Martial Arts

[Ashi]

The following quote is taken from Mr. Randi's latest commentary:

"...it would be quite a surprise for me to find any martial arts group that does not use supernatural claims and old tricks to sell its philosophy"

I understand that Mr. Randi is probably familiar with and therefore speaking of silly groups like yellowbamboo(zle) and the like, however, he is definitely painting with too broad a brush with this comment.

I have been an active competitive martial artist for over 25 years and I have practiced with dozens of different groups. I cannot think of one martial arts group that actually participates in competitive fighting activities that uses any kind of bunk to promote their fighting styles or philosophies. Actual fighting may be the defining factor that differentiates the groups Mr. Randi is speaking of and the ones that I am attempting to bring to his attention. A great many martial arts groups study physical combat from a scientific standpoint and therefore do not make any kind of supernatural claim. Even in arts like Muy Thai (that have traditional spiritual dances) and professional western boxing (in which it seems like every win is attributed to some deity) there are very few people who make any blatant supernatural claims because these claims will obviously be tested in the ring.

Just a few examples of the groups that I am referring to are as follows: SCA stick fighters, boxers, traditional kick-boxers, living history sword fighters and most teams and training groups that compete in IFC/HFC/UFC/Pride/K-1/Vale Tudo/Shidokan/Pankration style fighting.

[Trueblood]

Originally posted by Ashi
The following quote is taken from Mr. Randi's latest commentary:

"...it would be quite a surprise for me to find any martial arts group that does not use supernatural claims and old tricks to sell its philosophy"

I understand that Mr. Randi is probably familiar with and therefore speaking of silly groups like yellowbamboo(zle) and the like, however, he is definitely painting with too broad a brush with this comment.


This is another great example of Randi engaging his mouth without bothing to know what he's talking about. "Too broad a brush" as you say. Some people call it a straw man.

Like Ashi, I've been a martial artist for some time now training under people with credentials up to and including grand masters of their art. I have never been shown anything that's magic, or supernatural, or whatever.

[dsm]

Originally posted by Trueblood

Like Ashi, I've been a martial artist for some time now training under people with credentials up to and including grand masters of their art. I have never been shown anything that's magic, or supernatural, or whatever.


Have you ever been shown something by one of the masters that, to the untrained, would appear to be magical or supernatural?

Sir Arthur C. Clarke's third law comes into play here:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Randi should know this law quite well as much of his own profession (magic) makes good use of it. He should also understand the notion of "magicians never reveal their secrets" except to properly indoctrinated students of magic. He should, therefore, understand the possibility that martials arts masters may occasionally demonstrate techniques and cloak the explanation in terms that, to the uninitiated, appears magical (for instance, ki force or animal styles).

[Ashi]

DSM-

I for one have seen many examples of what you are describing. "The Unbendable Arm Technique" is one example that can work exactly as you expressed in your post. This type of bunk is common in some parts of the martial arts world (non-competitive arts for example) yet it is almost non-existent in others (competitive arts).

The point of my original post was just because a number of people who perform martial arts feats claim that there really is something supernatural at work, it does not follow that all martial artists claim supernatural powers.

Or, to put it another way:

The point of my original post was just because a number of people who perform magic illusions claim that there really is something supernatural at work, it does not follow that all magicians claim supernatural powers.

Could I reasonably say? "...it would be quite a surprise for me to find any magicians group that does not use supernatural claims and old tricks to sell its philosophy"

[dsm]

I should've said at the end of my last post that this doesn't necessarily mean that a martial artist is deceiving an uninitiated into a false belief, but rather that, through his manner and approach, he is merely setting up the person for a better understanding of what is to come. There is nothing wrong with this so long as the person is not lulled into a false belief that he too could perform this "miracle" with only a minimum of training.

p.s. I am not a martial artist -- I'm merely speculating on the above.

[thaiboxerken]

I'm a martial artist and a skeptic. I can't stand it when people try to tell me that "chi energy" is a real thing. The tricks that are done seem to lose their powers in the ring, or real fight. Chi masters should be forced to fight in the UFC. I'd love to see a MMA fighter ground the floor with a master of "Dim Mak".

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
I'm a martial artist and a skeptic. I can't stand it when people try to tell me that "chi energy" is a real thing. The tricks that are done seem to lose their powers in the ring, or real fight. Chi masters should be forced to fight in the UFC. I'd love to see a MMA fighter ground the floor with a master of "Dim Mak".

This is not true Mr. arrogant ****tard! Nobody has ever told TB****suckingK about chi. You’re a *********** dumb liar if you want us to get irrational accept your BS anecdotal claims.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

You can add the Inayan System of Escrima to that list. I have had several discussions with the current head of the system, Jason Inay. He too seems to regard the technical aspects of the system as a science. In fact, one of the things I have heard him say many times, is that the system is based on what has been demonstrated to work in actual combat. He also often uses the term "empirical knowledge" when referring to the application of the art. The point being that the forms, drills, techniques, patterns, etc, are all teaching tools, designed to develop skills and attributes. What actually makes it into an individual practitioner's personal fighting style, is that they have managed to make work in actual full-speed sparring. Anything else is just going to get you injured or killed.

I actually mentioned the Yellow Bamboo nonsense to him a few days ago. I got the distinct impression that he would have absolutely no compunctions about showing them what martial arts is really all about.


Dr. Stupid

[Kimpatsu]

The founder of Shorinji Kempo (http://wsko.econ-net.or.jp/wh-shorinji/) eschewed any magical claims, and was a religious agnostic.

[Zep]

Martial arts (karate) for eight years - no magic involved or invoked anywhere in our school, just concentration, hard graft and constant practice that gets harder the higher up the ladder I try to go. I have had the bruises and blood to mark my way...

Ki?? Ha!!! :roll:

[asthmatic camel]

I'm with Zep here, after years of training in karate and judo, not one mention of Qi/Chi. Endless hours of physically punishing kata, interspersed with humiliating and painful defeat by the experts was the way of it.

There's nothing paranormal about the abilities of martial arts masters, just years of experience and dedication.

[BillyJoe]

Last time Randi covered this topic he said almost the same thing. Perhaps someone should tap him on the shouder. It might save him some embarrassment one day in a less friendly crowd.

[LTC8K6]

Well, Randi did say "martial arts group". Meaning cultlike martial arts groups such as YB, I think.

[LTC8K6]

Al-Ma'unah martial arts cult (http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Islam/al_maunah.htm)

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by LTC8K6
Well, Randi did say "martial arts group". Meaning cultlike martial arts groups such as YB, I think. That's a generous interpretation LTC8K6

[Wudang]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
The founder of Shorinji Kempo (http://wsko.econ-net.or.jp/wh-shorinji/) eschewed any magical claims, and was a religious agnostic.

Yes but isn't it classified as a religion in Japan? As I recall it's a non-theistic "gradualist" (rinzai??) form of Buddhism? Trained for a few years under sensei's Bene Wang of Malaysia and others at Glasgow Uni.
I've been training in tai chi chuan for the past 15 years under a former full contact champion of south east asia. He points out that the older books (the Classics) talk about Jing (ummm trained power??) and not etheric chi. My experience is that the more mystic the approach the less they have to offer.

[LTC8K6]

I agree partly with Randi's statement whether he meant the cults or martial arts in general, since he said "and old tricks".

Old tricks seem to be fairly common in the martial arts demos I have seen.

[thaiboxerken]

I guess, if you are very liberal about the meaning of "old tricks", you are correct. A punch to the face is an "old trick". The only martial art demos I've done never involved trickery or deception. No board breaking nonsense or breaking other inanimate objects are ever involved in my schools. I guess the only real flashiness is when sparks fly off of our swords, but that's due to metal on metal contact. It's really cool if it's dark.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Wudang
Yes but isn't it classified as a religion in Japan? As I recall it's a non-theistic "gradualist" (rinzai??) form of Buddhism?
In Japan, "religion" (shukyo) is more akin to the English word "ethics". It has no theistic aspects, which is true of normal Northern Zen.

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
I guess, if you are very liberal about the meaning of "old tricks", you are correct. A punch to the face is an "old trick". The only martial art demos I've done never involved trickery or deception. No board breaking nonsense or breaking other inanimate objects are ever involved in my schools. I guess the only real flashiness is when sparks fly off of our swords, but that's due to metal on metal contact. It's really cool if it's dark.

Seems to me that the "nonsense" of breaking boards is a more effective demonstration of power than "sword dancing".

[thaiboxerken]

Power, not really. Board breaking is a technique-oriented skill. That technique, however, is only good for breaking boards and brittle objects. The boards are even specially cut so that they can break it. I'd like to see a board breaker break a 2X4 piece of lumber from the hardware store.

Sword fighting isn't about power at all either, it's about cutting and not getting cut. Well, unless you are talking about Claymores and other mid century bashing tools that were called swords.

[BTox]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

Sword fighting isn't about power at all either, it's about cutting and not getting cut. Well, unless you are talking about Claymores and other mid century bashing tools that were called swords.

Now there's a useful self-defense skill. I think I have a better chance of being attacked by a board than someone with a sword. ;)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by BTox
Now there's a useful self-defense skill. I think I have a better chance of being attacked by a board than someone with a sword. ;)
It's not a self-defence skill; it's to entertain the crowds. That's why board breaking is called bugei (martial entertainment), not bujutsu (arts of combat).

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by BTox
Now there's a useful self-defense skill. I think I have a better chance of being attacked by a board than someone with a sword. ;)
It's not a self-defence skill; it's to entertain the crowds. That's why board breaking is called bugei (martial entertainment), not bujutsu (arts of combat).

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by BTox


Now there's a useful self-defense skill. I think I have a better chance of being attacked by a board than someone with a sword. ;)

Ahh, but in my martial arts, when learning to fight with a sword, one is learning to fight with all melee weapons and anything that could be improvised. Breaking boards is, as Kimpatsu pointed out, for just entertainment..... like mediumship.

[BTox]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


Ahh, but in my martial arts, when learning to fight with a sword, one is learning to fight with all melee weapons and anything that could be improvised. Breaking boards is, as Kimpatsu pointed out, for just entertainment..... like mediumship.

Yeah, I know. Weapons are cool. Still haven't ever seen a street thug toting excalibur, though.

[thaiboxerken]

Yea, but knives are pretty common. The movements are the same. That's why I like Kali, it teaches movement groups instead of just one weapon at a time.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

Ahh, but in my martial arts, when learning to fight with a sword, one is learning to fight with all melee weapons and anything that could be improvised.

Sooo... why not just learn to fight with pipes, sticks, or whatever will be on "the street" instead of swords?

[T'ai Chi]

I practice a bit of taijiquan jian (straight sword), but more for exercise and meditation, and only for a little of the self-defense.

I agree, no one will attack me with a sword, and it would be more realistic to learn how to use a staff.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Sooo... why not just learn to fight with pipes, sticks, or whatever will be on "the street" instead of swords?

We do and we are. We train with sticks, because messing up with a sword would be bad. We also train with dummy knives, scarves, ropes and all sorts of other weapons. Were you reading what I said, when training the sword we are training to us anything as a weapon.

[Hannibal]

Swords are not common, but they do crop up. Machetes are on the increase in street usage too. However, the principle idea in using a sword is to generate the attributes associated with it - timing, reflex, muscle endurance etc..

You wouldn't really expect to jump rope in front of an assailant, but the benefit from the exercise can compliment your fighting ability.

[BillyJoe]

How about an axe?

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

http://www.thatwasrandom.com/random/images/25.jpg

[Wudang]

Meditating during the sword form? It's more commonly used to train precision in movement and jing. The sabre (dao) is probably the most useful for "the street"(TM) as it helps you wield or defend against most swing attacks - eg baseball bats. The spear is my all-round favourite though.

[GroundStrength]

Yes, the spear is very good for training fa-jing. I have been studying martial arts for 30 years, currently Xingyiquan.
The jings(jinns) are very real and are based on relaxed whole body power, chi has nothing at all to do with fighting.

I have seen many things that seem magical done by students of Hung I Hsiang, but they are all products of proper training of the tendons, ligaments and connective tissue and how to use the whole body during a movement.

For example:

I have had my arm pulled out of socket by an internal master using just his pinkies. (Ouch)

[Wudang]

I wish I could place the quote but years back someone on a mailing list I was on (neijia) quoted someone from Chenjiagou as saying "when those old guys talked about qi they meant leg strength". Just because it's the same word doesn't mean it's the same thing referred to. "I love my wife", "I love chocolate chip cookies" - anyone who doesn't realise I'm talking about quite different things there, qualitatively different, needs some serious therapy. And, uhhh, I'm not accepting a cookie from them. :eek:

[BillyJoe]

Your wife doesn't taste good?

[thaiboxerken]

http://www.worldkungfu.com/

This "Guy" here is an embarrassment to any real Silat and Kun Tao practitioners. Woo-woo describes him well.

[Hannibal]

Well the first of his "whip" videos looks like the reverse slap using the old shukokai "double hip" technique. The second is....well just deflection really. Seen it many times and never once had to ascribe anything mysterious to it. But then I guess it is less sellable if ANYONE can do it!