Germans think U.S. orchestrated 9/11 attacks?

[UnrepentantSinner]

I'm reading the editorials in the Dallas Morning News and one of the syndicated pieces is by the Washington Post's Richard Cohen. In it he's discussing how Germany views the U.S., or more specifically the Bush administration and GW II. A survey result he mentions says that 20% of all Germans believe the U.S. sponsered the 9/11 attacks to provoke a war. The survey also found that 33% of Germans under 30 thought this to be true.

I'd expect this sort of credulism (with even higher percentages) from the ignorant and superstitous Arab Street, but not from Germany. Have they given up all retension of cold rationalism they're so well known for?

[Cain]

Maybe so. But according to that infamous Washington Post poll as many as 69% of Americans believed Saddam partly responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

Oh, and let's not forget us Americans are three times more likely to believe in the virgin birth than in evolution.

I'd expect this sort of credulism (with even higher percentages) from the ignorant and superstitous Arab Street

Yeah, us white people, as opposed to them A-rabs are far more discerning. I think Paul Kurtz said in an interview that 45% of the French population is either atheist or agnostic, but recall this where 9/11 conspiracy theories originated and thrived (church attendence in France is 1/20 -- much, much lower than our United States).

[American]

No, we sponsored the June 6 attack, 1944. If they need a reminder, I do think we should give it to them. Perhaps we should re-create the event with live ammo, and that would refresh their memory on what is what in the world.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by American
No, we sponsored the June 6 attack, 1944. If they need a reminder, I do think we should give it to them. Perhaps we should re-create the event with live ammo, and that would refresh their memory on what is what in the world.

We should attack France to teach Germany a lesson? Perhaps a brief review of history will clue you in that Germany already knows how to attack France. (Betcha don't know when the 1st time was though...)

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Cain
Maybe so. But according to that infamous Washington Post poll as many as 69% of Americans believed Saddam partly responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

Oh, and let's not forget us Americans are three times more likely to believe in the virgin birth than in evolution.

Yeah, us white people, as opposed to them A-rabs are far more discerning. I think Paul Kurtz said in an interview that 45% of the French population is either atheist or agnostic, but recall this where 9/11 conspiracy theories originated and thrived (church attendence in France is 1/20 -- much, much lower than our United States).

Cain, I know we Americans are terribly credulous. I'm just surprised at the Germans.

As far as the Arabs go, give me a break. Anything critical of the U.S. or Israel is true - period. Didn't you see Mohammed Atta's father insisting his son would not fly planes into buildings, but had no I idea where he was? He couldn't explain how his son who wouldn't do such a thing was no where to be found on the face of the Earth, but he just knew it was a Mossad/CIA plot that flew the planes into the buildings.

[Cain]

I think in _Atheism, Ayn Rand, and other Heresies_, George H. Smith recounts entering a left-wing bookstore and picking up a copy of I.F. Stone's (??) publication. It featured a photograph of US soldiers proudly holding up the decapitated heads of some Vietnamese. "This has to be a fake," he assured himself, and apparently scrutinized every inch of the picture. He concluded it was authentic, of course, but not without considerable resistence.

As far as the Arabs go, give me a break. Anything critical of the U.S. or Israel is true - period.

Whatever. And CNN reported that some Iraqis thought US soldiers' sunglasses allowed them to see through women's clothes. It's all too easy for us to the errors of others. Christians have no difficulty identifying historical errors and internal contradictions in the Qu'ran, and vice versa.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Cain
Whatever. And CNN reported that some Iraqis thought US soldiers' sunglasses allowed them to see through women's clothes.

Yes, in a report detailing how Urban Legends and Rumor (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/07/nyt.tierney/index.html) are the primary method of information gathering for Iraqis.

Sweltering soldiers have tried dispelling the myths about their gear by letting Iraqis touch their vests and try on their sunglasses, but some legends will not die.

"I let a kid put on my sunglasses, and he was still convinced they had X-ray vision," said Sgt. Stephen Roach, a soldier from Lufkin, Tex. "He kept saying to me, `Turn it on, turn it on.' "

But this heat is killing me, let's get back to Germany.

[Cain]

:rolleyes: (The rolleyes emoticon is invaluable!!)

I hope you're not under the mistaken impression that I actively disbelieve the CNN report cited. Before you pull a JamesM* take a gander at the sentences that immediately follow: "It's all too easy for us to [see] the errors of others. Christians have no difficulty identifying historical errors and internal contradictions in the Qu'ran, and vice versa." That missing verb was important, but so is context.


Okay, so a fair percentage of Germans believe in a silly conspiracy; and A-rabs have their own fantasies. But we too have comforting myths that cause the rest of the world to giggle.



*This offends the ear because his screen name sucks.**

**You shouldn't be sub-vocalizing what you read anyway.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Cain
Okay, so a fair percentage of Germans believe in a silly conspiracy; and A-rabs have their own fantasies. But we too have comforting myths that cause the rest of the world to giggle.


So it's all have a Coke and teach the world to sing in perfect harmony on a hilltop because we have credulous people here in the states? I'm sorry, but that's not very compelling an argument.

I'm surprised that the Germans would buy this crap because the ones I met there tended to be more skeptical. Hell, I've always thought that the ones who said they assumed the Jews were being relocated to the East instead of to death camps were telling the truth. "Mein Gott! Der ist no vay our goffernmint is killingk zee Zhews in zee East."

And while I'm at it, I haven't even done a web search to verify Cohen's comments. I was just wondering if anyone else had heard about/read about this.

[Cain]

So it's all have a Coke and teach the world to sing in perfect harmony on a hilltop because we have credulous people here in the states? I'm sorry, but that's not very compelling an argument.

What are you talking about? You could not possibly be responding to me because that's the most absurd straw man I've ever seen.


OFF-TOPIC:
Anyway, I'm browsing your glossary/FAQ and I see no mention of the "You're a Goddamn F**king Moron" award, arguably the most celebrated and distinguished prize given on these forums.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Cain
What are you talking about? You could not possibly be responding to me because that's the most absurd straw man I've ever seen.

Wow, you were right up above. The rolleyes is a very useful emotie. :rolleyes:


OFF-TOPIC:
Anyway, I'm browsing your glossary/FAQ and I see no mention of the "You're a Goddamn F**king Moron" award, arguably the most celebrated and distinguished prize given on these forums.

When you formalize it and have a nomination and voting thread, it'll join the list. I can't link to your sig line. ;)

[Flo]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
I'm reading the editorials in the Dallas Morning News and one of the syndicated pieces is by the Washington Post's Richard Cohen. In it he's discussing how Germany views the U.S., or more specifically the Bush administration and GW II. A survey result he mentions says that 20% of all Germans believe the U.S. sponsered the 9/11 attacks to provoke a war. The survey also found that 33% of Germans under 30 thought this to be true.

I'd expect this sort of credulism (with even higher percentages) from the ignorant and superstitous Arab Street, but not from Germany. Have they given up all retension of cold rationalism they're so well known for?


This particular silly belief is shocking you because it is about an event involving you and your country. As others pointed, no country, society, race, and religion is devoid of silly, and potentially dangerous, beliefs, one being that Arabs are particularly ignorant and superstitious, unlike us :rolleyes:

Just goes to show how it is difficult to separate the important from the personnal...

[ZeeGerman]

I think it's time to get a German point of view into this discussion, isn't it :)

Let's get the sources straight first. The article of Cohen US refers to can be found here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3432-2003Oct22.html)

I do agree with most of the article, but the paragraph in question needs some commentation.

Of course, the Germans are hardly blameless. Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder told George W. Bush that he would support U.S. policy and then went home to discover his people were opposed. A politician in such a jam can either lead or be led. Schroeder chose to be led, winning reelection on a platform that pandered to anti-Americanism and, maybe, to Teutonic moon-baying. About 20 percent of all Germans -- and one in three younger than 30 -- believe that the United States sponsored the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to provoke a war

1. I don't agree how Schröder handled the Iraq business in the early stages (unfortunately during election time) namely to completely rule out German participation in any military action against Iraq. Taking pressure off Iraq wasn't really helpful.
However, Schröder promised support to the US in the aftermath of 9/11 and the US did get that support in Afghanistan (and is still getting it to date). Support for the Iraq policy was never promised as far as I know.

2. I like to point out that Cohen fails to present a source for his 20% and 33% numbers of believers in a US driven conspiracy behind 9/11. I'd really like to see some supporting data.

Anyway, from my personal experience, 20% seems pretty high for me. I haven't met a single person who seriously believes that. I can't comment on the group of people below 30 though, being far too close to getting 40, that's not really my peer group anymore :cool:

We have of course our fair amount of gullible woo woos in Germany, as does any other country. Generalizing from these people to the whole of Germany is certainly nonsense.

Zee

[Cain]

Those nomination threads are a travesty. Besides, I'm not about to hand control over to the uneducated, bleating masses. I'm handing out an Oscar, not a People's Choice award.

You could always link to my posts http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=161387 Or my profile. I suppose I could create a special thread each week announcing the winner... but who wants to see that? It works best in a sig.

________________________

Back to the coolest emoticon:

So it's all have a Coke and teach the world to sing in perfect harmony on a hilltop because we have credulous people here in the states? I'm sorry, but that's not very compelling an argument.

:rolleyes:

I agree that's not a very compelling argument. Not compelling at all. What's more, I'm glad I never made it. I challenge you to identify the text that says or implies otherwise.

[ZeeGerman]

Oh, I found some sources now. All in German of course so I'll try to sum it up:

"Do you think it is possible that the US government is behind the 9/11 attacks?"

West Germany: 16 %
East Germany : 29 %

Below 30: about one third, no info about distribution in east and west.

Keeping in mind that
a) the question asked about a possibility and
b) that the people in east Germany have been told for decades that America is the source of all evil and
c) that the poll took only a sample of 1000 (although representative - whatever that means) opinions and
d) that the poll took place in July 2003, after the US government had lost a fair amount of credibility and sympathy due to Bush and Co.'s anti European rethorics and the apparent lack of WMD in Iraq...

I can live with it (although I don't like it)

Zee

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman
I think it's time to get a German point of view into this discussion, isn't it :)

Yes! I've been waiting for you guys for hours! Thanks for your comments. I wanted to wait until I had some Germans offering their 2 Pf (assuming they still have some) before I did a google. Apparently this survey (the results were published in Die Zeit - that's The Time(s) for us English speakers) has garnered a lot more attention on the web than I have been made aware of.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=germans+believe+u.s.+behind+9%2F11+attacks

Cain,

Link to the above post in the Glossary.

Can you familiarize yourself with the word hyperbole?

I made hyperbole out of what I preceived to be a distilled gist of your response. "They belive weird stuff, we believe weird stuff - so what."

If you want to clarify your gist, please do so.

[a_unique_person]

Killjoy.

Now, if you want to see if Texans think the US should invade Kyrgyzstan, look here

http://www.abc.net.au/cnnnn/video/s02ep10/story16.ram

Needs RealMedia

[Cain]

Can you familiarize yourself with the word hyperbole?

No, I can't!

I made hyperbole out of what I preceived to be a distilled gist of your response. "They belive weird stuff, we believe weird stuff - so what."

I'd tack a question mark on the end of that.

If you want to clarify your gist, please do so.

Sure. It's a disturbing development but ( and ZeeGerman can correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think young east Germans are the power brokers of that society. What's even more interesting, I think James Randi in an older issue of _Free Inquiry_ said East Germans were the *least* superstitous people in the industrialized world (the United States is by far the most superstitous). None of this means we should content ourselves with singing songs on hilltops and start drinking over-priced sugar water produced by an evil multi-national corporation; rather, it just says that perspective is usually a good thing.

Finally, back on more important topics. You never use the words "prestigious," "best," "distinguished," or "celebrated" in regards to my award. In point of fact, you make it sound as though I just made it up on a lark -- which I did, but still. The "You're a Goddamn F**king Moron" award, I think, easily outclasses and outshines other (dis)honors (no disrespect to the individuals -- who I cannot recall at the moment -- issuing prizes -- that I cannot bother to remember).

[Chaos]

@ZeeGerman:
Couldn´t have said it better myself. Thanks.

@US:
No, we don´t have Mark and Pfennig any more. (People called Mark go through hard times these past two years...) It is Euro and Cent now. (looks like Monopoly money...)

I have met exactly two persons who believe that anyone else but Al Quaida is behind 9/11 - one who blames the Mossad, one who blames the CIA. And I know one additional German who is convinced that nothing is like the official reports about it. That is, out of several dozen people I´ve been talking to since 9/11 and perhaps a hundred more I met on the internet.

So, from my completely unrepresentative survey, the conspiracy woo-woo followers are about 2% of the population. And for every such woo-woo I found several people who vigorously contradicted them.

Conclusion:
We have our residue of conspiracy theory freaks here, much like any country has, but it is nothing out of the ordinary, and we also have a healthy amount of people who practice skeptical, critical thinking.

[Flo]

Originally posted by Chaos
nothing[/i] is like the official reports about it. That is, out of several dozen people I´ve been talking to since 9/11 and perhaps a hundred more I met on the internet.

So, from my completely unrepresentative survey, the conspiracy woo-woo followers are about 2% of the population. And for every such woo-woo I found several people who vigorously contradicted them.

Conclusion:
We have our residue of conspiracy theory freaks here, much like any country has, but it is nothing out of the ordinary, and we also have a healthy amount of people who practice skeptical, critical thinking.


Exactly the same applies in my own completely unrepresentative survey in France and Switzerland (where the only person I met who believes the CIA might be involved happens to be British).

[UnrepentantSinner]

Chaos and ZG, I'm glad to hear your clarification on the issue. I'm half tempted to write a letter to the editor regarding this particular point. I do agree with a lot of what Cohen wrote in the article. I lived in Germany in the 1980s, a high time for the Cold War and German (West)/American solidarity. I hate that our relationship has been hurt, even in the least, by GeeDubyah's revenge war.

Flo, your message is quite heartening. I will apologize for the latest installment of The Real World.

[Flo]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Flo, your message is quite heartening. I will apologize for the latest installment of The Real World.

:confused:

[American]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


We should attack France to teach Germany a lesson? Perhaps a brief review of history will clue you in that Germany already knows how to attack France. (Betcha don't know when the 1st time was though...)


I obviously meant occupied France. It was filled with Nazis, remember? Sheesh. Ya, I'm a history dunce. OK. :rolleyes:

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by American

Sheesh. Ya, I'm a history dunce. OK. :rolleyes:

No need to be overly specific in your self-assessment.
:D

Zee

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Killjoy.

Now, if you want to see if Texans think the US should invade Kyrgyzstan, look here

http://www.abc.net.au/cnnnn/video/s02ep10/story16.ram

Needs RealMedia

I don't use RealMedia because they're an evil company. Is there another article referring to it? If not, can you summarize?

[Iamme]

On CNN last night, Wesley Clark is also saying that Bush had his sights set on Iraq even before the evidence was gathered. I don't want to misquote something here, but the jist was (I believe) that Bush did not level with us and was not truthful about Iraq from the get-go and had it figured he was going to invade no matter what.

Does anyone else have a better spin on this story?l

[epepke]

Originally posted by LFTKBS


I don't use RealMedia because they're an evil company. Is there another article referring to it? If not, can you summarize?

It's a bunch of Australians with a moderately clever fake CNN set interviewing some crackers, telling them that Bush wants to invade Kyrgyzstan, and asking them if they support it.

Haw. Haw. Haw.

I'd like to take a camera crew to Canada and get people to say stupid things about the U.S.

[plindboe]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman
"Do you think it is possible that the US government is behind the 9/11 attacks?"
Ah, well, this perfectly explains the result of the poll. I might even have answered "yes" to this question myself. It's possible that a giant pink elephant was behind the attacks, however such a scenario is of course EXTREMELY unlikely. Everything is possible, except squared circles and that sort of stuff.

This example perfectly shows not to trust any poll one bit before you have at least heard a little about how it was conducted and especially how the questions were posed. This question in the poll was posed in a way to make sure it would give an interesting result, and was probably deliberate, to make sure it would get plenty of attention. It's such a shame that people read the results of polls like this and take it as facts. It's a lesson for us all. When somebody mentions a poll result, let's ask about details on how the poll was conducted, before we start discussing the results.

[shuize]

Germans think U.S. orchestrated 9/11 attacks

And Germans also think David Hasselhoff is a really good singer ...

I rest my case.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by epepke


It's a bunch of Australians with a moderately clever fake CNN set interviewing some crackers, telling them that Bush wants to invade Kyrgyzstan, and asking them if they support it.

Haw. Haw. Haw.

I'd like to take a camera crew to Canada and get people to say stupid things about the U.S.

I wasn't trying to say that just Americans can be stupid, just that not only the Germans are stupid, which is the topic. If you look further down the list of videos, there is one where they are in Australia pretending to do a news story on a street robbery. They tell the person that they got there too late to interview a real witness, but wonder if the person they are talking to might help them out by pretending to be an eye witness. Australians can be just as dumb.