The Wheel or the Computer? Which one has done more for humans?

[applecorped]

Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?

[applecorped]

Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?

While the wheel has been the standard bearer for millenia, I believe the computer will win out in the end.

[NewtonTrino]

Wheel.

[PixyMisa]

Computer.

[Faolan]

Wheel. It promote actually interacting physically with the world. It provides a way to efficient harvest, make things mobile, etc.
While the computer has helped, and continues to help in many ways. It promotes detached socializing which will eventually cause more social anxiety and interaction issues. Furthermore, should something ever happen to the electricity we have come to reply on, at least the wheel will still be there, even is we have to carve it the "old fashioned" way.

[applecorped]

Wheel. It promote actually interacting physically with the world. It provides a way to efficient harvest, make things mobile, etc.
While the computer has helped, and continues to help in many ways. It promotes detached socializing which will eventually cause more social anxiety and interaction issues. Furthermore, should something ever happen to the electricity we have come to reply on, at least the wheel will still be there, even is we have to carve it the "old fashioned" way.

The wheel should be King. It isn't. It has been taken over by the computer with all its faults. Computers will exponentially insinuate itself into our lives.

[Faolan]

Either way, we still use both... for now

[shadron]

Wheel. ... Furthermore, should something ever happen to the electricity we have come to reply on, at least the wheel will still be there, even is we have to carve it the "old fashioned" way.

Been reading too much SM Sterling, I see. What if something happens to all the grease?

[PixyMisa]

What the value of pi changes so that circles are no longer round?

What then? :eek:

[Ysidro]

Been reading too much SM Sterling, I see. What if something happens to all the grease?

THen we starve to death because that means there's no more plants or animals?

[PogoPedant]

It promotes detached socializing which will eventually cause more social anxiety and interaction issues.

Although I've been in the IT industry for less than a decade, I've noticed that the typical computer nerd is disappearing. With the "detached socializing" you get situations where people who would otherwise be isolated in their mother's basements get social training in non-threatening environments. The end result is more socialized geeks. It's popular to decry modern technology, but kids today socialize constantly and with a far wider social circle than their parents could ever hope.

ETA: That being said, everything the computer has ever done for us has the wheel as a prerequisite, so the wheel is absolutely the king.

[gdnp]

In that the computer would have been impossible without the wheel, but the wheel does not rely on computers at all, the wheel wins hands down.

[Jimbo07]

In that the computer would have been impossible without the wheel, but the wheel does not rely on computers at all, the wheel wins hands down.

Well, in that case, the simple machines win (as argued in one point here, The Lever and the Inclined Plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine) :D)

Seriously. This isn't a question that can be reasonably asked. The full development of neither computer nor wheel has occurred. Perhaps computers enable the invention of the grogznoxaplorx. What would civilization ever have done without that?

[gdnp]

Well, in that case, the simple machines win (as argued in one point here, The Lever and the Inclined Plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine) :D)

Seriously. This isn't a question that can be reasonably asked. The full development of neither computer nor wheel has occurred. Perhaps computers enable the invention of the grogznoxaplorx. What would civilization ever have done without that?

irrelevant, since the development of the computer depended on the wheel, if the grogznoxaplorx could not have been developed without computers, it could not have been developed without wheels either.

[cyborg]

In that the computer would have been impossible without the wheel, but the wheel does not rely on computers at all, the wheel wins hands down.

Without the evolution of the biological computer it would have been impossible to invent the wheel.

[gdnp]

I'd have to read up on my simple machines to figure out if components of the motive apparatus of the flagellum qualify as wheels. I suspect nature has other examples, developed independently of human thought.

[INRM]

One could technically argue both...

The computer has probably done more overall... however without the wheel, the ability to carry large computer components from one location to the other and set them up and build the buildings that carried them back in the days when computers were still gigantic, they would probably not have gotten the start they needed.

I could be wrong...


INRM

[Jimbo07]

irrelevant, since the development of the computer depended on the wheel, if the grogznoxaplorx could not have been developed without computers, it could not have been developed without wheels either.

... but I guess that's part of the somewhat glib point I was making. If you say the wheel underpins most modern technologies, and was invented by Oog, I'd say the invention of the wedge by Zod wins! :D

It's a silly question.

[Bob Blaylock]

Definitely the wheel. Like most modern things, most really modern forklifts have computers in them to help them to work better; but it is entirely possible to build a forklift without a computer, and most older ones don't have them or need them. But it would be nearly impossible — if not entirely impossible — to build a usable forklift without wheels.

[shuize]

The wheel, hands down.

Not convinced? Take one away and see what it's like living without it?

No computers? Basically the 1970s.

No wheels? The Stone Age.

[Myriad]

Without fire, you wouldn't have a graphics metaphor to emphasize how fast your wheel can go, nor a verbal metaphor for how much time and money your computer software project is consuming.

That proves fire is more important than the wheel or the computer.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[applecorped]

Without fire, you wouldn't have a graphics metaphor to emphasize how fast your wheel can go, nor a verbal metaphor for how much time and money your computer software project is consuming.

That proves fire is more important than the wheel or the computer.

Respectfully,
Myriad

The computer is in its infancy. It won't be a question of who so much as how much.

[PixyMisa]

Without computers, you couldn't engage in ridiculous and pointless philosophical arguments with people all over the planet. Therefore... Uh, what was the question again?

[learner]

A portable computer. not a laptop, a big desktop, on wheels.

Both of them win!

[GreyICE]

Definitely the wheel. Like most modern things, most really modern forklifts have computers in them to help them to work better; but it is entirely possible to build a forklift without a computer, and most older ones don't have them or need them. But it would be nearly impossible — if not entirely impossible — to build a usable forklift without wheels. You heard the man folks, no way to move without wheels.
(http://k41.pbase.com/g3/19/615419/2/52857146.M1AbramsTank.jpg)

FYI, I think computers will prove more important in the long run, in this little philosophical masturbation.

[Dancing David]

Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?


Neither, string, glue and fire. Those are the movers and shakers of civilization.

:D

[Dancing David]

In that the computer would have been impossible without the wheel, but the wheel does not rely on computers at all, the wheel wins hands down.

Well, in that case, the simple machines win (as argued in one point here, The Lever and the Inclined Plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine) :D)

Seriously. This isn't a question that can be reasonably asked. The full development of neither computer nor wheel has occurred. Perhaps computers enable the invention of the grogznoxaplorx. What would civilization ever have done without that?

Without fire, you wouldn't have a graphics metaphor to emphasize how fast your wheel can go, nor a verbal metaphor for how much time and money your computer software project is consuming.

That proves fire is more important than the wheel or the computer.

Respectfully,
Myriad


String rules with glue at it's side and fire underneath!

String is KING!

:D

(Look at that string and glue burn, maybe it should be
String rules with glue and fire at it's side, with fire at a safe distance)

[gdnp]

String is KING!

:D


Scissors cut string. Scissors rule! ;)

[cyborg]

Rock breaks scissors - rock is the greatest invention!

[Bikewer]

Rock....First tools. String....Used to tie rocks onto arrow shafts....Glue...used to keep the whole thing from unravelling when you shoot it into a mastodon.

Wheels certainly have longevity, difficult to imagine we could do without them. Even the computer has a few wheels inside. (that is, until solid-state storage becomes the norm, which won't be long.)
Maybe when we start manufacturing with nanotechnology, and operating cars that work with magnetic-lift fields. Likely, kids will still want bicycles.

Still, the computer has helped advance knowledge at an impressive and ever-increasing rate and in a very short time.

[Arthur Denton]

The wheel has done more for humans. But the computer will do more. There's time, and space, and the predisposition. But the wheel will remain important, as much as the fire.

[The Sopwith Turtle]

You heard the man folks, no way to move without wheels.
(http://k41.pbase.com/g3/19/615419/2/52857146.M1AbramsTank.jpg)

FYI, I think computers will prove more important in the long run, in this little philosophical masturbation.

I assume from the URL that the link was a picture of a tank, though it no longer seems to be around. As it happens, the tank needs wheels to run, it's just that the wheels are covered by a track.

I also vote for the wheel.

[INRM]

Wait... you need wheels in conveyor belts right? Well without conveyor belts you couldn't run an assembly line which is needed for computer building currently...

As a result, without the wheel, there would be no computer most likely.


INRM

[Faolan]

who's SM Sterling?

[Soapy Sam]

What the value of pi changes so that circles are no longer round?

What then? :eek:

We can blame the LHC.

[TheDaver]

The wheel. Definitely. It’s everywhere. And gears, pulleys and motors are just expansions on the wheel concept.

Computers can be used to analyze or control almost anything, but wheels are used to move almost everything.

[Faolan]

i must say this has proved to be most interesting to observe everyone's thoughts. that in the end, regardless of what people chose, it is easy to see that many people have decided that having one and not the other would be most unpleasant. in my opinion the wheel appears to be winning, yet it's a computer we are debating these thoughts on. is that irony???

[applecorped]

i must say this has proved to be most interesting to observe everyone's thoughts. that in the end, regardless of what people chose, it is easy to see that many people have decided that having one and not the other would be most unpleasant. in my opinion the wheel appears to be winning, yet it's a computer we are debating these thoughts on. is that irony???

ka-ching!

[Jimbo07]

in my opinion the wheel appears to be winning, yet it's a computer we are debating these thoughts on. is that irony???

Just to reiterate, in my opinion, choosing the wheel is absurd. If you're choosing any of the simple machines, I'd imagine the wedge came first. In fact, the first anything conscripted from its original purpose, like a bone or rock, is probably the single most important invention on the road towards more interesting machines. By the way, simple plows for agriculture have more in common with wedges than wheels.

Moreover we don't know much about the invention of the wheel, but we know an awful lot about the individual players in the invention of electromechanical and electronic computers!

[Faolan]

Just to reiterate, in my opinion, choosing the wheel is absurd. If you're choosing any of the simple machines, I'd imagine the wedge came first. In fact, the first anything conscripted from its original purpose, like a bone or rock, is probably the single most important invention on the road towards more interesting machines. By the way, simple plows for agriculture have more in common with wedges than wheels.

Moreover we don't know much about the invention of the wheel, but we know an awful lot about the individual players in the invention of electromechanical and electronic computers!

yes, but .. the question was wheel or computer... either, or... this or that.... not "which simple machine or more interesting machine has done more for humans"

so, your other opinions aside.. which is it? wheel or computer.. one or the other....

[Jimbo07]

yes, but .. the question was wheel or computer... either, or... this or that.... not "which simple machine or more interesting machine has done more for humans"

so, your other opinions aside.. which is it? wheel or computer.. one or the other....

And my opinion is: wheel or computer is a gross oversimplification, a silly question, and obscures a lot of interesting history of technology!

[Faolan]

And my opinion is: wheel or computer is a gross oversimplification, a silly question, and obscures a lot of interesting history of technology!

"..a gross oversimplification..." When you think about what steps it took to figure out the benifits of the wheel, or to create all the components for a computer that once fit in a large room and can now be microscopic, I see no simplification there.

.." silly question.." Hardly, the question poses the idea of mechanical/electronic technology/tools versus basic sticks, stones, build it with your hands technology/tools. The wheel and the computer have been helpful in many areas.

2 objects, out of thousands, were chosen to be compared. Answering this "silly question" does not negate that other useful and interesting tools exist or have furthered man's technological evolution.

So, in this setting, with this question, regardless that there are in fact lots of other nifty things out there, which is it... wheel or computer... ??? :)

[Dancing David]

Just to reiterate, in my opinion, choosing the wheel is absurd. If you're choosing any of the simple machines, I'd imagine the wedge came first. In fact, the first anything conscripted from its original purpose, like a bone or rock, is probably the single most important invention on the road towards more interesting machines. By the way, simple plows for agriculture have more in common with wedges than wheels.

Moreover we don't know much about the invention of the wheel, but we know an awful lot about the individual players in the invention of electromechanical and electronic computers!

Except for the fokken stick, what use are most of the things without the string.

BTW to use the inclined pane does require either string or wheels of some sort, but you still need that string.

I would say that agriculture and storage are two biggies as well.

[Dancing David]

If given only those choices, I will take the wheel. Can't make the computer without it, couldn't make electricity with out it.

Or do you mean in absence of reality in some platonic tool plane?

[ponderingturtle]

Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?

you could not develop with precision manufacturing needed to make a computer with out gears and screws and other forms of advanced wheels.

So with out wheels you have no computers.

Essentialy you are asking if the information revolution has advanced human civilization more than the industrial revolution.

[TMiguel]

Unequivocally the wheel. It has produce the ground means of moving heavy objects without having to lift them or deal whit friction. Providing means of construction and supply delivery that has been essential for the world until today.

In other hands computers have done little to no contribution the well fare of the population. No doubt it is an important tool for the development of science and consequentially well fare. But despite of what you may think about computers, they only speed up processes that could have been done by hand. Sure many of the data processing we wouldn’t even dare of doing just because it would waste us our entire life to do it, and became a trivial thing whit computers. Unless you think that a computer is done whit magic, some one had to build, some one had to design it and engineer it in order to perform the desired effect, and for that the engineer must know how to do those processes by hand in the first place, even worst it must know more then most of the people in order to create an algorithm that works whit the majority of the cases and in a way that can be computed. And despite of what you may think, the majority of the calculations needed for the cutting edge physics are done exclusively by hand.
Sure some of the hard work number crushing done by computers has given some contribution, but not has much has the wheel.

[jimbob]

Agriculture

[Faolan]

Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?

you should have made this a pole... :)

[applecorped]

you should have made this a pole... :)

A stripper pole? Oh! a Poll!:D

[Just thinking]

Actually, the wheel has limited use without the axle, which gives it vastly more applications.

So my vote is the wheel/axle combo. (Which I believe can be found in everyone's hard drive.)

[Paulhoff]

Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?
Well you said "ADVANCE human civiliztion", on that and since computers are very very very new, I will say in the long term computers.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Ichneumonwasp]

I vote pottery.

[quixotecoyote]

Wheels. Computers are not only too new to have advanced civilization comparably, but large portions of the world don't even have access to them, whereas wheels are ubiquitous.

[technoextreme]

I vote that this is a dumb question. Some of the very first computing devices were mechanical and hence relied upon some of the wheels relatives to work.

[The Man]

Wheel. It promote actually interacting physically with the world. It provides a way to efficient harvest, make things mobile, etc.
While the computer has helped, and continues to help in many ways. It promotes detached socializing which will eventually cause more social anxiety and interaction issues. Furthermore, should something ever happen to the electricity we have come to reply on, at least the wheel will still be there, even is we have to carve it the "old fashioned" way.


Don’t get too hung up on the electrical aspects of today’s computers. Before electricity computers were often just the application of variants of the wheel, the gear or the cam. Of course some non-electric computers like the abacus and the slide rule have no wheel like components.

ETA: What technoextreme said.

[applecorped]

I vote that this is a dumb question.

Unfortunately for you that wasn't an option. If you were not able to pick one of the two then you should have politely refrained from posting at all.

[NobbyNobbs]

How about the wheel-shaped computer (http://technabob.com/blog/2007/01/07/sony-vaio-tp1-the-round-pc/)?

[NobbyNobbs]

Well you said "ADVANCE human civiliztion", on that and since computers are very very very new, I will say in the long term computers.

Paul

:) :) :)

Yes, but he also said HAS DONE more. Past tense. Wheels.

[Brendy]

I'd have to read up on my simple machines to figure out if components of the motive apparatus of the flagellum qualify as wheels. I suspect nature has other examples, developed independently of human thought.

The protein structure that turns adp to atp in the mitochondria is a wheel. That is the only wheel created by nature that i know of.

[h.g.Whiz]

johan guttenberg's printing press and paper dwarf the computer and wheel but harnessing fire trumps all of them.

[Just thinking]

No matter how advanced we become, I'll bet that somewhere there will always be wheels spinning.

[applecorped]

Yes, but he also said HAS DONE more. Past tense. Wheels.

Correct.

Has done = wheel
Will do = computer

[technoextreme]

Correct.

Has done = wheel
Will do = computer
Wrong. Both. Which is precisely why I think it's a dumb question. Your asking to compare two completely different technologies whose time frame and application are completely different.

[applecorped]

Wrong. Both. Which is precisely why I think it's a dumb question. Your asking to compare two completely different technologies whose time frame and application are completely different.

Imagine that! A comparison! Who could ever have an opinion on that?

[The Man]

Wrong. Both. Which is precisely why I think it's a dumb question. Your asking to compare two completely different technologies whose time frame and application are completely different.

Well, again, let’s not get too hung up on the differences between the wheel and computing devices. As we have both said, some computing devices do depend on variants of the wheel and as I have said others do not. I have no reference to assert that the abacus might have been developed before the wheel. However, I do know that the computing device that developed the wheel was the human mind.

[TMiguel]

Correct.

Has done = wheel
Will do = computer

Not at all. As far as I see it, there is no real application at which a computer can bring any significant benefit. Has I have explained a computer all it does in to perform all the tedious number crushing that one could do it by hand but it takes to much time. Although a computer can be an important tool, most of the future research and new developments can by implication NOT be done whit a computer at all, but must be done by hand. A probably it will always be like this because you would need to know what it is before you build a computer to do it for you.

[NobbyNobbs]

Not at all. As far as I see it, there is no real application at which a computer can bring any significant benefit.

How about the ability to share that sentence with thousands, or potentially millions, of people easily?

[DC]

the Weel.
still used today.

[Cuddles]

The wheel. Until we have hovercars, at which point the wheel will become completely obsolete and we will instead worship ionflux-fusion thrusters. Where's my hovercar, dammit?!?

[TMiguel]

How about the ability to share that sentence with thousands, or potentially millions, of people easily?
Any new cutting edge knowledge are on papers that are widely distributed around the world.

[jimbob]

The wheel. Until we have hovercars, at which point the wheel will become completely obsolete and we will instead worship ionflux-fusion thrusters. Where's my hovercar, dammit?!?

Even then, any steering gimballs etc. will probably be based on the wheel. To physically manipulate something you need a very advanced technology before the wheel becomes obsolete.

[jimbob]

In the last 1500 years, I'd put printing and gunpowder as the most important inventions, as one allowed an intellectual debate to be fostered, and the other removed the military, and consequentlal social, economic and political dominance that armoured, trained, well-fed warriors had over even rich peasants, and burghers.

These were the two most important technologies for ending the feudal system and ending the middle ages.

In the last 500,000 years: fire*, clothes*, baskets, belts and pockets (free hands, can carry babies), pottery, agriculature,
*maybe these are earlier?

Before that, the knife and spear, as they moved humans up the food chain

[Dancing David]

In the last 1500 years, I'd put printing and gunpowder as the most important inventions, as one allowed an intellectual debate to be fostered, and the other removed the military, and consequentlal social, economic and political dominance that armoured, trained, well-fed warriors had over even rich peasants, and burghers.

These were the two most important technologies for ending the feudal system and ending the middle ages.

In the last 500,000 years: fire*, clothes*, baskets, belts and pockets (free hands, can carry babies), pottery, agriculature,
*maybe these are earlier?

Before that, the knife and spear, as they moved humans up the food chain

The role of homo sapiens ancestros was that of scavenger, not really a move up, more a move over. Scavnge bone marrow, sinews (string) and hides.

Not man the noble hunter, man the one that gets it after everyone else.

BTW, we don't have data on certain objects past about 14,000 years ago.

[Paulhoff]

Any new cutting edge knowledge are on papers that are widely distributed around the world.
You are just being silly.

Paul

:) :) :)

Send the answer to me by mail.

[Zygar]

The wheel is nothing. The axle was the real invention.

[Hawk one]

The wheel is nothing. The axle was the real invention.
Zygar is indeed correct. While the proto-wheel (i.e. rolling things on a bunch of heavy logs, then picking up the logs and put them ahead of the big thing again) had its uses* it was the wheel axle that made a real difference. And it was also pretty damn impressive because the wheel axle is one design you just don't find in nature. I'm not sure how many steps it took from the protowheel until the first axle as we know it, but those must have been some clever bastards to figure that one out.


*At least if you like making big monuments with very big pieces of stone in honour of yourself and/or your current favourite deity. And really, who doesn't?

[technoextreme]

And it was also pretty damn impressive because the wheel axle is one design you just don't find in nature. I'm not sure how many steps it took from the protowheel until the first axle as we know it, but those must have been some clever bastards to figure that one out.
Not really. Going from an fulcrum to axle isn't really all that impressive in a leap of faith. They are both pivot points. Now having someone figure out that you could lift something 5 times your own weight using a combination of wheels,levers, and gears is more impressive.
Well, again, let’s not get too hung up on the differences between the wheel and computing devices.
There is a reason though to. The wheel for all intents and purposes is considered one of the basic building blocks for all mechanical devices. It's pretty much a given to anyone with basic mechanical background that you are going to be working with it if you are going to build something that moves. In order to create a valid comparison you have to compare the wheel to something more electrically basic. Something more like a building block.

[Zygar]

Not really. Going from an fulcrum to axle isn't really all that impressive in a leap of faith. They are both pivot points. Now having someone figure out that you could lift something 5 times your own weight using a combination of wheels,levers, and gears is more impressive.

There is a reason though to. The wheel for all intents and purposes is considered one of the basic building blocks for all mechanical devices. It's pretty much a given to anyone with basic mechanical background that you are going to be working with it if you are going to build something that moves. In order to create a valid comparison you have to compare the wheel to something more electrically basic. Something more like a building block.

Like a transistor...

My take on it is that computing devices and wheels are pretty much equal in terms of usefulness. Both exclusively improve the time and performance of actions you could do without them. As I see it, the primary question is whether mechanical or digital items have a greater impact on mankind. And I'd have to say it's an absolute tossup.

The digital age has lent to much better mechanical goods. Take the automobile, for example. It's been dramatically improved due to manufacturing processes only available to us due to computing. Not to mention the computers driving them.

At the same time, we'd never have been able to create the concept of computing without clockwork. Nor could we have the components to make modern computers without the significant improvements in manufacturing processes which came in the industrial age.

Today, computers are made by wheels, and wheels are made by computers. It's a tossup.

[NobbyNobbs]

Any new cutting edge knowledge are on papers that are widely distributed around the world.

Are you suggesting there's been no improvement on the distribution of knowledge between the time of the Guttenberg bible and now?

[technoextreme]

Today, computers are made by wheels, and wheels are made by computers. It's a tossup.
That's a circular argument though. The way computers are made nowadays you need a computer.

[The Man]

Like a transistor...

My take on it is that computing devices and wheels are pretty much equal in terms of usefulness. Both exclusively improve the time and performance of actions you could do without them. As I see it, the primary question is whether mechanical or digital items have a greater impact on mankind. And I'd have to say it's an absolute tossup.

The digital age has lent to much better mechanical goods. Take the automobile, for example. It's been dramatically improved due to manufacturing processes only available to us due to computing. Not to mention the computers driving them.

At the same time, we'd never have been able to create the concept of computing without clockwork. Nor could we have the components to make modern computers without the significant improvements in manufacturing processes which came in the industrial age.

Today, computers are made by wheels, and wheels are made by computers. It's a tossup.
Well, the wheel is a fairly simple application. Very easy to discovery (see rock or log rolling down hill), develop (try rolling other rocks or logs down hill) and use (put something heavy on rocks or logs and move). As such it is also a very fundamental application even to some computer. It would be difficult to imagine a world with out the wheel.

Today’s computers certainly represent significant advancements in science and technology and certainly our modern world could not exist with out them. However, it is far easier to imagine a world (as it was) without modern computers. Evan a world without any computing devices (wheel like components or not) but with the wheel is not inconceivable.

We can perform the function of a computer albeit not so efficiently. We can also perform the function of the wheel also not so efficiently. In a world without computers or the wheel I think we would function far better as computers then we would as wheels. So, of the two, the wheel would be the most needed by us.

[ponderingturtle]

Correct.

Has done = wheel
Will do = computer

Why are people still ignoreing that the computer was a result of developments that required the wheel?

It is like asking what is more important the transistor or the micro chip.

[DanishDynamite]

Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?
Or the ability to make fire vs. the ability to program your VCR?

Please stop asking braindead, I mean less than relevant, questions.

[applecorped]

Or the ability to make fire vs. the ability to program your VCR?

Please stop asking braindead, I mean less than relevant, questions.

I am not negating any other invention. I am comparing and contrasting two important items in human advancement. Why is this so hard for you?

[applecorped]

Why are people still ignoreing that the computer was a result of developments that required the wheel?

It is like asking what is more important the transistor or the micro chip.

Have you never been asked to compare two different things? It doesn't do anything to promote them over any other invention. I could have asked "which has done more X or Y? I picked two things that were thousands of years apart to see what people think.

If you don't have an opinion don't participate.

[Jimbo07]

I am comparing and contrasting two important items in human advancement.

Okay, though... why? Why have you selected those two? Why not fire, the wedge, or the laser?

I picked two things that were thousands of years apart to see what people think.

If you don't have an opinion don't participate.

Okay, but there are other things to pick apart that span thousands of years. Which is harder to build, a pyramid or a functioning space station? What makes it an interesting comparison? What is the point under contention?

Until you state a reason, I think it's perfectly valid to promote the opinion that it makes no more sense to ask, "which was the more important invention, the stirrup or the automobile? :boggled:" That the discussion could be taken in any particular interesting direction is not immediately evident in the OP!

[applecorped]

Okay, though... why? Why have you selected those two? Why not fire, the wedge, or the laser?



Okay, but there are other things to pick apart that span thousands of years. Which is harder to build, a pyramid or a functioning space station? What makes it an interesting comparison? What is the point under contention?

Until you state a reason, I think it's perfectly valid to promote the opinion that it makes no more sense to ask, "which was the more important invention, the stirrup or the automobile? :boggled:" That the discussion could be taken in any particular interesting direction is not immediately evident in the OP!

If you want to start your own thread. I'm asking for opinions not reasons.

[NobbyNobbs]

If you want to start your own thread. I'm asking for opinions not reasons.

And you are getting what you asked for. Some people have expressed the opinion that the question is useless without a reason for asking it.

[jimbob]

Okay, though... why? Why have you selected those two? Why not fire, the wedge, or the laser?



Okay, but there are other things to pick apart that span thousands of years. Which is harder to build, a pyramid or a functioning space station? What makes it an interesting comparison? What is the point under contention?

Until you state a reason, I think it's perfectly valid to promote the opinion that it makes no more sense to ask, "which was the more important invention, the stirrup or the automobile? :boggled:" That the discussion could be taken in any particular interesting direction is not immediately evident in the OP!


Several that I had missed in the post below Jimbo...

In the last 1500 years, I'd put printing and gunpowder as the most important inventions, as one allowed an intellectual debate to be fostered, and the other removed the military, and consequentlal social, economic and political dominance that armoured, trained, well-fed warriors had over even rich peasants, and burghers.

These were the two most important technologies for ending the feudal system and ending the middle ages.

In the last 500,000 years: fire*, clothes*, baskets, belts and pockets (free hands, can carry babies), pottery, agriculature,
*maybe these are earlier?

Before that, the knife and spear, as they moved humans up the food chain

The role of homo sapiens ancestros was that of scavenger, not really a move up, more a move over. Scavnge bone marrow, sinews (string) and hides.

Not man the noble hunter, man the one that gets it after everyone else.



Dancing David, I'd agree with most of your addition, but with the caveat, that by having tools, our ancestors could get at protein that other scavengers couldn't, Getting at bone-marrow, for example.

I believe there are arguments that the enabling of a scavanging lifestyle, with the additional protein and energy could have enabled the evolution of bigger brains, which use a lot of energy.

[applecorped]

And you are getting what you asked for. Some people have expressed the opinion that the question is useless without a reason for asking it.

It's a secret!

[Paulhoff]

Well if you what to talk about the wheel as only a good thing that is OK, but

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Iraq-m1_abrams.jpg/735px-Iraq-m1_abrams.jpg

There are bad things too, for both................

Paul

:) :) :)

[applecorped]

Well if you what to talk about the wheel as only a good thing that is OK, but

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Iraq-m1_abrams.jpg/735px-Iraq-m1_abrams.jpg

There are bad things too, for both................

Paul

:) :) :)

How is a American M1-Abrams tank a bad thing?

[h.g.Whiz]

Zygar is indeed correct. While the proto-wheel (i.e. rolling things on a bunch of heavy logs, then picking up the logs and put them ahead of the big thing again) had its uses* it was the wheel axle that made a real difference. And it was also pretty damn impressive because the wheel axle is one design you just don't find in nature. I'm not sure how many steps it took from the protowheel until the first axle as we know it, but those must have been some clever bastards to figure that one out.


*At least if you like making big monuments with very big pieces of stone in honour of yourself and/or your current favourite deity. And really, who doesn't?

What about the roads wheels and axles travel on? Without roads most cars wouldn't travel very far.

[Paulhoff]

How is a American M1-Abrams tank a bad thing?
Ask people on the wrong side of any tank.

Paul

:) :) :)

[DanishDynamite]

Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?
Your question is meaningless untill you provide a means of evalution.

[applecorped]

Ask people on the wrong side of any tank.

Paul

:) :) :)

Kinda of depends who those people are doesn't it?

[applecorped]

Your question is meaningless untill you provide a means of evalution.

So is your answer.

[DanishDynamite]

So is your answer.
Sorry, which answer are you talking about?

[applecorped]

Sorry, which answer are you talking about?

You are the means or evaluation. Go evaluate and get back to me.

[DanishDynamite]

You are the means or evaluation. Go evaluate and get back to me.
Not understood.

[Paulhoff]

Kinda of depends who those people are doesn't it?
You're right, no tank has ever killed the wrong people and/or children, geez.

Paul

:) :) :)

[applecorped]

Not understood.

I wanted other people to evaluate the question. The question you know already. The answers were to be the evaluation. Some ignored the question due to not wanting to compare the two or wanting to challenge the notion that those two items could or should be compared in the first place.

I wasn't asking what was the most important invention to human development. I wanted to compare two important items in human advancement to bring about a discussion. All critiques are valuable.

I am interested in responses; yours as well.

[applecorped]

You're right, no tank has ever killed the wrong people and/or children, geez.

Paul

:) :) :)

They may have but does that make them not useful at all?

[DanishDynamite]

I wanted other people to evaluate the question. The question you know already. The answers were to be the evaluation. Some ignored the question due to not wanting to compare the two or wanting to challenge the notion that those two items could or should be compared in the first place.

I wasn't asking what was the most important invention to human development. I wanted to compare two important items in human advancement to bring about a discussion. All critiques are valuable.

I am interested in responses; yours as well.
I understand.

Here is your question: "Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?"

Please define "advance" and "human civilization". Thanks.

[applecorped]

I understand.

Here is your question: "Which has done more to advance human civilization, the wheel or the computer?"

Please define "advance" and "human civilization". Thanks.

No.

You define it and get back to me.

[DanishDynamite]

No.

You define it and get back to me.
You made the statement. Hence, you define it.

[applecorped]

You made the statement. Hence, you define it.

Definition is in the eye of the beholder. What do you think?

[DanishDynamite]

Definition is in the eye of the beholder. What do you think?
I cannot answer your apparently interesting question in a meaningful manner if you cannot define what you mean by your question.

Sorry.

[applecorped]

I cannot answer your apparently interesting question in a meaningful manner if you cannot define what you mean by your question.

Sorry.

There are no tricks here. The wheel has enabled humans to do certain things; so has the computer. It is hard to weigh the influence of each in relation to one another. That is why I asked. The question is hard because both have given and enabled much.

[DanishDynamite]

There are no tricks here. The wheel has enabled humans to do certain things; so has the computer. It is hard to weigh the influence of each in relation to one another. That is why I asked. The question is hard because both have given and enabled much.
I never suspected that there was any trick afoot. I just wanted clear definitions of the terms you used in your question.

You have not provided such. I therefore cannot answer your question. Sorry.

[applecorped]

I never suspected that there was any trick afoot. I just wanted clear definitions of the terms you used in your question.

You have not provided such. I therefore cannot answer your question. Sorry.

As stated before you will have to provide your own definitions as to what you believe is "advance" and "human civilization".

This question is about you, not me. If you can't or won't provide an answer that is okay.

[DanishDynamite]

As stated before you will have to provide your own definitions as to what you believe is "advance" and "human civilization".

This question is about you, not me. If you can't or won't provide an answer that is okay.
I cannot answer a question which is not defined.

End of story.

[Dancing David]

Definition is in the eye of the beholder. What do you think?


This is the JREF, 70% of discussion is about defintion.

[applecorped]

This is the JREF, 70% of discussion is about defintion.


Welcome to the other 30%.

[applecorped]

I cannot answer a question which is not defined.

End of story.

Opinions don't require definitions.

[Paulhoff]

Opinions don't require definitions.
Since when.

Paul

:) :) :)

[applecorped]

Since when.

Paul

:) :) :)

Plenty of people have been able to offer an opinion here without needing a definition. If you can't so be it.

[jimbob]

I've started this thread:

Most influential inventions why and over what timeframe (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=123564)

[applecorped]

Best wishes.

[NobbyNobbs]

Opinions don't require definitions.

Fine. My opinion is that the kerflunkel in the positrite is too over-bladulated to matter which falitter is gyrakeled.

And since you say opinions don't require definitions, I won't bother giving any.

[applecorped]

No one is asking you for one.

[Almo]

We wouldn't have the computer without the wheel.

[TMiguel]

Are you suggesting there's been no improvement on the distribution of knowledge between the time of the Guttenberg bible and now?
Sorry I haven’t been around lately to answer it.
There has been improvement on the distribution of knowledge provided by computers. But not at all has you think. The problem is access and validation, has the only method of serious information is still being exclusively printed because of access and validation.
Although you can read scientific articles on the web, there are submitted for publication on a “Printed” journal. The majority of the people get informed what is going on in the world by the “News Paper”.
So computers (and mainly the Internet), is not that much an essential element on today’s information at all.
And stating that a computer most significant use is information trading, it’s a bit downgrading the capabilities of the computer.

I don't really care about the rest of the statements because it is all out of topic anyways.

[Paulhoff]

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/brewster_kahle_builds_a_free_digital_library.html

Paul

:) :) :)