How does the current financial crisis affect the Challenge funds?

[alfaniner]

Seeing as the Challenge funds are currently in negotiable bonds at Goldman-Sachs, and hearing the news about all the bank buyouts, what does this mean for the million dollars? I know the Challenge will be retired soon, but I was wondering what would happen if the current value of the bonds falls below the million dollar level.

[petre]

Seeing as the Challenge funds are currently in negotiable bonds at Goldman-Sachs, and hearing the news about all the bank buyouts, what does this mean for the million dollars? I know the Challenge will be retired soon, but I was wondering what would happen if the current value of the bonds falls below the million dollar level.

Bonds aren't like stocks in that their values go up and down based on value estimated by buyers and sellers. They are more like a loan made to a financial entity in return for interest paid over time (similar to a savings account).

These are unusual economic times though, and since G-S has made the news recently I suppose one could suggest $900,000 of the prize money is at the risk of them becomming extremely illiquid forcing the FDIC to take over and possibly only making $100,000 of total available should the prize be awarded. Even given the recent news this seems unlikely (don't take my word for it though, feel free to research the matter more deeply and it may be more likely than I seem to claim here).

Perhaps the money would be safer in 10 seperate $100,000 FDIC insured accounts, but what 9 other banks would you put your money in if you were really concerned G-S would fold?

[Startz]

Bonds aren't like stocks in that their values go up and down based on value estimated by buyers and sellers. They are more like a loan made to a financial entity in return for interest paid over time (similar to a savings account).

These are unusual economic times though, and since G-S has made the news recently I suppose one could suggest $900,000 of the prize money is at the risk of them becomming extremely illiquid forcing the FDIC to take over and possibly only making $100,000 of total available should the prize be awarded. Even given the recent news this seems unlikely (don't take my word for it though, feel free to research the matter more deeply and it may be more likely than I seem to claim here).

Perhaps the money would be safer in 10 seperate $100,000 FDIC insured accounts, but what 9 other banks would you put your money in if you were really concerned G-S would fold?

Goldman Sachs isn't a bank. I believe none of the money is FDIC insured. The JREF statement doesn't give details of how the money is invested.

Unless the assets invested in are particularly vulnerable, the likelihood of the value falling below one million is very, very low. I wouldn't worry too much about someone winning the challenge and JREF having to delay payment.

[Moochie]

The Professor wins the MDC and has to accept an IOU. :)


M.

[Jeff Wagg]

The money is very conservatively invested, and is quite safe. There is more than enough in the account to pay the million should we need to.

[a_unique_person]

Not to imply any incompetence or deception on the part of Randi or the JREF, but many NGO's and Councils in Australia thought they had money invested in AAA rated funds, only to find the AAA rating was no longer AAA when the crises hit. These funds were supposed to be as conservative as you could get, these bodies were only allowed to invest in A rated or better, and they still lost money.

[rjh01]

"very conservatively invested, and is quite safe" This can only mean they are invested in the government. This is about the only organization that cannot go bankrupt. Anything less and money could be lost.

[The Professor]

The Professor wins the MDC and has to accept an IOU. :)


M.

YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I knew it :)

[biomorph]

According to BBC Radio 4 this morning in the UK Warren Buffett (sp?) is allegedly about to purchase $5bn of Goldman Sach shares, he probably thinks they are at least safe enough to invest in.

[The Professor]

Where are we on this? I started a discussion on this problem SEVEN WEEKS AGO before anyone else thought of it. And BEFORE the big slide!
Here is the thread... It starts about six posts down.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=267933&forum=251&start=150

With MY 401K looking like a 201K I wonder how much of the Million is left?
Is the MDC now the $768,899 Challenge?

[chillzero]

Jeff already answered you in your challenge thread, that there is more than $1m in the account.

[The Professor]

Where's the link that once existed as proof?

[Startz]

Where's the link that once existed as proof?

http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf

This is reachable in two-clicks from the JREF main web page.

[The Professor]

http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf

This is reachable in two-clicks from the JREF main web page.

Thanks!
This is an update from the previous one I believe, however a newer one would show the current trend in the market.
Is there a link to something "Current" since the market problems have arisen?

Inquiring minds want to know :)
:cool::cool:

[shadron]

Thanks!
This is an update from the previous one I believe, however a newer one would show the current trend in the market.
Is there a link to something "Current" since the market problems have arisen?

Inquiring minds want to know :)
:cool::cool:

It is dated Aug 31, 2008. I guess you'll have to wait until Thursday + smail-mail + website update time for the next, none of which entities owe you or me a favor. Think you can hold your britches for that long?

I predict the sum will have increased, my personal opinion. As stated above, while stocks are a share of a company's assets, a bond is a promissory note. It would seem that the former would be more stable (what company looses all it's assets, whereas companies default on loans more often than fail), but the opposite is the case. Defaulting on bonds will quickly put a company legally out of business via forced bankruptcy, while stock prices go up and down on whims. Further, if the company does fail, secured bond repayment comes well before final asset computation and reimbursement (even before owed employee compensation). Further, it looks like half of the binds are the USG's own.

You could, of course, read the pdf and do your own day-to-day estimates of the fund's current worth. It could be called the Unhatched Egg Study. Do have fun.

[The Professor]

Seeing as the Challenge funds are currently in negotiable bonds at Goldman-Sachs, and hearing the news about all the bank buyouts, what does this mean for the million dollars? I know the Challenge will be retired soon, but I was wondering what would happen if the current value of the bonds falls below the million dollar level.

No one has really answered this yet.

[fromdownunder]

TP, I can answer the question. If the current value of the Bonds falls below One Million Dollars, they will no longer be worth One Million Dollars.

What do I win?

Norm

[Thabiguy]

No one has really answered this yet.

Why do you keep making such false statements?

Of course this has been answered. Repeatedly.

Question #1: How did the current financial crisis affect the million dollars?
Answer:
I checked the challenge account at Goldman Sachs and it contains well over the amount required for the challenge.

Question #2: What happens if the value of the bonds falls below the million dollars?
Answer:
We guarantee the million, even if the account falls below a million. There's doesn't appear to much chance of that at this point. If you win, you get $1,000,000 from us, regardless of the amount in the account.

As anyone of sound mind can see, 100% of the OP has been answered.

[The Professor]

TP, I can answer the question. If the current value of the Bonds falls below One Million Dollars, they will no longer be worth One Million Dollars.

What do I win?

Norm

Just got a gig in The Land Down Under, so I will buy you ten Pints of Beer!!!!!
(When I get there this March) Congratulations. :) (I'm not kidding!)

I know Jeff says that the JREF will pay it but they can't if they don't HAVE IT. (Critical thinking here)
If it fall below $1,000,000 will they change the name or call the Carson estate?
:cool::cool:

[Azrael 5]

Just got a gig in The Land Down Under, so I will buy you ten Pints of Beer!!!!!
(When I get there this March) Congratulations. :) (I'm not kidding!)

I know Jeff says that the JREF will pay it but they can't if they don't HAVE IT. (Critical thinking here)
If it fall below $1,000,000 will they change the name or call the Carson estate?
:cool::cool:

*Takes deep breath*

Are you unable to comprehend simple statements.If the rules state you win a million dollars,that's what you win.
But all this is so premature for reasons I can't state in this thread. :)

[The Professor]

I can't win what you don't have :)
I can make rules all day that say whatever I want but that doesn't mean I've got a Million to back them up.
The rules don't create money that is already down the drain.

[chillzero]

Well, then, it's really just as well that they have more than enough, isn't it, as Jeff and others have already explained.

I don't really see the point in prolonging this thread.

[Modesty78]

I can't win what you don't have :)
I can make rules all day that say whatever I want but that doesn't mean I've got a Million to back them up.
The rules don't create money that is already down the drain.

Is it feasible that JREF has other money than the ones mentioned in the .pdf?

Is it also feasible, considering Jeff Wagg has apparently stated as much, that should aforementioned bonds become worth less than 1 million dollars, JREF will provide proof of other liquid assets?

The answers to both questions are obviously yes, and considering Jeff said as much, it it more than feasible, it is very likely. :)

[Brian-M]

I can't win what you don't have :)
I can make rules all day that say whatever I want but that doesn't mean I've got a Million to back them up.
The rules don't create money that is already down the drain.


If the unthinkable happens, and the bonds become worthless and you win the million dollars, then JREF still has to pay you the money, either in installments from it's income, or by declaring bankruptcy and selling it's assets.

Of course, the chances of the bonds becoming worth less than the million dollars is only slightly less improbable than you passing the preliminary test. :)

[The Professor]

Is it feasible that JREF has other money than the ones mentioned in the .pdf?

Is it also feasible, considering Jeff Wagg has apparently stated as much, that should aforementioned bonds become worth less than 1 million dollars, JREF will provide proof of other liquid assets?

The answers to both questions are obviously yes, and considering Jeff said as much, it it more than feasible, it is very likely. :)


All documentation of assets of the JREF must be available to the general public as they are a Not For Profit group. Hiding money is illegal. :)

[Azrael 5]

All documentation of assets of the JREF must be available to the general public as they are a Not For Profit group. Hiding money is illegal. :)

Well Im sure Randi can just run up a few bills if there's a short fall.

[The Professor]

Made me Laugh!!!!
:) :)

[shadron]

All documentation of assets of the JREF must be available to the general public as they are a Not For Profit group. Hiding money is illegal. :)

I would like to see this assertion backed up. I've done some looking in Wikipedia and at About.com, and can find no blanket disclosure requirement for non-profits, at either state or national levels.

[MattC]

Seeing as the Challenge funds are currently in negotiable bonds at Goldman-Sachs, and hearing the news about all the bank buyouts, what does this mean for the million dollars? I know the Challenge will be retired soon, but I was wondering what would happen if the current value of the bonds falls below the million dollar level.


No one has really answered this yet.


I am going to set out to do so and beg you or anyone else who still has questions when I am finished to either ask in this thread or PM me all questions that may remain.

I fear that the initial question has been perverted throughout most of the thread. Instead of asking "what will become of the money?" (which is answered about as well as can be expected by Jeff Wagg, while the JREF's documents showing that the money is invested at Goldman Sachs are public, Goldman Sachs' documentation of how exactly the money is invested is understandably not. Startz' opinion upon this matter is probably the most accurate one proffered by a non-employee, Startz is generally right when he speaks), it has become "can the money be paid if won?"

The answer to this question is determined by the nature of the contract stipulated between the JREF and the applicant. Viewing the rules of the application, it is perhaps most significant to note this:


I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 [One Million Dollars/US] to any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability under satisfactory observing conditions.


Mind you, this paragraph in no way specifies where the money will come from - considering the changeable nature of the markets (as we've witnessed, reversals can come quickly), this is the best way to go. Wisely the JREF has set up a primary account for the purpose of paying out this money (to put this more into the purview of most of the forum readers, a business that repairs computers would have an expense account set up labeled 'parts', whenever they buy new computer parts to repair computers with, they take the money from this account if it's possible) where the million can safely reside.

However, in no way does this lack of specificity in the nature of the payment serve as an out for the JREF to avoid paying - in fact, quite the opposite. If the contract stated, for example, that the million dollars would be paid from the JREF challenge account, then the applicant would be forced to take whatever amount happened to be in the account at the time of winning, regardless of whether or not it was less or more than a million (one could argue that a "million dollar challenge" that doesn't have a million dollars as a prize is a deliberate misdirection in court, but there are many viable defenses to this claim that could be used to reobtain most of that million if employed properly).

Indeed, according to the terms of the contract now, if the money in the prize account should be below one million dollars at the time of someone winning, then the JREF would be forced to make up the difference somehow - how they do this really isn't an issue so long as they do. As an example, say if the prize funds dipped to exactly $990,000 - ten thousand dollars less than the million required when the money was claimed. The JREF would then be required to make up the remaining ten thousand from any legal avenue - taking out a short-term loan, for example, for the ten thousand would certainly work. Selling office furniture or used computers would be another way to raise the money. The contract in its current state is more advantageous to the applicant than it is to the JREF for these reasons.


Goldman Sachs isn't a bank. I believe none of the money is FDIC insured. The JREF statement doesn't give details about how the money is invested.


The banking arm of Goldman Sachs (called, conveniently, "Goldman Sachs Bank") is a member of the FDIC (certification number 57485), but the money is not held at Goldman Sachs Bank so far as I can see, so no it is not FDIC-insured. FDIC regulations only insure quote-unquote "deposit accounts", a complete list of which can be found at http://www.fdic.gov/consumers/consumer/information/fdiciorn.html along with a list of what they do not insure, also described at the same convenient address. As the JREF's money is in bond form, it would not qualify to be insured by the FDIC at all.

How the money is invested is covered in the statement in a very general form (under the heading "Portfolio Asset Allocation"), but information on how the money is currently being managed (as the JREF has effectively subcontracted Goldman Sachs to do this for them) is proprietary to Goldman Sachs and not to the JREF. Getting this information from Goldman Sachs would most probably require a subpoena from a judge, which would require you to prove that the information was both necessary and relevant.


I would like to see this assertion backed up.


It's enforced through the IRS, hence why neither Wikipedia nor About knew much about it. Try searching for "transparency" instead of "disclosure", it got me closer to the crux of the matter. Essentially, it's the IRS making public the 990 forms of non-profit organizations. I think both sites you mentioned got confused by the word "disclosure", it seems to imply that the NPO itself was disclosing this information (many of them do upon qualified request) instead of the IRS.

I was able to find the JREF's 990 form through GuideStar for the 2007 year, it clearly lists and defines the financial status of the JREF throughout the 2007 year. The information is there for those desiring to find it.

------------------------------

If there are any further questions, please leave them in the thread or shoot them to me via PM.

~ MattC

[The Professor]

I would like to see this assertion backed up. I've done some looking in Wikipedia and at About.com, and can find no blanket disclosure requirement for non-profits, at either state or national levels.

If either of you'd view tha DragonCon exposure video you would have seen Randi say that ALL of his records are open to the public. It's a statement he likes to make and in fact a Not for Profit can NOT have secret books!

Thanks for all of the verification :)
:cool::cool:

[Pantaz]

If either of you'd view tha DragonCon exposure video you would have seen Randi say that ALL of his records are open to the public. It's a statement he likes to make and in fact a Not for Profit can NOT have secret books!

Thanks for all of the verification

Have you been denied access to any records?

[The Professor]

Have you been denied access to any records?

Not yet :)
But I do want to know if it's still the Million Dollar Challenge (Don't want to bounce any checks :) )
Someone mentioned that there might be a new "Statement' tomorrow. Am I correct in this?

[Pantaz]

You appear to have some kind of selective reading comprehension difficulty. Jeff Wagg himself has twice answered the question of the status of the MDC funds:
The money is very conservatively invested, and is quite safe. There is more than enough in the account to pay the million should we need to.

For the record, I checked the challenge account at Goldman Sachs and it contains well over the amount required for the challenge.

Why do you continue to infer all manner of wrong-doing by the JREF and James Randi?

[steenkh]

Not yet :)
But I do want to know if it's still the Million Dollar Challenge (Don't want to bounce any checks :) )
Someone mentioned that there might be a new "Statement' tomorrow. Am I correct in this?
Why does this actually bother you? Winning the Million Dollar Challenge will in any case catapult you to untold heights of fame with all the profit-earning opportunities you can imagine! You could probably make a fortune just out being the one who busted the JREF and James Randi financially, even if you only got a fragment of the promised prize sum.

[DevilsAdvocate]

But I do want to know if it's still the Million Dollar Challenge.It is. Jeff confirmed that. And the year is still 2008. And the sun is still warm. And two is still less than four.

You will be notified, or you can easily check, if any of these things have changed.

Sit back. Relax. Dream about a million dollars. Kick off your shoes. Work up a protocol. :cool:

[The Professor]

It is. Jeff confirmed that. And the year is still 2008. And the sun is still warm. And two is still less than four.

You will be notified, or you can easily check, if any of these things have changed.

Sit back. Relax. Dream about a million dollars. Kick off your shoes. Work up a protocol. :cool:

I will take your advice and grab some Sailor Jerry's Rum!!!!!
.... And Dream of Treasure here in the Florida Sunshine :)

BTW ...I have a protocol. I always have.
How did anyone miss it? Perhaps no one is actually reading what I've written?
I think that most have spent so much time on the "bashing" that they've missed what has been said.
:cool::cool:

[jenski]

Originally Posted by Pantaz
Have you been denied access to any records?


Not yet :)
But I do want to know if it's still the Million Dollar Challenge (Don't want to bounce any checks :) )
Someone mentioned that there might be a new "Statement' tomorrow. Am I correct in this?


Not yet as in your request has not been denied or Not yet as in you haven't actually asked for them?

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by Pantaz
Have you been denied access to any records?





Not yet as in your request has not been denied or Not yet as in you haven't actually asked for them?

I have received no records yet. OK? :)

I was told that TODAY would be the day they posted something current on the JREF Forum to show that they still had the money.
I don't see it?

[Chris H]

I think you're concerning yourself with something that is not particularly relevant. One has to produce evidence of a paranormal ability or event to be awarded the million dollars. You are capable of neither, so it is of no concern to you.

Chris

[MattC]

I have received no records yet. OK? :)

Ask (Google) and ye shall receive, my son. Wait, and thy time shall pass thee by.

~ Matt

[MattC]

I'm also getting rather annoyed, as I am sure others are, of repeatedly answering your questions time and time again, Mr. Koenig.

Rule #1 of the challenge application you signed quite clearly states that you will obtain one million dollars in the event of you winning the challenge. I fail to see why you have any further questions upon this matter.

~ MattC

[shadron]

I have received no records yet. OK? :)

I was told that TODAY would be the day they posted something current on the JREF Forum to show that they still had the money.
I don't see it?

If you are referring to my posting #15 as being where "you were told...", then go read it again. It says, " I guess you'll have to wait until Thursday + smail-mail + website update time for the next". That is assuming that GS releases its accountings on a monthly basis, which I don't know for a fact. I also don't know the length of the above-mentioned snail-mail interval nor of the website update time. So you're on your own.

Besides, I'm certainly no content-expert around here. I only know a little bit about a lot of things, which may or may not be relevant to you. Your judgement needs to fill the gap here. If you want to hold me responsible for no new statement today, why then, go right ahead. I'll welcome it.

[shadron]

I will take your advice and grab some Sailor Jerry's Rum!!!!!
.... And Dream of Treasure here in the Florida Sunshine :)

BTW ...I have a protocol. I always have.
How did anyone miss it? Perhaps no one is actually reading what I've written?

:cool::cool:

The protocol in question is one which you and JREF can agree upon as the basis for a contract specifying the test. Among its characteristics will be iron-clad pass/fail decision points in plain evidence requiring no judgements be made by observers, and adjusted so that false-positive errors will have vanishingly small probabilities. Any old protocol (namely one not agreed to by JREF) won't get you where you want to go. The meeting of the minds (the essence of any contract) must be pursued in good faith, and it doesn't sound to me as if that is happening.

This topic should be in the proper thread, not here.

I think that most have spent so much time on the "bashing" that they've missed what has been said.

Ummmmm... You don't seem to be much abashed.

[Azrael 5]

I don't see the problem here.You sign a contract that states you win a million dollars....then you win a million dollars.End of subject.

But as Guerilla magic stated,you have zero chance of winning anyway so don't worry about it.

[The Professor]

I'm also getting rather annoyed, as I am sure others are, of repeatedly answering your questions time and time again, Mr. Koenig.

Rule #1 of the challenge application you signed quite clearly states that you will obtain one million dollars in the event of you winning the challenge. I fail to see why you have any further questions upon this matter.

~ MattC

Please turn on CNN or try to get out a little more.
Do you have a 401K? What percentage have you lost?
Anyone can write a contract for any sum, but if the market crashes and they don't have it, then where is the cash coming from.
Just tell me Carson Estate will pick up the difference and I will be happy :)

[The Professor]

If you are referring to my posting #15 as being where "you were told...", then go read it again. It says, " I guess you'll have to wait until Thursday + smail-mail + website update time for the next". That is assuming that GS releases its accountings on a monthly basis, which I don't know for a fact. I also don't know the length of the above-mentioned snail-mail interval nor of the website update time. So you're on your own.

Besides, I'm certainly no content-expert around here. I only know a little bit about a lot of things, which may or may not be relevant to you. Your judgement needs to fill the gap here. If you want to hold me responsible for no new statement today, why then, go right ahead. I'll welcome it.

Please forgive me. I thought that you knew what you were talking about. Silly me!

[jenski]

I have received no records yet. OK? :)

I was told that TODAY would be the day they posted something current on the JREF Forum to show that they still had the money.
I don't see it?

So you haven't actually requested them. Is this what you'd generally refer to as 'blowing smoke?'

[MattC]

Please turn on CNN or try to get out a little more.
Do you have a 401K? What percentage have you lost?
Anyone can write a contract for any sum, but if the market crashes and they don't have it, then where is the cash coming from.
Just tell me Carson Estate will pick up the difference and I will be happy :)

Please comprehend the terms and meaning of a contract, preferably before you sign it.

I again bid you to read the first rule of the application you signed and had notarized. I will again post it here purely to give you some brief idea:


I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 [One Million Dollars/US] to any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability under satisfactory observing conditions. Such demonstration must take place under the following rules and limitations:

This is a legally binding contract between two parties. It cannot be broken under grounds of "the market sucks so sorry". Whatever I may have lost is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, unless you really think I have some stake in paying this million out to you.

It seems more and more that you're willingly refusing to consider answers provided in light of maintaining this fantasy world you live in. That's your prerogative, not mine, but I will not have you lambasting me in such a poor fashion when you so clearly have not bothered to read a damn thing.

Just for you, I'll helpfully repost my answer to your question of "where is the cash coming from" simply because I like you a lot (don't put too much stake in that):


Indeed, according to the terms of the contract now, if the money in the prize account should be below one million dollars at the time of someone winning, then the JREF would be forced to make up the difference somehow - how they do this really isn't an issue so long as they do. As an example, say if the prize funds dipped to exactly $990,000 - ten thousand dollars less than the million required when the money was claimed. The JREF would then be required to make up the remaining ten thousand from any legal avenue - taking out a short-term loan, for example, for the ten thousand would certainly work. Selling office furniture or used computers would be another way to raise the money. The contract in its current state is more advantageous to the applicant than it is to the JREF for these reasons.

I have, after consultation with my own spirits, carefully bolded several parts of the quote in the attempt to focus your rather sporadic attention to the legal issue at hand, not your erratic and demonstratedly-irrational fears.

~ Matt

[shadron]

Please forgive me. I thought that you knew what you were talking about. Silly me!

Ah, yes, this is a forum. If you want the troofers, their three doors down on the right. The polygraphers union is on the left. Good day.

[RoboTimbo]

Please turn on CNN or try to get out a little more.
Do you have a 401K? What percentage have you lost?
Anyone can write a contract for any sum, but if the market crashes and they don't have it, then where is the cash coming from.
Just tell me Carson Estate will pick up the difference and I will be happy :)

Any further rants about the solvency of the MDC prize money should belong in the Conspiracy Theory forum.

Soon to be followed by nominations to the Stundies :).

[Moochie]

Any further rants about the solvency of the MDC prize money should belong in the Conspiracy Theory forum.

Soon to be followed by nominations to the Stundies :).


I think TP may be the Sarah Palin of the JREF.


M.

[alfaniner]

Instead of asking "what will become of the money?" ... it has become "can the money be paid if won?"
~ MattC

The initial intent of the OP was actually both, but thanks for the detailed explanation. I didn't intend for this to become another ping-pong event for The Professor.

[The Professor]

Now with another 800 Point Drop will you all still pretend my question is invalid?

Now would be a great time for a critical thinker to step up and prove me wrong!

[MattC]

I'm not honestly sure what I can do for you, Mr. Koenig, if you continue to insist upon refusing to read anything I've said in this thread.

I request, quite simply, that you now either put up or shut up - respond my post earlier in the thread explaining, in detail, why the state of the market does not matter in this regard with some concrete proof that I am in error in what I say, or stop posting comments requesting explanations you have already gotten. It is disrespectful to me personally and everyone else who has ever attempted to explain anything to you.

Willingly disregarding or refusing to read explanations proffered are not actions typical of people deserving of the title "professor". It implies knowledge and wisdom - two things you very clearly seem to lack.

~ MattC

(ps: :cool::cool:)

[Rodibidably]

Now with another 800 Point Drop will you all still pretend my question is invalid?

Now would be a great time for a critical thinker to step up and prove me wrong!
For all we know it's 100% invested in Haliburton and Exxon-Mobil. It could be worth 10mil by now if that's the case...

Just because the DOW drops, does not imply that all investments drop equally. The DOW is an indication of certain specific stocks and bonds, but it says nothing about the particular investments of the JREF or any other person or group.

You have been told multiple times by a represntative fo the JREF that the account contains enough $ to cover the MDC.

You have not (as far as I am aware) requested an updated statement from the JREF.
And you have not (as far as I am aware) actually applied for the MDC.

So I fail to see any point in your continued posts on this (or any other) thread.

[chillzero]

And you have not (as far as I am aware) actually applied for the MDC.


He has. That discussion is being held here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=121157

[a_unique_person]

Just got a gig in The Land Down Under, so I will buy you ten Pints of Beer!!!!!
(When I get there this March) Congratulations. :) (I'm not kidding!)

I know Jeff says that the JREF will pay it but they can't if they don't HAVE IT. (Critical thinking here)
If it fall below $1,000,000 will they change the name or call the Carson estate?
:cool::cool:

Recipe for rabbit soup.

First, catch your rabbit.:cool:

[William Smith]

Now with another 800 Point Drop will you all still pretend my question is invalid?

Now would be a great time for a critical thinker to step up and prove me wrong!

One can try, right? Well, here goes: Your question was valid.

The replies - including Jeff Wagg's - were also valid.



If you have further questions, do not hesitate to post them.

[RoboTimbo]

Now with another 800 Point Drop will you all still pretend my question is invalid?

Now would be a great time for a critical thinker to step up and prove me wrong!

Is there anything distinguishing this from other nutcase CTers? Someone who, when repeatedly shown the facts, continues to rant for their own private truth? Someone who, having access to the real facts, continues to foam at the mouth that it's all somehow a BIG LIE? Someone who, despite being spoonfed with proof, campaigns against the conspiracy against them?

It's all there, sheeple!

[Moochie]

Well, Professor..., Nah, fuggit.


M.

[eirik]

Now with another 800 Point Drop will you all still pretend my question is invalid?

Now would be a great time for a critical thinker to step up and prove me wrong!

No, your question is valid. You will get your money, I am confident of it. But I do have to say something, Dave. I'm a critical thinker. Don't snarkybash ME!!! I'm not so much DISAPPOiNTED and ANGRY at your your lack of :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool: in your post, as the fact that you didn't finish it up by screaming scream KOOL-AID!!! But I AM angry!!!!

Do the right thing, Herr Koenig, and show these CLOSED MINDED so-called "critical thinkers" that no matter how many :cool::cool::cool: it takes, you will never jump through the JREFs HOOPS, and certainly not produce a so-called "accepptable" protocol!!!! And BTW, where does the rules state that ithe protocol has to be acceptable, and if so, why is it not enough that they are acceptable by me?!!! Are you calling me a CHEATER?!!! It just gets me so ANGRY!!!!:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool :

[Cavemonster]

Now with another 800 Point Drop will you all still pretend my question is invalid?

Now would be a great time for a critical thinker to step up and prove me wrong!

Maybe I'm walking into this...

How does your suggestion differentiate the challenge from ANY other contract involving payment?

Most companies (building contractors etc) signing large contracts rely on business credit to make their payments. Business credit is much more on the ropes than invested cash.

If you're unwilling to enter into a contract with anyone who doesn't have all their money shoved under their mattress, I think you're limiting your options there.

Anyway, you can make paranormal predictions. You don't need the million bucks. All you have to do is make a prediction and invest heavily in the outcome, heck, make two just to hedge your bets. :):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleye s::p:p:p;););):crowded:

[The Professor]

The money is going down the drain.
All the squirming in the world hasn't proven me wrong.
I'd like to see a CURRENT STATEMENT that shows the Million still exists.
Where is it?

[RoboTimbo]

The money is going down the drain.
All the squirming in the world hasn't proven me wrong.
I'd like to see a CURRENT STATEMENT that shows the Million still exists.
Where is it?


All the squirming in the world hasn't gotten you back to the protocol thread either so why are you so concerned about funds that will never be paid to you?

Put on your tinfoil hat and take this kind of rant to the CT forum.

[MattC]

http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?npoId=523196

Balance Sheet, line 59:

Total Assets: 2,369,744

This can be further broken down into intangible assets not affected by stock market trends:

Land, building, and equipment basis: 518,786
Prepaid expenses and deferred charges: 1,032,443
Deferred Revenue: 380,407

It seems very clear then to state that they do have the money available.

Please again review what I've said about them being obligated to produce to you one million dollars if you win. The only person squirming about here is you, but that seems normal practice.

~ Matt

[Azrael 5]

He has started a thread on Magic Cafe today too about this topic.What members there can tell him that JREF can't is a mystery.
Edited for civility
By the time you get to the final challenge in 2 years time(if ever)Im sure your concerns can be brought up then.
Edited for civilitywhere is your protocol and team of writers and Uri Gellar and...and...and.... :)

[William Smith]

The money is going down the drain.
All the squirming in the world hasn't proven me wrong.
I'd like to see a CURRENT STATEMENT that shows the Million still exists.
Where is it?

You have been shown - and repeatedly so - that the JREF Prize will be paid out if necessary.

If you consider the JREF inadequate of reimboursing you for a demonstration of your claimed abilities, you might want to consider to take your show somewhere else.

Also, your doubts would not only have to be casted upon the JREF and Goldman-Sachs, but also on the entire judiciary system of the USA.



If you have truly paranormal powers - and why would anyone doubt you do - might these folks (http://nobelprize.org/) want to listen to your advances? Why would they not?

[MattC]

It also bears mentioning that posting on a forum is quite obviously the best way to get information one desires, so much so in fact that the other avenues available may be completely discarded, as this method is so clearly superior as to render all others superfluous to the mind of a critical thinker.

~ Matt

[The Professor]

Wake up Boys!!! I didn't start this thread. One of your own did. If it's not a valid question then yell at him!
I just don't want to get stuck with some unsellable property in Fort Lauderdale :)

[Chris H]

Mr Koenig, just incase you missed my post from October 3rd.


I think you're concerning yourself with something that is not particularly relevant. One has to produce evidence of a paranormal ability or event to be awarded the million dollars. You are capable of neither, so it is of no concern to you.

Chris

[rjh01]

The answer to the original question was answered in post 4 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4062494#post4062494). No new issues have been raised since then.

[Chris H]

Tom Cutts, a staff member over at The Magic Cafe had this to say on the topic, and I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here.


Even if the Mill was completely lost I have a rather strong hunch P&T would pony up. There is NO need to worry about a paultry million dolllars. Well, paltry to Vegas headliners that is.


The fact is that the million will be paid, on successful completion of the formal test. This is a none issue.

[RoboTimbo]

Wake up Boys!!! I didn't start this thread. One of your own did. If it's not a valid question then yell at him!
I just don't want to get stuck with some unsellable property in Fort Lauderdale :)


Since reading comprehension is so elusive for you, I'll boil it down to two simple things.

1. The million is there.
2. You won't get it.

Let me know if you need clarification on either of those things.

[catbasket]

Wake up Boys!!! I didn't start this thread. One of your own did. If it's not a valid question then yell at him!
I just don't want to get stuck with some unsellable property in Fort Lauderdale :)

The question has been answered. The fact that you are incapable of accepting the answer is not our fault.

Mutually acceptable protocol.
Pass preliminary test 31st October 2009.
Pass MDC test on 31st October 2010.

Maybe you should be more concerned about the state of the economy on 1st November 2010?

Oops, missed one, there's also the minor matter of having a genuine paranormal ability ... but of course even you know you don't have one.

[Azrael 5]

Since reading comprehension is so elusive for you, I'll boil it down to two simple things.

1. The million is there.
2. You won't get it.

Let me know if you need clarification on either of those things.

Succint and to the point as always.;)

Or should that be :)

[MattC]

Wake up Boys!!! I didn't start this thread. One of your own did. If it's not a valid question then yell at him!
I just don't want to get stuck with some unsellable property in Fort Lauderdale :)


The initial intent of the OP was actually both, but thanks for the detailed explanation. I didn't intend for this to become another ping-pong event for The Professor.

I got up at quarter to five.

~ Matt

[Azrael 5]

As The Professor is still babbling on this topic in Magic Cafe forum I wish to ask him direct.
Why is it so important to you to know wether the million is still there.You cannot do anything paranormal,you cannot even do a simple thing like put together a protocol.

At current speed,you would be on course for a chance at the million dollars in 2 years time.Its is not relevant today,tomorrow,next week or next year.

If you do not like this forget your application.Oh,hang on...... :)

Edit to supply his nonsensical post
Since the JREF calls it THE MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE ... it is up to them to show proof that they have Said Million Bucks http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/images/smiles/smile.gif
Where's the proof?

[Chris H]

It seems that despite being informed here directly that the million dollars is safe, Mr Koenig is insisting on spreading his misinformation and lies where he won't get pulled up for them. This post was made by "tommy" on The Magic Cafe.


On 2008-10-14 21:25, tommy wrote:
I have wrote to Randi to see if I can take his test. Every time I throw a penny in the Wishing Well my wish comes true.



Mr Koenig's response follows.


On 2008-10-15 08:50, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Well, you'll have to put a microchip IN the coin to make sure that it is the exact coin that makes your wish come true, and not one of the other coins.

You'll have to prove that the coincidence plays NO PART and that the wish can not come true except by the coin wish itself.

One of Randi's boys or a hired expert will have to be down in the well to make sure the coin is not Switched Out. (You'll have to pay him since Randi covers NO expenses)

The wish must get plenty of media Coverage and you will have to have Academics testify that you can do this BEFORE you get a chance to do it.

HOWEVER ... Opus has a point, and the JREF would not consider it a valid claim since it can't be tested.

(Whatever is left of the Million is safe :) )



Some people never learn...

Chris

[Ocelot]

Professor, I don't want to see you distracted from incontrovertably demonstrating your paranormal abilities. Whilst I'm a skeptic I have an open mind and such a demonstration would rock my world.

In the doubly unlikley event that (1) The JREF Challenge is passed byu the deadline and (2) Goldman Sachs fails amid other financial catastophes leaving James Randi and the JREF without the capability to fullfil their obligation to pay the £1m dollars, I will commit to donating $1,000 toward payment of the prize.

I have little doubt that you'd find many other supporters of the JREF who would step in to help fill any deficit in JREF funds rather than seeing this fine organisation sink. Pen and Teller have already been mentioned.

Furthermore the $1m would be paltry compared to the world shattering accomplishment that would allow you to rake in further fame, wealth and influence over the years. Such an accomplishment wold deserve the Nobel Prize being as it would turn the laws of physics on thier head. That's no mere shiney trinket, and a diploma from the King of Sweden, it's also a montary grant of 10 million Swedish Krona (about $1.5 million at todays exchange rate)

If you can scientifically demonstrate a paranormal ability beyond reasonable doubt there's so many excellent reasons for actually doing so that the $1m pales into insignificance.

I'd be genuinely excited at the prospect if it wasn't for your equivocation suggesting that you know you have no chance of passing the test.

[William Smith]

It seems that despite being informed here directly that the million dollars is safe, Mr Koenig is insisting on spreading his misinformation and lies where he won't get pulled up for them. This post was made by "tommy" on The Magic Cafe.




Mr Koenig's response follows.




Some people never learn...

Chris

Ignorance is not an offense.

[RoboTimbo]

It seems that despite being informed here directly that the million dollars is safe, Mr Koenig is insisting on spreading his misinformation and lies where he won't get pulled up for them. This post was made by "tommy" on The Magic Cafe.

On 2008-10-14 21:25, tommy wrote:
I have wrote to Randi to see if I can take his test. Every time I throw a penny in the Wishing Well my wish comes true.


Mr Koenig's response follows.

On 2008-10-15 08:50, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Well, you'll have to put a microchip IN the coin to make sure that it is the exact coin that makes your wish come true, and not one of the other coins.

You'll have to prove that the coincidence plays NO PART and that the wish can not come true except by the coin wish itself.

One of Randi's boys or a hired expert will have to be down in the well to make sure the coin is not Switched Out. (You'll have to pay him since Randi covers NO expenses)

The wish must get plenty of media Coverage and you will have to have Academics testify that you can do this BEFORE you get a chance to do it.

HOWEVER ... Opus has a point, and the JREF would not consider it a valid claim since it can't be tested.

(Whatever is left of the Million is safe :) )


Some people never learn...

Chris


The Professor does foam at the mouth over the silliest things. Should be easy to come up with a protocol for that.

1. Wish for an elephant to appear in your living room.
2. Throw a penny in the well.

Why is The Professor gushing so much over that?

How about if the elephant DOES appear, the guy wins the million.
If it DOESN'T appear, The Professor pays him $1,000.

[Cuddles]

The Professor does foam at the mouth over the silliest things. Should be easy to come up with a protocol for that.

1. Wish for an elephant to appear in your living room.
2. Throw a penny in the well.

Why is The Professor gushing so much over that?

How about if the elephant DOES appear, the guy wins the million.
If it DOESN'T appear, The Professor pays him $1,000.

Plus, he'd have an elephant to sell.

Alternatively, if every wish you make comes true, why not just wish for a million dollars and not bother with the JREF at all?

[The Professor]

You guys are Funny, but where's the Money?

Where's the new bank statement?

I am so happy that you like to hunt down post by my alter ego Psychic Samurai.

I've joined a new forum and I'll let you know where that one is too.

Wish I had so much time on my hands :)

The International Seance Project is at hand. Beware :)

The protocol is almost completed!

Where's the new statement? All I see is the old one.

[chillzero]

Where's the new bank statement?

<snip>

Where's the new statement? All I see is the old one.

Did you email and ask for it?

[William Smith]

You guys are Funny, but where's the Money?

Where's the new bank statement?

I am so happy that you like to hunt down post by my alter ego Psychic Samurai.

Wish I had so much time on my hands :)

The International Seance Project is at hand. Beware :)

Where's the new statement? All I see is the old one.

Only the JREF Staff can answer that officially. Since they do not frequent the forum regularly I suggest contacting them directly via challenge@randi.org

I should point out that you very likely will receive the same information you already have received multiple times in this thread, namely that the JREF is legally obligated to pay the prize money - in the event of a success on part of the claimant - and that their current funds are sufficient to achieve that.

[MattC]

Where's the work you were supposed to have done to find any of this out?

Wait, you've done nothing?

~ Matt

[The Professor]

There are over 1000 people every day that are supposed to make their home payments but they are all going into foreclosure.

The only way to get the money is to sue them ... and the bottom line is that you can't get blood out of a tomato.

So having the option of legal action makes no sense.

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.

Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.

Why hasn't the JREF published theirs?

[William Smith]

There are over 1000 people every day that are supposed to make their home payments but they are all going into foreclosure.

The only way to get the money is to sue them ... and the bottom line is that you can't get blood out of a tomato.

So having the option of legal action makes no sense.

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.

Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.

Why hasn't the JREF published theirs?

They have, remember?

Again: Should you feel the need for information that can only be supplied by a JREF Staffer, contact the JREF directly via challenge@randi.org.
Do not hesitate to post the e-mail you sent so that the audience can follow.

[MattC]

There are over 1000 people every day that are supposed to make their home payments but they are all going into foreclosure.

The only way to get the money is to sue them ... and the bottom line is that you can't get blood out of a tomato.

So having the option of legal action makes no sense.

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.

Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.

Why hasn't the JREF published theirs?

Why haven't your friends published theirs?

We can keep bandying dumb arguments around until the end of time, but it won't get you any real information of value. If you truly desire this information, QUIT ASKING THE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE IT (i.e. we forum members) and take GzuzKryzt's advice, which I helpfully quote here:


Should you feel the need for information that can only be supplied by a JREF Staffer, contact the JREF directly via challenge@randi.org.
Do not hesitate to post the e-mail you sent so that the audience can follow.


~ Matt

(ps: for god's sake, by this point it's like you're trying to resist getting the information at all so you can continue to complain about not having it)
(pps: Consider the following:


Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.



The money is held in the form of immediately negotiable bonds held by Goldman Sachs, a highly respected investment firm.

I am helpfully bolding specific words I feel are of significance.)

[fromdownunder]

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.



TP, if you are seriously trying to suggest that providing unrefutable evidence that the paranormal exists (by winning the challenge) is utterly worthless outside of Randi's $1 Million, you must live on a different planet than I do.

You would be doing what nobody has ever done. Even Sylvia Browne would bow down before you. And Montel would have you on every show. It would be just the beginning. Then there's the books, the lecture circuit, the TV shows, the marketing for your live appearences...

Think outside the box. Or, you know, work on a protocol that is either finished, or not finished, depending on which thread you are posting.

Norm

[Crispy Duck]

You would be doing what nobody has ever done. Even Sylvia Browne would bow down before you. And Montel would have you on every show. It would be just the beginning. Then there's the books, the lecture circuit, the TV shows, the marketing for your live appearences...

On the other hand, there's always the risk that he'll be abducted by the CIA and kept locked in a basement for the rest of his life, remotely-viewing the movements of Osama bin Laden and calling on the spirit of Houdini to eavesdrop in the Kremlin.

[RoboTimbo]

There are over 1000 people every day that are supposed to make their home payments but they are all going into foreclosure.

The only way to get the money is to sue them ... and the bottom line is that you can't get blood out of a tomato.

So having the option of legal action makes no sense.

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.

Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.

Why hasn't the JREF published theirs?


Then don't. But quit the whining. Enough people have pointed out to you how to get the information and they've done it enough times. What is it, about once or twice a week that you come on here with the same whine?

Give it up, you're on the wrong forum for that to get traction. Stop being a pouty child about this. You really don't have any self-respect, do you? Certainly nobody here has any for you, because of your actions. Try to show a little pride in yourself, don't go all weepy about the challenge funds. Do what you need to do.

[Ocelot]

This Bible, the book that everybody's talking about. I don't think it exists. I went and stood somewhere near a library for hours. That building that's supposed to hold copies of lots of books? If you believe that sort of thing! Anyway no-one put a copy of the bible in my hand, let alone read it aloud to me!

Now I've caught a cold from standing outside and have a nasty itching senseation down below which I suspect was caused when nobody wiped my bottom after my last dump.

Despite telling my milkman all about it, no doctor has come to visit me which means I can't ask this purveyor of suposed medical miralces to change my milk order.

The situation is totally intollerable and so I expect that I should win a huge payout in the courts if only an injury lawyer would call me instead of forcing me to sit here incapacitated watching daytime TV commercials and polishing the keypad on my phone.

What is the entire world except for me doing wrong? It's almost as if no-one else has the sort of reliable psychic powers I claim to have despite not knowing how to test them.

[nathan]

Is 'The Professor' unable to distinguish between stock and bond markets?

[William Smith]

Is 'The Professor' unable to distinguish between stock and bond markets?

:) No. :)

[nathan]

:) No. :)

oh, so you think he is able to distinguish between them? If so, how do you account for his concern about the stock market?

[RoboTimbo]

oh, so you think he is able to distinguish between them? If so, how do you account for his concern about the stock market?

:) His lack of psychic ability? :)

[Dr H]

All documentation of assets of the JREF must be available to the general public as they are a Not For Profit group. Hiding money is illegal.
I would like to see this assertion backed up. I've done some looking in Wikipedia and at About.com, and can find no blanket disclosure requirement for non-profits, at either state or national levels.

I would like to see this assertion backed up. I've done some looking in Wikipedia and at About.com, and can find no blanket disclosure requirement for non-profits, at either state or national levels.

I don't see that this was directy answered, and I happened to be driving by, so I thought I'd jump in.

The public records requirement for non-profit corporations is specified in US Code Title 26, Subtitle F, Chapter 61, Subchapter B, § 6104(a)(1)(A), viz.:


If an organization described in section 501 (c) or (d) is exempt from taxation under section 501 (a) for any taxable year [...] the application filed by the organization with respect to which the Secretary made his determination that such organization was entitled to exemption [...] any letter or other document issued by the Internal Revenue Service with respect to such application or notice shall be open to public inspection...


And § 6104(b)

Inspection of annual information returns:
The information required to be furnished by sections 6033, 6034, and 6058, together with the names and addresses of such organizations and trusts, shall be made available to the public ...


§ 6003, 6034, and 6058 explicitly define the sorts of returns that need to be filed. "Return," and "return information" are defined in § 6103(b)(1) and § 6103(b)(2)(A), respectively, as follows:


The term “return” means any tax or information return, declaration of estimated tax, or claim for refund required by, or provided for or permitted under, the provisions of this title...

The term “return information” means—a taxpayer’s identity, the nature, source, or amount of his income, payments, receipts, deductions, exemptions, credits, assets, liabilities, net worth, tax liability, tax withheld, deficiencies, overassessments, or tax payments...


Which, I think, pretty much covers the public disclosure requirement for funding. :)

[William Smith]

oh, so you think he is able to distinguish between them? If so, how do you account for his concern about the stock market?

:) Potato salad. :)

[EHocking]

This Bible, the book that everybody's talking about. I don't think it exists. I went and stood somewhere near a library for hours. That building that's supposed to hold copies of lots of books? If you believe that sort of thing! Anyway no-one put a copy of the bible in my hand, let alone read it aloud to me!

Now I've caught a cold from standing outside and have a nasty itching senseation down below which I suspect was caused when nobody wiped my bottom after my last dump.

Despite telling my milkman all about it, no doctor has come to visit me which means I can't ask this purveyor of suposed medical miralces to change my milk order.

The situation is totally intollerable and so I expect that I should win a huge payout in the courts if only an injury lawyer would call me instead of forcing me to sit here incapacitated watching daytime TV commercials and polishing the keypad on my phone.

What is the entire world except for me doing wrong? It's almost as if no-one else has the sort of reliable psychic powers I claim to have despite not knowing how to test them.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/266148ffa2def2e71.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14134)

[Azrael 5]

Is 'The Professor' unable to distinguish between stock and bond markets?

No more than being unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality :)

[Azrael 5]

I think it important to keep informing JREF members of TP's inane rants.
Again from Magic Cafe thread about the million.
I called the JREF today again and asked for an update on their money problem.

They took my number and said they'd call back.

Nothing yet http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/images/smiles/smile.gif

Inane.Why does he care? He has no prototcol? He has no paranormal ability.
He has no common sense.

ETA: I wasn't aware there was a money problem,can anyone clarify?

[Jackalgirl]

As far as I know (and I don't claim to know anything), there is no money problem.

TP has a suspicion that the current financial crisis has negatively impacted the amount of money in the prize fund. I believe that this is what he is referring to as the JREF's "money problem" -- it is not their problem, but rather his problem understanding that even if this were true, it would not obviate the JREF's contractual obligation to pay him $1M should he succeed in passing both the preliminary and formal demonstration phases of the Challenge.

Since he and the JREF have not arrived at a mutually-agreed-upon protocol (as far as I know), this is putting the cart before the horse. But I suspect he is looking for an excuse to avoid having to actually attempt to put a protocol down on paper and make it publically viewable.

You see, getting to the protocol phase places him in a bad position: he either sets things up so that he is unable to perform his tricks (by agreeing to a properly-controlled protocol), or he makes it plain that he has no intentions of agreeing to a properly-controlled protocol by refusing to submit or agree to one (which would be available for anyone to see).

By going on and on about the JREF's "money problems", he invents a way to avoid having to actually get to the protocol phase altogether. "I would have submitted a properly-controlled protocol, but I won't bother since they don't have the money!"

[rjh01]

You are brilliant Jackalgirl!

[Jeff Corey]

Meanwhile at the Magic Cafe, someone who reminds me of someone here sez, "I'm sure Slim will be glad to have you in his corner. Perhaps you can advise him on how to proceed in crafting his protocol.
Randwill

[Pogo]

I just saw this posted by "Psychic Samurai" (known here as The Professor) at The Magic Cafe in reply to a supporter who feels he (TP) has been treated unfairly here;

"Thanks Bill!

If you bother to read the other JREF MDC Applicant threads you'll see they do the very same thing to them too

Lot's of Closed Minded Snarky Bashing

It's their way of getting Applicants to Quit. (And making themselves feel a bit superior)

If that doesn't work then they keep raising the bar or simply refusing to "Agree" on the protocol.

The guys on youtube call it a "Sham!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMX0d8Efzj8

They will never risk the Million (Or what's left of it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMrgr1yR3k0&feature=related"


He seems to be setting himself up to say he tried to be tested but the JREF wouldn't work with him. Which is what some have been predicting was his plan all along.

[MattC]

It would perhaps be beneficial to point these people towards the conversation dialogue between RemieV and Mr. Koenig concerning his paranormal claim.

~ Matt

[chillzero]

This thread should not be about The Professor. And please don't make me set another thread to moderated status for discussing his protocol outside the moderated thread fro doing so.

It seems to me this thread can be left to die, since the initial question has been answered repeatedly, and should TP continue to ignore it and flood the thread with the same questions over and over it may be closed.

[Azrael 5]

I agree Chilli.mayeb all posts regarding Dave Koneigs alleged psychosis can be posted in General Skepticism thread "Professor's paranormal proof.

[The Professor]

This thread should not be about The Professor. And please don't make me set another thread to moderated status for discussing his protocol outside the moderated thread fro doing so.

It seems to me this thread can be left to die, since the initial question has been answered repeatedly, and should TP continue to ignore it and flood the thread with the same questions over and over it may be closed.

Are you threatening to close this thread because I contacted the JREF last week and ASKED THE BIG QUESTION and received " WE'LL CALL YOU BACK " as an answer?

I'm STILL waiting for a return call .... Nothing so far.

The initial question has NOT been answered. Ask the JREF yourself.

I DID !

[Brian-M]

Are you threatening to close this thread because I contacted the JREF last week and ASKED THE BIG QUESTION and received " WE'LL CALL YOU BACK " as an answer?

Do you have a comprehension disability?
Chillzero is threatening to put the thread on moderated status if we keep talking about you instead of the million dollar prize, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

The latest statement should be found here (http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf).

They seem to be a bit behind in posting last month's statement. Maybe they haven't received it yet, or possibly they haven't gotten around to scanning it in yet.

The statement ending August 31 shows:

$578,218.72 Cash Equivalents and Auction Rate Securities
$534,896.30 Investment Grade Fixed Income

Given the nature of these investments, the chances of the cash prize dropping significantly below $1,000,000.00 is very slim indeed.


I'm STILL waiting for a return call .... Nothing so far.

The initial question has NOT been answered. Ask the JREF yourself.

I DID !

If it's that important to you, call them again, or better yet, email them. Your call may have slipped their mind.

[The Professor]

Why do you think they are late?

Almost all of my friends have received statements during this crisis to update their information, since the investment companies see that many people are concerned.

I was concerned even Before the Crash as to the fluidity of the Challenge Money.

There is NO Million Dollar Challenge without the Million Dollars don't you agree?

It's a valid question.

[William Smith]

And you have received a valid answer.

[Wowbagger]

Professor: Is it really about the money? If you really did have paranormal powers, and the JREF test verified it - their Million Dollar prize would be the least of your rewards!

Imagine: Mainstream scientists all over the world taking your claims seriously!

Imagine: Obtaining a Nobel Prize for the most innovative and unexpected discovery in all of the entire history of science!

Imagine: The money to be made from booksales and lecture tours! Because you now hold the key to real powers, that everyone would love to hear about!

Makes the JREF Million look kinda pathetic, doesn't it?

[The Professor]

Professor: Is it really about the money? If you really did have paranormal powers, and the JREF test verified it - their Million Dollar prize would be the least of your rewards!

Imagine: Mainstream scientists all over the world taking your claims seriously!

Imagine: Obtaining a Nobel Prize for the most innovative and unexpected discovery in all of the entire history of science!

Imagine: The money to be made from booksales and lecture tours! Because you now hold the key to real powers, that everyone would love to hear about!

Makes the JREF Million look kinda pathetic, doesn't it?

You are correct ... The JREF MDC DOES look Pathetic :)

[The Professor]

Here's the Deal .... If the JREF MDC proves to have dropped to below the Million Dollars, can I expect an apology from you .... or will you languish in your ignorance?

Will you MAN UP, or just sluff it off?

I have only asked a question that all of you profess to know without exception.

http://jimclass.com/

[MattC]

Oh I'll freely apologize, I have no doubt about that. Will you do the same if it's found out that it does, in fact, have more than a million dollars in it?

~ Matt

[Seanrmr]

I to will put forward my apology. Then I will help donate to get it back up to the million. But first I need to see that happen. Will you do the same if it's found out that it does, in fact, have more than a million dollars in it?(stole the last question from post above)

[Azrael 5]

If you are so concerned why not go through the list of worldwide challenges you were given the link to some time ago,apply to all them and you will have more than one million.
You signed a contract when you applied for MDC,GUARANTEEING you on emilllion dollars.Should you win.There is little chance of you winnning so I don't know your problem.
By the time you create a protocol the stock market will be blooming.

[Ocelot]

Bonds folks, bonds. If the JREF had a million in bonds last month (in fact they had more than that as Startz kindly pointed out here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4079095#post4079095) http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf (http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf)) then they have a million plus fixed interest this month. Either that or Goldman Sachs has gone belly up.

Either way the JREF has enough assets to cover the million outside of Goldman Sachs as Matt C kindly pointed out here (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4117708&postcount=65)

http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?npoId=523196 (http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?npoId=523196)

Total Assets: 2,369,744

If somehow Goldman Sachs went under obliterating the prize fund and for some connected and therefore not entirely coincidental reason, the other assets were also unrecoverable and if...

(and this is a BIG IF)

...if after ten years of searching, a genuine paranormal claim finally managed to pass both the preliminary and the final test, then the JREF would still have to pay. As has also been pointed out by too many to mention, that's a legal obligation set out in the contract. As many here have mentioned, there are tens of thousands of supporters that would chip in rather then see the JREF go under. I've promised my $1,000 (though I think it's pretty safe) but some of these other supporters are not short of income. One or two could probably cover the whole million in one shot.

That the million would be paid is as near to a certainty as is reasonably possible.

Descartes advocated the universality of doubt. It will always be possible to apply hyperbolic doubt. When the cynic sees a statement showing the current balance of the account he may petulantly demand the next statement, and the next and the next. Just as the Professor has already done once. He may demand that Goldman Sachs undergoes a full audit at his whim or that the JREF diversify their investments. He may propose that their inevitable reluctance is a sign of nefarious motives. However in fact it is a sign that the request comes from a no-account non-entity with no greater right to be heard than my tea leaf reading granny.

This could be changed by just by passing the test. That is the true prize. Not the millions dollars but the fact that the winner could no longer be so easily dismissed. When the winner of the MDC points out that the value of the dollar has plummeted in recent months and a million now has a fraction of the buying power that it would have had when the challenge first offered it, people will actually listen. Respect, that's what the prize offers, not only is it something that can't be bought, it's something that certain applicants clearly desire.

[Azrael 5]

Excellent post Ocelot,doubt it will stop The Professor's blatant attempt at smoke screens but at least it's down in print for all to see.

[RoboTimbo]

Excellent post Ocelot,doubt it will stop The Professor's blatant attempt at smoke screens but at least it's down in print for all to see.


And has been dozens of times. This is just one of many avenues TP is sweating over to try to get himself an "out". His obfuscation about the challenge funds is incredibly transparent to everyone here. A pity he can't see that everyone else sees through it. Or maybe he can see it and that's why he's panicing so much.

[Wowbagger]

You are correct ... The JREF MDC DOES look Pathetic :)
Then, a man like you should seek every opporunity to be taken seriously by scientists!

Even if (and this is a BIG IF) the JREF Million is unavailable, you would still earn all those other, coutless awards and sources of monetary income, if you passed the Challenge!

So, what else are you waiting for?!



Imagine: YOU being taken seriously by TOP scientists, all over the world.......

[William Smith]

Oh I'll freely apologize, I have no doubt about that. Will you do the same if it's found out that it does, in fact, have more than a million dollars in it?

[MattC]

Here's the Deal .... If the JREF MDC proves to have dropped to below the Million Dollars, can I expect an apology from you .... or will you languish in your ignorance?

Will you MAN UP, or just sluff it off?

You stated this as somewhat of a challenge to those of us who did actually try and convince you otherwise. I helpfully accepted your challenge:


Oh I'll freely apologize, I have no doubt about that. Will you do the same if it's found out that it does, in fact, have more than a million dollars in it?

I'm still waiting on a response for this. Will you, er, "MAN UP" as you stated in a rather juvenile fashion?

~ MattC

[The Professor]

If you are so concerned why not go through the list of worldwide challenges you were given the link to some time ago,apply to all them and you will have more than one million.
You signed a contract when you applied for MDC,GUARANTEEING you on emilllion dollars.Should you win.There is little chance of you winnning so I don't know your problem.
By the time you create a protocol the stock market will be blooming.

I have contacted the closest group from the list. They have not given me any information and for all I know they are simply a Sham also.

They have not returned my phone message and the JREF has not returned the call to confirm the funds. I wonder why?

[MattC]

I'm still waiting on a response for this. Will you, er, "MAN UP" as you stated in a rather juvenile fashion?

You have not yet returned my message to confirm the wager. I wonder why?

~ Matt

[Brian-M]

I was just wondering, what happens to the prize money when the challenge ends?

[steenkh]

Randi has explained that the donor has consented to the money being transferred to the JREF for use in new projects.

[The Professor]

There used to be a link to the Pie Chart of the MDC funds. I can no longer find it. Does anyone know where it is?
I was hoping for an update.

[eirik]

There used to be a link to the Pie Chart of the MDC funds. I can no longer find it. Does anyone know where it is?
I was hoping for an update.

Welcome back. Friendly advice: If you badly need an update on the funds now and then, send an e-mail to jref staff and stop derailing this thread.

By the way: How did things work out on halloween? Were there voices? Did you record anything? Were your writer friends there? Were Jim C and Uri there? Why don't you post anything on what happenened? Are you finally backing out of the challenge? Do you have a workable p.....l as you have earlier repeateadly stated, or was that a lie?If it wasn't a lie, why don't you post it in the appropriate thread?

[Seanrmr]

I found the report no problem. Also as I'm sure you have been told if you want an update it had on the facts to send them a letter and they can send out a copy the latest statement.

[rjh01]

Just found the 2007 return. It is here http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/650/650649443/650649443_200712_990.pdf

[Azrael 5]

*Snip*

By the way: How did things work out on halloween? Were there voices? Did you record anything? Were your writer friends there? Were Jim C and Uri there? Why don't you post anything on what happenened? Are you finally backing out of the challenge? Do you have a workable p.....l as you have earlier repeateadly stated, or was that a lie?If it wasn't a lie, why don't you post it in the appropriate thread?

I can answer on Prof's behalf.it went badly,Jim got busted by the cops no voices(other than the cops) were heard.No he doesn't have a protocol,yes his previous post was a lie.:D

[chillzero]

Keep it on topic

[Pogo]

How often does Goldman Sachs normally provide a statement for the MDC fund account? Monthly or quarterly? The most recent is dated August 31, 2008.

[MattC]

How often does Goldman Sachs normally provide a statement for the MDC fund account? Monthly or quarterly? The most recent is dated August 31, 2008.

Considering the volume and complexity of many of Goldman Sachs' accounts (particularly this one, it is certainly nowhere near a straight bank deposit), quarterly by the calendar (not fiscal) year seems a fair deduction, if admittedly an unsupportable one.

I'll call Goldman Sachs in a little while and find out, I'm trying to kill some time and enjoy a nice lunch for a change. My waitress is cute. :)

~ Matt

[MattC]

waitress too cute, calling tomorrow.

~ Matt

[MattC]

Totally just called Goldman Sachs after cute waitress told me to quit staring and that she'd go out with me after work (!).

It seems client account statements are provided according to three main governing factors:

1) client preferences
2) market conditions
3) the team Goldman-Sachs has working upon the customer's account

She was specific upon the point that the client could call and request a statement any time they chose. However, for reasons well espoused, there is little reason for the JREF to do so.

~ Matt

[The Professor]

But they were ASKED to do so.

Since only a JREF MDC applicant could receive the cash it is a pertinent question.

[MattC]

But they were ASKED to do so.

Since only a JREF MDC applicant could receive the cash it is a pertinent question.

Unless there has been some change in your claim that I'm not aware of, you're essentially on the backburner until next October.

What's the harm in waiting until February for the next quarterly? Why does the request need to be handled so immediately? We've proven throughout the thread that your reasons for requesting one are essentially baseless, so really that comes off as a vanity request as opposed to an actual one for a valid reason.

~ Matt

(edit: I've been told you're not actually an applicant until you have a protocol designed.)
(further edit: Asking on an internet forum is not exactly the best way to get anything accomplished.)

[Pogo]

The last published statement was dated August 31, 2008. Wouldn't a next quarterly statement be out in a couple of weeks, around the end of November?

[MattC]

The last published statement was dated August 31, 2008. Wouldn't a next quarterly statement be out in a couple of weeks, around the end of November?

It means quarterly in terms of a year. Given the current statement from August, I'd expect the JREF's reporting period to go something like this:

December
February
May
August
December
<rinse, lather, repeat>

~ Matt

[Seanrmr]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/19/markets/bondcenter/credit_market/index.htm?postversion=2008111917

Government bonds are down but are still returning a profit to owners instead of a loss and the JREF's last 990 shows that they had moved 500,000 odd dollars more into goverment bonds so there total amount in that investment is over 1 million. I'm not a financial expert but this story I think helps my argument. I think either someone from JREF or GS realised better get that other half of the million into safer investment in the 2007 financial year.

So I guess that GS decided not to bother telling JREF as market conditions they are in hasn't been to badly affected so I'm willing to wait till either next report or next 990.

[Pogo]

It means quarterly in terms of a year. Given the current statement from August, I'd expect the JREF's reporting period to go something like this:

December
February
May
August
December
<rinse, lather, repeat>

~ Matt

Thanks. I guess I had it in my mind that quarterly meant every three months. Hence:

August 31
November 30
February 28
May 31
August 31, ect.

But I guess it's more complicated than that.

[MattC]

Thanks. I guess I had it in my mind that quarterly meant every three months. Hence:

August 31
November 30
February 28
May 31
August 31, ect.

But I guess it's more complicated than that.

Consider the matter in light of the fiscal year rather than the calendar year. That probably invalidates my response more thoroughly than it does yours, thinking about it. Well, I guess we'll find out whenever the next statement goes up.

Wager a beer on it? =)

~ Matt

[Azrael 5]

The Professor wants to know why the JREF has moved the information about the challenge funds! Apaprently they have moved back now(he claims)since he mentioned it!

Dunno why he can't post this question himself.

[Cuddles]

There have been enough warnings about this. This is not a thread about The Professor or his claims. Any further derails will face more severe action.

[The Professor]

It's been since August and no new PIE CHART to show how the JREF MDC funds have faired in these economically challenged times. My 401K looks like a 201K right now :)

Why is that? Why no update?

I have personally asked for updates more than once over the past months. I actually spoke to Randi himself, and he said the funds were conservatively invested. If that is true I'd like to see the new information. It is long past the quarterly update.

If you are a true critical thinker perhaps a question may be raised in your mind as well? Please dispell any fears that I have about the dwindling MDC funds.
Thanks
:cool::cool:

[SimonD]

I predict 10+ pages of nothing.

[not daSkeptic]

The current document seems to imply the statements are monthly, which would suggest more recent documents are available. If this is the case, I too must wonder why they haven't been posted.

[The Atheist]

Well, taking into account that some or most of the MDC money seems to be invested in bonds, I imagine JREF has made a killing.

Maybe they're embarrassed at the profit they've made?

[William Smith]

It's been since August and no new PIE CHART to show how the JREF MDC funds have faired in these economically challenged times. My 401K looks like a 201K right now :)

Why is that? Why no update?

I have personally asked for updates more than once over the past months. I actually spoke to Randi himself, and he said the funds were conservatively invested. If that is true I'd like to see the new information. It is long past the quarterly update.

If you are a true critical thinker perhaps a question may be raised in your mind as well? Please dispell any fears that I have about the dwindling MDC funds.
Thanks
:cool::cool:

Asking the forum members seems pointless if you want to receive an official answer. If you have an actual interest in said official answer contact challenge@randi.org

Let us know how it went.

[Foolmewunz]

Yes, Dave. It's true. It's all dwindled down. What did Randi know? He's a magician, not an investment broker. You heard all those stories about the big Ponzi scheme, right? And just coincidentally, they said many of the investors were in South Florida? Hmmm?

Yep! You got it! You figured it out, alright!

So, yeah... the sad truth is that there's almost nothing left. And since that's your stated sole reason for annoying the crap out of the forums and harassing James Randi posting here, I guess that means you'll be leaving, then? Hmmmm?

Well,... Ta, then. Have a good time on your interwebnetcast radio show with its audience of 7. We'll sure miss ya.


Oh, and.... um.... If it's not too much to ask, could ya take Jim, with you?

[rjh01]

It's been since August and no new PIE CHART to show how the JREF MDC funds have faired in these economically challenged times. My 401K looks like a 201K right now :)
<snip>

I notice you mention the word 'My' in your OP. It is not YOUR money. You are no longer even an applicant for the MDC.

We also have a very good humour sub forum. You may enjoy yourself there.

[The Professor]

So have I been right all along and endured your Snarkieness just to prove my point?
Now, perhaps you will stop defending things in a mindless fashion, without question (Like most other cults). After all, aren't you guys supposed to be critical thinkers and skeptics.

I'm not saying the money is gone, but since no one from the JREF will answer my question I brought it here.

Also, your personal attacks on me don't add to your defense ... They simply show your desperation.

I'm glad to see that other members of the JREF Forum are beginning to see the truth or at least question this situation.

Thanks
Dave

[Doubt]

I'm glad to see that other members of the JREF Forum are beginning to see the truth or at least question this situation.

Thanks
Dave

Look into the concept of what bond investments are and then get back to us. This has been explained to you before and you are quite dishonest in your attempts to pretend you have not been told about it before.

That laughter you keep hearing is people laughing at you, not with you.

[Ernie M]

To The Professor:

Do you think it's possible that Jim Callahan has succeeded as a "Paranormalist" and that the enigmatic entity known as Raymond Hill spirited away the money?

If you are so concerned about the existence of the money, did you write to the JREF requesting that they produce the current account statement from Goldman Sachs, as described under section 3. Prize Money in The JREF Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge "FAQ" (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-faq.html)?

QUESTION FOR The Professor:
Are you seeking the truth, or are you more interested in the attempt to spread self-serving propaganda?

[Klimax]

So have I been right all along and endured your Snarkieness just to prove my point?
Now, perhaps you will stop defending things in a mindless fashion, without question (Like most other cults). After all, aren't you guys supposed to be critical thinkers and skeptics.

I'm not saying the money is gone, but since no one from the JREF will answer my question I brought it here.

Also, your personal attacks on me don't add to your defense ... They simply show your desperation.

I'm glad to see that other members of the JREF Forum are beginning to see the truth or at least question this situation.

Thanks
Dave

I am afraid it is of no concern for you Mr. "Professor".And since nowhere is stated that only money in that account can be used for prize,I fail to see importance of this issue.

And have you asked them in writting or at least by email?

[Foolmewunz]

Hey, Dave...
Now here's an idea. Why don't you send, like, a communication directly to the James Randi Educational Foundation, and ask them. Coming onto a forum and pimping and posturing is not the way an intelligent person proceeds if he/she is really concerned.
If I want to know where GMAC is going to spend my five billion dollars, I'd go look up their financial records, and if that's not satisfactory, I'd write them a letter. I think it would be far more productive than posting a rant on the Pontiac Firebird Comments section.
As to the lack of serious responses? You're under the delusion that we have the same worries as you.

(Brief pause while I threw up a little in my mouth at the very idea that any of my thought processes were akin to your own.)

Come back when you have some information. Most of us don't care about your speculation. If we're wrong and all the bond issuers are insolvent and/or Phil's off in Bolivia funding a llama farm, then we'll pay attention. But right now, it's just the speculation of one person with a well known dull axe to grind.

[not daSkeptic]

I'm glad to see that other members of the JREF Forum are beginning to see the truth or at least question this situation.

If you are referring to my post (#3), then I suggest you reread what I wrote. My questioning of the situation was predicated upon a condition, the state of which is not known to me.

[Foolmewunz]

If you are referring to my post (#3), then I suggest you reread what I wrote. My questioning of the situation was predicated upon a condition, the state of which is not known to me.

And what did the Foundation say when you enquired?

[not daSkeptic]

And what did the Foundation say when you enquired?

I have not inquired nor do I plan to do so. I have no interest in whether the MDC is funded or not. I simply have a passing curiosity as to why, if more recent data is available, it has not been published.

[The Professor]

So let me get this straight.... The Skeptics here will still call this the Million Dollar Challenge even though the JREF has not renewed the PIE CHART since August of LAST YEAR?

You will all follow so obediently and never question anything? ( daSkeptic and myself excluded)
Is that open or closed minded of you?
I have contacted the JREF MANY times and even called RANDI HIMSELF ... and still no new information.

Does it take so long to Cook The Books? :)

[William Smith]

So let me get this straight.... The Skeptics here will still call this the Million Dollar Challenge even though the JREF has not renewed the PIE CHART since August of LAST YEAR?

You will all follow so obediently and never question anything? ( daSkeptic excluded)
Is that open or closed minded of you?
I have contacted the JREF MANY times and even called RANDI HIMSELF ... and still no new information.

Does it take so long to Cook The Books? :)

Edited to remove personal insult. Please refrain from this kind of post, even if your intent was to be humorous.

[not daSkeptic]

Does it take so long to Cook The Books? :)

There is nothing to suggest any deception is taking place. Lack of data is just that: lack of data.

[The Professor]

So the monthly update is no more? ... How about the Quarterly update? ... Not that either? .... How about a YEARLY UPDATE for 2009? ... maybe later? :)
How about your claim to give me a response? NOTHING.

The JREF HAS the DATA (GS has contacted ALL of their clients due to the situation they are currently in, and if you don't believe me please contact them yourself ) ... They are just NOT POSTING IT!

[not daSkeptic]

The JREF HAS the DATA (GS has contacted ALL of their clients due to the situation they are currently in, and if you don't believe me please contact them yourself ) ... They are just NOT POSTING IT!

How do you know JREF has the data? Are you privy to the details of their communications with Goldman Sachs?

[Sherman Bay]

The JREF HAS the DATA... They are just NOT POSTING IT!Why do you care? It's not like you're making an honest effort to win it.

[Femke]

TP, what makes you think that having no real interest in where the MDC money is and how much it amounts to exactly at the moment, has anything to do with being closed-minded or obedient? It is not my money, nor is it or will it likely ever be yours, so why are you so worked up about it?
Femke

[Mojo]

Do you think it's possible that Jim Callahan has succeeded as a "Paranormalist" and that the enigmatic entity known as Raymond Hill spirited away the money?


Perhaps it's in Ray's savings account (http://www.ereleases.com/pr/job-openings-dead-dead-employees-wages-taxable-matter-elected-13534).

[jimtron]

Dave: I have no idea what's going on with the MDC funds. But I have a suggestion. If you know anyone who has a testable paranormal ability (such as remote viewing, dowsing, distinguishing a homeopathic remedy from water, etc--abilities where mutually agreed protocols have been established here in the past), have them apply and take the challenge. When they win, they'll either get a million bucks, or if there's less than a million, you guys could go to the media and report that the Million Dollar Challenge doesn't really pay a million. Either way, you win.

I don't want to be negative about believers in the paranormal--I want to see them tested or demonstrated (demonstrated in a way that rules out trickery). Please, if you know anyone with testable claims, have them apply, or demonstrate their ability to the world. The demonstrations from you and Jim may or may not be good entertainment, but appear to be mentalism effects (ie, magic tricks), like what Uri Geller does (obviously there are well known mentalism techniques for spoon bending and making compasses move), and even Geller has recently admitted to not having paranormal powers.

There have been many protocols that were approved by JREF representatives, in case anyone thinks that it's impossible to come up with a suitable protocol.

[Klimax]

So the monthly update is no more? ... How about the Quarterly update? ... Not that either? .... How about a YEARLY UPDATE for 2009? ... maybe later? :)
How about your claim to give me a response? NOTHING.

The JREF HAS the DATA (GS has contacted ALL of their clients due to the situation they are currently in, and if you don't believe me please contact them yourself ) ... They are just NOT POSTING IT!

Have you asked them in writing?And was their reply?

[William Smith]

So the monthly update is no more? ... How about the Quarterly update? ... Not that either? .... How about a YEARLY UPDATE for 2009? ... maybe later? :)
How about your claim to give me a response? NOTHING.

The JREF HAS the DATA (GS has contacted ALL of their clients due to the situation they are currently in, and if you don't believe me please contact them yourself ) ... They are just NOT POSTING IT!

Here's an idea - and I'm not being sarcastic: Why don't you start a poll in "Forum Community"? Give at least two sensible options and don't forget to include a Planet X option. You should make it an open poll, too.

By the way, I would vote for the JREF to release a new statement asap.

[Brody]

Requested the information today. Will advise as to results.


Per your FAQ [ challenge-faq.html ]

"Anyone can verify that the money exists by requesting the information in writing from the JREF."

Is email considered "in writing"? If so, please send me the latest information. If not, please send me the physical address I should address a
letter to.

Thanks for your help,

[Azrael 5]

Dave maybe you should concentrate your efforts on getting counselling for the ufo geek buddy of yours? You know the one who claims to record dead people from plane crashes? Been hanging with you too much I fear.
Oh an how is the dead NASA dude?

On topic,I dont care if the million is there ,Im not applicant-neither are you thankfully.It clearly states in challenge faq all you need to know.Im betting you havent requested in writing a statement like it says.

[The Professor]

Seeing as the Challenge funds are currently in negotiable bonds at Goldman-Sachs, and hearing the news about all the bank buyouts, what does this mean for the million dollars? I know the Challenge will be retired soon, but I was wondering what would happen if the current value of the bonds falls below the million dollar level.

Well, now it's almost four months ( Three months and 12 days) since another member of the JREF Forum asked this question and the JREF has dodged answering it for the entire time ... Even though I spoke with Randi himself and requested current information Months Ago!

Goldman Sacks has asked for Bailout Money and everyone else's bonds have taken a hit too.

Why the silence!!!!!

[drkitten]

Why the silence!!!!!

Because unfounded rants such as yours aren't worth the cost of postage to respond to.

... even by Email.

[The Professor]

Because unfounded rants such as yours aren't worth the cost of postage to respond to.

... even by Email.

Why no Monthly update?
No Quarterly update?
No Requested update?

I guess we are now waiting for a YEARLY UPDATE :)
It's been
SEPTEMBER (No Update)
OCTOBER (No Update)
NOVEMBER (No Update)
DECEMBER (No Update)

Well now it's ........
JANUARY :)

The JREF says all you have to do is ask and they'll disclose the facts .... Well that's not quite the case here now is it?

[Brody]

Regarding my request for the Goldman Sachs information. Received an email from Alison Smith. It unfortunately points me to the August 31, 2008 information.

[Chris H]

Regarding my request for the Goldman Sachs information. Received an email from Alison Smith. It unfortunately points me to the August 31, 2008 information.

Brody,

If you plan on replying, perhaps you could ask when the next statement will be published, and point Alison in the direction of this thread (although no doubt she has already seen it)?

I don't recall how frequently they were changed on the website in the past.

Cheers,

Chris

PS.

Perhaps the JREF feels no need to respond to Hugely Annoying Pricks? :)


I like the moderators so much better here than on other forums...

[Brody]

Chris:

That's exactly what I plan on doing. I want to remove the legs from The Professors little running accusations.

And I want to do it by sincerely and actually following suggestions from the members of this forum. Perhaps then he'll see that he should do *something* about his claims other than whine and cry.

And hugely annoying is still an understatement.


Alison:

Thanks for your reply. The information in the PDF is from August 2008. When could I reasonably
expect current information?

Thanks,

[William Smith]

Why no Monthly update?
No Quarterly update?
No Requested update?

I guess we are now waiting for a YEARLY UPDATE :)
It's been
SEPTEMBER (No Update)
OCTOBER (No Update)
NOVEMBER (No Update)
DECEMBER (No Update)

Well now it's ........
JANUARY :)

The JREF says all you have to do is ask and they'll disclose the facts .... Well that's not quite the case here now is it?

Let's assume for now you got the forum members' attention because you pointed to evidence of the JREF's wrongdoing. So far, so good.

What is your next step?

I assume you intend to achieve a resolution to the problem you pointed to, right?

[Pixel42]

I guess we are now waiting for a YEARLY UPDATE
What do you mean we, pale face?

I'm sure JREF will update it eventually, if and when they consider it necessary. In the meantime I for one am perfectly satisfied with the information that's already been given. Not that it's of any relevance to me, in as much as I'm not about to make a credible attempt at the challenge. Something which you and I do have in common.

[Azrael 5]

I'm with pixel42 I have stated on another thread,I don't care if the million isn't updated,I haven't got paranormal powers-much like yourself Dave and Jim.You crying like a baby on here-to a forum of people who don;t care is getting you knowhere.

Let's see if you can answer a straight question-it's a long shot-have you requested in writing a statement?

[Cavemonster]

I'm with pixel42 I have stated on another thread,I don't care if the million isn't updated,I haven't got paranormal powers-much like yourself Dave and Jim.You crying like a baby on here-to a forum of people who don;t care is getting you knowhere.

Let's see if you can answer a straight question-it's a long shot-have you requested in writing a statement?

This is pretty much irrelevant. Slim's application has been closed due to failure to pursue his claim in good faith and communciate honestly.

The JREF has no obligation to provide him any information.

Here (http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96430,00.html) are the IRS regulations for what information nonprofit organizations must disclose. Notice that there is no reference to current holdings information being available to the public.

Seeing that Slim is no longer in contractual negotiations with the JREF, and that his only relationship with them at the present is as a poster on these boards, they have no legal, moral, social, or other interest or obligation in providing him with the information he asks for.

Considering his past behavior, I would think it fairly wise of them to completely ignore any communication from him.

[Azrael 5]

*snip*
PS.

I like the moderators so much better here than on other forums...

Yes they aren't insane religious biased idiots on here,;)

[RemieV]

To my knowledge, there have NEVER been monthly updates to the statement. We receive and post quarterly updates. It has been roughly four months, and this includes the holiday seasons.

The statement will be posted as soon as is possible.

[Cuddles]

Why no Monthly update?
No Quarterly update?
No Requested update?

I guess we are now waiting for a YEARLY UPDATE :)
It's been
SEPTEMBER (No Update)
OCTOBER (No Update)
NOVEMBER (No Update)
DECEMBER (No Update)

Well now it's ........
JANUARY :)

The JREF says all you have to do is ask and they'll disclose the facts .... Well that's not quite the case here now is it?

You do realise that with the last statement being the August 2008 statement, the next quarerly statement would be the December 2008 one, which could be expected to be recieved some time in January 2009? Which we are currently right at the start of. Isn't it amazing how a tiny little bit of common sense can answer these questions so easily?

[Chris H]

Glad to hear it. Can't wait to see the next fairytale Mr Koenig concocts about the JREF once this story is blown out of the water.

Chris

[Darat]

Merged this thread with another started on the exact same subject.

[The Professor]

To my knowledge, there have NEVER been monthly updates to the statement. We receive and post quarterly updates. It has been roughly four months, and this includes the holiday seasons.

The statement will be posted as soon as is possible.

Thanks Alison ...So you are only SIX WEEKS LATE :)

Why a Month and a Half delay?

And what about my multiple requests several months ago?

Anyone with half a brain knows that GS has sent out communications to all of their clients concerning the market problems. Why are you so late in relaying the information?

[The Professor]

It is. Jeff confirmed that. And the year is still 2008. And the sun is still warm. And two is still less than four.

You will be notified, or you can easily check, if any of these things have changed.

Sit back. Relax. Dream about a million dollars. Kick off your shoes. Work up a protocol. :cool:

Wow ... Still no update and it's been MONTHS Devil's Advocate :)

[The Professor]

Rjh01 already made a valid point.
Also, the JREF lacks the resources to update the progess on each claim. I also find it unfortunate but we have to live with that - unless you want to donate a large sum and speed the process up.

And only a snarky cynic would say the JREF Staff's precious little time is often consumed by insincere applicants, wouldn't he?

The JREF takes in over $400,000.00 a year. Are you serious in saying that they can not afford to keep up with the challengers emails?
Hogwash!!!!!
:cool::cool:
It's been more than another week of NOTHING!!!!!!

Last update was NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR !!!!!!

Movde to appropriate thread

[Klimax]

Thanks Alison ...So you are only SIX WEEKS LATE :)

Why a Month and a Half delay?

And what about my multiple requests several months ago?

Anyone with half a brain knows that GS has sent out communications to all of their clients concerning the market problems. Why are you so late in relaying the information?

Please,stop attacking and lying.ANY update for given month/period will come after said MONTH/PERIOD ENDS*.Therefore you are wrong.They(JREF) ARE NOT six weeks LATE.They cannot be late as they HAVE NOT recieved any update.

("random caps" are there to get attention of "professor")

[not daSkeptic]

Anyone with half a brain knows that GS has sent out communications to all of their clients concerning the market problems.

You've ignored this question once already, so I'll ask it again. How exactly do you have any knowledge of the details of any communications between Goldman Sachs and JREF regarding their account?

[Azrael 5]

Here's my "Paranormal prediction"
The Professor will be banned from here,very soon. :)
How can one person be SO annoying?!

[RemieV]

From what my inquiries have shown, the statement was updated. The link leading to it was not.

http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf

Here is the November statement which illustrates that the million remains intact.

I hope this will finally clear up any questions regarding the existence of the million. If not, there will be another statement posted at the end of the quarter.

[not daSkeptic]

I hope this will finally clear up any questions regarding the existence of the million. If not, there will be another statement posted at the end of the quarter.

Not only is the million still there, but the account appears to be gaining value. Your response, Professor?

:popcorn1

[Soapy Sam]

$1,135,634.79

I wish my portfolio had done half so well this quarter.

So, prof. Happy now?

[RoboTimbo]

$1,135,634.79

I wish my portfolio had done half so well this quarter.

So, prof. Happy now?


This is the worst thing that could have happened to him! Have you no compassion?

[steenkh]

$1,135,634.79

I wish my portfolio had done half so well this quarter.

So, prof. Happy now?
The logical response for The Professor would be "November? That means that there is no guarantee that the money is not completely gone today!" :p

[Rodibidably]

The logical response for The Professor would be "November? That means that there is no guarantee that the money is not completely gone today!" :p
The JREF could show the prof a statement from noon today and he'd just reply "why not update in the last hour and a half?". He obviously intends to spew his nonsense as long as people keep replying...

DO NOT FEED! :tr:

[Azrael 5]

Not only is the million still there, but the account appears to be gaining value. Your response, Professor?

:popcorn1

Sadly he's already seen this one.

*snip*

Last update was NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR !!!!!!

Movde to appropriate thread

[Brody]

The link was updated yesterday. The information should be there now. (And I have posted it in the thread you referred to.)

JREF Challenge Desk




I guess everyone who said to ask was giving good advice. Thanks everybody.

[not daSkeptic]

DO NOT FEED! :tr:

Considering his association with Callahan, it's quite possible he's trolling as part of something bigger. My only interest in this thread was the lack of updated data. Now that we see it was just a minor administrative oversight, I'm satisfied.

[The Professor]

This is Great news!

I PLAY THE MUSIC AND ALISON CAN NOT RESIST THE DANCE!!!!

FINALLY ... This thread was started in SEPTEMBER and I'm pleased to see that Alison Smith has stepped up to the plate and got the job done.

Fantastic!!!

Now on to the next step :)

It's good to see the funds still exceed the Million required for the JREF MDC! Congratulations :)

[Damien Evans]

This is Great news!

I PLAY THE MUSIC AND ALISON CAN NOT RESIST THE DANCE!!!!

FINALLY ... This thread was started in SEPTEMBER and I'm pleased to see that Alison Smith has stepped up to the plate and got the job done.

Fantastic!!!

Now on to the next step :)

It's good to see the funds still exceed the Million required for the JREF MDC! Congratulations :)

You will never see a cent of it, so make like a tree and leave!

[Chaos]

This is Great news!

I PLAY THE MUSIC AND ALISON CAN NOT RESIST THE DANCE!!!!

FINALLY ... This thread was started in SEPTEMBER and I'm pleased to see that Alison Smith has stepped up to the plate and got the job done.

Fantastic!!!

Now on to the next step :)

It's good to see the funds still exceed the Million required for the JREF MDC! Congratulations :)

And has it also registered in your little troll brain that, back in September, nobody could have provided you with the data for November?

Also, will you finally apologize for making false accusations against JREF, and generally being an utter *******?

[Azrael 5]

I think it's time members voted to ban The Professor.He is clearly a troll and has no purpose other than to start smear campaigns.

[chillzero]

I think it's time members voted to ban The Professor.He is clearly a troll and has no purpose other than to start smear campaigns.

Posting as mod:
It's not up to members who gets banned.
Such comments attempting to start campaigns against a member is itself a breach of the rules. Stop it now.

Post on topic, without personalising the thread against a member.

[Pixel42]

This is Great news!

I PLAY THE MUSIC AND ALISON CAN NOT RESIST THE DANCE!!!!

FINALLY ... This thread was started in SEPTEMBER and I'm pleased to see that Alison Smith has stepped up to the plate and got the job done.
You can't seriously believe that the latest in a series of regular updates that have been going on for years only happened because you asked a question? Surely?

OTOH if you don't even understand the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy, that would actually explain a lot.

[rjh01]

If no-one else can make an intelligent troll comment then I will. That statement is on the Randi.org website. Anyone can create their own website and publish almost any statement they like on it. This includes a statement that they have a $1+ million. It does not show that the money actually exists.

Now I go to bed. I think I will have fun in bed. Dreaming.

[fromdownunder]

This is Great news!

I PLAY THE MUSIC AND ALISON CAN NOT RESIST THE DANCE!!!!

FINALLY ... This thread was started in SEPTEMBER and I'm pleased to see that Alison Smith has stepped up to the plate and got the job done.

Fantastic!!!

Now on to the next step :)

It's good to see the funds still exceed the Million required for the JREF MDC! Congratulations :)

Wow! TP practically has an orgasm over an updated financial report on a Website. And naturally claims the credit for it. I imagine that people with egos like this expect the air to part when they enter a room. You must live a very mundane life if this sort of thing gets you going.

I hope nothing really exciting ever happens to you. Your head would probably explode.

Oh, BTW, for you, there is no "next step". Your challenge "application", if that's the word I am groping for, has been closed.

Norm

[Roma]

Alison Smith always gets the job done, Randi should give her a raise.

[Azrael 5]

Alison Smith always gets the job done, Randi should give her a raise.
Please don't do this. It's an artifact from a printing error in the Dragon*Con flyer, and it's causing problems. Thank you.

[Klimax]

Please don't do this. It's an artifact from a printing error in the Dragon*Con flyer, and it's causing problems. Thank you.

What was there?Problems as inaccuracy or what?(Too late to see original post...)

[Azrael 5]

Please don't do this. It's an artifact from a printing error in the Dragon*Con flyer, and it's causing problems. Thank you.

I was just being humouros/ironic(possibly?)by referencing The Professors insistence at using her full name.I have no idea what you are referencing.:confused:

[zooterkin]

I was just being humouros/ironic(possibly?)by referencing The Professors insistence at using her full name.I have no idea what you are referencing.:confused:

I suspect the point is that it's not her full name, though I'm not sure what problem it's causing.

[Lisa Simpson]

Please stop this derail, before posts get moved, okay?

[biomorph]

How does the current financial crisis affect the Challenge funds?
$1,135,634.79
Obviously not at all.

[The Professor]

Did you guys read the fine print ... You know ... The word DEPOSITS ???????
Take a good look. And while you are at it, did any of you see the difference in the form itself?
Didn't think you did :)

[Azrael 5]

Did you guys read the fine print ... You know ... The word DEPOSITS ???????
Take a good look. And while you are at it, did any of you see the difference in the form itself?
Didn't think you did :)

Look at me!! Looook at meeeee! :)

[Klimax]

Did you guys read the fine print ... You know ... The word DEPOSITS ???????
Take a good look. And while you are at it, did any of you see the difference in the form itself?
Didn't think you did :)

I do not see problem.What about screenshot with marked problem...

[Chaos]

I do not see problem.What about screenshot with marked problem...

I see a problem - a very big problem, in fact: there is nothing of substance for The Professor to whine about, and that´s driving him nuts.

[RoboTimbo]

The Professor, do you like horse burgers that much? You've beaten enough of the poor things to death to start your own fast food chain.

[Azrael 5]

Maybe start a thread Proffessor about the "miracle" of the Hudson river plane crawsh.Another of your non paranormal claims.

Sorry off topic.

[RoboTimbo]

Did you guys read the fine print ... You know ... The word DEPOSITS ???????
Take a good look. And while you are at it, did any of you see the difference in the form itself?
Didn't think you did :)

Not to generalize too much, but don't you often leave out very important details?

You are referring to the line "Cash, deposits and money market funds".

The part you left out was further down, "Interest received" and "Change in market value", $1156.50 and $14,077.78 respectively. Both positive numbers.

Were you trying to leave the impression that JREF had to deposit an additional half million? Or were you under that impression yourself?

Here, have a horse burger. Very tender.

[Seanrmr]

Don't forget the net deposit number that was also a big 0

[RemieV]

New statement posted at:

http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf

[Azrael 5]

The Professor have a look at what you could have won.:)

New statement posted at:

http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf

[RoboTimbo]

Thank you, RemieV. Plus $8600 in a quarter. That would buy a lot of horseburger. So, who's hungry?

[steenkh]

The Professor, is there anything with small print that we need to make note of here?

[The Professor]

Not to generalize too much, but don't you often leave out very important details?

You are referring to the line "Cash, deposits and money market funds".

The part you left out was further down, "Interest received" and "Change in market value", $1156.50 and $14,077.78 respectively. Both positive numbers.

Were you trying to leave the impression that JREF had to deposit an additional half million? Or were you under that impression yourself?

Here, have a horse burger. Very tender.

I am so happy that the JREF is solvent! It did take a rather long time to prove it. But there appears to be a problem.

[zooterkin]

I am so happy that the JREF is solvent! It did take a rather long time to prove it. But there appears to be a problem.

Do go on, don't leave us in suspense. What problem?

[fromdownunder]

Do go on, don't leave us in suspense. What problem?

I think that the problem is a certain attention whore.
Norm

[rjh01]

Another possibility is that he cannot complain any more about this issue. At least for the next week or so.

[Azrael 5]

Seems he is trying the Jim Callahn approach now: post one message a week.He doesn't have any originality.

[steenkh]

I am so happy that the JREF is solvent! It did take a rather long time to prove it. But there appears to be a problem.
Oh, man! You are so predictable!

:dl:

[RoboTimbo]

I am so happy that the JREF is solvent! It did take a rather long time to prove it. But there appears to be a problem.

Yes, you finding things to whine about. You are so last October. Get over yourself. They even make fun of you over at the Green Monster.