Are truthers delusional or dishonest?

[KJC]

I'm not necessarily talking about the people who make conspiracy websites or propaganda movies. I'm talking about the people who read these books or watch these movies.

Are they more delusional than they are dishonest?

Or are they more dishonest than delusional?

[uk_dave]

yes

[GlennB]

More delusional. But there's subconcious dishonesty going on, in the realm of rejection of facts that would undermine the delusion. In the types you describe it boils down, in my opinion, to a desire to believe in something esoteric.

[DC]

I'm not necessarily talking about the people who make conspiracy websites or propaganda movies. I'm talking about the people who read these books or watch these movies.

Are they more delusional than they are dishonest?

Or are they more dishonest than delusional?

have you watched Loose Change?

[Hokulele]

have you watched Loose Change?


Because it is both dishonest and delusional?

[DC]

Because it is both dishonest and delusional?

:D

[mrbaracuda]

How about the Dunning Kruger Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect)?

[The Doc]

I tend to place the conspiracists into three categories in this regard.

1. Misguided
2. Delusional
3. Dishonest

The first are the misguided. They usually only hang around the conspiracy related websites/events for a couple of months. Although they never may admit they were wrong, a lot of them simply disappear off the radar when they see their mistake. Some actually come out and say they were wrong, and on occasion dedicate themselves to debunking what they used to believe. This group was very prominent in September 2006, and as a result of the counter-movement of debunkers, have disappeared for the most part.

The second group are the delusional. For example, CIT, We Are Change, Ace Baker, pdoh and his socks, John Connor, etc. They appear to genuinely believe in what they are preaching and don't really profit from what they are doing (even if some of them try to, they still seem to believe it). This is evident from their 'activism' and dedication.

Now, the third group can also belong in the second group. They may believe the foundations of what they say, but for the most part it appears they're in it for some kind of gain and intentionally warp their reports to suit the conspiracist fantasy. This means that they believe the bigger picture, but will lie and generate false evidence to support their larger beliefs and convince others of these larger beliefs. These people are the likes of Alex Jones, Dylan Avery, Sophia from 9/11 Mysteries, Richard Gage, and William Rodriguez etc.

[T.A.M.]

Watching loose change?

The first question would be which version?

I have watched 2nd edition which was more than enough to realize it was absolute *********** garbage.

As for the OP:

As I have said before, most people who buy into this truther nonsense are simply gullible.

Do not beat up on the person who buys the snake oil, simply give them a stern warning, and then go to the source of the ****.

TAM:)

[mrbaracuda]

Watching loose change?

The first question would be which version?

Heh, reminds me. Some guy over at a German CT/debunker forum called this new 'ZERO' Loose Change 16 heh.

[eromitlab]

More delusional, I'd say. The ones I run across are so wrapped up in the idea that they're smarter and more aware than all those brain-dead Fox News-watching American Idol-loving sheeple; or, rather, in wanting to present that image publicly so that others will believe it too. Dishonesty is a component, but delusion ultimately fuels the dishonesty. When a truthist threatens to prosecute someone who openly fails to support the movement's pseudodocumentaries full of lies and appeals to authority full of frauds, charlatans and hucksters, they are of course being dishonest in projecting that there's more than a snowball's chance in hell that not only will truthists ever be able to take over the US government, but that they'd somehow be able to pursue their spurious fantasy prosecution and punishment of enemies in kangaroo-court show trials ranking alongside similar exercises of the pettiest and most corrupt dictatorships the world has ever known... however, personal delusions of grandeur, power and their own importance in the world are the key element that leads to those dishonest statements. When caught in a lie, truthists change the subject or move the goalposts; in my view, they do this to maintain their own delusion of being that hyper-aware possessor of secret knowledge and far superior mental acuity, that they possess a special ability that all those people with lives and jobs don't. They have to cling to the delusion of superiority that being a truthist gives them; otherwise, with the delusion gone, they'd be forced to confront their own unremarkable lot in life and possibly make life changes for the better; and from what I've seen of truthists, they really don't like change that requires any effort or sacrifice on their part.

[Homeland Insurgency]

I'm not necessarily talking about the people who make conspiracy websites or propaganda movies. I'm talking about the people who read these books or watch these movies.

Are they more delusional than they are dishonest?

Or are they more dishonest than delusional?

Do debunkers debunk or just deny?

[tsig]

have you watched Loose Change?

Have you watched life?

[tsig]

Do debunkers debunk or just deny?

We laugh.

[CptColumbo]

IMO many suffer from cognitive dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

[BigAl]

A search of the Journal of 911 Studies via google for ellipses, ("...")
will find about 120 instances in quotes and alleged citations, as I recall.
Essentially every instance represents words in the full quote that
would go against whatever claim it was being used t make.

The handful of people that control this website are guilty of
intellectual fraud.

[MarkyX]

I'm leaning towards dishonesty.

They quote mine, meaning they had to be fully aware of the quote in context before selecting that certain sentence.

They crop photos, meaning they had to know what the full picture looks like.

They edit audio and footage, so they had to look at the original footage to being with.

They lie about what happened on 9/11 with one lines like "faster than freefall speed" and "steel melted"

They lie about how tasks are done, such as Steven Jones' "thermite is commonly used in controlled demoliton" or "Pull it is a controlled demolition term for bombs"

Every argument presented by 9/11 deniers has been proven be fabricated by themselves.

[JimBenArm]

What? No "Stupid" option?

[CptColumbo]

What? No "Stupid" option?I didn't come across that word in my psychology text.

[parky76]

some truthers are dishonest. some truthers are dishonest and delusional. but ALL truthers are indeed delusional.

i believe they all suffer from some form of paranoia.

[PixyMisa]

I didn't come across that word in my psychology text.
Page 12.

[CptColumbo]

Page 12.I don't think Jung was serious when he called Freud that. Something must have been lost in translation.

[Reheat]

With very few exceptions they are all both delusional and dishonest. The dumber ones are just gullible and stupid.

Those considered leaders, such as the ones who write books and produce videos are more dishonest than others.

Pffft and CIT are in a special category of delusional, dishonest, and paranoid. These two are the epitome of all three.

For a recent sample take a look at this thread on ATS.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread387561/pg7

I have summarized the most prominent of Ranke's blatant lies in this specific thread on page 7.

[Quad4_72]

Do debunkers debunk or just deny?

Debunk.

[Quad4_72]

Do debunkers debunk or just deny?

The real question is, are you delusional or dishonest?

[Pardalis]

To be delusional is to be dishonest with one's self. If you deny the evidence to yourself first, then everything in your reasoning and attitude towards facts will fall apart from that point forward.

[WildCat]

Do debunkers debunk or just deny?
Oh yeah, some people just troll to fill some void in their lives.

[The Doc]

To be delusional is to be dishonest with one's self. If you deny the evidence to yourself first, then everything in your reasoning and attitude towards facts will fall apart from that point forward.

Well said.

[TheLoneBedouin]

Some truthers are delusional, some dishonest. All official conspiracy theorists are either delusional, dishonest, or ignorant, i.e. All members of the general population who have not looked at the evidence and support the official story are simply ignorant, whereas those who call themselves "debunkers" are usually both dishonest and delusional, though sometimes ignorant.

[Reheat]

To be delusional is to be dishonest with one's self. If you deny the evidence to yourself first, then everything in your reasoning and attitude towards facts will fall apart from that point forward.

Not necessarily. Some are delusional and don't recognize it simply because of a mental disorder some kind that has resulted in severe paranoia. In order for them to be dishonest they would need to be aware of the delusions. Consequently, I don't believe some are aware that they are delusional, although many are. So, in many cases you are correct. As with most anything regarding the human personality it's a mixed bag.

[Bobert]

The answer to the OP is dependent upon which Tin Foil hat that the truther is wearing that day.

[JohnG]

How about the Dunning Kruger Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect)?


As a young child, I was for a brief time sincerely convinced that I was a fully trained Guitarist (I beg the court's indulgence, I am going somewhere with this). I even signed up for a talent show (to be held the next day) to demonstrate my guitar playing prowess to the world until my parents gently pointed out that:

A: I didn't own a guitar

and perhaps more importantly

B: I did not know how to play the guitar

Where did I get the wild idea that I knew how to play the guitar despite the fact that I had never even touched one? Because I saw people playing them on TV, or course. As far as I could tell, you just had to wiggle your fingers around a bit with one hand and strum with the other and beautiful melodies would result.

In later years as a young man I actually studied guitar a bit and after months of practice could pick out a few simple tunes. You might have thought that based on my earlier confidence I would now be even more convinced of my musical talents. Quite the contrary; actually studying and playing the guitar showed me just how little I really knew about the subject and how much more practice and training I'd need to be considered merely proficient.

Luckily, experience and the wisdom that comes with it allowed me to grow out of the delusion that I was an expert in a field simply because I had watched a few programs about said field. Reading some of the posts in the Conspiracy Forums every day shows me that sadly not everyone is so lucky (at least not yet).

I'm tempted to end this post with 'you know who you are', but that wouldn't be true, and that's kind of my point.;)

[CptColumbo]

IMO many suffer from cognitive dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonanceFor example:

Some truthers are delusional, some dishonest. All official conspiracy theorists are either delusional, dishonest, or ignorant, i.e. All members of the general population who have not looked at the evidence and support the official story are simply ignorant, whereas those who call themselves "debunkers" are usually both dishonest and delusional, though sometimes ignorant.

[defaultdotxbe]

How about the Dunning Kruger Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect)?
the dunning-kruger argument could really go both ways



Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill.
Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others.
Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy.
If they can be trained to substantially improve their own skill level, these individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill.



except for #4, ive never known a debunker that "improved" their knowledge and became a truther, however i know of several truthers who have come over to the debunker side



as for OP, i think the average CT consumer (those who read the books, watch the videos, and believe them) are neither dishonest know delusional, simply uninformed

[Homeland Insurgency]

I'm not necessarily talking about the people who make conspiracy websites or propaganda movies. I'm talking about the people who read these books or watch these movies.

Are they more delusional than they are dishonest?

Or are they more dishonest than delusional?

You forgot unpatriotic and anti-Semitic.

[Tweeter]

Nice first post KFC, you`ll fit right in here.

[T.A.M.]

Some truthers are delusional, some dishonest. All official conspiracy theorists are either delusional, dishonest, or ignorant, i.e. All members of the general population who have not looked at the evidence and support the official story are simply ignorant, whereas those who call themselves "debunkers" are usually both dishonest and delusional, though sometimes ignorant.

So does that mean you are calling me delusional, dishonest or ignorant?

I believe the official account of 9/11? You said we are ALL one of those three.

I'm just asking? Which one am I TLB? I am debunker, so I guess that means you figure me for delusional and dishonest.

Well the questions are rhetorical, welcome to ignore (there you go, now I am IGNORE -ANT as well)

TAM

[parky76]

You forgot unpatriotic and anti-Semitic.

not all truthers are anti-semitic.

[deep]

I'm not necessarily talking about the people who make conspiracy websites or propaganda movies. I'm talking about the people who read these books or watch these movies.

Are they more delusional than they are dishonest?

Or are they more dishonest than delusional?


..because they choose to watch a video or read a book, they are either "delusional" or "dishonest"? Let me guess, you're excluding all of the debunkers who have watched those same videos?

[parky76]

..because they choose to watch a video or read a book, they are either "delusional" or "dishonest"? Let me guess, you're excluding all of the debunkers who have watched those same videos?


reading a book full of delusional ideas does not make one delusional. believing the delusional beliefs, however, does.

[deep]

reading a book full of delusional ideas does not make one delusional. believing the delusional beliefs, however, does.


Thanks, but that's not what it says in the OP.

[parky76]

I dont care about the OP. The fact is if you believe delusional beliefs, regardless of the source, you are delusional.

[Disenchanted]

Thanks, but that's not what it says in the OP.

Yes it is. With the title "Are truthers delusional or dishonest," it is clear he is talking about truthers who read the books or watch the movies.

Are you that poor at reading comprehension or are you being dishonest?

[Jontg]

First we debunk, then we laugh, then we lecture and pontificate, then we laugh even more. Rinse, repeat until the stain is expunged from the world.

[chillzero]

Thanks, but that's not what it says in the OP.

Did you miss this bit (bolding mine):

I'm not necessarily talking about the people who make conspiracy websites or propaganda movies. I'm talking about the people who read these books or watch these movies.

Are they more delusional than they are dishonest?

Or are they more dishonest than delusional?

Of course, it's not the people who just read or watch them - it's those who read or watch them and accept what is claimed as proof, without further checking. Do people do this deliberately, or do they just not know any better.

For any who spend more than a few weeks here learning how to look into the evidnce of claims, I would say it's a deliberate decision to uphold a dishonest viewpoint. For those who think research goes no further than CT sites and YouTube, I'd say possibly delusional, certainly ignorant.

[abenja1]

They are both. Period.

[Grizzly Bear]

I have a couple of classes I place conspiracy theorists as a whole into:

The first class consists of the incompetents and Intellectually dishonest:

These people are either people who assert authority over their claims all because of their title as professionals or find sport in deceiving people with something to gain either financial, politically, or otherwise by quote-mining witness testimony and such to fit their preconceived intentions. Groups including AE911truth, Pilots4truth, and the Loose Change crew fit this category best in what I've seen.

The second class consists of Ignorance and delusion:
Most people that fit this classification parrot the same content peddled by movement leaders without ever scrutinizing the content beyond face value. These people most often argue on the basis of appeal to popularity, authority, pity, etc. Some are paranoid about the politics, and others repeat testimony without ever looking past the text they read for understanding the situation they were in.

Sometimes this class is a combination of the 1st