L.A train crash and 9-11

[parky76]

A lot of 9-11 Sheepers again and again have argued that 9-11 MUST have been an inside job, because there is NO WAY our Air Force could not take out those planes, there is NO WAY both towers could have collapsed, there is NO WAY flight 93 was not shot down.

Basically, their argument is, "There is NO WAY the Super USA could be attacked by 19 Arab from a cave. We are too strong and too powerful for this to happen to us. There MUST be a more sinister explenation".

I believe psychologists would call this a sort of "super-daddy" syndrome, that one's parents are ALL powerful, ALL knowing, and ALL doing. They can never be wrong, they can never be defeated. The 9-11 Sheepers have projected this onto their country, the USA. And they basically believe that the USA, CANNOT be messed with. If anything bad happens to us, it must be our own fault, cause we are too cool to be messed with.

And then comes, the train accident in L.A. How it is possible for two trains to collide, head on, is beyond my imagination.

Didnt they have their lights on? Didnt they have traffic controllers watching the trains? How is this possible? This has NEVER happened in NYC...so how could it happen in Los Angeles?

No matter how unbelievable this is to me, I still accept that in this imperfect world, horrible and insane and unbelievable things do happen...even when they really should not.

But, to a 9-11 Sheeper, the sheer impossibility of this...must mean it IS impossible..and therefore..must have had a deeper evil cause.

Like most other human beings, I accept that "stuff" happens. 9-11 Sheepers.....simply don't. The USA is all powerful, and "stuff" just doesnt happen to the USA.

So, I ask them, with that logic, do you believe that the L.A. train disaster was...an INSIDE JOB? By your logic...it MUST be!!

[laodoggie]

Metrolink spokeswoman Denise Tyrell said a contract engineer who was driving the Metrolink train was responsible for the crash.
She said the engineer was supposed to pull off in resopnse to a red light and wait for the other train to go by, but he failed to do that.

knbc.com/news/17462062/detail.html?dl=mainclick

[Homeland Insurgency]

A lot of 9-11 Sheepers again and again have argued that 9-11 MUST have been an inside job, because there is NO WAY our Air Force could not take out those planes, there is NO WAY both towers could have collapsed, there is NO WAY flight 93 was not shot down.

Basically, their argument is, "There is NO WAY the Super USA could be attacked by 19 Arab from a cave. We are too strong and too powerful for this to happen to us. There MUST be a more sinister explenation".

I believe psychologists would call this a sort of "super-daddy" syndrome, that one's parents are ALL powerful, ALL knowing, and ALL doing. They can never be wrong, they can never be defeated. The 9-11 Sheepers have projected this onto their country, the USA. And they basically believe that the USA, CANNOT be messed with. If anything bad happens to us, it must be our own fault, cause we are too cool to be messed with.

And then comes, the train accident in L.A. How it is possible for two trains to collide, head on, is beyond my imagination.

Didnt they have their lights on? Didnt they have traffic controllers watching the trains? How is this possible? This has NEVER happened in NYC...so how could it happen in Los Angeles?

No matter how unbelievable this is to me, I still accept that in this imperfect world, horrible and insane and unbelievable things do happen...even when they really should not.

But, to a 9-11 Sheeper, the sheer impossibility of this...must mean it IS impossible..and therefore..must have had a deeper evil cause.

Like most other human beings, I accept that "stuff" happens. 9-11 Sheepers.....simply don't. The USA is all powerful, and "stuff" just doesnt happen to the USA.

So, I ask them, with that logic, do you believe that the L.A. train disaster was...an INSIDE JOB? By your logic...it MUST be!!

A lot of the debunkers like to promote the claim that the US was caught with their pants down on 9/11 by 19 terrorist armed with nothing but box-cutters to point out just how not SUPER the USA is. Resentment?

[parky76]

A lot of the debunkers like to promote the claim that the US was caught with their pants down on 9/11 by 19 terrorist armed with nothing but box-cutters to point out just how not SUPER the USA is. Resentment?

Resentment...against who? I dont know about you, but most of us are proud Americans....proud but realistic.

By the way, they only had box cutters, but they did claim to have a bomb on flight 93 which is a good reason to believe a similar claim was made on all the other flights.

[PhantomWolf]

I believe psychologists would call this a sort of "super-daddy" syndrome, that one's parents are ALL powerful, ALL knowing, and ALL doing. They can never be wrong, they can never be defeated. The 9-11 Sheepers have projected this onto their country, the USA. And they basically believe that the USA, CANNOT be messed with. If anything bad happens to us, it must be our own fault, cause we are too cool to be messed with.

I think that too many of them watch things like Iron Eagle and believe it is true, while not enough watch real military documentaries like the one I watched last night where a Green Beret Base Camp in Vietnam was over run by the NVA. Of the over 200 GBs stationed at the camp, only 7 survived and one of them ended up as a POW for 5 years after the incident. In a way it's probably just as well the CTs didn't watch it, they'd peobably have decided that it was "an iside job" too because of all the things that went wrong, from Commanders refusing to believe that the NVA had tanks in the area, too the LAWs that the GBs had misfiring or just bouncing off the tanks when they did fire. Even the Marines refusing to send people in to help would be seen as a "stand down" rather than a rather harsh decision that the 8 men alive weren't worth the cost in lives it would take to fight through the NVA and get them out.

Reality happens to be a lot more choatic and unpredictable than most CTs seem to want to believe. I honestly think that for many of them the idea that the US Govt is super powerful and all knowing, even if evil and planning to wipe out most people, is comforting to them and a fantasy they don't want to give up to face the true choas and ineptitute of the controlling bodies that makes up the real world. Their fantasy is a sort of security blanket, it allows them to put togther the pieces in an easy and predictable manner. Unfortunately the real world just isn't like that.

[PhantomWolf]

Resentment...against who? I dont know about you, but most of us are proud Americans....proud but realistic.

Well though there hasn't been a survey on this rescently, the last one done of this forum had the Debunkers at about a 50-50 split, so you could say "about half of us are" but "most" is probably not right.

[JoeyDonuts]

Anyone ever hear of Hanlon's Razor? It cuts right the hell through of the majority of CT crap.

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

[PhantomWolf]

Anyone ever hear of Hanlon's Razor? It cuts right the hell through of the majority of CT crap.

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

One of the things that CTs seem totally unaware of is the difference between cover up and cover your butt.

Generally after something goes hienously wrong, those that were supposed to be in control go into a cover your butt mode at which point they will spin everything as far as possible to make sure that when the hammer falls, it hits someone else.

I'm going to use another real world example here to illustrate.

On the 28th of November, 1979, Air New Zealand experienced its one and only airliner crash. On what had become a routine sightseeing flight to Antarctica Flight 902 slammed into the side of Mount Erebus.

The initial investigation would say that it was pilot error, that the pilot was off course and descended into the mountain. The public were critical of this and demanded better answers, so the Govt created an inquiry done by Justice Peter Mahon. His conclusion was that the autopilot was reprogrammed to one flight path while the pilot was given a second one, meaning the pilot thought he was on one place, when really he was somewhere else. This combined with what is known as a sector whiteout, mean that the crew had no idea the mountain was there. Further more Mahon believed that the excutives at Air NZ had staged what he called, "an orchestrated litany of lies", conspiring to white-wash the investigation. Air NZ appealled the claim of a conspriacy and through the courts proved that there wasn't a conspiracy to white-wash the inquiry at all. What Mahon has found, and interrupted as a conspiracy, was in fact all the people involved doing their own butt covering. In two court cases it was shown that while his reasons for the crash were indeed correct, that his belief in a conspriacy to hide that was far from true and in the end on the 20th of October, 1982, the Law Lords of the Privy Council in London dismissed Mahon's appeal and upheld the decision of the New Zealand Court of Appeal.

The case of 902 had all the makings of a great Conspriacy, the autopilot being changed, the pilot and crew given an incorrect briefing, butt covering at the highest levels, even the fact that NZ's greatest Hero was supposed to be on the flight as a guide but switched with one of his friends at the last minute. The truth that finally emerged was rather more mundane though, esentially it was the result of a massive fubar where everyone thought everyone else knew what was happening and no-one actually bother checking to make sure.

This is the real world, things don't go according to plan, people make mistakes, and sometimes those mistakes cost lives. When that happens, 9 times out of 10, those that made the mistakes will start butt covering procedures and just because they try and hide their mistakes and ineptatude, doesn't actually mean they made the mistakes on purpose.

[JoeyDonuts]

Right on target, man. The destroyer I was stationed on ran into an ODASS buoy one night. (Oceanographic sensing buoys operated by NOAA.) Smashed a couple solar panels, all kinds of stuff. It was reported by our lookouts for about 10 minutes before the impact. Long story short, our conning officer was not paying attention and never gave a course change order. Our commanding officer was incredulous. He tried to take custody of the voice recorder tapes, which is illegal. (One very ballsy Senior Chief said, "With all due respect sir, you can't do that.") In the end, they tried to lay the blame on the 19-year old seaman apprentice who did his damn job and reported it the whole time. Thankfully, that never happened. The conning officer got her qualification pulled (albeit temporarily) and the kid on watch didn't get in trouble. Massive conspiratorial cover up? No. Careermongering CO who didn't want to explain to the squadron commander that one of his junior officers plowed a warship into a weather buoy because it might affect his chances of rapidly making O-6? Yes.

That's why I keep Hanlon's Razor right in my pocket.

[Tweeter]

One of the things that CTs seem totally unaware of is the difference between cover up and cover your butt.

Generally after something goes hienously wrong, those that were supposed to be in control go into a cover your butt mode at which point they will spin everything as far as possible to make sure that when the hammer falls, it hits someone else.

.

Exactly every truthers thought about 9-11.
Debunkers will go to any length to make their story stick, no matter how absurd.

[PhantomWolf]

Exactly every truthers thought about 9-11.
Debunkers will go to any length to make their story stick, no matter how absurd.

That's funny, I swear that the Truthers' thoughts are that they are covering it up because they did it, not that they they are covering their butts cause they screwed up and their screw ups allowed 19 P.O.ed Arabs to get away with doing it.

[JoeyDonuts]

Yeah, we have absurd things like science on our side.

[Whiplash]

Exactly every truthers thought about 9-11.
Debunkers will go to any length to make their story stick, no matter how absurd.

Thanks for the laugh.

[starchild]

I know this is incredibly naive but I am going to say it anyway, I think that the point of some people within the 'Truth Movement' is that there shouldn't be any kind of cover up and that those who were responsible, even if was just a massive 'failure of imagination' should be held accountable. Unlike JoeyDonuts CO, who was reprimanded for trying to cover up her situation, there hasn't been anyone within the U.S Government who has been.
I do think that there was MAJOR butt covering post-9/11 within many facets of the Government, but should that be acceptable behaviour? Is this beyond naivety on my part???

[Jonnyclueless]

No that is NOT the point of some in the truth movement. THe point is to find a conspiracy at all costs. Most of the time that requires making stuff up in order to create one.

[PhantomWolf]

I know this is incredibly naive but I am going to say it anyway, I think that the point of some people within the 'Truth Movement' is that there shouldn't be any kind of cover up and that those who were responsible, even if was just a massive 'failure of imagination' should be held accountable. Unlike JoeyDonuts CO, who was reprimanded for trying to cover up her situation, there hasn't been anyone within the U.S Government who has been.
I do think that there was MAJOR butt covering post-9/11 within many facets of the Government, but should that be acceptable behaviour? Is this beyond naivety on my part???

This is certainly not the the main thrust, but it dies get raised on occasion. Gumboot actually covered this exceptionally well in another thread and I'm not going to be able to do him justice if I was to try and paraphrase, so I won't.

The issue is really was it an individual's failure, or a system wide failure. The answer is the second. The individuals in the system were running the systems the way they had been trained to do, so in most cases the screw up weren't by individuals doing things wrong, but rather a system that did things wrong. It would have been so much easier to have picked five of six scapegoats and fired them then told the US public, the problem has been solved, it won't happen again, but in the end that wouldn't have fixed a thing. The repairs had to be done to the systems themselves, and the best people to do that were the ones that wetre on the ground trying to use a broken system in the first place.

That's what some people don't seem to understand. If you hire a guy to guard a building, but someone gets past him because the fire door is broken and they can sneak in the back where there aren't any cameras, do you fire the guard and get someone else to guard the building with all it's flaws and hope that the system isn't attacked the same way, or do you get the guy that was guarding the building to tell you what things need fixing to allow him to actually do the job right?

[JoeyDonuts]

I know this is incredibly naive but I am going to say it anyway, I think that the point of some people within the 'Truth Movement' is that there shouldn't be any kind of cover up and that those who were responsible, even if was just a massive 'failure of imagination' should be held accountable. Unlike JoeyDonuts CO, who was reprimanded for trying to cover up her situation, there hasn't been anyone within the U.S Government who has been.
I do think that there was MAJOR butt covering post-9/11 within many facets of the Government, but should that be acceptable behaviour? Is this beyond naivety on my part???

If in fact it was determined that a military or high-level civilian official dropped the ball on something regarding 9/11 - his or her reprimand and/or dismissal wouldn't necessarily be released publicly.

Most organizations worth their salt ascribe to the "praise in public, correct in private" mentality.

[Travis]

This is certainly not the the main thrust, but it dies get raised on occasion. Gumboot actually covered this exceptionally well in another thread and I'm not going to be able to do him justice if I was to try and paraphrase, so I won't.

The issue is really was it an individual's failure, or a system wide failure. The answer is the second. The individuals in the system were running the systems the way they had been trained to do, so in most cases the screw up weren't by individuals doing things wrong, but rather a system that did things wrong. It would have been so much easier to have picked five of six scapegoats and fired them then told the US public, the problem has been solved, it won't happen again, but in the end that wouldn't have fixed a thing. The repairs had to be done to the systems themselves, and the best people to do that were the ones that wetre on the ground trying to use a broken system in the first place.

That's what some people don't seem to understand. If you hire a guy to guard a building, but someone gets past him because the fire door is broken and they can sneak in the back where there aren't any cameras, do you fire the guard and get someone else to guard the building with all it's flaws and hope that the system isn't attacked the same way, or do you get the guy that was guarding the building to tell you what things need fixing to allow him to actually do the job right?

Exactly. As Gumboot said a System failure is actually worse than an individual's failures. It's like the difference in having your (American rules) football team lose because the quarterback keeps throwing interceptions and losing because you whole defensive scheme is flawed and the opposing team picks you apart.

You can just get a new quarterback as soon as the next game if that's your only problem. You can't just implement a new defense since it took you weeks to train the players for the scheme you have which you are now stuck with for awhile like it or not.