Large Hadron Collider to be switched on 10th Sept

[Mashuna]

It might create a virtual key and anti-key pair but then they will anihilate each other.

If that's already happened, it would explain why I can't find my key. And the huge explosion last night.

[Jeff Corey]

I really don't understand what everyone is worried about. So they create a black hole and suck in the entire universe. Poof! we're gone. Where's the pain and suffering?

~~ Paul

It looks like we'll find out. http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

[Arthur Denton]

Again, are we dead yet?

My father was worried. I showed him the links to the cameras. Now he feels better.

[Skeptic Ginger]

It looks like we'll find out. http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html:D

That's a good one.

[Jeff Corey]

I got the link from the Bad Asstronomer. The website seems to be down now....

[DanishDynamite]

It's not quite as simple as that. While I belive it is true that in the standard model (the simplest theory of particle physics we know that is consistent with all current data) the Higgs will be found, there are various slightly more complicated theories where it will be difficult or impossible to see with the LHC. Of course, they are not very natural - people constructed them after they knew the LHC would be built, basically to prove it's possible. But it is possible.I stand somewhat corrected.

[Acleron]

If symmetry still operates, what does the anti-Higgs particle do? Negative mass?

[DanishDynamite]

If symmetry still operates, what does the anti-Higgs particle do? Negative mass?
No such symmetry currently exists or is expected. If the LHC shows the existance of the Higgs, yes, then your question would have relevance. :)

[Olowkow]

A friend sent me this:

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

Live camera from inside the LHC and the parking lot.

I got a good laugh out of it.

[sol invictus]

If symmetry still operates, what does the anti-Higgs particle do? Negative mass?

Some particles are their own anti-particles, the photon and Higgs among them.

[Acleron]

Some particles are their own anti-particles, the photon and Higgs among them.

Thanks

[petra10]

I was wondering, if the Higgs Boston or the "God Partical" as some are calling it, is found will people question their religious beliefs?
Imagine if this time next year we have all the answers to the big universe questions, by that I mean we know the answer to how the universe was created. Would that mean the theory that a "superior being" created the world could be obsolete. Or would it in fact reinforce people's idea of a god?

[Tubbythin]

I was wondering, if the Higgs Boston or the "God Partical" as some are calling it, is found will people question their religious beliefs?
Imagine if this time next year we have all the answers to the big universe questions, by that I mean we know the answer to how the universe was created. Would that mean the theory that a "superior being" created the world could be obsolete. Or would it in fact reinforce people's idea of a god?

Depends what the theory was I'd guess.

[Kuko 4000]

I was wondering, if the Higgs Boston or the "God Partical" as some are calling it, is found will people question their religious beliefs?
Imagine if this time next year we have all the answers to the big universe questions, by that I mean we know the answer to how the universe was created. Would that mean the theory that a "superior being" created the world could be obsolete. Or would it in fact reinforce people's idea of a god?


The Higgs can now explain what happened before the BB?

[petra10]

I may be a bit mixed up :confused: (which is not hard for me). If the Higgs is found does that prove that the big bang really did happen? Therefore the universe came into being by natural means and not by the means of a god.

[MattusMaximus]

It looks like we'll find out. http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html


Excellent! This way we can see our imminent doom approaching. Time to party! :D

[dudalb]

It's the End of the World as We Know It.
It's the End of the World as We Know It,
It's the End of the World as We Know It,
And I'm Feeling Fine!

[sol invictus]

If the Higgs is found does that prove that the big bang really did happen?

No.

Therefore the universe came into being by natural means and not by the means of a god.

The discovery of the Higgs would be a triumph for scientific rationality and human reason, but I fail to see what it says about the origin of the universe or the existence of god. The whole "god particle" thing is really dumb.

Did you know that some early objections to the big bang revolved around the fact that it seemed to support the idea that there was a moment of creation and hence (somehow) a god?

[Gravy]

I was wondering, if the Higgs Boston or the "God Partical" as some are calling it, is found will people question their religious beliefs?No. Science can't tell us if gods exist. "God particle" is just a name given to the Higgs Boson to spice up the story. It's not as if the world's religious leaders met and decided that proof of its existence is proof or disproof of a God. Anyway, no matter what discoveries science produces, the religious have an ironclad reply: "That's how God made it."

Imagine if this time next year we have all the answers to the big universe questions, by that I mean we know the answer to how the universe was created. Would that mean the theory that a "superior being" created the world could be obsolete. Or would it in fact reinforce people's idea of a god?The experiments to be run in the LHC (some of which will take years to run and analyze) cannot tell us how the universe was created. The LHC is designed to reproduce some conditions believed to exist a small fraction of a second after the start of the Big Bang. It can't tell us what came before that, and it's not, as some call it, a "Big Bang Machine." Producing a Big Bang would mean producing a universe.

The experiments should shed light on the accuracy of the Standard Model of particle physics. The predicted existence of the Higgs Boson has long been a big part of that model, but until now there hasn't been a particle accelerator powerful enough to clearly reveal it. It is the only piece of the Standard Model that hasn't been observed through experiments. Pretty exciting!

[Fredrik]

"The god particle" really is one of the dumbest and most annoying names that anyone has ever come up with. The Higgs doesn't have anything to do with God.

Calling the LHC "the big bang machine" is also pretty dumb. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with the big bang. The point of building more powerful particle accelerators is that it allows physicists to see how well the current theories of physics works at higher energies. Earlier accelerators have shown that physics is very well understood up to a certain energy scale, and now a better accelerator has been built to see if our theories still agree with experiments at a slightly higher energy scale.

That energy scale is still 15 orders of magnitude less than the Planck energy (i.e. it's a millionth of a billionth of the Planck energy), so it's pretty silly to claim that this machine recreates the conditions of the big bang.

I don't know if it's been mentioned in this forum, but apparently some girl in India killed herself because of her fear of the LHC. That story could be a lie of course, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it's true.

[HghrSymmetry]

A friend sent me this:

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

Live camera from inside the LHC and the parking lot.

I got a good laugh out of it.

Good one.
----
I've been enduring "they're gonna make a black hole" and "we're going to slip into another dimension" woo from some acquaintances and friends.

I was too lazy/burned out to explain anything. I simply agreed with em', snickered, and changed the subject. :rolleyes:

[petra10]

Thanks Sol invictus and Gravy for explaining things a bit more clearly for me :)

Everytime I think I understand physics, somethings happens and I get confused. I guess I was took along with the hype of the media with the God partical thing.

[Spud1k]

I don't know who coined the term 'god particle', but I've always found it to be more than a little daft. But then that's exactly the sort of thing that the media loves to latch onto.

[KingMerv00]

It's the End of the World as We Know It.
It's the End of the World as We Know It,
It's the End of the World as We Know It,
And I'm Feeling Fine!

l_S0PGu-cH4

They're doing science and they're still alive.

[DanishDynamite]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I hope the little knowledge displayed by aggresors against the LHC will not affect humanity's continued exploration of how our Universe works. It is of course no new thing that the less witted oppose new knowledge. It is just sad to see.

[Aitch]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


I think you'll find that it's "A little learning is a dangerous thing". From the poem of the same name by Alexander Pope.

[/pedant]

[Arthur Denton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQNpucos9wc

[Dr Adequate]

Lt1Yo610lG0
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

[HghrSymmetry]

Good one DA.

I'll give it an 8.87 on the 'loss of contact with reality' woo scale.

[Arthur Denton]

Good one DA.

I'll give it an 8.87 on the 'loss of contact with reality' woo scale.

There is such a scale? Wow. Oops, woo. I had never heard of it. Do you have any example of 10 out of 10 points in this scale?

[HghrSymmetry]

Do you have any example of 10 out of 10 points in this scale?

It is more of an informal scale for entertainment purposes, but that's a good idea to actually quantify a scale, even if only at the whole number positions.

[MattusMaximus]

Lt1Yo610lG0
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!


At 1:05: "Scientists... freemasons... same thing."

WTF??!!! :confused:

That dude seriously needs to put down the bong... seriously...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_774747c0bf6fcb882.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=10987)

ETA: I'd say that this guy rates an 11 on the woo scale :rolleyes:

[Confuseling]

There is such a scale? Wow. Oops, woo. I had never heard of it. Do you have any example of 10 out of 10 points in this scale?

TimeCube!

(and it's logarithmic)

[KingMerv00]

Lt1Yo610lG0
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Hmmm...guess not all British guys are smart.

[Rasmus]

Lt1Yo610lG0
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Ouch, that hurt.

I am not sure which parts I liked best, though.

One thing that stuck out was the claim that the moon-landing hoax was set up only to lay the groundwork for the cover-up story behind this conspiracy.

[petra10]

AHA I knew it, bloody scientists/freemasons trying to take over the world again.

[Acleron]

Large Hadron Collider spitting out lost socks (http://blogs.thetimes.co.za/shaggydog/2008/09/18/large-hadron-collider-spitting-out-lost-socks/)

[Evilgiraffe]

Large Hadron Collider spitting out lost socks (http://blogs.thetimes.co.za/shaggydog/2008/09/18/large-hadron-collider-spitting-out-lost-socks/)

:D

Just don't read the comments. :jaw-dropp

I think a new variant of Poe's Law (http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe's_Law) needs to be formulated for the LHC. I honestly can't tell anymore who's an idiot and who's trolling on those sort of threads.

[Arthur Denton]

Seems they're calling the LHC Halo now. I think all my excitement with the project has gone to the trash can, and is weeping, thinking about death.

http://www.geekologie.com/2008/09/large_hadron_collider_gets_new.php

I don't know if that is truth, though.

[ohms]

Seems they had to switch it off for a bit:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626256.stm

oops!

[Nogbad]

Seems they had to switch it off for a bit:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626256.stm

oops!

I don't think the actual collision thing is scheduled to happen for another month. They are just playing with it at the moment (and seeing where the leaks and creaks are :) )

[dudalb]

HALO!!!!!!
Is the guy in charge of security for the LHC called Master Chief?

[TrueSceptic]

Seems they had to switch it off for a bit:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626256.stm

oops!
It will be out of action for 2 months! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626944.stm)
Now, was it a loose wire or those socks that caused the problem?

[Wildy]

www.isthelargehadroncolliderworkingyet.com (http://www.hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet. com/)

[Spud1k]

It will be out of action for 2 months! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626944.stm)
Now, was it a loose wire or those socks that caused the problem?

It was the cats. Creating mini-black holes is a cinch, but herding cats? The dilithium crystals just couldn't take it.

[Acleron]

It was the cats. Creating mini-black holes is a cinch, but herding cats? The dilithium crystals just couldn't take it.

The Computer Automated Training System, the cats (http://www.acronymdb.com/acronym/CATS) did them in.

[technoextreme]

It will be out of action for 2 months! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626944.stm)
Now, was it a loose wire or those socks that caused the problem?
Nah this is what happened. I don't know what to say. The guy drew this comic predicted it's demise a day before it broke.
Omni-Beam (http://www.starslip.com/2008/09/12/so-thats-what-happened-to-the-ssc/)
HALO!!!!!!
Is the guy in charge of security for the LHC called Master Chief?
No but a Gordon Freeman lookalike works there.:)

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Are we still here yet?

~~ Paul

[petra10]

We're still here but the bloody machine has broke. All that money and all the fanfare and the thing leaks helium :(,.

Oh well back to the drawing board

[HghrSymmetry]

Ah, heck, ferget the LHC. Let's complete the SSC (http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=502) and show dem Europeans whos got da biggest hammer!

;)

[geni]

Ah, heck, ferget the LHC. Let's complete the SSC (http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=502) and show dem Europeans whos got da biggest hammer!

;)

Would be difficult. Towards the end of the cold war the US and USSR were involved in a supercollider race. Some of the USSR's stuff is in the LHC.

[CapelDodger]

It was the cats. Creating mini-black holes is a cinch, but herding cats? The dilithium crystals just couldn't take it.

Even m'dog knows you can't herd cats; they must be caught and killed on sight.

[CaveDave]

We're still here but the bloody machine has broke. All that money and all the fanfare and the thing leaks helium :(,.

Oh well back to the drawing board

AIUI, I would be impressed if something that size did not leak helium after thermally and magnetically stressing it a few times.:)

That stuff finds the most amazing ways to leak. (especially supercooled helium)

Dave

[Spud1k]

I find it reassuring that when CERN has a problem, it is something spectacular that involves liquid helium and massive superconducting magnets and things. I'd hate all my tax money to be spent on an experiment that gets scuttled by someone mixing up inches with centimetres or leaving the coffee pot on or something.

[JoeyDonuts]

Uh-oh. Maybe they're making a Mass Relay. We're all screwed.

(Major nerd points for anyone who got that one.)

[TrueSceptic]

I find it reassuring that when CERN has a problem, it is something spectacular that involves liquid helium and massive superconducting magnets and things. I'd hate all my tax money to be spent on an experiment that gets scuttled by someone mixing up inches with centimetres or leaving the coffee pot on or something.
I dunno. Isn't a loose wire (http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2008/PR09.08E.html) just as bad? ;)
Preliminary investigations indicate that the most likely cause of the problem was a faulty electrical connection between two magnets, which probably melted at high current leading to mechanical failure.

[Spud1k]

I dunno. Isn't a loose wire (http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2008/PR09.08E.html) just as bad? ;)
Preliminary investigations indicate that the most likely cause of the problem was a faulty electrical connection between two magnets, which probably melted at high current leading to mechanical failure.

I'd like to think that the 'faulty electrical connection' they refer to is some hardcore high current mega big tension googleplex connector that weighs a metric tonne and takes four people to install. I also hope that the reason it failed was that it was just so goddamn extreme.

If it was just a case of someone forgetting to screw down a terminal in a junction box, I may cry.

[GreyICE]

Oh come on. Hyper-huge systems that are carefully engineered to the most precise detail rarely fail. That level of engineering and quality checking virtually ensures that.

And when they do fail? Either its quiet and small, or its so spectacular you can see it in nearby counties (probably means there was something theoretically wrong with the entire deal).

Copper wire? Less well engineered.

This strikes me as someone used the wrong wire gauge, and it melted under the load.

[alfaniner]

Does this mean everyone in Switzerland is now running around speaking in those high, squeaky helium voices?

[TrueSceptic]

Ah, heck, ferget the LHC. Let's complete the SSC (http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=502) and show dem Europeans whos got da biggest hammer!

;)
The SSC was designed to be 87 km, over 3 times the size of the LHC. Given that the LHC is supposed to be powerful enough to show Higgs bosons (if they exist), then what extra could the SSC have done?

Here's a bit of fun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Super_Collider).
A scientific hypothesis, published by Holger B. Neilsen of the Neils Bohr Institute at the University of Copenhagen and Masao Ninomiya of the Yukawa Institute For Theoretical Physics at Kyoto University, suggests that the creation of Higgs-Bosons within the SSC at a future time canceled out the past history of the collider itself and therefore caused the cancellation of the SSC's construction. According to Nielsen and Ninomiya, the creation of Higgs-Bosons in the future sent a wave of interference backwards through time which interrupted the funding, construction and operation of the collider. In simple terms, it's a form of backwards causality where the effect creates the cause. The creation of this interference wave from the future is apparently due to the intensity of the particle beams used within the collider. The hypothesis also states that this same type of effect may also interfere with the operation of the Large Hadron Collider at CERN and could be an explanation for a current series of inexplicable electrical and mechanical failures as well as other anomalous events.

[TrueSceptic]

I'd like to think that the 'faulty electrical connection' they refer to is some hardcore high current mega big tension googleplex connector that weighs a metric tonne and takes four people to install. I also hope that the reason it failed was that it was just so goddamn extreme.

If it was just a case of someone forgetting to screw down a terminal in a junction box, I may cry.
Loose wire. Dry solder joint. You know the sort of thing. :D

[Spud1k]

Loose wire. Dry solder joint. You know the sort of thing. :D

(sigh) if only that weren't true... Happens to the best of us, I guess.

[GreyICE]

(sigh) if only that weren't true... Happens to the best of us, I guess.
That's why you test run these things and gradually ramp up load. With miles upon miles of connections, there's sure to be more than this.

If we're lucky, we'll get it operational before 2009. I doubt it.

[andyandy]

It has just been announced that it won't be operational again until "spring". That seems worrying vague and rather a long way away. It could be six months before they start up again. Not great seeing as it only lasted 10 days on a warm up schedule. Oh well, at least it's keeping plenty of physicists and technicians off the streets. :)

[Spud1k]

And the kooks six more months to get their kookery in.

[Furcifer]

It has just been announced that it won't be operational again until "spring". That seems worrying vague and rather a long way away. It could be six months before they start up again. Not great seeing as it only lasted 10 days on a warm up schedule. Oh well, at least it's keeping plenty of physicists and technicians off the streets. :)


:)

There's a hint of genuine concern in this post that Doomsday won't be functional for an indescript amount of time in the near future. That's so sweet.

[Evilgiraffe]

:)

There's a hint of genuine concern in this post that Doomsday won't be functional for an indescript amount of time in the near future. That's so sweet.

"The time necessary for the investigation and repairs precludes a restart before CERN’s obligatory winter maintenance period, bringing the date for restart of the accelerator complex to early spring 2009. LHC beams will then follow."

From the CERN directorate, reported here (http://blogs.uslhc.us/).

It's obvious that CERN are confident that the LHC will be up and running after repairs. Scheduled maintenance is an unavoidable fact of life for large machines such as synchrotrons (both colliders and light sources). It merely unfortunate that the repairs will not be completed before the start of winter shut-down.

[UnrepentantSinner]

A buddy of mine found this comic about the LHC that was pretty funny.
http://concessioncomic.com/index.php?pid=20080916

[TrueSceptic]

It has just been announced that it won't be operational again until "spring". That seems worrying vague and rather a long way away. It could be six months before they start up again. Not great seeing as it only lasted 10 days on a warm up schedule. Oh well, at least it's keeping plenty of physicists and technicians off the streets. :)
The original plan was for a carefully staged commissioning process but because the project was running late and over-budget, it was decided to fast-track the schedule.

It looks like the gamble did not pay off. :(

[JoeyDonuts]

The original plan was for a carefully staged commissioning process but because the project was running late and over-budget, it was decided to fast-track the schedule.

It looks like the gamble did not pay off. :(

Guess they should have sprung for a flux capacitor that can handle a greater load than 1.2 jigawatts.

[sol invictus]

It has just been announced that it won't be operational again until "spring". That seems worrying vague and rather a long way away. It could be six months before they start up again. Not great seeing as it only lasted 10 days on a warm up schedule. Oh well, at least it's keeping plenty of physicists and technicians off the streets. :)

I think the plan is never to run during the winter because of the cost of electricity. So the delay is probably longer than just what it would take to fix the magnets.

This kind of thing happens every single time a new accelerator comes on line. The last big hadron collider - the Tevatron near Chicago - took forever to get going (primarily because of precisely the same problem), but in the end was a big success.

[technoextreme]

I think the plan is never to run during the winter because of the cost of electricity. So the delay is probably longer than just what it would take to fix the magnets.

Wait isn't that backwards? The accelerator on Long Island never operates during the summer because of the excess load from air conditioning.

[Acleron]

This chappie (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/emergingtech/0,1000000183,39495672,00.htm) seems to be implying that Star Trek type matter transmission will be a spin-off from the LHC!

[sol invictus]

Wait isn't that backwards? The accelerator on Long Island never operates during the summer because of the excess load from air conditioning.

Yeah, but the LHC is in Switzerland.

[HghrSymmetry]

Nambu pulls in the Nobel for his work on "broken symmetry." Interestingly, he wrote the paper 30 years ago.

The Higgs discovery would be instrumental in adding validity to the theory.

Physicists now think that a particle called the Higgs boson may be responsible for this spontaneous broken symmetry.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-nobel8-2008oct08,0,5299397.story

[sol invictus]

What's very weird about this Nobel is Kobayashi and Maskawa winning, but not Cabibbo. Nambu certainly deserved it, but I can't understand why K&M should get it before Cabibbo.

[GreyICE]

The original plan was for a carefully staged commissioning process but because the project was running late and over-budget, it was decided to fast-track the schedule.

It looks like the gamble did not pay off. :(

You know, there's a bit of woo for you. Everyone always assumes that commissioning can be cut. After all, unlike all those other projects, their project magically was built PROPERLY!

It never is, of course.

[Acleron]

What's very weird about this Nobel is Kobayashi and Maskawa winning, but not Cabibbo. Nambu certainly deserved it, but I can't understand why K&M should get it before Cabibbo.

What was the timeline of their efforts? I saw a quote from Maskawa where he was dismissive about the prize, perhaps he agrees with you. It's not the first time they got it wrong in physics, both Einstein and Feynman should have received more than one prize.

[Wallmott]

Won´t the other company who is looking for stranglets in space find out if stranglets really do exist before LHC does now when the LHC is delayed?

I remember allot of people claiming that LHC just wanted to start it up before them so they could win the nobel prize and dont care about the safety, lol.