New Palestinian-Arabic poll

[Mycroft]

And it contains some disturbing numbers!

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1066799672944


Fifty-nine percent of Palestinians believe that Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad should continue their armed struggle against Israel even if Israel leaves all of the West Bank and Gaza, including East Jerusalem, and a Palestinian state is created, a new survey shows.

So for 59%, it's not really about independence and self determination, is it?

Similarly, 80 percent of Palestinians say that, under those circumstances, the Palestinians should not give up the "right of return."

There is no lock or door, but they still hang on to that key.

Nintey-six percent of Israeli Jews say the people who piloted the planes on September 11 were terrorists, while 37 percent of Palestinians share that view.

Then what were they?

[AN@S]

Originally posted by Mycroft
And it contains some disturbing numbers!

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1066799672944



So for 59%, it's not really about independence and self determination, is it?



There is no lock or door, but they still hang on to that key.



Then what were they?

Palestinians believe that even if Israel leaves all of the West Bank and Gaza, and East Jerusalem, there'll still be an Israeli occupation to the Plestinian land (occupied in 1948) ..

About the right of return: Who said that there's no lock?
There are more than 3 Million palestinians out of Palestine (I am not sure of the number, may be more...) and Israel , of course, will not let that number of palestinians to return.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by AN@S

Palestinians believe that even if Israel leaves all of the West Bank and Gaza, and East Jerusalem, there'll still be an Israeli occupation to the Plestinian land (occupied in 1948) ..

To clarify; meaning the entire state of Israel.

Originally posted by AN@S About the right of return: Who said that there's no lock?
There are more than 3 Millions palestinians out of Palestine (I am not sure of the number, may be more...) and Israel , of course, will not let that number of palestinians to return.

3.5 million being the latest numbers I've seen.

I agree. Israel will not let that many return.

[Skeptic]

Of course, to decode An@S's message, one should note that "palestinian territories occupied in 1948" means all of israel, and the claim that there will be peace when israel "stops the occupation" means that there will be "peace" when israel is destroyed.

[geni]

50 years of having the s*!t beaten out of you probabaly causes some reserdue bad feeling. Are there any surveys of how many settelers would be preparded to leave if there was a garentee of peace (all though for now saddly I susspect this question qould have to be purely hyperthetical)?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by geni
50 years of having the s*!t beaten out of you probabaly causes some reserdue bad feeling. Are there any surveys of how many settelers would be preparded to leave if there was a garentee of peace (all though for now saddly I susspect this question qould have to be purely hyperthetical)?

There are plenty who were duped into moving there who would be happy to leave if they could sell up.

As for the topic. Both sides are into the fatalistically digging in phase of the conflict. Hopefully they will both get to the "I am sick of this, let's call it off" phase soon.

[Tony]

I’ve said this once and I’ll say it again, Israel should give the Palestinians what they want; all out war. When the Israelis inevitably win, and all the Palestinians are dead, the world will rejoice at the ensuing peace.

[a_unique_person]

They don't want all out war. Sharon would like that.

[Cain]

50 years of having the s*!t beaten out of you probabaly causes some reserdue bad feeling. Are there any surveys of how many settelers would be preparded to leave if there was a garentee of peace (all though for now saddly I susspect this question qould have to be purely hyperthetical)?

Nope. The "Palestinians" won't stop until they finally push all the Jews into the ocean. Their regular aggressions against holy Israel will be met with swift retaliation, and the prospects of "Palestinian" self-determination through (terrorist) state-hood, while supported by the anti-Semitic world (i.e. all countries excluding the US and Israel), is a faint hope indeed.

Which brings us to a perfectly genocidal solution:

I’ve said this once and I’ll say it again, Israel should give the Palestinians what they want; all out war. When the Israelis inevitably win, and all the Palestinians are dead, the world will rejoice at the ensuing peace.

Seriously. If we could finally manage to kill all the "Palestinians", then we wouldn't have all these problems. Gosh, such comments sound reminiscent of a certain ideology responsible for a certain World War -- but any and all parallels are either coincidential, contrived, and/or anti-Semitic.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Cain

Seriously. If we could finally manage to kill all the "Palestinians", then we wouldn't have all these problems. Gosh, such comments sound reminiscent of a certain ideology responsible for a certain World War -- but any and all parallels are either coincidential, contrived, and/or anti-Semitic.


Except this time the roles are reversed, the jews and the freethinkers would be killing the gay hating, racist, bigoted, and tyrannical fascists. Which side are you on?

[Cain]

In all seriousness I am inclined to agree with your arguments for genocide. The "Palestinians" have been oppressing little Israel for too long (tyrannical fascists!). I further agree with neutral terms used to describe each side. Jews in favor of genocide? Certainly. Free-thinkers? Most definitely. Nutty right-wing Christians? Well, sure, them too. Your final solution will finally rid the world of a particularly insidious racism and bigotry. Sounds good to me.

[Malachi151]

The Israelis should give the Palastinians the West Bank and Gaza and whatever else they are "supposed" to have, and then the world will pretty much be on Israel's side so if the Palastinians keep attacking the Israeli's will be seen much more favorably and the world will side with them.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Cain
In all seriousness I am inclined to agree with your arguments for genocide. The "Palestinians" have been oppressing little Israel for too long (tyrannical fascists!). I further agree with neutral terms used to describe each side. Jews in favor of genocide? Certainly. Free-thinkers? Most definitely. Nutty right-wing Christians? Well, sure, them too. Your final solution will finally rid the world of a particularly insidious racism and bigotry. Sounds good to me.


I've noticed that sarcasm is your way of skirting the issue.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Tony



Except this time the roles are reversed, the jews and the freethinkers would be killing the gay hating, racist, bigoted, and tyrannical fascists. Which side are you on?

Tony,

anyone who considers genocide as a solution to a problem can only be on one side: the side of people like Hitler. I suppose you will not be on your own there. You will, however, have to do without my company, as I have still some residue of ethics left in me.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Chaos


Tony,

anyone who considers genocide as a solution to a problem can only be on one side: the side of people like Hitler. I suppose you will not be on your own there. You will, however, have to do without my company, as I have still some residue of ethics left in me.

I am not advocating genocide. Im advocating all out war.

[Tmy]

This poll sounds bogus. Whats up with the 911 question? Whats that got to do wh the mid east conflict? Its seems that the only point of that question is to get a result that will anger Americans. The poll wants to paint a picture that all Palis are just bloodthirsty maniacs and its OK for Isreal to roll over them because they are animals.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Tony


I am not advocating genocide. Im advocating all out war.

Tony,

you say here:

I’ve said this once and I’ll say it again, Israel should give the Palestinians what they want; all out war. When the Israelis inevitably win, and all the Palestinians are dead, the world will rejoice at the ensuing peace.

(bold face mine)

You suggested killing all palestinians. Killing all member of a people is, by definition, genocide (from Latin: killing a people).

[Tony]

Originally posted by Chaos

You suggested killing all palestinians. Killing all member of a people is, by definition, genocide (from Latin: killing a people).


That is just my prediction of the outcome if Israel was to wage all out war. Basically, I think the palestinains will fight until they are all dead.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Tony



That is just my prediction of the outcome if Israel was to wage all out war. Basically, I think the palestinains will fight until they are all dead.

Not even the most perverted and falsified poll ever presented in this forum ever said that ALL Palestinians favor violence against Israel.
That is, if you suggest the Israelis fight as long as the Palestinians fight, some Palestinians will survive.
You, however, suggested the Israelis should fight until all Palestinians are dead. That would include those who did not fight. This is genocide. Period.

Lesson: Switch on brain. Then post. Or switch on brain and don´t post.
Or admit that you advocated genocide.

[Cain]

Originally posted by Tony

I've noticed that sarcasm is your way of skirting the issue.

No, sarcasm is a tool used to make a point. You are indeed advocating genocide (and it should go without saying that this is morally reprhensible). Don't worry, though, advocating genocide isn't nearly as bad as... oh say, when somebody grossly molests a few comments and then repeatedly declares you an anti-Semite.

(See sarcasm).

That is just my prediction of the outcome if Israel was to wage all out war.

And you clearly advocate Israel waging an an all out war:

Im advocating all out war.

The result would be genocide -- and unrestrained euphoria. "...the world will rejoice at the ensuing peace."

[Tony]

Originally posted by Chaos


Not even the most perverted and falsified poll ever presented in this forum ever said that ALL Palestinians favor violence against Israel.
That is, if you suggest the Israelis fight as long as the Palestinians fight, some Palestinians will survive.
You, however, suggested the Israelis should fight until all Palestinians are dead. That would include those who did not fight. This is genocide. Period.

Lesson: Switch on brain. Then post. Or switch on brain and don´t post.
Or admit that you advocated genocide.


All I said is what I think would happen, thats no reason for you to have a fit.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Cain


You are indeed advocating genocide (and it should go without saying that this is morally reprhensible). Don't worry, though, advocating genocide isn't nearly as bad as... oh say, when somebody grossly molests a few comments and then repeatedly declares you an anti-Semite.


This is one of those cases where the ends justify the means, IMO. What's "morally reprehensible" depends on your morals. I care more for human rights and freedom than I do a culture of brutal, backwards religious fanatics.

[Tmy]

IF Israel wipes out the Palis there wouldnt be peace. The other arab nations would freak, destablizing the region even more. If Isreal was wiped out, that would stablize things and bring about peace. (not that either senerio would ever happen)

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
IF Israel wipes out the Palis there wouldnt be peace. The other arab nations would freak, destablizing the region even more.

Which would result in another war, which Israel would easily win with our help.

[Tmy]

"our help", how does the US get drawn into this. No way would we help Isreal run overthe whole region.

[Furious]

Originally posted by Tmy
IF Israel wipes out the Palis there wouldnt be peace. The other arab nations would freak, destablizing the region even more. If Isreal was wiped out, that would stablize things and bring about peace. (not that either senerio would ever happen)

Calling ******** on this one. I'd bet Sunni and Shiite tensions alone would eventually become more pronounced and boil over into a war. See Iran/Iraq war.

The only time there will be peace in the Middle East is when every one of those countries becomes either some kind of democracy, or much more economically viable. As long as there are poor people who don't feel like they are properly represented in their government, there will be many reasons for strife.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
"our help", how does the US get drawn into this. No way would we help Isreal run overthe whole region.

And you know this....HOW?

The US government "overran" the whole of our region, from ocean to ocean. Why wouldnt we help another free country do the same?

[Tmy]

How wouldl democracy bring peace tween religious rivals like Shites and Sunni? Has that ever happened anywere. You need a strong dictator/king to keep them freaks under control.

If you want peace in the mideast ( or sumthin close to it) then whipe out Israel. Major problem solved! Running the jews out of Europe worked wonders for the place!

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
If you want peace in the mideast ( or sumthin close to it) then whipe out Israel. Major problem solved! Running the jews out of Europe worked wonders for the place!


Because the world could use another fundie muslim state. More murder, more torture, more terroism, more barbarism, more illiteracy, more tyranny, yes, that's exactly what the world needs. :rolleyes:

[Tmy]

There are no bad dictatorships, just bad dictators!

So what if a country is run by soem fundie, as long as the the fundiw is OK with the US then its good for us. If Isreal did run over thses countries what do you think youd have? One giant mid east democracy? No, youd have an Isreali puppet dictatorship.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Tony


I am not advocating genocide. Im advocating all out war. A. Advocates all out war
B. Predicts all out war will lead to all Palestinians being dead
C. Advocates all Palestinians die?

It's a pretty simple formulation. You said it. Own up to it.

Wimp.

[Tony]

Originally posted by hgc
A. Advocates all out war
B. Predicts all out war will lead to all Palestinians being dead
C. Advocates all Palestinians die?

It's a pretty simple formulation. You said it. Own up to it.



Its too simple of a formulation. My position on this is much more complex than that.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Tony



Its too simple of a formulation. My position on this is much more complex than that. OK, fair enough. If you don't advocate Palestinian genocide; if the conclusion I got is contrary to your position, then can you explain how your previous statements lead to a different conclusion? It's not too complex to put into words, is it?

[Tony]

Ill answer later this weekend. I am about to leave work in a few mins., so I dont have the time right now. Cool?

[Mycroft]

Jesus guys! We got one person saying peace will come after the Palestinian-Arabs are annihilated and another guy saying peace will come after the Israelis are annihilated. Can’t anyone imagine peace other than the peace of the grave?

The poll is pessimistic, I find it depressing too, but surely it doesn’t mean that one group or the other has to die, does it?!

[Scott]

Originally posted by AN@S
About the right of return: Who said that there's no lock?
There are more than 3 Million palestinians out of Palestine (I am not sure of the number, may be more...) and Israel , of course, will not let that number of palestinians to return.Actually there are about 5,000,000 Palestinians claiming the right of return, but there were only about 750,000 Palestinians who fled the country prior to the 1948 attack on Isreal by the rest of the Arab world, that actaully have the right of return because they actually lived there. They expected to return once the area was free of Jewish people after the 1948 attacks on it, and then, once again, be the walked on majority of citizens ruled by the minority of Jordan.

As a side note, Isreal gives it's Arab citizens (including Palestinians) the the right to vote. It would be stupid for 6,500,000 Isrealies to give 5,000,000 of their enemies the right to vote for Isreal's existence, wouldn't it?

Second question - what other Middle Eastern country allows it's citizens the right to vote?

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch10.pdf
http://www.un.org/unrwa/index.html

and an interesting read...

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4454

[Thumper]

Originally posted by Scott
Second question - what other Middle Eastern country allows it's citizens the right to vote?

Answer:

Iran

Turkey

And others, depending on what you specifically mean by "right to vote."

[Scott]

Originally posted by Scott
Second question - what other Middle Eastern country allows it's citizens the right to vote? Duly noted, Thumper, so a correction:

What other Arab country allows Arabs to vote?

[Thumper]

Ok, a little research, gives these Arab countries:

Yemen, parliamentary: 1993, 1997
Syria, parliamentary: 1994, but not 1998
Palestine, parliamentary: 1996
Palestine, presidential: 1996
Lebanon, parliamentary: 1992, 1996, 2000
Kuwait, parliamentary: 1975, 1981, 1985, 1992, 1996, not 1999
Jordan, parliamentary: 1989, 1993, 1997
Egypt, parliamentary: 1976, 1984, 1987, 1990, 1995
Aruba, parliamentary: 1993, 1994, 1997

Source: IDEA http://www.idea.int/vt/country_view.cfm

Ok, I know Aruba isn't an Arab country, but I want to go there. Also, technically, neither are Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, or Syria.

So, only Yemen and Kuwait fit your criteria.

[Chaos]

I don´t know about Yemen, but Kuwait never struck me as being particularly democratic. They are a monarchy, aren´t they?

I think that, with the possible exception of Jordan, all these elections, even the parliaments themselves, are more or less for decoration only.


@Tony:
And you know this....HOW?

The US government "overran" the whole of our region, from ocean to ocean. Why wouldnt we help another free country do the same?

Are you referring to the "conquest" of the American continent? Another (luckily, unsuccessful) attempt at genocide...you seem really enthusiastic with wiping out peoples who are in your way.

Hint: Shut up. Your foot is already in your mouth, don´t stuff the other one in, too.