Ultimate Sniff Test for Homeopathy

[Ed]

And ... it fails. Forget the silly research, forget the "logic" of the preparation, forget the provings, forget the anecdotal reports. There is one overwhelming reason why the entire concept of homeopathy is completely and irretrieveably bogus.

I post a querry that I posted on a Homeo board

"Would a homeopathic preparation of a recreational drug work? What are the effects of such a preparation of cocaine or LSD or THC or even alcohol? One should be able to get high for very cheap, right? Since the amounts of the drug in the preparation would be virtually unobservable, there would be no legal problems. It seems to me that $20 worth of speed would be enough to get the eastern seaboard of the USA very, very high.

Why is this not being done? Given the profit motive, this is pretty telling.

The margin on dope is astronomical now. Imagine what it would be if this stuff really worked. Drug laws would be irrelevant (possession? Of what? Water?), There would be no dangerious importation problems, do a couple of dilutions in Columbia and "smuggle" it in in an Evian bottle. Drug sniffing dogs? Hell, give 'em a bath in the stuff and have enough left over to stone LA in perpetuity.

Is this being done? Ummmmmmmmmmm ..... no.

Why?

It dosen't fu*king work is why.

If it did, believe me, this would be happening. Does anyone doubt this? Would dealers not sully the sanctity of Homeopathy? Please.

The classic, textbook application of the sniff test.

[geni]

As any homeopath would point out what you are suggeting would have the oposite afect to the one you wanted. Since like cures like the prperations would make you come down from your high. What you need are chemicals that the oposite effect to the drugs you mention. For eample a posion that makes you feel realy grotty made into a homeopathic remerdy would give you a high (as well as makeing you very helthy) acording to homeopathic "logic"

[Ed]

Originally posted by geni
As any homeopath would point out what you are suggeting would have the oposite afect to the one you wanted. Since like cures like the prperations would make you come down from your high. What you need are chemicals that the oposite effect to the drugs you mention. For eample a posion that makes you feel realy grotty made into a homeopathic remerdy would give you a high (as well as makeing you very helthy) acording to homeopathic "logic"


I think not. I am not talking about a cure I am talking about a "proving".

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by geni
As any homeopath would point out what you are suggeting would have the oposite afect to the one you wanted. Since like cures like the prperations would make you come down from your high. What you need are chemicals that the oposite effect to the drugs you mention. For eample a posion that makes you feel realy grotty made into a homeopathic remerdy would give you a high (as well as makeing you very helthy) acording to homeopathic "logic"

You are quite wrong here. Homeopaths claim that if you take something that invokes the same result in your body as when you get the actual disease, then that will cure you.

E.g., what will make you vomit will cure your vomiting. What will make you shiver and feel hot, will cure your fever.

A fundamentally stupid assumption, I know....

[Diamond]

Originally posted by Ed

I think not. I am not talking about a cure I am talking about a "proving".

I've got an 18C supply of every hard drug known coming from my tap (American: faucet).

Does this count? :D

[geni]

So if I'm halucinting and take a LSD remerdy involing LSD I would stop halucinating but if I was not Halucination and took this remerdy I would start? Also does this mean that is I added a 0.001mg of arsnic to the water suppy everone would die? (do you think we could get OBL into homeopathy methods?)

[Ed]

Originally posted by Diamond


I've got an 18C supply of every hard drug known coming from my tap (American: faucet).

Does this count? :D

QED

(American: Yowsa)

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
You are quite wrong here. Homeopaths claim that if you take something that invokes the same result in your body as when you get the actual disease, then that will cure you.

E.g., what will make you vomit will cure your vomiting. What will make you shiver and feel hot, will cure your fever.

A fundamentally stupid assumption, I know....

I'd like to know what the homeopathic remedy for a papercut is? :D

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Ed
I think not. I am not talking about a cure I am talking about a "proving".
Oh, talk about the shortest distance between two points (a "straight line", in case you didn't get it ;) )?

I can't believe you haven't seen this. It's been the source of everything from hilarity to freaked-outedness to utter disgust in my little local homoeopathy-mocking group for a couple of weeks, since the url was given to one of us as (yes, I kid you not) the best example of really scientific, double-blinded, placebo-controlled provings being performed at the moment.

It is the final answer to anyone who doesn't believe that homoeopathy is essentially undiluted Sympathetic Magic (take a look at the Falcon one, for a start). To quote my friend, they'll be queueing up in droves for this stuff.

Homoeopathic provings of (among other things) LSD and heroin. (http://www.hominf.org/proving.htm)

Rolfe.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Claus said:You are quite wrong here. Homeopaths claim that if you take something that invokes the same result in your body as when you get the actual disease, then that will cure you.
So LSD produces certain symptoms. Call those symptoms a disease. Then if I take a homeopathic dose of LSD (which produces the same symptoms as LSD), it should cure the disease. I think Geni is correct.

I don't think there is any way to conjure up a homeopathic preparation that would give you a high, because being high is not a normal, healthy state of affairs. Unless you're high on life, of course. :D

~~ Paul

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Claus said:
So LSD produces certain symptoms. Call those symptoms a disease. Then if I take a homeopathic dose of LSD (which produces the same symptoms as LSD), it should cure the disease. I think Geni is correct.

No, I don't think so. I am fairly confident that you don't need to use the actual "ingredient" to cure the disease. Just something that produces the same effects in your body, e.g. like shivering or sneezing.

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
I don't think there is any way to conjure up a homeopathic preparation that would give you a high, because being high is not a normal, healthy state of affairs. Unless you're high on life, of course. :D

Or skepticism! :D

[Rolfe]

Homoeopathic proving of LSD (http://www.hominf.org/lsd/lsdframe.htm).

Don't miss it. There's a whole other reality out there.

Rolfe.

[BTox]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


No, I don't think so. I am fairly confident that you don't need to use the actual "ingredient" to cure the disease. Just something that produces the same effects in your body, e.g. like shivering or sneezing.



Or skepticism! :D

Not always. Remember the most recent study from India someone posted here a few days ago. Reports that homeopathic arsenic ameliorates the effects of arsenic toxicity, at least in mice. So by this "logic", homeopathic LSD would be used to reduce the symptoms of a bad trip.

Of course, the notion that homeopathy needs a sniff test in the first place is nonsense. I don't need a sniff test to tell me what the stinking, brown piles in a cow field are ;)

[Liamo]

That is one great website!
At the School we have achieved results using a variety of stimuli: using material substance, by holding it, looking at it, meditating upon it, as well as with the 30th to 200th potencies. We have invoked group provings by one member 'holding' the concept/image of a thing. We have carried out all our provings with unit doses. This stimulus, perhaps because it is amplified by the many coexperiencers, and its 'reawakening' at monthly 'gatherings' when experiences are recounted, is sufficient to produce long range effects
http://www.hominf.org/lsd/lsdframe.htm

Back to how a proving is supposed to work: in this 'study', homeopathic dilutions of 30C are reported to cause symptoms. So a) if you are on LSD, 30C LSD will cure the symptoms b) if you are not on LSD, 30C LSD will cause the symptoms.

Is that right?

Liam

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by BTox
Not always. Remember the most recent study from India someone posted here a few days ago. Reports that homeopathic arsenic ameliorates the effects of arsenic toxicity, at least in mice. So by this "logic", homeopathic LSD would be used to reduce the symptoms of a bad trip.

I didn't see the study, but if the report claims this, then I stand corrected. It would not be the first time the claims in woowoo land changed...only one thing is constant: The lack of evidence.

I do take strong offense at your use of the word "logic". You know that "logic" and "homeopathy" has nothing to do with each other! How dare you! :mad: :wink:

Originally posted by BTox
Of course, the notion that homeopathy needs a sniff test in the first place is nonsense. I don't need a sniff test to tell me what the stinking, brown piles in a cow field are ;)

Ah, but you would be unable to determine what the homeopath(et)ic remedy made from cow dung would contain anyway, because there's nothing left! :)

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Liamo
That is one great website!

http://www.hominf.org/lsd/lsdframe.htm

Back to how a proving is supposed to work: in this 'study', homeopathic dilutions of 30C are reported to cause symptoms. So a) if you are on LSD, 30C LSD will cure the symptoms b) if you are not on LSD, 30C LSD will cause the symptoms.

Is that right?

Liam

Oh, it's fabulous. Except when they get right close and personal and start describing their urine, stools and menses in graphic detail....

I don't think they're looking at the 30C LSD to cure anything associated with LSD. In fact, they don't seem to have any cures associated with this one at all - still, it's obviously early days. ;) The way this works is that they interview a patient in minute detail (including all sorts of apparently irrelevant personal detail), then they try to match up this slew of self-obsessed drivel with the slew of self-obsessed drivel recorded during the provings, and the one that matches best is the remedy they pick.

The snag is that they have so much intimate detail that you can collate it into practically anything you like. It's not a sniff away from casting a spell, really.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by BTox
Not always. Remember the most recent study from India someone posted here a few days ago. Reports that homeopathic arsenic ameliorates the effects of arsenic toxicity, at least in mice. So by this "logic", homeopathic LSD would be used to reduce the symptoms of a bad trip.
Nah. I think I posted on that at the time. Using SAD (serial agitated dilution) arsenic to cure arsenic poisoning isn't homoeopathy, it's isopathy. Hahnemann himself specifically said that it DIDN'T work like that. By his theory, SAD arsenic would cure salmonellosis, but NOT arsenic poisoning. The India guys are a bit off base with their basic theory.

What happens medically is that homoeopaths promote things called "nosodes" as a sort of vaccine against a disease - these are prepared from patients who actually have the disease, so it sounds a bit like vaccination, but as there is (thankfully) nothing in the remedies, this is a false analogy. However, it's a very popular pastime among the homoeopathic community, and among the anti-vaccine nutcases.

To be fair, the actual medically-qualified homoeopaths have rejected this, and support real vaccines (I suspect they realise they might get struck off otherwise), but the veterinary homoeopaths are very mealy-mouthed about it and one of their leaders is really into nosodes.

Then, and this is the really good bit, when there is as story about the nosodes not working (which happens with depressing regularity), they then come out and say that this isn't homoeopathy at all, it's isopathy, Hahnemann didn't advocate it, so it ain't nothing to do with us, mate.

You couldn't make it up.

Rolfe.

[epepke]

Originally posted by geni
As any homeopath would point out what you are suggeting would have the oposite afect to the one you wanted. Since like cures like the prperations would make you come down from your high. What you need are chemicals that the oposite effect to the drugs you mention. For eample a posion that makes you feel realy grotty made into a homeopathic remerdy would give you a high (as well as makeing you very helthy) acording to homeopathic "logic"

Not really. Homeopathic methamphetamines should function like heroin and vice versa. Homeopathic cocaine should function like marijuana and vice versa. Homeopathic benzodiazepines should function like antidepressants and vice versa. Homeopathic coffee should function like alcohol and vice versa.

[athon]

You're all still forgetting that it is a negation of symptoms, not a prompting of them. So if you are on a high, a proven hit of heroin will bring you down. On its own it would do nothing.

The big 'H' himself used quinine (which brings on a slight fever) to cure a fever as a test for his pseudoscience. The proven dilution itself does nothing on its own - it negates a symptom in its effect.

Of course it all falls apart when questions get asked, such as 'what constitutes a symptom that can be negated?'. But that's why it's a pseudoscience, afterall.

Athon

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by athon
The big 'H' himself used quinine (which brings on a slight fever) to cure a fever as a test for his pseudoscience. The proven dilution itself does nothing on its own - it negates a symptom in its effect.
The fun bit is that quinine (well, it was actually cinchona bark, not quinine as such, which hadn't been isolated then) doesn't cause fever in anybody else who's ever taken it. It seems Hahnemann had an idiosyncratic reaction to the stuff. Probably some sort of allergic reaction. (http://www.angelfire.com/mb2/quinine/allergy.html). And that's the source of the whole heap of nonsense!

The other nonsensical part is that although Hahnemann originally used real substances in his provings, he had problems with toxicity and went on to doing the provings themselves on 30C dilutions. The homoeopaths keep very quiet about this for some reason, and even in the famous Horizon broadcast Peter Fisher explained the theory by reminding us that chopping an onion makes your eyes water (therefore homoeopathic onion is the treatment for colds and flu) - he didn't at any point reveal that the important part was really whether a 30C preparation of onion made you hallucinate, or constipated, or whatever these maniac "provers" dream up.

But that web site reveals not only that the provings are done on dilute water, but that the whole ethos is a magical one, and that the provings are the most ridiculous heap of self-obsessed maunderings you could possibly imagine.

I think athon and epepke are trying to make this more rational than it actually is. I've debated this with homoeopaths, taking the positions athon and epepke are presenting, only to be told that my opinions are rubbish because clearly I haven't studied homoeopathy if I think that's how it works. I'm then treated to a lecture on how it does work, according to them, which simply leaves me gasping "But that's far madder than I realised - how can you possibly deny that you're practising magic?"

And this from professional colleagues, too. It would make you weep.

Rolfe.

[Quasi]

Don't forget that Homeopathy has so many back doors that allow believers to come up with an excuse, or explanation for any failure or question of their theology. Its the same with christianity, where the argument boils down to "I just have faith." In homeopathy it is "I just know it works, so there."

[epepke]

Originally posted by Rolfe
[B]I think athon and epepke are trying to make this more rational than it actually is. I've debated this with homoeopaths, taking the positions athon and epepke are presenting, only to be told that my opinions are rubbish because clearly I haven't studied homoeopathy if I think that's how it works.

As for myself, I'm just making fun of them, in my dessicated sort of way. Trying to argue rationally with people who are in love with their thought disorders is like trying to teach a pig to sing. I have no hopes of getting rid of homeopathy; I simply hope that it's possible to get labeling laws changed so that this stuff will only appeal to those for whom it will serve a valuable eugenic function. There's only so much that one can afford to lose sleep over.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by epepke
Trying to argue rationally with people who are in love with their thought disorders is like trying to teach a pig to sing. I have no hopes of getting rid of homeopathy; I simply hope that it's possible to get labeling laws changed so that this stuff will only appeal to those for whom it will serve a valuable eugenic function.
My own hope (faint though it may be) is to raise awareness within my own profession of just how irrationally magical the thinking behind this is, and so promote a climate of disapproval of the "diplomatic immunity" currently accorded to colleagues who have taken leave of their senses and are peddling homoeopathy within the profession.

If I hear "well, we all use unlicensed and off-label medicines from time to time, and we must keep an open mind," one more time, I may not be responsible for my actions.

:mad:

Rolfe.