Need Help Refuting Neo-Nazi Friend: Israelis Knew About 9/11 Nonsense

[ChristianSceptics]

Hi all, my first post. Anyway I have a very smart, nice friend who unfortunately fell under the influence of some Nazi idiots over the summer. I don't usually have trouble dealing with his nonsense (which is ironic because he's studying Arabic, wants to go to the Middle East, and has a crush on an Indian girl). He posted a video on his Facebook saying that the Israelis knew about the attack and were "High-fiving" each other after it happened. I've heard this nonsense thrown up before, but I cannot for the life of my remember where I saw it refuted. Any help would be appreciated.

Post Scriptum

I made a typo in my name, as you might notice (I am only 1 Christian Skeptic). How would one go about change my name?

[Thunder]

#1..you might want to lose your friend.

#2..there is no photographic evidence of any israelis "high-fiving" each other.

#3...why would members of a super-secret Mossad mission, be in the middle of broad daylight, on top of a white van, making a movie of the towers fall, for all the world to see? why would these well trained Mossad agents WANT to look so suspicous, get caught, and focus attention on Israel, if the supposed goal of the mission would be to blaim Arabs?

had the whole van scene not occured, 9-11 conspiracy theories involving Israel would have much less to go on. why would the Mossad do such a thing?

[uk_dave]

I made a typo in my name, as you might notice (I am only 1 Christian Skeptic). How would one go about change my name?

Blame your nazi friend for 9-11 and then enter the witness protection program.

[chillzero]

I made a typo in my name, as you might notice (I am only 1 Christian Skeptic). How would one go about change my name?

I'm just responding here to prevent any derail of the thread on this matter - everyone, please respond to the rest of the OP.

If you send a Private Message to Lisa Simpson and ask nicely, she'll look into that for you.

[240-185]

He posted a video on his Facebook saying that the Israelis knew about the attack and were "High-fiving" each other after it happened. I've heard this nonsense thrown up before, but I cannot for the life of my remember where I saw it refuted.
First, tell him that a video on Facebook isn't valuable, as it is a simple video which is lost into a huge social website.
Second, ask him why he thinks the JEWS ©®™ are "in on it", and how he started to think about their responsibility.
And finally, quit your friend. You can spend your time a better way than bothering yourself to explain him that the JEWS ©®™ are not necessarily evil.

Welcome to the forum, BTW :)

[Brannagyn]

I'm curious why you think it strange that a friend who is a Neo-Nazi is anti-semetic...?

Or, is the label being applied purely as a result of this?

If the latter please make sure that he is anti-semetic rather than simply anti-Zionist. There's a world of difference (though some here might disagree). Pretty much every major world power (the US, Britain, Russia, China) gets up to some pretty reprehensible stuff. Israel too, even leaving out the Palestinian issue. The difference with Israel is that the ADL often have trouble making the anti-semite/zionist distinction.

There are more than enough legitimate neo-nazi racist loons out there to justify concern but blanket condemnations are illegitimate and likely to exacerbate the problem (if he believes he is not actually racist, being persecuted for it may potentially drive him in that direction).

In any event enquiries into the Mossad involvement in the events seems reasonable, dependant upon the manner in which it is conducted. I'm working purely off faulty memory here but my understanding was that the Mossad did pass on warnings to the US that an attack was imminent (certainly other national security agencies did) so possible foreknowledge of the event is not an unreasonable assumption. The van was interdicted by police and the men in question arrested and held. That alone should be grounds to justify further enquiries (no matter how dead-ended they might finally be).

The question you need to ask is "Is your friend sincerely pursuing what he believes is 'possible' truth, or is he simply looking for anything that might reflect negatively on Jewish people?"

I await the slew of posts telling me how this has already been thoroughly debunked and that I'm a fool for not knwoing it already.

By all means bring on the links (I'll appreciate them), I'm already fully aware of the extent of my ignorance though.

[Brannagyn]

A quick web-search to try and refresh my memory turned up this:

(Well, seems like I cant include web links yet. Do a search for 9/11 & mossad agents and look at something called whatreallyhappened. Should be among first results.)

Is this what your friend was working off? Unfortunately, I need urgent sleep before I can do more than string simple sentences together. At first glance the sources seem reliable. I'll give in a proper read and maybe further comment after I get some shut eye.

If anyone can link to the relevant counterpoint in the meanwhile you'll have my thanks.

[Foolmewunz]

http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html


Try the above. There's nothing but speculation as to why they were acting so funny and clowning around, plus there's evidently a shot of them on their van, smiling... but no one can say if that's just a stupid instinct to smile when the camera is going to click.....

And what if they'd folded their arms across their chests looking very Dylan Avery hip-hop? The conspiracy set would be saying they were signing their work and looking like toughs because they obviously did it.

There were Israelis in a van. They were taking pics. They were held in the US for quite some time, but they were released and sent home. Anything other than their word for the events is speculation. Their word may or may not be 100% accurate, but there's no evidence to contradict it other than traditional TM arguments from personal incredulity. "Just look, man, you can see that they must've been in on it."

[Caustic Logic]

I forget if it was high fives, or dancing, or what, but the event did happen. See the doc "Protocols of Zion" (Jewish-made, ant-anti-Semite film, BTW).

Here is a JREF thread on it: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=72966
An article (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm) linked there cites the lady that reported the three (not five).

The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.

They were detained, questioned, found innocent and quickly sent home. Their company, in whose van they were driving, was Urban Moving, suspected by the FBI to be an Israeli intelligence cover. IMO this is a curious incident that may signify something, but at least as likely doesn't.

As far as abandoning your friend, I say not too quick. it's not a communicable disease, you can still reach him. Sideline his concerns with a wave of the hand is the surest way no too IMO. Brannagyn's points are valid - Israel is a world power, after all. Netanyahu did say right after that 9/11 was good for Israel, in that the US would understand what they were dealing with vis a vis terrorism. Maybe these kids were thinking the same thing as they documented the moment. There are nuances to consider, but the power of the woo surrounding the joos is strong indeed...

Beyond these three kids, there's the question of Israeli intel, the Mossad, and it's knowledge. They knew in advance? And then... what, didn't share? Consider this reported meeting of 8/23/01: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a082301mossad#a082301mossad
Mossad passing the names of four of the hijackers onto American intel, which led to a frantic hunt for at least two of them in California, where the FBI famously failed to find them even in the phone book they were listed in. Too late - they waltzed right onto the planes two weeks later.

Those darn joos!

[gumboot]

If you want to really annoy your friend point at that while Israelis did not celebrate the attacks, Palestinians certainly did.

[Caustic Logic]

If you want to really annoy your friend point at that while Israelis did not celebrate the attacks, Palestinians certainly did.

In Palestine, yes. Some we saw, others probably. Gut reaction. Then they realized how good 9/11 was for Israel, amidst the existing second intifada, and stopped dancing. Palestinians boogying, high-fiving, or even mugging for terror-backed photos in NY on 9/11? None that I'm aware of.

Valid Q: What if they'd been Iraqis doing this and found to be part of a company even suspected of being a spy op for Saddam? Coincidence hell, we'd be at war within days...

Aaaand we'd be wrong. Why would they draw attention to themselves like that if involved? Same questions here. But ultimately who knows for sure? And on and on, etc...

[DC]

If you want to really annoy your friend point at that while Israelis did not celebrate the attacks, Palestinians certainly did.

the lady that got cake?

you got evidence for your claim?

[gumboot]

In Palestine, yes. Some we saw, others probably. Gut reaction. Then they realized how good 9/11 was for Israel, amidst the existing second intifada, and stopped dancing. Palestinians boogying, high-fiving, or even mugging for terror-backed photos in NY on 9/11? None that I'm aware of.

Valid Q: What if they'd been Iraqis doing this and found to be part of a company even suspected of being a spy op for Saddam? Coincidence hell, we'd be at war within days...

Aaaand we'd be wrong. Why would they draw attention to themselves like that if involved? Same questions here. But ultimately who knows for sure? And on and on, etc...



The evidence that the Israelis were doing any celebrating is weak at best. We have the testimony of a single person claiming they were happy. Extremely happy and extremely upset people can look very similar from a distance.

Personally I think the entire story reeks of embellishment. For what it's worth the Israelis in question were detained, investigated, and then released.

[gumboot]

the lady that got cake?

you got evidence for your claim?


Here's some:

mV_eN4YEEI0

And some more:

KrM0dAFsZ8k

They appear rather happy to me.

[Brannagyn]

The footage of Palestinians celebrating seems to be suported by the statements of CNN and other outlets that it was Reuters footage filmed on the day. Sure they might be unwilling to admit to some form of manipulation but the onus is to provide evidence of the same footage from an earlier event.

That said selective crowd shots are a common tool for misrepresenting the popularity of small groups. Some Palestinians /= All Palestinians...plus its irrelevant to the topic in hand.

The thread linked to above spends most of its time debating whether it was five or three Israelis, whether two or five were Mossad agents and whether or not they were dancing. Somehow its seems to completely overlook the (I would have thought more important) issue of explosives in vans and people with FBI warrants fleeing the country (and the fact that at least two seem to have been Mossad). The documentary verifies the substance of the relevant claims in the whatreallyhappened link.

I've no idea what they might have been up to, it may well have been something wholly unconnected to 9/11 that was either sensitive, illegal and/or politically embaressing. Either way it seems to me that it is something unsatisfactorily answered one way or the other.

The sourcing on the whathappnednext piece is atrocious though. It has an unattributed quote sourced from a counterpunch article that is unavailable without subscription.

"There was no question but that [the order to close down the investigation] came from the White House. It was immediately assumed at CIA headquarters that this basically was going to be a cover-up so that the Israelis would not be implicated in any way in 9/11."

Trying to find an alternate source of attribution I came across this

"Evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information."
CARL CAMERON - FOX News (December 2001)

Not sure if he's also the source for the first quote. Very little reference to this in the mainstream media, though as previous sources show the events occured in some form this shouldn't be taken as a comment on their newsworthiness, Mossad operatives in vans with explosives , even if only a possibility, is both fascinating and of national security interest.

Anyone who can help clarify things, esp. further details of the counterpunch piece, would be appreciated.

[MarkyX]

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp

More on the "manipulated" Palestinan footage that I usually hear 9/11 deniers talk about.

[Spud1k]

If I recall, the high-fiving Israelis were deported on the basis of having expired visas. So Mossad do not only employ agents unprofessional enough to start celebrating in public, but don't keep their immigration status in check.

Not that any of these problems deter your average anti-semite conspiracy theorist though. At least they didn't recount the story of the thousands of Jewish workers not going to work that morning.

[Drudgewire]

And what if they'd folded their arms across their chests looking very Dylan Avery hip-hop?


Oh, so humid. It's like a sauna in here! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Live_Jews)

[TheLoneBedouin]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_2618448d7bf14e6a0b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13886)

[Brannagyn]

If I recall, the high-fiving Israelis were deported on the basis of having expired visas. So Mossad do not only employ agents unprofessional enough to start celebrating in public, but don't keep their immigration status in check.

First, as the above referenced counterpunch article suggests the FBI considered at least two of them to have been Mossad you should first give a reason why this might be inaacurate.

Secondly, you seem to feel operating on an invalid visa is somehow at odds with spying. I find it slightly implausible that anyone engaged in spying is going to aplly for a visa by both giving their real name and stating

"Purpose of visit?"

"Oh, spying for Israel."

Intelligence agents ferquently use mulitple/fake passports, the visa status on these can obviously not be wholly legitimate.

In the year following 9/11 several dozen supposed Israeli 'art students' were arrested and deported. A DEA report (seems they were the first agency to notice, or perhaps care about, the suspicious activity) suggested they may be part of a well organized intelligence ring. The Justice Department later highlighted the fact that they were deported on visa violations only and no espionage charges had been filed.

This seems to be the pattern when assets of allies are picked up. What do you think would have happened if 'students' from any other Middle Eastern country had been paying doorstop visits to the homes of enough agents, military bases and federal instillations to trigger such suspicions and on investigation it was found:

"a majority of the young people questioned by U.S. investigators acknowledged having served in military intelligence, electronic-signals interception or explosive ordnance units in the Israeli military" (Associated Press, 6th March 2002)

"Apparently they were neither artists nor students.

The DEA's draft report, obtained by The Associated Press, said one leader of a group of sales people described buying the paintings for $8 to $10 in Florida, then reselling them for $50 or more.

Some of the Israelis said the art came from Universal Art Inc. in Sunrise, Fla. Repeated calls to the company were not answered.

Several of those questioned by investigators said they were students from Bezalel Academy of Art and Design. But Pnina Calpen, spokeswoman for the Israeli school, said no one named in the report was a student there in the last 10 years." (Associated Press 9th March 2002)

I doubt very much it would have been a slap-on the wrist visa deportation rather than orange jumpsuits and a one way ticket to Cuba.

In any event, the key point remains the FBI apparently acknowledged that at least two of the men in question were Mossad.

Anyone who can shed any futher light on such issues is invited to. I remain very interested in the relationship between Israeli intelligence and the US government in general. Espcially so in the build up to war against Iran and the role of the CIA and Mossad in encouraging it (particularly their bugled entrapment operation which effecively gave Iran the designs for nuclear warheads - see: Haartz 6th March 2008)

Not that any of these problems deter your average anti-semite conspiracy theorist though.

Should I take the fact that your comments fail to satisfy my curiosity to mean you are including me in this broad-ranging labelling of "anti-semite" and "conspiracy-theorist"?

[njslim]

Not only in Palestine were there celebrations - here in Paterson NJ (which is 60 %
Islamic/Arabic) people were dancing in streets until Hispanic "Youts" began kicking butt

In other town nearby at Dunkin Donuts the owner (originally from Iran) expressed his
glee at collapse of towers - got ass kicked by several people. Afterwards nobody in
the area would patronize shop and was forced to close...

[MarkCorrigan]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_2618448d7bf14e6a0b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13886)

Oh good grief.

I am extremely critical of Israel, and yet I think it's pretty damn neo-naziesque to claim Jews in general or the state of Israel were complicit in or cheering on the attacks on the WTC.

Heck, I am far from being a nazi, and I think Israel acts in terrible ways and I call them on it. This was not one of them.

[Brannagyn]

Once again, the Arab reaction to the attacks is irrelevant to the OP. That said...

@njslim: You have heard of Snopes? The Dunkin' Donuts story is wholly baseless and there is no evidence at all of Arabs celebrating in Paterson or anywhere else in the US. In the week following 9/11 and internet chain letter reported and spread the story about Paterson Arabs. As one of the largest Arab communities in the region close to the attacks its is predictable that it would be focused on but there was absolutely no evidence to support the claims of this solely internet-based accusation.

As a puported resident of Paterson it would be expected that njslim would have a greater awareness of the events than most so perhaps he can provide links to evidence other than hearsay and rumor, unless that is all he has been basing his opinions on.

The idea that all the major networks would repeatedly air the footage of Palestinians in Israel dancing and not even mention a supposed week-long street party by New Jersey Arabs is ludicrous.

@MarkCorrigan: Nowhere in the thread have any claims been made against Jews in general, please try to avoid attributing false accusations to others. Or, is your view that to query the virtue of any Jewish person, even if they are Israeli intelligence operatives operating illegally in the US, is off limits?

Additionally, the important question (in my opinion at least) is not complicity in the attacks or their happiness, or lack thereof, following the attacks but rather the fact that an Israeli intelligence cell seems to have been conducting operations in and around New York during the period of the attacks, that they may have possible had foreknowledge of the attacks and that this information has not been properly highlighted or investigated.

The reasons for and possible implications of this are numerous they do not equate, however, into "It was the Jewz wot did 9/11".

Perhaps you can state whether you recognize this as valid and, also, please calrify your accusation of "Neo-Naziesque". Are you refering to the friend of the OP or someone else?

[Spud1k]

First, as the above referenced counterpunch article suggests the FBI considered at least two of them to have been Mossad you should first give a reason why this might be inaacurate.

Secondly, you seem to feel operating on an invalid visa is somehow at odds with spying. I find it slightly implausible that anyone engaged in spying is going to aplly for a visa by both giving their real name and stating

"Purpose of visit?"

"Oh, spying for Israel."

Intelligence agents ferquently use mulitple/fake passports, the visa status on these can obviously not be wholly legitimate.

In the year following 9/11 several dozen supposed Israeli 'art students' were arrested and deported. A DEA report (seems they were the first agency to notice, or perhaps care about, the suspicious activity) suggested they may be part of a well organized intelligence ring. The Justice Department later highlighted the fact that they were deported on visa violations only and no espionage charges had been filed.

This seems to be the pattern when assets of allies are picked up. What do you think would have happened if 'students' from any other Middle Eastern country had been paying doorstop visits to the homes of enough agents, military bases and federal instillations to trigger such suspicions and on investigation it was found:

"a majority of the young people questioned by U.S. investigators acknowledged having served in military intelligence, electronic-signals interception or explosive ordnance units in the Israeli military" (Associated Press, 6th March 2002)

"Apparently they were neither artists nor students.

The DEA's draft report, obtained by The Associated Press, said one leader of a group of sales people described buying the paintings for $8 to $10 in Florida, then reselling them for $50 or more.

Some of the Israelis said the art came from Universal Art Inc. in Sunrise, Fla. Repeated calls to the company were not answered.

Several of those questioned by investigators said they were students from Bezalel Academy of Art and Design. But Pnina Calpen, spokeswoman for the Israeli school, said no one named in the report was a student there in the last 10 years." (Associated Press 9th March 2002)

I doubt very much it would have been a slap-on the wrist visa deportation rather than orange jumpsuits and a one way ticket to Cuba.

That is all just endless speculation. Real intelligence agents typically work out of embassies (cultural attaché is the usual wheeze) and develop networks of assets from a country's own population. Given how many pro-Israel people there are in America, do you really think they'd have to send over illegal immigrants?

In any event, the key point remains the FBI apparently acknowledged that at least two of the men in question were Mossad.

Do you have any source to say they actually (as opposed to apparently) acknowledged they were Mossad?

The only credible thing I've seen relating to that is that one of the people at one point claimed they were Mossad agents. But given that these guys were quite clearly dicks (independent of whether they were agents or not) it sounds like something they'd come out with (amongst other things) to avoid deportation. As far as I can tell, the FBI may have investigated the possibility and found that they weren't. You can take anyone from a country with national service and find some sort of military connection on them.

And besides all that, even assuming they were all Mossad agents, what does that prove? As I said, these guys were quite clearly being dicks on that day. Does that necessarily mean they had to have known something that everyone didn't? No.

Should I take the fact that your comments fail to satisfy my curiosity to mean you are including me in this broad-ranging labelling of "anti-semite" and "conspiracy-theorist"?

No. I said 'it doesn't satisfy the anti-semite conspiracy theorists', not 'people who it doesn't satisfy are anti-semite conspiracy theorists' so please don't try to play that card on me.

[TC329]

Hi all, my first post. Anyway I have a very smart, nice friend who unfortunately fell under the influence of some Nazi idiots over the summer. I don't usually have trouble dealing with his nonsense (which is ironic because he's studying Arabic, wants to go to the Middle East, and has a crush on an Indian girl). He posted a video on his Facebook saying that the Israelis knew about the attack and were "High-fiving" each other after it happened. I've heard this nonsense thrown up before, but I cannot for the life of my remember where I saw it refuted. Any help would be appreciated.

Post Scriptum

I made a typo in my name, as you might notice (I am only 1 Christian Skeptic). How would one go about change my name?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVDCzymSTw8

ever think maybe your friend is right?

[now watch all the names i get called and how this evidence is dismissed/ignored]

[Brannagyn]

No. I said 'it doesn't satisfy the anti-semite conspiracy theorists', not 'people who it doesn't satisfy are anti-semite conspiracy theorists' so please don't try to play that card on me.

You thus accept that there are many other people other than anti-semities who it might equally apply to. A more suitable phrase would therefore be "it doesn't satisfy a lot of people."

That is all just endless speculation. Real intelligence agents typically work out of embassies (cultural attaché is the usual wheeze) and develop networks of assets from a country's own population.

There are countless publically available sources but just one would be Alen Dulles "The Craft of Intelligence". You can check out pp. 96-97 to determine the difference between legals and illegals and assure yoruself that agents do not "typically work out of embassies".

You can take anyone from a country with national service and find some sort of military connection on them.

Yes, and if you take a large group and find that the majority have a communications, intelligence or demolitions background you'll be justified in wondering if your sample is not entirely random.

Do you have any source to say they actually (as opposed to apparently) acknowledged they were Mossad?

The Sunday Herald, 2nd November 2003, has a lengthy article that consolidates pretty much all the information mentioned above. Additional excerpts from it:

"Jim Margolin, an FBI spokesman in New York, implied that the public would never know the truth, saying: "If we found evidence of unauthorised intelligence operations that would be classified material." "

i.e. No government source would openly acknowledge it even if they had proof they were Mossad. The clearest confirmation seems to be from an unnamed government official used as an intelligence source by the New York Jewish newspaper "The Forward". By no means reliable but sufficient to warrant closer scrutiny, something which did not take place.

Re. the visa excuse for deportation:

Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at Boston's Political Research Associates and an expert in intelligence, says: "It's a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn't do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always visa violation."

And besides all that, even assuming they were all Mossad agents, what does that prove? As I said, these guys were quite clearly being dicks on that day.

Actually there is no proof that they were being dicks. Its also irrelevant. The question is why would a large scale Mossad operation during such a critical period receive so little attention. Regardless of whether they are US allies, efforts to quietly sweep things under the rug or avoid embrassment to 'friends' simply fuels speculation and bypasses public right to some form of oversight on issues of national security.

[gumboot]

Yes, and if you take a large group and find that the majority have a communications, intelligence or demolitions background you'll be justified in wondering if your sample is not entirely random.

You may have missed the "national service" bit. All male Israeli adults have connections to the military. If you randomly sample adult male Israelis your rate of military-related backgrounds will be 100%.



i.e. No government source would openly acknowledge it even if they had proof they were Mossad.

Absence of evidence is not evidence.


By no means reliable but sufficient to warrant closer scrutiny, something which did not take place.

How do you know? You just quoted an FBI agent saying that sort of thing would be classified. For all you know they waterboarded the guys.




Actually there is no proof that they were being dicks. Its also irrelevant. The question is why would a large scale Mossad operation during such a critical period receive so little attention.

Suddenly two Mossad agents are a "large scale operation"? ridiculous.

And again, how do you know these Israelis received "so little attention". You do not have the most remote idea of how much attention they were given. Do you seriously think the US government would publicly disclose the findings of an investigation into a suspected spy? Really?


Regardless of whether they are US allies, efforts to quietly sweep things under the rug or avoid embrassment to 'friends' simply fuels speculation and bypasses public right to some form of oversight on issues of national security.

National security, by its very nature, doesn't allow oversight by the general public.

[Brannagyn]

You may have missed the "national service" bit.


....okay...you might have missed the "intelligence, comms and demo specialisations" bit. I'm sure the DEA didnt think it odd that Israeli's had military service. For some reasons though they, not I, noted the surprising number whose service had been in fields usually seen as intelligence related.

Absence of evidence is not evidence.
.

Did you somehow interpret that quote to mean "By not saying anything the government has declared them Mossad spies!" If so, try again.

Suddenly two Mossad agents are a "large scale operation"? ridiculous.

You realize this and the above quotes are a refering to both the DEA report on dozens of Israeli 'art students' and the possible use of an entire moving firm as a cover, not simply two people. Also, once again you are disagreeing with the DEA's assessment, not mine.

And again, how do you know these Israelis received "so little attention". You do not have the most remote idea of how much attention they were given.

a) you have no idea what I know about the situation
b) I'm clearly far more aware of the topic than the average person and have already displayed that I have some awareness of the level of attention they received from the US authorities. Please illuminate me if you can show that YOU at least have more awareness of it than I.

The New York group were transfered from police custody to the FBI's Criminal Division and from there to the Foreign Counterintelligence Section. They were held for two weeks and appeared before a judge who ordered their deportation. The CIA then intervened and held them for another 10 weeks. They were given polygraph tests, one refused to cooperate for the full 10 weeks, others failed some questions. They were finally released largely due to direct pressure from the Israeli government and several US congressmen.

This, I take it, is not even remotely aware?

Oh yeah...

c) I was refering to media attention to the events.

Do you seriously think the US government would publicly disclose the findings of an investigation into a suspected spy? Really?.

Do you know Wen Ho Lee, the nucelar scientist who was awarded almost million dollars by the US government and more than half a million by several media outlets as a settlement for charges that the Clinton administration had revealed to those outlets that he was under investigation for spying? This was only a scandal because he still being investigated (i.e. innocent until proven guilty). Why in the world do you think the government would not reveal the results of an investigation that had returned proof of guilt?

National security, by its very nature, doesn't allow oversight by the general public.

Differentiate between "public oversight" and "the general public".

[Brannagyn]

For the OP's friend

http://stripgenerator.com/strip/170971/

(not sure how to embed the image directly)

btw. Would any of you ever have considered labeling njslim as a neo-Nazi for resucitating long disproven slanders against the Arab community? I'd give the benefit and say simple mistake myself. Nonetheless, surely not a double standard at work?

[Dave Rogers]

For the OP's friend

http://stripgenerator.com/strip/170971/

I'd like to comment on the rather odd behaviour of the truthers in this thread, because there's rather an interesting knee-jerk reaction from them here.

First of all, try actually reading and comprehending the OP.

"Anyway I have a very smart, nice friend who unfortunately fell under the influence of some Nazi idiots over the summer. "

Note what this doesn't say. It doesn't say "My friend was persuaded that the Five Dancing Jews story implied Mossad were involved in the 9/11 attacks, therefore the people persuading him were Nazis." Instead, it strongly suggests that these idiots were known to be Nazis from other evidence, and therefore implies that they took an interest in this story because they were Nazis, not the converse.

I have noticed intolerance and logically flawed arguments on both sides on the question of antisemitism in the 9/11 truth movement, and have probably perpetrated the same myself on occasion. However, that's a separate issue to what's being discussed here. What I find surprising is that Brannagyn and TheLoneBedouin immediately jump to the defence of anyone accused of neo-Nazism or anti-semitism, despite having no idea why those accusations are being made. In the absence of any such information, it's easy to receive the impression, even if mistaken, that it is not those mistakenly accused of anti-semitism that they are seeking to defend, but those accurately accused of it.

Dave

[Spud1k]

You thus accept that there are many other people other than anti-semities who it might equally apply to. A more suitable phrase would therefore be "it doesn't satisfy a lot of people."

I said what I said and I stand by it. Are you trying to claim that there is no such thing as anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists or something?

There are countless publically available sources but just one would be Alen Dulles "The Craft of Intelligence". You can check out pp. 96-97 to determine the difference between legals and illegals and assure yoruself that agents do not "typically work out of embassies".

All sorts of methods go on but the notion that Israel needs to rely solely on inserting working-class illegal immigrants into America is just plain stupid. If they had some sort of super-secret operation that involved complicity in the most historically defining moment of the early 21st century, you'd think they'd be able to do better than that.

Yes, and if you take a large group and find that the majority have a communications, intelligence or demolitions background you'll be justified in wondering if your sample is not entirely random.

The Sunday Herald, 2nd November 2003, has a lengthy article that consolidates pretty much all the information mentioned above. Additional excerpts from it:

(snip)



Still, all I hear is speculation and no actual evidence.

Actually there is no proof that they were being dicks.

They were witnessed giving each other high fives during the single biggest terrorist atrocity the world has ever seen. I don't care what they were or who they worked for, they were being dicks.

The question is why would a large scale Mossad operation during such a critical period receive so little attention.

Is it any wonder it doesn't get much attention? You still haven't proved it was Mossad (only that some people speculated it might be) and even if it was, it can hardly be described as a large scale operation. And as for the timing, they wouldn't have got picked up if it wasn't for the fact that every American was in ultra-paranoid mode that day. The idea that they had something to do with the events of that day takes a few too many leaps of the imagination.

Regardless of whether they are US allies, efforts to quietly sweep things under the rug or avoid embrassment to 'friends' simply fuels speculation and bypasses public right to some form of oversight on issues of national security.

Like the government is going to give everyone every single detail on issues of national security. People are more than free to speculate, but using the lack of disproof as proof is just plain silly.

[JihadJane]

I have heard there was much whooping to be heard in the US from people watching the US' "Shock and Awe" terror attacks on Iraq on TV. Is this true?

[Spud1k]

Which has precisely what to do with what now?

[MarkyX]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_2618448d7bf14e6a0b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13886)

Amazing. Despite there is no evidence of Israeli involvement in 9/11, you still manage to come up with this garbage.

It is anti-semitism when you decide to target Jews because they are Jews. For example, it shows quite a bit of anti-semitism when a 9/11 denier says "how come WTC7 wasn't mentioned in the report?" while forgetting the fact several others buildings also fell. Why the focus is only on WTC7? Oh right, owner is Jewish.

[MaGZ]

Hi all, my first post. Anyway I have a very smart, nice friend who unfortunately fell under the influence of some Nazi idiots over the summer. I don't usually have trouble dealing with his nonsense (which is ironic because he's studying Arabic, wants to go to the Middle East, and has a crush on an Indian girl). He posted a video on his Facebook saying that the Israelis knew about the attack and were "High-fiving" each other after it happened. I've heard this nonsense thrown up before, but I cannot for the life of my remember where I saw it refuted. Any help would be appreciated.


Your friend hardly sounds like a neo-Nazi. Others have realized the Israelis knew about the plot and they cannot in anyway be considered neo-Nazis.
Examples: the articles that have appeared in Salon and Counterpunch. Are Salon and Counterpunch neo-Nazi sources of information?

http://www.rense.com/general24/artd.htm (http://www.rense.com/general24/artd.htm)

http://www.counterpunch.org/ketcham03072007.html (http://www.counterpunch.org/ketcham03072007.html)

Can we first get past the labeling and have an intelligent discussion of this topic?

Also, welcome to the forum.

[cludgie]

Well one of your links is to rense.com, a site that certainly carries its fair share of stories with anti-semitic overtones.

[Dave Rogers]

Your friend hardly sounds like a neo-Nazi. Others have realized the Israelis knew about the plot and they cannot in anyway be considered neo-Nazis.

Please note, ChristianSceptic, that "MaGZ" is an abbreviation of "Missiles at Ground Zero", that MaGZ's fundamental belief about 9/11 is that WTC7 collapsed due to having been hit by a Sidewinder air-to-air missile fired by a fighter trying to bring down flight 175, and that he/she continually posts assertions of various crimes supposedly committed by the state of Israel while refusing to advance any evidence in their favour. If MaGZ defends someone else's point of view, that is in no sense a positive recommendation.

You'll also note that MaGZ, in common with all the other people attacking you for your use of the word "Nazi", has read what he or she wanted to read in your opening post, rather than what you actually said there.

Dave

[JihadJane]

"I have heard there was much whooping to be heard in the US from people watching the US' 'Shock and Awe' terror attacks on Iraq on TV. Is this true?"-JJ

Which has precisely what to do with what now?

It has to do with the moralistic mileage some attempt to make out of the alleged fact that some people might have celebrated America being successfully attacked.

(See discussions about dancing Palestinians/Israelis, above.)

[MaGZ]

Please note, ChristianSceptic, that "MaGZ" is an abbreviation of "Missiles at Ground Zero", that MaGZ's fundamental belief about 9/11 is that WTC7 collapsed due to having been hit by a Sidewinder air-to-air missile fired by a fighter trying to bring down flight 175, and that he/she continually posts assertions of various crimes supposedly committed by the state of Israel while refusing to advance any evidence in their favour. If MaGZ defends someone else's point of view, that is in no sense a positive recommendation.

You'll also note that MaGZ, in common with all the other people attacking you for your use of the word "Nazi", has read what he or she wanted to read in your opening post, rather than what you actually said there.

Dave

You are attempting to derail this thread. Stay on topic.

I have never said the missile that hit WTC 7 caused the collapse of the building. I’m convinced the building was pulled in a controlled demolition that afternoon. The missile that hit the south side of WTC 7 at 9:03 am likely started the fires in the building.

Your post shows your ignorance and inaccuracies in what I believe.

[Dave Rogers]

You are attempting to derail this thread. Stay on topic.

Topics drift, and the credibility of people advancing on-topic claims is relevant.

I have never said the missile that hit WTC 7 caused the collapse of the building. I’m convinced the building was pulled in a controlled demolition that afternoon. The missile that hit the south side of WTC 7 at 9:03 am likely started the fires in the building.

Your post shows your ignorance and inaccuracies in what I believe.

I apologise for my inadvertent misrepresentation of your beliefs, which I realise are even further removed from reality than I had previously thought. While we're on the subject, does Larry Silverstein's ethnicity have any bearing on your interpretation of his motives in this instance?

Dave

[MaGZ]

Here's some:

mV_eN4YEEI0

And some more:

KrM0dAFsZ8k

They appear rather happy to me.

The Palestinians filmed celebrating over 9/11 were living in a refugee camp in Lebanon. They blame Israel and the US for their plight.

[Spud1k]

"I have heard there was much whooping to be heard in the US from people watching the US' 'Shock and Awe' terror attacks on Iraq on TV. Is this true?"-JJ



It has to do with the moralistic mileage some attempt to make out of the alleged fact that some people might have celebrated America being successfully attacked.

(See discussions about dancing Palestinians/Israelis, above.)

Wasn't trying to be all moralistic. I was just illustrating the fact that the 'dancing Israelis' were hardly exhibiting the behaviour you'd expect from some Mossad agents on a 'major operation'. The supposed faking of the 'dancing Palestinians' is just a completely false conspiracy theory that routinely gets banded around by certain groups and individuals that have rabidly prejudiced anti-Semitism/Zionism/Israel (delete as appropriate convenient) tendencies, of which the Neo-Nazis mentioned by the OP would probably count as (as a guess).

As for the war in Iraq, I have my opinions, but they have nothing at all to do with the topic under discussion.

[Spud1k]

The Palestinians filmed celebrating over 9/11 were living in a refugee camp in Lebanon. They blame Israel and the US for their plight.

So we're in agreement that some Palestinians were indeed celebrating and it wasn't just a media smokescreen. In the context of what you just said, this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1538861.stm) is also worth noting:

The Palestinian authority is said to have ordered youths in the occupied territories not to congregate or show any signs of jubilation.

But in Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank and Lebanon, shots were fired in celebration and some said that as Israel's chief backer, the United States deserved this punishment.

I'm not trying to take sides against the Palestinians here, but to try to claim there's never been any anti-US sentiment there is just too big a lie to let slip.

[MaGZ]

In the year following 9/11 several dozen supposed Israeli 'art students' were arrested and deported. A DEA report (seems they were the first agency to notice, or perhaps care about, the suspicious activity) suggested they may be part of a well organized intelligence ring. The Justice Department later highlighted the fact that they were deported on visa violations only and no espionage charges had been filed.



You are confusing the Dancing Israelis with the Israeli Art Students. It is possible the Dancing Israelis were just in the area when the attacks happened. Moving companies in the northeast manned by Israelis are notorious for being Mossad fronts.

The IAS ring was discovered before 9/11 by the FBI and DEA. They were sent back to Israel before the attacks. Most of the Israelis that were rounded up and detained after 9/11 (around 60) came from shopping mall kiosks. The FBI believes they were part of a spy ring that targeted US military installations. These were detained for several months before they were sent back to Israel.

[MaGZ]

The White Van
Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm

I found this lie to be a bit amusing.


As to what they were doing on the van, they say they read about the attack on the Internet, couldn't see it from their offices and went to the parking lot for a better view. But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct.

[Jonnyclueless]

But were they the same Israeli's that jumped out of the nose of the planes before they hit the targets?

[Spud1k]

The White Van
Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm

I found this lie to be a bit amusing.

As to what they were doing on the van, they say they read about the attack on the Internet, couldn't see it from their offices and went to the parking lot for a better view. But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct.

I really fail to see how 'immature conduct' (being dicks) is that lacking as an explanation. Put it this way; I can't think of anything better. It's not like them being spies would explain their conduct.

[Mince]

Neo-Nazi? I don't know, but I imagine that someone with, seemingly, such an extreme philosophy won't allow himself to be convinced of anything adverse. You might want to ask yourself if it's really all that important in the vast configuration of things.

[MaGZ]

I really fail to see how 'immature conduct' (being dicks) is that lacking as an explanation. Put it this way; I can't think of anything better. It's not like them being spies would explain their conduct.

The FBI determined at least two of them were Mossad operative as reported in The Forward .

[Spud1k]

The FBI determined at least two of them were Mossad operative as reported in The Forward .

And now we're back at the 'unnamed source' that was mentioned earlier. Do you have a link for that? Did anyone actually go on the record to say they were Mossad?

My point is that you have scant evidence beyond speculation to say they were Mossad. And even if they were, you have even less to say that they had any involvement in the events of 9/11. The circumstances surrounding the white van incident don't support either assertion.

[gumboot]

....okay...you might have missed the "intelligence, comms and demo specialisations" bit. I'm sure the DEA didnt think it odd that Israeli's had military service. For some reasons though they, not I, noted the surprising number whose service had been in fields usually seen as intelligence related.

Talk about theory creep...

Le Monde and Intelligence Online obtained copies of the DEA report that Fox News and Die Zeit had quoted, and discovered that much of the story was wholesale fabrication. The DEA had not identified any of the Israelis as spies - they were suspected con-artists, linked in with ecstacy dealing. The report at one point mentions as a suggestion that they "might" be spies, and that's all it does. No mention of military backgrounds.

For what it's worth, communications, intelligence gathering, and explosives are very common military skills, and don't in any way suggest espionage.



Did you somehow interpret that quote to mean "By not saying anything the government has declared them Mossad spies!" If so, try again.

That's precisely what your comment implies.



You realize this and the above quotes are a refering to both the DEA report on dozens of Israeli 'art students' and the possible use of an entire moving firm as a cover, not simply two people. Also, once again you are disagreeing with the DEA's assessment, not mine.

I thought we were talking about the "dancing Israelis", two of which are alleged to be Israeli agents. The "art students" used the fact they were students (not all were art students) as their cover. You seem to have made a link between two different groups of Israelis here.

Your quotes don't refer to the DEA report, of course, they refer to Fox News and Die Zeit's dishonest and outright false representation of the report. Two other news agencies obtained copies and concluded the stories run by Fox and Die Zeit were nonsense.


a) you have no idea what I know about the situation

I know what you're presenting here.


b) I'm clearly far more aware of the topic than the average person and have already displayed that I have some awareness of the level of attention they received from the US authorities. Please illuminate me if you can show that YOU at least have more awareness of it than I.

I for one know that the original story by Fox News reporter Carl Cameron is largely false and based on misrepresenting a report.


The New York group were transfered from police custody to the FBI's Criminal Division and from there to the Foreign Counterintelligence Section. They were held for two weeks and appeared before a judge who ordered their deportation. The CIA then intervened and held them for another 10 weeks. They were given polygraph tests, one refused to cooperate for the full 10 weeks, others failed some questions. They were finally released largely due to direct pressure from the Israeli government and several US congressmen.

This, I take it, is not even remotely aware?

You'll provide a source for all this, of course?



c) I was refering to media attention to the events.

Fox News were pretty excited by it - enough to run a four part series on it. Why didn't it go anywhere?

Reporters at the New York Times and the Washington Post hit up their go-to people inside Justice and FBI and CIA, but no one could seem to confirm the story, and indeed numerous officials laughed it off. Fox got it wrong, the newspapers of record concluded. And nothing more was heard on the topic in mainstream quarters.

Salon (http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2002/05/07/students/index_np.html?pn=2)

It was a non-story. That's why it didn't get prolonged coverage.


Do you know Wen Ho Lee, the nucelar scientist who was awarded almost million dollars by the US government and more than half a million by several media outlets as a settlement for charges that the Clinton administration had revealed to those outlets that he was under investigation for spying? This was only a scandal because he still being investigated (i.e. innocent until proven guilty). Why in the world do you think the government would not reveal the results of an investigation that had returned proof of guilt?

Because it involved agents of a close ally, and directly related to 9/11 (if Mossad agents genuinely were in the USA it would almost certainly be to track Muslim terrorists)


Differentiate between "public oversight" and "the general public".

Public oversight means oversight by the general public. You cannot let the general population know national security secrets. That's a certain way to render national security non existent. Oversight is maintained by the government hierarchy.

[gumboot]

For the record, the DEA Report lists about 120 names of suspects and only 8 of them have any military background, which is actually rather low by Israeli standards (bear in mind they are mostly quite young).

It's worth noting the report only suggests they're an intelligence gathering network, not an Israeli government intelligence gathering network. The DEA was at the time heavily involved in investigating Israeli organised crime rings selling Ecstasy in the USA, and some of those involved in this art scam ring were linked to those criminals, and some had previous narcotics convictions. The most likely explanation (and only really plausible one, since they mainly targeted DEA offices) is that this was an attempt by the Israeli drug dealing ring to get intelligence from the DEA about their investigations into the ring.

It needs to be reiterated that these Israelis were very young - some were still in their early twenties. They might be a spy ring in some ridiculous teen movie, but not in the real world.

ETA. The DEA report is here (http://cryptome.org/dea-il-spy.htm).

Here's (http://911review.org/Alex/Isreali_Art_Students.html) a good summary of the story.

[Jonnyclueless]

Keep in mind that in Israel EVERYONE must serve in the military by law.

[gumboot]

The Palestinians filmed celebrating over 9/11 were living in a refugee camp in Lebanon. They blame Israel and the US for their plight.


They were living in their own territory in the West Bank. They were not refugees.

[Slayhamlet]

Keep in mind that in Israel EVERYONE must serve in the military by law.

Not quite. Arab Israelis are exempt (except for Druze, who distinguish themselves culturally from the Arabs). Haredi Jews (ultra-Orthodox) are also exempt for religious reasons. And of course only the able-bodied are allowed to serve.

[Brannagyn]

the credibility of people advancing on-topic claims is relevant.

Ehm...no it isn't. Seriously, am I mistaken or is this not supposed to be a forum for rational thought?

http://stripgenerator.com/strip/171156/

The slew of other posts (none of which seem to deal with either the primary subject or the question of double standards) will have to wait till I get some sleep. Long night celebrating things far more important than forum egos.

[Jonnyclueless]

I'm sorry, can someone please remind us what these guys did? I am missing the crime here.

[MarkyX]

I'm sorry, can someone please remind us what these guys did? I am missing the crime here.

Apparently they video taped the towers burning, despite every mainstream media and person with a camera recording the events as well.

Oh wait, they're Jewish, therefore guilty.

[Dave Rogers]

Ehm...no it isn't. Seriously, am I mistaken or is this not supposed to be a forum for rational thought?

It is when the specific poster has a long history of advancing hypotheses without evidence, or claiming incorrectly that evidence presented supports his or her hypotheses. MaGZ's only argument is an appeal to his/her own authority, in which case it is legitimate to point out that this authority does not exist. In the case of MaGZ's personal judgement as to whether some unknown third party is a neo-Nazi, MaGZ's own neo-Nazi sympathies are perhaps the only relevant criterion.

As for your comic strip example, it's a strangely relevant one in this case. If MaGZ were to tell me that a building was on fire, my first supposition, based on experience of his/her repeated assertions, would be that the sun was reflecting off a window.

Dave

[Brannagyn]

Fair enough. Presumably you would not simply turn over and go to sleep though.

@MagZ:
"You are confusing the Dancing Israelis with the Israeli Art Students."

Thanks for pointing that out! I'm aware the Art students was prior to 9/11 (as the articles I refered to indicate) but I did get them mixed up here. The fact that its actually possible to get mixed up about which possible Israeli intelligence ring you're discussing speaks volumes.


@gumboot:
"For what it's worth, communications, intelligence gathering, and explosives are very common military skills, and don't in any way suggest espionage."

The fact that they are common military skills is in no way related to serving in a unit focused on those skills.

"Your quotes don't refer to the DEA report, of course, they refer to Fox News and Die Zeit's dishonest and outright false representation of the report. Two other news agencies obtained copies and concluded the stories run by Fox and Die Zeit were nonsense."

Your link to "The DEA report is here." does not, of course, link to the actual DEA report but an unverified scan of a puported report. Lets take it at face value though. From the introduction:

"(The DEA IS) began to receive reports of Israeli arts students attempting to penetrate several DEA offices.....There have been reports of Israeli art students visiting the homes of numerous DEA employees....These incidents have involved several other law enforcement and Department of Defense agencies, with contacts made at other agencies facilities and the residences of their employees......The nature ofthe individuals conduct, combined with intelligence and historical information regarding past incidents involving Israeli Organized Crime, leads IS to believe that these incidents may well be an organized intelligence gathering activity."

"I for one know that the original story by Fox News reporter Carl Cameron is largely false and based on misrepresenting a report."

What exactly is the nature of the lies and misrepresentation allegedly contained in the news coverage of this report? Did they exagerate the story as they often do? Perhaps they were definitive in stating the reports said the students were spies? So what? Their inaccuarcy does not invalidate the relevance of the reports couched suppositions. (okay, that was a convoluted sentence, apologies)

Main point being the DEA report states that it they believe the group may well have been involved in an espionage operation.

The OP was looking for sources to refute his 'neo-Nazi' friends allegations. From that point there has been evidence provided that there are several different cases of Israeli spying operations being run in the US that do not seem to have received the right amount of attention from the press.

Your link has a large number of additional links and I havent had a chance to read through them all yet. This one:
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/072000/0007043.html
however, highlights the imbalance in coverage between the US and Israeli press in another puported incident of Israeli spying (the latter pay far more attention). I'm unfamiliar with it, perhaps this story has been debunked elsewhere?

Please clarify if you feel evidence has not been provided to show that there is at least some warranted suspicion that Israeli intelligence operations have been conducted on a large scale and that these suspicions alone are enough to warrant a higher level of media scrutiny than actually occured.

"You'll provide a source for all this, of course?"

I think I previously gave it but...Sunday Herald 2nd November 2003. By all means look into what sources they in turn used.

"It needs to be reiterated that these Israelis were very young - some were still in their early twenties. They might be a spy ring in some ridiculous teen movie, but not in the real world."

I'm sorry but this, and the same comment found in the article to which you link "Why would the Mossad - or any spy outfit with a lick of good sense - use kids without papers as spies?", shows a profound lack of awareness of how intelligence agencies operate. Agents or assets in their mid-twenties are not by any means remarkable. You should also avoid refering as "kids" to people who have done several years of service in the Israeli military. Apart from the fact they themselves would not take very kindly to it, it disingenuously plays down their capabilities.

"For the record, the DEA Report lists about 120 names of suspects and only 8 of them have any military background, which is actually rather low by Israeli standards (bear in mind they are mostly quite young)."

You, or somebody else, have mistakenly gone through the appendix and counted the number of times military service is specifically mentioned. The tally has no meaning, absence of stated service in the list does not mean they did not serve (as Israeli they almost certainly all did) . The report clearly states:

"Most admit to having served in the Israeli military. This is not surprising given the mandatory military service requiredin Israel, however a majority of those questioned stated they served in military intelligence, electronic signal intercept or explosive ordnance UNITS."

"The most likely explanation (and only really plausible one, since they mainly targeted DEA offices) is that this was an attempt by the Israeli drug dealing ring to get intelligence from the DEA about their investigations into the ring."

An utterly implausible explanation. The report states that a wide variety of federal and military instillations and personnel were targeted. That the report primarily contains an disproportionate amount of information about incidents at DEA offices is clearly attributable to the report being based on canvassing of DEA offices and only had "additional information received from several federal law enforcement agencies". There is no suggestion or evidence that these agencies conducted any kind of investigation themselves.

From the report: "One was the son of a two-star general, one served as the bodyguard to the head of the Israeli army".

Sure, maybe they were both hired by a drug ring. Funny thing, though the DEA report comments on criminal records of sveral suspects (marijuana possession, passport irregularities, etc.) yet nowhere in this report by the DEA (who presumably now something about this kind of stuff) is there any mention of a link between any of the members and organised crime. Nor do their criminal records indicate anything to suggest a background in organised crime or drug smuggling/dealing.

Quoted from the other link you provided:

"However, Fox's unexplained yanking the series is worth noting. Except for a few comments on the Net, there has been no mainline media follow-up on the reason for the yank. If Fox found that the reports are in error, that is the sort of thing that usually brings heat from competitors. If the withdrawal was due to government intervention that would indeed be news, but hardly unprecedented these days. If the yank was due to private intervention that too would be worth learning about -- who, when, why."

It then shows comments from Ronald Rivest, apparently a premier US cryptographer and security scientist, including:

"I found the following four-part report by Carl Cameron rather shocking.....Why should we be freely giving to Israeli corporations information (call records, CALEA information) that requires court orders to obtain in this country? Such information is obviously sensitive, and the well-motivated efforts to strengthen and protect our national infrastructure should reasonably include mandating that such information not be routinely handled by any foreign entities.....A more recent story indicates that the compromise was probably severe; criminals were escaping detection because of the compromise.....This vindicates concerns many of us have expressed over the years about creating single points of failure in wiretapping systems (e.g. the vulnerability of key escrow, etc.). Of course, in this case the vulnerability was intentionally created, it seems, by giving critical capabilities to foreign entities..."

And, once again, we get to the main point. Its not about whether some guys were dancing. Or whether there was a link to 9/11. There is no need (or desire on my part) to make accusations that there WAS an illegal intelligence op being conducted either by the art students, Moving systems, the street vendors or with the tapping of White House phone lines. There is evidence to show that such operations were either plausible or probable and this should have been enough to have warranted serious media scrutiny

As a matter of US national security, intelligence operations carried out by any state within America represent a threat to US intelligence. The media's failure to highlight these issues is as serious a problem. A dogged determination to downplay the significance of these issues by many of the posters here strikes me as either unwillingness to move from entrenched original positions or personal pro-Israel bias. The evidence presented thus far (which is certainly open to future refutation) simply does not support any other fair and rational analysis. Certainly it shows that curiousity to further investigate such issues is in no way justifiable reason for labelling someone a neo-Nazi or anti-semite.

My expectation for actual rational analysis or possible acceptance of these points by the posters initially down-playing the significance of Israeli spying remains quite low.

[funk de fino]

Mr B

The nature of the individuals conduct, combined with intelligence and historical information regarding past incidents involving Israeli Organized Crime, leads IS to believe that these incidents may well be an organized intelligence gathering activity."

Your comprehension of what this statement means leaves a lot to be desired.

[Spud1k]

And, once again, we get to the main point. Its not about whether some guys were dancing. Or whether there was a link to 9/11.

Funny, that's what the OP was talking about. My issue was with those points and nothing else.

My expectation for actual rational analysis or possible acceptance of these points by the posters initially down-playing the significance of Israeli spying remains quite low.

I refuse to get embroiled in any of that. The shady world of espionage (be it involving countries, criminal groups or companies) lends itself to so much speculation on the part of the man on the street, there is no way your argument can be proved or disproved once you lose sight of the shore.

As for whether the press doesn't criticise Israel enough, I don't dispute that that is your opinion. But at the end of the day, there is only so much they can report that relies on presumptions and speculations, which is all you've really posted so far.

[Brannagyn]

@fundefino:

Your ability to contribute anything of worth to the thread leaves a lot to be desired. Please elucidate your proto-criticism.

The shady world of espionage (be it involving countries, criminal groups or companies) lends itself to so much speculation on the part of the man on the street, there is no way your argument can be proved or disproved once you lose sight of the shore.

I think you'll find speculation frequently leads to investigation, this in turn has been known to uncover the odd hard fact.

at the end of the day, there is only so much they can report that relies on presumptions and speculations, which is all you've really posted so far.

Which is why they should not be relying upon speculation and actually investigating these issues.

If I left it there I know someone would jump in with the old "Absence of evidence" bit. All that would show is that they haven't perused the links. There is ample evidence that the US media does not cover these issues to the same extent or depth as even Israel's major papers.

As for whether the press doesn't criticise Israel enough.

As if that was the question. I dont remember asking for op-ed pieces, it a matter of reporting, or failing to report, news.

[Spud1k]

Which is why they should not be relying upon speculation and actually investigating these issues.


And can you prove that they're not? The trouble with that logic is that if someone investigates something and doesn't find anything, it doesn't get reported. So more times than not, the absence of any coverage on a subject means that there isn't anything there worth reporting.

As if that was the question. I dont remember asking for op-ed pieces, it a matter of reporting, or failing to report, news.

What does and doesn't constitute news is entirely subjective, so opinions is all you'll get I'm afraid.

[funk de fino]

@fundefino:

Your ability to contribute anything of worth to the thread leaves a lot to be desired. Please elucidate your proto-criticism.

Your use of flamboyant vocabulary to try and look intelligent is betrayed by the fact you cannot even understand the statement.

The statement says nothing about military or governmental intelligence gathering or state sponsored spying as you are trying to latch onto or insinuate.

It is very specific in what it is saying about the "israelis".

I will post the important words again for you - "Israeli Organized Crime"

[Jonnyclueless]

I'm sorry, can someone please remind us what these guys did? I am missing the crime here.

Bump

I would love an answer from Brannagyn.

[Brannagyn]

First you would have to clarify who you mean by "these guys". I'll assume though that you mean the five arrested in New York and that you also mean apart from the 'visa violations'. Unsurprisingly the information is there for you in the thread and its links.

At least two of the five were determined to be Mossad agents operating an intelligence operation on US soil. I think you'll find that espionage itself is a crime. Look up the Act of 1917. Even on the passport violations alone they could probably have been charged under the act if desired, the primary charge would almost certainly have fallen under collecting and transmitting to a foreign power information related to U.S. national defense. This thread contains several other examples of Israeli intelligence operations (there are many more, Jane's Intelligence Digest 10th May 2002 has a good overview of some older ones) and has argued (as do Jane's and other previously linked sources) that the US media fails to highlight these incidents.

You perhaps think this is suitable? Would I be right in saying that your view is "No one was charged with a crime so whats the big deal?"

Do you sincerely fail to grasp the implications?

@funkefino: You highlight "Israeli Organized Crime" as though it has some relevance beyond the DEA's piror experience with it. They state that they used this experience to evaluate the group in question. As far as Im aware, nowhere in the report do they link the group to organized crime. On top of this there is no evidence of history with or connection to organized crime by the people investigated. In contrast the majority of them served in intelligence or intelligence related units and they targeted a wide variety of instillations and agencies (including military ones) that would have no direct relation to drug enforcement. There is no clear reason for them to have done this is gaining information on drug interdiction was their goal, unneccesarily increasing the scope of a collection operation simply increases the likelihood of attracting attention.

Im quite open to the possibility it was an Israeli criminal group but what is there to indicate this? Other than the fact that the DEA used experience with such groups to determine the type of operation taking place, not its source.

From one of the links above that nobody seems to read:

"US Secret Service Special Agent in Charge Michael James disclosed that his office was in receipt of a Counter terrorism Advisory Report regarding suspicious activities around Federal buildings that related to Israeli students."

Had this report (dealing with the exact same subject) been used as the reference, the fact that it was a counter-terrorism report, and undoubtedly would have used the USSS experience dealing with terrorism issues, would by no means have made the group involved terrorists. Unless we follow your logic.

[Mince]

...please make sure that he is anti-semetic rather than simply anti-Zionist. There's a world of difference...


Yeah. And there's also a difference between blacks and (that other word), right?

What happened to the world? We used to have Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, etc.

Now we have creatures distinguishing their racism.

[Brannagyn]

Now we have creatures distinguishing their racism.

Once again this forum demonstrates its disconnect with the subtitle at the top of the page...

Not simply with your failure to recognise zionism as a political ideology but also with your willingness to accuse people of racism of whom you know next to nothing (not least their racial identity).

Critical thinking and friendly, eh?

[Jonnyclueless]

First you would have to clarify who you mean by "these guys". I'll assume though that you mean the five arrested in New York and that you also mean apart from the 'visa violations'. Unsurprisingly the information is there for you in the thread and its links.

At least two of the five were determined to be Mossad agents operating an intelligence operation on US soil. I think you'll find that espionage itself is a crime. Look up the Act of 1917. Even on the passport violations alone they could probably have been charged under the act if desired, the primary charge would almost certainly have fallen under collecting and transmitting to a foreign power information related to U.S. national defense. This thread contains several other examples of Israeli intelligence operations (there are many more, Jane's Intelligence Digest 10th May 2002 has a good overview of some older ones) and has argued (as do Jane's and other previously linked sources) that the US media fails to highlight these incidents.

You perhaps think this is suitable? Would I be right in saying that your view is "No one was charged with a crime so whats the big deal?"

Do you sincerely fail to grasp the implications?

@funkefino: You highlight "Israeli Organized Crime" as though it has some relevance beyond the DEA's piror experience with it. They state that they used this experience to evaluate the group in question. As far as Im aware, nowhere in the report do they link the group to organized crime. On top of this there is no evidence of history with or connection to organized crime by the people investigated. In contrast the majority of them served in intelligence or intelligence related units and they targeted a wide variety of instillations and agencies (including military ones) that would have no direct relation to drug enforcement. There is no clear reason for them to have done this is gaining information on drug interdiction was their goal, unneccesarily increasing the scope of a collection operation simply increases the likelihood of attracting attention.

Im quite open to the possibility it was an Israeli criminal group but what is there to indicate this? Other than the fact that the DEA used experience with such groups to determine the type of operation taking place, not its source.

From one of the links above that nobody seems to read:

"US Secret Service Special Agent in Charge Michael James disclosed that his office was in receipt of a Counter terrorism Advisory Report regarding suspicious activities around Federal buildings that related to Israeli students."

Had this report (dealing with the exact same subject) been used as the reference, the fact that it was a counter-terrorism report, and undoubtedly would have used the USSS experience dealing with terrorism issues, would by no means have made the group involved terrorists. Unless we follow your logic.

Having been in Mossad does not constitute espionage. And wow, visa violations. Looks like you cracked the case wide open there eh? What are these implications? Why is this even a subject on a 9/11 conspiracy forum? Where's the conspiracy, where's the real crime? Many people are arrested on overstaying their visas. What does this have to do with 9/11 or conspiracy theories?

If you have some kind of conspiracy here, then please share with us. Otherwise making baseless conjecture and speculation is not very helpful.

[Brannagyn]

Without anyone adding any actual argument or new information there's nothing further for me to contribute to this thread. Anyone with an open mind on the subject can easily determine their opinion based on the current contents of the thread. Those desperate to hold on to preconceived views to safeguard delicate egos (feel free to include me in this group if you honestly think it appropriate) are not going to have their opinions altered by further discussion.

I've actually learnt quite a bit from looking into the topic. I hope others (those of us who are not omniscient at least) can say the same.

[MaGZ]

Having been in Mossad does not constitute espionage. And wow, visa violations. Looks like you cracked the case wide open there eh? What are these implications? Why is this even a subject on a 9/11 conspiracy forum? Where's the conspiracy, where's the real crime? Many people are arrested on overstaying their visas. What does this have to do with 9/11 or conspiracy theories?


The four dancing Israelis are just the tip of the iceberg. As was stated previously the Israeli Art Student mystery was just that until more pieces of the puzzle were put together after 9/11. All federal institutions were told to look out for the Art Students and if they appear at you offices file a report and sent it in to the DEA. 120 or more of these Art Students were identified and their addresses were noted by the FBI.

After 9/11 the FBI began tracing the trial of the hijackers and most of that investigation was in Florida. A some point in time a FBI agent noticed the addresses of the Art Students and the hijackers were close by. The addresses were likely fed into a computer and a correlation appeared. Local agents of the FBI then realized the Art Student Mossad operation were monitoring the hijackers. These local agents took the story to Carl Cameron of Fox news.

That’s the conspiracy connection.

[SDC]

OK, just so everyone remembers that Magz's posts consist almost entirely of lies. Clear?

[dudalb]

While we're on the subject, does Larry Silverstein's ethnicity have any bearing on your interpretation of his motives in this instance?

Dave

Is the Pope Catholic?

[dudalb]

OK, just so everyone remembers that Magz's posts consist almost entirely of lies. Clear?


Fixed that for you.

[MaGZ]

You can find more on the Israeli Mossad operation in this article.

The Anthrax Mystery; Solved
http://web.archive.org/web/20050211195615/www.anthraxattacks.net/the-anthrax-mystery-solved.htm


In March 2001, an alert was issued by the National Counterintelligence Executive, a branch of the CIA, warning federal employees to be aware of “suspicious visitors to federal facilities.” There had been reports of Middle Eastern persons showing up at government buildings—many of them DEA offices—claiming to be Israeli art students. At first it was thought the Israeli art students might be Arab terrorists planning an attack. However, it later turned out the art students were indeed Israelis.

The Israelis would appear unannounced at various government offices or at the homes of federal officials. They would falsely identify themselves as art students from the University of Jerusalem or Bazala Academy in Israel and attempt to sell their artwork on canvas. Astute government employees soon discovered the Israelis were more interested in obtaining information than in selling artwork. The students, in the course of their conversations, would ask for business cards and inquire about the officials’ work activities and those of their associates. At times, the Israelis were found breaching government entrances through back doors and parking garages. Others appeared at government offices that were hidden or undisclosed to the local community. Some were found with diagrams of government buildings showing entrances and offices of various employees—indicating prior surveillance. Others were found with photographs of government agents. One Israeli had a computer printout with the heading “DEA groups.”

[Mince]

Once again this forum demonstrates its disconnect with the subtitle at the top of the page...

Not simply with your failure to recognise zionism as a political ideology but also with your willingness to accuse people of racism of whom you know next to nothing (not least their racial identity).

Critical thinking and friendly, eh?


You don't have to rationalize your racism to me. In fact, I don't care to hear it. You've already rationalized it to yourself. Great. Carry on.

But I'd slow down drinking your Alex Jones Kool-Aid. You drink it too fast and you might choke.

[MaGZ]

Useful sources

http://web.archive.org/web/20050211195505/www.anthraxattacks.net/the-anthax-mystery-solved-sources.htm

Israeli opportunity:
“Suspicious Activities Involving Israeli Art Students at DEA Facilities,” www.cryptome.org (http://www.cryptome.org)
Fox News Series on Israeli Spying on US Telecommunications, by Carl Cameron, Fox News, www.cryptome.org (http://www.cryptome.org)
“Profiting From Terror? Worldwide probe of surge in trades days before attack,” by James Toedtman and Charles V. Zehren, Newsday, September 19, 2001.
“Odigo says workers were warned of attack,” by Yuval Dror, Haaretz, Sept 26, 2001.
“Internet Firm Received Message Predicting Terror Attacks in U.S.” Deutsche Presse-Agentur, September 26, 2001.
“Odigo Clarifies Attack Messages,” Newsbytes (Washington Post), September 28, 2001.
“Suspicious profits sit uncollected, Airlines investors seem to be lying low,” by Christian Berthelsen and Scott Winokur, San Francisco Chronicle, September 29, 2001.
“Hijacker ‘given anthrax flask by Iraqi agent,’” by Daniel McGrory, The London Times, October 27, 2001.
“FBI Investigates Message Warning,” by Chris Griffith, Courier Mail (Brisbane, Australia), November 20, 2001.
“An Enigma: Vast Israeli Spy Network Dismantled in the US,” by Sylvain Cypel, Le Monde, March 5, 2002.
“Israelis ‘spied on al-Qa’ida in America,’” by John Lichfield, The Independent (U.K.), March 6, 2002.
“Update: The spies who came in from the art sale,” by John Sugg, Atlanta Creative Loafing, March 20, 2002.
“The Israeli ‘art student’ mystery,” by Christopher Ketcham, Salon.com, May 7, 2002.
“Spies, or students? Were the Israelis just trying to sell their paintings, or agents in a massive espionage ring?” by Nathan Guttman, Haaretz, May 13, 2002.
“Art, Espionage and Cover Ups,” by Alan Simpson, Spies Magazine, July 11, 2002.
“Next Door to Mohammed Atta, Israeli agents were living in Florida and tailing the future death pilots – until their cover was blown,” by Oliver Schrom, Die Zeit, October 14, 2002.
“More Missing Intelligence,” by Robert Dreyfuss, The Nation, July 7, 2003.
“The spies who pushed for war,” by Julian Borger, The Guardian (U.K.), July 17, 2003.

[MaGZ]

Also,

The Israeli Art Student Files

http://antiwar.com/israeli-files.php

[Mince]

I've actually learnt quite a bit from looking into the topic. I hope others (those of us who are not omniscient at least) can say the same.


By "looking into the topic" you mean "Google searching the topic."

It's on the internet so it must be true. How sad. When you can tell me you've "looked into" the topic without using your keyboard, I might...might...give your opinions some weight. Until then, you're just another internet hack whose extensive and exhaustive research involves, exclusively, the Alex Jones radio show, PrisonPlanet and Google searches.

[Mince]

It's really [rule10]ing disturbing how so many people will believe something because it's posted on a webpage.

[MaGZ]

Click on Art, Espionage and Cover-ups

http://nucnews.net/nucnews/2002nn/0207nn/020711nn.htm#361

[Arus808]

why are you guys even bothering in entertaining a known racist?

[Jonnyclueless]

Without anyone adding any actual argument or new information there's nothing further for me to contribute to this thread. Anyone with an open mind on the subject can easily determine their opinion based on the current contents of the thread. Those desperate to hold on to preconceived views to safeguard delicate egos (feel free to include me in this group if you honestly think it appropriate) are not going to have their opinions altered by further discussion.

I've actually learnt quite a bit from looking into the topic. I hope others (those of us who are not omniscient at least) can say the same.

In other words when asked for anything beyond wild conjecture, you can't add anything. And the reason for the conjecture? Right, they're Jews.

[Jonnyclueless]

MagZ, can you clarify the crimes that these jews committed? Enough with the conjecture, just point out the crimes committed.

[Homeland Insurgency]

Well there was a story on 9/11 about a van on the George Washington Bridge and a guy dressed as a Sheik mixing something in the back. It was reported to the Jersey City police and there is a transcript somewhere of the phone call to the police. The phone call was real but just sounds like some kind of prank.

Then there is the story of the dancing Israelis who were picked up for their suspicious behavior and held for two months then deported. Their boss at the moving company then just closed doors picked up and left the country. That all happened. What’s not true is that they were dressed like Arabs. That was just probably people mixing them up with the first report about the guy dressed as a sheik on the bridge because both reports came from Jersey City.

Then there is the Carl Cameron report from Fox News about the Israeli spy ring. Art students trying to gain access to government buildings. I think 60 rounded up before 9/11 and then another 200 after? Carl Cameron then alluded to a company based in Israel that did some kind of phone surveillance in the states for police departments trying to track drug dealers. The police were suspicious that the company was infiltrated by an Israeli drug ring that dealed in ecstasy and was using the surveillance to track and keep one step ahead of the police. This company evidently had all access to every phone call in the states. The 9/11 connection is that some believe this is how the Israeli government knew of the 9/11 attacks before they happened by listening in on the hijackers phone calls. It is thought that maybe Israel then tried to warn the US but couldn’t be specific about how much they knew because then they would have to tell just how they knew.

Then of course there is the AIPAC spy scandal.

[Jonnyclueless]

Yeah, a company that had access to all phone calls in the US. If you're going to lie and make stuff up, try to keep it reasonable and not absurd.

You know when you list conjecture in quantity, it doesn't make the conjecture any more valid.

[Spud1k]

Yeesh. I've just remembered why I don't normally join threads that involve the 'blame the Jew' conspiracy theories. Over four score posts later and we've just had an avalanche of unsubstantiated hyperbole on why Israel really is out to get us and trying to draw a line between anti-Semetism and anti-Zionism (an extremely fuzzy line at its absolute best IMO).

There was ample opportunity for people to present evidence that the dancing Israelis were somehow involved in 9/11 and we got nothing. That in itself should serve as an answer to the OP. And with that, I'm unsubbing.

[Caustic Logic]

Lots of conjecture, reported oddities, etc... all of this really doesn't necc. mean anything, folks. The OP was about one specific point, which has been covered pretty well, with others hinted at, like those mentioned here, repeatedly, and in the service of reaching out to a neo-Nazi-influenced friend.

If you insist on arguing in favor of the type of paranoia this friend is said to be under, please at least do so in a constructive way reflecting this context. So far it's starting to look like the answer to the OPQ is to not let your friend read this thread. More of the same bad medicine, splashed everywhere. Why try so hard on ten vague myths, rather than follow up on a single point and consider all sides? Or something?

[Caustic Logic]

Yeah, a company that had access to all phone calls in the US. If you're going to lie and make stuff up, try to keep it reasonable and not absurd.

You know when you list conjecture in quantity, it doesn't make the conjecture any more valid.

Maybe not all calls... but to be fair, I think this story is at least partly true. True, it's Fox news, but the report was highly critical.Check the video if you haven't. I've heard it said the story was leaked to Cameron by Dick Cheney. Oddly enough. The story did help feed this line of CT thinking, it was mentioned in the piece, by Cameron, that they may have knew something about 9/11 because of this... IIRC.

[MaGZ]

MagZ, can you clarify the crimes that these jews committed? Enough with the conjecture, just point out the crimes committed.

Learning about the coming attacks on 9/11 and not informing the authorities.

[MaGZ]

Maybe not all calls... but to be fair, I think this story is at least partly true. True, it's Fox news, but the report was highly critical.Check the video if you haven't. I've heard it said the story was leaked to Cameron by Dick Cheney. Oddly enough. The story did help feed this line of CT thinking, it was mentioned in the piece, by Cameron, that they may have knew something about 9/11 because of this... IIRC.

According to the Cameron story the Israelis were not able to listen to the calls but were able to determine who was calling whom. The US Congress set things up where all directory assistance calls were routed thru Israel.