-Theist I will acquire magic mind-reading “powers”, not to mention supernatural “free will”?

Or how about explaining to me how you have proved that you will cease to exist when you die, so there will be no ultimate consequences for our actions? Is no ultimate consequences suppose to make me a more moral person, or just a lying hypocritical sack-o-**** like yourself?

Maybe someone should have a better look at your posts to see if your just here to spam the boards with the same thing repeated over 3000 times...

I wonder..

Why don’t you just present some irrefutable evidence for your “free willy” god and shut me up once and for all?

Maybe because you have no evidence for the nonsense you believe?

Prove me wrong De-Bungler.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Franko
But I’m not wrong about Fate. And it is rather obvious to anyone with a brain …

Atoms obey the laws of Physics.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS (TLOP).Libraries contain books.
When you step into a library
You are then a book.

[Regnad Kcin]

Otherwise known as The Law of Dewey (TLOD).

Franko went fishing. He stopped his small boat, and put a morsel of nothing on the hook (being certain to first cut the head off so it'd be juicy) and cast away... the no-bait landed, >sploop!< and the sinkers carried it downward...

to a level where some A-Fish were swimming merrily along. One after another, the A-Fish spied the delectable nothing-on-a-hook, and said to themselves, "This is worthy of pursuit. This is meaningful. This is what I want!" and snapped their A-Mouths closed on it. The hook penetrated the lips of these A-Fish, and they were reeled in by the masterbaiter, Franko the A-Fisherman.


Franko went home with his bucketfull of A-Fish, laughing quietly to himself.

"These will make a fine meal."

[Franko]

He stopped his small boat, and put a morsel of nothing on the hook

The A-Theists sure can't resist NOTHING.

They are drawn to it, and they are helpless to resist. It is their Fate.

Originally posted by Franko


The A-Theists sure can't resist NOTHING.

They are drawn to it, and they are helpless to resist. It is their Fate.

Must... have... nothing... can't hold myself... back...

cursed Fate. That hook sure hurts!

[Franko]

That hook sure hurts!

I guess some Gravitons just have an inherent desire for pain, suffering, and despair. That is what they find most beneficial. :confused:

[wraith]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
Libraries contain books.
When you step into a library
You are then a book.

Thanks for the donation....
now get out of here
;)

[KelvinG]

Y'know, it's really quite easy to put Franko on ignore.

You won't have to listen to his redundant drivel any longer and if enough people do it this angry little man can run off to another message board and scream and whine and cry to a whole new group of listeners.

But if you are not prepared to do that, then don't whine yourself that Franko is an idiot. He's getting what he wants here. Lots of attention and plenty of resistance.

[The Fool]

well Folks, Franko and a few others have got some stuff off their chests .....now back to work.

Frank. Do you have any intention of providing some evidence for the existence of free will? Since you claim that it exists at certain times then are you willing to tell us what these times are? You constantly abuse people on the topic of free will, can you please clear up the apparent hypocracy of your position?

and also, according to the poll results so far, your perception of reality and reality seem to differ somewhat....

Do you honestly expect that anyone here believes you when you say that I believe in “free will”?


yes I do expect you to believe it Frank, It has been proven.

Now take some advice son, you are looking pretty silly. Shut up about the free will thing until you have settled on a consistant position yourself.

[Franko]

Okay … so 33 people now. Let’s see, that’s Fool, CWL, UpChirp, Aardvark, De-Bungler, Tricky, Lucy-Rochelle, Titanpout, Evildildo, Whitemeat, Shrimp, JamesXYZ, (yeah-“that”-guy), “Dr.” Mutt, plus 19 of “The Fool’s” other sockpuppets/alterlogins.

You know … The “Undercover”elephant use to like useless polls a lot as well (when he was around) Especially after getting a spanking, he would seek the approval of the “masses” to reassure him that he wasn’t crazy, and Solipsism wasn’t really True … But “we” all know that it is True. We are just waiting for YOU to figure it out …


… In the mean time, since “33 people” are trying to tell me I am inconsistent in my beliefs perhaps there will be at least one with a nutsack large enough to come forward and explain exactly and specifically where I am being inconsistent. Because -- as I must tell you -- there is nothing a Logical deists hates more then Logical Inconsistency.

Okay so my first question, which (if either) of these statements (which I believe) is FALSE?

A) Atoms obey the Laws of Physics (TRUE or FALSE)
B) YOU are made of Atoms. (TRUE or FALSE)

Question #2: I believe that …

TLOP makes (controls) YOU makes (controls) CAR

Ergo,

TLOP more conscious than YOU more conscious than CAR

Please! … show me the error of my ways? Where is the Logical Inconsistency in the above statements?

I want nothing more than to be a “smart” A-Theist like the “33” of YOU. I implore YOU, I am but a humble and lowly Deist, and not a mighty A-Theist of the “One True Faith” (or is that “True for One Faith”? …). Please explain to me what an “intelligent” person with a vastly “superior” metaphysical belief system (which although identical to a Religion in ALL ways, [by ANY meaningful definition of that term] is never-the-less, NOT a Religion) should believe in this regard?

Come on … there are “33” of you. Surely at least one can give some straight forward answers to a couple of simple Questions???

If I am inconsistent on these beliefs … show me the “inconsistency”??

:confused:

Want to know my prophecy of what happens next?

Franko says...A) Atoms obey the Laws of Physics (TRUE or FALSE)
B) YOU are made of Atoms. (TRUE or FALSE)

Question #2: I believe that …

TLOP makes (controls) YOU makes (controls) CAR

Ergo,

TLOP more conscious than YOU more conscious than CAR
I'll give it ago answering it.

A:- Both...reason only as Physics is currently defined.
B:- True ,by believing the definiton of atoms and energy currently standing.
False if you believe we are predominently water or carbon based.
(based on water is not an atom?)

Franko says.....Question #2: I believe that …

TLOP makes (controls) YOU makes (controls) CAR

Ergo,

TLOP more conscious than YOU more conscious than CAR
I cannot answer a question on what your believe only you can answer that the above is not a queston tht is what you personally believe in as the underscoring says.

I can answer a question on what I think.

TLOP controls you.. No your consious/subconsious controls you. I am influenced/co-exist with theTLOP not controlled by it


TLOP By taking the meaning of aware of my surroundings and possessing the ability to act within it conscious I am more.
TLOP(the law of physics) has no conscious it is not alive same as the car. You control the car, the car moves through the TLOP.

[CWL]

I must say that I personally find it particularly intriguing how Franko manages to combine these two statements:

1) There is no free will. All is preordained.
2) The threat of punishment is necessary in order for people to act moral.

Read all about it (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=266694#post266694).

[E.J.Armstrong]

Franko.
Any chance of replying to our discussion on the other thread?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Franko
If I am inconsistent on these beliefs … show me the “inconsistency”??



Frank, the inconsistencies are outlined at the start of the thread.

How does your position of "no free will" remain consistent with your statements that you are able to exercise free will "sometimes"? Is that simple enough?...your statements on free will on this forum are not the same....mostly you shreak "No" sometimes you say "sometimes". That is why people have said your position is inconsistent. This will not change until you explain the "sometimes free will" thing.

[The Fool]

bump

[CWL]

Double bump.

---

Franko,

It would at this point in time not only be pertinent to answer The Fool's question but also how you manage to combine these two assertions of yours:

1) There is no free will. All is preordained.
2) The threat of punishment is necessary in order for people to act moral.

Why is, in your reasonable opinion, "free will" not a necessary prerequisite for Assertion 2) above?

[The Fool]

NEWS FLASH:

Today In the "Gods, TLOP, Drivers, Cars" thread yet another Free will policy was released by L Ron Franko from the Church of the Logical Goddess.

"You do get one “free will” choice Fool. Unfortunately you used yours up when you “decided” to become a brainwashed A-Theist."


So now church membership includes THREE (count them!) THREE positions on Free Will. Members may believe they have either none, some, or a one off offer..... They may hold all three views and still be able to Quote thier messiahs words in support of their position! Now thats what I call customer service! This church can provide whatever the budding new member desires.

[CWL]

More positive news on the subject of free will from the Church of Logical Deism:


Free Will Assertion 1: (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=10623&perpage=40&highlight=who%20AND%20told%20AND%20you%20AND%20suf fer%20AND%20stupid&pagenumber=2)
Originally posted by Franko
Besides, God didn’t make you. And since She didn’t, if you suffer it is your own stupid fault! Who told you to suffer?Obviously, according to the Church of Logical Deism, we have a free choice to suffer or not to suffer.


Free Will Asserion 2: (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=10469&perpage=40&highlight=Decision%20Junction&pagenumber=2)
Originally posted by Franko
Okay … now this is called a Worldtree, and it represents your potential paths through reality (all of us have a tree like this). Now even though you can perceive a multitude of different potential paths, in reality you only actually get to choose ONE (your worldline). YOU would be represented as a point traveling along this Worldtree, and on this diagram you are always moving up towards the top of the paper (the future). When you reach a branch on the tree, that represents a Decision Junction (DJ). This is a place where your MPB algorithm is called, and it is forced to generate an output (You have to “choose” which branch is best to take).Ah! The Church of Logical Deism even has a term ("Decision Junction") for the points in time where we are forced to choose. One may thus conclude that the existence of "Free Will" is an integral part of the Logical Deist theology. Well it should be. The Logical Deists namely hold that we are all responsible for our actions, that there are "ultimate consequenses" for them - so be careful which choices you make people! Don't want to end up in the "Abyss" now...

Yet, the Logical Deists at the same time submit that all is preordained and that we "have no choice". Illogical? Never....

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Originally posted by CWL
More positive news on the subject of free will from the Church of Logical Deism:


Free Will Assertion 1: (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=10623&perpage=40&highlight=who%20AND%20told%20AND%20you%20AND%20suf fer%20AND%20stupid&pagenumber=2)
Obviously, according to the Church of Logical Deism, we have a free choice to suffer or not to suffer.


Free Will Asserion 2: (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=10469&perpage=40&highlight=Decision%20Junction&pagenumber=2)
Ah! The Church of Logical Deism even has a term ("Decision Junction") for the points in time where we are forced to choose. One may thus conclude that the existence of "Free Will" is an integral part of the Logical Deist theology. Well it should be. The Logical Deists namely hold that we are all responsible for our actions, that there are "ultimate consequenses" for them - so be careful which choices you make people! Don't want to end up in the "Abyss" now...

Yet, the Logical Deists at the same time submit that all is preordained and that we "have no choice". Illogical? Never....

http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/banghead.gif

And, BTW, why you use the plural to refer to the only member of the LD cult?

[CWL]

Originally posted by Lucifuge Rofocale
And, BTW, why you use the plural to refer to the only member of the LD cult?

I recognize the right of religious freedom for all minorities, including sock puppets.

[Doctor X]

Sunflower that Radiates:

I can decide to wake up and have cornflakes for breakfast thats my free will to do so. However I cant go and eat them naked in the middle of Picadilly Circus, . . .

Damn . . . looked forward to seeing that. . . .

I hope Franko you werent calling me a sock puppet I can assure you I am nobodies sock puppet.

You can . . . snicker snicker . . . be my giggle giggle . . . my sockpuppett [RIGHT, STOP THAT!--Ed.]

Er . . . yes . . . sorry . . . anyways it appears, once again, despite having been doused with a few buckets gather'd from the more brackish well the individual continues to deny he is all wet.

Quoth Sanjuro Yojimbo:

Can't help fools.

http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/staff/wynnho/pix/mifune.jpg

--J.D.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Franko
Okay … so 33 people now. Let’s see, that’s Fool, CWL, UpChirp, Aardvark, De-Bungler, Tricky, Lucy-Rochelle, Titanpout, Evildildo, Whitemeat, Shrimp, JamesXYZ, (yeah-“that”-guy), “Dr.” Mutt, plus 19 of “The Fool’s” other sockpuppets/alterlogins.

You know … The “Undercover”elephant use to like useless polls a lot as well (when he was around) Especially after getting a spanking, he would seek the approval of the “masses” to reassure him that he wasn’t crazy, and Solipsism wasn’t really True … But “we” all know that it is True. We are just waiting for YOU to figure it out …


… In the mean time, since “33 people” are trying to tell me I am inconsistent in my beliefs perhaps there will be at least one with a nutsack large enough to come forward and explain [b]exactly and specifically where I am being inconsistent. Because -- as I must tell you -- there is nothing a Logical deists hates more then Logical Inconsistency.

Okay so my first question, which (if either) of these statements (which I believe) is FALSE?

A) Atoms obey the Laws of Physics (TRUE or FALSE)
B) YOU are made of Atoms. (TRUE or FALSE)

Question #2: I believe that …

TLOP makes (controls) YOU makes (controls) CAR

Ergo,

TLOP more conscious than YOU more conscious than CAR

Please! … show me the error of my ways? Where is the Logical Inconsistency in the above statements?

I want nothing more than to be a “smart” A-Theist like the “33” of YOU. I implore YOU, I am but a humble and lowly Deist, and not a mighty A-Theist of the “One True Faith” (or is that “True for One Faith”? …). Please explain to me what an “intelligent” person with a vastly “superior” metaphysical belief system (which although identical to a Religion in ALL ways, is never-the-less, NOT a Religion) should believe in this regard?

Come on … there are “33” of you. Surely at least one can give some straight forward answers to a couple of simple Questions???

If I am inconsistent on these beliefs … show me the “inconsistency”??

:confused:

Want to know my prophecy of what happens next?


You might do well to stop asking so many questions and start answering some of the ones that been posed of you.
For instance, Latimer has a couple of threads going right now that pose several questions based on claims that you have made, but you have convieniently ignored them.

Why is that? Because Latimer doesn't fall into your trap of engaging in a name calling contest which you love so much?
Or perhaps you just have no answers to these questions, and you are fearful of making yourself look even more foolish.

Ah, I suspect a little bit of both.

Now, go off on a little tirade on me that you do so well Franko.
Call me an A-theist and a sock puppet.
That's your game, isn't it Franko. Verbally abuse anyone who doesn't agree with everything you say?

[Doctor X]

KevinG:

I am still waiting for a response to:

The Science of Consciousness

Methinks neither of us should hold our breaths. . . .

--J.D.

[Upchurch]

I'm just curious how long those pics will hang around before edited...

Upchurch

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I'm just curious how long those pics will hang around before edited...

Upchurch
Would people please refrain from having cybersex in my threads! I am attempting to have a logical discusson with Franko.....hmmm, on second thoughts is it too late to get in on some some of the cyber? I am a 19yo 6 foot tall blond blue eyed professional athelite who drives a Ferrari...Honest.

Originally posted by The Fool

Would people please refrain from having cybersex in my threads! I am attempting to have a logical discusson with Franko.....hmmm, on second thoughts is it too late to get in on some some of the cyber? I am a 19yo 6 foot tall blond blue eyed professional athelite who drives a Ferrari...Honest.
amended accordingly and full apology offered for offending you.

Originally posted by Upchurch
I'm just curious how long those pics will hang around before edited...

Upchurch that long and apology offered for offence casued.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
that long and apology offered for offence casued.
No apology needed. I wasn't offended. I was just wondering how long it would be there before the Hand of Mod reached down and plucked it from our midst. I wasn't suggesting that you should do it. Although I guess that's moot, now.

Upchurch

[Franko]

So a belief in Determinism is inconsistent with the way reality works, but not ONE of 44 "smart" A-Theist can explain exactly why???

Maybe they aren't so smart?

Come on!!!

44 Nitwits who believe that they have magic "free will" powers and they can defy the will of Almighty God (TLOP from your POV) and yet NOT ONE of you pissants can come forward and explain it???

What a worthless loser religion you got there? I think someone would have to be a complete frigging moron to join that little pessimistic wonder-cult.

magic "free will" powers ... hehehe!!!! ... hehehe ... I think I'll stick with my "inconsistencies", Fool. Thanks for making my point -- yet again ... hehehe ... ;)

[The Fool]

sigh...more franko ranting....Now he is chanting "Almighty God" oops, the Catholic fundamentalism is peeking through the thin veneer of Logical Deism....

I'm not really asking for a rant from the pulpit frank....Just an explanation how quotes like this one confirm your lack-o-belief in Free will....

"I have no free will while falling, but I do have free will or choice of what I will wear. Within the choices of clothes I have"

But of course you cointinue to ignore your own statements in the vain hope they will go away...

Your loosing it Franko, It is only a matter of time now.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
TO doctor X

the reply is in PM to you as a mark of my respect and politeness to The fool.

Having no wish to offend The fool I have done the decent thing and edited this accordingly.


Offended? me???

[Reginald]

Originally posted by Franko

44 Nitwits who believe that they have magic "free will" powers and they can defy the will of Almighty God (TLOP from your POV) and yet NOT ONE of you pissants can come forward and explain it???



I'm sorry but I thought the poll was about what posters thought was YOUR position on this issue.

I must have missed the poll that you are pointing to there.

I must say that you could clear all this up for everyone Franko if you just answered Mr Fool's question (he has asked it often enough) Maybe if you tell us your position more people would answer 1 or 2.

Edited because it was late, that and I can't spell.

[slimshady2357]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
TO doctor X

the reply is in PM to you as a mark of my respect and politeness to The fool.

Having no wish to offend The fool I have done the decent thing and edited this accordingly.



I'm offended! I never got to see these pictures :p

I demand a full apology and copies of the pictures immediately! :D

Adam

[evildave]

Originally posted by Franko
So a belief in Determinism is inconsistent with the way reality works, but not ONE of 44 "smart" A-Theist can explain exactly why???

Maybe they aren't so smart?

Come on!!!

44 Nitwits who believe that they have magic "free will" powers and they can defy the will of Almighty God (TLOP from your POV) and yet NOT ONE of you pissants can come forward and explain it???

What a worthless loser religion you got there? I think someone would have to be a complete frigging moron to join that little pessimistic wonder-cult.

magic "free will" powers ... hehehe!!!! ... hehehe ... I think I'll stick with my "inconsistencies", Fool. Thanks for making my point -- yet again ... hehehe ... ;)

You know, I'm certain 1044 people would not bother to explain it, the way you ask for it. Call me one in 1044, I'll try to explain it to you again.

We make our own simulated models of reality in our own heads based on inputs from reality.

We decide to change that reality in our own heads, and act out to change the external reality through our interface to reality; our bodies.

In a simulation, we can fall up or suck light into a bottle, if we want to. In the simulated reality in each of our heads, we have free will.

Because that free will is interfaced with the "real world", we have free will interacting with the real world.

Very simple.

[MRC_Hans]

Wow! Here I am on my new PC, where I for some reason dont auto log-in (so my ignore list is not in effect), and I get to read a Franko post and heureka! He makes a consession:... I think I'll stick with my "inconsistencies", Good, Frank, you're on your way! -- or maybe not.

Basically the status on Frank is:

1) He claims to be smarter than Einstein and the rest of the scientific establishment: He knows that Einstein was right in his stance on quantum physics, something that Einstein himself never managed to establish. And of course Heisenberg, Bohr et al were idiots.

2) He is smarter than everybody else here, since when something has been explained to him a dozen times and he still cannot understand it, its because there is no explanation.

3) He knows the answers to how the Universe was created, how Fate works, and all those other Great Questions. The reason we cannot understand his explanations is that we are dumb.

Now, I can only come to three possible conclusions to this:

A) At only 19, Frank is the greatest genius ever to be born to mankind, and we should be honored to have the opportunity to be scolded by him (why he should waste his vast intellect on us is another question).

B) Frank has had a Divine Insight: God(dess) has revealed the depest secrets to him (again begs the question why he wastes his energy on 44 puny atheists and suckpuppets on some silly web board).

C) Frank is totally deluded (this begs the question why we wast so much time on him).

Oh, I know, Frank: I said I wouldnt bother you anymore. Well, I lied, --- sue me.

Hans

[wraith]

Originally posted by Reginald
I must say that you could clear all this up for everyone Franko if you just answered Mr Fool's question (he has asked it often enough) Maybe if you tell us your position more people would answer 1 or 2.

I think that the Fool gets his jollies by voting 47 times

:cool:

[CWL]

Originally posted by wraith
I think that the Fool gets his jollies by voting 47 times

:cool:

And this from the Forum's most famous sock puppet. Oh, the irony.

BTW. I just thought of another little anomaly within the Sacred Church of Logical Deism - more general and more profound as it would seem.

If consciousness makes matter as His Holiness contends, why should one assume that the will of any consciousness is restricted in any way whatsoever?

"Consciousness makes matter" yet, consciousness is not free to do so?

Huh?

Originally posted by The Fool

Offended? me???

woops, only half your post materialised as in the dont have sex in my posts part, now having all of it now materialise sorry for jumping the gun.
Do you forgive me or should I expect to be spanked ;)woops sorry its the leather it makes me all uncessarily, off to change into a nuns outfit :D

[Franko]

A-Theist Fool whined:
sigh...more franko ranting....Now he is chanting "Almighty God" oops, the Catholic fundamentalism is peeking through the thin veneer of Logical Deism....

There is nothing wrong with Catholics Fool.

I'm not really asking for a rant from the pulpit frank....Just an explanation how quotes like this one confirm your lack-o-belief in Free will....

Your “magic mind powers” have failed you once again Fool. I don’t believe in “free willy” no matter how much you desperately want me too.

"I have no free will while falling, but I do have free will or choice of what I will wear. Within the choices of clothes I have"

TLOP decided what clothes you would have (bra’s and panties mostly -- I’m guessing). If you doubt this, then please tell us how often you wear a Toga, or a Burka?

But of course you cointinue to ignore your own statements in the vain hope they will go away...

Atoms obey the Laws of Physics.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.

TLOP controls (makes) YOU controls (makes) CAR

Still think that TOAST is superior To you Fool? … You’re probably right …

Your loosing it Franko, It is only a matter of time now.

Keep dreaming UCE (Fool). You can’t even post under your own identity. What are you trying to hide from?

[Franko]

Reginald,

Perhaps YOU could point out specifically where my inconsistency lies? I don’t see it …

Okay so my first question, which (if either) of these statements (which I believe) is FALSE?

A) Atoms obey the Laws of Physics (TRUE or FALSE)
B) YOU are made of Atoms. (TRUE or FALSE)

Question #2: I believe that …

TLOP makes (controls) YOU makes (controls) CAR

Ergo,

TLOP more conscious than YOU more conscious than CAR

Please! … show me the error of my ways? Where is the Logical Inconsistency in the above statements?

I want nothing more than to be a “smart” A-Theist like the “47” of YOU. I implore YOU, I am but a humble and lowly Deist, and not a mighty A-Theist of the “One True Faith” (or is that “True for One Faith”? …). Please explain to me what an “intelligent” person with a vastly “superior” metaphysical belief system (which although identical to a Religion in ALL ways, [by ANY meaningful definition of that term] is never-the-less, NOT a Religion) should believe in this regard?

[Checkmite]

I've started numerous threads regarding the fascinating belief system called "Logical Deism", for the expressed purpose of luring Franko away from the flame battles, and into legitimate discussion, which I presumed was why he visited this forum. He resisted my efforts - deduce what you will from this.

In the first one - I believe it was titled "Logical Deism: A Commentary" - I asked Franko to define his beliefs. He used to say over and over again, when someone tried discussing his beliefs, "I haven't said anything about my beliefs, what are you a mind reader now?" or something similar. He claimed to be discussing the "beliefs of atheists", but really all he did in those discussions was call people names.

So I asked Franko to define his beliefs, and what made them so "logical". He refused to answer (possibly because he couldn't justify flaming someone for simply asking his beliefs), and several other people (including the lovely Miss Soubrette) helped me out by outlining his beliefs as they saw them. He made a brief appearance to implicitly concur with their opinions. I then began highlighting the problems and inconsistencies I found with the belief system, and invited Franko to clarify them for me.

Almost immediately the abuse began. It seemed as though by simply questioning his beliefs, that automatically meant I was on the side of the "evil atheists" who wanted "nothing more" than to destroy the universe. I explained that I really was interested in his beliefs, and that I wanted him to resolve the perceived problems I had with them - it did not matter. Like fundamentalist Christians and the bible, "either it's all true, or none of it is true". Accept it all blindly, or be forever locked out. Because I chose to question, I am now "evil".

Some time later, I tried again. I saw Franko say that the reason he doesn't answer so many questions is because they aren't direct, and that anyone could ask him a direct question.

So, I started a thread called "Direct Questions for Franko". It took him a while to get there, because The Fool had a thread with some questions in it that became a flame war almost from the outset, and Franko seemed to prefer that thread. Deduce what you will from that, too.

So I started my thread with a multi-paragraph long-winded trademark JKorosi(TM) post, asking a plethora of what I thought were very direct and specific questions. Several other people responded before Franko actually got there, but when he did, he asked me the question that was "in vogue" for him at that time; that is, something along the lines of:

"Is this statement true?

Atoms obey the laws of physics
You are made of atoms
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS"

This syllogism was the subject of much debate and had entire threads dedicated to it running at that time, so I simply said "for the sake of argument, let's assume it is true." Franko then asked, "Now, do you believe in free will?" I don't know what that statement had to do with any of the questions I had asked, but I again agreed to concede, if only for the sake of argument, that there was no free will. I then reminded Franko that I had already conceded two crucial points, and that he by now ought to answer the questions that I had asked him first.

"What questions?" he asked.

The ones at the top of the thread, of course - however, some other person on the thread narrowed my extensive list down to 4 or 5. I was not happy with this, but I went along anyway. Franko proceeded to not-answer my questions, one at a time. He even quoted the specific questions, while "answering" them with something esoteric and vague - it was almost humorous. It all boiled down to him saying (again) that "anybody who knows 2 + 2 = 4 would understand and subscribe to Logical Deism". The entire alleged chain of reasoning I thought we had been building when I conceded the two points mentioned above was completely abandoned. Subordination to the laws of physics + no free will does not necessarily = goddess, gravitons, Abyss, MPB, etc.

I asked Franko, "Since it's easy as 2 + 2 = 4, why not define the terms of your beliefs, so we can "add them up" and come up with the same conclusions?" He avoided this challenge by saying "it would be like explaining calculus to a third grader", or something like that. That indicates, of course, that it's not as simple as 2 + 2 = 4, since any third grader can add, subtract, multiply, divide, and work fractions and decimals, but can not reasonably be expected to understand calculus.

The logical consequences of his analogies are lost on Franko. Surely someone can't go around calling third graders stupid, idiots, and retards simply because they don't know calculus. Yet Franko continues to similarly degrade us uneducated types, because us "2 + 2 = 4" simpletons can't yet grasp the "calculus" of Logical Deism. Of course, calculus isn't instinctive, it's taught - but far be it for the educated like Franko to take the time to educate. It's like a lifeguard laughing at a drowning child that can't swim.

Franko also seems to be dissatisfied when everyone isn't at each other's throat. Franko refused to continue with the discussion in that Direct Questions thread because no one was disagreeing with him - they just wanted to ask him questions. "I won't sit here and talk to myself!!!" Franko fumed, even though he wouldn't be talking to himself, he would be talking to us. Deduce what you will from his actions here, also.

(edited for speeling erorrs.)

[Franko]

EvilDildo-boy Fantasized ...

Because that free will is interfaced with the "real world", we have free will interacting with the real world.

Very simple.

Why not just say that "Sh*t Happens" A-Theist and leave it at that?

Instead what you are claiming is that YOU have "magic" mind powers" because YOU claim that you do? Yeah ... right! How about some empirical evidence non-skeptical, fat & intellectually lazy, religious moron?

After all extraordinary claims that one possesses "magic" powers" required extraordinary evidence. So far, the only "extraordinary evidence" I've seen is guys like You and the Fool making complete idiots of yourself on a SKEPTICS board ...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by CWL


If consciousness makes matter as His Holiness contends, why should one assume that the will of any consciousness is restricted in any way whatsoever?

"Consciousness makes matter" yet, consciousness is not free to do so?

Huh?

Indeed....although less conscious than TLOP, humans are still conscious - shouldn't they be able to make matter? I want a centerfold standing in my living room - now!

And TOASTERS are less conscious than humans....but STILL conscious. Can they make matter too? Can cars, as well? Or is there a certain level of consciousness at which the "makes matter" power no longer exists?

[Franko]

MRC_Hand-job (Pathetic A-Theist Loser)

So what EXACTLY and SPECIFICALLY is YOUR evidence for magic “free will” powers which allow you to defy the Laws of Physics?

How is me NOT believing YOUR extraordinary claim for which you have provided no evidence make you “smarter” than me?

It just makes you a credulous moron, and blindly devoted, brainwashed, religious fanatic.

Whenever you want to prove your magic powers tweedy-bird, you just let me know …

Originally posted by Franko
just makes you a credulous moron, and blindly devoted, brainwashed, religious fanatic.

Ok confused here but one minute your yelling everyone is an athiest and now your yelling religious fanatics.

Exactly where do your belifes lie and what are your beliefs please.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
How is me NOT believing YOUR extraordinary claim for which you have provided no evidence make you “smarter” than me?
No, Franko, this does not make him smarter than you. It is your inability to read with comprehension, remember what was posted, formulate original arguments, post with civility, tell the truth, understand logic, and know when you are beaten that makes MRC_Hans (and practically every other poster here except possibly De_Bunk) smarter than you.

Sorry to have to break it to you.:(

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
It all boiled down to him saying (again) that "anybody who knows 2 + 2 = 4 would understand and subscribe to Logical Deism". The entire alleged chain of reasoning I thought we had been building when I conceded the two points mentioned above was completely abandoned. Subordination to the laws of physics + no free will does not necessarily = goddess, gravitons, Abyss, MPB, etc.

Perhaps Franko could clear all of this up by simply presenting the logic behind Logical Deism. Maybe start a new thread or attach a document giving the whole explination, start to finish? I think that would clear up a lot of confusion.

Upchurch

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I think that would clear up a lot of confusion.
Somehow, I doubt it.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Indeed....although less conscious than TLOP, humans are still conscious - shouldn't they be able to make matter? I want a centerfold standing in my living room - now!

And TOASTERS are less conscious than humans....but STILL conscious. Can they make matter too? Can cars, as well? Or is there a certain level of consciousness at which the "makes matter" power no longer exists?
There you go. The question is which consciousness or consciousnesses make(s) matter? It clearly cannot be yours or mine as those darn centerfolds keep refusing to materialize.

But never fear. The Church of Logical Deism is reassuring us as to its firm stance on the existence of free will even as we speak.

In response of the assertion "If no one can freely act, then no one is responsible for their actions" made here (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=268388#post268388) by kamerynn, Franko comforts us with the following:

Originally posted by Franko
Jump off a tall building and tell yourself that.

… or start running red lights. See if you are held responsible
From this we may deduce that, according to the Church of Logical Deism, we can freely act. This is logical as the Church of Logical Deism (as is frequently underlined by its propagator) holds that we are responsible for our actions and must suffer the consequences of the choices we make.

Yet... all is preordained? Yet... we have no "free will"?

Illogical? Nooooooo....

[CWL]

More free will logic, this time from Franko's Sock Puppet, posted in the Gods, tlops, drivers, cars Thread (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=268184#post268184).

In response to the following post from the Fool...

Originally posted by The Fool
In this very thread your messiah said

"You do get one “free will” choice Fool. Unfortunately you used yours up when you “decided” to become a brainwashed A-Theist."

So now its not just confusion between never and sometimes, "once only" has been added as an official option to the logical deist dogma of Free will...That seems to make THREE positions now...so what is it sockpuppet? never? sometimes? once? how much Free will is there? What did you do with YOUR "one free will choice"?

Has Franko PM'd you your next origional thought yet or might you have a stab at this one yourself

... the Holy Sock Puppet did pontificate:

Originally posted by wraith

Ill have a stab at this one myself lol

Are you blind?

There is a reason why there are these things (" ") around the word free-will.

You have the ability to perceive how the "system" works. You can "choose" to follow it, or piss find your own system ;)

Now, thanks to this brilliant elucidation, all should be crystal clear for everyone as to the Church of Logical Deism's stance on "free will".

No?

[Reginald]

Franko.......You need ME to read all the posts and then point out exactly what it is that YOU seem unclear on????


There have been enough posts, asking the same question of you that even my 5 year old would KNOW!!!!!!

Do you have free will...Never, sometimes, always??


Its not my opinion that matters (mind you, apart from your inconsistancy neither does yours, that much).

However unlike my five year old, you are resorting to these little name change insult things in the most infantile way. It's not even mildly whimsical.

Can you answer a simple question?

I dont wish to appear harsh but the phrase is, I believe "Either Sh*t, or get off the pot!". I think that you have the capability to put the record straight, so why not just do it!!

[MRC_Hans]

MRC_Hand-job (Pathetic A-Theist Loser)

So what EXACTLY and SPECIFICALLY is YOUR evidence for magic “free will” powers which allow you to defy the Laws of Physics?

How is me NOT believing YOUR extraordinary claim for which you have provided no evidence make you “smarter” than me?

It just makes you a credulous moron, and blindly devoted, brainwashed, religious fanatic.

Whenever you want to prove your magic powers tweedy-bird, you just let me know … Dear Frank,

I never claimed to defy the laws of physics (and you know that). I claimed (and provided evidence for) that free will can exist within tlop.

You not believing in my claim does not make me smarter than you (or vice versa), and I havent said that. YOUR claims that you are smarter than everybody else born within the last century or so TOGETHER with your inability to show anything but flawed sylogisms and personal insults for it makes you appear a total idiot (which is a shame, because I dont think you are).

I am not an atheist but since you reserve the rights to call me that because you think I act like one, I will reserve the right to call you an idiot because I think you act like one.

The difference may be that I dont consider "atheist" an insult.


Hans

[Soubrette]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower


Demand all you like slimshady2357, but until you clean my boots I refuse to do anything psst open to bribes. next yo'll be moaning coz a certain likeable man gets good quality dirty mail from me ;)

Oh eck! sorry fool i'm attemtping nookie again arent I

:D

:mad::mad::mad:

Sou

[slimshady2357]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower


Demand all you like slimshady2357, but until you clean my boots I refuse to do anything psst open to bribes. next yo'll be moaning coz a certain likeable man gets good quality dirty mail from me ;)

Oh eck! sorry fool i'm attemtping nookie again arent I

:D

Ok, I've amended my demands. Now I don't need an apology and I'll accept links to the pictures if not the actual pictures.

Please comply at your earliest convenience ;)

Adam

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Soubrette


:mad::mad::mad:

Sou
Jealousy does not become you, Sou.

[Franko]

Ok confused here but one minute your yelling everyone is an athiest and now your yelling religious fanatics.

Atheists (A-Theists or A Theists) are the biggest bunch of Religious fanatics on the planet. Your average A-Theist is FAR more brainwashed than you average Christian.

It is one big bunch of self-deluded morons, who like all False Religions believe they have a monopoly on the Truth, and ALL other Religions are inferior and should be eliminated.

[slimshady2357]

Originally posted by Tricky

Jealousy does not become you, Sou.

Mmmm everything becomes her ;)

[Franko]

Franko.......You need ME to read all the posts and then point out exactly what it is that YOU seem unclear on????

Assuming you are ONE of the 48 nitwits who thinks I am “inconsistent” in my beliefs, I would figure if you have the opinion that I am “inconsistent” you would have an opinion about SPECIFICALLY what I am “inconsistent” about.

… but I am sure this logic-business must all be very new and strange for you as an A-Theist unaccustomed to actually having to PROVE the nonsense you believe.

There have been enough posts, asking the same question of you that even my 5 year old would KNOW!!!!!!

Do you have free will...Never, sometimes, always??

You don’t have “free will”.

Atoms obey the laws of Physics.
You are made of atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.

Ask your 5-year old if they can understand that?

Now … what is your evidence for the extraordinary claim that you have magic “free will” powers and can defy the Laws of Physics? How does YOU and FOOL, and the other A-Theist Fanatics claiming that you have magic powers constitute and inconsistent belief on my part? That’s YOUR inconsistency – not mine.

Its not my opinion that matters

Which explain why you are so concerned about My as to make all these posts?

You should give honesty a try A-Theist.

Can you answer a simple question?

I dont wish to appear harsh but the phrase is, I believe "Either Sh*t, or get off the pot!". I think that you have the capability to put the record straight, so why not just do it!!

You are asking me to do your thinking for you? Ask your 5-year old.

You don’t have magic “free will” powers just because the A-Theist Fool convinced you that You do. :(

If you want me to believe your extraordinary claims that You possess magic powers then you will have to provide some evidence. Otherwise you are just a cynical religious fanatic pretending to be a Skeptic. … and I think fewer and fewer people here are buying it.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
Ok confused here but one minute you're yelling everyone is an athiest and now you're yelling religious fanatics.
According to the Dictionary of Franko (aka The Lexicon), atheism is a religion.

Don't ask. Really.

[Franko]

Perhaps Franko could clear all of this up by simply presenting the logic behind Logical Deism. Maybe start a new thread or attach a document giving the whole explination, start to finish? I think that would clear up a lot of confusion.

No ... I think you and Trixy should stick to A-Theism, UpChimp.

The Logical Deists don't want anything to do with you ...

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Franko
No ... I think you and Trixy should stick to A-Theism, UpChimp.

The Logical Deists don't want anything to do with you ...
Well, heck. Maybe your logic is compelling when presented in its entirity. I'm an open-minded guy. Maybe I learn something new?

Give it a try.

Upfunk

[CWL]

I'll second that.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
No ... I think you and Trixy should stick to A-Theism, UpChimp.

But Frankie, my child, I've already admitted that according to The Lexicon I am an agnostic because I steadfastly refuse to deny the possibility of a god. That's where the dividing line is, n'est ce pas?

Originally posted by Franko
The Logical Deists don't want anything to do with you ...
There's more than one??? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tricky
There's more than one??? :eek: :eek: :eek:
Remember "wraith"? The one who's an entirely different person from Franko? He's an LD.

Upfunk-da-junk

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Upchurch

Remember "wraith"? The one who's an entirely different person from Franko? He's an LD.

Upfunk-da-junk
Ah! I forgot about him. Still, Franko's statement should have been:
"Both of the Logical Deists don't want anything to do with you ... "

[CWL]

Originally posted by Upchurch

Remember "wraith"? The one who's an entirely different person from Franko? He's an LD.

Upfunk-da-junk

Yes, yes... entirely different. Nothing to do with Franko.

BTW, I wonder if Franko does that act in the real world as well. Can you imagine?

Franko [false beard off]: Greetings everyone! I am Franko. I am a Logical Deist.

Franko [false beard on]: Greetings everyone! I am Wraith. I am a Logical Deist too.

[Franko]

Well, heck. Maybe your logic is compelling when presented in its entirity. I'm an open-minded guy. Maybe I learn something new?

Give it a try.

Okay … what the heck!

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU obey TLOP.

TLOP controls YOU controls CAR.

In the same way that you are more conscious and aware then your CAR is, TLOP is more conscious and aware then YOU are. In other words in the same way that You are a “god” to an inanimate object (You can control a rock more easily then a rock controls you) TLOP is a God to you. TLOP controls you in an analogous manner to the way you control an inanimate object.

[MRC_Hans]

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU obey TLOP.

TLOP controls YOU controls CAR.

Frank's logic in its entirety, period. And we've been looking for the next layer for weeks, no wonder we failed.

Its all so simple! How could anybody have overlooked it?

Hans :rolleyes:

[Franko]

Frank's logic in its entirety, period. And we've been looking for the next layer for weeks, no wonder we failed.

Its all so simple! How could anybody have overlooked it?

Any time you want to present your equally "simple" and "better" argument for the existence of "magic free will mind-powers" you just let us all know.

I have been waiting for ONE of the dozens of A-Theists here to make that Post for over a year now ...

... I'm still waiting ... :o

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Frank's logic in its entirety, period. And we've been looking for the next layer for weeks, no wonder we failed.

Its all so simple! How could anybody have overlooked it?

Hans :rolleyes:

Yes, so true. It's easy to assume when first encountering Franko that he has something of value to say. He posts very frequently, and engages in most threads on this board.

Yet, when you start to read his posts, you realize how repetitive, and ultimately insipid his content is.
The guy is a one trick pony who screams and yells the same thing over and over again insisting that he is correct without ever backing up anything he says.

And then there's that old trick where, when encountered with questions he can't answer, he tries to turn it around and yells "So prove me wrong...PROVE ME WRONG."

And if that doesn't work, he just resorts to name calling and verbal abuse.

It's quite sad.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Franko


Okay … what the heck!

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU obey TLOP.

TLOP controls YOU controls CAR.

In the same way that you are more conscious and aware then your CAR is, TLOP is more conscious and aware then YOU are. In other words in the same way that You are a “god” to an inanimate object (You can control a rock more easily then a rock controls you) TLOP is a God to you. TLOP controls you in an analogous manner to the way you control an inanimate object.
So, what? Is that it? Where does the "Logical Goddess" come from? Or the determinism? There has to be more?

Upchurch

edited to add:

And the consiousness creating matter is also missing.

[Reginald]

There's no "Happy" in your world is there Franko?

It's all bitter and twisted.

Do you get joy from anything?

Anything other than abusing people?

What does your "God" think of that?

(4 questions in one post! I'm learning something from you Franko)

[Franko]

The guy is a one trick pony who screams and yells the same thing over and over again insisting that he is correct without ever backing up anything he says.

Speaking of backing up what you say …

1) What is your evidence that you have “free will”?
2) Please explain exactly what you mean when you Claim that there is no evidence for God? Determinism is evidence for God, so the only way a person could claim there is no evidence for God is by deceiving themselves about the mountain of evidence for Determinism.

How do you answer these points? (I bet the A-Theist won’t bother)

And then there's that old trick where, when encountered with questions he can't answer, he tries to turn it around and yells "So prove me wrong...PROVE ME WRONG."

You don’t have “free will” – PROVE ME WRONG.

You have made the extraordinary claim … Now YOU provide the extraordinary evidence.

And if that doesn't work, he just resorts to name calling and verbal abuse.

It's quite sad.

Another brainwashed idiot Religious fanatic who is upset that I don’t take his word for it that the sky is falling, there is no "god", and that he possesses extraordinary "magic powers". :rolleyes:

Boo-hoo-hoo :(

[Upchurch]

Shut up, you guys. Franko obviously wasn't done yet. Let the man finish.

[MRC_Hans]

Any time you want to present your equally "simple" and "better" argument for the existence of "magic free will mind-powers" you just let us all know. You are speaking nonsense.

You are saying my argument should be simple, not I.
You are saying free will is magic, not I.

But my arguments are better than yours, because yours are useless. Your syllogism is useless, your consciousness ranking is nonsense.

This is why I did think that once we got past those, we would come to the real logic. But no, there's no beef. All you have besides that is insults.

Oh, I forgot the solipsism thingy .... sometimes when cornered, you pull that: "Prove I'm not a figment of your imagination"

Hans

[Franko]

There's no "Happy" in your world is there Franko?

Let me guess, you are using you’re a-Theist “magic mind powers” to determine this?

I laugh my ass off at you A-Theists every time I come into this forum … :)

It's all bitter and twisted.

A-Theism?? … yeah, I’d agree. You believe that UNKNOWN things are FALSE? That is f*cked up!

Do you get joy from anything?

Who me? I get joy from EVERYTHING I do.

Anything other than abusing people?

I’m a garbage man. I’ve always been a garbage man. I like my work, I was innately good at it. It is like I was made for it from the instant I sprang from the void.

What does your "God" think of that?

My Goddess is going to send you and all of your pessimistic little pals off to the Abyss for the remainder of this Eternity until you have been completely and irrevocably annihilated. To be honest, I find even that fact a bit amusing from time to time …

[Upchurch]

Seriously, Franko. That can't be the entirety of it. What's the rest?

[CWL]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Shut up, you guys. Franko obviously wasn't done yet. Let the man finish.

Yea, come on you guys. Let the man finish.

OK, Franko

We've gotten this far:

----

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU obey TLOP.

TLOP controls YOU controls CAR.

----

As I understand you Franko, you say that the above proves determinism? And that determinism in its turn is proof of God?

OK. Let's assume you're right. What comes next?

How do you arrive at the Logical Goddess and her creation of the Universe?

How do you arrive at the Omniverse and its various "Subverses"?

How do you arrive at the Progenitor Solipsist and his creation of the Logical Goddess?

How do you arrive at your cosmology?

Shush you guys. Let Franko speak now.

[RandFan]

Uh-oh, here goes... I'm convinced that Franko believes that we have no free will.

Yes, he has made contradictory statements but I believe that is simply because he is human and capable of being inconsistent at times...or, that he has no beliefs because he has no free will and it does not mater anyway.

In any event I voted that he bleives that we have no free will.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by CWL
Shush you guys. Let Franko speak now.
Don't forget the existance of Heaven and Hell.

Up-da-funk

[CWL]

That would be "the various 'Subverses' of the Omniverse".

CoolWhitefunkingLunatic

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by CWL
That would be "the various 'Subverses' of the Omniverse". Nevertheless, Logical Deism must be able to logically deduce the existance of the subverses as well as the omniverse from nothing but what Franko gives us to work with.

Up-da-funkadelic
edited to bring on da funk

[gentlehorse]

RandFan:
Uh-oh, here goes... I'm convinced that Franko believes that we have no free will.

Yes, he has made contradictory statements but I believe that is simply because he is human and capable of being inconsistent at times...or, that he has no beliefs because he has no free will and it does not mater anyway.

In any event I voted that he bleives that we have no free will.

I hear ya. Franko's statements seem contradictory. He believes we have no free will. It seems that he believes that if we are aware enough to come to grips with this fact, there come specific points in time during which we can be more than passive observers of our fate. It is during these points in time that we are able to choose our fate, as it were. Our microsecond of opportunity-- As this seems to imply that we have some free will, I'm almost sure that I'm interpreting him incorrectly. I keep reading between the flames, waiting for the penny to drop.

FTR: There are some on this board who've stated that Franko is here to do nothing more than troll and run his post count up. Having read his posts for the past year or so, I feel that this is an inaccurate characterization. He has initiated and engaged in many excellent discussions. That the almost constant flame war in which he engages (which is a relatively recent development, btw) tends to detract from this is, in my opinion, unfortunate. It gives those who disagree with him, and are so inclined, something to point at as they say, "See? He's not really interested in meaningful discussion." If I were new to the forum, I'd probably be inclined to agree with them. Unfortunate indeed--

[CWL]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Nevertheless, Logical Deism must be able to logically deduce the existance of the subverses as well as the omniverse from nothing but what Franko gives us to work with.

Up-da-funkadelic
edited to bring on da funk

UpFunkalistico,

We are in complete and groovalistic agreement.

I can't wait to learn how Franko constructs a whole cosmology out of one single syllogism.

Cosmic-Wicked-Lord-of-da-Funk

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by CWL
We are in complete and groovalistic agreement.

I can't wait to learn how Franko constructs a whole cosmology out of one single syllogism.


Callin'-Wild-Ladies-of-da-Funkminster

Not so, my brother in da funk. I do not believe that the syllogism, as presented is sufficent for contructing the cosmology Mr. Funko has presented, although I will grant that it may be necessary. There must surely be more elements required.

Up-in-da-funk

[Tricky]

Originally posted by gentlehorse
FTR: There are some on this board who've stated that Franko is here to do nothing more than troll and run his post count up. Having read his posts for the past year or so, I feel that this is an inaccurate characterization. He has initiated and engaged in many excellent discussions. That the almost constant flame war in which he engages (which is a relatively recent development, btw) tends to detract from this is, in my opinion, unfortunate. It gives those who disagree with him, and are so inclined, something to point at as they say, "See? He's not really interested in meaningful discussion." If I were new to the forum, I'd probably be inclined to agree with them. Unfortunate indeed--
I agree with you, gentlehorse, and yes, it is very unfortunate. Some of us oldies remember a time when Franko didn't flame at all. I have pleaded with him to return to that persona, but I fear it is gone forever. Even today, certain people have managed to hold civil discussions, provided that they never say or imply that he is wrong about anything. I know that you have hope for him still, but lets face it. Only in the movies does a Darth Vader ever go back to being an Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Soubrette


:mad::mad::mad:

Sou
Dear soubrette,

Soubrettes once twice, threes times an angry mad lady,
whose property stamps on the butt of Mr slimshady
For how was I to know
That he was her beau
I may only be a meagre sunflower
But I am older than her
So you best not growl at me
Coz I'm sending you to to bed with no tea.
Plus a sound whipping I'll also give you
Get slim out from under the bed too.


:D :D :D
radiaiting_oldwomaninashoe_sunflower.

[Soubrette]

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower

Dear soubrette,

Soubrettes once twice, threes times an angry mad lady,
whose property stamps on the butt of Mr slimshady
For how was I to know
That he was her beau
I may only be a meagre sunflower
But I am older than her
So you best not growl at me
Coz I'm sending you to to bed with no tea.
Plus a sound whipping I'll also give you
Get slim out from under the bed too.


:D :D :D
radiaiting_oldwomaninashoe_sunflower.

He's under the bed? :p

And also the date shown in my profile is wrong :( There's a software glitch somewhere so a whole bunch of us share that birthday - that said it's not that far off my real birthday so you may well be older than me :p

And please do call me Sou - I prefer it and it soooo much quicker to type :)

Sou

[CWL]

Originally posted by Upchurch

Callin'-Wild-Ladies-of-da-Funkminster
Not so, my brother in da funk. I do not believe that the syllogism, as presented is sufficent for contructing the cosmology Mr. Funko has presented, although I will grant that it may be necessary. There must surely be more elements required.

Up-in-da-funk

UpFunkstication,

You iz 100 % correct my P-funking brotha. There's gotta be more to his groovement.

However, we should for the time being be less concerned with whether or not Funko should be able to derive his cosmology from one single syllogism, but rather how he actually does it.

But perhaps you're right. Perhaps there is more. Anyhow, I can't wait to be enlightened.

Franko, please do go on. What happens after the syllogism?

Chillin'-Wanilla-Loquacious-Funkzilla

[Upchurch]

(excuse me while I drop my funk for just a moment)
Originally posted by Franko
Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU obey TLOP.

TLOP controls YOU controls CAR.

In the same way that you are more conscious and aware then your CAR is, TLOP is more conscious and aware then YOU are. In other words in the same way that You are a “god” to an inanimate object (You can control a rock more easily then a rock controls you) TLOP is a God to you. TLOP controls you in an analogous manner to the way you control an inanimate object.
Well, I guess this is all we're getting today, as it seems that Franko has either left or is lurking for a while.

Now, the above is obviously incomplete for explaining the madrid of claims Franko said Logical Deism would prove. The question is, dare we speculate based on the incomplete information given or do we wait until it is all here before discussing?

So far, I think the incomplete areas include:
1. What does Franko consider to be TLOP? (including validation for "its" consiousness)
2. Is the TLOP --> You --> Car (or non-consious item) hierarchy valid and if so, how? (This may be answered in #1.)
3. How does consiousness creates matter? (Again, this may be answered in #1)

So, while I listed three items, it all may come down to Franko's description of the Laws of Phyiscs. Or, to be more precise, Franko's description of the Nature Of The Universe (NATU). It will be here, I think, that Franko's must be the most convincing. Based on Franko's previous assertions, Franko's NATU is, on the surface, vastly different from what has been observed and theorized in science. Whatever his discription, it must account for observed phenomena as well as provide an explination for all the phenomena he has described (creation of matter from consiousness alone, existance of Omniverse and the Logical Goddess, etc.)

I eagerly wait the conclusion.

Upchurch

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Tricky

Even today, certain people have managed to hold civil discussions, provided that they never say or imply that he is wrong about anything. I know that you have hope for him still, but lets face it. Only in the movies does a Darth Vader ever go back to being an Anakin Skywalker.

Tricky :mad:

You underestimate Franko and anyone who wants to exchange ideas with him. It is not fair and nice to hear you say that.

He is capable to discuss topics (or answer questions most of the time ) in a civil way. He has done that in my case (thank you Frank ;) ) even though we hold opposite points of view in almost everything.

Q-S

[evildave]

Originally posted by Franko


Why not just say that "Sh*t Happens" A-Theist and leave it at that?

Instead what you are claiming is that YOU have "magic" mind powers" because YOU claim that you do? Yeah ... right! How about some empirical evidence non-skeptical, fat & intellectually lazy, religious moron?

After all extraordinary claims that one possesses "magic" powers" required extraordinary evidence. So far, the only "extraordinary evidence" I've seen is guys like You and the Fool making complete idiots of yourself on a SKEPTICS board ...

Ah, I see it was too optimistic to imagine Franko'd respond in any other manner.

I may make an idiot of myself occasionally, but it's better than to be like Franko and make an ass of myself constantly.

[DrMatt]

Originally posted by Franko
Okay … so 33 people now. Let’s see, that’s Fool, CWL, UpChirp, Aardvark, De-Bungler, Tricky, Lucy-Rochelle, Titanpout, Evildildo, Whitemeat, Shrimp, JamesXYZ, (yeah-“that”-guy), “Dr.” Mutt, plus 19 of “The Fool’s” other sockpuppets/alterlogins.

You know … The “Undercover”elephant use to like useless polls a lot as well (when he was around) Especially after getting a spanking, he would seek the approval of the “masses” to reassure him that he wasn’t crazy, and Solipsism wasn’t really True … But “we” all know that it is True. We are just waiting for YOU to figure it out …


… In the mean time, since “33 people” are trying to tell me I am inconsistent in my beliefs perhaps there will be at least one with a nutsack large enough to come forward and explain [b]exactly and specifically where I am being inconsistent. Because -- as I must tell you -- there is nothing a Logical deists hates more then Logical Inconsistency.

Okay so my first question, which (if either) of these statements (which I believe) is FALSE?

A) Atoms obey the Laws of Physics (TRUE or FALSE)
B) YOU are made of Atoms. (TRUE or FALSE)

Question #2: I believe that …

TLOP makes (controls) YOU makes (controls) CAR

Ergo,

TLOP more conscious than YOU more conscious than CAR

Please! … show me the error of my ways? Where is the Logical Inconsistency in the above statements?

I want nothing more than to be a “smart” A-Theist like the “33” of YOU. I implore YOU, I am but a humble and lowly Deist, and not a mighty A-Theist of the “One True Faith” (or is that “True for One Faith”? …). Please explain to me what an “intelligent” person with a vastly “superior” metaphysical belief system (which although identical to a Religion in ALL ways, is never-the-less, NOT a Religion) should believe in this regard?

Come on … there are “33” of you. Surely at least one can give some straight forward answers to a couple of simple Questions???

If I am inconsistent on these beliefs … show me the “inconsistency”??

:confused:

Want to know my prophecy of what happens next?


Oh, wow! Franko is still trying to understand the meaning of "Law" as used in science, and as a result, he has developed a world-view in which I'm somebody else's sock-puppet! Too funny!

It follows logically that Franko worships The Fool as a god. After all, according to Franko, we all do The Fool's bidding... :D

I have a Franko-name now, too! Great!

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Q-Source


Tricky :mad:

You underestimate Franko and anyone who wants to exchange ideas with him. It is not fair and nice to hear you say that.

He is capable to discuss topics (or answer questions most of the time ) in a civil way. He has done that in my case (thank you Frank ;) ) even though we hold opposite points of view in almost everything.

Q-S
Sorry, Q. Didn't mean to make you angry. It is true your style has placated Franko to the point that he is actually flirting with you. However, compare your posts to those of Latimer, a poster who has doggedly and persistantly been polite to Franko. In return, Franko has heaped abuse on him and spouted his repetitious claims.

What could the difference be between you and Latimer? I leave it as an excercise for the class.

[Franko]

Trixy, (more rubbish from the A-Theist master)

Sorry, Q. Didn't mean to make you angry. It is true your style has placated Franko to the point that he is actually flirting with you. However, compare your posts to those of Latimer, a poster who has doggedly and persistantly been polite to Franko. In return, Franko has heaped abuse on him and spouted his repetitious claims.

What could the difference be between you and Latimer? I leave it as an excercise for the class.

Latimer is a brainwashed A-Theist Religious fanatic, all around goon, and likely graduate of the Trixy School of ”Shit Happens” Philosophy.

Q-Source, on the other hand, is a Skeptic.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tricky


What could the difference be between you and Latimer? I leave it as an excercise for the class.

Q-Source...are you an atheist? If not, what is your persuasion?

[Franko]

I hear ya. Franko's statements seem contradictory. He believes we have no free will. It seems that he believes that if we are aware enough to come to grips with this fact, there come specific points in time during which we can be more than passive observers of our fate. It is during these points in time that we are able to choose our fate, as it were. Our microsecond of opportunity-- As this seems to imply that we have some free will, I'm almost sure that I'm interpreting him incorrectly. I keep reading between the flames, waiting for the penny to drop.

Ohh by eliminating the non-skeptical religious fanatics off this board we would get much more accomplished. But have no fear gentlehorse … Eternity is a long time, and I have a hunch we’ll be around for it. ;)

FTR: There are some on this board who've stated that Franko is here to do nothing more than troll and run his post count up. Having read his posts for the past year or so, I feel that this is an inaccurate characterization. He has initiated and engaged in many excellent discussions. That the almost constant flame war in which he engages (which is a relatively recent development, btw) tends to detract from this is, in my opinion, unfortunate. It gives those who disagree with him, and are so inclined, something to point at as they say, "See? He's not really interested in meaningful discussion." If I were new to the forum, I'd probably be inclined to agree with them. Unfortunate indeed—

The Wraith understands why that is my Fate. I have a hunch that the Knight does too, although he may not be consciously aware of the reason yet …

But seriously gentlehorse you don’t occasionally find it amusing to see the tables turned on the A-Theists thusly? To see some bad Karma get them in the here and now? I can’t demonstrate what first class idiots these Religious Fanatics are without the assistance of the likes of De-Bungler, or Titanpout, or Fool, or CWl, or Upchimp, or Evilbuoy, or Trixy …

[Franko]

Tricky hissed:
I agree with you, gentlehorse, and yes, it is very unfortunate. Some of us oldies remember a time when Franko didn't flame at all. I have pleaded with him to return to that persona, but I fear it is gone forever. Even today, certain people have managed to hold civil discussions, provided that they never say or imply that he is wrong about anything. I know that you have hope for him still …

What a lying sack of S**t this 30+ year A-Theist has become …

Let’s not forget folks this is the SAME PERSON who ORGANIZED the posters in the original concentrated flaming effort against me (then all then went on to brag about how the older and wiser Tricky was counseling them on how to “run me off the board”) . I also happen to know that he has tried to get me BANNED from this board.

Trixy is nothing but a two-faced lying A-Theist. You shouldn’t believe a word out of his mouth. He doesn’t think there will be any ultimate consequences for his actions. So he will screw you in a heartbeat if he thinks he can gain a nickels worth of “matter” for it.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
What a lying sack of S**t this 30+ year A-Theist has become …
Franko, you have lied so often you don't even recognize the truth anymore.

Originally posted by Franko
Let’s not forget folks this is the SAME PERSON who ORGANIZED the posters in the original concentrated flaming effort against me (then all then went on to brag about how the older and wiser Tricky was counseling them on how to “run me off the board”) . I also happen to know that he has tried to get me BANNED from this board.
LOL. I can't organize my sock drawer. I have written a few satires based on you (which I hoped you would find amusing) but I have always been the most outspoken critic of any kind of censorship. I was one of the first to welcome you back after your last "dematerialization" and I have repeatedly entreated you to return to your old non-flaming self. However, if you persist in making the CHOICE to be a jerk, then you must suffer the consequences of your CHOICE, which is to be ridiculed.

And tell me how you happen to know that I have tried to get you banned? Did Randi say so? Linda? Jeff? This is another of your lies and everybody here knows it.

Originally posted by Franko
Trixy is nothing but a two-faced lying A-Theist. You shouldn’t believe a word out of his mouth. He doesn’t think there will be any ultimate consequences for his actions. So he will screw you in a heartbeat if he thinks he can gain a nickels worth of “matter” for it.
Isn't it odd that people usually ascribe their own attributes to others? A criminal trusts nobody. As for you, I do not think you are a bad person. I think you are deluded, but not evil. You want what is best for humanity, but your methods are... well... extreme.

Here's a project for you. Try being nice. Try posting for one solid month without either repeating yourself or attacking another poster. I know it will be hard because you will be attacked, (though not by me), but try to ignore it. I'll bet you would be amazed at the difference in attitude you would see.

Here's hoping to have a friendly conversation with you in the future.

[wraith]

Originally posted by CWL


And this from the Forum's most famous sock puppet. Oh, the irony.

BTW. I just thought of another little anomaly within the Sacred Church of Logical Deism - more general and more profound as it would seem.

If consciousness makes matter as His Holiness contends, why should one assume that the will of any consciousness is restricted in any way whatsoever?

"Consciousness makes matter" yet, consciousness is not free to do so?

Huh?

I didnt get any of that
;)

[wraith]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Indeed....although less conscious than TLOP, humans are still conscious - shouldn't they be able to make matter? I want a centerfold standing in my living room - now!

Try dreaming one up tonight...
;)

And TOASTERS are less conscious than humans....but STILL conscious. Can they make matter too? Can cars, as well? Or is there a certain level of consciousness at which the "makes matter" power no longer exists?

Toasters are conscious now?

Please dont pull a Twixy
;)

[CWL]

originally posted by Franko
Latimer is a brainwashed A-Theist Religious fanatic, all around goon, and likely graduate of the Trixy School of ”S**t Happens” Philosophy.

Q-Source, on the other hand, is a Skeptic.

Quick translation from Frankonese:

Male who disagrees with Franko = Brainwashed A-Theist Religious fanatic

Female who disagrees with Franko = Skeptic

originally posted by Tricky
Isn't it odd that people usually ascribe their own attributes to others? A criminal trusts nobody. As for you, I do not think you are a bad person. I think you are deluded, but not evil. You want what is best for humanity, but your methods are... well... extreme.
I believe the psycological term is projection (http://www.planetpsych.com/zPsychology_101/defense_mechanisms.htm#Projection): "the attribution of one's undesired impulses onto another. Thus, an angry spouse accuses their partner of hostility."

Another term that springs to mind is paranoia (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/p1/paranoia.asp): "in psychology, a term denoting persistent, unalterable, systematized, logically reasoned delusions, or false beliefs, usually of persecution or grandeur. In the former case the paranoiac creates a complex delusional system that purports to show that people want to hurt him; in the latter, he sees himself as an exalted person with a mission of great importance."

Originally posted by Wraith
I didnt get any of that
;)
I am not surprised that you didn't. I also find it hard to grasp how "consciousness can make matter" yet be restricted. How is "matter made by consciousness" if consciousness has no will (=no will to "make" anything)?

[CWL]

More news from the Church of Logical Deism on the topic of free will may be found here (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=269184#post269184).

When faced with the fact that the Pope has at a general audience exlpained that "By free will, he [the human person] is capable of directing himself toward his true good", Franko was kind enough to provide the following clarification:

Originally posted by Franko
roger,

This is just ONE person's interpretation of God's law. That doesn't make it the CORRECT interpretation ... and I can assure you God only cares if you are Right or not.

here is what I would say ...

1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that "the human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. He is capable of directing himself toward his true good (God's will). He finds his perfection 'in seeking and loving what is true and good' (God's will)

If all is preordained, if all is predictable, how can we be capable of "directing" ourselves in any way whatsoever?

What is the difference between "being capable of directing by free will" and just "being capable of directing"?

Spot the logic anyone?

[MRC_Hans]

Yeah, not only does Franko know more about physics than Einstein, he also knows more about Catholicism than the Pope.

Now, aint that just faaaantastic?

Hans

[wraith]

Originally posted by CWL
More free will logic, this time from Franko's Sock Puppet, posted in the Gods, tlops, drivers, cars Thread (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=268184#post268184).

In response to the following post from the Fool...



... the Holy Sock Puppet did pontificate:



Now, thanks to this brilliant elucidation, all should be crystal clear for everyone as to the Church of Logical Deism's stance on "free will".

No?

Free-willy is your god, not mine


perhaps you want to gives us your stance?
:eek:

[wraith]

Originally posted by CWL
I am not surprised that you didn't. I also find it hard to grasp how "consciousness can make matter" yet be restricted. How is "matter made by consciousness" if consciousness has no will (=no will to "make" anything)?

Obviously you have no idea on how Fate works...no will to do anything? hahaha

I take it that you lie in bed all day long?

[wraith]

Originally posted by CWL


Quick translation from Frankonese:

Male who disagrees with Franko = Brainwashed A-Theist Religious fanatic

Female who disagrees with Franko = Skeptic


jealous?
lol

[CWL]

Originally posted by wraith


Free-willy is your god, not mine
Correction. "Free-Willy" is your master's straw-man, not mine. I don't believe in any god, remember?

perhaps you want to gives us your stance?
:eek:
Happy to. I make conscious choices between perceived and available options.

Why is there a problem with this?

Obviously you have no idea on how Fate works...no will to do anything? hahaha
No I don't have any idea on how "Fate" works. Why do you and your prophet refuse to share your insights with us?

Please do enlighten us, how does "Fate" work Wraith?

I take it that you lie in bed all day long?
No, I personally believe that I make the conscious choice not to (except for those days when I do - great :)).

Do I have the choice to stay in bed or not to you?

Or am I restricted by "Fate"?

Do I have a will?

If yes, why is it not "free"?

Pray tell, what is the difference between "will" and "free will"?

Why do I get the eerie feeling I am talking to one of these guys?
http://www.whatilove.com/elephantandrabbit.jpg

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by wraith


Try dreaming one up tonight...
;)

I dream one up almost every night. Doesn't work.

Originally posted by wraith
Toasters are conscious now?

Please dont pull a Twixy
;)

Well, Franko contends that humans are more conscious than toasters and cars. This is implicitly stating that toasters and cars have consciousness (albiet "less" than humans). I don't agree with that whole "TLOP more conscious than YOU more conscious than CAR" thing...the statement "more conscious" is meaningless to me, it's like saying "Kathy is more pregnant than Lisa"...you're either conscious or you're not. Humans are, cars aren't.

And as for the whole "TLOP control you" thing - I don't agree with that either. TLOP exert as much control over you as a wall does. A wall limits your range of travel in one direction, narrowing your still-vast list of options. In the same way, the laws of physics narrow the list of possibilities - but you still have a plethora of those possibilities left.

If "TLOP > YOU > CAR", then "WALL > YOU > CAR".

While you are in a car, a seatbelt keeps you against your seat so that you don't move around too much and subject yourself to injury in case of an accident. A seatbelt is even more restrictive than a wall. Does this mean that a seatbelt is more conscious than you? You could say that you still control the seatbelt, because you can unfasten it. But imagine a scenario in which you've had a wreck, and your car is damaged in such a way that you cannot unfasten the seat belt (because you can't reach it, or it's stuck tight, or you don't have an arm anymore, etc). Now, since you can no longer control the seatbelt - is it then more conscious than you?

How do the laws of physics limit your available options any differently from the way a wall limits your available range of motion?

[wraith]

Originally posted by CWL

Correction. "Free-Willy" is your master's straw-man, not mine. I don't believe in any god, remember?

actually, TLOP is your god...you dont acknowledge the Higher Power's consciousness...insultiing dont you think?
:eek:


Happy to. I make conscious choices between perceived and available options.

Why is there a problem with this?

I say that the choices have already been made.
You seem to say that they are made willy-nilly.


No I don't have any idea on how "Fate" works. Why do you and your prophet refuse to share your insights with us?

Please do enlighten us, how does "Fate" work Wraith?

ever heard of MPB?
ever defied TLOP?


No, I personally believe that I make the conscious choice not to (except for those days when I do - great :)).

Do I have the choice to stay in bed or not to you?

Or am I restricted by "Fate"?

restricted?
Fate doesnt chain you to the ground. It's only you and the others who do not understand the concept that perceive it this way.

You are bound to Fate.

Do I have a will?

If yes, why is it not "free"?

Pray tell, what is the difference between "will" and "free will"?

How do you define "will" and "free-will"?

Why do I get the eerie feeling I am talking to one of these guys?
http://www.whatilove.com/elephantandrabbit.jpg

good work CWL...good work
at least I know what you do in your spare time
lol
:rolleyes:

[CWL]

Originally posted by wraith
actually, TLOP is your god...you dont acknowledge the Higher Power's consciousness...insultiing dont you think?
:eek:
I don't believe that it is a correct approach to personify "the Laws of Physics". That is yet another of your saviour's little straw-men.

I say that the choices have already been made.
By whom?

You seem to say that they are made willy-nilly.
No I say that I make them.

ever heard of MPB?
In which way does a "maximum perceived benefit" contradict that the choices I make are not preordained?

ever defied TLOP?
Have I ever claimed to?

restricted?
Fate doesnt chain you to the ground. It's only you and the others who do not understand the concept that perceive it this way.

You are bound to Fate.
What is the difference between "restricted", "chained" and "bound"?

How do you define "will" and "free-will"?
No, no, no. You do the defining buster.

You seem to claim that we have "will" but not "free will". You explain the difference.

I have only claimed to make conscious choices between perceived and available options. Nothing more, nothing less.

good work CWL...good work
at least I know what you do in your spare time
lol
:rolleyes:

Puppeteering? Nah. I spend with time with my wife on my spare time - and play da funk! :cool:

Besides, I am not the one creating the sock puppets, although I am obviously debating with one. *Mental note: Must stop attempting to have serious conversation with sock puppets.*

Originally posted by CWL


Quick translation from Frankonese:

Male who disagrees with Franko = Brainwashed A-Theist Religious fanatic

Female who disagrees with Franko = Skeptic


I believe the psycological term is projection (http://www.planetpsych.com/zPsychology_101/defense_mechanisms.htm#Projection): "the attribution of one's undesired impulses onto another. Thus, an angry spouse accuses their partner of hostility."

Another term that springs to mind is paranoia (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/p1/paranoia.asp): "in psychology, a term denoting persistent, unalterable, systematized, logically reasoned delusions, or false beliefs, usually of persecution or grandeur. In the former case the paranoiac creates a complex delusional system that purports to show that people want to hurt him; in the latter, he sees himself as an exalted person with a mission of great importance."


I am not surprised that you didn't. I also find it hard to grasp how "consciousness can make matter" yet be restricted. How is "matter made by consciousness" if consciousness has no will (=no will to "make" anything)?
What is a female who disagrees called then?


If yuor going to character map Franko thinkon these musings of how Franko ticks,
I would say also he could have a stong lean towards displacement, or reaction formation , then again a determinist strikes a familiar franko trait, eros syndrome hmm! need to watch more to prononuce that attribute.
I dont think rationalization but do sway more towards repition compulsion.


Are we defining consious as? pre consious or consious aware of action or the unconsious action we do not know occur?

Originally posted by wraith


Obviously you have no idea on how Fate works...no will to do anything? hahaha

Fate is a throw of the die, turn of the card, a preordained mistake or wish waiting to happen.
Fate is what you dont want to happen or do but afraid to admit it, a thought passing through or wishful thinking. Just something else to blame or celebrate with the hand that deals you it.

Sods law, Murphies law, the law of averages now theyre different as the outcome is already known and waitng for it to occur.

[Franko]

Trixy (Fanatically devoted A-Theist)

Franko, you have lied so often you don't even recognize the truth anymore.

Try and point out one of my “lies” Trixy.

Is me claiming that TOAST is inferior to HUMAN BEINGS a lie Trixy?

How about Atoms obey the laws of physics?

How about – THERE IS NO “FREE WILL”?

Where are My lies, lying A-Theist?

LOL. I can't organize my sock drawer. I have written a few satires based on you …

Yes, but Alas, still no sign of EVIDENCE for your magic powers or “free willy god” …

(boo-hoo-hoo …) :(

[Franko]

CryingWhineyLoser,

I don't believe in any god, remember?

That is what you say lying A-Theist Lawyer, but everyone here knows that it isn’t True. You claim to possess magic powers, and You use this delusion to claim that there is no evidence for God.

TLOP controls (makes) YOU controls (makes) CAR

Happy to. I make conscious choices between perceived and available options.

Why is there a problem with this?

Atoms obey the laws of Physics
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.

You don’t make any “choices” you just do what you were programmed to do. Next you are programmed to cease to exist. I suggest you run along and enjoy the little bit of existence you’ll have … whil