San Diego is burning.

[EvilYeti]

I live downtown and ash is blowing around my backyard. Attached is a picture of the sky around ten A.M this morning.

[tamiO]

Whoa. :(

Thanks for the heads up! I just turned on the news and see 250 homes have been destroyed and that it is arson!

Hoo!

[Disco]

I watched the news reports this morning & felt so horrible for all you folks living in that area. Hope you don't have to evacuate like some on another board I post to.

Living in CA can be harrowing sometimes - what with earthquakes & wildfires & all. Still, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, with the exception of Hawaii. But, they have their own share of mother nature's tests.

Stay safe & breathe carefully!

MHB

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by EvilYeti
I live downtown and ash is blowing around my backyard. Attached is a picture of the sky around ten A.M this morning.
I can see an image of the virgin Mary in the smoke... perhaps you can recoup some of your rebuilding costs through tourism...

[EvilYeti]

Just heard through the grapevine that arson is suspected in at least some of the fires and a possible terrorism link is being investigated. Will keep the board informed as I learn more.

[geni]

The BBC are sying four dead (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3214765.stm)

[arcticpenguin]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=2&u=/ap/20031026/ap_on_re_us/wildfires_deaths

The Associated Press says 8:


SAN DIEGO - Eight people were killed in one San Diego County brush fire, authorities said Sunday, raising the overall death toll in California's siege of wildfires to 11.

[a_unique_person]

We get the smoke filled sky down here in Melbourne about once every decade. Scary when it happens.

[†= Crap!]

There are fires up were I live also (LA). I woke up to the smell of smoke. I heard something about "no good punk kids" being responsible :confused:

Any way, the smoke is giving me a headache and making the sun a really cool red color.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by †= Crap!

Any way, the smoke is giving me a headache and making the sun a really cool red color.

Yeah, I can look right at it and it doesn't hurt my eyes. I can even make out two sunspots!

[†= Crap!]

And there’s ash everywhere.

[reprise]

The reports we've had here are saying that the weather's been unusually hot for this time of year - around 40°C.

Bushfire season officially starts here at the end of this week - I'm not looking forward to it.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by EvilYeti


Yeah, I can look right at it and it doesn't hurt my eyes. I can even make out two sunspots!

And yet you can't make the connection?

[QuarkChild]

QuarkDad took this picture:
(Edited to add: it was taken around noon)

[Ed]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


And yet you can't make the connection?



Score

Bethke 1
JREF 0

[QuarkChild]

I just called my parents (who live in San Diego county) and apparently their house isn't immediately threatened, but some neighborhoods north/east of them have been evacuated. Also, according to QuarkMom, my cat is refusing to go outside, apparently because of all the soot.


Here in Santa Cruz it's been very dry and hot for weeks and the deer on campus seem to be leaving the meadows for the forests. (I don't blame them.) At this point, though, even the plants in the forests are getting yellowed. I wish it would rain. I feel so much better in winter when you can walk past the fire signs and they say

****
Fire Danger Today:
LOW
****

Of course they've been reading "HIGH" for months now.

It makes me very nervous.

*fidgets*

[reprise]

We don't usually lose many houses in bushfire-prone areas here partly because we have such kick-ass fire-fighters but also because those who live in areas which are prone to bushfires generally take actions which minimise the risk of their houses being burned to the ground.

We do, however, get lots of people being admitted to hospital as the smoke from the bushfires settles over the greater metropolitan area and it's not unusual for the health authorities to issue warnings advising people with respiratory illnesses to stay indoors or evacuate the area.

[Thumbo]

I'm in Simi Valley. It's been a nervous 24 hours. The sky to the north was incredible at 5am, but right now things appear quiet - was may have got of lightly.

[reprise]

We're getting pretty constant reports of the death toll and number of houses lost here, but no reports on the extent to which infrastructure has been destroyed. Any reports on how many homes have been left without power, water, communications access, etc?

[Tesseract]

We just went though all this in BC, and I really sympathize with anyone in the fire zone. We had the driest summer on record, and then in rained for three days straight, dumping more in those three days than we usually get in the entire month of october. It's a year of extremes.

[renata]

I am in San Fernando Valley- no fires here, luckily. But I was driving downtown a few days back, and ash was blowing by me- like snow falling. Very surreal. Hang in there, people in the fire areas. There is always fires during Santa Ana wind season, but I do not remember it ever being this bad.

[Thumbo]

Originally posted by reprise
We're getting pretty constant reports of the death toll and number of houses lost here, but no reports on the extent to which infrastructure has been destroyed. Any reports on how many homes have been left without power, water, communications access, etc?
No problems at all in Simi Valley. A couple of 1 second power glitches in the small hours which upset the PC, and cable was out for a couple of hours today - just when you want to see the news.

In fact it's been almost weird just how normal everything has been today, apart from the obvious.

To the east of LA, in Rancho Cucamunga, the TV says power is off. But the TV is great at getting details wrong - all the coverage of the land within viewing distance of here has been only sort of correct. (The city emergency radio broadcast system has been excellent, btw.)

[Thumbo]

Originally posted by renata
I am in San Fernando Valley- no fires here, luckily. But I was driving downtown a few days back, and ash was blowing by me- like snow falling. Very surreal. Hang in there, people in the fire areas. There is always fires during Santa Ana wind season, but I do not remember it ever being this bad.
Get prepared just in case, Renata, if you're anywhere near scrubland - last report I heard from here was that the Simi fire was quietly meandering along the north side of the Santa Susana pass, heading your way. No wind right now, so with luck it will stay gentle.

[renata]

Originally posted by Thumbo

Get prepared just in case, Renata, if you're anywhere near scrubland - last report I heard from here was that the Simi fire was quietly meandering along the north side of the Santa Susana pass, heading your way. No wind right now, so with luck it will stay gentle.

Thanks, but I am in East Valley, Sherman Oaks, far away from scrubland- I hope. Let Simi burn! I am kidding, of course :) I will make an evacuation kit, get some clothes and papers together, make sure I am ready.

Today 2 JREFers and I met right before Skeptic Society lecture for lunch and wondered why no other LA people can ever make it to JREF gatherings...now I know you are all hiding from the fire.

[Electric Monk]

My parents live in Scripps Ranch. They and my sister's family had to evacuate on very short notice this morning, and are staying at my aunt and uncle's house in Del Mar.

When I got home from lunch with Renata and Wyvern, (both very nice individuals who do not bite without explicit permission), and the Skeptics Society lecture, I had a voicemail waiting for me giving me that much news. My computer had an email from them as of 4pm to me and other family members reading as follows:

Just wanted you to know that we evacuated Scripps Ranch this morning just ahead of the fire. [Dad] and I and [sister], [brother-in-law], [nephew] and [niece] are at the [aunt & uncle] Evacuation Center in Del Mar. A lot nicer than Mira Mesa Highschool!

We've been watching the house across the street from us burn [on TV]. So far we think that our house is still standing, but it is hard to tell because they are only pointing the camera up the street towards the [community] pool.

We've heard that about 20 homes on Fairbrook [their street] have been destroyed. Mostly the ones with shake roofs.
We don't think that [sister] and [brother-in-law]'s house is in immediate danger, but it is much better for them to be here with the kids. I'm sure we will be here at least tonight because the fires are still raging!

If we have to evacuate here poor Jim [me!] will probably get us!
[...]
These fires are really scary and Old Scripps with all the shake roofs and dry trees is burning too. It will really be sad to go back and see the devistation, but knowing that we are all safe and very comfortable does help. [Dad] has always said he wanted to build a house...he may have a chance to do that!
[...]
Anyway, we are fine and hopeful that our house will make it through the night. I don't know how they will get all of the fires out. The one that is burning Scripps has crossed 15 and headed across the base.

Love you all lots. Keep a good thought for our house!
The circuits were busy when I tried to call, but I finally got through to my aunt and uncle's house at about 9pm. Everyone is still fine, and I got some updates and clarification on what they know, including that they saw the three houses across the street from theirs being completely burned to the ground, and that the TV camera panned around to show their house untouched. If it has survived since then, it may be due to their tile roof and adequate brush clearance.

They're safe, in possession of their irreplaceables, in reasonably good spirits, and fully insured. Nothing else matters.

--James

[renata]

Just saw on the news that fire jumped the 118 (a big highway for those who don't know) and is approaching a development in Simi. It is a little sickening and mesmerizing to watch live, all the local stations are carrying it- the line of fire is in a great arch around this home development, in some places it appears only 50 feet away. Good luck, people in Simi.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Electric Monk

The circuits were busy when I tried to call, but I finally got through to my aunt and uncle's house at about 9pm. Everyone is still fine, and I got some updates and clarification on what they know, including that they saw the three houses across the street from theirs being completely burned to the ground, and that the TV camera panned around to show their house untouched. If it has survived since then, it may be due to their tile roof and adequate brush clearance.


They are lucky, just got word my boss lost his house. It was right in the middle of everything. :(

[iankaplan]

Fires still rage here in San Diego. All fires are at least a few miles from my apartment, yet the smell of smoke is very strong here, and the sky now that the sun has risen is a strange color that I can't recognize. It's orange or yellow and smoky. Everything is colored by these strange hues. Everything is covered with a thin film of white and grey ash. I'm supposed to go to the gym, but they keep saying it's a really bad day to work out, so I probably will stay home as the radio advises. I have asthma, and everytime I step outside to have a look, my breathing gets a bit shallow. The air is "off-the-charts dangerous" according to the NPR broadcast I'm currently listening to.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by QuarkChild
QuarkDad took this picture:
(Edited to add: it was taken around noon)

:eek: Don't let Nancy and the gang at Zetatalk get a hold of that pic.

[SRW]

This has been the hottest week of the year for us so the Army decided to have a controlled burn on the old FT Ord Military base, in Seaside Ca. Of course it was supposed to last for 8 hours, but got out of control quickly, so far it has burned for 3 days. Luckily so far no one was hurt but the fire came with in 1/4 mile of homes.

[Marc]

Got some friends from the FACTS board in the area. In the thread on that board (http://unfacts.org/cgi-bin/social1.pl?read=42628) we've been looking at some maps (http://activefiremaps.fs.fed.us/archive/cgb2003300_0300.jpg) and satellite images (http://unfacts.org/cgi-bin/social1.pl?read=42659). Getting the images from activefiremaps.fs.fed.us (http://activefiremaps.fs.fed.us/large_fire/large.php)

[Electric Monk]

Originally posted by EvilYeti
They are lucky, just got word my boss lost his house. It was right in the middle of everything. :( Sorry to hear about your boss' house. I trust everyone got out safely, and hope that they had enough notice to grab the important stuff, and that they have a better place to stay than the evacuation centers.

Yes, my family is feeling very lucky, even if it turns out that the house is gone.

--James

[Tmy]

Heres another example of the rich eating up our tax dollars!!! Whos going to pay the tab in protecting all these big houses built way out in the brush. Dont we deal with this problem every year? DO they need special isurance like those who live on the beachfront.

[Luciana]

This is so sad. :( I've been in a situation where I looked at my building and knew that at any minute the whole thing could collapse, and that I would lose everything. It happened in1990, and the problem was in the foundations of the building, shaken by a construction site nearby. We were evacuated while we felt the floor trembling under us.

Fortunately, the damage was repaired in a few days, and our home was intact. But I'll never forget looking at it - I was surrounded by reporters, spotlights, helicopters, the governor and neighbors - and think that all of my worldly possessions would be gone. I couldn't help but think that, in the next day, I would have nothing but what I was wearing. I never felt so empty. My mother, father and parrots were okay, we had places to go, but it felt like part of my life was within those walls, and that it could crumble at any minute.

No amount of insurance ever covers that. I hope that those families have rescued their most cherished belongings, and that this tragedy is soon over.

[Electric Monk]

Originally posted by Tmy
Heres another example of the rich eating up our tax dollars!!! Whos going to pay the tab in protecting all these big houses built way out in the brush. Dont we deal with this problem every year? DO they need special isurance like those who live on the beachfront. I would be in favor of having homeowners pay, through taxes or insurance, an extra amount to cover the public costs incurred by their living with a known hazard in the area. Better, of course, would be for them to pay for the measures needed to prevent or mitigate the hazard. In many cases, but not enough, in my opinion, these steps are being taken.

I cannot say how things are in all areas. But in those that I know about, the wealthier homeowners (Scripps Ranch included) are not exactly living "way out in the brush". The houses are surrounded on all sides by residential and industrial buildings, contiguous with all of metro San Diego. The open side is that occupied by the Miramar Marine Corps Air Station.

The communities that I know of that are "way out in the brush" in So Cal are typically mountain and canyon towns that are far from "rich". To be sure, there are resorts in the mountain towns that cater to those with plenty of disposable income, but these are not primary residences, and are not defended as such.

From news reports, it seems that firefighters are not making much effort to protect homes which have not maintained at least a 30' firebreak. In these cases, it is usually a lost cause and simply not worth the effort.

In all, though, I would suspect that the actual effect of such a tax would be to ensure that only the wealthy could afford to live in these beautiful but somewhat hazardous areas.

--James

P.S. Thanks for the links, Marc.

[Sanamas]

I'm also in Simi Valley right now, and things seem to be a bit better than they were on the weekend. Only thing I've noticed was a few brief power outages and the cable going down. Air is filled with smoke, but the fire seems to be not be as threatening to Simi as it was earlier. Unfortunately, it is creeping in other directions. I know that box canyon and the 118 going towards northridge are closed right now.

[reprise]

From news reports, it seems that firefighters are not making much effort to protect homes which have not maintained at least a 30' firebreak. In these cases, it is usually a lost cause and simply not worth the effort.

Given how long these fires have been burning, is there any excuse for people not having created a firebreak over the last couple of days if they didn't already have one, let alone not maintaining one which already existed?

Is it very common in that area for people to stay to defend their homes? How well prepared to do so would the average resident in that area be?

[Julia]

I grew up in San Diego, and it is so strange to hear about all of the landmarks and places where I spent so much time, now engulfed in flames. My cousin was evacuated yesterday from one of the worst hit areas, and today I have been unable to find out where they are, and if they will have a home to reurn to. Even though my sister lives close to the Bay, she said yesterday they had to keep all doors and windows shut to keep the ash and soot out.

Early this morning a friend of mine called as he was entering San Diego County. He has been a firefighter for 25 years. Almost every year he is sent from this area to fight fires in other counties and sometimes other states. They called him last night and told him he had to go help out down South, even though our county is considered to be at very high fire risk. This morning, going into San Diego, he said that in all of his years, this is the worst he has ever seen.

[Electric Monk]

Originally posted by reprise
Given how long these fires have been burning, is there any excuse for people not having created a firebreak over the last couple of days if they didn't already have one, let alone not maintaining one which already existed?For the more suburban areas bordering on scrubland, any meaningful work must be done well ahead of time. In general it is done by a homeowner's association. (As was the case in the "new" area of Scripps Ranch.) Still, burning embers can be carried for 2-3 miles if the winds are blowing, and once one home catches fire, it will greatly endanger the surrounding homes. The proper defense against this threat is to have roofs made out of non-flammable material, like ceramic tile or slate. Unfortunately, (and this is what I say they have no excuse for), many of the homes still have wood shake roofs, especially in the "old" Scripps Ranch area. Safe to say that most of them no longer have such roofs. Or walls.

As far as the amount of warning that they had, a few days would not suffice for creating a sufficient fire break, either in the suburban or the rural areas, unless (as one enterprising individual did) they owned their own bulldozer.

It was also not truely the case that they had days to accomplish the task. The fire that has endangered my family's house, for instance, was started at 5:37pm on Saturday by a lost hiker about 20 miles away. By 9am Sunday, my parents were being ordered to evacuate immediately. By that afternoon, the fire had burned over 100,000 acres, or about 55 square miles. It is presently being described as "covering an area larger than Chicago." (Nice fire reference.)

Is it very common in that area for people to stay to defend their homes? How well prepared to do so would the average resident in that area be? There are some who will stay to soak with water as much of their property and rooftop as they can manage. Most people seem to be pretty sensible about this, though, and simply evacuate when the police come by. I'd say that it's about as common as I hear about those "riding out" hurricanes.

As far as preparedness, the only thing I've seen people do is to turn on their sprinklers and use garden hoses to make things wet. I cannot think of this as "being prepared" at all, merely "being desperate".

--James

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Electric Monk
By that afternoon, the fire had burned over 100,000 acres, or about 55 square miles. It is presently being described as "covering an area larger than Chicago." (Nice fire reference.)
Well, at least we learned our lesson. No more frame construction here in over 120 years, brick only. Of course, there's still a lot wood buildings here (including mine) because Chicago wasn't nearly as big back then.

They really should mandate that these homes that burned be rebuilt w/ brick and tile roofs.

Be careful out there!

[renata]

Originally posted by reprise


Given how long these fires have been burning, is there any excuse for people not having created a firebreak over the last couple of days if they didn't already have one, let alone not maintaining one which already existed?



Echoing what James said, but adding two things. Today people on the news that fire fighters urged people not to use bulldozers, tractors and other machinery to clear shrubs near homes, because they are afraid it will hit some rocks, get sparks and get more fires. It is extremely dry here, and anything will get a new fire going. Also, the big problem in Orange county, which had fire breaks was the tall palms on fire- they spread embers on roofs over huge distances.

[reprise]

There are some who will stay to soak with water as much of their property and rooftop as they can manage. Most people seem to be pretty sensible about this, though, and simply evacuate when the police come by. I'd say that it's about as common as I hear about those "riding out" hurricanes.

This sounds like a major difference between the way bushfires are tackled here and there - possibly because the vast majority of firefighting services in Australia are comprised of volunteers and so it's very often only the combination of the fire services equipment and expertise combined with the manpower of the community which saves lives and property. It's really only in suburbia that people have the attitude that protecting and saving their property from destruction by fire is the job of the fire service.

[whim]

Brick building + earthquake = instant rubble.

Originally posted by WildCat

Well, at least we learned our lesson. No more frame construction here in over 120 years, brick only. Of course, there's still a lot wood buildings here (including mine) because Chicago wasn't nearly as big back then.

They really should mandate that these homes that burned be rebuilt w/ brick and tile roofs.

Be careful out there!

[reprise]

Originally posted by renata
Echoing what James said, but adding two things. Today people on the news that fire fighters urged people not to use bulldozers, tractors and other machinery to clear shrubs near homes, because they are afraid it will hit some rocks, get sparks and get more fires. It is extremely dry here, and anything will get a new fire going. Also, the big problem in Orange county, which had fire breaks was the tall palms on fire- they spread embers on roofs over huge distances.

Here, it is almost always embers on rooves which cause houses to catch on fire during bushfires. Over the last two bushfire seasons there has been a lot of talk about introducing mandatory fire prevention standards in bushfire prone areas and fire services being able to carry out prevention work on private property before the bushfire season and charge the owner for the doing so. Far, far too much of the fire service's time and energy is spent defending homes which have no firebreaks, no stand alone water supply, and which have large trees and other fuel within a few metres of the house - things which present a significant hazard to properties other than that of the owner.

We need far tougher insurance provisions here for those who choose to build in bushfire prone areas but take no serious measures to reduce the bushfire risk on their properties. The community as a whole, homeowners who do the right thing, the taxpayer, and the emergency services in particular should not be required to keep bearing the cost of individual homeowner's apathy.

[DialecticMaterialist]

I live in the area. I was worried for a bit but doubted it would get too serious for me. Though I could see some of the fire from the mountain, apparently it was in Escondido which is real close (its a few miles from where I live, the Escondido, San Marcos "border"). I guess it is pretty unfortunate.

[Electric Monk]

Originally posted by WildCat

Well, at least we learned our lesson. No more frame construction here in over 120 years, brick only. Of course, there's still a lot wood buildings here (including mine) because Chicago wasn't nearly as big back then.

They really should mandate that these homes that burned be rebuilt w/ brick and tile roofs.To expand on what Whim said, in California we've been learning our lesson since the 1906 San Francisco quake not to build with (unreinforced) brick.

The biggest construction problem by far with the fires is the roof, and some still won't learn that lesson, but there are fewer each year (due to attrition alone). People with combustible roofs already pay a stiff penalty on their insurance, but maybe now it will become part of the building code in particularly vulnerable areas.

It is a community issue after all, functioning in much the same manner as vaccination.

-----

I'm just off the phone with my mom. She says that a list of destroyed homes online includes the next three houses to the east, and the three across the street, but not theirs, nor the one immediately to the west of them. They could not visit the area today, although Gray Davis spoke to reporters from their street. They will try again tomorrow morning.

--James

[Frank Newgent]

How come Schwarzenegger's not out there shooting arsonist kneecap?