Natural Pet Food May Kill Pets

[Jeff Corey]

According to a report on KPIX in San Francisco, a number of pets in the Bay area have succumbed to liver damage after being fed an "All-natural, organic" dog or cat food. My daughter's friend Bridget's dog was one of them. I sent a video clip to Mr. Randi.
The link: http://kpix.dayport.com/launcher/7/19/
Check the second video down on the upper right, "More Deaths Linked to High-End Pet food".

[SteveGrenard]

I can't get this video to open on my computer. Can you tell us the name of this dog food and what its problem is?

Is this a national brand? If so why are Bay Area pets only dying from it? Could it have been a contaminated batch or is the problem more widespread?


Thanks.

[Ed]

Is there something Psironic about critters in SF dieing from something you get from a can?

[SteveGrenard]

Originally posted by Ed
Is there something Psironic about critters in SF dieing from something you get from a can?

Since the name of this forum is "General Skepticism and the Paranormal" you might
think that Corey feels this report is either open to skepticism or ...... is or isn't paranormal in some way.

Again what is the name of the dog food and what, if anything, has been the mechanism causing these deaths. ?

It is a serious question. Thanks

[Ed]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard


Since the name of this forum is "General Skepticism and the Paranormal" you might
think that Corey feels this report is either open to skepticism or ...... is or isn't paranormal in some way.

Again what is the name of the dog food and what, if anything, has been the mechanism causing these deaths. ?

It is a serious question. Thanks

No, no ... this is a clever jape at the widely held belief that SF is the Gay capitol of the US. See, they are dieing from something that they get from a "can"? Get it? A bit of tasteful AIDS humor.

Obviously far too subtle.

[SteveGrenard]

Not that clever. Just poor taste (pun intended) coming from you.

If you go to the website Corey posted you will find the described video clip. I was unable to get it to open. It said there was a conflict between MS Viewer and whatever viewer it wanted us to use.

So Professor, whats the name of the dog food? Do they say whats in it thats killing these pooches? Thank you again.

[Pyrrho]

Steve, the dog food is the "Go! Natural" brand from Petcurean. The afflicted dogs have been diagnosed with liver problems. Petcurean has a toll-free number set up for questions. The food in question was produced in Texas; the food has been voluntarily recalled by the manufacturer. They don't yet know what the problem is.

http://www.petcurean.com/recall.html

Link to contents of the food:

http://www.petcurean.com/product_table.html

[Jeff Corey]

Petcurean Go! Natural pet foods have been recalled by the B. C. based company. Thirteen pets have died in the Bay Area and symptoms include rashes and liver dysfunction attributed by vets to the food.

This was an extremely high priced pet food that was advertized as "all natural" and "organic" and was bought by people who wanted the best for their pet.

And it came in bags, not in cans, Ed.

(Edited to add) And Pyrrho beat me to it, here.

[Pyrrho]

Another ingredients link: this is a PDF file.

http://www.petcurean.com/PDFs/go_natural_dog.pdf

[SteveGrenard]

Thanks Pyrrho. This has enabled me to research this further in order to share data so far w/others. The problem appears to be contamination with heavy metals. Here is a post that apparently preceded the recall which was finally done by the mfg.
It is cross posted here by specific request of the originator who lost several dogs fed this product:

w.craigslist.org > san francisco > pets > Go Natural Pet Foods WARNING !! (more information)
last modified: Thu, 23 Oct 19:16

please flag with care : [miscategorized] [prohibited] [spam] [discussion] [best of]

email this posting to a friend
Go Natural Pet Foods WARNING !! (more information)
Reply to: see below
Date: 2003-10-23, 7:16PM



Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:52:38 -0700
From: Debbie & Chuck
Subject: GO NATURAL DOG FOOD ANSWERS FROM TESTS

PLEASE CROSS-POST SO THAT ALL PEOPLE WHO GOT THE FIRST POSTING ON THIS FOOD
NOW HAS THE SAME ANSWERS I NOW HAVE.

As of today I received confirmation of the levels of heavy metals in the
Go Natural dog food we had independently tested. Those tests reveal
high levels of the following heavy metals:

Metal Normal PPM Go Natural Dog Food Tested
Copper 7-10 ppm 42.4 ppm
Iron 140 ppm 431 ppm
Zinc 80-130 ppm 625 ppm

The University of Missouri, in conjunction with the University of
Michigan, who performed the testing, reported on these metal contents as
follows:

"What appeared to be the most significant was that Iron (Fe), copper
(Cu), and zinc (Zn) were all present in concentrations significantly
greater than what is reported to be normal in canine diets. The
concentrations of Fe, Cu, and Zn in this sample of dog food were 431
ppm, 42.4 ppm, and 625 ppm respectively. The normal ranges for these
three metals are reported to be 140 ppm, 7 to 10 ppm, and 80 to 130 ppm
respectively".

Also detected, but not felt significant at this juncture was an
insecticide of ant origin called Iridomyrmecin. The report stated as
follows:

"A sample of dog food was sent to the Animal Health Diagnostic
Laboratory for GC-MS analysis. Iridomyrmecin was detected in the dog
food by a computer match only. Little is known about this compound
other than it is an insecticide of ant origin. Further testing can be
done to determine the amount of this compound in the dog food, but its
significance, at least for the time-being, is presumably less than the
measured concentrations of Fe, Cu, and Zn in this dog food."

It was recommended "it may be advisable to consult with a canine
nutritionist on the significance of some of these concentrations of metals."

The findings of the lab are in alignment with the heavy metals test
performed on our 2 1/2 year old who is ill. She had elevated copper and
iron levels. Iron being
the highest concentration level. She is being tested again tomorrow to
see to what degree the heavy metals are leaving her body.

Although Petcurean is still not willing to admit that they have a
problem with their food (at least not to me) they have stated, both to
myself and other individuals, they have done a complete voluntary recall
of all products made at the Hereford, Texas plant which started
manufacturing food for them in July of this year. To date, I have seen
nothing publicly posted of this recall. It was reported to the vet in
Oakland that the recall would be on the news tonight - I waited until
after the last news tonight to see if I found anything but I did not - I
am not sure what area that was done in - if in fact it was done.
Someone needs to inform their distributors that all products have been
pulled because as of this afternoon I know of one distributor who wasn't
informed of this occurring.

I am aware there are still those who wish to "cooperate" with the dog
food manufacturer and give them the "benefit of the doubt". However, I
am finding this extremely difficult after three dead dogs, one other dog
still not recovered and may never be "recovered", five other dogs
testing strange. You add this to the false statements that they have
perpetuated such as a virus is what our dogs died of - such as I am a
disgruntled breeder who they would not give away free food to (and they
say we have done this before to other dog food companies) - the
intimidation factor of one breeder that by doing what I am doing that we
are "through in the dog world", etc. I don't find it very easy to
"cooperate" with them any further. I will leave that to others. If
they were cooperating they would have had their testing done by now,
they would have pulled their food before they had 12 confirmed dead and
they wouldn't be spreading their false statements.

We informed Petcurean of these test results within half an hour of
getting them - in one final attempt to cooperate - immediately after
talking to them they called another individual who is cooperating with
them - informed that individual of our findings - that cooperating
individual then contacted the University of Missouri and informed them I
was saying there were lethal doses of rat poisoning in the food. At NO
time was the term "rat poisoning" ever mentioned in our conversation
with any individual. Not sure if this is a case of someone not
realizing the information would get back to me promptly, if it was
someone trying to play games with test results, the dog food
manufacturer setting up the other individual to see where loyalties
laid, or just a simple case of the old game of "telephone" where you can
tell one person something, who tells another, who tells another, and at
the end the story is completely different. I would hope for the love
of dogs it was the last.

From the start I have said if my posting saved one animal from dying or
one owner from going through what we went through, then it is worth any
price to pay be it in the world of showing dogs or a law suit from the
pet food company - it would be worth it. Well I got that today when
someone wrote to me, that I had not previously heard from, and said they
had lost one dog (mysterious unknown liver disorder) before they saw my
post and they took their other dog off of Go Natural when they read my
post. They figured "why take a chance". That dog is fine and doing
well. It is a boxer who is in a pet home in the Bay area. It was worth
it!!!!! So those who want to can try and destroy me in the dog world
(what is left after the unnecessary destruction of four of our dogs) -
or the pet food company can sue me. The first question I will have to
ask is what portion of my deceased dogs do they want if they prevail?

Petcurean confirmed today that they have 12 dogs that have died that
were eating Go Natural. I do not believe this count includes the
notification I got tonight of a few more. Petcuran also informed me
that they still do not have their "heavy metals" testing back yet. They
have had 5 weeks to do so. Petcurean has also confirmed that they will
be contacting the insurance company of the plant in Hereford, Texas that
manufactured the food. When I asked who their agent for service was in
the United States they informed me that we would have to serve any
complaint on the "distributor". Really confused here - what does the
distributor have to do with the "contents" of the food? They receive
sealed bags, they resell those bags - where is their liability?

I am looking for an independent canine nutritionist if anyone can refer
one please contact me privately. This is the next and final step in
connecting the dots in the death of our dogs (and it is believed
others). Since Petcurean is receiving copies of all of my posts from
someone, please make your responses to this inquiry for a referral private.

Thank you for sharing in the tragedy and unnecessary death and illnesses
of our dogs, the e-mails of support, prayers and sympathy have truly
been comforting. There is light at the end of the tunnel as to what
happened to our dogs - hopefully soon they will be able to rest in peace.

[Jeff Corey]

This looks like one of those days where links don't work.
Maybe if I fashion a aluminium yamulke for my CPU?

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
This looks like one of those days where links don't work.
Maybe if I fashion a aluminium yamulke for my CPU?
Link worked ok for me, but you can't always predict how certain embedded video will work on a given machine. I wouldn't be able to play it at work, where things like Flash and Real Video are forbidden.

[Pyrrho]

Well, those metals concentrations would pretty much do the deed. I have no idea how dog food is manufactured, and I'm unaware of any restrictions on what dog food can or cannot be labeled "all natural", but it does seem odd that an "organic, all natural" food would have such high concentrations of those metals. Something wrong in the additives process, probably.

[Jeff Corey]

The product name is exremely ironic (or is it psironic). "Go! Natural!"
I don't want my dogs and cats to "go" right yet. I'll stick with Iams
TM.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
The product name is exremely ironic (or is it psironic). "Go! Natural!"
I don't want my dogs and cats to "go" right yet. I'll stick with Iams
TM.
Hm. Ironic. They don't make any paranormal claims about the food, just that it's organic and all natural, although the PDF I cited does have a couple of statements about the healthful properties of some of the minor ingredients, such as "Ginger - prevents gas and tightens the tissues." Not to make light of this serious problem, but I've always wondered about the pet foods that claim to be "better tasting". How do they know?

[SteveGrenard]

Er, they tasted it?

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Er, they tasted it?
Well, yeah, but does it taste better to the dog?

[SteveGrenard]

I dunno. Ask the dog. Maybe they did preference or comparison tests with dogs. Maybe they used Ed's sniff test, allowing dogs to sniff their food and Brand X and see which they preferred or ate first.

My dog does this all the time when offered a choice. At special treats holiday time, he'll eat the turkey first and the stuffing or potatoes afterwards ....well, when he figures he is not getting any more turkey.

[Pyrrho]

Yeah...my dog always preferred my food to her food. Learned real quick not to give her any table scraps, just made her that much more obsessive. Finding your 40-lb dog standing on your dining room table with her face in the dinner is a definite clue that the dog/human boundaries have been violated.

[SteveGrenard]

At 96 pounds mine doesnt jump on the table but he will sit next to you on the floor and I swear it, as he salivates and looks intently at each forkful of your food he rapidly shakes his head in a nod. I have no idea where he learned this except by watching people nod assent.

[Pyrrho]

Interesting link:

What's really in pet food

http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=79

...and, for the culinary artists, this link:

http://www.doggieconnection.com/recipe/

Anyone for Labrador Loaf? :D

[Rolfe]

Iron and copper sound like unlikely culprits for food toxicity.

It's very difficult indeed (in fact I'll stick my neck out and say impossible) to get iron toxicity by the oral route, and although one breed of dog (Bedlingtons) has a hereditary copper storage problem which can kill, copper isn't normally a dietary concern with dogs. And there are analytical reasons why these claims are a bit suspect too. Zinc, also - there is more concern with deficiency than poisoning with this one, too.

The food sounds distinctly suspect, but I have my doubts whether any of these three minerals is the actual cause of the deaths. The university labs have reported unusually high amounts present, but note that they don't seem to be saying that this is actually the dangerous thing.

I think there is more to come out here as more testing gets done. There's no doubt that unscrupulous people jumping on the "natural" bandwagon and rejecting the scientific advances which have enabled safe, nutritious convenience pet food to be cheaply marketed are capable of causing all sorts of trouble. But I doubt if iron, copper or zinc are the primary cause of death.

Rolfe.

[Iamme]

Rolfe---Iron in too high a dosage can be toxic...especially for small children. It says this right on some labels. That said, I could SURELY see how iron could be toxic for a small pet. Too much vitamin A can be toxic also. So, i would imagine thqat many supposedly natural things could be toxic in large dosages. My aunt turned turned orange from eating too many carrots...er, drinking them.

Hi Jeff. Good 'paranormal' topic.:wink: Well...what the hey. A thread in philosophy is questioned, that has to do with 'getting married'. :(

[Rolfe]

Oh yes, vitamin A toxicity is well recognised. But I don't think this is about that (vitamin A toxicity is mainly confined to cats which refuse to eat anything but fresh liver).

Iron and little kids is really a question of children eating their mother's iron tablets. For the adult, the sort of iron you might get in a diet should be insignificant. The excess just won't be absorbed.

I suspect there's some sort of more complex toxin in this stuff. Either a genuine contaminant poison, or a bacterial or fungal toxin caused by insufficient attention to food hygeine.

Rolfe.

[Ed]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
I dunno. Ask the dog. Maybe they did preference or comparison tests with dogs. Maybe they used Ed's sniff test, allowing dogs to sniff their food and Brand X and see which they preferred or ate first.



One funny aside. Marketing people (and agency people too) sorta have an obligation to use the product that they are on. The pet food folks, yup, taste their products too.

I never worked on pet food, just send pallets to the local old folks home:D

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Oh yes, vitamin A toxicity is well recognised. But I don't think this is about that (vitamin A toxicity is mainly confined to cats which refuse to eat anything but fresh liver).

Iron and little kids is really a question of children eating their mother's iron tablets. For the adult, the sort of iron you might get in a diet should be insignificant. The excess just won't be absorbed.

I suspect there's some sort of more complex toxin in this stuff. Either a genuine contaminant poison, or a bacterial or fungal toxin caused by insufficient attention to food hygeine.

Rolfe.
They did find a certain amount of insecticide but felt it wasn't a concern. What kinds of things cause liver dysfunction?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Pyrrho

They did find a certain amount of insecticide but felt it wasn't a concern. What kinds of things cause liver dysfunction?
That's something just about any toxin would be likely to do. Organophosphorus, organochlorine, clostridial, aspergillus, might be something quite unusual actually, as they don't really seem to have an answer yet.

Copper toxicity does go for the liver too, but as I said, that explanation doesn't really make sense. But if someone competent has been able to do a detailed post mortem on one of the deceased, I'd put money on them getting to the bottom of it sooner or later. Histopathology of the liver would be very informative, but you'd also want to do actual liver copper assay, and look for anything else you think might be a concern. If there's commercial pet food involved, cost probably won't be an issue, and all these things can be assayed for if someone pays.

Give a vet college path department a body and a sample of the food, and wait, I reckon. I've asked about this on a veterinary list where most of the participants are American and many are specifically interested in this subject, and I'll pass on any more info that comes out.

Rolfe.

[Jeff Corey]

I think Michael Moore ought to find a bag of Go!Natural from Texas that hasn't been recalled and go up to Petcurean in BC and see if the head suits would nosh a bit.

And I understand that the parent company, Peoplecurean, is test marketing a new product under their spinoff company, Babycurean.

This is an all natural and organic baby food. That, like their pet food, is derived from waste products from stockyards
.
The rumor about the abortion clinics is an attempt on the part of their competitors to slander them.

[Quasi]

Since people involved in the "Natural" and "Organic" movement do not recognize anything they view as natural is bad, this should not be surprising. Essentially they keep out things which are good for you, (like preservatives,) claim they are bad, then do all sorts of whacky things, like putting blue green algae in "healthy" products. BG algae is known to release micotoxins, some of the most potent carcinogens known.

[SteveGrenard]

Actually mycotoxins (spelling) are toxins that occur in moulds or fungi that grow on foodstuffs including food and other products humans and animals can ingest.


The blue-green algae are associated with cyano-bacteria which is where they get their color from and are also highly toxic. Chief bacteria of this group is Microcystis aeruginosa which was previously called Pseudomonas aerusginosa and before that decades ago it was called something else.


Algae in the genera Nostoc, Oscillatoria, Anabaena, and especially Microcystis produce hepatotoxic cyclic peptides.

These toxins act to disrupt the structure of liver cells, causing severe hemorrhage and necrosis or tissue death, leading to shock and death within hours.

I think the toxin you may have been thinking of is microcystin which is the most common of the hepatotoxins in toxic blooms. It has a mouse LD50 of of less than 100 micrograms/kg.

Microcystins do produce liver damage.

Anabaena, Aphanizomenon and ome species of Oscillatoria give off fast acting alkaloid neurotoxins.


Anatoxin-a acts by causing permanent depolarization of post- synaptic membranes, blocking nerve conduction and leading to muscle tremors, rigidity, paralysis, and death by respiratory arrest often within minutes.

Anatoxin-a (s) is a cholinesterase inhibitor that works in a way similar to organophosphorus insecticides. In fact it is the only natural cholinesterase inhibitor known.

The last neurotoxins of this group, the aphanitoxins, act by blocking sodium channels, which block nerve conduction.

These toxins appear to be identical to the saxitoxins, substances which cause paralytic shellfish poisoning in humans.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Interesting link:

What's really in pet food

http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=79

...

That's one of many woowoo pet sites, chock full of misinformation. There are many more.

[Boo]

Glad I chose to with the Raw diet. Of course a 7 month Dane will go through 40lbs of chicken necks in just over two weeks. Cheaper then any decent bag stuff out there though.

Jeff, I will check with some of the Dane boards and make sure this info gets passed around.


Boo

[BTox]

Originally posted by Boo
Glad I chose to with the Raw diet. Of course a 7 month Dane will go through 40lbs of chicken necks in just over two weeks. Cheaper then any decent bag stuff out there though.

Jeff, I will check with some of the Dane boards and make sure this info gets passed around.


Boo

BARF diet? More woowoo pet care...

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
This looks like one of those days where links don't work.
Maybe if I fashion a aluminium yamulke for my CPU?

The "tinfoil hat" could take the form of a yarmulke, a stetson, a bowler, or whatever style of headgear you please. Even a Yassir Arafat style deesh ta'oul.

But it must be made of tin, not aluminum. The notion that you can fashion an effective tinfoil hat from aluminum foil is a lie of the Aluminati.

[Boo]

Originally posted by BTox


BARF diet? More woowoo pet care...


Gee, never thought that good vet care and feeding my dog something besides processed chicken by-products and ground corn was woo-woo.


Boo

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Boo
Gee, never thought that good vet care and feeding my dog something besides processed chicken by-products and ground corn was woo-woo.
If you've got a vet who tells you that feeding dogs raw food and bones is healthier than commercial pet foods, I'd seriously re-evaluate your definition of "good".

Just finished a long and acrimonious discussion of this on a vet list (vets on one side, dog owners making baseless woo-woo claims like "my dog doesn't smell because I feed it raw food" on the other), and one really nasty story sticks in my mind.

Little dog fed this evil BARF diet who had to be operated on several times for bones lodged in the intestine. Now that alone is nasty, because major abdominal surgery is no picnic. However, in the end one bone mishap too many, and the dog didn't make it. Other woo-woos on the pro-raw-food email list comforted the distraught owner by saying, at least you have the comfort of knowing that while he was alive you fed him the best diet possible.

:mad:

Rolfe.

[wayrad]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Actually mycotoxins (spelling) are toxins that occur in moulds or fungi that grow on foodstuffs including food and other products humans and animals can ingest.


The blue-green algae are associated with cyano-bacteria which is where they get their color from and are also highly toxic. Chief bacteria of this group is Microcystis aeruginosa which was previously called Pseudomonas aerusginosa and before that decades ago it was called something else.


Algae in the genera Nostoc, Oscillatoria, Anabaena, and especially Microcystis produce hepatotoxic cyclic peptides.

These toxins act to disrupt the structure of liver cells, causing severe hemorrhage and necrosis or tissue death, leading to shock and death within hours.

I think the toxin you may have been thinking of is microcystin which is the most common of the hepatotoxins in toxic blooms. It has a mouse LD50 of of less than 100 micrograms/kg.

Microcystins do produce liver damage.

Anabaena, Aphanizomenon and ome species of Oscillatoria give off fast acting alkaloid neurotoxins.


Anatoxin-a acts by causing permanent depolarization of post- synaptic membranes, blocking nerve conduction and leading to muscle tremors, rigidity, paralysis, and death by respiratory arrest often within minutes.

Anatoxin-a (s) is a cholinesterase inhibitor that works in a way similar to organophosphorus insecticides. In fact it is the only natural cholinesterase inhibitor known.

The last neurotoxins of this group, the aphanitoxins, act by blocking sodium channels, which block nerve conduction.

These toxins appear to be identical to the saxitoxins, substances which cause paralytic shellfish poisoning in humans. Cyanobacteria are not "associated with" blue-green algae. They ARE (or were) blue-green algae. They are no longer considered algae because they are prokaryotes (i.e. they lack a cell nucleus and hence are more similar to photosynthetic bacteria than to algae). Microcystis aeruginosa (NOT aerusginosa) is a completely different organism from Pseudomonas aeruginosa (a common nonphotosynthetic bacterium).

In fact, few of the cyanobacteria are actually toxic. In the genera in which it does occur, toxicity tends to be confined to a few species, and is not seen under all growth conditions. Under certain conditions, toxin-producing cyanoobacteria can form "blooms" or scums in water, leading to off-tastes and odors, or even livestock kills in some cases. Microcystis contamination is also a potential problem in the common cyanobacterial health supplement Spirulina, and considerable attention is devoted to guarding against it during cultivation and processing.

Microtoxin and anatoxin, by the way, are NOT "identical" to saxitoxin. This can readily be determined by a visit to
http://www-cyanosite.bio.purdue.edu/cyanotox/cyanotox.html
I recommend this site to anyone who wants accurate information on this topic.

[SteveGrenard]

Gez, I wonder then why I have been treating all these necrotizing pneumonias
for so long if these organisms are not toxic. The enzymes secreted by Pseudomonas are certainly toxic in my book or they would not necrotize the lungs of people with this type of pneumonia. I agree that Microsytis is in fact blue-green algae by common parlance and imparts the color. The problem is this organism, a typical "water bug" is Microcystis, always has been and that it contaminates foodstuffs. Back in the 1950s Pseudomonas was also known as
pyocyaneus or some such name, also blue green in color and still imparting that slight coloration to the purulent material it produces in tissues it effects.

[wayrad]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Gez, I wonder then why I have been treating all these necrotizing pneumonias
for so long if these organisms are not toxic. The enzymes secreted by Pseudomonas are certainly toxic in my book or they would not necrotize the lungs of people with this type of pneumonia. I agree that Microsytis is in fact blue-green algae by common parlance and imparts the color. The problem is this organism, a typical "water bug" is Microcystis, always has been and that it contaminates foodstuffs. Back in the 1950s Pseudomonas was also known as
pyocyaneus or some such name, also blue green in color and still imparting that slight coloration to the purulent material it produces in tissues it effects.
I repeat, Pseudomonas is not a cyanobacterium. Not in any way, shape, form or manner.

[SteveGrenard]

I repeat, it is. I did not need the following authors to tell me this but perhaps you do. As I said I have been dealing, actually fighting with this bug for a long time. on a clinical level.
If it smells like a cyanobacterium, and it looks like a cyanobacterium oh well, then perhaps in some way, shape, form or manner as you say, then it is a cyanobacterium.



J Mol Evol. 2000 Sep;51(3):205-13.


A new appraisal of the prokaryotic origin of eukaryotic phytochromes.

Herdman M, Coursin T, Rippka R, Houmard J, Tandeau de Marsac N.

Unite de Physiologie Microbienne (CNRS URA 2172), Institut Pasteur, 28 Rue du Dr. Roux, 75724 Paris Cedex 15, France. mherdman@pasteur.fr

The evolutionary origin of the phytochromes of eukaryotes is controversial. Three cyanobacterial proteins have been described as "phytochrome-like" and have been suggested to be potential ancestors of these essential photoreceptors: Cph1 from Synechocystis PCC 6803, showing homology to phytochromes along its entire length and known to attach a chromophore; and PlpA from Synechocystis PCC 6803 and RcaE from Fremyella diplosiphon, both showing homology to phytochromes most strongly only in the C-terminal region and not known to bind a chromophore. We have reexamined the evolution of the photoreceptors using for PCR amplification a highly conserved region encoding the chromophore-binding domain in both Cph1 and phytochromes of plants and have identified genes for phytochrome-like proteins (PLP) in 11 very diverse cyanobacteria. The predicted gene products contain either a Cys, Arg, Ile, or Leu residue at the putative chromophore binding site. In 10 of the strains examined only a single gene was found, but in Calothrix PCC 7601 two genes (cphA and cphB) were identified. Phylogenetic analysis revealed that genes encoding PLP are homologues that share a common ancestor with the phytochromes of eukaryotes and diverged before the latter. In contrast, the putative sensory/regulatory proteins, including PlpA and RcaE, that lack a part of the chromophore lyase domain essential for chromophore attachment on the apophytochrome, are only distantly related to phytochromes.

The Ppr protein of the anoxygenic photosynthetic bacterium Rhodospirillum centenum and the bacterial phytochrome-like proteins (BphP) of Deinococcus radiodurans and
Pseudomonas aeruginosa fall within the cluster of cyanobacterial phytochromes.

sg note:
(Boldface is mine, not in orig abstract)


You need to understand that the nomenclature for bacterial organisms keeps changing as well. Bacillus pyocyaneus, for example, is still used in some parts of the world where such nomenclatural changes have not been accepted or completely accepted. A neat example of this is Russia, up to the 90s.

If you enter Bacillus pyocyaneus or just plain old pyocyaneus into MedLine you will find the nomenclature used interchangeably with Pseudomonas. Here is a brief example:

Biull Eksp Biol Med. 1990 May;109(5):453-6.

[Significance of characteristics of microorganisms in the pathogenesis B. pyocyaneus infection (an experimental study)]

[Article in Russian]

Teplikov VG, Kaem RI, Vtiurin BV, Skuba ND, Panova NV, Bogatova IS.

The experimental Pseudomonas Sepsis was induced by various strains. Biological features of these strains were different and various forms of sepsis were induced. The authors suggested that biological features of microorganisms cause the development of different and various forms of sepsis.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Rolfe

If you've got a vet who tells you that feeding dogs raw food and bones is healthier than commercial pet foods, I'd seriously re-evaluate your definition of "good".

Just finished a long and acrimonious discussion of this on a vet list (vets on one side, dog owners making baseless woo-woo claims like "my dog doesn't smell because I feed it raw food" on the other), and one really nasty story sticks in my mind.

Little dog fed this evil BARF diet who had to be operated on several times for bones lodged in the intestine. Now that alone is nasty, because major abdominal surgery is no picnic. However, in the end one bone mishap too many, and the dog didn't make it. Other woo-woos on the pro-raw-food email list comforted the distraught owner by saying, at least you have the comfort of knowing that while he was alive you fed him the best diet possible.

:mad:

Rolfe.
Having had to clean up dozens of pools of dog vomit containing pieces of bone the dogs had somehow got hold of, there is no way I ever knowingly or voluntarily fed bones to a dog. Poultry bones splinter; pork bones break into chunks; beef bones, well, never did run into that problem, except the time I had to saw a round steak bone off a dog's jaw. Raw meat? Never. Run the same risk of bacteria a human would run, eating raw meat. Besides, I don't want the dog thinking the steak I brought home is ever gonna be for him.

[SteveGrenard]

Let me tell the audience here what is going on re saxitoxins and microcystins.
There are researchers who say they have evolved to act in a similar way and are therefore very dangerous. There are commercial interests who use what they consider small, safe levels of "blue-green algae" in foodstuffs and supplements and who use hired guns from big institutions (e.g. CalTech) to
advance their case that there is nothing to worry about . Fair enough. But there are some toxinologists who counsel otherwise and believe the toxins from so called blue-green algae which yes, are really bacteria (Microcystis and others for example) can or have evolved to produce toxins like or very similar saxitoxins and produce symtoms akin to paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP) which would not be a good thing for them. Are we waiting for the other shoe to drop or has it already done so in some cases but we are not aware of it? Who knows.
It is important to remember that the chemical structure of toxins often differ by very little, sometimes a single peptide or the same peptides but one at a different locus.

Personally I will not eat algae. I did not evolve to be an algae eater. There are food woo-woos who believe that such products are good for you. I just don't know and dont want to find out.

[thaiboxerken]

This is just another example of how "all natural" and "organic" have become merely marketing tools with no bearing on food quality at all. Support genetically engineered foods!!

[Boo]

I started on the reccomendation of my vet. As a pup she refused all brands of food, had diarrhea and was losing weight. I discussed the options with the Vet. She agreed to a 3 day trial of raw chicken and vegetables. It worked, the diarrhea went away the pup was eating and started gaining weight.

It was a decision made after spending a great deal of time reading the pros and cons and discussion with my vet. It was not one I made lightly.

It is not a diet for all dogs. Done properly though it is a good diet for some. It works for mine.



Boo

[Jeff Corey]

When we went to rescue our Tervuren a few years ago, he was about 18 months old and 60 lbs. He had recovered from starvation and heartworm and had weighed 39 lbs 4 months earlier. The rescuer has a kennel in Rocky Mount, NC, and her vet had advised a diet of raw chicken.
Our vet didn't, so we fed him good quality dry food with occasional small toppings of leftover white clam sauce or pieces of beef or chicken (cooked).
We have to watch his diet because he's a bit heavy at 90 lbs.
But just because wolves can eat raw poultry or livestock doesn't mean it's the healthiest diet for canis domesticus.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Boo
It is not a diet for all dogs. Done properly though it is a good diet for some. It works for mine.
Not going to argue with that. "Done properly" is an important point, and a lot of the ideologues preaching the idea as inherently "good" don't emphasise that nearly as much as they ought.

You have to do a lot of work on making sure that vitamin and minerals are right (and too much supplementation can be as bad as too little), and food hygiene can be really problematic if you are feeding fresh food, nightmareish if you're not cooking it. It's also just plain more work. But it can be done.

It's something I'd only recommend if there was a really good reason, like Boo has. Normally, the advantages of commercially-prepared diets just have it licked - they really aren't inherently evil, most of them are well-researched and well-prepared, and every vet can tell you of squillions of patients who've lived into a healthy old age on nothing but tins and packets. However, the home-prepared diet thing can certainly be done, if you're prepared to make the effort.

I just get fairly hacked off at the ideologues who preach this as "virtue" to dog owners whose animals would be perfectly fine dining out of a tin, then refuse to take any responsibility when these pets go down with food poisoning or bone impaction.

Rolfe.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Rolfe

Not going to argue with that. "Done properly" is an important point, and a lot of the ideologues preaching the idea as inherently "good" don't emphasise that nearly as much as they ought.

You have to do a lot of work on making sure that vitamin and minerals are right (and too much supplementation can be as bad as too little), and food hygiene can be really problematic if you are feeding fresh food, nightmareish if you're not cooking it. It's also just plain more work. But it can be done.


Yes, it can be done but it is inherently more risky, for both the pet and owner, and should only be tried as a last resort. This appears to be the case with boo. The quacks that push this as the only healthy diet (like Ian Billinghurst) know next to nothing about pet nutrition and biochemistry. Their true goal, like most diet quacks, is to sell books and collect fat lecture fees.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by BTox
Yes, it can be done but it is inherently more risky, for both the pet and owner, and should only be tried as a last resort. This appears to be the case with boo. The quacks that push this as the only healthy diet (like Ian Billinghurst) know next to nothing about pet nutrition and biochemistry. Their true goal, like most diet quacks, is to sell books and collect fat lecture fees.
What he said. :)

Rolfe.

[wayrad]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
I repeat, it is. I did not need the following authors to tell me this but perhaps you do. As I said I have been dealing, actually fighting with this bug for a long time. on a clinical level.
If it smells like a cyanobacterium, and it looks like a cyanobacterium oh well, then perhaps in some way, shape, form or manner as you say, then it is a cyanobacterium.

Steve, do you really want to insist on maintaining this easily refuted opinion? I refer you to the taxonomic outline from the leading work on the subject, Bergey's Manual of Systematic Bacteriology, viewable here:
http://www.cme.msu.edu/bergeys/april2001-genus.pdf

Your reference deals with particular compounds that are fairly widespread in various groups of microorganisms and plants. It does not indicate that the organisms in question belong to the same groups.

As you can see from Bergey's, Pseudomonas belongs to the phylum Proteobacteria, while cyanobacteria are members of an entirely different phylum , the Cyanobacteria. We are talking about the difference between a photosynthetic organism that grows on light, carbon dioxide and inorganic dissolved nutrients, and a heterotrophic opportunistic pathogen that requires organic compounds (which it regrettably often finds in human tissues). As a cyanobacteriologist of 20 years' standing, I find this difference significant. Although there is no doubt that cyanobacteria, like many other organisms, can in some cases produce toxins, you are about as likely to find your lungs colonized by a cyanobacterium as by an African violet.

edited to add: However, I feel some sympathy for your views on algal supplements. Although they can be good sources for certain essential nutrients, I've never felt any urge to use them myself. For one thing, it tastes bad. And the wild material sold through multilevel marketing schemes on the Web makes me distinctly uneasy (edited to add: many of the claims made for it are highly improbable, too). That said, it is important to be on sound scientific grounds in these matters.

[Iamme]

Jeff---Ya mean you actually have a tie-in with North Carolina?:wink8: :D

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Iamme
Jeff---Ya mean you actually have a tie-in with North Carolina?:wink8: :D
We have friends down there. The kennel owner and dog rescuer, other profs at the various colleges and some people originally from here who were wacky enough to retire in that benighted cesspool of low suthern culture.
But, seriously, Fayettesville, where we were looking at modular homes and a weird round house, was very pleasant, the people were friendly and the land was cheap compared to here.

[SteveGrenard]

Thank you wayrad for this explanation. I agree Pseudomonas is not a blue-green bacteria , there is no green. It is only blue (cyan). I have seen it in the muck I have suctioned out of airways. Of course the nomenclature of this group is confusing and subject to change, even where Bergey's is concerned although I am not saying the update you are referencing is incorrect.

I am not a bacteriologost and only run on clinical information. If I can prevent it, I will. If I can't prevent and I can kill it, I will. This often proves to be extremely difficult in a hospital environment. Pseudomonas is certainly non photosynthetic but it is highly infectious and can be necrotizing to some types of tissues (e.g. lungs).

TAXONOMY:287

ID : 287
PARENT ID : 136841
RANK : species
GC ID : 11
SCIENTIFIC NAME : Pseudomonas aeruginosa
SYNONYM : Micrococcus pyocyaneus
SYNONYM : "Bacterium aeruginosum" Cohn 1872
SYNONYM : "Bacillus aeruginosus" (Schroeter 1872) Trevisan 1885
SYNONYM : Pseudomonas aeruginosa (Schroeter 1872) Migula 1900
SYNONYM : probable synonym or variety: "Pseudomonas polycolor" Clara 1930
SYNONYM : Pseudomonas pyocyanea
SYNONYM : Pseudomonas polycolor
SYNONYM : "Bacillus pyocyaneus" (Zopf 1884) Flugge 1886
SYNONYM : "Bacterium aeruginosum" Schroeter 1872
SYNONYM : "Pseudomonas pyocyanea" (Zopf 1884) Migula 1895
SYNONYM : "Micrococcus pyocyaneus" Zopf 1884
SYNONYM : "Bacterium pyocyaneum" (Zopf 1884) Lehmann and Neumann 1896
SYNONYM : Bacillus aeruginosus
SYNONYM : Bacillus pyocyaneus
SYNONYM : Bacterium aeruginosum
SYNONYM : Bacterium pyocyaneum
MISSPELLING : Peudomonas aeruginosa


PS: You may call them bacterial enzymes, I call them toxins. Either way they digest lung and other organ tissue in infected animals and humans.

[wayrad]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Thank you wayrad for this explanation. I agree Pseudomonas is not a blue-green bacteria , there is no green. It is only blue (cyan). It is interesting that Pseudomonas appears blue under those conditions. That would be due to a different compound from the one (phycocyanin) which causes some cyanobacteria to appear bluish (others appear red because of the related pigment phycoerythrin). Both of these are photosynthetic pigments involved in funneling light energy to chlorophyll, and are found only in cyanos and certain algae. They can be identified fairly easily by their distinctive absorption and fluorescence spectra.

I've no idea what the compound in P aeruginosa would be, though. A lot of bacteria change appearance when grown under different conditions.

[SteveGrenard]

following excerpted from:


PSEUDOMONAS AERUGINOSA IN HOSPITALIZED PATIENTS
WITH INFECTIVE EXACERBATIONS OF BRONCHIECTASIS:

CLINICAL AND RESEARCH IMPLICATIONS



Abdullah Al-Mobeireek, Abdul-Majeed Kambal,
Saleh R. Al-Balla, Hassan Al-Sawwaf, Sarfaz Saleemi



"Cole proposed the "vicious circle" hypothesis, in which he attributed the perpetuation of the inflammatory process in bronchiectasis to the products resulting from the interaction of colonizing microorganisms and the leukocytes.8 PA in particular has been associated and implicated in the development of more severe forms of bronchiectasis, compared with other organisms.3,9-11 Animal and human studies have shown that PA produces a number of toxins, proteolytic enzymes and factors, such as exotoxin A, protease, elastases, leukocidin, phospholipase and others. These substances can cause epithelial disruption, impairment of ciliary function and progressive airway damage, leading to bronchiectasis."



Saynajakangas O, Keistinen T, Tuuponen T, Kivela SL. Bronchiectasis in Finland: trends in hospital treatment. Respir Med 1997;91:395-8.


Nicotra MB. Bronchiectasis. Semin Respir Infec 1994;9:31-40.


Evans SA, Turner SM, Bosch BJ, Hardy CC, Woodhead MA. Lung function in bronchiectasis: the influence of Pseudomonas aeruginosa. Eur Respir J 1996;9:1601-4.


Pang JA, Cheng A, Chan HS, Poon D, French G. The bacteriology of bronchiectasis in Hong Kong investigated by protected catheter brush and bronchoalveolar lavage. Am Rev Respir Dis 1989;139:14-7.


Nicotra MB, Rivera M, Dale AM, Shepherd R, Carter R. Clinical, pathophysiologic, and microbiologic characterization of bronchiectasis in an aging cohort. Chest 1995;108:955-61.


Nazer H, Riff E, Sakati N, Matthew R, Majeed-Saidan MA, Harfi H. Cystic fibrosis in Saudi Arabia. Eur J Pediatr 1989;148:330-2.


Shishido H, Nagai H, Kurashima A, et al. Tuberculosis sequelae: secondary bacterial infections. Kekkaku 1990;65:873-80.


Cole P, Wilson R. Host-microbial interrelationships in respiratory infection. Chest 1989;95:217S-21S.


Rivera M, Nicotra MB. Pseudomonas aeruginosa mucoid strain: its significance in adult chest disease. Am Rev Respir Dis 1982;126:833-6.


Miszkiel KA, Wells AU, Rubens MB, Cole PJ, Hansell DM. Effects of airway infection by Pseudomonas aeruginosa: a computed tomographic study. Thorax 1997;52:260-4.


Nagaki M, Shimura S, Tanno Y, Ishibashi t, Sasaki H, Takishima T. Role of chronic Pseudomonas aeruginosa infection in the development of bronchiectasis. Chest 1992;102:1464-9.


Tabbara KF, Frayha H. The use and abuse of antibiotics. Ann Saudi Med (editorial) 1996;16:495-6.


Rayner CFJ, Tillotson G, Cole PJ, Wilson R. Efficacy and safety of long-term ciprofloxacin in the management of severe bronchiectasis. J Antimicrob Chemo 1994;34:149-56.


Lam WK, Chau PY, So SY, Leung YK, Chan CK, Ip M, et al. Ofloxacin compared with amoxycillin in treating infective exacerbations in bronchiectasis. Respir Med 1989;83:299-303.


Ashour M, Al-kattan KM, Jain SK, Al-majid S, Al-Kassimi F, Mobaireek A, et al. Surgery for unilateral bronchiectasis: results and prognostic factors. Tuber Lung Dis 1996;77:168-72.


Ramsey BW, Wentz KR, Smith AL, et al. Predictive value of oropharyngeal cultures for identifying lower airway bacteria in cystic fibrosis patients. Am Rev Respir Dis 1991;144:331-7.


Thomassen MJ, Klinger JD, Badger SJ, van Heeckeren DW, Stern RC. Cultures of thoracotomy specimens confirm usefulness of sputum cultures in cystic fibrosis. J Pediatr 1984;104:352-6.


World Health Organization. Chronic cor pulmonale: a report of the expert committee. Circulation 1963;27:594-615.

[Suezoled]

Gee, never thought that good vet care and feeding my dog something besides processed chicken by-products and ground corn was woo-woo.

As I understand it, when you feed an animal a raw meat diet, you increase the probablity of getting sick yourself because of the increased expose to things like salmonella. Also, feeding chicken bones of any sort is a dangerous, as they can splinter (but Rolfe already explained that).

Processed meat products and things like ground corn are not bad things. They are enriched with vitamins and are consistent in terms of health (unless it's an all-organic pet food company we've been talking about on the thread here....), quality, and safety. Dogs have a functiong cecum, anyway, so ground corn is not indigestible.

NOTE: please disregard everything I just typted. Between Pyrro and Rolfe, they already said what I just did, and several posts back, too.
Sorry!

[Rolfe]

There's been some discussion about this case on the vets' list, and nobody seems very sure what the actual toxin, poison or other cause of death actually was in these dogs. One poster reported:.... it appears the metal levels the breeder noted from her analysis are still under AAFCO maximums so not likely to be the problem, thus others are looking for aflatoxins even though a Missouri analysis was not reported to have found them (but also didn't look for them, it seems).
Another cynic then remarked:Well if there are heavy metals or aflatoxin it's OK because they are natural.:rolleyes:
However, others are still speculating whether it might be possible to induce copper toxicity in dogs if you fed them enough.

It's odd that the reports speak of "heavy" metals, but then go on to talk about iron, copper and zinc, which aren't in what I would usually see as the class of "heavy metal poisons" (lead, mercury, that sort of thing).

I think we have to wait to see what the pathologists finally come up with. However, I haven't heard that anyone is actually looking at a body and if they don't do that it's all going to be relatively speculative.

Roilfe.

[Pakaran]

There's been a few cases of vegan cats dying. Apparently they need a nutrient that they can't get from any plant source, and that most of us mammals make in our livers.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Pakaran
There's been a few cases of vegan cats dying. Apparently they need a nutrient that they can't get from any plant source, and that most of us mammals make in our livers.
Cats (unlike dogs) are obligate carnivores. They require arachidonic acid, which can't be sourced from plants, and something else as well which I forget for the moment. Pet food manufacturers use a lot of lung offal in cat food, as lung is high in arachidonic acid.

This science is all well known to the big pet food manufacturers, who generally go to a lot of trouble to ensure that their products contain all that they should and nothing that they shouldn't. Only to have these products castigated as "***** in a bag" by the "natural food" woo-woos, who then promote stuff which is an engraved invitation to food poisoning.

"Vegetarian" cats die. Fortunately most cats are very efficient hunters.

Rolfe.

[Pakaran]

Originally posted by Rolfe

It's odd that the reports speak of "heavy" metals, but then go on to talk about iron, copper and zinc, which aren't in what I would usually see as the class of "heavy metal poisons" (lead, mercury, that sort of thing).


To be fair - iron in high concentration is corrosive, and a lot of little kids die from taking iron pills in ounce quantities. Also, I believe swallowing pennies can be dangerous because a voltaic reaction is set up when the copper coat is dissolved through, which forces the copper or zinc (i forget which) into solution, and can cause poisoning. Babies have been hospitalized after swallowing the (newer American) pennies, I guess the older ones didn't have this problem.

[Pakaran]

Originally posted by Rolfe

Cats (unlike dogs) are obligate carnivores. They require arachidonic acid, which can't be sourced from plants, and something else as well which I forget for the moment. Pet food manufacturers use a lot of lung offal in cat food, as lung is high in arachidonic acid.

This science is all well known to the big pet food manufacturers, who generally go to a lot of trouble to ensure that their products contain all that they should and nothing that they shouldn't. Only to have these products castigated as "***** in a bag" by the "natural food" woo-woos, who then promote stuff which is an engraved invitation to food poisoning.

"Vegetarian" cats die. Fortunately most cats are very efficient hunters.

Rolfe.

The other substance you're thinking of is taurine, which apparently can be found in mulluscs. PETA's page says there's a vegetable source for it. The bottom line, though, is that cats aren't evolved to eat lettuce, whatever PETA might like to think.

[Pakaran]

Originally posted by Rolfe

Cats (unlike dogs) are obligate carnivores. They require arachidonic acid, which can't be sourced from plants, and something else as well which I forget for the moment. Pet food manufacturers use a lot of lung offal in cat food, as lung is high in arachidonic acid.

This science is all well known to the big pet food manufacturers, who generally go to a lot of trouble to ensure that their products contain all that they should and nothing that they shouldn't. Only to have these products castigated as "***** in a bag" by the "natural food" woo-woos, who then promote stuff which is an engraved invitation to food poisoning.

"Vegetarian" cats die. Fortunately most cats are very efficient hunters.

Rolfe.

The other substance you're thinking of is taurine, which apparently can be found in mulluscs. PETA's page says there's a vegetable source for it. The bottom line, though, is that cats aren't evolved to eat lettuce, whatever PETA might like to think.

[Pakaran]

sorry, can a mod delete my duplicate post above? thanks

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Pakaran
The other substance you're thinking of is taurine, which apparently can be found in mulluscs. PETA's page says there's a vegetable source for it. The bottom line, though, is that cats aren't evolved to eat lettuce, whatever PETA might like to think.
I'm not sure if it was taurine I was thinking of or not. I sort of thought "taurine?", then rejected it, as I thought it was something more unusual - runs in my mind other species require taurine too, not just cats. But maybe it was taurine I meant.

Heck, I should know this, my brain's gone for a spacewalk. I need a holiday.

Bottom line is, you can't feed a cat vegetarian and retain live healthy cat. It's a ridiculous idea. You can feed a dog vegetarian if you're real knowledgeable (like, you better buy a commercially-prepared diet with all the right vitamins and so on added), but I think that's an asinine idea too.

Rolfe.

[epepke]

Originally posted by Rolfe
If you've got a vet who tells you that feeding dogs raw food and bones is healthier than commercial pet foods, I'd seriously re-evaluate your definition of "good".

This may make me unpopular here, but I have yet to meet a Vet who didn't think that acupuncture was a swell idea. I wouldn't yet go so far as to trust vets on everything.

I remember taking my Dalmatian Siren to the vet in Atlanta. Siren was an AKC-registered purebred Dal. She was fourteen, but most people who saw her thought she was two. (Most Dalmatians don't live past eight.) They were amazed at how sprightly she was and asked me what I fed her. I answered truthfully:

"She gets the cheapest dry dog food that I can find, as long as it is in small pieces. She really likes Field Master. Also, when I'm cutting up meat, she gets the scraps. She really loves bread, that is like her favorite thing. I'll give her bones. Beef bones she'll grind up in a few hours. She's also had chicken bones and pork ribs. Also, she steals food. I've seen her snap up a clove of garlic that fell on the floor. Also, once when I made some Cuban rice and beans, I put some chopped onions in a bowl of vinegar. Later I heard this 'lap lap lap,' and I saw that Siren had propped herself up to steal the rest of the bowl."

The vet, to what I will always remember as her immense and honorable credit, turned to her assistant and shared a glance and said, "Well, there goes that theory."

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by epepke
This may make me unpopular here, but I have yet to meet a Vet who didn't think that acupuncture was a swell idea.
Hi, there!

Acupuncture is irrational woo-woo, but there are rather a lot of people sounding off a load of total lies, and also too many people who aren't critical enough and almost automatically react against anyone taking a critical attitude to things being preached by colleagues. Not polite, doncha know?

Nonsense with needles. (http://www.vet-task-force.com/Acuref1.htm)

To be fair, there are quite a lot of good studies available now showing that there is no effect. It's just that the liars keep right on lying.

Oh, but that's because we don't realise how it really works. For the most irrational vet I've ever met on this subject, look at this article (http://vetlab.co.uk/voodoo/thoresen.html). Can you spell "magical thinking"?

Rolfe.