Science Debate?

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=40

Where are McCain's answers???

I have to say I like Obama's.

[gentlehorse]

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=40

Where are McCain's answers???

I have to say I like Obama's.

From the link:
A comparison of 15-year-olds in 30 wealthy nations found that average science scores among U.S. students ranked 17th, while average U.S. math scores ranked 24th.

Well, his answer regarding education may have left something out. I'm no expert when it comes to educational systems of the wealthy nations of the world, but I wonder of the fact that our scores are so low in comparison is a reflection of the fact that we attempt to educate everybody, regardless of whether they want to be educated. If you fill classrooms full of kids who don't want to be there, it should come as no surprise when overall test scores are low. I wonder how many other countries attempt to educate everybody, and how the cream of our crop compares to the rest of the wealthy world...

I don't really have a point. Just musing...

[Gord_in_Toronto]

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=40

Where are McCain's answers???

I have to say I like Obama's.

There is little reason to think that Mr Obama wrote the responses himself. But we can hope that they were read and explained to him and that he understood what the answers meant.

[SkeptiChick]

From the link:


Well, his answer regarding education may have left something out. I'm no expert when it comes to educational systems of the wealthy nations of the world, but I wonder of the fact that our scores are so low in comparison is a reflection of the fact that we attempt to educate everybody, regardless of whether they want to be educated. If you fill classrooms full of kids who don't want to be there, it should come as no surprise when overall test scores are low. I wonder how many other countries attempt to educate everybody, and how the cream of our crop compares to the rest of the wealthy world...

I don't really have a point. Just musing...Indeed. Most other wealthy countries have a multi-track educational system in which those interested in learning a trade instead of going on to university (i.e. they want to be an auto mechanic) are not required to study, or be tested on, science/math/language at the same level as those who do want to move on to university. Instead they are taught those things that are immediately relevant to their intended profession.

Amongst those who do desire to go on to university, math/science/language is taught at an accelerated rate, far surpassing that in the US. Physics is a common subject for 14-15 yr olds in Germany, for example. US students don't generally even get the option to really study physics until they've been in college for a year, if they ever get to study it at all.

And instead of the US upping its curriculum to try and compete, they've been cutting the budget and dumbing it down, and lowering the testing requirements, to try and push more people through the (very very flawed) system that much faster.

So. Given the country's current educational climate: I doubt entirely that either of our candidates really understands what that study means, or how to effect a positive change, no matter what their speech writers may whip up for them to say on the matter.

[Eos of the Eons]

but I wonder of the fact that our scores are so low in comparison is a reflection of the fact that we attempt to educate everybody, regardless of whether they want to be educated. If you fill classrooms full of kids who don't want to be there, it should come as no surprise when overall test scores are low.I thought those numbers were for High School educations?

Nobody is forced to take secondary education, and in secondary education there are no generic "math scores".

Why shouldn't someone have to take basic math in High School? There are two types of math courses where I'm at, the lower level (13, 23, 33), and the advanced levels (10, 20, 30). Basic math should be requirement to get a High School diploma, and the same with English. Other courses are optional depending on student interest, but there is a certain number of credits required to graduate. My son can take trades courses, but still needs the basic lower level math courses to graduate.

If you have such a bad lot of students, that one would recommend letting some graduate without basic math courses just to raise math scores, then that is a truly SAD educational system.

[Eos of the Eons]

There are two parties, Republican (righ wing/more pro-religion), and Democratic (less right wing, more pro-science) in the US. No matter who becomes president, the party's policies will affect what the country takes on.

No matter who is the Republican candidate, the party is less supportive of science unless it is the kind of science that takes you to outer space and not into stem cell research. Democrats will always be more supportive of biological sciences and less apt to look to religion for guidance. That is just the nature of the political policies. Obama may seem more religious than Clinton, but he will never be as right wing as McCain and Bush.

You can bet that if McCain's party does answer the questions, there will be less of a pledge for supporting science education compared to what Obama's party wrote. Democrats will also be less apt to interfere with science compared to what the Republicans have done.

Many government scientists report political interference in their job. Is it acceptable for elected officials to hold back or alter scientific reports if they conflict with their own views The republicans are for more less ethical when it comes to science and interference. That is just the way they are *shrug*. I will restore the basic principle that government decisions should be based on the best- available, scientifically-valid evidence and not on the ideological predispositions of agency officials or political appointees. I do believe the democrats would do that, as that is just their policy anyways.

[gentlehorse]

I thought those numbers were for High School educations?

Nobody is forced to take secondary education, and in secondary education there are no generic "math scores".

Where I live, students are required to stay in school until they're 18. I don't know what you mean when you say 'in secondary education there are no generic "math scores"'.

Why shouldn't someone have to take basic math in High School? There are two types of math courses where I'm at, the lower level (13, 23, 33), and the advanced levels (10, 20, 30). Basic math should be requirement to get a High School diploma, and the same with English. Other courses are optional depending on student interest, but there is a certain number of credits required to graduate. My son can take trades courses, but still needs the basic lower level math courses to graduate.

Again, where I live, my school-aged daughter is required to take three years of math in high school, Algebra 1 and higher, and to take state-mandated exit exams in each class. They must score a "satisfactory" on the Algebra 1 test in order to receive a diploma. Fortunately for her, she's one of those who wants to be there and has scored "advanced" on every state-mandated test. Sadly, from what she tells me, there are many who don't. In this state, basic math courses at the secondary level are electives and do not count toward the math requirements for graduation.

If you have such a bad lot of students, that one would recommend letting some graduate without basic math courses just to raise math scores, then that is a truly SAD educational system.

I would never suggest that we let kids graduate without having taken a math class, for any reason, let alone test scores. The multi-track educational system that SkeptiChick mentioned doesn't sound like such a bad idea on the surface.

[Eos of the Eons]

Secondary education is anything after high school.

My kids can graduate at any age, they just need the credits required to get for either the regular or advanced diploma. I would have graduated at 17 if I hadn't dropped Math 30. I had to pay for Math 30 later on in College in order to earn my High School Diploma.

I don't understand how age factors in, what if all the courses are taken by 16 or 17? Do they have to hang around the lunch room until their 18th birthday?

Our kids can go to college as soon as they've earned their high school credits, and become welders or doctors depending on what they want to do, or take time off to travel and get a job. Age is not a factor.

Any kid will be stronger in one subject than another. They will earn higher marks in some courses that they prefer. So what? A good teacher helped me to achieve a 78% average in Math 20. I dropped Math 30 because the teacher was OLD and very Boring, so I took it later, at a higher price. My choice, and nobody should let me whine about it. I could have stuck around and tried harder, but life at the time for me just didn't warrant it. Too bad, so sad, so what. I got 100% on my English 30, because I LIKED it better. Again, so what.

Kids' preferences will affect their grades, and that is really not the teacher's fault. A teacher can help if they care to, but that doesn't mean a kid shouldn't have to take the course if they don't like it.

So I don't understand why you brought this up:
but I wonder of the fact that our scores are so low in comparison is a reflection of the fact that we attempt to educate everybody, regardless of whether they want to be educated.

If they want a high school diploma, then they need to do the courses required to get it. If they don't want one, then they fail and don't get to go on to any kind of secondary education. It's just a matter of life that their low scores affect the overall average. The average should reflect what all students achieved, since that is what the student got while they were there. If education improves in various ways, then more students will get better grades. Some won't, but then that is just life again. At least they tried, and at least they got a chance to be in school instead of being kicked out for low scores. Why not try to get everyone an education? Those that can't even pass basic math will just not graduate, but will come out with the courses they did pass (trades, english, whatever), and that is what they can go on to get a job with. Maybe later they can try again, like I did, and get their diploma. Late is better than never, and at least I had all the courses I needed already. Yeah, my math scores brought the class average down while I was there, but so what. I didn't want to be there at the time, but I was required to try, and it didn't hurt me. Get rid of the old drone, and I would have stayed.

There are many factors involved in a student average, interest, ability, teacher involvement etc. Having a kid in the class failing is still better than not having the kid there at all. They can try again later, or benefit from they courses they do actually pass.

[Eos of the Eons]

This Quiz might help, as unscientific and silly as it is. If you didn't already know where you stand, that is:
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blpoliticalquiz.htm

Democrat Quiz Scorre:
our score is 7 on a scale of 1 to 10. You are a solid Democrat. You are not as fiercely ideological or uncompromising as others in the party, but nonetheless remain a reliable supporter. If you could have your way, you'd like to see Democrats leaders take a slightly more accommodating approach on certain issues – and dial down some of their nakedly partisan and bitterly divisive rhetoric.

Republican Quiz Score:
Your score is 2 on a scale of 1 to 10. You are a devoted Democrat. You are quick to rally behind the party, even if you have not agreed with every decision Democratic leaders have made.
The few differences you have are nothing compared to your complete and utter contempt for the Republican Party and the intolerance, fanaticism, and warmongering for which it stands.

[BoogieWoogieWookie]

Physics is a common subject for 14-15 yr olds in Germany, for example. US students don't generally even get the option to really study physics until they've been in college for a year, if they ever get to study it at all.



Are you sure? I took my first physics course when I was 12 (H. S. sophomore). As nearly as I can recall (this being almost 50 years ago) I completed two physics courses as well as two algebra, geometry, trig, and chemistry courses during high school. Have our schools changed this much?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

From the link:


Well, his answer regarding education may have left something out. I'm no expert when it comes to educational systems of the wealthy nations of the world, but I wonder of the fact that our scores are so low in comparison is a reflection of the fact that we attempt to educate everybody, regardless of whether they want to be educated. If you fill classrooms full of kids who don't want to be there, it should come as no surprise when overall test scores are low. I wonder how many other countries attempt to educate everybody, and how the cream of our crop compares to the rest of the wealthy world...

I don't really have a point. Just musing...

Actually, the problem is we don't try to educate everybody. If you live in a poor area, you get less funding than people in the wealthier areas. Most other industrialized nations have centralized funding or some other method of equitable distribution of funds.

And it isn't all due to the tracking done in some countries, NZ and others have a system similar to ours and they still beat us out.

[SkeptiChick]

Are you sure? I took my first physics course when I was 12 (H. S. sophomore). As nearly as I can recall (this being almost 50 years ago) I completed two physics courses as well as two algebra, geometry, trig, and chemistry courses during high school. Have our schools changed this much?To which schools are you referring?

I was educated within the US. My high school education ended just over 10 years ago, and there were NO physics classes available while I was there -- not even for advanced students. If one was advanced enough to take a physics course, they needed to enroll in the local community college which offered concurrent enrollment for high school students with approval from administration. Algebra was standard for freshmen and sophomores. Calculus was only offered for those eligible for advanced placement, and there was only one class a year.

Was this the same as it was 50 years ago? I don't know. I wasn't alive then. Education in the US is also drastically different between public school (where I went) and private school (where my father went). My father, being in a private college prep school (to which he had to win a scholarship to attend mind you) 35 years ago was learning physics and latin and advanced mathematics from junior year onward.

My cousin was educated within Germany. Her "high school" education ended shortly before mine. At 14, she was taking physics, advanced chemistry, calculus, and latin -- she was on the university track, not the trade school track. I have no reference point for what schools were like in Germany longer ago than that.

[gentlehorse]

Actually, the problem is we don't try to educate everybody. If you live in a poor area, you get less funding than people in the wealthier areas.

Less funding for what? Schools. Schools for whom? Everybody. I agree that there is often a disparity in funding from one area to the next.

Most other industrialized nations have centralized funding or some other method of equitable distribution of funds.

That wouldn't surprise me in the least, though I really wouldn't know.

And it isn't all due to the tracking done in some countries, NZ and others have a system similar to ours and they still beat us out.

Is that right? Are you sure? What other countries? I'm intrigued.

[fls]

To which schools are you referring?

I was educated within the US. My high school education ended just over 10 years ago, and there were NO physics classes available while I was there -- not even for advanced students. If one was advanced enough to take a physics course, they needed to enroll in the local community college which offered concurrent enrollment for high school students with approval from administration. Algebra was standard for freshmen and sophomores. Calculus was only offered for those eligible for advanced placement, and there was only one class a year.

Was this the same as it was 50 years ago? I don't know. I wasn't alive then. Education in the US is also drastically different between public school (where I went) and private school (where my father went). My father, being in a private college prep school (to which he had to win a scholarship to attend mind you) 35 years ago was learning physics and latin and advanced mathematics from junior year onward.

My cousin was educated within Germany. Her "high school" education ended shortly before mine. At 14, she was taking physics, advanced chemistry, calculus, and latin -- she was on the university track, not the trade school track. I have no reference point for what schools were like in Germany longer ago than that.

I have no idea how typical this is, but I have two kids in high school and their course options include physics, latin and calculus. It looks like this may vary from district to district if your experience is different. I suppose that makes it difficult to make blanket statements about where the US is at when it comes to education in these areas.

Linda

[SkeptiChick]

I have no idea how typical this is, but I have two kids in high school and their course options include physics, latin and calculus. It looks like this may vary from district to district if your experience is different. I suppose that makes it difficult to make blanket statements about where the US is at when it comes to education in these areas.

LindaIndeed. From district to district also varies greatly. If your children are in public school, you are very lucky to have found one that offers physics and latin. The only way to obtain such offerings in my area are to pay exorbitant rates for private schools.

As another example of differences between districts: The school district I went to offered German as a foreign language option in addition to French and Spanish, and field biology as a science option. The district my sister went to offered neither of those.

[PingOfPong]

I have no idea how typical this is, but I have two kids in high school and their course options include physics, latin and calculus. It looks like this may vary from district to district if your experience is different. I suppose that makes it difficult to make blanket statements about where the US is at when it comes to education in these areas.


I took a physics class in public school and it was completely devoid of any math or understanding. Instead, they taught some sciencey terminology. That's all. It was useless.

I have an extremely low opinion of public education. They really dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator. That includes the so-called advanced placement classes. It's a joke and educators should be ashamed of themselves. They should drop the education charade and just call it what it is, day-care for children who behave no better than animals. The only thing I learned in public school was hatred and how to fight. That includes a fight in that same physics class (I didn't start it but I put stop to it). Yes, I'm a little bitter about it.

When I was 17 I said to hell with it and dropped out to get my GED. It's hard to believe but some people (not me) actually fail that test. I got a 2 year degree from a community college then gained admission to a great 4-year university where my learning finally began, although it was much later than I would have liked.

When teachers cry for more money I cynically think to myself they should get the going rate for baby sitters.

[Patriot4life]

Secondary education is anything after high school.

Just for clarification, in the US secondary education refers to High School.

According to this Wiki, secondary education also refers to High School in Ontario and BC, Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_school

[Eos of the Eons]

Anyhoo, as a Canadian, I naively believe education and science in the USA is better when Democrats are in charge. Have our resident USAsians found that at all?

[gentlehorse]

I took a physics class in public school and it was completely devoid of any math or understanding. Instead, they taught some sciencey terminology. That's all. It was useless.

I have an extremely low opinion of public education. They really dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator. That includes the so-called advanced placement classes. It's a joke and educators should be ashamed of themselves. They should drop the education charade and just call it what it is, day-care for children who behave no better than animals. The only thing I learned in public school was hatred and how to fight. That includes a fight in that same physics class (I didn't start it but I put stop to it). Yes, I'm a little bitter about it.

When I was 17 I said to hell with it and dropped out to get my GED. It's hard to believe but some people (not me) actually fail that test. I got a 2 year degree from a community college then gained admission to a great 4-year university where my learning finally began, although it was much later than I would have liked.

When teachers cry for more money I cynically think to myself they should get the going rate for baby sitters.

My public school experience was very different. I was no Einstein. My teachers were quite good, for the most part, and I have fond memories of many of them. Most worked hard, explained concepts well, and were patient. Sure, we had some students who behaved "no better than animals", but that's to be expected, I guess, in a system that has few minimum requirements for enrollment. The teachers dealt with the behavior as best they could. It didn't occur to me to blame the teachers for the behavior of others.

When teachers ask for more money and supplies, I'm inclined to be sympathetic. I have a great deal of respect for the job they do.

Congrats on having overcome the obstacles in your path.

[PingOfPong]

Anyhoo, as a Canadian, I naively believe education and science in the USA is better when Democrats are in charge. Have our resident USAsians found that at all?


No, education is mostly a state affair. I went to school in Florida near the end of over 4 decades of Democrat control (gov. Lawton Chiles had a mostly democrat legislature). Also, I'm trying to find the statistic to back this up but I remember reading that the majority of educators across the country are Democrat. Anyway, being partisan and blaming the other party won't accomplish anything.

[PingOfPong]

Sure, we had some students who behaved "no better than animals", but that's to be expected, I guess, in a system that has few minimum requirements for enrollment. The teachers dealt with the behavior as best they could. It didn't occur to me to blame the teachers for the behavior of others.


The officials (who were mostly promoted teachers) had absolutely no control of anything.

[PingOfPong]

I promise to try to minimize the ranting. I'll try to get back on point.

Here's a quote from Obama:


All American citizens need high quality STEM education that inspires them to know more about the world around them, engages them in exploring challenging questions, and involves them in high quality intellectual work. STEM education is no longer only for those pursuing STEM careers; it should enable all citizens to solve problems, collaborate, weigh evidence, and communicate ideas. I will work to ensure that all Americans, including those in traditionally underrepresented groups, have the knowledge and skills they need to engage in society, innovate in our world, and compete in the global economy.


This is absolutely wrong. It's endemic of what I think is the basic problem with American education. In the effort to present STEM topics to all pupils the material will become so dilute that it will mean nothing.

There is this prevalent educational philosophy that all students should be treated as equals. It's absurd. Steering someones education should not be thought of as disenfranchisement. Students would be better served if the curriculum could be customized to their aptitudes and interests. There's nothing wrong with being an auto mechanic who doesn't know anything about EM physics.

I think it would be better for us to adopt a European style of education where curriculums diverge into academic and vocational studies.

[SkeptiChick]

I promise to try to minimize the ranting. I'll try to get back on point.

Here's a quote from Obama:





This is absolutely wrong. It's endemic of what I think is the basic problem with American education. In the effort to present STEM topics to all pupils the material will become so dilute that it will mean nothing.

There is this prevalent educational philosophy that all students should be treated as equals. It's absurd. Steering someones education should not be thought of as disenfranchisement. Students would be better served if the curriculum could be customized to their aptitudes and interests. There's nothing wrong with being an auto mechanic who doesn't know anything about EM physics.

I think it would be better for us to adopt a European style of education where curriculums diverge into academic and vocational studies.
I just want to say: I absolutely agree with you.

[gentlehorse]

I just want to say: I absolutely agree with you.

Ditto--

[fishbob]

I was educated within the US. My high school education ended just over 10 years ago, and there were NO physics classes available while I was there -- not even for advanced students. If one was advanced enough to take a physics course, they needed to enroll in the local community college which offered concurrent enrollment for high school students with approval from administration. Algebra was standard for freshmen and sophomores. Calculus was only offered for those eligible for advanced placement, and there was only one class a year.

Was this the same as it was 50 years ago?

This is a sad state of affairs. Where are you located?

40 years ago, in the public school in a po-dunk little town in south Texas:
Biology was required, Chemistry and Physics were available as options, and were pretty good introductory courses. Algebra, Geometry, Trig, and Intro Calculus were also available as options.

[SkeptiChick]

This is a sad state of affairs. Where are you located?

40 years ago, in the public school in a po-dunk little town in south Texas:
Biology was required, Chemistry and Physics were available as options, and were pretty good introductory courses. Algebra, Geometry, Trig, and Intro Calculus were also available as options.California. Which, admittedly, has one of the worst education systems in the USA...

[skeptigirl]

Indeed. From district to district also varies greatly. If your children are in public school, you are very lucky to have found one that offers physics and latin. The only way to obtain such offerings in my area are to pay exorbitant rates for private schools.

As another example of differences between districts: The school district I went to offered German as a foreign language option in addition to French and Spanish, and field biology as a science option. The district my sister went to offered neither of those.Well here in Microsoft land the public schools all have multiple language choices, advanced math including calculus, physics and chemistry, advanced biology and so on. A child can go to a different school in the district if it offers a class the assigned school does not. There is even a program for high schoolers to go to the local community college and take classes there. They have high school in the morning and go to college in the afternoon.

My son had a number of college credit classes before finishing high school. Those classes were taught in the high school. He also took 3 years of Japanese starting in middle school.

[skeptigirl]

California. Which, admittedly, has one of the worst education systems in the USA...Looks like a lot of changes were made just after you finished school. Here is a link to the CA State Board of Education (http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/index.asp). It specifies exactly what is required and what is to be offered and it includes a lot of science and math. Open the links for the specifics.

[SkeptiChick]

Looks like a lot of changes were made just after you finished school. Here is a link to the CA State Board of Education (http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/index.asp). It specifies exactly what is required and what is to be offered and it includes a lot of science and math. Open the links for the specifics.I'm quite familiar with the California Content Standards. In addition to being a California public school graduate, my son attended california public schools until 3rd grade.

Yes, a lot of changes were enacted to the state standards immediately after I graduated. A lot of changes were enacted --before-- I graduated, but not one of them trickled down to me. My sister graduated 5 years after I did, and still nothing had actually changed. In fact, these changes have still not yet been enacted by all the districts within the state.

Example: My son's second grade teacher originally had NO science in her lesson plan until my S.O. and myself met with her to express our concern and explain the importance of science being taught. His third grade teacher taught virtually no science, and what science she did teach was not up to the third grade standard. In fact, it was barely up to the second grade standard.

So, while the state may have its standards, they are NOT being followed across the board -- mainly due to underfunding, and lack of knowledgeable and experienced teaching staff. California is currently in an education crisis of sorts. Test scores are so low that the state is taking control of individual school districts in the attempt to force conformity in curriculum and budget control. Unfortunately, the end result is that what actually gets taught is how to pass the rigorous testing that goes on for a month and a half in the third quarter of the school year, and nothing else. And, for the record, these tests only assess math and english skills. Not science.

[Jimbo07]

I just want to say: I absolutely agree with you.

I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

Canada has subtle ways to steer a student's education. I almost got steered in grade 9, by a teacher who felt I was bad at math. I'd like to meet him again, but he's probably dead.

ETA: By Canada, I of course mean the varied educational systems of the provinces :rolleyes:

[BoogieWoogieWookie]

To which schools are you referring?


This was just a small private high school in SE Kentucky. My physics teacher is still alive after all these years, and he was grey haired and balding even then. Although over 90 years old now, he is just as sharp as he was then and I still enjoy talking with him, even if I have gone beyond him in education. I respect his intelligence and wisdom, both of which are greater than mine.

AFAIK, physics courses were standard offerings in Kentucky high schools back then. I am not sure if they are still offered. I'll have to check. I have a niece that teaches chemistry there now, although it is now in a newer, more modern facility.

[SkeptiChick]

This was just a small private high school in SE Kentucky. My physics teacher is still alive after all these years, and he was grey haired and balding even then. Although over 90 years old now, he is just as sharp as he was then and I still enjoy talking with him, even if I have gone beyond him in education. I respect his intelligence and wisdom, both of which are greater than mine.

AFAIK, physics courses were standard offerings in Kentucky high schools back then. I am not sure if they are still offered. I'll have to check. I have a niece that teaches chemistry there now, although it is now in a newer, more modern facility.I think it's great you have that kind of relationship with your physics teacher. I wish I could say that any of my teachers had impacted me quite that way. :)

As I've mentioned, California public schools are in crisis, so they probably aren't anywhere near Kentucky at this point (I haven't looked at the national rankings recently enough to remember), and Kentucky schools probably haven't experienced the intense downward spiral that California ones have -- Or at least, I hope they haven't! :)

[PingOfPong]

I think there will be an inevitable split in opinions. There will be those who had a decent public education experience then there will be people like me who had a horrendous public education experience.

I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

Canada has subtle ways to steer a student's education. I almost got steered in grade 9, by a teacher who felt I was bad at math. I'd like to meet him again, but he's probably dead.

ETA: By Canada, I of course mean the varied educational systems of the provinces :rolleyes:


That's easy for a Canadian to say. I'll bet that barely squeaking by in a Canadian math class is superior to excelling in the American equivalent class. Take a look at these test score statistics (http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm). Canadians must have a higher standard.

[tyr_13]

You know, for as long as I've been alive I've been hearing about how bad the American school system is, with lots of studies and stats, etc thrown about to prove it. Well maybe it is just because I was educated in New York state (where every but Physics is mandatory), but it's compared nicely to all the other systems I've personally seen (Canadian, Mexican, and Japanese). Also when I was in high school, all but one exchange student we had was behind in the courses. Of course you'd expect some decline because of language differences, culture shock, being chased after by American teenage girls, etc, but there were native Spanish speakers failing Spanish, and Germans dropping Physics and failing math.

Sure, it's all anecdotal, I understand that. However, I do know one thing that our and other education systems are abysmal at and that is identifying intelligence. Low class scores doesn't have to mean a bunch of idiot students, a system that is failing completely.

[Elvis666]

40 years ago, in the public school in a po-dunk little town in south Texas:Biology was required, Chemistry and Physics were available as options, and were pretty good introductory courses. Algebra, Geometry, Trig, and Intro Calculus were also available as options.

That duplicates the courses I took in high school in the late 60's in rural West Tennessee. I also suffered through two years of Latin. Not bad for a place with a student body of less than 500 and was the largest of the three high schools in the county.

[Filippo Lippi]

Still no answers from McCain. Disappointing, even from way over here.

[Eos of the Eons]

He should let his running mate answer the questions... bwa haaa
http://richarddawkins.net/article,3067,Palins-Church-May-Have-Shaped-Controversial-Worldview,Nico-Pitney-and-Sam-Stein-Huffington-Post (http://richarddawkins.net/article,3067,Palins-Church-May-Have-Shaped-Controversial-Worldview,Nico-Pitney-and-Sam-Stein-Huffington-Post)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html)



Three months before she was thrust into the national political spotlight, Gov. Sarah Palin was asked to handle a much smaller task: addressing the graduating class of commission students at her one-time church, Wasilla Assembly of God.
Her speech in June provides as much insight into her policy leanings as anything uncovered since she was asked to be John McCain's running mate.
Speaking before the Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out the will of the Lord.
"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

Just prior to discussing Iraq, Alaska's governor asked the audience to pray for another matter -- a $30 billion national gas pipeline project that she wanted built in the state. "I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she said.