Skeptoid 119

[EvilEye]

The marijuana question was funny, but I am curious as to why Brian used an anecdote as evidence of an overdose?

He didn't explain why he blacked out, or why he went blind in one eye, or why his left side was numb. He only attributed it to the fact that he had eaten a marijuana laced brownie.

Where is the connection?

I know he could do better than this.

[Doganharp]

Well in my vast studies of the substance (you know... in my lab,) I have never heard of anything like that...

Also, you can't overdose on Weed, just for the record. Your body would shut down long before that could happen.

Yo;)

[Bob Blaylock]

Also, you can't overdose on Weed, just for the record. Your body would shut down long before that could happen.


Wouldn't having one's body “shut down” as a result of using a drug constitute an overdose of that drug?

[neltana]

For people, like me, who don't regularly listen to the podcast, here is the relevant passage:

"Heavy usage, or even a rare heavy usage, can absolutely be a problem. I once ate some brownies that I didn't know were full of pot, then drove home. I passed out on the freeway, and came to driving on the dirt shoulder at 70 mph, blind and paralyzed on my left side. It took several days to recover fully, and you can bet I went to the hospital where they ruled out all the other possible causes they could think of. You can also bet that I'll never touch the stuff again. Don't ever OD, and don't let your friends OD."

It could be that there was something in the brownies other than just marijuana. Or he might have a medical condition interacted with the pot to cause a bad reaction.

[tyr_13]

Or it was grown with dangerous additives or in bad soil, like with cadmium. Besides, pot may very well be fairly safe (although I'm of the opinion that the benefits are overinflated by hippies because nothing is that good, not even tea), that doesn't mean safe by any means. Beer is very safe, under normal conditions. However, filter though a heavy metal contaminated screen, and it isn't. Of course beer companies loose a lot of money if that happens. Drug dealers don't, as they tend to you know, not care that much about human life.

[Kittyclaws]

All the more reason to legalize it, regulate it, and tax it.

[Doganharp]

Wouldn't having one's body “shut down” as a result of using a drug constitute an overdose of that drug?
No, what I meant was that one's body would just go to sleep. Brian's reaction could have easily been caused by any one of the aforementioned factors.

I personally have had a similar experience with brownies and more being included than I was aware of before consumption. Users are funny like that, in many of their heads it seems reasonable to think, "Hey, if I like coke and weed and this other guy obviously enjoys weed too, then he must want me to sprinkle some coke on top this bowl!" hahaha... sadly the latter is not often the case.

[tyr_13]

Well, to be fair, only cannabis itself can apparently cause the numbness and paralysis that was described. Some people are more prone than others to have this reaction. Something to do with the brain cells it is killing and inhibiting.

So it wouldn't have to be bad weed or added crack to do that, although those are still viable reasons.

[briandunning]

I would be glad to give more details of what I experienced. I don't have the explanation of exactly why it happened or what exactly caused it. Maybe it was something that had nothing to do with the brownies, maybe there was other stuff in them, I have no idea. This was over 20 years ago.

Both eyes were like a giant blind spot on the left half. So I had right-side peripheral vision only, both eyes, and could see straight ahead but not very well. My left arm and leg were numb, exactly like when they "fall asleep" from sitting on them weird. After some minutes I got pins & needles and they came back slowly, and the eyes cleared up well enough to let me complete my drive. The eyes didn't clear up completely for a few days.

I saw an internist the next day who sent me to the hospital for sleeping & waking EEGs, and they did blood tests. I don't remember any specific results, it being so long ago, just that the internist couldn't find any reason for what had happened.

Only later did I find out that the brownies had been funny brownies. The guys at the office thought my experience was pretty funny. I didn't.

[Gate2501]

Well, to be fair, only cannabis itself can apparently cause the numbness and paralysis that was described. Some people are more prone than others to have this reaction. Something to do with the brain cells it is killing and inhibiting.


Marijuana kills brain cells? I thought that there was no evidence for this theory and it was some wacky myth? Have you fallen for a myth, or am I wrong here?

[tyr_13]

Marijuana kills brain cells? I thought that there was no evidence for this theory and it was some wacky myth? Have you fallen for a myth, or am I wrong here?

Could be. There is so much hype both ways. Every time I look I get a bunch of stuff saying how great cannabis is, how it fights cancer, smoking doesn't cause it, it doesn't impair driving skills (even though it impairs decision making, so I don't know how that works), and it makes everyone happy and peaceful. Then I find a bunch of stuff saying how dangerous it is, how it can cause memory loss and impair learning for up to seven weeks after use, how smoking it is bad (but cooking and vaporizing it isn't), and how heavy uses often end up with permanently damaged cognitive skills (and at least anecdotally I've observed the last one, but that could just be because most of the pot smokers I know are also out and out morons).

Maybe I should start a 'weed woo' thread and try to sort out the false claims on both sides. Obviously it can't be as good as some people make it out to be, or as bad.

[xinit]

I would be glad to give more details of what I experienced. I don't have the explanation of exactly why it happened or what exactly caused it. Maybe it was something that had nothing to do with the brownies, maybe there was other stuff in them, I have no idea. This was over 20 years ago.

No offense at all, Brian... but had you been describing an abduction experience, it might not have sounded much different. Time and memory may have created something of an exaggerated impression in your mind with regard to what happened. Not knowing that you had consumed drugs would definitely amplify the 'oddity' of the experience.

I've never heard of anyone experiencing the symptoms you described, but I don't really have a wide personal experience with drugs of any kind, and don't tend to hang with those that do. One of the small handful of times I ever consumed burning THC laden leaves resulted in seriously messed up vision for hours, and a sense of my limbs not belonging to me. Had this happened with no cause, I imagine I'd have been much more freaked out than I was.

[PanglossCalgary]

First off, Brian what was done to you 20 years ago, would in Canada be called "administering a noxious substance" and letting you drive away would be, I hope, result in the criminal charge of reckless endangerment.

Second, people who are unaccustomed to marijuana tend to have stronger reactions to the THC. You might have been simply really stoned.

Well, I guess that's pretty obvious. Exiting stage left.

[Praktik]

Well, I think its just a matter of terminology. Maybe he had an "adverse reaction" to pot, but he DIDN'T OD.

There's something called the "therapeutic ratio" used to describe how many times more of a standard dose of a drug is required to OD. Just to take a number out of the air, let's say for cocaine its 3:1, meaning three times the normal dose is required to OD. For alcohol it might be 8:1. (again, just guessing here, been a while since I seen the material)

Researchers have yet to find the therapeutic ratio for marijuana, leaving some researchers to theorize that it may require someone to smoke a football field of marijuana before they would OD. Of course, long before the marijuana would cause such a person to "OD", they would suffer from respiratory issues from smoking a whole football field of marijuana in one go. The physical smoke would get you before the drug did. Since the dawn of recorded time, there has not been one recorded death OR OD attributed to marijuana - it just hasn't happened.

One of the handy things about pot is that since its method of induction is usually smoking - it takes effect quickly. Allowing one to ascertain where they're at and whether more is good or whether they're fine with the dose they've taken. Unlike alcohol, where it has to undergo a chemical transition in your stomach to take effect, you can end up dosing past your comfort level by mistake because of the delayed time it takes to feel anything.

Now, eating pot brownies suffers from the same weakness. People have had intense experiences because after 30 mins, they end up eating another brownie because they "dont feel anything yet". My problem with brownies is I'm impatient for them to take effect so I smoke as I eat them.

Then I end up in bed a few hours later once the brownie kicks in.

Thats a drug I can love man, when you take too much - you go to sleep. Thank god I live in Canada.

I had a dream the Americans were invading Canada last week - I saw them massing on the riverbank, ready to cross. As i ran home to collect my things and head to the hills there was one worry on my brain: "sh*t man, its gonna be a LOT tougher to smoke weed 'round here!"

hehe

[tyr_13]

Smoking weed is a double problem then isn't it? If you take too much and fall asleep...where does that lit joint go? Of course you might not be able to take enough smoking to pass out but still. The second problem is the same one I have with tobacco smoking; secondhand exposer. You can get secondhand high, but not secondhand drunk. I can't hang out with pot smokes just like I can't hang out with tobacco smokers.

Used for cooking it might not be any more dangerous than alcohol, haven't found the good information yet. Who are the researchers trying to find the therapeutic ratio for pot? SUNY Buffalo?

As for those wild claims on the benefits of pot and hemp.... http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=125071&page=2

[Praktik]

Smoking weed is a double problem then isn't it? If you take too much and fall asleep...where does that lit joint go? Of course you might not be able to take enough smoking to pass out but still. The second problem is the same one I have with tobacco smoking; secondhand exposer. You can get secondhand high, but not secondhand drunk. I can't hang out with pot smokes just like I can't hang out with tobacco smokers.

Used for cooking it might not be any more dangerous than alcohol, haven't found the good information yet. Who are the researchers trying to find the therapeutic ratio for pot? SUNY Buffalo?


This (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=therapeutic+ratio+for+pot&meta=) 'll give you a start on who's been looking at it. There's all sorts of people studying pot. You got your DEA types looking for reasons to keep it banned, you got governments considering medical use and running studies for that, you got people with no specific agenda aside from science. Its a pretty well-studied plant.

I've never fallen asleep w/ a lit joint. I can't sleep til about 30 mins after at least since I need to "come down" a bit before I can manage. So I'll read or watch something or play a video game before settling down. Maybe do my back stretches. That being said, if this is your biggest worry about pot than as far as illegal drugs go, thats one pretty small worry. To be honest, I've never actually heard of anyone falling asleep w/ a lit joint that started a fire - one reason being is that if you lit a joint and a cigarette, and lay them down in an ashtray, the cigarette will keep smoking down until it reaches the filter usually. This is due to the usually much dryer tobacco and the adulterants used to speed up the burning process. Joints go out all the time, even when passed continually around a group of friends. This is because the plant material is usually damper. That's the other nice thing about weed: if you forget your joint in the ashtray halfway through, half of it will be left. If you forget your tobacco cigarette, its gone and burned to the filter.

It may not be any more dangerous than alcohol when eaten, but there are two kinds of active THC, when smoked, the weaker variety predominates almost exclusively. When eaten you get a higher representation of the stronger chemical version and so it hits you harder. That being said, the nature of the drug does make it less dangerous than alcohol in terms of the damage it could do to your system. You can get liver failure from too much alcohol, too many pot brownies - at the very worst - could give you an intense experience psychologically, but physically it cannot hurt you inside the way consuming alcohol can.

To be honest I think I've heard of more "intense" experiences when eaten than I ever have when its smoked, due partly to the ease of dosing when smoking - you can just stop when you're happy. The safest way to consume it is neither to eat nor smoke, but to vapourize - so you dont end up consuming any combusted products, just THC and water vapour.

[tyr_13]

Except if it were legal, then the processing would result in something that probably burns much like tobacco fags wouldn't it? Besides, people will drink, and smoke pot at the same time.

Again, my main point is the secondhand high. I don't think it should be legal to burn just about anything in a public place simply because of the smoke. Thankfully I live in New York, where that is basically the case.

[Praktik]

Except if it were legal, then the processing would result in something that probably burns much like tobacco fags wouldn't it? Besides, people will drink, and smoke pot at the same time.

Again, my main point is the secondhand high. I don't think it should be legal to burn just about anything in a public place simply because of the smoke. Thankfully I live in New York, where that is basically the case.

Im not entirely sure that's true... the adulterants to speed up the burning of tobacco were added to speed the delivery of nicotine to the bloodstream - kind of part of an industry-unique approach taking advantage of the nature of nicotine and looking to make its addictive nature even more pronounced.

Given that THC is not physically addictive in the way that nicotine is I'm not entirely sure the same possibility for exploitation is available there.

It may be drier overall but in a legalized market I think the market would solve that - given that most users actually want a "middle ground" where its not so damp its impossible to light yet not so dry it turns into powder when rolling I think companies would watch their curing process and give us the "slightly damp" quality the majority of pot users demand in good quality pot.

But its a little ridiculous to argue against weed based on its potential for a fire hazard - might as well start a ban on candles and incense if we're gonna be consistent! ;)

I do agree that second-hand smoke is a concern but I think the biggest problem w/ second hand smoke is more its odour - which some find quite disagreeable - rather than its potential for causing cancer in "innocent" people.

The carcinogenic properties of the smoke of marijuana are not as well known as for tobacco but I'd be happy to adopt the European precautionary principle and basically regulate it like we do w/ tobacco.

Not in restaurants or enclosed spaces of any kind.

[tyr_13]

Seems like we are in agreement. All smoke is carcinogenic, just a note.

[Praktik]

Seems like we are in agreement. All smoke is carcinogenic, just a note.

agreed, but they do differ in degree.

Tobacco smoke has a lot more chemical byproducts cause of all the evilness they put in.

Damn nicotine, you hurt so good....