Milk CAUSES osteoporosis??

[Aquila]

Please could we have some good sound scientific arguments either supporting or refuting the claim that milk actually contributes to bone weakening, in both men and women.

The theory is that since milk contains a high amount of protein, the stomach has to produce a large amount of HCl to digest it. This makes the body fluids acidic, and in an effort to maintain balance, the body tries to neutralize the ph by taking minerals from various parts of the system. It takes sodium first, and then calcium - from the bones.

Here are two websites which describe this:

http://www.yourhealthbase.com/database/a80h.htm

http://www.milksucks.com/osteo.asp

I remember when my daughter was doing a science fair project in 6th grade, she took chicken bones and put them in a glass of vinegar, with a glass of water and empty glass as a control. The vinegar bones turned rubbery.

I have absolutely no political interest in this issue, but personally do not drink milk. What are the facts?

[tyr_13]

Well the part that sounds like BS to me would be the high HCI making body fluids acidic and our bodies responding by taking calcium. If this were the case, any high protein food would cause weak bones. Most fish would suck your bones thin. Even if our bodies did work like this, wouldn't the calcium in the milk help minimize this compared to high protein foods that don't contain calcium?

Mr. Larsen has some rather, different, opinions on how our bodies operate, how the world works, and how everything we think is good is bad for us. He advocates fish oil supplements, etc. He is not a doctor.

I think I'll try to dig up the study showing that people are tallest with the least bone breaks in areas were milk is the cheapest.

[edit] Wait, does he mean high levels of vitamin A? That is in milk and can weaken bones. Because of that some doctors do believe that milk and dairy products aren't the best source of calcium. Of course they ignore how plentiful and cheap milk is when compared to other calcium sources...or the taste...now I want some milk.

[Doubt]

Well, I am no doctor, but his bit about sodium being taken from the body does not look good on it's face. If you loose sodium first I would think two things would happen. First, those folks with osteoporosis should be testing lower in sodium levels.

Also, with sodium being an electrolyte, those folks should be having more cramps.

[AgeGap]

ROME, ITALY. Italian researchers have just released a study linking excess protein consumption to the creation of an acid environment in the body and possible subsequent disease and bodily deterioration.

What is "excess protein consumption"? Would that be like Atkins?

Other studies have shown that omnivorous women lost 35 per cent of their bone mass over a 15-year period following menopause as compared to lacto-ovo vegetarians who only lost 18 per cent.

A lacto-ovo vegetarian would be getting protein from milk.

[Pidge]

Go find a graph plotting per-capita milk consumption vs osteoporosis rates around the world to see if there is any corrleation.

Randomly googling for food for thought and to stir the pot:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/5/472

but then again http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/84/8/1319

and also http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/55/6/1168


And my metaphors are in bad taste.

[geni]

I seem to recall that this is a PETA compain issue.

[El Greco]

Metabolic acidosis may be a concern with high protein intakes, but we are talking about HIGH protein intakes, more than 3-4 gr/kg of bodyweight/day, for extended amounts of time. Milk doesn't have a protein concentration so high that it alone would make such protein intakes probable, or even possible for the vast majority of people.

[Professor Yaffle]

Here's a paper I found looking at childhood and adolescent milk intake and osteoporosis, bone density and fractures.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/77/1/257

[linusrichard]

I'm sure we can rely on milksucks.com to provide a fair and unbiased analysis of the subject.

[paximperium]

The levels of dishonesty is disgusting.
Here is the actual journal article:
http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1998/pdf/1998-v13n02-p089.pdf
It specifically looks at a high protein diet(>30g/day) and has nothing to do with milk intake. I'm not going to go into the paper because it is simply terrible. To get the protein-urea cycle wrong and other basic science wrong so blantantly is laughable.

The Milksucks article is also garbage.
This Web page focuses on debunking a myth sold to the American public by a multibillion-dollar industry—an industry that has repeated its marketing message so often and for so long that most people now believe that dairy products are essential to bone health, despite extensive evidence to the contrary. The dairy industry has an army of dietitians, public relations consultants, and lobbyists on its payroll but does not have the evidence on its side.
Starts off with an Ad hom Conspiracy theory and paranoid aren't they?


The dairy pushers pay dietitians, doctors, and researchers to endorse dairy products, spending more than $300 million annually, just at the national level, to retain a market for their products.
Its called advertising.


The dairy industry provides free teaching materials to schools and pays sports stars, celebrities, and politicians to push an agenda based on profit, not public health.
So? They are an industry aren't they? Of course they attempt to clump those who support milk as "in on it".

Dr. Walter Willett, veteran nutrition researcher at the Harvard School of Public Health, says that calcium consumption via dairy-product intake "has become like a religious crusade," overshadowing true preventive measures such as physical exercise.
Unknown context. It sounds like a misquote.


To hear the dairy industry tell it, if you consume three glasses of milk daily, your bones will be stronger and you will be able to rest assured that osteoporosis is not in your future. Not so.
Leave the poor Straw man alone.


After examining all the available nutritional studies and evidence, Dr. John McDougall concludes: "The primary cause of osteoporosis is the high-protein diet most Americans consume today.
And how does this relate to Milk consumption? Milk isn't exactly super protein rich...I blame it on soy. Sounds like another misquote.


As one leading researcher in this area said, 'eating a high-protein diet is like pouring acid rain on your bones.'"
Really? Who is this "leading researcher"?


Remarkably enough, both clinical and population studies show that milk-drinkers tend to have more bone breaks than people who consume milk infrequently or not at all. For the dairy industry to lull unsuspecting women and children into complacency by telling them to be sure to drink more milk so that their bones will be strong may make good business sense, but it does the consumer a grave disservice.
That's nice. A citation would be nice.


Much of the world's population does not consume cow's milk, and yet most of the world does not experience the high rates of osteoporosis found in the West. In some Asian countries, for example, where consumption of dairy foods is low, fracture rates are far lower than they are in the United States and in Scandinavian countries, where consumption of dairy products is high.
Yeah...must be the reason that japanese and chinese women have such high rates of osteoporosis.


While reading this, please remember that dairy products contain no complex carbohydrates or fiber but are packed with saturated fats and cholesterol and have been linked to heart disease, cancer, Crohn's disease, and a host of childhood illnesses from asthma to diabetes.
What a big irrelevant clump of mish-mash pseudo-facts.


But Don't Take Our Word for It—Examine the Science for Yourself
Yes why don't we...oh wait we can't because there are zero citations and useless quotes.

Don't believe that garbage. Believe in the science.
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/bonehealth/index.html
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/bonehealth/chapter_7.html#OtherNutrientsImportanttoBone
http://consensus.nih.gov/2000/2000Osteoporosis111html.htm
http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/FENR/V15N1/fenrv15n1.pdf#xml=http://65.216.150.153/texis/search/pdfhi.txt?query=reduction+in+modifiable+osteoporos is&pr=CNPP&prox=page&rorder=500&rprox=500&rdfreq=500&rwfreq=500&rlead=500&rdepth=0&sufs=2&order=r&cq=&id=4592b6f90
But then all these organizations are apparently in on the conspiracy...oh well...

[Scazon]

If the stomach has to produce MORE HCl, doesn't that mean the body has to pump H+ ions OUT of the Precious Bodily Fluids, into the stomach (topologically external)... making the body more alkaline??? In the duodenum, gastric acid is neutralized by sodium bicarbonate..... making the whole thing sort of completely neutral, except immediately local to the secreting cells, which become alkaline.

In other words, just what you'd expect from moneygrubbing food faddists.

[Pidge]

Metabolic acidosis may be a concern with high protein intakes, but we are talking about HIGH protein intakes, more than 3-4 gr/kg of bodyweight/day, for extended amounts of time. Milk doesn't have a protein concentration so high that it alone would make such protein intakes probable, or even possible for the vast majority of people.

You may have heard of this stuff called "cheese".

Cheddar is about 25% protein, mozzarella about 21%.

So how many pizzas is that ;)

I think the trick to avoid bone density loss is to make sure you are eating as much calcium as you, um, excrete due to buffering against acidification, preferrably a bit more.

More food for thought:
http://www.molliekatzen.com/harvard.php?harvard=3

http://naturaldrugstore.com/html_pages/osteo_pg1.html (FoS: phosphorus, amongst others)

And boy oh boy the googling throws up conflicting information...

One study (referenced in the first link) found the calcium sumplementation increased bone density a bit initially, then levelled off.

Another study found a postive correlation between Ca and Prostate Cancer.

Gah. Bed time

[dakotajudo]

A few years back, I was a lab instructor for a human physiology course, also took a grad course in exercise physiology. I seem to remember discussing milk as a recovery drink (chocolate milk is among the best); I'm feeling kinda lazy about looking up my references, but as I remember it:

The theory is that since milk contains a high amount of protein, the stomach has to produce a large amount of HCl to digest it. This makes the body fluids acidic, and in an effort to maintain balance, the body tries to neutralize the ph by taking minerals from various parts of the system. It takes sodium first, and then calcium - from the bones.

Acid isn't strictly needed to digest protein. HCl does activate pepsin the the stomach and denatures proteins, but doesn't hydrolyze directly. There are also pancreatic enzymes in the small intestine - e.g. trypsin - that digest proteins.

The amino acid composition of proteins, after digestion, can change the body's pH; some amino acids have acid side chains, others are alkali. Hydrolysis of protein is itself pretty much neutral; there's an organic acid and an organic base on either side of the bond. But that would depend on the exact amino acid composition.

There is the concept of renal acid load associated with food. IIRC, the renal acid load of milk is close to neutral, cheese more acidic, most vegetables are alkali. Bread, however, also has a positive renal acid load.

Ultimately, it's the kidneys that excrete the excess acid or alkali. That process uses sodium as part of a bicarbonate buffer - sorry, but I'd have to dig up a textbook for the details - but the most important is the phosphate buffer. Phosphate may be taken from bone, and calcium is released as well; but how much net turnover there is will depend on diet as well. There's some flux in and out of bone regardless; bone acts as something of mineral reservoir, not just a static structure. Bone is living tissue.



I remember when my daughter was doing a science fair project in 6th grade, she took chicken bones and put them in a glass of vinegar, with a glass of water and empty glass as a control. The vinegar bones turned rubbery.

The pH of vinegar is, what, 4-5? Normal blood pH is around 7.4-6; acidosis around 7.2?

[El Greco]

You may have heard of this stuff called "cheese".

Cheddar is about 25% protein, mozzarella about 21%.

So how many pizzas is that ;)



>3-4 gr/kg of bodyweight/day is >225-300gr of protein for a 75kg individual. How many pizzas is that ?

[Aquila]

Thanks for your replies everyone.

I know that Milk Sucks is quite political so take their info with a grain of salt, but I do conclude that too much protein could be damaging.

Osteoporosis meds seem to be a controversial to me. I heard of women who took them and had fractures in their femurs before falling. I've heard they actually make the bones too brittle. Personally, I just don't know why people cant leave well alone, eat natural food and excercise.

In the very exposed Sally Field's advert for Boniva, she says that she "did all the right things" when she was younger but still got osteoporosis. I wonder what she did. I've also heard that women in India and China don't get so much osteoporosis. This implies that a plant based diet might be better.

[Professor Yaffle]

There are all sorts of factors in osteoporosis as well as diet - including genetic ones. According to wikipedia people of european and asian ancestry are of higher risk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteoporosis#Risk_factors

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

...In the very exposed Sally Field's advert for Boniva, she says that she "did all the right things" when she was younger but still got osteoporosis. I wonder what she did. I've also heard that women in India and China don't get so much osteoporosis. This implies that a plant based diet might be better.

There is a genetic component. From http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/osteoporosis.html ....
Getting older
Being small and thin
Having a family history of osteoporosis
Taking certain medicines
Being a white or Asian woman
Having osteopenia, which is low bone mass


I am now questioning the statement that osteoporosis is not seen in India or China (it may be due to access to medical care).

Plus India is a major dairy producer and user, http://www.indiadairy.com/ind_world_number_one_milk_producer.html. Ghee is a type of butter, many sauces are yogurt based, and then there is chai (tea in milk). Looking around I happened upon a pretty cool site for food:
http://www.food-india.com/

Also, another form of calcium is from bones. In China soup is consumed, and much of that soup is created by making a stock of bones from chickens, fish and beef. The stock also forms a basis for many sauces. The simmering of bones releases calcium:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_259-260/ai_n10299306/pg_7

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Osteoporosis meds seem to be a controversial to me. I heard of women who took them and had fractures in their femurs before falling. I've heard they actually make the bones too brittle. Personally, I just don't know why people cant leave well alone, eat natural food and excercise.

<snip>

My mother has been taking one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosamax) for osteopenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopenia), which at her last bone density scan had been reversed.

[Arthur Denton]

>3-4 gr/kg of bodyweight/day is >225-300gr of protein for a 75kg individual. How many pizzas is that ?

Well, a normal cheese pizza takes 200 g (not Kg) of cheese, 400g if you're a maniac (or if you eat giant pizzas) and want to have evacuation problems. Therefore, we can only presume you'd have to eat, if you're a maniac, 187,5 pizzas. One eight-slice pizza feeds me really well. I can't possibly think of someone eating four, and I won't add comments about 187,5 pizzas, or, 1500 slices of pizza :D

The chemistry of this particular "hoax", "untruth", "woo" puzzles me. I use milk because it has free calcium, to reach the needed calcium levels for my body to grow with strong bones. Ok. Then someone pointed out that milk is supposed to have protein that causes your blood to become more acidic. Ok. but ain't soy milk more dangerous then? AFAIK it has more protein than cow's milk. I have no data source for this whatsoever, I'm just curious.

[paximperium]

Osteoporosis meds seem to be a controversial to me. I heard of women who took them and had fractures in their femurs before falling. I've heard they actually make the bones too brittle. Personally, I just don't know why people cant leave well alone, eat natural food and excercise.

There isn't anything controversial about the use of boniva or the more classic fosamax. It is used because an overwhelming amount of evidence show that it works.
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001155.html

Main results

Eleven trials representing 12,068 women were included in the review.

Relative (RRR) and absolute (ARR) risk reductions for the 10 mg dose were as follows. For vertebral fractures, a significant 45% RRR was found (RR 0.55, 95% CI 0.45 to 0.67). This was significant for both primary prevention, with 45% RRR (RR 0.55, 95% CI 0.38 to 0.80) and 2% ARR, and secondary prevention with 45% RRR (RR 0.55, 95% CI 0.43 to 0.69) and 6% ARR. For non-vertebral fractures, a significant 16% RRR was found (RR 0.84, 95% CI 0.74 to 0.94). This was significant for secondary prevention, with 23% RRR (RR 0.77, 95% CI 0.64 to 0.92) and 2% ARR, but not for primary prevention (RR 0.89, 95% CI 0.76 to 1.04). There was a significant 40% RRR in hip fractures (RR 0.60, 95% CI 0.40 to 0.92), but only secondary prevention was significant with 53% RRR (RR 0.47, 95% CI 0.26 to 0.85) and 1% ARR. The only significance found for wrist was in secondary prevention, with a 50% RRR (RR 0.50 95% CI 0.34 to 0.73) and 2% ARR.

For adverse events, we found no statistically significant differences in any included study. However, observational data raise concerns regarding potential risk for upper gastrointestinal injury and, less commonly, osteonecrosis of the jaw.
Authors' conclusions

At 10 mg per day, both clinically important and statistically significant reductions in vertebral, non-vertebral, hip and wrist fractures were observed for secondary prevention ('gold' level evidence, www.cochranemsk.org). We found no statistically significant results for primary prevention, with the exception of vertebral fractures, for which the reduction was clinically important ('gold' level evidence).

[paximperium]

The chemistry of this particular "hoax", "untruth", "woo" puzzles me. I use milk because it has free calcium, to reach the needed calcium levels for my body to grow with strong bones. Ok. Then someone pointed out that milk is supposed to have protein that causes your blood to become more acidic. Ok. but ain't soy milk more dangerous then? AFAIK it has more protein than cow's milk. I have no data source for this whatsoever, I'm just curious.
Nah, its from a plant. Plants proteins are not as dangerous as animal proteins because animal proteins are poison and filled with evil dark festering pus and cruel seal clubbing, monkey brain eating and dog kicking, meat eating, planet destroying people.

...and yes, I'm being sarcastic since it is impossible to tell at times. It takes a special fanatic to consider lying as perfectly justified. Creationist, anti-vaccinations, anti-GM food, anti-sex ed. etc. are just delusional liars who seem perfectly fine with lying to support their cause. Just read these anti-milk or ultra-vegan websites for a taste of this mindset.

[dudalb]

Nah, its from a plant. Plants proteins are not as dangerous as animal proteins because animal proteins are poison and filled with evil dark festering pus and cruel seal clubbing, monkey brain eating and dog kicking, meat eating, planet destroying people.

...and yes, I'm being sarcastic since it is impossible to tell at times. It takes a special fanatic to consider lying as perfectly justified. Creationist, anti-vaccinations, anti-GM food, anti-sex ed. etc. are just delusional liars who seem perfectly fine with lying to support their cause. Just read these anti-milk or ultra-vegan websites for a taste of this mindset.

So I am not the only one who considers PETA to be a bunch of wackjobs?

BTW we have one PETA fanatic who posts here at JREF. He is really annoyning. I am surprised he has not shown up here but he pretty much sticks to politics where he posts his rants.

[Goshawk]

I am now questioning the statement that osteoporosis is not seen in India or China (it may be due to access to medical care).


It may also be due to shorter life spans. If you die from something else before osteoporosis has a chance to develop, then you simply show up in the statistics as "someone who did not get osteoporosis", but the reason is not given.

This is why it's important not to put your life on the line vis-a-vis statistics, because they can say pretty much whatever you want them to say. :D

[paximperium]

So I am not the only one who considers PETA to be a bunch of wackjobs?

BTW we have one PETA fanatic who posts here at JREF. He is really annoyning. I am surprised he has not shown up here but he pretty much sticks to politics where he posts his rants.

You talking about the "You believe in Animal Rights thread"? I give most people a short talking to and if they keep spewing garbage, I get bored and move on. PETA are controlled by nuts. Had to deal with their kin when I did basic science research in an animal lab. I'm more a fan of the SPCA.

[Arthur Denton]

I think animals shall not suffer while dying, I mean, kill them fast. But for every animal you don't eat, I'm gonna eat three, all the way. I love meat, even though it is sometimes an inefficient way to grow food. But I must agree that often PETA and Greenpeace are a tad nuts when reacting to potential threats, and they often overreact.

Milk is good for you, though.

[sanguine]

It may also be due to shorter life spans. If you die from something else before osteoporosis has a chance to develop, then you simply show up in the statistics as "someone who did not get osteoporosis", but the reason is not given.


This.

You can't suffer from osteoporosis if you die of Leishmaniasis or dysentery. I'll be interested in watching what happens with osteoporosis and similar conditions in China as the wealthier middle class expands there.

[Aquila]

Thank you for pointing out that people in the "developing" countries (do we even call them that any more?) might not live as long, and that the causes of osteoporosis might be other than nutritional (genetics, age and size). Here is one of those info pages which first allerted me to all this. I think the author of this web site got the info originally from John Robbins' book The Food Revolution.

according to http://www.livrite.com/speaker.htm

 Countries with the highest consumption of dairy products: Finland, Sweden, United States, England
 Countries with the highest rates of osteoporosis: Finland, Sweden, United States, England
 Daily calcium intake for African Americans: More than 1,000 mg
 Daily calcium intake for black South Africans: 196 mg.
 Hip fracture rate for African Americans compared to black South Africans: 9 times greater

 Calcium intake in rural China: One-half that of people in the United States
 Bone fracture rate in rural China: One-fifth that of people in the United States

 Foods that when eaten produce calcium loss through urinary excretion: Animal protein, salt, and coffee
 Amount of calcium lost in the urine of a woman after eating a hamburger: 28 milligrams
 Amount of calcium lost in the urine of a woman after drinking a cup of coffee: 2 milligrams

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

So even though India is the largest dairy producer in the world, it does not compare for consumption of dairy?

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

I just noticed that there is lots of research on osteoporosis done in China. It seems to be a concern. I found a paper (using the review tab of PubMed because there were so many papers) that is available online:
http://www.ismni.org/jmni/pdf/27/06KUNG.pdf

It is J Musculoskelet Neuronal Interact. (http://javascript<b></b>:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'J Musculoskelet Neuronal Interact.');) 2007 Jan-Mar;7(1):26-32. Links (http://javascript<b></b>:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu17396003);)

Genetic and environmental determinants of osteoporosis.

Kung AW (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Kung%20AW%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Huang QY (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Huang%20QY%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Medicine, The University of Hong Kong, Pokfulam, Hong Kong, China. awckung@hkucc.hku.hk
(sorry, goofy cut and paste). Anyway, it says
The estimated life-time risk of a Chinese woman having an osteoporotic fracture is 32%. It is projected that by 2050, more than 50% of the world’s hip fractures will occur in Asia, mainly in China.

Sorry, but I'll believe Chinese medical researchers more than some guy with a website that says "livrite" when it comes to subjects on Chinese health.

[Eos of the Eons]

omigosh, stop the presses, yet ANOTHER website full of lies and paranoia on the net. Pfft. Might as well become one of those nutty folks that never eat and expect some sort of epiphany. Nuts. Everything IS bad for you, but your body has evolved to handle the bad to get the good. Heck, might as well learn how the body actually works so that you can evaluate the nutjob sites on the net. Hey, there's good sites on the net too.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-protein-diets/AN00847

Too much of any good thing can be bad for you. Just stay away from all or nothing websites written up by fanatical doomsayers.

Lessons on website evaluations:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/webeval/webeval.html
http://lib.nmsu.edu/instruction/evalcrit.html
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/posters/chromosome/evaluate.shtml
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/evaluatinghealthinformation.html

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

...according to http://www.livrite.com/speaker.htm

 Countries with the highest consumption of dairy products: Finland, Sweden, United States, England
...

So I did a bit more digging on dairy consumption. It took a bit, but I found a paper from 2003 with a table of protein foods consumption for lots of countries:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/4048S

Now, it is sorted by meat consumption. But it does not take much to import it into a spreadsheet and just sort by milk. None of those countries made it in the top ten. The US was #29, and Finland was #15. And I was surprised that the Netherlands was not on your list, it came in at #11.

The title of the table is "Consumption of meat, milk, eggs and fish by country (kg/capita/y). (Data from FAO)"

Here is part of my spread sheet:
country_____milk
Albania_____242.2
Somalia_____187.4
Romania_____176.8
Ireland_____174.8
Kazakhstan_____174.2
Kyrgyzstan_____173.9
Ukraine_____150.4
Cyprus_____148.9
Yugoslavia,_____146.9
Costa Rica_____143.5
Netherlands_____140
Estonia_____137.7
Uzbekistan_____131.9
Uruguay_____131.6
Finland_____131.3
Belarus_____130.2
Latvia_____127.4
Bulgaria_____125.2
Russian_____124.9
Mongolia_____124.7
Turkmenistan_____122.4
Mauritania_____121.4
United Kingdom_____121.1
United Arab Emirates_____120.9
Iceland_____120.6
Dominica_____119.2
Brazil_____118.7
Sudan_____117.6
U.S._____117.3
Bosnia and Herzegovina_____116.8

(I seem to be having trouble using the table function... :mad:)

I think there is a problem with your source of information. Now, I don't care whether or not you drink milk. My younger sister has been lactose intolerant her entire life, all she has had to do was take some calcium while she was pregnant.

Milk is also not the only source of calcium. There is plenty in good soup stock (oh, and bones get soft when they are simmered for a while, I make all my own soup stock).

But I think you need to look for better information.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

So even though India is the largest dairy producer in the world, it does not compare for consumption of dairy?


Actually, India was #88:
India----47.5
(kg/capita/year)

It may produce lots of milk, but there is that whole large population in poverty thing.

[skeptigirl]

It's probably already been posted but I haven't read through all the posts. The pH of your body (blood, intracellular and intercellular fluids) is critical to all the chemical reactions that one needs to survive. Get too far out of the narrow normal pH range and you die, instantly. Your heart will stop among other things.

[Soapy Sam]

What is meant by "milk" in this context?
Full fat? Semi skimmed? Skimmed? UHT?

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

I assumed that it was anything that was milked from a domestic mammal, and processed. I assume the data included goat cheese, yak butter tea, drinking milk, yogurt, butter, ghee, any cheese, buttermilk, chai, clotted cream and on and on.

[paximperium]

I assumed that it was anything that was milked from a domestic mammal, and processed. I assume the data included goat cheese, yak butter tea, drinking milk, yogurt, butter, ghee, any cheese, buttermilk, chai, clotted cream and on and on.

You are forgetting the dangers of Human Breast Milk.

[Aquila]

There is a genetic component. From http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/osteoporosis.html ....

I am now questioning the statement that osteoporosis is not seen in India or China (it may be due to access to medical care).

Plus India is a major dairy producer and user, http://www.indiadairy.com/ind_world_number_one_milk_producer.html. Ghee is a type of butter, many sauces are yogurt based, and then there is chai (tea in milk). Looking around I happened upon a pretty cool site for food:
http://www.food-india.com/

Also, another form of calcium is from bones. In China soup is consumed, and much of that soup is created by making a stock of bones from chickens, fish and beef. The stock also forms a basis for many sauces. The simmering of bones releases calcium:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_259-260/ai_n10299306/pg_7

Funnily enough when I turned on my TV yesterday there was a Globetrekker program about India, where a young Indian/American gal was traveling around with a wok and untensils, and cooking in the street. She was also interviewing chefs and tasting their curries. Yes, Indian food uses a lot of yogurt from the cows which are of course sacred, so they don't kill them, just use the milk for food and economics.

Maybe you guys are right; osteoporosis, being mainly a woman thing, linked to hormone loss at menopause, is not a medical priority in a country where poverty and hygiene are more important. I did see one thing on the program which was surprising and illustrates another poster's wondering whether some of the diseases seen in Western countries would show up in India/Asia as they got more affluent:

There was a scene in Goa, looked like a quite affluent beach club where natives were having lunch in a big tent. They were sampling lots of different curries, some of which, as a side, included French Fries! Also, some of the people at the restaurant looked quite over-weight. Apparently India is changing.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

You are forgetting the dangers of Human Breast Milk.

Funny you should say that... someone once tried to tell me that my son's seizures were from drinking milk. I told him that a two-day old newborn was only drinking breast milk, so then he tried to blame it on me drinking cow milk.

The thing is that, while many people do have problems with milk (the genetics of whole families prevent the production of lactase), it does not mean everyone will have trouble with milk.

[Aquila]

What is meant by "milk" in this context?
Full fat? Semi skimmed? Skimmed? UHT?

Years ago, when people got their milk directly from cows on a farm, there was none of this categorization. Thankfully, Pasteur discovered the process to kill bacteria, so we then had pasteurized milk, and then (in the 1960s?) the diet was invented, which was mainly about not gaining weight by reducing fat in food.

Then we had growth hormones added to cow's food, and antibiotics so that the cows could survive close living conditions in mechanized milk factories. So now we have to read the labels to see what we're ingesting. The milk question involves much more than calcium and osteoporosis - and unfortunately any questions about the science of digestion become entangled with the politics of agriculture.

I don't think that there is any doubt that cow's milk is a very good, if not essential food for growing children, after they have been weaned from their mother's breast milk - although there are some purists who would even argue that cow's milk is naturally just for cows, not humans. But for adults, there seem to be so many health concerns which out-balance milk's calcium supply. When I was pregnant with both my children, my ob/gyn said that I could get enough calcium for both myself and baby from vegetables (I also took vitamins and suppliments).

Many people seem to be switching to soy milk now. But even that has been critisized because of the estrogen - like chemical in it, which apparently has an adverse effect on men.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

.... I did see one thing on the program which was surprising and illustrates another poster's wondering whether some of the diseases seen in Western countries would show up in India/Asia as they got more affluent:

There was a scene in Goa, looked like a quite affluent beach club where natives were having lunch in a big tent. They were sampling lots of different curries, some of which, as a side, included French Fries! Also, some of the people at the restaurant looked quite over-weight. Apparently India is changing.

My brother recently finished a two year assignment for the US Embassy in New Dehli, India. It is an incredible changing country with lots of issues that we cannot even imagine. In his nice neighborhood near the embassies water was only available for a couple hours per day. So houses have pumps to pull in as much as they can from the system which is then stored on roof top tanks. Because of the pressure, the pumps also pull in sewage. The kitchens have distillers to treat and boil the water before it is used.

A good book on India he recommended:
Being Indian : inside the real India by Pavan Varma (http://www.amazon.com/Being-Indian-Pavan-K-Varma/dp/0143033425/) (it seems to be out of print, sorry)

[Soapy Sam]

I've seen changes in body shape of people in Kazakhstan just in the last decade.
In countries with persistent , multi-generation food shortages, we might expect children's metabolism to be tuned to store as much fat as possible.
If so, it seems likekly that parts of Asia and Africa might experience far worse obesity epidemics mong youngsters than the west, if food consumption there reaches western levels.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

I've seen changes in body shape of people in Kazakhstan just in the last decade.
In countries with persistent , multi-generation food shortages, we might expect children's metabolism to be tuned to store as much fat as possible.
If so, it seems likekly that parts of Asia and Africa might experience far worse obesity epidemics mong youngsters than the west, if food consumption there reaches western levels.

That has occurred here among native peoples. These are people who were genetically tuned to survive on the food available to them (corn, some meat, and not much). Then as the world changed and they changed their eating habits to match, complications arose:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1002497

But it has nothing to do with milk or breaking bones.

[Soapy Sam]

Nothing?
The connections between genetics, metabolism and environment are so complex, I would never say "nothing" in a discussion like this. For instance- where do most Indians get their calcium? What if they switch to high dairy fat diets? (Rhetorical q. I have no idea.)
Is it credible that osteoporosis in different ethnic groups might have different causes even given identical diets because the predominant genetics handle the food differently?

The reason I asked what is meant by "milk" originally was because even elderly women in the UK these days ( a group at significant risk from osteoporosis), increasingly tend to buy skimmed milk and other low fat dairy produce, being urged to do so by doctors pushing an anti-cholesterol agenda- (My mother, aged 83 was recently urged by her GP to start taking statins). So is skimmed milk as good a defence against osteoporosis as whole milk?

[Aquila]

.....where do most Indians get their calcium?

I am presuming that it is from green vegetables. We are so accustomed with associating calcium with whiite milk, that I think we forget that it was originally made from green plant material in the cow's stomach.


The reason I asked what is meant by "milk" originally was because even elderly women in the UK these days ( a group at significant risk from osteoporosis), increasingly tend to buy skimmed milk and other low fat dairy produce, being urged to do so by doctors pushing an anti-cholesterol agenda- (My mother, aged 83 was recently urged by her GP to start taking statins). So is skimmed milk as good a defence against osteoporosis as whole milk?

Sorry I didn't address this earlier, but I'm afraid I don't know if there is difference between skim and whole milk as far as calcium. There definitely is a difference fat levels. From what I can gather,"weight bearing" excercise is the best defence against osteoporosis (as well as calcium in the diet) in post-menopausal women, plus sunlight exposure, which produces Vitamin D in the body.

[AgeGap]

122mg Calcium per 100mg Semi-Skimmed Milk. UK, from label on bottle. I think Skimmed more, Full less.
I wonder what Life expectancy versus # neck of femur rate would look like?
Countries with an aged population have a greater incident of osteoporosis.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Nothing?
The connections between genetics, metabolism and environment are so complex, I would never say "nothing" in a discussion like this. For instance- where do most Indians get their calcium? What if they switch to high dairy fat diets? (Rhetorical q. I have no idea.)
Is it credible that osteoporosis in different ethnic groups might have different causes even given identical diets because the predominant genetics handle the food differently?

My apologies. I did mention that Indians do use milk products, from yogurt to ghee. India is one of the largest milk producers in the world, but perhaps not per capita. Now did you miss where I listed India's position on global milk consumption as #88 with 47.5 kilograms/capita/year? To put it in comparison, Italy is #95 with 45.6 kilogram/capita/year. Check out the table yourself here (though it is sorted by meat consumption):
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/4048S.pdf

The reason I asked what is meant by "milk" originally was because even elderly women in the UK these days ( a group at significant risk from osteoporosis), increasingly tend to buy skimmed milk and other low fat dairy produce, being urged to do so by doctors pushing an anti-cholesterol agenda- (My mother, aged 83 was recently urged by her GP to start taking statins). So is skimmed milk as good a defence against osteoporosis as whole milk?

Skim milk has more calcium per volume than whole milk. From http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002412.htm
The calcium is not contained in the "fat portion" of milk, so removing the fat will not affect the calcium content. In fact, when you replace the fat portion that has been removed with an equal part of skimmed milk, you are actually increasing the calcium content. Therefore, one cup of skim or non-fat milk will have more calcium than one cup of whole milk because almost the entire cup of skim milk is the made up of the calcium-containing portion!


The rest of that article should help you find more foods with calcium.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

I've seen changes in body shape of people in Kazakhstan just in the last decade.
In countries with persistent , multi-generation food shortages, we might expect children's metabolism to be tuned to store as much fat as possible.
If so, it seems likekly that parts of Asia and Africa might experience far worse obesity epidemics mong youngsters than the west, if food consumption there reaches western levels.

By the way, in the http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/4048S.pdf paper, Kazakhstan is ranked #5 in dairy consumption with 174.2 kg/capita/year.

Their cuisine is very dairy oriented, from fermented milk to cheeses... and meat.

[Aquila]

By the way, in the http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/4048S.pdf paper, Kazakhstan is ranked #5 in dairy consumption with 174.2 kg/capita/year.

Their cuisine is very dairy oriented, from fermented milk to cheeses... and meat.

I hope I'm not prolonging this discussion longer than neccessary but just wanted to add a couple of things. Fermented milk, from what I've heard alters the digestability of the product, as does making it into yogurt. I know that the Balkans have always been famous for their yoghurt, and 100 year old inhabitants who eat it. The addition of the acidophilus bacteria makes it great for our intestines.

And the other thing was about ph.

I am no expert in nutrition, but one important fact I learned is that there is a difference between acidic foods and acid forming foods.

Citrus fruits, for example, are acidic-tasting, but they do not produce acid in the stomach and intestines ( I think they might even produce alkali). Protein, on the other hand, including milk protein and meat, is acid forming in the body. This is a key point in this whole argument about calcium and osteoporosis.

[Eos of the Eons]

argh. Still not introducing anything to the digestive system that wasn't already there. The pH of your food does not affect the pH of your body either. If it did, we'd all die at our first intake of even mother's milk. Heck, nobody would be left to be a mother either. Good thing we all don't have to care about the pH of the food we eat. This is a non-argument, as it is confined to the digestive tract.
http://www.annecollins.com/digestive-system/digestion-of-protein.htm
Amino acids are the main component of our body's system too.
After breakdown, the amino acids are small enough to pass through the intestinal lining into tiny veins (capillaries) in the villi (the finger-like projections on the wall of the small intestine). Once in the bloodstream, the amino acids are distributed by both red blood cells and by the liquid blood plasma to tissues throughout the body where they are used in the creation and repair of cell structures. Such is the demand for protein, the body maintains a constant balance of amino acids in the blood.



http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00175.htm
Proteins have 3 levels
of complexity. The most complex level is the 3 dimensional level. Pepsin
helps to "unwind" the proteins and breaks the bonds between the amino acids in certain places. The food passes to the small intestine and other enzymes break the bonds between different amino acids than pepsin. Because proteins are such complicated molecules it takes a long time and more than one enzyme to completely break them down into amino acids.


It does not matter what pH the food was when it got into our mouths. The protein is broken down into component parts before it gets into the rest of our body, and the pH of blood is constantly maintained.

"Acid forming foods" is a crazily coined expression that is irrelevant to the argument.

You'll have to prove that the amino acids, that our body actually wants and causes specifically to be produced by breaking down the protein before it leaves the digestive tract, somehow affects the calcium that ends up in our bloodstream. Note: It doesn't.

I would recommend that people stop using bad sources of information to "learn" things from. Please.

[Eos of the Eons]

Exess intake of protein?

From link above:

If protein requirements are exceeded by protein intake, the surplus amino acids may be converted to glucose for energy use, or converted to fatty acids and stored as adipose tissue.


Adipose tissue is fat cells, all clumped together in areas like you tummy, thighs, butt, etc. Yeah, you eat too much, you get fat cells, lots of fat cells.

[Aquila]

Thank you Eos of the Eons, from my tummy, thighs and butt.

[Eos of the Eons]

You're so so very welcome. Evaluating crazy claims can be difficult, but learning how the body works is fascinating. Our bodies are amazing. Never stop learning and trying to decipher what is really going on with it.

[Soapy Sam]

By the way, in the http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/4048S.pdf paper, Kazakhstan is ranked #5 in dairy consumption with 174.2 kg/capita/year.

Their cuisine is very dairy oriented, from fermented milk to cheeses... and meat.
Not in my experience, (meat yes, dairy no), but I probably don't see a "typical " Kazakh diet. We get lots of pasta (Yech). UHT milk , with lowfat option is getting common in towns and cities there- but I only see what comes from work catering- and RoK is such a big place , I'm unsure if there even is a single national cuisine.

We do tend to forget greens as a calcium source in the west, don't we? I know many folk who hardly eat veg at allany more- prefering fruit juice for vitamins (and extra sugar I suppose).

[TheDaver]

http://www.yourhealthbase.com/database/a80h.htm

http://www.milksucks.com/osteo.asp
First site is woo, second site is PETA. I wouldn’t worry.

[luchog]

Nah, its from a plant. Plants proteins are not as dangerous as animal proteins because animal proteins are poison and filled with evil dark festering pus and cruel seal clubbing, monkey brain eating and dog kicking, meat eating, planet destroying people.
Well, there maybe something in it, if you stretch hard enough. Amino acids in soy products are (significantly but not dramatically) more bioavailable than in animal sources.

But you'd still have to stretch that a lot to get it to fit the "acidification" woo.

[luchog]

Many people seem to be switching to soy milk now. But even that has been critisized because of the estrogen - like chemical in it, which apparently has an adverse effect on men.
Phytoestrogen harm is pure woo. Phytoestrogens are predominantly non-bioavailable in humans, and no studies have reliably shown a significant impact from dietary phytoestrogen.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/3/396
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/2/228?ck=nck
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14924634

[Aquila]

Phytoestrogen harm is pure woo. Phytoestrogens are predominantly non-bioavailable in humans, and no studies have reliably shown a significant impact from dietary phytoestrogen.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/79/3/396
http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/2/228?ck=nck
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14924634

I'm glad you're keeping abreast of this.

[Old Bob]

Calcium from cow's milk? don't think we get much as it is the wrong polarity so someone said. I do know we get most calcium from meat and veg. Unfortunately super phospate ties up many minerals in our food and is the main reason for osteoporosis. Mineral vit. pills are often the wrong polarity and go straight through us. Minerals on garden,plants take them up and change polarity then we get them as nature intended, Think chelated means our bodies will except because of the polarity.

[paximperium]

Calcium from cow's milk? don't think we get much as it is the wrong polarity so someone said. I do know we get most calcium from meat and veg. Unfortunately super phospate ties up many minerals in our food and is the main reason for osteoporosis. Mineral vit. pills are often the wrong polarity and go straight through us. Minerals on garden,plants take them up and change polarity then we get them as nature intended, Think chelated means our bodies will except because of the polarity.

You have no idea what you're talking about do you?
"Polarity"? "Super Phosphate"? Where do you dig this stuff out from?

[Old Bob]

You have no idea what you're talking about do you?
"Polarity"? "Super Phosphate"? Where do you dig this stuff out from?

From a very long time of study on my father's questions on cattle health and what they lack because we didn't know what the effects of superphosphate were. A smart man called Percy Weston (long dead) developed a cancer cure (his writings are on the net) based on phosphate problems. Eg. Every spring hundreds of cattle die of bloat in Victoria (Aus) my father thought they lacked mineral because they chewed the trees, he fed extra magnesium and dropped our loses by some 90%. The reason that the cattle got bloat was the s. phosphate tied up the minerals and released fluoride in the spring grasses causing one type of gastric bacteria to die and another type to flourish creating gas that can kill the animal. Ok back to the calcium, it's all tied in and the over view is not what we are taught. Polarity of mineral has to be right for our bodies to except. Maybe I think different to you.

[Old Bob]

You have no idea what you're talking about do you?
"Polarity"? "Super Phosphate"? Where do you dig this stuff out from?

From a very long time of study on my father's questions on cattle health and what they lack because we didn't know what the effects of superphosphate were. A smart man called Percy Weston (long dead) developed a cancer cure (his writings are on the net) based on phosphate problems. Eg. Every spring hundreds of cattle die of bloat in Victoria (Aus) my father thought they lacked mineral because they chewed the trees, he fed extra magnesium and dropped our loses by some 90%. The reason that the cattle got bloat was the s. phosphate tied up the minerals and released fluoride in the spring grasses causing one type of gastric bacteria to die and another type to flourish creating gas that can kill the animal. Ok back to the calcium, it's all tied in and the over view is not what we are taught. Polarity of mineral has to be right for our bodies to except. Maybe I think different to you.

[jon]

The levels of dishonesty is disgusting.
Here is the actual journal article:
http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1998/pdf/1998-v13n02-p089.pdf
It specifically looks at a high protein diet(>30g/day) and has nothing to do with milk intake. I'm not going to go into the paper because it is simply terrible. To get the protein-urea cycle wrong and other basic science wrong so blantantly is laughable.

Mis-citing a *Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine* article has to be a new low... The Journal's 'peer review' process doesn't even seem to ensure proper reporting of methods and results (http://holfordwatch.info/2008/09/08/the-holford-low-gl-diet-trial/).

I mean, surely they could have picked an article in a better journal to misrepresent :D

[pgwenthold]

Calcium from cow's milk? don't think we get much as it is the wrong polarity so someone said.

Wrong polarity?

What do you mean "wrong polarity"? They are calcium cations (dications, to be specific), just like you will find calcium in almost every other condensed phase source.

[Old Bob]

Wrong polarity?

What do you mean "wrong polarity"? They are calcium cations (dications, to be specific), just like you will find calcium in almost every other condensed phase source.

AS I understand everything down in the particle world has either + or - charge. Ok not everything. Neutrons don't have a charge. WE need minerals that have a - charge to stick to our + electrons. No doubt some one who has had schooling will say "not quite right" Perhaps they can explain it clearer. Plants change minerals from + to - so as I said earlier, feed the plants minerals that we need then we can use them. Plants eg. lettuce can look good but be lacking in the things we need because the minerals are not present or are tied up by super phospate.

[Professor Yaffle]

AS I understand everything down in the particle world has either + or - charge. Ok not everything. Neutrons don't have a charge. WE need minerals that have a - charge to stick to our + electrons. No doubt some one who has had schooling will say "not quite right" Perhaps they can explain it clearer. Plants change minerals from + to - so as I said earlier, feed the plants minerals that we need then we can use them. Plants eg. lettuce can look good but be lacking in the things we need because the minerals are not present or are tied up by super phospate.

:confused:

Where do you get this stuff from???

[pgwenthold]

AS I understand everything down in the particle world has either + or - charge. Ok not everything. Neutrons don't have a charge. WE need minerals that have a - charge to stick to our + electrons. No doubt some one who has had schooling will say "not quite right" Perhaps they can explain it clearer. Plants change minerals from + to -

OK, that makes things a lot more clear. You don't have a clue.

You should come to my chemistry lecture on Thursday. You might learn something about the structure of the atom.

[Hellbound]

pgwenthold:

Actually, if he has positive electrons, you may not want him anywhere near your location...

:D

[pgwenthold]

pgwenthold:

Actually, if he has positive electrons, you may not want him anywhere near your location...

:D

Oh don't worry. Positrons won't last long in a universe full of matter.

[Hellbound]

Oh don't worry. Positrons won't last long in a universe full of matter.

I'm just a-feared he may have negative protons to go with...

I wonder if he has a magnetic bubble?

[tyr_13]

First site is woo, second site is PETA. I wouldn’t worry.

PETA level woo is very woo indeed.

[tyr_13]

Why does so much woo come back to anti-matter to work? And not just anti matter but magic kinds that only booms out of existence some things and not others?

[Hellbound]

Woo relies on areas of science that are poorly understood by the layman. That allows them to use lots of scientificy words like "anti-matter" and "quantum" that make them sound like they actually have a clue, while removing the need for them to actually understand any real science (cause that's, like, hard, you know?).

[pgwenthold]

Why does so much woo come back to anti-matter to work? And not just anti matter but magic kinds that only booms out of existence some things and not others?

To be fair, Bob hasn't been the one to bring up anti-matter, at least not explicitly. He is just so clueless that that he doesn't realize that is what he is saying.

[Old Bob]

Here we go again, "no understanding, layman,you don't have a clue." Ego seems to grow in those who have letters after there name."How can I be wrong someone told me at Uni." That lecturer was molded by the system and his pay check reflects how well he steers the students to fit the future money trains. (school, work struggle save get sick and old, hand wealth back to medical system then die) We(most) have been led down the garden path, with twisted half truths. Can you beat cancer? I have. Another thing about milk is homogenised. Want your arteries blocked? The fat particles are broken up so small that they slip into our blood streams before our stomach juices has time to process and break down the fat. And if young calves are fed on parsterized milk they die because the heated milk loses all its vitamins. Good stuff that white water you buy in plastic, leaching pcb and false estrogen. Is that taught at Uni.? TRY 13 may just be right we are expanding, matter is constantly created.

[Emerson Street]

Here we go again, "no understanding, layman,you don't have a clue." Ego seems to grow in those who have letters after there name."How can I be wrong someone told me at Uni." That lecturer was molded by the system and his pay check reflects how well he steers the students to fit the future money trains. (school, work struggle save get sick and old, hand wealth back to medical system then die) We(most) have been led down the garden path, with twisted half truths. Can you beat cancer? I have. Another thing about milk is homogenised. Want your arteries blocked? The fat particles are broken up so small that they slip into our blood streams before our stomach juices has time to process and break down the fat. And if young calves are fed on parsterized milk they die because the heated milk loses all its vitamins. Good stuff that white water you buy in plastic, leaching pcb and false estrogen. Is that taught at Uni.? TRY 13 may just be right we are expanding, matter is constantly created.

Do you have a version of this post in English?

[paximperium]

Here we go again, "no understanding, layman,you don't have a clue." Ego seems to grow in those who have letters after there name."How can I be wrong someone told me at Uni."
As opposed to an uneducated making statements with no evidence and absolutely no understanding?

That lecturer was molded by the system and his pay check reflects how well he steers the students to fit the future money trains. (school, work struggle save get sick and old, hand wealth back to medical system then die) We(most) have been led down the garden path, with twisted half truths.
What a load of utter paranoid deluded garbage? Man you are very proud of being uneducated, ignorant and paranoid aren't you?


Can you beat cancer? I have.
How? Please provide evidence.


Another thing about milk is homogenised. Want your arteries blocked? The fat particles are broken up so small that they slip into our blood streams before our stomach juices has time to process and break down the fat.
Fat is not digested in the stomach but are broken down into very very small tiny fat globules by bile before being broken down into smaller and smaller fatty acids to be SURPRISE slip into you blood capillaries in your gut for absorption.


And if young calves are fed on parsterized milk they die because the heated milk loses all its vitamins. Good stuff that white water you buy in plastic, leaching pcb and false estrogen.
Evidence of any of your wild claims?


Is that taught at Uni.?
Why should it? Where did you read it from? Let me guess, the Internet?


TRY 13 may just be right we are expanding, matter is constantly created.
In english please, that was not coherent.

[Eos of the Eons]

The fat particles are broken up so small that they slip into our blood streams before our stomach juices has time to process and break down the fat.

ROFLMAO!!! Not even a basic understanding of human anatomy and the digestive tract.

nd if young calves are fed on parsterized milk they die because the heated milk loses all its vitamins.

No they don't die if fed pasteurized milk. Where do you get this stuff???? Please offer up your sources of information. PLEASE.

[Old Bob]

ROFLMAO!!! Not even a basic understanding of human anatomy and the digestive tract.



No they don't die if fed pasteurized milk. Where do you get this stuff???? Please offer up your sources of information. PLEASE.

Have you had a rural upbringing, have you had hands on? And yes they will die on pasteurized milk. Paximperium I may not had the schooling you have had, but I don't have tunnel vison and my info in this case came from the strugle of life, not the internet. Eos seeing you know so much please explain how fat colects on artries and the difference between LDL and HDL . Also how I beat cancer, sorry have no "understanding of human anatomy"

[Eos of the Eons]

Have you had a rural upbringingI suppose my college education COULD be inferior to your self-learned rural experiences. Thing is, tit for tat semantics are really just going to lead us into ridiculous circular arguments.

Please do go on and tell us how you beat cancer. By drinking unpasteurized milk perhaps? :rolleyes:

Then show us the study where calfs died drinking unpasteurized milk. Your personal anecdote is hugely unconvincing for a variety of reasons.

Why don't you demonstrate how fat leaks into "artries" from the stomach???

Why don't you know that stomach juices don't process or break down fats?

[Old Bob]

Snarl mail seems to be how it is, my cousin owns huge dairies and knowledge on calf rearing is handed down, they don't even bother with a computer. Her husband buys his port by the oak cask, life is pretty creamy for them. (pun) Don't you think they would know. Some body has to know things to teach the teachers and it's not all on a bloody computer. Think I don't know about bile and fat? ok think what you like. Hope some of you don't speak to your partners like you do here, divorce would be on the cards.

[Wildy]

AS I understand everything down in the particle world has either + or - charge. Ok not everything. Neutrons don't have a charge.

There are more particles then neutrons that have no charge. Atoms for example have no charge.


WE need minerals that have a - charge to stick to our + electrons.

Riiiight... *backs away slowly*

No doubt some one who has had schooling will say "not quite right" Perhaps they can explain it clearer.

I guess if someone could actually understand what the hell it was you were trying to say. Maybe you should try 'Strine. There are plenty of us on here who speak that.

Plants change minerals from + to - so as I said earlier, feed the plants minerals that we need then we can use them. Plants eg. lettuce can look good but be lacking in the things we need because the minerals are not present or are tied up by super phospate.

I have no clue what the hell it is that you are trying to say here. I was under the impression that minerals were electrically neutral?

Why do plants change minerals from + to -? And why do we need only - minerals?

Hope some of you don't speak to your partners like you do here, divorce would be on the cards.

So? You can attack people who disagree with you as much as you like. It still doesn't mean that their criticism goes away.

[Eos of the Eons]

Don't you think they would know

Don't we think that they know what? Did they perform some huge double blinded experiment with control groups to prove their story?? Just how many calves died then? Did all the calves get the same exact amount of milk at the same times, and the half that died were provably only fed pasteurized milk and the other half non-pasteurized milk? Where is this grand study published then? We should all get to marvel and examine this great study that PROVES pasteurized milk is soooo nutrient deficient for SOME reason (a reason that should be quite explained in the study discussion) that it won't support calves anymore, even though the nutrient loss was so negligible? What else could have changed about the milk that would kill the calves? It is now able to cause them sudden brain cancer because it was heated but not boiled???

We snarl because you spout a bunch of, well, crazy stuff that is just plain wrong on so many levels, but haven't demonstrated any willingness to learn how something actually works.

You've only taught us that you have no clue about human anatomy, so why should we just believe anything else you say/write?

You've come to the wrong forum for that, baby. Convincing others of your idea/hypothesis/information involves using the tools and methods of science to PROVE a point or process. Evidence speaks, not anecdotes.

You can say that the cows jump over the moon, but we don't have bow down to your strange view of the world just because you think you're keen on cows jumping over the moon. Show us how the cow jumped that high, and only then will we take you any way seriously. If you can't show us anything but then turn around and tell us that you think the moon is also made out of green cheese (like that is some sort of life changing epiphany we should just all eat up), well, then what exactly do you expect from us??

[Old Bob]

This is like 'Ground Hog Day" Very few calves are fed pasteurized but it was found out years ago that if they were it killed them because of heating destroying vitamins, as for studies, this is Australia, we don't do that down on the farm. What a different world we live in. As for not belonging on this forum,mybe your right but then what interesting info. have you told us. These forums should be interesting and a little fun, something has gone wrong.

[Professor Yaffle]

Pasteurization safely decreases pathogens in all types of milk fed to young calves. Recently, University of California at Davis researchers (Jamaluddin et al., 1996) reported that calves fed pasteurized milk had fewer days with diarrhea and pneumonia than calves fed nonpasteurized milk. Also, calves fed pasteurized milk had greater average weight gain than calves fed nonpasteurized milk. Calves fed pasteurized milk grossed an extra $8.13 per head, attributed to reduced health complications and treatment costs, when compared with calves fed nonpasteurized milk.

http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_d/d-208.html

[lionking]

In case members have not already worked this out, please do not treat any of Old Bob's posts as being anywhere near accurate (or articulate for that matter). For the record, Australia spends hundreds of millions of dollars on veterinary science, as we should being a major producer of livestock. We do excellent science in this area, and I absolutely resent the comment that we live in a "different world". I really think you should find another forum Old Bob. You are yet to post anything of interest, use or veracity.

[Wildy]

This is like 'Ground Hog Day" Very few calves are fed pasteurized but it was found out years ago that if they were it killed them because of heating destroying vitamins, as for studies, this is Australia, we don't do that down on the farm. What a different world we live in. As for not belonging on this forum,mybe your right but then what interesting info. have you told us. These forums should be interesting and a little fun, something has gone wrong.

Good point. Australia doesn't need science. That's why we don't have any science type guys on our money, unless you exclude David Unaipon.

Or have any Nobel laureates, unless you exclude; Barry Marshall, J. Robin Warren, Peter Doherty, John Warcup Cornforth, Patrick White, John Carew Eccles, Sir Frank Macfarlane Burnet, Sir Howard Florey, William Henry Bragg and William Lawrence Bragg.

Nor have we invented anything as this page here shows. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_inventions)

Yep. Us Australians don't need no stinking science.

[lionking]

Wildy, I'm just so glad that you have pointed out to the world that Australia is responsible for the Esky and box wine. :) I mean otherwise people would have thought we have made no contribution to civilisation.

[MarkCorrigan]

This might just be the most entertaining thing I've read all week.....In my defence, most of what I've been reading was about Khrushchev, so it's not the most lighthearted topic.

Incidentally, I don't think you have to worry about the rest of the world thinking Aus is behind in terms of vetinary treatment lionking, since most of the time if you ask people about Australia one of the first things they will mention is sheep.:p

Now, here's hoping OldBob will come back... :popcorn1

[lionking]

This might just be the most entertaining thing I've read all week.....In my defence, most of what I've been reading was about Khrushchev, so it's not the most lighthearted topic.

Incidentally, I don't think you have to worry about the rest of the world thinking Aus is behind in terms of vetinary treatment lionking, since most of the time if you ask people about Australia one of the first things they will mention is sheep.:p

Now, here's hoping OldBob will come back... :popcorn1
Why must you northern hemisphereans continue to mistake us for New Zealanders.:)

[MarkCorrigan]

Why must you northern hemisphereans continue to mistake us for New Zealanders.:)

I thought Aus had a lot of sheep as well?

I mean christ, not as many as NZ per person, but I was led to believe by my somewhat hazy recollection of A-Level Geography about economics and rural v city dwelling that Aus was one of the places that was farming intensive for an MEDC, with a large portion of that being sheep....

Ah well. My memory isn't the best. I tend to treat it like a rough guide to events at best.:p

[lionking]

Oh yes we have plenty of sheep, but we don't really give them same level of...ahem.....affection as do our trans-Tasman cousins.

[Old Bob]

http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_d/d-208.html

Wow, I send that on to my cousin, seems that we got that wrong. More fuel for lionking. Perhaps the calves died from contamination ruther than pasteurize, anyway I was wrong.

[MarkCorrigan]

Wow, I send that on to my cousin, seems that we got that wrong. More fuel for lionking. Perhaps the calves died from contamination ruther than pasteurize, anyway I was wrong.

ARGH!! Time and space distoring...real.....ty...we..ning.....mus..t....g e....shuttl..bef..t....late!

(Time and space distorting, reality weakening. Must get to shuttle before it's too late)

ETA: ignore the "wise"crack I made there. Good on you for recognising where you were mistaken.

If only some other people around here could do that.

[lionking]

On the contrary. I am pleased you have acknowledged something you thought was true is in fact not. I hope you question some of the other things you have posted that members (and far more than just me) have said are simply incorrect.

I am pretty "old" too Bob, at least to my kids, but have changed my position on quite a number of things simply because of this forum.

[Eos of the Eons]

Awww, just in time to spare my claws...

*retracts claws*

I've learned to ask questions and learn from others here. Others have learned that I hate misinformation, especially when it is posted as fact over and over again when it's not anywhere near factual.

Wow, I send that on to my cousin, seems that we got that wrong.
You've gained a lot more respect already by just that one post. Now discussion can ensue. It's always more fun when people don't just assert they are right no matter what the actual evidence shows.

Welcome to the forum padawan!

[pgwenthold]

Here we go again, "no understanding, layman,you don't have a clue." Ego seems to grow in those who have letters after there name."How can I be wrong someone told me at Uni."


Um, you certainly don't need to have letters after your name to know the basics of atomic structure. I mean, it's material that eighth graders (in the US) can handle.

Then again, I don't have to rely on what someone told me. The problem with the internet is that no one knows you are a dog. Or a scientist who has spent their life studying the properties of ions. So I have an idea of what ions are like, not because someone told me because I have studied their properties myself.


That lecturer was molded by the system and his pay check reflects how well he steers the students to fit the future money trains. (school, work struggle save get sick and old, hand wealth back to medical system then die) We(most) have been led down the garden path, with twisted half truths. Can you beat cancer? I have. Another thing about milk is homogenised. Want your arteries blocked? The fat particles are broken up so small that they slip into our blood streams before our stomach juices has time to process and break down the fat. And if young calves are fed on parsterized milk they die because the heated milk loses all its vitamins.


I'm glas that you now recognize how wrong you are on this.


Good stuff that white water you buy in plastic, leaching pcb and false estrogen. Is that taught at Uni.?


Dude, not only is that _taught_ at the university (ok, not the "false estrogen" thing, whatever that is) but things that leach into water from plastic (what plastics are using pcbs? Weren't they mostly used as flame retardants (I know that's what PBBs are for); PCBs have been banned for a long time), the dangers of things like PCBs are DISCOVERED at universities!

It wasn't calf farmers who figured it out. It was honest to god scientists.

The same scientists who you are wont to dismiss.

[Old Bob]

Back again, bad day. My old mum fell over, broken hip, 93 and no pills or trouble till today. Anyway back to milk related plastic. The milk containers use here is mainly cheap plastic with a 2 rating. They leach what I would call false estrogen and doesn't that pete plastic realise pcb's? My old mother must be suffering from bone degeneration which I would blame the super phospate tying up minerals and her ability to absorb calcium. These problems take a long time,but worn out soils don't help. One of the reasons we eat wild deer as they graze in the virgin bush.

[lionking]

Bob, did you not read what Eon and I posted? We congratulated you because you looked at a claim you made, realised it was wrong and in the spirit of skepticism, admitted it and learnt a lesson.

Do you not also realise that posting claims without any substantiation at all, like plastic milk containers leeching "false estrogen" undoes all of that? I am trying to be polite, but if you keep this up, perhaps this forum is not for you.

[Old Bob]

Lionking you pat me on the back then claim I'm wrong again, isn't it correct that plastic containers have a number rating on how stable the plastic is, from 1 to 10.I have been told that food grade plastic drink containers below 5 leech and break down. As we all know the plastic doesn't go away and Greenpeace makes a lot of noise about the hormone problems. Why do you think bottled water has a use by date?,water gets to old.? No the cheap no. 2 container leeches. Health people like Helga Clarke worry about plastic wraps breaking down in micro-waves. She may have some standing that you would believe. Isn't this about milk and health problems. You have set your self up as judge and jury whether I'm right or wrong. My x son in law who works for a drilling com. in Brisbane some years ago had bio suits to work in because they were drilling on a old dump site and the poison levels were high with PCBs supposedly from plastic. If the list thinks this is bull just tell me and I will go. A vote of 3 or more will do. And lionking only gets one vote.

[Hokulele]

Lionking you pat me on the back then claim I'm wrong again, isn't it correct that plastic containers have a number rating on how stable the plastic is, from 1 to 10.I have been told that food grade plastic drink containers below 5 leech and break down. As we all know the plastic doesn't go away and Greenpeace makes a lot of noise about the hormone problems. Why do you think bottled water has a use by date?,water gets to old.? No the cheap no. 2 container leeches. Health people like Helga Clarke worry about plastic wraps breaking down in micro-waves. She may have some standing that you would believe. Isn't this about milk and health problems. You have set your self up as judge and jury whether I'm right or wrong. My x son in law who works for a drilling com. in Brisbane some years ago had bio suits to work in because they were drilling on a old dump site and the poison levels were high with PCBs supposedly from plastic. If the list thinks this is bull just tell me and I will go. A vote of 3 or more will do. And lionking only gets one vote.


What the heck?

No, just no. No. Seriously, no.

http://www.ides.com/resources/plastic-recycling-codes.asp

[lionking]

Look nobody wants you to go, just to post stuff with some evidence. Do you know how to post links? Something from Helga Clarke or Greenpeace about this issue so that a debate can proceed? Otherwise all we have is "this is right because (for whatever reason) I say so". And remember, the onus is on the person making the claim to try to prove it.

[Wildy]

If the list thinks this is bull just tell me and I will go. A vote of 3 or more will do. And lionking only gets one vote.

To be honest I don't care what you do. The only thing I would like to see you do more of is provide sources. You do claim quite a bit of stuff but when asked for sources go on about how you can't find them on a computer.

Doesn't do well for your point mate.

[MarkCorrigan]

To be honest I don't care what you do. The only thing I would like to see you do more of is provide sources. You do claim quite a bit of stuff but when asked for sources go on about how you can't find them on a computer.

Doesn't do well for your point mate.

Thirded.

I am especially curious about positive electrons....

[Old Bob]

No I haven't learnt to post links, but most of you people are good at finding stuff like Hokulele and the plastic number system. No mention on how the stuff breaks down and into what. The trouble with stuff one finds in books and other sources is that I don't keep it, just commit it to memory. Hence the odd mix up but the general trend has some truth. So from now on will make a note of sources to add to what I yap about. One bit on superphospate can be found on Percy Weston cancer cure (Google) will check now to make sure its still up. Yes lots their, I knew Percy Weston, he often called to see my father and he was a tough old guy,never wore boots, could walk on broken glass.

[lionking]

The FAQ section explains how to post links. Just trying to help.

[Professor Yaffle]

No I haven't learnt to post links, but most of you people are good at finding stuff like Hokulele and the plastic number system. No mention on how the stuff breaks down and into what. The trouble with stuff one finds in books and other sources is that I don't keep it, just commit it to memory. Hence the odd mix up but the general trend has some truth. So from now on will make a note of sources to add to what I yap about. One bit on superphospate can be found on Percy Weston cancer cure (Google) will check now to make sure its still up. Yes lots their, I knew Percy Weston, he often called to see my father and he was a tough old guy,never wore boots, could walk on broken glass.

You do know that not everything you find on the internet is true?

[ZirconBlue]

I, too, want to express my respect to Old Bob for actually admitting to an error and accepting correction. Too many people, on this forum and elsewhere, skeptic or not, seem unwilling to admit to errors. Kudos for that, Old Bob.

I'd also like to add a comment on the plastic labeling numbers. Hokulele's link doesn't discuss "safety" or "quality" of plastics, because that's not what the number codes are for. They are there simply to identify the base resins used, to help with sorting and recycling materials. If I remember correctly, it's the number 1 (PET) plastics that are under fire recently for leaching undesirable compounds into their contents, but this has to do with their chemical composition, not whether the number is higher or lower.

[ZirconBlue]

You do know that not everything you find on the internet is true?


Well, you posted this on the internet, so I guess I have to believe you.



Wait.

[Eos of the Eons]

I just wonder why Bob stumbled across us here at a skeptical site? This may be in the welcome forum or something. It seems he is used to the plain old usual misinformed discussions found easily elsewhere with folks that would just erupt into rants about how plastics and milk kill and maim all life forms on the planet, the unfounded freaky scary stories rushing into a thread where hysterics run amock with no such thing as a request for some substantiated information?

If you've come here to just discuss crazy stuff, then you've come to the wrong place. If you've come here to learn and become used to an informed discussion, then you're in the right place. Get used to being asked about why you post the information that you do. Don't get into a flap if you seem to be getting attacked, just know there are very educated folks here that can tell you why you are being questioned.

This is a place for cold hard logic too, not warm fuzzy polite conversation alone. Most of us here love to banter, and bat the ball back and forth. If you do not yet, then you can learn or not. Really, this is up to you to decide to get used to. Otherwise, there are many forums out there with many other people who aren't used to this kind of discourse, and just sit around putting down things (like plastic) without really having to think about it.

We wouldregret your decision not to stay, but also don't want you to feel picked on. I hope this helps to explain the atmosphere here.

[Old Bob]

Eos, i enjoy a little banter too. Have just contacted a long lost cousin who grows organic tomatoes etc. near Melbourne, he has the same opinion on superphospate being the problem on health and causing bone deterioration in the food chain. So my wild theories are not alone. As for finding this thread, do you think I'm gate crashing on the "educated folks here"(Quoting Eos) well we all know different things. Has any body studied Percy Weston info yet.? Would love to hear feed back, also about the use by date on bottled water.

[paximperium]

Eos, i enjoy a little banter too. Have just contacted a long lost cousin who grows organic tomatoes etc. near Melbourne, he has the same opinion on superphospate being the problem on health and causing bone deterioration in the food chain.
So? What is the relevance of his tomato growing and his expertise to comment on superphosphate?


So my wild theories are not alone.
Look up the Logical Fallacy, Argumentum ad Populum.


As for finding this thread, do you think I'm gate crashing on the "educated folks here"(Quoting Eos) well we all know different things.
True...and many people believe in false things.


Has any body studied Percy Weston info yet.? Would love to hear feed back,
Don't know who this person is. Google only returns the name "Percy West" as a minor character in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Do you have a link?


also about the use by date on bottled water.
What about it? How does this relate to the use dates on tin cans or carton boxes?

[Old Bob]

Pax. As you well know the water doesn't age so why the use by date seeing it's in a nice no.2 healthy plastic bottle, also you must have a different Google or you left off Percy Weston and typed Percy West. The tomato organically grown can't have superphospate and the fact that my cousin found out how bad it ties up the minerals with out my help. And you are right "many people believe in false things" The Percy Weston site has lots of articles so sorry can't forward a link.

[Wildy]

As you well know the water doesn't age so why the use by date seeing it's in a nice no.2 healthy plastic bottle[.]

Perhaps they are required by law to have a use by date of some sort on their bottles of bottled water.

And what the hell is a "no. 2 healthy plastic bottle"?

also you must have a different Google or you left off Percy Weston and typed Percy West.

Well if the person is Australian then it would depend on which country's Google you are using.

The tomato organically grown can't have superphospate and the fact that my cousin found out how bad it ties up the minerals with out my help.

Why can't the organically grown tomato have superphosphate? And how does it tie up minerals?

The Percy Weston site has lots of articles so sorry can't forward a link.

Why not? You know the site, you could just post a link to it here.

[Mongrel]

Pax. As you well know the water doesn't age so why the use by date seeing it's in a nice no.2 healthy plastic bottle

Water can get 'old' and get a flat taste when kept in a sealed container (plastic, glass or pottery).

Lot's of other stuff that stores better than water also have use by dates - rice, flour, pickles are the easy ones. Flour comes in paper bags and if kept in a cool dry place will be good for years to come, coffee in jars or cans will keep for ages if left sealed although breaking the seal will allow moisture in. Honey in jars may crystallise over time but a quick warm through in a saucepan of hot water soon sorts that out.

All of these items will have a use by date as well, it's required by law.

[SkeptiChick]

You mean this Percy Weston? http://www.phosadd.com/support%20evidence/weston.htm
The woo-ist who thinks you can "cure cancer" by feeding people a "low phosphate diet"? Who "invented" http://www.alternativehealth.com.au/Product/percy.htm (Percy's Powder) which is nothing more than your ordinary run of the mill multi vitamin that he claims will "correct the acid-base imbalance" of the foods you eat?

Yeah um. If the only support for what you're saying comes from this scam artist, no one here will take you seriously. Try finding an actual scientific study or two to back up your claims.

[Old Bob]

You mean this Percy Weston? http://www.phosadd.com/support%20evidence/weston.htm
The woo-ist who thinks you can "cure cancer" by feeding people a "low phosphate diet"? Who "invented" http://www.alternativehealth.com.au/Product/percy.htm (Percy's Powder) which is nothing more than your ordinary run of the mill multi vitamin that he claims will "correct the acid-base imbalance" of the foods you eat?

Yeah um. If the only support for what you're saying comes from this scam artist, no one here will take you seriously. Try finding an actual scientific study or two to back up your claims.

Percy Weston has long gone and you degrade a fine old man who fixed many people, just keep doing what your doing and you will get more of the same. He gave his product away and I have witnessed him in his 90-s driving a long distant to give a cancer victim friend help. But she like you stayed with the chemo and died. I will leave this thread now because I'm just spinning my wheels. Cheers

[daSkeptic]

Percy Weston has long gone and you degrade a fine old man who fixed many people, just keep doing what your doing and you will get more of the same. He gave his product away and I have witnessed him in his 90-s driving a long distant to give a cancer victim friend help. But she like you stayed with the chemo and died. I will leave this thread now because I'm just spinning my wheels. Cheers

SkeptiChick didn't degrade anyone. Mr. Weston degraded himself by spouting unverifiable woo. If you disagree and think he did legitimate work, please cite a reputable source.

[SkeptiChick]

Percy Weston has long gone and you degrade a fine old manI'm not the one who bilked people out of money by claiming that a multivitamin would cure cancer. who fixed many peopleFixed? How exactly does one "fix" a person? Unless you mean "fixed" like when people refer to neutering their pets... just keep doing what your doingWhat am I doing? and you will get more of the same.Same what? He gave his product awayNo, his product was sold (and is still for almost $40 a bottle) for and I have witnessed him in his 90-s driving a long distant to give a cancer victim friend help.This does not show any scientific support for his claims. But she like you stayed with the chemo and died.So... I have cancer, underwent chemo, and died? I'm dead? I will leave this thread now because I'm just spinning my wheels. CheersYes, you are spinning your wheels because you refuse to cite any credible evidence (you know what evidence is, right?) of your claims.