CT/truthers - you're doing it wrong

[oldmajor]

I've been reading this site for the past few weeks - lots of interesting info and debates. Thanks to everyone who posts here. The odd thing about this forum is that the debates are often fueled by ignorance, or by someone "just asking questions." And that's okay. I like to see "9/11 Truth" people post here and I hope they continue to do so. My problem with those people is not their motives (which I'm going to assume are pure) but with their methods - they're doing it wrong.
Dissidence is important, vital to any society. Always ask questions, be vigilant, demand answers. It's fulfilling too, to take up the fight against authority's wrongs. I get that. I had A LOT of questions about 9/11 as we all did. I still have some. We're ALL 9/11 truthers - that phrase itself is redundant and a little insulting if it's being used as a means to differentiate.
Consider the Rice/Ben-Veniste exchange during the commission investigation in April '04 when his line of questions facilitated the release of that infamous 'Bin Laded Determined to Strike' PDB. Now THAT right there is some good 9/11 truthin'. It's the kind of thing I want to know about, that I think we should know about. Not to burn Bush et al at the stake, but because I think it's important. And as far as I'm aware, Richard Ben-Veniste does not have a blogspot nor is he the author of a creepy YouTube video. He's an attorney. But he's one of 'them' right?
All this business of demolitions and fake planes and "pull it" and Pentacon is silly and insulting. If you think you're getting after the 'truth,' you're not. And if you think you're being dissident - you're doing it wrong.
It's a scary thought to consider the reality of terrorism and how we can rationally deal with these fellas over in the Middle East, but it's even scarier to imagine that the terrorists are in our own government - maybe your neighbor with the blue minivan was one of the guys on the controlled demolitions team that wired up WTC7? Maybe that's how he paid for that new pool in the backyard? And the mailman who brings him his hush money check every week, maybe he's in on it too? That's called spreading fear. And if you're think you're 'fighting the power' in any way shape or form by spreading FEAR, I'll say it again - you're doing it wrong.
Sorry about the rant.

[Drudgewire]

Welcome to JREF oldmajor.

[Quad4_72]

Welcome. Yes most of the twoofers are indeed fueled by paranoia and find thrills in imagining that the government is watching them and that they are unravelling some sort of massive conspiracy. They sure are doing it wrong.

[Confuseling]

Good post oldmajor.

I would add too that some people claim that spreading fear and distrust is useful, in that it promotes overall watchfulness.

It isn't - it's crying wolf. Nobody listens to the points that are true, and the hysterical serve as a perfect instrument for discrediting legitimate lines of criticism.

If you wish to fight against corruption and incompetence, become a 9/11 Fabricatortm.

:D

[ktesibios]

Welcome to the forum, oldmajor!

Something that struck me recently: we humans have a long tradition of telling ourselves stories to explain aspects of the world that we don't understand. Some of these stories have been interesting enough to survive to the present day, provide inspiration to artists and work for scholars.

But the quality of some of the stories we've been making up lately for the same purpose- conspiracy theories, that is, has been so poor, so riddled with obvious absurdity and inanity, so dramaturgically awful that I fear our cultural legacy is threatened.

Imagine the world 2000 years from now. Can you envisage anyone taking the time and trouble to compile and publish Bulfinch's Conspiracy Theories?

The art world has bequeathed us lots of paintings of mythological subjects. A quick search on Wikipedia turns up dozens of paintings of Danae and the shower of gold, Atalanta racing Melanion and Andromeda chained to the rock (by a curious coincidence, all of those myths provide the painter with an excuse to paint an attractive nude lady). What will the artists of that future world have to work with- Barbara Olson and the suitcase full of lire at the Polish-Austrian Border? It doesn't bear thinking about.

I fear that future students of present-day mythology will have an awfully barren field to plow, unless the CT industry wises up and hires some Greeks to do the writing.

And some nude ladies. ;)

[Confuseling]

I'm going through the permutations in my head, and they're all as bad as each other.

Students of present-day mythology will have some nude ladies, instead of their awfully barren field? More frighteningly, might the students of present-day mythology have awfully barren nude ladies?

The Greeks... ahem... 'do' the nude ladies?

The mind boggles. :D

[R.Mackey]

To oldmajor, welcome. Your remarks are right on target.

About a year ago, I wrote this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=93451) in an attempt to redirect some of their fervor into more productive avenues; you may find it resonates with your own sentiments. Unfortunately, it was not well received by its intended audience. Ah well. Perhaps some will understand.

[JohnG]

Nice new post oldmajor.

...and nice old post R.Mackey. Too bad it went off the rails so quickly. Maybe it is worth bumping or revisiting? Is it considered bad form to reintroduce an old post more or less verbatim into a brand new thread?

[gumboot]

Imagine the world 2000 years from now. Can you envisage anyone taking the time and trouble to compile and publish Bulfinch's Conspiracy Theories


I think you need not worry. There are ample quality stories being told to explain the world around us. Mostly films these days, because that's the most popular story telling medium, but also in books, in theatre, and so on.

The Conspiracy Theory stories are lacking in one fundamental way; human truth. That is what makes a story worthwhile, relevant, and most importantly, enduring. The 9/11 CTs and similar are those stories that won't last through the ages, and will be forgotten. But we have plenty of other stories to pick from, which won't fade so easily.

And don't forget, many of the most compelling stories are based on factual events. Expect the film United 93 to be a compelling story that survives the test of time.

[jhunter1163]

Can you envisage anyone taking the time and trouble to compile and publish Bulfinch's Conspiracy Theories?

Bul-something Conspiracy Theories, I can envisage.

[Caustic Logic]

And if you're think you're 'fighting the power' in any way shape or form by spreading FEAR, I'll say it again - you're doing it wrong.
Sorry about the rant.

What's more, quite a few of them have to know this. Ergo...

We're ALL 9/11 truthers - that phrase itself is redundant and a little insulting if it's being used as a means to differentiate.

Some more so than others. In fact the term is more Orwell ironic when it signifies anything, all too often.

Consider the Rice/Ben-Veniste exchange during the commission investigation in April '04 when his line of questions facilitated the release of that infamous 'Bin Laded Determined to Strike' PDB. Now THAT right there is some good 9/11 truthin'.

Good point. FWIW I always felt her denial and ignorance was perhaps staged. How would she know if "anybody ever predicted..."? Ari Fleischer said the same - sounds like a White House talking point issues from above rather than a slip of admitting ignorance. Who knows why...

[oldmajor]

R.Mackey -
That's a great post. And as far as the intended audience, you never know - I'm sure many people just read and lurk without getting involved in the discussions. Good to have thoughts like that out there regardless.

[T.A.M.]

oldmajor:

Welcome to the forum.

I think you are a little too optimistic, on the point of their motives. Sure, a good solid number of them are believers in the the CTs because they honestly believe there was a cover up and that it must be exposed. However, a good percentage of them have much less noble motives. For many it is fame. For others it is finding a group that accepts them. Still for others it is merely the self-lifting element that goes with being "in on" secret evidence and secret operations that only they are smart enough to reveal.

That said, I think you have hit on many good points.

1. The truth movement believers/followers do approach it wrong. They only accept evidence, regardless of source or validity, if it adds to/promotes their world view. They use fear (fear of the big bad NWO) to try and convince others. They will actively promote any college educated fool as an expert, regardless of his area of expertise, to lend their cause some false sense of legitimacy, yet when others point out that REAL EXPERTS, educated in the field in question, agree with the "official theory", they call them shills, or "bought", or "afraid to tell the truth".

2. You make an excellent point about facing terrorism. The truthers fall into the all too common trap of facing the "devil you know", except they tend to blame said devil for everything, regardless of proof. It is much harder for them to accept that a small band of men, under the guidance and funding of a wide spread covert organization, was able to penetrate the "defenses" of the most powerful nation on earth, and wreak such havoc and horror. Instead, they find a narcotic like calm from blaming it all on the ever powerful, all knowing all doing big brother.

TAM:)