How many challanges have ever made it to the second round

[Rodibidably]

Looking through the Challenge Applications, it seems hardly any even make it to a preliminary test, and I have yet yo find one that passed that (granted I have not read them all, but I have read a pretty sizable number).

So in the history of the MDC, how many (if any) have ever passed that first test, and made it to the second test?

[drkitten]

Looking through the Challenge Applications, it seems hardly any even make it to a preliminary test, and I have yet yo find one that passed that (granted I have not read them all, but I have read a pretty sizable number).

So in the history of the MDC, how many (if any) have ever passed that first test, and made it to the second test?

No one has ever passed a preliminary test.

[Thabiguy]

You'll find this information in the MDC FAQ (http://www.randi.org/joom/million-dollar-challenge-faq.html) and also in Challenge Info (http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html). I'm not telling you the answer right away on purpose, because I think it is better that you read the whole FAQ.

ETA: Ah well, it didn't work. :)

[RoboTimbo]

Exactly as many as would be expected. Doesn't look to be changing anytime soon.

[Rodibidably]

Thanks all.

I had looked over the FAQ once a long time back, but I guess I had not caught (or remembered) that nobody had ever passed the first round.

[The Professor]

Exactly as many as would be expected. Doesn't look to be changing anytime soon.

Yes you are correct! No one is ever expected to be tested :)
A very fair presupposition :)

[brodski]

Yes you are correct! No one is ever expected to be tested :)
A very fair presupposition :)

that is not what was posted, nor is it a fair reflection of reality.

[Pogo]

that is not what was posted, nor is it a fair reflection of reality.
Reality seems a difficult concept for The Professor.

[jimtron]

Yes you are correct! No one is ever expected to be tested :)
A very fair presupposition :)

If anyone out there truly has a testable paranormal ability, let's see it. They should apply. If they follow the rules they can apply and if they really have a testable ability they'll get the million. If they do follow the rules and the JREF doesn't test them, document that and take them to task for it. Then show the ability to a university or on TV etc, and enjoy being rich and famous and putting JREF in their place.

So far, I haven't seen anyone demonstrate a paranormal ability that can't be explained as deception and/or technology.

Dave, what testable paranormal abilities do you or others have? I would very much like to learn about them.

eta: I want to see real paranormal stuff. Someone please show me where I can see real paranormal activity--something that cannot be done without technology or deception etc.--something that is unequivocally, clearly paranormal.

[steenkh]

Yes you are correct! No one is ever expected to be tested :)
A very fair presupposition :)
Several preliminary tests have already been performed, so it is not a surprise that more tests will come.

However, it is a fair supposition that nobody will pass the preliminary test. Not because the test is unfair, but because they do not have abilities that they claim to have.

[devnull]

Id expect something approximating 1 in every 1000 preliminary tests to be successful.

[Czarcasm]

Id expect something approximating 1 in every 1000 preliminary tests to be successful.Would you expect 1 in every 1000 coins flipped to levitate instead of land?

[Moochie]

Professor -- Claim & Protocol, please. Try to remain focused -- time's slipping by.


M.

[Mojo]

Would you expect 1 in every 1000 coins flipped to levitate instead of land?


No, but if the preliminary test is based on the applicant beating odds of 1:1,000 we would expect to see a average of one success for every 1,000 completed tests in the absence of any real paranormal abilities.

[The Professor]

Jeff and I have agreed to work on it. I am here only waiting for my posting to be approved. You see, this was the EXACT QUESTION that i asked that got me started on the road to testability.
At first none of the Skeptics would answer me. Then I read the JREF site and found out that in 13 years NO ONE had ever been allowed to take the test. The preliminary test is
NOT mandatory and the JREF can let anyone take the test straight up the very first time.
For some strange reason it is up to them alone to decide who gets the free pass. No one has ever been allowed to. Makes you wonder why they say that then doesn't it?

When Randi talks about it in public he rarely mentions that you must take the test
twice. :)

[Czarcasm]

Jeff and I have agreed to work on it. I am here only waiting for my posting to be approved. You see, this was the EXACT QUESTION that i asked that got me started on the road to testability.
At first none of the Skeptics would answer me. Then I read the JREF site and found out that in 13 years NO ONE had ever been allowed to take the test. The preliminary test is
NOT mandatory and the JREF can let anyone take the test straight up the very first time.
For some strange reason it is up to them alone to decide who gets the free pass. No one has ever been allowed to. Makes you wonder why they say that then doesn't it?

When Randi talks about it in public he rarely mentions that you must take the test
twice. :)Why should someone who can't even get through the first test without a lot a vague claims, whining and accusations worry about taking a second test?

[Azrael 5]

Jeff and I have agreed to work on it. I am here only waiting for my posting to be approved. You see, this was the EXACT QUESTION that i asked that got me started on the road to testability.
At first none of the Skeptics would answer me. Then I read the JREF site and found out that in 13 years NO ONE had ever been allowed to take the test. The preliminary test is
NOT mandatory and the JREF can let anyone take the test straight up the very first time.
For some strange reason it is up to them alone to decide who gets the free pass. No one has ever been allowed to. Makes you wonder why they say that then doesn't it?

When Randi talks about it in public he rarely mentions that you must take the test
twice. :)
To anyone with eyes it's written in black and white in the challenge rules you will be tested twice.Have you recorded every interview,Q an A,lecture Randi has ever given to arrive at this conclusion?

Nope didn't think so.
It's the tick tock show Dave,and time's running out. :)

[Czarcasm]

No, but if the preliminary test is based on the applicant beating odds of 1:1,000 we would expect to see a average of one success for every 1,000 completed tests in the absence of any real paranormal abilities.O.k., point taken. Of course, it would depend on finding a thousand woos who would:
1. Be willing to take the test, and
2. Be capable of submitting a proper protocol that follows all the rules.
I think it's these two stipulations that pushes the odds to 1:100,000,000,000 :D

[Mojo]

The preliminary test is NOT mandatory...


Have you read Rule 6?

[chillzero]

Please keep discussion of The Professor's specific claim in the relevant thread. There are moderation consequences for avoiding the moderated status of a thread by posting it elsewhere.

[jimtron]

When Randi talks about it in public he rarely mentions that you must take the test
twice.

So what. If anyone out there has paranormal powers, they take the test twice and then enjoy their million. Tell me, who really truly has paranormal powers? I would like to see real paranormal powers demonstrated.

[Pantaz]

No, but if the preliminary test is based on the applicant beating odds of 1:1,000 we would expect to see a average of one success for every 1,000 completed tests in the absence of any real paranormal abilities.

To be clear, it would have to be the same claim, tested 1000 times. Not 1000 different claims being tested one time each.

But then, it's always possible that the "1" (out of 1000) would occur on the very first attempt. THAT is one big reason why the MDC requires the claimant's ability be proven twice.

[drkitten]

hen I read the JREF site and found out that in 13 years NO ONE had ever been allowed to take the test.

That's obviously untrue; The preliminary test has been attempted dozens of times, as you can plainly see.



For some strange reason it is up to them alone to decide who gets the free pass.

And they do it very rarely as a publicity stunt -- no one has ever taken them up on the offer for the free pass, either.

No one has ever been allowed to. Makes you wonder why they say that then doesn't it?

Well, it may make YOU wonder, but it doesn't make any honest person wonder.




When Randi talks about it in public he rarely mentions that you must take the test
twice. :)

He also rarely mentions that you have to apply in English. That's why you have to read the rules.

[RoboTimbo]

Yes you are correct! No one is ever expected to be tested :)
A very fair presupposition :)

Strawman. MANY have been tested. None passed when they were held up to critical thinking. So far, that means no paranormal abilities, just self-deluded people or charlatans. Which camp were you trying to defend with your post?

Rodibidably, I can highly recommend reading all of the challenge applications. It's extremely educational.

[The Professor]

Wake up!!!!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN TESTED FOR THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!!!!!
The JREF has NEVER risked the money! It's a hard cold fact that leaves closed minded followers looking for an excuse. Why not ask WHY? Why not be a REAL Skeptic and question the Leader of the Band? He will just play his music and you will just tap your feet :)

[jenski]

When Randi talks about it in public he rarely mentions that you must take the test
twice. :)


Why is that an issue for you? If you have the abilites, showing them off twice should not be difficult - especially if you have shown them off before. If I had an ability that could put a millon dollars in my pocket, you can be sure I'd do it twice.

[Personal Grudge]

Wake up!!!!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN TESTED FOR THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!!!!!
The JREF has NEVER risked the money! It's a hard cold fact that leaves closed minded followers looking for an excuse. Why not ask WHY? Why not be a REAL Skeptic and question the Leader of the Band? He will just play his music and you will just tap your feet :)

I have happily asked why no one has ever taken the final test in the MDC challenge for the one million. After questioning, I followed it up with research.

In reviewing the MDC challenge preliminary tests of the past, you can find protocols that were agreed to as fair by the challenger... and a following inability to do what they said they can do. Are you denying the possibility that... just maybe... the million has never been at risk because no applicant has been able to successfully do what they said they could?

[Coveredinbeeees]

Wake up!!!!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN TESTED FOR THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!!!!!
The JREF has NEVER risked the money! It's a hard cold fact that leaves closed minded followers looking for an excuse. Why not ask WHY? Why not be a REAL Skeptic and question the Leader of the Band? He will just play his music and you will just tap your feet :)

No one has passed the Preliminary test. If they cannot pass the preliminary test then there is no reason to apply the final test. It is Randi's challenge. If he wishes it to be run such that applicants must pass a preliminary test before the final test why should anyone be concerned? The important part is that the preliminary test is fair and agreed upon by both parties and yet no one has passed it.

Asking why there is a preliminary test is a fair thing. To me, it seemes self evident. A preliminary test saves Randi's time. Preliminary tests can be run entirely in his absence so long as he has approved the protocol, leaving him free to get on with the rest of his work. If someone passed the preliminary test by demonstrating an actual paranormal ability then Randi would, no doubt, attend the final test (although he would not be the one to administer it).

[jenski]

Wake up!!!!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN TESTED FOR THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!!!!!
The JREF has NEVER risked the money! It's a hard cold fact that leaves closed minded followers looking for an excuse. Why not ask WHY? Why not be a REAL Skeptic and question the Leader of the Band? He will just play his music and you will just tap your feet :)

Research isn't your strong point.

[Czarcasm]

Wake up!!!!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN TESTED FOR THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!!!!!
The JREF has NEVER risked the money! It's a hard cold fact that leaves closed minded followers looking for an excuse. Why not ask WHY? Why not be a REAL Skeptic and question the Leader of the Band? He will just play his music and you will just tap your feet :)Not only that, but no one has ever teleported to the top of the Empire State Building either! I'll bet JREF had their wicked hands in that conspiracy, too! And what about the FACT that no one has EVAR drawn five aces from a standard deck of playing cards! I mean, millions of games-NOT ONE HAND OF FIVE ACES!!!
YOU do the math!!!!!!!!

[Coveredinbeeees]

When Randi talks about it in public he rarely mentions that you must take the test
twice. :)

Could it be that he talks about taking the Challenge? You may be tested twice but you would have taken the challenge only once.

Likewise if he refers to people claiming a paranormal ability being tested, there is no reason to assume that only one test will be performed. The manner in which the challenge is conducted is laid out clearly on this very website. Anyone who is interested in its workings can come here and read about it for themselves as well as reading through the protocol negotiations of many of the previous applicants.

[RoboTimbo]

Wake up!!!!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN TESTED FOR THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!!!!!
The JREF has NEVER risked the money! It's a hard cold fact that leaves closed minded followers looking for an excuse. Why not ask WHY? Why not be a REAL Skeptic and question the Leader of the Band? He will just play his music and you will just tap your feet :)

You :) put your million on the line and ask for takers who can prove the paranormal exists. Let's see what kind of challenge you :) would have. Would you allow YOU :) to take it with the claim and protocol you've given JREF? Would you question it at all? Would you :) allow every charlatan and self-delusional wacko free rein on sneaking through a protocol as leaky as a seive? Not to mention that you don't even have a concrete claim yet.

I'm going to let you in on a secret. Randi, JREF, most of the critical thinkers on here, they think that the paranormal doesn't exist. That's right, they actually think that. In fact, they're so confident of it that JREF is challenging anyone who can demonstrate a real paranormal phenomenon and offering $1 million prize for doing so.

I'm going to let you in on another secret. They know there are frauds :) and charlatans :) who will want to take the million and get themselves some major publicity. That's why they insist on a claim and protocol that rules out magic stunts and trickery. That's the part that just zings the frauds :) and hoaxers :) into apoplexy.

The million is safe from the likes of you :) for that very reason, not because there is any deceit on JREF's part. There just isn't any paranormal phenomenon. You :) know it, so get over your hissy fit.

(*You'll notice I highlighted everywhere I mentioned you with :))

[fls]

Wake up!!!!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN TESTED FOR THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!!!!!
The JREF has NEVER risked the money! It's a hard cold fact that leaves closed minded followers looking for an excuse. Why not ask WHY? Why not be a REAL Skeptic and question the Leader of the Band? He will just play his music and you will just tap your feet :)

I bet this is true (not a million dollars, but I'll bet 100 for real).

When I look at old videos, like when Randi was on "What's My Line" with Bob Barker* in order to challenge the fellow that could move telephone book pages and precariously balanced pencils with his mind, he had a $10,000 cheque in his pocket that he was willing to hand over. As far as I know (which admittedly is not very far), he has not done the same thing since The Challenge changed to a million dollars. But that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, should it? That's a lot of money, so the natural reaction should be a little more caution, shouldn't it? What do you think The Professor? I could lose $10,000 without too much distress, but losing $1,000,000 would really wipe me out. And I'm better off than most people. One doesn't have to "drink the Kool-aid"* in order to feel sympathy with the idea of caution, does one?

Linda

*Apologies in advance if I have grossly misrepresented any of the details by not bothering to double-check any of them.

*In the interests of full disclosure, no one drinks Kool-aid in my house since I stingily squirrel away all Kool-aid packages for use in the dyeing of wool. If anyone has any old packages of Raspberry (the only ones that give that lovely turquoisey-blue colour), please contact me.

[The Professor]

Loved your post fls!

It seems everyone is tapping their foot in unison. Randi must be proud :)

fls ... I was only referring to the last 13 years. :) (That's what I think I'd stated previously)

Question; Why does Randi say that the first test may be waved if he never has done it?

Does he say that just to look good?

The moderators are not posting anything on my challenge so I'm stuck with you guys right now. Sorry for the inconvenience
.

[Doubt]

Wake up!!!!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN TESTED FOR THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!!!!!

Several people have already pointed out to you that this is not an accurate statement since there are two parts to the challenge. Many have done the preliminary test. none have passed.

continuing to make such an inaccurate statement is disingenuous on your part.

The JREF has NEVER risked the money! It's a hard cold fact that leaves closed minded followers looking for an excuse. Why not ask WHY? Why not be a REAL Skeptic and question the Leader of the Band? He will just play his music and you will just tap your feet :)

The money is at risk every time a protocol is accepted. If somebody can pass the preliminary test then their is an excellent chance they will pass the final test.

Problem is, most people cannot even define what they are doing and won't accept a meaningful test. Those that can define what they can do end up not being able to do it.

The only way somebody is going to get to the final test is to be either a very, very good trickster or the real thing. So far neither has shown up.

[Azrael 5]

Professor it's interesting you ask so many questions-admittedly on the same boring subject-but yet cannot answer any put to you.Very curious.

As I pointed out to you on Magic Cafe go to aske.org and there is a large list of worldwide challenges for large sums of money,maybe with slacker rules than the JREF.Go apply for them.One even guarantees you a free pass to take the million dollar test(i.e skip the preliminary)yet it's strange you haven't done this.After all this is exactly what you asked to do-go straight for the big money!

Here I've saved you the task yet again.
Canada: Les Sceptiques du Quebec CAN$10,000 award ($9,000 approx)
Open To:
Anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

This challenge is run in conjunction with the James Randi Educational Foundation. The winning of this prize will also be considered a successful completion of the JREF preliminary test (see link).
Link : http://www.sceptiques.qc.ca/DS/dsmain.html (http://www.sceptiques.qc.ca/activites/defi) (in French - click here (http://babelfish.altavista.com/) for the Alta Vista Babel Fish Translation service)

http://www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/AwardList.html

Roll up Dave,you've got a week and you can go straight for the million no messing.
What do you say? How about it? This can all be wrapped up in 6 weeks and you'll be a millionaire!

Oh! Wait a minute this just in..

China: Sima Nan 10,000,000 yuan award ($1,200,000 approx)
Open to:
Anyone who can prove, under strict scientific conditions, that they have supernatural powers.

*Attempts are still being made to verify the details of this challenge.*

The winning of this prize will also be considered a successful completion of the JREF preliminary test.
Winners of the JREF $1,000,000 challenge will automatically be awarded this prize too.
Source: http://www.randi.org/jr/11-30-1999.html (http://www.randi.org/jr/11-30-1999.html)

Here Dave get you're skates on and pass this,straight thru like a bullet for the million.Forget Jeff Wagg and his one week limit,just take that and be green lighted for the biggie!! Make some extra cash into the bargain.

This is crazyAustralia: Australian Skeptics' AUD$100,000 award ($75,000 approx)
Open to:
Those with psychic/paranormal powers.

Upon successful completion of the test, the claimant will be awarded AUD$80,000 and the person who introduced the claimant AUD$20,000. If the successful claimant contacted the Australian Skeptics him/herself, AUD$100,000 will be awarded.
Link: http://www.skeptics.com.au/prizes/challenge.htm (http://www.skeptics.com.au/prizes/challenge.htm)

On occasions, tests performed in an attempt to win this prize have been accepted (by representatives of the James Randi Educational Foundation) as also constituting the preliminary tests for the JREF million dollar challenge.


They're practically giving money away! "Go on through Dave Koenig" they're almost saying "the million dollar challenge awaits"

Ah but they have reckoned on you have they Professor? You are just an amateur magician who cannot do anything above parlor tricks.When all is said and done,this is what it boils down to.
Well im sorry if I spoiled your delusions an all,but you sure as hell gave me a laugh along the way. :)

[The Pig]

Question; Why does Randi say that the first test may be waved if he never has done it?Assuming this is true, it may depend on the claim. Dowsing; identifying the contents of a box; matching an object to its owner; and the like are numbers games. In other words, a person with no paranormal ability would eventually pass if they took the test enough times. The preliminary test ensures that it's sufficiently unlikely for a person with no paranormal ability to win the money.

A single demonstration of a claim such as levitation; walking through walls; turning into a chicken; and the like may be enough to convince Randi of a person's ability.

[fls]

fls ... I was only referring to the last 13 years. :) (That's what I think I'd stated previously)

Question; Why does Randi say that the first test may be waved if he never has done it?

Maybe he's never gotten around to changing his spiel?

Does he say that just to look good?

I don't know. I don't think saying it makes him look good, though. There's lots of other stuff he could say that would do a better job of making him look good. I suspect he doesn't care. I also suspect that I don't.

Linda

[The Professor]

Professor it's interesting you ask so many questions-admittedly on the same boring subject-but yet cannot answer any put to you.Very curious.

As I pointed out to you on Magic Cafe go to aske.org and there is a large list of worldwide challenges for large sums of money,maybe with slacker rules than the JREF.Go apply for them.One even guarantees you a free pass to take the million dollar test(i.e skip the preliminary)yet it's strange you haven't done this.After all this is exactly what you asked to do-go straight for the big money!

Here I've saved you the task yet again.


http://www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/AwardList.html

Roll up Dave,you've got a week and you can go straight for the million no messing.
What do you say? How about it? This can all be wrapped up in 6 weeks and you'll be a millionaire!

Oh! Wait a minute this just in..


Here Dave get you're skates on and pass this,straight thru like a bullet for the million.Forget Jeff Wagg and his one week limit,just take that and be green lighted for the biggie!! Make some extra cash into the bargain.

This is crazy

They're practically giving money away! "Go on through Dave Koenig" they're almost saying "the million dollar challenge awaits"

Ah but they have reckoned on you have they Professor? You are just an amateur magician who cannot do anything above parlor tricks.When all is said and done,this is what it boils down to.
Well im sorry if I spoiled your delusions an all,but you sure as hell gave me a laugh along the way. :)

Thanks
I was going to ask you about these but it appears you've been kicked off of the Magic Cafe again so I didn't have the chance :)

[Pantaz]

Thanks
I was going to ask you about these but it appears you've been kicked off of the Magic Cafe again so I didn't have the chance :)

Yet another fine example of Mr. Koenig's passive-aggressive behaviour. :)

[Smackety]

My ability to levitate small object got me through the first round. Then I was killed by the JREF and all the evidence destroyed.

in a past life...

This time around I didn't get any paranormal powers :mad:
But anyway, you cannot say no-one ever made it to the second round, you have my semi-firsthand testimony that the preliminary challenge has actually been passed.

[rjh01]

I have just quoted a posts from this thread in this thread here http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4054644#post4054644.

Yes it is a comment on the contents of the post.

I hope the mods do not mind. :boxedin:

[Pixel42]

Question; Why does Randi say that the first test may be waved if he never has done it?
Didn't he waive it for the BBC Horizon programme's homeopathy test? I seem to recall he had the $10,000 cheque in his pocket ready to hand over, with the rest of the million shortly to follow, if the test proved positive.

[rjh01]

Here is the link to BBC Horizon program http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

Horizon conducts its own scientific experiment, to try and win his money. If they succeed, they will not only be $1m richer - they will also force scientists to rethink some of their fundamental beliefs.

[MattC]

It's worth pointing out that the article makes mention of how Mr. Randi insisted upon strict controls for every experiment he was involved with.


Randi and the team watched Benveniste's team repeat the experiment. They went to extraordinary lengths to ensure that none of the scientists involved knew which samples were the homeopathic solutions, and which ones were the controls - even taping the sample codes to the ceiling for the duration of the experiment. This time, Benveniste's results were inconclusive, and the scientific community remained unconvinced by Benveniste's memory of water theory.



... (Mr.) Randi insisted that strict precautions be taken...

[Azrael 5]

Thanks
I was going to ask you about these but it appears you've been kicked off of the Magic Cafe again so I didn't have the chance :)

It's no biggie,it was likely to happen eventually,with the censorship there;but I do know you and your lover Jim reported me over there.Still nothing to stop you applying.But we all know you won't because you have no paranormal abilities.
Funny though.
It's true:)

[jenski]

Loved your post fls!

It seems everyone is tapping their foot in unison. Randi must be proud :)

fls ... I was only referring to the last 13 years. :) (That's what I think I'd stated previously)

Question; Why does Randi say that the first test may be waved if he never has done it?

Does he say that just to look good?

The moderators are not posting anything on my challenge so I'm stuck with you guys right now. Sorry for the inconvenience
.


I don't recall tapping my foot. I am watching you with bemused interest as continually post comments such as these while leaving your protocol sadly untouched.

Hmmm...could it be that you don't really wish to take the test at all and it's easier to sit back proclaiming the Evil Randites are stopping you?

[DevilsAdvocate]

It seems everyone is tapping their foot in unison. Randi must be proud :)

fls ... I was only referring to the last 13 years. :) (That's what I think I'd stated previously)

Question; Why does Randi say that the first test may be waved if he never has done it?

Does he say that just to look good?

The moderators are not posting anything on my challenge so I'm stuck with you guys right now. Sorry for the inconvenience.Sorry you are stuck with "us". There have been many preliminary tests. Some quite recently. Click on the Challenge Applications forum. You can see a whole bunch of paranormalists fail to do what they claim they can do. No blind foot tapping to a cult leader. Actual applications. Actual copies of correspondence. Actual tests. Actual videos. Actual failures.

I can’t find an example at the moment, but if I recall correctly, Randi has offered to “wave” the preliminary test when he challenged some people. The reason he may do this is because he has seen the charlatan’s act enough that he is so confident that the would-be applicant cannot do what they claim to be able to do under controlled conditions that he does not need to see a preliminary example of their so-called ability before going straight to calling their bluff. Everyone else has to pass a preliminary. You probably fall into the category of “everyone else”. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[RoboTimbo]

At least the deluded ones sometimes eventually come up with a claim and a protocol and therefore get to take the preliminary test. Of course, it's because they are self-deluded that they don't realize they didn't really have a paranormal ability and so, don't pass.

It's the liars and self-promoting frauds :) who never even make it that far.

[Ron_Tomkins]

So here's the irony:

Q: How manny challenges have ever made it to the second round?

A: As matter of fact, no one has ever passed the preliminary test.


AHA! Doesn't that seem a little bit suspicious? Looks like the JREF is cheating.


Ok. So it couldn't possibly mean that there's a lot of people who claim to have supernatural powers, but are full of ****. That is a lot less reasonable than say: a bunch of people have superpowers which we have no evidence of and the only reason we have no evidence of this is because an educational foundation is making up these weird tests filled with tricks to keep them from revealing their powers.

[MattC]

...

That is a lot less reasonable than say: a bunch of people have superpowers which we have no evidence of and the only reason we have no evidence of this is because an educational foundation is making up these weird tests filled with tricks to keep them from revealing their powers.

Both sides agree to the protocol before any test begins.

If there truly was some sort of trick, it seems fallacious and self-defeating for the applicant to let it ride within the protocol.

I invite you or anyone else who thinks there is some sort of trickery going on to look over any protocol in the challenge applications section and examine the protocols that have gone to the preliminaries. Please present any sort of evidence for this belief that there is trickery going on.

~ Matt

[Professor Yaffle]

Both sides agree to the protocol before any test begins.

If there truly was some sort of trick, it seems fallacious and self-defeating for the applicant to let it ride within the protocol.

I invite you or anyone else who thinks there is some sort of trickery going on to look over any protocol in the challenge applications section and examine the protocols that have gone to the preliminaries. Please present any sort of evidence for this belief that there is trickery going on.

~ Matt

Erm, I think Ron was being sarcastic...

[chillzero]

There are a few posts still ignoring the mod box in post 20. Do not continue to personalise this thread, or discuss personal issues arising from other boards. Continuing to do so may lead to posts being infracted, edited and deleted.

[Azrael 5]

please do not ignore mod directions, and please stick to the topic of this thread

[MattC]

Erm, I think Ron was being sarcastic...

Ron, my apologies if this is the case. I'm new here and don't know many people yet.

~ Matt

[Moochie]

Wake up!!!!!!
NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN TESTED FOR THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE!!!!!!!
The JREF has NEVER risked the money! It's a hard cold fact that leaves closed minded followers looking for an excuse. Why not ask WHY? Why not be a REAL Skeptic and question the Leader of the Band? He will just play his music and you will just tap your feet :)

Actually, most of us have been around a long time and have assiduously followed all the attempts at the MDC, and have seen how all the applicants failed the preliminary test because they couldn't do what they claimed to be able to do. Will this be your story also, or will you be the one who turns the world on its head?


M.

[Azrael 5]

Actually, most of us have been around a long time and have assiduously followed all the attempts at the MDC, and have seen how all the applicants failed the preliminary test because they couldn't do what they claimed to be able to do. Will this be your story also, or will you be the one who turns the world on its head?


M.
This is rhetorical I assume? :p

[Moochie]

This is rhetorical I assume? :p

Only if Mr. K.'s entire output here is. :)


M.

[Azrael 5]

Only if Mr. K.'s entire output here is. :)


M.
Well I know where the smart money is.;)

[Rodibidably]

Rodibidably, I can highly recommend reading all of the challenge applications. It's extremely educational.
It's taking some time, but I have been going through them all as I have time.

In some cases it's just plain sad to see how self deluded people are. In other cases it seems that there are a fair number of out-right frauds, who once unable to get the protocol set-up in a way to allow them to cheat, seem to either drop out of the MDC or get combative.

The one thing that surprised me was the extent that the JREF has bent over backwards in some cases with people that to me seemed OBVIOUSLY delusional. There was more than case I read through that I felt the JREF had been too lax on the protocol to accomodate the applicant (hense my post: In Theory, could Randi's Challenge be beaten by a trick (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=123466)).

But I must say, reading through them has given me a new appreciation for what Randi and the JREF have ot deal with on a regular basis, and it seems to make sense why they changed the rules a bit to weed out some of the more blatent cranks.

[The Professor]

It's taking some time, but I have been going through them all as I have time.

In some cases it's just plain sad to see how self deluded people are. In other cases it seems that there are a fair number of out-right frauds, who once unable to get the protocol set-up in a way to allow them to cheat, seem to either drop out of the MDC or get combative.

The one thing that surprised me was the extent that the JREF has bent over backwards in some cases with people that to me seemed OBVIOUSLY delusional. There was more than case I read through that I felt the JREF had been too lax on the protocol to accomodate the applicant (hense my post: In Theory, could Randi's Challenge be beaten by a trick (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=123466)).

But I must say, reading through them has given me a new appreciation for what Randi and the JREF have ot deal with on a regular basis, and it seems to make sense why they changed the rules a bit to weed out some of the more blatent cranks.

If I claimed that I could make Jeff Wagg Pee His Pants, they would test me tomorrow. Then in the test the Testee :) would go in the bathroom secretly and put a Close Pin on his Manly Part and later say .. "You just have to take my word for it" you've failed ... very scientific :) LOL
You are correct that they only allow the ones they can ridicule successfully apply!

[fls]

If I claimed that I could make Jeff Wagg Pee His Pants, they would test me tomorrow. Then in the test the Testee :) would go in the bathroom secretly and put a Close Pin on his Manly Part and later say .. "You just have to take my word for it" you've failed ... very scientific :) LOL

You're right. The video portion of the test really should have included 15 minutes of a close-up of Jeff's penis. I need to start paying more attention to the challenge applications to make sure opportunities aren't missed valid testing procedures are held up upheld.

Linda

[Rodibidably]

You are correct that they only allow the ones they can ridicule successfully apply!
I never said that.
If you're going to act as if you're agreeing with me, please agree with something I actually said, not some random assemblage of words that you made up.

I understand that you're obviously not a big fan of Randi and the MDC, but lying about the comments of others does nothing but make YOU look like a fool. I'm sure you want to be seen as the rational and reasonable one in your "feud" with Randi, so I'd suggest not intentionally making yourself look like a fool whenever possible.

[fls]

If I claimed that I could make Jeff Wagg Pee His Pants, they would test me tomorrow. Then in the test the Testee :) would go in the bathroom secretly and put a Close Pin on his Manly Part and later say .. "You just have to take my word for it" you've failed ... very scientific :) LOL
You are correct that they only allow the ones they can ridicule successfully apply!

Oh, and it's clothespin.

Linda

[William Smith]

You're right. The video portion of the test really should have included 15 minutes of a close-up of Jeff's penis. I need to start paying more attention to the challenge applications to make sure opportunities aren't missed valid testing procedures are held up upheld.

Linda

You should volunteer to ... lend a hand.

Off-topic, I know. It even shrank my font size. :o

[Azrael 5]

I think if anyone did get to the second round people would still complain,say the test was a fix blahblahblah.

Some people just hate it when the paranormal is dissed.Others just want to cry foul and by applying for the MDC think the world will sit up and agree with them.

[Rodibidably]

If I thought that I had a genuine paranormal ability (or was sufficiently good at magic or tricks or some sort) I'd apply right away.

I don't know about the Prof, but I sure could use $1mil (even if Uncle Sam does take 50% for taxes), and I'm sure that winning the MDC would lead to AT LEAST a Vegas gig (if not TV, movie, and book deals) where I'd make even more $.

[Pantaz]

If I claimed that I could make Jeff Wagg Pee His Pants, they would test me tomorrow.

Think so? Rosemary Hunter's application (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89877) was noted on August 10, 2007. The final protocol was posted September 29, 2007, and the test was administered November 12, 2007.

Looks like just another false assertion from Mr. Koenig.

Passive-aggressive response expected soon!

[William Smith]

Think so? Rosemary Hunter's application (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89877) was noted on August 10, 2007. The final protocol was posted September 29, 2007, and the test was administered November 12, 2007.

Looks like just another false assertion from Mr. Koenig.

Passive-aggressive response expected soon!

Technically, I consider TP's post to be - correctly and rightfully - paraphrasing. He's still missing a claim though and hence will have it difficult to proceed to the second round.

[The Professor]

Oh, and it's clothespin.

Linda

Thanks Linda, I'm sure you know much more about such things as I might :)

Just wasn't SCIENTIFIC was it :)

She should get a new preliminary test. Actually she should move straight to the second test since the JREF screwed this one up so unfairly. The test proved nothing. Some heavy critical thinking going on here :)

The Million denied by a sneaky CLOTHESPIN :confused:

[William Smith]

The JREF should ask for Chris Cooley to volunteer for the re-test. What with the one stone and all that.

If he retracts, Ron Jeremy, Peter North or Rocco Siffredi should be up to the task.

And play the R. Kelly video on a continuous loop.

[RoboTimbo]

Thanks Linda, I'm sure you know much more about such things as I might :)

Just wasn't SCIENTIFIC was it :)

She should get a new preliminary test. Actually she should move straight to the second test since the JREF screwed this one up so unfairly. The test proved nothing. Some heavy critical thinking going on here :)

The Million denied by a sneaky CLOTHESPIN :confused:

If you watch the video, you get to see her sign the agreement that the protocol was fair and agreed to by both sides. She agreed it was a fair test both before and after the test, which she failed.

I'll type this slowly: She had a claim and a protocol.

[fromdownunder]

... very scientific :) LOL


TP seems to know about as much about the scientific method as he does about anything else. Here's how it works (and I will keep it VERY simple, and type VERY slowly just for TP):

Make a testable hypothesis after you have observed or studied certain events.

Test it.

If it fails, throw the hypothesis out the window, or modify it. If it succeeds at that point test it some more. Then it becomes a theory, (with all the bells and whistles that can come with that over time) and subject to future modification/falsification.

Get out of your magicks and read a decent book occasionally.

Norm

[often mrunderstood]

It seems everyone is tapping their foot in unison. Randi must be proud :)

:) :) Haha, we're not laughing WITH you... :) ;)

:) :)

[OnlyTellsTruths]

While Jim clearly just makes things up, I get the feeling professor here actually thinks Mrs. Hunter really passed because Jeff had to clamp shut his liquid waste hose.

[eirik]

At first none of the Skeptics would answer me. Then I read the JREF site and found out that in 13 years NO ONE had ever been allowed to take the test. The preliminary test is
NOT mandatory and the JREF can let anyone take the test straight up the very first time.
For some strange reason it is up to them alone to decide who gets the free pass. No one has ever been allowed to. Makes you wonder why they say that then doesn't it?

When Randi talks about it in public he rarely mentions that you must take the test
twice.

As to the topic: At least one has taken the final test.

Am I not correct, or was not Jacque Benveniste, the homeopathy-guy in France allowed to skip the preliminary test? With Benvenistes protocol and an independent personel , the test went through. The result was off course a failure. My source here is a youtube clip from dragoncon, where randi challenges graham watkins(edited: also offered to skip the preliminary test). I'm not allowed to post the link. I've also read about this at some time, but can't remeber the source for this.

That means that people has been able to go through with the second test, even though no-one has ever passed the preliminary.


As to why some people are allowed to skip the preliminary: it's the jref's challenge, and they can do with it what they see fit. That's not "some strange reason".

Discriminating, as in treating people differently is not in itself unfair.

As a lawyer I don't see a problem with that, as long as they don't change the stated rules in their favor and in the disfavor of a spesific applicant in the middle of a negoriations process. That would possibly be a breach of contract, off course depending on the contract.

This I can not see happening here or in the past. I see only the professor wanting to ignore the rules stated.

[Seismosaurus]

Was the million dollars up for grabs in this test (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article1727245.ece)? The promos certainly seemed to say so.

[Cuddles]

Was the million dollars up for grabs in this test (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article1727245.ece)? The promos certainly seemed to say so.

I think it was.

There is a problem with the phrasing of the question in the OP that I think makes it a little ambiguous. There is an important difference between asking if anyone has ever passed the preliminary test and asking if anyone has ever taken the final test. The title asks how many challenges have ever made it to the second round. This implies that there was a first round and, as we know, no-one has ever passed a first round. However, as shown here, some people have been allowed to skip the preliminary entirely. This means we are left with two different questions and two different answers:

1) Has anyone ever passed the preliminary test?
A) No.

2) Has anyone ever taken the final test?
A) Yes.

The answer to the OP is either yes or no, depending on which one you mean.

[Thabiguy]

Am I not correct, or was not Jacque Benveniste, the homeopathy-guy in France allowed to skip the preliminary test? With Benvenistes protocol and an independent personel , the test went through. The result was off course a failure.

Benveniste didn't apply for the Million Dollar Challenge. (And although the Challenge did exist in 1988, I'm not sure whether it was worth a million back then already.) Randi was just one of Nature's investigation team, which also included Sir John Maddox and Walter Stewart. All they were supposed to do was produce a report, which they did.

BBC Horizon, however, did take the challenge in their "Homeopathy - The Test" programme. And it was said that they would get a million dollars if successful, implying (but not explicitly confirming) that it was a final test, not preliminary.

[petre]

Thanks Linda, I'm sure you know much more about such things as I might :)

Just wasn't SCIENTIFIC was it :)

She should get a new preliminary test. Actually she should move straight to the second test since the JREF screwed this one up so unfairly. The test proved nothing. Some heavy critical thinking going on here :)

The Million denied by a sneaky CLOTHESPIN :confused:

The applicant did not seem to think the protocol was unfair, in fact she stated that she felt the test was entirely fair and that she would be able to perform under the conditions agreed upon. She could have demanded a neutral third party be the target, but did not.

Within a short period of time she was able to organize her thoughts, put forward a clearly paranormal claim, and be tested. For that she has my respect. A woman that believes God has given her the power to make people pee their pants has earned my respect.

I hope one day to say the same of you. Have you contacted any sound and recording experts yet on how to secure your protocol against all scientifically-known methods of getting voices on a tape? Jim C. has done a fine job of responding to the few example issues Jeff has pointed out with helpful additions that could guard against some forms of trickery, but until they make their way into your claim they remain just helpful suggestions.

[chillzero]

Protocol discussions are in the other thread. :)

[fromdownunder]

Protocol discussions are in the other thread. :)

...by everybody except the "applicant".

Norm

[wmadoss]

I dont know if this was an earlier MDC but James Hydrick was debunked and from what I know didnt go through any preliminary tests.

In this case Randi offered him 10.000 dollars if he could do what he said he could (obviously he couldnt).

And "Professor" come on what is that nick about......maybe time to change it to something more appropriate like maybe The Delusional....


But still a preliminary test is a given (for many reasons) for what the applicants claims they can perform.

[The Professor]

James Randi, in the Spirit of fairness, has offered to let Many people skip the Preliminary test.
A short list can be found in the challenge thread and on youtube.
It proves that Randi CAN and HAS done it!

The US system doesn't LIKE the Double Jeopardy style of thinking. It is reflected in our legal system and the basic way we think about "fairness".

[chran]

James Randi, in the Spirit of fairness, has offered to let Many people skip the Preliminary test.
A short list can be found in the challenge thread and on youtube.
It proves that Randi CAN and HAS done it!

Yes, but he hasn't offered YOU.

Get over it.

[The Professor]

I haven't gotten to speak with him this week yet :)

[Czarcasm]

I haven't gotten to speak with him this week yet :)

That is probably because you aren't negotiating with him-you are negotiating with JREF.

[Pepper]

Looking through the Challenge Applications, it seems hardly any even make it to a preliminary test, and I have yet yo find one that passed that (granted I have not read them all, but I have read a pretty sizable number).

So in the history of the MDC, how many (if any) have ever passed that first test, and made it to the second test?

Randi or the JREF is the sole judge of the preliminary test (at least that was the case last time I checkd), and they have 1 million bucks on the line. So, duh, nobody has ever passed the preliminary test.

[Pixel42]

Randi or the JREF is the sole judge of the preliminary test (at least that was the case last time I checkd)
That has never been true. Test protocols and success criteria are agreed by both JREF and the applicant before the test is run and are designed to ensure an unambiguous result. So no judging is required by anyone, the result is self-evident.

[gdnp]

It seems to me premature to request a waiver of the preliminary test when no protocol has been proposed or accepted. As has been pointed out by others, Randi has agreed to waive the preliminary test for some claims and not for others. If you can come up with a protocol so unambiguous and so immune to possible trickery that the JREF feels they can test it definitively in one shot, they may agree to waive the preliminary. Until someone has a claim and a protocol, asking for a waiver of the preliminary preliminary test is asking the JREF to buy a pig in a poke.

[Pepper]

That has never been true. Test protocols and success criteria are agreed by both JREF and the applicant before the test is run and are designed to ensure an unambiguous result. So no judging is required by anyone, the result is self-evident.

Really? What about this?
http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html
"Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives."

What if I claim I can lift an object 3 feet off the ground with the power of my mind, I do so during the preliminary test, and the JREF associates says, "No, you didn't."?

[Gr8wight]

Really? What about this?
http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html
"Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives."

What if I claim I can lift an object 3 feet off the ground with the power of my mind, I do so during the preliminary test, and the JREF associates says, "No, you didn't."?

The tests are videotaped. If you can provide evidence that you did what you claimed and the JREF still refused to recognise you, you would have the makings of a pretty solid breach of contract lawsuit.

[Czarcasm]

Really? What about this?
http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html
"Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives."

What if I claim I can lift an object 3 feet off the ground with the power of my mind, I do so during the preliminary test, and the JREF associates says, "No, you didn't."?

What if you come up with a real complaint that has something to do with the rules of the MDC, instead of these silly hypotheticals?

[The Professor]

Really? What about this?
http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html
"Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives."

What if I claim I can lift an object 3 feet off the ground with the power of my mind, I do so during the preliminary test, and the JREF associates says, "No, you didn't."?

That is just what they did here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-2bjiMrx0

He went into the bathroom by himself and then said "You'll just have to take my word for it" .....

How Scientific is that?

He could have had a Clothespin :)

What's to stop them from sweeping ANY claim under the carpet in the same way?
:cool::cool:

[Czarcasm]

Ooooooh! And what if they bribe observers to take their side during the MDC?

No, wait-that's what you are openly trying to do, isn't it? Paying people to participate if the tests go your way? I'm curious, though, as how you propose to pay them $25,000 from the $1,000,000 prize for a positive result if there is no monetary reward at all for passing the preliminary test, which is the test you want them to volunteer for.

[steenkh]

James Randi, in the Spirit of fairness, has offered to let Many people skip the Preliminary test.
A short list can be found in the challenge thread and on youtube.
It proves that Randi CAN and HAS done it!
Just too bad that Randi is not making any special case out of you, is it not?

The US system doesn't LIKE the Double Jeopardy style of thinking. It is reflected in our legal system and the basic way we think about "fairness".
What US system? In which way is the legal system involved here?

There is no double jeopardy involved: either you can do what you claim or you cannot. There is no luck involved, or rather, the JREF attempts to eliminate luck as much possible, so all that remains is that you give the paranormal demonstration.

[The Professor]

For the simple minded I will repeat again that the test can only be done once a year as it now stands. The Double Jeopardy claus doesn't work too well since the challenge is reaching an end.
No one has answered the Clothes Pin Question.
Was that really a Scientific Test :) ???????
NO WAY!
LMAO

[Chris H]

Don't push it too far Professor, or I'll be recommending the JREF do a cavity search on you just before YOUR preliminary test. You know, if it's going to be a scientific test and all, they probably should check anywhere there might be some kind of concealed device...

Chris

[Doubt]

That is just what they did here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-2bjiMrx0

He went into the bathroom by himself and then said "You'll just have to take my word for it" .....

How Scientific is that?

He could have had a Clothespin :)

What's to stop them from sweeping ANY claim under the carpet in the same way?
:cool::cool:

Test the viability of the clothespin yourself and get back to us with the results.

Edited to add: Try it on your finger first.

[RoboTimbo]

Test the viability of the clothespin yourself and get back to us with the results.

Edited to add: Try it on your finger first.

Or, don't try it on your finger first and use a mousetrap. Should work as well, if not better.

[Here_to_learn]

For the simple minded I will repeat again that the test can only be done once a year as it now stands. The Double Jeopardy claus doesn't work too well since the challenge is reaching an end.Yes, if you fail at either the preliminary of formal stage, you may retake the test 12 months later. However if you pass the preliminary there is not as far as I know anything that says you have to wait 12 months to take the formal test.

[Pixel42]

However if you pass the preliminary there is not as far as I know anything that says you have to wait 12 months to take the formal test.Only The Professor's own insistence on doing the test at Halloween. His claim as it currently stands specifies 31st October. So if he does the preliminary test on 31st October 2009, the earliest he could do the final test is 31st October 2010, by which time the challenge will have ended. Though I suspect that JREF would be prepared to extend the deadline for a applicant who was already part way through the process and had actually passed the preliminary test.

Incidentally what's all this nonsense about double jeopardy? It's the scientific method, not the legal system, that's relevant here, and repeatability is a fundamental requirement of the scientific method.

[Here_to_learn]

Only The Professor's own insistence on doing the test at Halloween.Agreed, but I didn't dare mention it since it could be considered OT for this thread ;)

[Pepper]

The tests are videotaped. If you can provide evidence that you did what you claimed and the JREF still refused to recognise you, you would have the makings of a pretty solid breach of contract lawsuit.

Videotaped by the JREF? Sue to get what? During the preliminary test, you're not trying out for the million, just a chance to try for the million.

[chillzero]

Videotaped by the JREF?
Yes.
And you are welcome to record it as well, as any claimant should, really.

Sue to get what?

What you were trying for when you said this:


What if I claim I can lift an object 3 feet off the ground with the power of my mind, I do so during the preliminary test, and the JREF associates says, "No, you didn't."?


During the preliminary test, you're not trying out for the million, just a chance to try for the million.
and?
don't you want your chance? Video tape it and prove that they HAVE to put you through.

I don't understand your problem here.

[Pepper]

What if you come up with a real complaint that has something to do with the rules of the MDC, instead of these silly hypotheticals?

This IS a real complaint about the rules of the MDC. The rule that the JREF is the sole judge of the preliminary test, and they have a million dollars on the line.

Why have a preliminary test at all? My guess is so that the JREF has some "wiggle room".

[Pepper]

and?
don't you want your chance? Video tape it and prove that they HAVE to put you through.

I don't understand your problem here.

And...going to court is a big hassle. And if you think justice will always be served... dream on. So, a person might bother if they were suing for the mlillion, but not for a chance at the million. IMHO, that is why there is a priliminary test in the first place.

Do you understand my problem now? If not, I'll try to explain it another way.

[RoboTimbo]

This IS a real complaint about the rules of the MDC. The rule that the JREF is the sole judge of the preliminary test, and they have a million dollars on the line.

Why have a preliminary test at all? My guess is so that the JREF has some "wiggle room".

Then you misunderstand the part about the results of the test being self-evident with no need of interpretation or 'judging'.

Ex.: You claim that with your dowsing rods, you can locate a gold ring in a closed tin. The test is that your dowsing rods have to point to the one tin out of ten that has the gold ring and you have to pick correctly 8 times out of 10.

If you pick 8 out of 10 times correctly, you win. It doesn't take a panel of judges to see the result.

The wiggle room must be in a different building.

But I'm sure you'll get plenty of posts about this.

As for there being a preliminary test, there is such a thing as random chance. You really could pick 8 out of 10 by chance. Thus, there is a final test.

Do you not want to understand?

[Moochie]

That is just what they did here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-2bjiMrx0

He went into the bathroom by himself and then said "You'll just have to take my word for it" .....

How Scientific is that?

He could have had a Clothespin :)

What's to stop them from sweeping ANY claim under the carpet in the same way?
:cool::cool:

Because the "carpet" is transparent.


M.

[Pepper]

Then you misunderstand the part about the results of the test being self-evident with no need of interpretation or 'judging'.

Ex.: You claim that with your dowsing rods, you can locate a gold ring in a closed tin. The test is that your dowsing rods have to point to the one tin out of ten that has the gold ring and you have to pick correctly 8 times out of 10.

If you pick 8 out of 10 times correctly, you win. It doesn't take a panel of judges to see the result.

The wiggle room must be in a different building.

But I'm sure you'll get plenty of posts about this.

As for there being a preliminary test, there is such a thing as random chance. You really could pick 8 out of 10 by chance. Thus, there is a final test.

Do you not want to understand?

There is always judging involved.

What if you DO pick 8 out 10 times correctly, and the JREF says you DIDN'T? Do you get to go onto the real test, or not? No, you don't.

And that "random chance" excuse is laughable. You culd also pick 8 out of 10 by chance in the real test.

[Azrael 5]

For the simple minded I will repeat again that the test can only be done once a year as it now stands.

Not true.You performed a test last week,you have clearly stated this in a post somewhere.:)

[RoboTimbo]

There is always judging involved.

What if you DO pick 8 out 10 times correctly, and the JREF says you DIDN'T? Do you get to go onto the real test, or not? No, you don't.

And that "random chance" excuse is laughable. You culd also pick 8 out of 10 by chance in the real test.

Ok, you don't want to understand.

How would JREF be able to say that you didn't pick 8 out of 10 correctly? You have a legally binding contract with them. In fact, it usually isn't JREF that monitors the preliminary test. They do work with statisticians on the protocol when the claimed paranormal phenomenon is something that could happen by chance, like this example.

I'm not a statistician so I can't answer for them but I've seen terms such as 1000 to 1 and 1,000,000 to 1. In general, the protocol for the preliminary test will work out to be close to 1000 to 1 against it happening by random chance. Using the same protocol for a final test (with the same 1000 to 1 chance) gives you a final chance of it happening by random of 1,000,000 to 1. Beat that and you get to deposit $1,000,000.

[RoboTimbo]

For the simple minded I will repeat again that the test can only be done once a year as it now stands. The Double Jeopardy claus doesn't work too well since the challenge is reaching an end.
No one has answered the Clothes Pin Question.
Was that really a Scientific Test :) ???????
NO WAY!
LMAO

borrowed from the protocol discussion thread:

<snip>
"I, David Koenig, will cause voices to appear on previously blank magnetic recording tapes by paranormal means."
<snip>

I don't understand how your test can only be done once a year, based on your claim. Your claim makes no mention of any particular date or time. Not to make this a protocol discussion, but I believe that you've mentioned elsewhere that you have performed this paranormal feat during the daytime hours on no particular day of the year.

To bring this full circle so that it's back on topic, there isn't anything keeping you from a final test should your preliminary test prove successful.

[Pepper]

Ok, you don't want to understand.

How would JREF be able to say that you didn't pick 8 out of 10 correctly? You have a legally binding contract with them. In fact, it usually isn't JREF that monitors the preliminary test. They do work with statisticians on the protocol when the claimed paranormal phenomenon is something that could happen by chance, like this example.

I'm not a statistician so I can't answer for them but I've seen terms such as 1000 to 1 and 1,000,000 to 1. In general, the protocol for the preliminary test will work out to be close to 1000 to 1 against it happening by random chance. Using the same protocol for a final test (with the same 1000 to 1 chance) gives you a final chance of it happening by random of 1,000,000 to 1. Beat that and you get to deposit $1,000,000.


So, if the JREF lied and said you didn't pick 8 out of 10 correctly when you did, it would be the first time anybody has broken a legally binding contract?

In the FAQ, it says the JREF conducts the priliminary test. Is that wrong?

Like I said, the "random chance" excuse is laughable. If nobody has passed the priliminary test in all these years by random chance, why worry about it? And what about claims of abilitites in which chance would not be an issue? Why not skip the preliminary test in those cases?

[RoboTimbo]

So, if the JREF lied and said you didn't pick 8 out of 10 correctly when you did, it would be the first time anybody has broken a legally binding contract?

In the FAQ, it says the JREF conducts the priliminary test. Is that wrong?

Like I said, the "random chance" excuse is laughable. If nobody has passed the priliminary test in all these years by random chance, why worry about it? And what about claims of abilitites in which chance would not be an issue? Why not skip the preliminary test in those cases?

Accusing JREF of dishonesty won't get you much traction here. I'll point you to the $1M challenge (http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html) site where you can read through the applications at your leisure.

Your failure to understand random chance isn't anyone else's problem.

Do you have some kind of actual claim? Mad that you don't have a paranormal ability?

[chillzero]

And...going to court is a big hassle. And if you think justice will always be served... dream on. So, a person might bother if they were suing for the mlillion, but not for a chance at the million. IMHO, that is why there is a priliminary test in the first place.

Do you understand my problem now? If not, I'll try to explain it another way.

I still don't fully understand your problem.

If you said you can make something levitate 3 m, and you did, and it was videotaped, I don't understand why this would even head for the courts. If the JREF were stupid enough to deny what actually happened - which I doubt they would... you just need to show the tape to the media.

You are making up a ridiculous scenario, and claiming it as evidence of some sort of non-existant problem.

[Pepper]

Accusing JREF of dishonesty won't get you much traction here. I'll point you to the $1M challenge (http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html) site where you can read through the applications at your leisure.

Your failure to understand random chance isn't anyone else's problem.

Do you have some kind of actual claim? Mad that you don't have a paranormal ability?

I know Randi is dishonest, I've had dealings with him.

Oh, I understand random chance. Why not just make the odds against random chance 10^6 to 1 in a one and only test for the million? The only reason I can think of is the JREF wants "wiggle room".

You don't have a real agument, so you try to make me the issue, and make lame personal attacks. Let me remind you, the topic is the MDC, not my abilites nor lack of same, nor my feelings about having or not having them.

[William Smith]

Accusing JREF of dishonesty won't get you much traction here. I'll point you to the $1M challenge (http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html) site where you can read through the applications at your leisure.

Your failure to understand random chance isn't anyone else's problem.

Do you have some kind of actual claim? Mad that you don't have a paranormal ability?


Pepper has a history here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1537349#post1537349) One should read the thread in its entirety.

Pepper, you have been gone for a while. Can we assume you have not changed your stance on producing quantifiable evidence for your claims?

[Pepper]

I still don't fully understand your problem.

If you said you can make something levitate 3 m, and you did, and it was videotaped, I don't understand why this would even head for the courts. If the JREF were stupid enough to deny what actually happened - which I doubt they would... you just need to show the tape to the media.

You are making up a ridiculous scenario, and claiming it as evidence of some sort of non-existant problem.

They might deny what happened because they have nothing to lose by doing so, and they have a million bucks on the line. People have lied for less.

You could show the tape to the media, that doesn't mean they will take you seriously, and the JREF could claim it's faked.

Why have a preliminary test at all? I can only think of one reason.

[Pepper]

Pepper has a history here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1537349#post1537349) One should read the thread in its entirety.

Pepper, you have been gone for a while. Can we assume you have not changed your stance on producing quantifiable evidence for your claims?

Another attempt to make me the issue. The issue is the MDC, not me.

[William Smith]

They might deny what happened because they have nothing to lose by doing so, and they have a million bucks on the line. People have lied for less.

You could show the tape to the media, that doesn't mean they will take you seriously, and the JREF could claim it's faked.

Why have a preliminary test at all? I can only think of one reason.

To provide evidence the applicant can do what s/he claims to be able to do?

Another attempt to make me the issue. The issue is the MDC, not me.

The issue is evidence. Proper, derived-from-a-controlled-test evidence. You weren't able to produce said evidence with your EFT a while ago. And you appear unchanged on said matters, hence I posted the link for those who want to save their time and avoid what likely seems to become an unproductive discussion.

[RoboTimbo]

Pepper has a history here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1537349#post1537349) One should read the thread in its entirety.

Pepper, you have been gone for a while. Can we assume you have not changed your stance on producing quantifiable evidence for your claims?

Thank you, Gzuz. Hm, haven't said THAT for a while. Anyway, very enlightening. Now I understand the ulterior motive in his posts. Randi corresponded with him WAY more than I will!

[Azrael 5]

They might deny what happened because they have nothing to lose by doing so, and they have a million bucks on the line. People have lied for less.

You could show the tape to the media, that doesn't mean they will take you seriously, and the JREF could claim it's faked.

Why have a preliminary test at all? I can only think of one reason.

i await inevitable split thread form here,until then..JREF doesnt really have anything to lose.Someone wins the million,Randi and JREF get oodles of publicity,books,films documentaries etc etc.They would easily recoup.

[Profwag]

For the simple minded I will repeat again that the test can only be done once a year as it now stands.

Slim,
On post 424 of the "Applied..." thread, you said "I have had GREAT success making contact at the Devil's Chair. I have chosen 10/31 because many deceased personalities, the most famous being Houdini himself, have Requesed that day. It is also historically claimed to be the perfect day to make contact."
Based on your own statement, the test CAN be done at other times. You are just making excuses for it to be done that day. Additionally, it is a requirement that others have witnessed your claim prior to making an application. Was this witnessed last year on Oct 31? I think not. It appears you have not spoken the truth...again...

[chillzero]

Please get this thread back on topic, and do not circumvent the moderation on The Professor's claim thread by discussing his claim here. Otherwise the thread may be put on moderated status.

[Pepper]

To provide evidence the applicant can do what s/he claims to be able to do?



The issue is evidence. Proper, derived-from-a-controlled-test evidence. You weren't able to produce said evidence with your EFT a while ago. And you appear unchanged on said matters, hence I posted the link for those who want to save their time and avoid what likely seems to become an unproductive discussion.

If they did show they could do what they claimed they could do, why should they have to go through another test?

And again, I am not the issue, I've never even applied for the MDC. If you want to make me the issue, fine. Start a thread about me in an appropriate forum, let me know, and I'll join in.

[Pixel42]

If they did show they could do what they claimed they could do, why should they have to go through another test?
To rule out the possibility that it was a fluke result.

I say again, repeatability is fundamental to the scientific method. No scientist would dream of publishing a result of a single experiment, (s)he would always repeat it first to confirm the result. And as soon as they do publish, the first thing other scientists do is rush to replicate that result themselves, in order to rule out systematic error by the first team.

There is nothing at all remarkable or unusual about the JREF requirement for repeatability.

[William Smith]

If they did show they could do what they claimed they could do, why should they have to go through another test?
...

The preliminary test for the MDC is often referred to as a "controlled" test. It is impossible for the JREF to ensure the applicant went through a controlled test before - save for affidavits by academics.

The repeatability of a claim - see Pixel42's last post - should not hinder an applicant with a veritable ability.

Finally, it is the JREF's Challenge. They pay USD1,000,000 upon success. Requiring two tests does not seem unreasonable to me.

[Thabiguy]

What if you DO pick 8 out 10 times correctly, and the JREF says you DIDN'T?

The real question here is: Did it actually happen? Has JREF ever lied about the outcome of the experiment? Can you provide any evidence of that?

Of course you can't. Because it never happened, in none of the dozens of tests that were carried out. What you're speculating about is a baseless fantasy without any actual relevance to the reality of MDC whatsoever.

The fact is, if JREF ever lies about the outcome of an experiment, then there will be evidence that you will be able to provide. This is because the results of the tests are self-evident. That is what self-evidence means: it means that if someone lies about the outcome, people can look at the footage and it will be evident who's lying about the outcome.

[Gr8wight]

This IS a real complaint about the rules of the MDC. The rule that the JREF is the sole judge of the preliminary test, and they have a million dollars on the line.

Why have a preliminary test at all? My guess is so that the JREF has some "wiggle room".

Your reading comprehension is poor. The JREF is not the sole judge. The challenge rules state very clearly that any test that requires judging in any form will not be accepted. There are no judges. The results of any test must be self evident. For example, in your earlier post you described a test in which a hypothetical applicant claimed to be able to levitate three feet above the ground. A test would include a yard stick. If the applicant was able to levitate to only 35½ inches above the ground, he would fail the test. This is a very important consideration. Applicants should be sure they can really do exactly what they claim.

However, to use your example once more, if the applicant could present a video tape that conclusively showed him levitating 36½ inches above the ground, how do you think the JREF would be able to suppress or invalidate that?

Remember, the applicant for the MDC enters into a legally binding contract with the JREF. Are you seriously trying to make us believe that you would hesitate to enter into legal proceedings if you stood to make a cool million?

I'm skeptical.

[Azrael 5]

If he levitated 35½ inches that would be a fail?! Really? Technically maybe.But in such an instance I would have thought it proof enough. ;)

[The Professor]

Pepper is 100% correct.
What's to stop the JREF from saying ..."You'll just have to take my word for it" and then dismiss the prelim as bogus and never risk the Million Dollars?

Nothing!

So what kind of fair test is that?

It isn't!

Where's the fairness in that?

NOWHERE..... And that is Peppers point!

[Gr8wight]

If he levitated 35½ inches that would be a fail?! Really? Technically maybe.But in such an instance I would have thought it proof enough. ;)

According to the challenge rules - and we forum regulars hammer on this point regularly - in order to win the one million dollars, a claimant need only do exactly what he claims to be able to do. A person who can levitate approximately three feet above the ground, and agrees to a protocol requiring him to levitate 36 inches above the ground is stupid. A little thought would show that all anyone who could really levitate three feet high would have to do is claim to be able to levitate three inches above the ground to win the challenge.

If a claimant displayed the ability to levitate even three inches above the ground without the use of trickery, however, the position of the JREF would be irrelevent, as that person would be displaying irrefutable proof that our current understanding of physics is remarkaby wrong.

So, really, Pepper's analogy is silly.

[Pepper]

Pepper is 100% correct.
What's to stop the JREF from saying ..."You'll just have to take my word for it" and then dismiss the prelim as bogus and never risk the Million Dollars?

Nothing!

So what kind of fair test is that?

It isn't!

Where's the fairness in that?

NOWHERE..... And that is Peppers point!

Exactly!

[Pope130]

Pepper is 100% correct.
What's to stop the JREF from saying ..."You'll just have to take my word for it" and then dismiss the prelim as bogus and never risk the Million Dollars?

Nothing!

So what kind of fair test is that?

It isn't!

Where's the fairness in that?

NOWHERE..... And that is Peppers point!

This is why you are allowed to have your own witness and videographer present. If someone lies you can prove it.

So far no challenger has even alledged dishonesty in the results of the test.

[drkitten]

Pepper is 100% correct.
What's to stop the JREF from saying ..."You'll just have to take my word for it" and then dismiss the prelim as bogus and never risk the Million Dollars?


The fact that you and the JREF have entered into a binding contract, and the protocol you negotiated yielded a clear and self-evident result that you had passed.

You would simply point this out to the judge and he would award you the million, plus costs and attorney's fees.

This is why the JREF wouldn't do it. They couldn't get away with it.

[steenkh]

Pepper is 100% correct.
What's to stop the JREF from saying ..."You'll just have to take my word for it" and then dismiss the prelim as bogus and never risk the Million Dollars?

Nothing!
What is to stop you from claiming a success where there was none? The two parties have equal opportunity to lie here.

So what kind of fair test is that?
Since the result is self-evident, it should be quite easy to take to the courts without risking contradicting expert testimony. I doubt if you can find a fairer test.

[Azrael 5]

Wow The Professor has found someone to agree with him at last.

[William Smith]

Pepper is 100% correct.
What's to stop the JREF from saying ..."You'll just have to take my word for it" and then dismiss the prelim as bogus and never risk the Million Dollars?

Nothing!

So what kind of fair test is that?

It isn't!

Where's the fairness in that?

NOWHERE..... And that is Peppers point!

Do you have evidence to back up your allegation? Nothing?

Has the JREF done this before? No?



Any testees were allowed to bring observers. The testees were asked before and after the test if they were satisfied with the conditions.

I have yet to see testimony from a applicant who actually proceeded to a test who said the tests were rigged, the protocol wasn't adhered to, or anything else that would cast a doubt on the integrity of the procedure.

The Carina Landin test serves as an exception - and the JREF immediately agreed to a retest.



So where is the fairness in your baseless accusations? Nowhere. And that is my point.



You do remember that anyone can read what you wrote, The Professor, do you not?

[chillzero]

It was probably a stroke of genius on Randi's part to ensure that all tests are completed with only himself and the claimant in attendance... in a sealed, soundproof and blacked out room.... with no recording equipment and no witnesses.





...oh ...... wait....

[learner]

Don't push it too far Professor, or I'll be recommending the JREF do a cavity search on you just before YOUR preliminary test. You know, if it's going to be a scientific test and all, they probably should check anywhere there might be some kind of concealed device...

Chris

His head? :)

[chillzero]

I've moved some posts to the correct thread. Do not circumvent the moderation on the challenge thread, or this thread (yet another) will also be put on moderated status.

[petre]

And...going to court is a big hassle. And if you think justice will always be served... dream on. So, a person might bother if they were suing for the mlillion, but not for a chance at the million. IMHO, that is why there is a priliminary test in the first place.

Do you understand my problem now? If not, I'll try to explain it another way.

You seem to have described it, but the implications of someone having such an issue would appear rather startling. If it is your belief that the justice system is not sufficient support to enforce a binding contract such that one would not make the effort of such hassle for $1 million, one could only conclude that such beliefs would lead you to never enter into any binding contract of any kind, ever.

Would this be an accurate inferrence, that you would never enter into any kind of binding contract because you have no faith they can be enforced? If there are exceptions, perhaps you could describe how they differ greatly from the contract offered by the JREF.

[The Professor]

You seem to have described it, but the implications of someone having such an issue would appear rather startling. If it is your belief that the justice system is not sufficient support to enforce a binding contract such that one would not make the effort of such hassle for $1 million, one could only conclude that such beliefs would lead you to never enter into any binding contract of any kind, ever.

Would this be an accurate inferrence, that you would never enter into any kind of binding contract because you have no faith they can be enforced? If there are exceptions, perhaps you could describe how they differ greatly from the contract offered by the JREF.

The agreement "Itself" makes it difficult to sue the JREF ... In fact it says that you CAN'T!
So it is what it is!
:cool::cool:

[Pogo]

The agreement "Itself" makes it difficult to sue the JREF ... In fact it says that you CAN'T!
So it is what it is!
:cool::cool:


Then if you want the million, you'll have to display paranormal powers. Too bad.

[Rodibidably]

The agreement "Itself" makes it difficult to sue the JREF ... In fact it says that you CAN'T!
So it is what it is!
:cool::cool:
If you were able to "beat" the challenge, and prove your ability (paranormal or otherwise) and the JREF refused to pay, they would be in violation of breach of contract. By them breaking the contract (not paying when you've "won") you'd be allowed to sue for fufillment of the contract...

[Mongrel]

I just love how people can (perhaps deliberately) only read the first sentence and start decrying "OMG!! Randis challenge is a fake!!"

The rule (#8) in full is;
When entering into this challenge, as far as this may be done by established legal statutes, the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, and/or against any persons peripherally involved, and/or against the James Randi Educational Foundation. This applies to injury, and/or accident, and/or any other damage of a physical and/or emotional nature, and/or financial and/or professional loss, and/or damage of any kind. However, this rule in no way affects the awarding of the prize, once it is properly won in accord with the protocol.

My bold.

[petre]

The agreement "Itself" makes it difficult to sue the JREF ... In fact it says that you CAN'T!
So it is what it is!
:cool::cool:

Please tell me your intention was to be deliberately obtuse to humorous effect. I refuse to believe your reading comprehension would be so poor as to ignore the fact that rule 8 specifically notes the kind of legal action required to pursue fulfillment of the contract is not itself restricted by the contract. This provision exists in contract law already, that a contract cannot restrict either party's right to seek legal action to enforce the terms of the contract (I've seen attempts to restrict dispute resolution to arbitration, but I've never seen such a clause hold up in court if directly challenged).

So jokes asside, do you see any fault of logic in my conclusion that if Pepper's position is indeed what it appears to be, one would expect that he would never enter into any contracts? I would ask if you also share such a view, but you have demonstrated already that you are willing to enter into contractual agreements.

[devnull]

I dont understand the problem here - if you have a legitimate paranormal ability, but you dont like the rules of the MDC or you think Randi is going to lie or whatever, simply do not take the test!

Noone is forcing you to do anything. If you feel uncomfortable with the conditions of the MDC, dont do it. The fact is, if you have a legitimate paranormal ability that is testable and repeatable, then $1M should be chump change for you once the word is out.

[jenski]

Pepper is 100% correct.
What's to stop the JREF from saying ..."You'll just have to take my word for it" and then dismiss the prelim as bogus and never risk the Million Dollars?

Nothing!

So what kind of fair test is that?

It isn't!

Where's the fairness in that?

NOWHERE..... And that is Peppers point!

Here's your straw. Grasp! Grasp! Grasp!

[DavidS]

[0] Pepper is 100% correct.

[1] What's to stop the JREF from saying ..."You'll just have to take my word for it"

[2] and then dismiss the prelim as bogus and never risk the Million Dollars?

[3] Nothing!

[4] So what kind of fair test is that?

[5] It isn't!

[6] Where's the fairness in that?

[7] NOWHERE.....

[8] And that is Peppers point!

[#] enumerations mine for reference

[0] I assert confidently, but offer no proof, that your quantification is incorrect.
[1] A simple gag might make it more difficult, but a good protocol including much more self-evident evaluation criteria would render it harmless.
[2] The money would still be at risk in the presence of a good MDC agreement requiring protocol with better criteria and documentation.
[3] Sounds like a protocol or testing agreement of the other, not-so-good kind. See [1,2] above.
[4] The agreed-to-be-fair kind.
[5] Functionally irrelevant once agreed otherwise.
[6] In agreement to a protocol deemed fair. Anybody hoping to win the MDC should probably put some thought into the protocol and agreement. I'm pretty sure JREF will.
[7] Unambiguously recording the protocol, agreement, and proceedings might help here.
[8] At last, another application for "Whose Line Is It Anyway" scoring.

[gnome]

@The Professor, Pepper:

Can you name a single example where you believe the JREF did not handle the preliminary test fairly?

[Whiplash]

To suggest that JREF and the MDC are setup to make sure people fail makes little to no sense. That is unless you believe it's part of some grander conspiracy to hold down the truth about paranormal abilities.

The way some people go on about fairness and how many tests should be allowed, etc, make me feel as if they feel that the MDC is actually some program that is the collective work of all humankind to prove or disprove the existence of the paranormal, and that everyone has a right to weigh in on in terms of rules and protocols; but the JREF just happened to have been arbitrarily chosen to be in charge of the whole thing. And it's not fair!

It's JREF's money. It's their challenge and their rules. If you don't like it, then tough. If you feel there are better ways to prove the existence of the paranormal, or paranormal abilities, then knock yourself out and present your case to the world publically and scientifically, and let them decide on the validity of your claims. But if you want to challenge for JREF's million dollars, then you will follow their rules.

This isn't something that is owed to you and the JREF just happens to be the big bullies standing in your way. It's a priavtely run challenge to those who claim to have paranormal abilities. If you think it's unfair, feel free to make your case publically, or do it better yourself, and let the world decide for itself who is right and who is wrong. But don't act like you can challenge for their million dollars and also make the rules up at the same time.

[RoboTimbo]

To suggest that JREF and the MDC are setup to make sure people fail makes little to no sense. That is unless you believe it's part of some grander conspiracy to hold down the truth about paranormal abilities.

The way some people go on about fairness and how many tests should be allowed, etc, make me feel as if they feel that the MDC is actually some program that is the collective work of all humankind to prove or disprove the existence of the paranormal, and that everyone has a right to weigh in on in terms of rules and protocols; but the JREF just happened to have been arbitrarily chosen to be in charge of the whole thing. And it's not fair!

It's JREF's money. It's their challenge and their rules. If you don't like it, then tough. If you feel there are better ways to prove the existence of the paranormal, or paranormal abilities, then knock yourself out and present your case to the world publically and scientifically, and let them decide on the validity of your claims. But if you want to challenge for JREF's million dollars, then you will follow their rules.

This isn't something that is owed to you and the JREF just happens to be the big bullies standing in your way. It's a priavtely run challenge to those who claim to have paranormal abilities. If you think it's unfair, feel free to make your case publically, or do it better yourself, and let the world decide for itself who is right and who is wrong. But don't act like you can challenge for their million dollars and also make the rules up at the same time.


I wonder if the mods would consider moving all of The Professor's :) posts referring to the validity of the MDC to the CT forum.

[MattC]

The agreement "Itself" makes it difficult to sue the JREF ... In fact it says that you CAN'T!
So it is what it is!
:cool::cool:

Yes, but what it is often changes when a bit more knowledge is gleaned.

For example, why not ask your lawyer for a complete explanation of what rule #8 entails if it's this problematic to you?

~ Matt

(ps: :cool::cool:)

[Gravy]

The agreement "Itself" makes it difficult to sue the JREF ... In fact it says that you CAN'T!
So it is what it is!
:cool::cool:
Wrong again, to absolutely no one's surprise but your own.

8. When entering into this challenge, as far as this may be done by established legal statutes, the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, and/or against any persons peripherally involved, and/or against the James Randi Educational Foundation. This applies to injury, and/or accident, and/or any other damage of a physical and/or emotional nature, and/or financial and/or professional loss, and/or damage of any kind. However, this rule in no way affects the awarding of the prize, once it is properly won in accord with the protocol.
http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-application.html

[The Professor]

@The Professor, Pepper:

Can you name a single example where you believe the JREF did not handle the preliminary test fairly?

Shure can!!!!

One lady said she could make Jeff Wagg PEE HIS PANTS!!!

He put on a depends and said he proved her wrong. (Maybe he put a clamp on his manhood while in the bathroom alone... No one know exactly WHAT he did)

There was no Scientific evidence to show that he did not use deceptive methods to deny her claim ...

He said ... "You'll just have to take my word for it." .... pretty Scientifically Provable ...RIGHT :)

[William Smith]

Shure can!!!!

One lady said she could make Jeff Wagg PEE HIS PANTS!!!

He put on a depends and said he proved her wrong. (Maybe he put a clamp on his manhood while in the bathroom alone... No one know exactly WHAT he did)

There was no Scientific evidence to show that he did not use deceptive methods to deny her claim ...

He said ... "You'll just have to take my word for it." .... pretty Scientifically Provable ...RIGHT :)

I am sure you can "Scientifically Prove" your claim that Jeff Wagg put on depends or "put a clamp on his manhood", right?

We're listening.

[William Smith]

Logic according to The Professor:

Shure can!!!!

One lady said she could make Jeff Wagg PEE HIS PANTS!!!

He put on a depends and said he proved her wrong. (Maybe he put a clamp on his manhood while in the bathroom alone... No one know exactly WHAT he did)

There was no Scientific evidence to show that he did not use deceptive methods to deny her claim ...

He said ... "You'll just have to take my word for it." .... pretty Scientifically Provable ...RIGHT :)

[The Professor]

To suggest that JREF and the MDC are setup to make sure people fail makes little to no sense. That is unless you believe it's part of some grander conspiracy to hold down the truth about paranormal abilities.

The way some people go on about fairness and how many tests should be allowed, etc, make me feel as if they feel that the MDC is actually some program that is the collective work of all humankind to prove or disprove the existence of the paranormal, and that everyone has a right to weigh in on in terms of rules and protocols; but the JREF just happened to have been arbitrarily chosen to be in charge of the whole thing. And it's not fair!

It's JREF's money. It's their challenge and their rules. If you don't like it, then tough. If you feel there are better ways to prove the existence of the paranormal, or paranormal abilities, then knock yourself out and present your case to the world publically and scientifically, and let them decide on the validity of your claims. But if you want to challenge for JREF's million dollars, then you will follow their rules.

This isn't something that is owed to you and the JREF just happens to be the big bullies standing in your way. It's a priavtely run challenge to those who claim to have paranormal abilities. If you think it's unfair, feel free to make your case publically, or do it better yourself, and let the world decide for itself who is right and who is wrong. But don't act like you can challenge for their million dollars and also make the rules up at the same time.

Wake up!

The JREF makes the bulk of their income BECAUSE of the JREF MDC. They are now looking into other income because the MDC is coming to an end ... hence the internet advertisers.

The JREF has enjoyed it's Not For Profit status for quite some time. That is at the expense of all American Citizens.

Their Challenge must be fair or they are a SHAM as many are now openly saying. They have stolen millions in tax free shelters if this is true.

If you were truly Critical Thinkers, you would wonder why others are seeing a problem here.

Why don't they take this challenge?

http://jimclass.com/

[The Professor]

I am sure you can "Scientifically Prove" your claim that Jeff Wagg put on depends or "put a clamp on his manhood", right?

We're listening.

As a SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT it's up to the JREF MDC to show that he DIDN'T deceive us!

Did they do that ... NOOOOOOOOO

They are worse than those Project Alpha dudes :)

It's come full circle! :)

[autumn1971]

TP,
You seem to be something south of obtuse.
The challenge protocol you refer to ad nauseum was agreed to by all parties as fair.
The woman making the claim never mentioned any unfairness in procedure.

If one wishes to make a claim, then they will have the power to enforce whatever controls they want to ensure a fair trial, as will the reps of the JREF.

BOTH PARTIES AGREE TO THE TERMS.

I hate to shout, but you have appeared deaf regarding the explanations of others.

The fact that more than one demonstration may be required is simply a part of the contract.
The fact that only two tests administered under the rules of the JREF are required, i.e., THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF TRIALS THAT HAVE TO BE PASSED IS ONLY TWO, IN ORDER TO WIN ONE MILLION DOLLARS, seems to anyone with any sort of ability to be ludicrously lax.
I can say the alphabet in American English.
Twice.
Under strict controls to make sure that it is me reciting the alphabet.

If it's for a million bucks, I won't even whine like a little baby if the rules say that I have to do it three times.
I will agree to a level of exactness (not 100%, but something like 90%, as I will make nervous mistakes and stutterings) which proves my ability to all concerned, and which has no subjective judgement involved.

If I fail, I will go home and practice reciting the alphabet.

Oh, I will also not open a thread presuming that I will never even be allowed to recite the alphabet before I have attempted to negotiate doing so.

And again, I won't whine like a five-year-old when my request to post-judge my results myself in order to win the prize are refused.

[steenkh]

As a SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT it's up to the JREF MDC to show that he DIDN'T deceive us!
But the challenge is not a scientific experiment. If Jeff had indeed wet his pants, a real scientific experiment might have followed. The protocol was agreed to as fair by both parties. and that is all that is important here.

If Ms. Hunter had objections, she could have demanded a more rigorous test, but she did not.

[RoboTimbo]

I can positively state that nobody made it to a second round unless they had a protocol for a first round.

[petre]

As a SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT it's up to the JREF MDC to show that he DIDN'T deceive us!

Did they do that ... NOOOOOOOOO

They are worse than those Project Alpha dudes :)

It's come full circle! :)

This really does seem to be a bit of confusion for a lot of people when they encounter the challenge. None of the tests are scientific experiments, nor intended to be. If you're just now getting this information maybe we don't say it often enough.

[William Smith]

As a SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT it's up to the JREF MDC to show that he DIDN'T deceive us!

Did they do that ... NOOOOOOOOO

They are worse than those Project Alpha dudes :)

It's come full circle! :)

If you cannot provide evidence that Jeff Wagg cheated on the Rosemary Hunter Preliminary Test by using a diaper or a clamp, I would say you owe him an apology.

[RoboTimbo]

If you cannot provide evidence that Jeff Wagg cheated on the Rosemary Hunter Preliminary Test by using a diaper or a clamp, I would say you owe him an apology.

<retracted>



ETA: As a favor to already bombarded Mods, please don't.

[chillzero]

Please don't.

[Jackalgirl]

Rosemary Hunter's Challenge was not a scientific experiment.

As has been explained to you ad nauseum, the MDC is not intended to be a scientific test or proof. It is a demonstration that shares a lot of commonalities with scientific experiments, in that the experimenter attempting to demonstrate that explanation x is the explanation controls for explanations a, b, c, etc.

It is up to the Challenger and JREF to mutually agree as to what constitutes a successful demonstration (usually by controlling for mundane explanations, leaving the paranormal effect or ability as the only logical possible explanation), and what constitutes a failure, in a self-evident fashion. Ms. Hunter and the JREF came up with a protocol and both agreed to it. She was not able to perform as she predicted per the stipulations of the protocol. And that is that. If she wishes to reapply with different protocol requirements, I am sure that the JREF will welcome her.

After all, she actually submitted a workable protocol and was up-front and sincere with the JREF in wanting to test her claim in a controlled fashion (as opposed to someone wanting to put on a staged show). This excellent class of people are extremely rare (see also Achau Nguyen, another class act) and, in fact, usually constitute the small number of people who make it to the first round.

[The Professor]

Rosemary Hunter's Challenge was not a scientific experiment.

As has been explained to you ad nauseum, the MDC is not intended to be a scientific test or proof. It is a demonstration that shares a lot of commonalities with scientific experiments, in that the experimenter attempting to demonstrate that explanation x is the explanation controls for explanations a, b, c, etc.

It is up to the Challenger and JREF to mutually agree as to what constitutes a successful demonstration (usually by controlling for mundane explanations, leaving the paranormal effect or ability as the only logical possible explanation), and what constitutes a failure, in a self-evident fashion. Ms. Hunter and the JREF came up with a protocol and both agreed to it. She was not able to perform as she predicted per the stipulations of the protocol. And that is that. If she wishes to reapply with different protocol requirements, I am sure that the JREF will welcome her.

After all, she actually submitted a workable protocol and was up-front and sincere with the JREF in wanting to test her claim in a controlled fashion (as opposed to someone wanting to put on a staged show). This excellent class of people are extremely rare (see also Achau Nguyen, another class act) and, in fact, usually constitute the small number of people who make it to the first round.

Get a GRIP!

The JREF MDC definition of PARANORMAL is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE so to say that the MDC IS NOT INTENDED FOR SCIENTIFIC PROOF is totally 180 degrees WRONG! (Read the FAQ)

It is the very basis for the Challenge itself!

Please Explain Yourself! How can this be?

At one time you appeared to be open minded but this is just funny.

[Azrael 5]

Get a GRIP!

The JREF MDC definition of PARANORMAL is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE so to say that the MDC IS NOT INTENDED FOR SCIENTIFIC PROOF is totally 180 degrees WRONG! (Read the FAQ)

It is the very basis for the Challenge itself!

Please Explain Yourself! How can this be?

At one time you appeared to be open minded but this is just funny.

At one time you claimed to have a paranormal ability and a protocol.You are funny.
Cannot someone ban this clown? :cool:

[steenkh]

The JREF MDC definition of PARANORMAL is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE so to say that the MDC IS NOT INTENDED FOR SCIENTIFIC PROOF is totally 180 degrees WRONG! (Read the FAQ)

It is the very basis for the Challenge itself!
No.

The definition of paranormality may be using the term "scientific explanation", but there is nothing that forces the JREF to conduct an actual scientific experiment for the MDC test. No test for the MDC has ever been published in a scientific journal, and it is doubtful if they ever will. Even though real scientific experiments may be conducted with less controls than demanded by the JREF, the JREF is free to decide just what controls will be used for their tests, and if they settle on a lower level, that is it.

The Rosemary Hunter test was definitely not up to par for scientific controls, but quite adequate, as it was accepted by both parties.

[The Professor]

Wasn't the whole problem with the Scientific Community doing shabby research the REASON for the initial MDC? The Alpha HOAX.... to teach the Scientists how Unscientific they were being .... But now the JREF is being just as bad as the Alpa scientists.

But on to the topic at hand.

How many times has James Randi offered to let others skip the preliminary test. I heard him do it at Dragoncon this year (For Warren I believe).
How often does he do this and why?

[Jackalgirl]

Get a GRIP!

The JREF MDC definition of PARANORMAL is NOT SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINABLE so to say that the MDC IS NOT INTENDED FOR SCIENTIFIC PROOF is totally 180 degrees WRONG! (Read the FAQ)

It is the very basis for the Challenge itself!

Please Explain Yourself! How can this be?

At one time you appeared to be open minded but this is just funny.

Once again, if what I have written is not clear, then I cannot explain any differently -- or perhaps simply -- in a way that you apparently will understand. I -- and many others -- have broken it down as basically as we can. You simply do not want to understand.

[steenkh]

Wasn't the whole problem with the Scientific Community doing shabby research the REASON for the initial MDC? The Alpha HOAX.... to teach the Scientists how Unscientific they were being .... But now the JREF is being just as bad as the Alpa scientists.
I believe that the actual initiative to the precursor of the MDC was not scientific research but show business people who claimed they could do paranormal tricks, and James Randi who said he was willing to give them 10000 dollars if they could prove it.

How many times has James Randi offered to let others skip the preliminary test. I heard him do it at Dragoncon this year (For Warren I believe).
How often does he do this and why?
I think it has happened quite often in the past, and less often now. As far as I know, it has always happened in conjunction with some TV show where James Randi would also participate. However, in recent times, even TV shows with the personal participance of mr. Randi do not result in the million dollars being offered straight away. Take for instance the recent TV test of Derek Ogilvie, the baby psychic, who would only be considered to have passed the preliminary test if he succeeded.

[gdnp]

I think it has happened quite often in the past, and less often now. As far as I know, it has always happened in conjunction with some TV show where James Randi would also participate. However, in recent times, even TV shows with the personal participance of mr. Randi do not result in the million dollars being offered straight away. Take for instance the recent TV test of Derek Ogilvie, the baby psychic, who would only be considered to have passed the preliminary test if he succeeded.

I can see the logic in waiving the preliminary test for a person who has already demonstrated their abilities in an uncontrolled fashion and whose claim is of a nature that it is not susceptible to trickery. For example, if someone claimed the ability to predict future events and had demonstrated this in the past, and proposed to demonstrate this ability by predicting what the winning numbers in 5 different state lotteries on a particular day would be, then the challenge involves no machinery, cannot be faked without compromising the integrity of 5 secure organizations, has a self-evident result, and a probability of success through random chance which is nil. I would waive the preliminary test in this instance.

I would not waive the preliminary test for any protocol that is susceptible to trickery: voices showing up on recording devices through an unclear mechanism spouting unknown content, for example. Of course, I would not accept this protocol in the first place, since the results are not self-evident.

This of course is only my opinion. I do not speak for the JREF.

[Moochie]

<snip>


This of course is only my opinion. I do not speak for the JREF.

I agree with all you say. Regarding that last part, TP would do well to absorb this little tidbit of information, and stop asking questions of Mr. Randi in the forum. He's been told often enough that Mr. Randi does not concern himself with the running of the forum and rarely, if ever, looks in.

If TP has genuine questions for Mr. Randi, let him ask Mr. Randi directly, via email and/or telephone. As you say above, none of us speak for Mr. Randi or the JREF.


M.

[steenkh]

This of course is only my opinion. I do not speak for the JREF.
The JREF has always claimed that the preliminary test was demanded in order to prove that it was worth spending the time and effort to go to a formal test; it has never been stated that it was in order to avoid trickery or to raise the odds.

It has quite simply been up to James Randi to decide if a preliminary test would be necessary or not, but over time so much effort has been put into the preliminary test that it would seem more and more unfair to subject some applicants to a preliminary test, and not others, that it is rarely seen that the preliminary test is waivered. I believe that now that James Randi is gradually retiring, the preliminary test will always be demanded.

[The Professor]

That seems inconsistent with what Randi said at DragonCon. James may be retired but he is still offering the "Direct Line" :)

No one seems to want to answer my question. How many times has Randi offered to forego the preliminary test? Once ? Twice? A dozen times? More?

You guys are the experts here. What's the answer?
Thanks
Dave

[Pogo]

I don't know the number, but I know they aren't foregoing it in your case.

Will you be emailing your protocol to Jeff Wagg this week?

[Wowbagger]

The thing at Dragon*Con was a demonstration of how a test for dowsing could take place. It was not an actual test.

Perhaps if the volunteer actually passed the test, then at best, it might count as "The Preliminary Test". He would not have gotten the Million straight away. (Though, I don't think it officially counted as the Preliminary, either. I think it was merely a demonstration, at that point.)

ETA: To clench this point, I will mention that Jeff Wagg actually asked the audience for "problems" they might see, if this was a real test. And Jeff did acknowledge some of them: Water bottles on the table, etc., that the person being tested could claim would interfere with it. In a real test, there would be no stray water bottles around.

[The Professor]

I don't know the number, but I know they aren't foregoing it in your case.

Will you be emailing your protocol to Jeff Wagg this week?

Please refer your ideas concerning protocol to the appropriate thread.

So NO ONE has made it to the second round and Randi has offered to skip the first test How Many Times?

Someone should know?

[Drs_Res]

Ask Randi.

It's not relevant to you and your claim since they have stated they will not drop the prelim for you.

[The Professor]

No one knows?

[Pogo]

Randi might know. Why don't you call him and ask him?

[remirol]

So NO ONE has made it to the second round and Randi has offered to skip the first test How Many Times?

Someone should know?

Why do you want to know?

[RemieV]

The Challenge actually began in 1969 when Randi was the host of a radio show and had a guest who claimed paranormal abilities. Randi offered the individual one thousand dollars on the spot to prove it, and afterward kept a blank check for one thousand dollars in his wallet.

Eventually, that number grew to ten thousand dollars. Much later, an anonymous donor gave a million dollars.

Project Alpha, on the other hand, was first announced in 1979 - after the Challenge had already been running strong for ten years. Project Alpha was not about the Challenge at all, but about illustrating that scientists attempting to study paranormal phenomena were not establishing proper controls.

In other words, the Alpha Kids were planted in order to illustrate the flaws in scientific research - not to claim that the JREF was a scientific research facility. Randi has often said "I am not a scientist."

Challenges, as stated in the FAQ, are intended to be demonstrations of a paranormal ability. They are not science. This is illustrated by the fact that, within the application, we state that the explanations of and reasons for the ability are irrelevant.

In the case of Rosemary Hunter, we guarded against the potential ways she could have intentionally falsified her results. She was informed on the ways we could have potentially cheated as well - for instance, with a diaper. She chose to trust the JREF, and was right to do so, as no cheating occured.

I believe we even, at one point, kicked around the concept of Jeff actually donning a diaper and then removing it after the test to show there was no wetness. This was deemed unnecessary.

[steenkh]

So NO ONE has made it to the second round and Randi has offered to skip the first test How Many Times?

Someone should know?
This would mean that "someone" should take a look at all the times James Randi has approached anybody about the challenge. This seems utterly uninteresting, and particularly in your case because you have been expressly told that you have to do both tests.

What is your problem? That you do not qualify for special treatment?

[Azrael 5]

steenkh I would see his problem as being the fact he has no paranormal abilities.

How long is it since his application was accepted now? August? Not one single credible thing has he written.
Maybe he is going for a different challenge? Like how many radio presenters/Z=list celebs he can rope in to his non-existent protocol.

[Azrael 5]

Please refer your ideas concerning protocol to the appropriate thread.

So NO ONE has made it to the second round and Randi has offered to skip the first test How Many Times?

Someone should know?

Who knows maybe no-one took him up on the offer? Well Randi will know,you like to brag about phoning him so get on with it.:rolleyes:

[RoboTimbo]

Wasn't the whole problem with the Scientific Community doing shabby research the REASON for the initial MDC? The Alpha HOAX.... to teach the Scientists how Unscientific they were being .... But now the JREF is being just as bad as the Alpa scientists.

But on to the topic at hand.

How many times has James Randi offered to let others skip the preliminary test. I heard him do it at Dragoncon this year (For Warren I believe).
How often does he do this and why?


This would only be pertinent for a known claimed ability such as dowsing where protocols have long been established.

Which known ability are you claiming for which a protocol is established?

[steenkh]

This would only be pertinent for a known claimed ability such as dowsing where protocols have long been established.
Actually, no. I have never seen an example where James Randi has waivered the preliminary test in conjunction with dowsing. I think it has only happened with exceptionally well known celebrities in conjunction with a show.

[RoboTimbo]

Actually, no. I have never seen an example where James Randi has waivered the preliminary test in conjunction with dowsing. I think it has only happened with exceptionally well known celebrities in conjunction with a show.


So.... still of no importance to The Professor?

[steenkh]

So.... still of no importance to The Professor?
:)

It may be galling to The Professor that he is not reckoned among the VIPs to have an exceptional treatment. It might console him, though, that it seems that the JREF is no longer making exceptions to anyone.

[RoboTimbo]

:)

It may be galling to The Professor that he is not reckoned among the VIPs to have an exceptional treatment. It might console him, though, that it seems that the JREF is no longer making exceptions to anyone.


All a moot point now, eh? But, I predict a new round of inconsolability due to not making it to the first round.

[Azrael 5]

Serious question,with all the slandering of Jeff Wagg by idiot Professor,would JREF ever consider suing?

[Cuddles]

Please bear in mind that the Million Dollar Challenge section is for discussing the million dollar challenge. Since The Professor's application has now been rejected, discussion about him and his complaints is no longer appropriate for that section. Please keep such discussion in threads like this one (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=129655) and do not start or derail multiple threads in the MDC section.