Truth Movement origins anti-Semitic?

[MaGZ]

I seems to be a common shibboleth here that the Truth Movement was started by anti-Semites. I don’t buy this. The first to question what happened began in France with the book The Big Lie. Later, David Ray Griffin and then the Loose Change gang came onboard. None of these can be considered anti-Semitic.

So when you make this claim, who are you talking about?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

David Ray Griffin and the Loose Change crew both make heavy use of Holocaust denier Christopher Bollyn as a source of information.

I'd consider both Griffin and LC as anti-semitic on those grounds.

[liverleef]

There may have been Anti-Semites involved in the truth movements origins but I never really thought about it. I haven't seen many people here state that the movement was founded by Anti-Semites but I may be wrong. What I do know is that there is a strong Anti-Semitic streak in the truth movement. A simple google search for 911 jews or 911 zionist demonstrates this.

[MaGZ]

David Ray Griffin and the Loose Change crew both make heavy use of Holocaust denier Christopher Bollyn as a source of information.

I'd consider both Griffin and LC as anti-semitic on those grounds.

I see, guilt by association.
Do you have a copy of Mein Kampf on your shelf?

[gtc]

You asked for evidence that anti-semites are behind the truth movement - you got it; one of the primary sources of the truth movement is an anti-semite.

As a member of the truth movement, with anti-semitic views and (no doubt) a copy of Mein Kampf on your shelf, shouldn't you be hoping the movement was started by people like you? And shouldn't you be hoping he had a copy of Mein Kampf on his shelf?

[Brannagyn]

Looks like I missed this one. Should have been in the sub-forum perhaps...then again its a CT about the 9/11 truth movement itself rather than 9/11.....anyway, the same topic came up in a thread there (again) and rather than repeating myself will just link to the relevant post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4077675#post4077675).

[SDC]

Practically any conspiracy theory, or movement, sooner or later ties into anti-semitic views and, well, noisemakers. I won't bother to elaborate because it is so basic. (It's almost like saying, "oh look, the sun rose in the east today!")

That said ... and I feel really icky now ... I agree with Magz that 9/11 conspiracism as such did not have its birth as an anti-semitic theory/ movement. It developed, inevitably, into that.

[Brannagyn]

David Ray Griffin and the Loose Change crew both make heavy use of Holocaust denier Christopher Bollyn as a source of information.

I'd consider both Griffin and LC as anti-semitic on those grounds.

I would not say so myself but perhaps you consider the ADL are the best people to determine anti-semetism?

If so, presumably CAIR would then be the best people to determine anti-Arab sentiment.

As CAIR describes Littlegreenfootballs as “a vicious, anti-Muslim hate site”, the fact that you have used it as a source and consider the use of racist sources to be itself evidence of racism…well, I guess that would mean you have a more personal understanding of the issue than the rest of us.

Not forgetting the obvious fact that racism directed against Arabs is itself ‘anti-semetic’.

Clearly this is not an argument for either SoT's racism or even that of LGF. The point is that attempting to represent the use of a source as support for the ideological views of that source goes against the most basic of academic principles. If the information provided is inaccurate it can be challenged on those grounds. If it is being used in a racist manner it can be challenged on those grounds. Apart from the irrationality of it, if scholars had to avoid referencing writers with some form of unpleasant personal opinion their available sources would be cut in half.

As an aside, even allowing for proven racists, to quote Chomsky "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."

i.e. let them speak and judge them based on the fallacy of the thoughts they express not some abstract label.

I could have referenced David Ben Gurion's "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." but then, by your reasoning, I'd be a Zionist and that would just confuse things no end.

[8den]

I seems to be a common shibboleth here that the Truth Movement was started by anti-Semites. I don’t buy this.


I thought you'd be pleased.

[MaGZ]

You asked for evidence that anti-semites are behind the truth movement - you got it; one of the primary sources of the truth movement is an anti-semite.

As a member of the truth movement, with anti-semitic views and (no doubt) a copy of Mein Kampf on your shelf, shouldn't you be hoping the movement was started by people like you? And shouldn't you be hoping he had a copy of Mein Kampf on his shelf?

I’m not associated with the Truth Movement, if that is what you are asking?

[gtc]

I’m not associated with the Truth Movement, if that is what you are asking?

Yes, you are.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I would not say so myself but perhaps you consider the ADL are the best people to determine anti-semetism?

If so, presumably CAIR would then be the best people to determine anti-Arab sentiment.

CAIR has ties to islamic extremist terror groups and has been named by US federal prosecutors as "unindicted co-conspirators" in their investigations of terrorist financing. As such, their opinion of who is anti-whatever is irrelevant.

The rest of your post is therefore null and void.

[8den]

I’m not associated with the Truth Movement, if that is what you are asking?

Your username stands for Missile at Ground Zero. You have been exposed as an anti semite on tis forum.

[RedIbis]

David Ray Griffin and the Loose Change crew both make heavy use of Holocaust denier Christopher Bollyn as a source of information.

I'd consider both Griffin and LC as anti-semitic on those grounds.

Completely ridiculous logic. That's like saying anyone who drives a Ford or enjoys the poetry of Ezra Pound is an anti-semite.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Completely ridiculous logic. That's like saying anyone who drives a Ford or enjoys the poetry of Ezra Pound is an anti-semite.

Holocaust deniers like Killtown and Christopher Bollyn came to the conclusion that 9/11 was an inside job, not because the evidence indicates it (no such evidence actually exists) but because of the hatred of the jewish people and thier belief that jews are at the root of everything bad that happens.

David Ray Griffin and the Loose Change crew took their information these people and spread it, knowing full well who and what Bollyn and Killtown are.

Griffin, Avery, Rowe and Bermas have never shown even the slightest hint that they are bothered by Killtown and Bollyns psychotic hatreds. They may not care for jews one way or the other themselves. But they also obviously don't care that they are helping to spread anti-semitism.

[JoeyDonuts]

Perhaps to some degree, movements denying the official version of things attract the same kind of person.

Obviously not everyone who owns a copy of Loose Change also has The Protocols of The Learned Elders of Zion on their bookshelf. But it wouldn't surprise me one iota if some of the folks are simply contrarian in nature.

I don't have much interaction with truthers anymore. I used to go point-by-point with them until I realized how genuinely futile reasoning with a true believer is.

Nowadays whenever any sort of "truth" related talk comes up, I fake a violent diarrhea attack and promptly scoot.

[MaGZ]

Holocaust deniers like Killtown and Christopher Bollyn came to the conclusion that 9/11 was an inside job, not because the evidence indicates it (no such evidence actually exists) but because of the hatred of the jewish people and thier belief that jews are at the root of everything bad that happens.

David Ray Griffin and the Loose Change crew took their information these people and spread it, knowing full well who and what Bollyn and Killtown are.

Griffin, Avery, Rowe and Bermas have never shown even the slightest hint that they are bothered by Killtown and Bollyns psychotic hatreds. They may not care for jews one way or the other themselves. But they also obviously don't care that they are helping to spread anti-semitism.

Which of these four are Jews? Answer please.

[Minadin]

Perhaps to some degree, movements denying the official version of things attract the same kind of person.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. I think that many anti-semitic types are already of the conspiratiorial mindset and therefore are pre-disposed to believing in other conspiracy theories, such as those surrounding the events of 9/11, in addition to their jewish-world-domination type conspiracies.

Other "truthers" get implicated in that they seem to like to use these rather dubious and often agenda-driven sources, because it fits with their fantasy, without pausing to consider the underlying motivation or how it will reflect upon them.

[DC]

David Ray Griffin and the Loose Change crew both make heavy use of Holocaust denier Christopher Bollyn as a source of information.

I'd consider both Griffin and LC as anti-semitic on those grounds.

9) Most of the 9/11 truth seekers are Zionists
Jews make up a small portion of America and Europe, and Zionist Jews are an even smaller percentage, but they dominate the 9/11 truth movement. Could this be because Zionists are more interested in exposing the 9/11 crime? Smith thinks not.

It is more likely because they are trying to fool people into thinking that they are the truth seekers, when in reality they are diverting everybody's attention away from Israel and onto Bush, Cheney, the CIA, and a few military leaders.

Please consider that the people you trust to expose corruption, such as Amy Goodman (of Democracy Now), Alex Jones (www.infowars.com), Webster Tarpley (author of 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA), Dave von Kleist (The PowerHour radio show), and hundreds or thousands of others are deceiving us.

Why would those people lie? Here is an introduction:
To get away with crimes, pretend to be a crime fighter

Examples of Truth Seekers who are Zionists:
• Crypto Zionists
• What are Handlers?

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_ZionSummary.html

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-Rowe-Bermas-Hufschmid-phonecall.html

[Dave Rogers]

Do you have a copy of Mein Kampf on your shelf?

No. Can I borrow yours?

Dave

[Dave Rogers]

Completely ridiculous logic. That's like saying anyone who drives a Ford or enjoys the poetry of Ezra Pound is an anti-semite.

No, you're missing the point. If a racist fabricates a story with the aim of slandering an ethnic group, and it is repeatedly shown that there are no grounds for the claims made, then anyone who repeats the same story and refuses to examine the reasons for the lack of evidence behind it is at best an unwitting accomplice to racist libel. To give a more relevant example, anyone who bases an argument on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and refuses even to consider the evidence that this document is a fake, is furthering an anti-Semitic agenda whether they realise it or not.

Dave

[Walter Ego]

I would not say truthers are inherently anti-Semitic, but they often have a cozy relation with anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers as you can see in the video. And a lot of anti-Semites were active in the early days of the movement.

Sb-qXrQ2v3E

[Thunder]

One of the first lies about 9-11 is that 4,000 jews didnt go to work that morning.

[Drudgewire]

One of the first lies about 9-11 is that 4,000 jews didnt go to work that morning.


It's the standard in building CD conspiracies. For Oklahoma City it was ATF agents who all recieved pages telling them to stay home. :rolleyes:

[MaGZ]

One of the first lies about 9-11 is that 4,000 jews didnt go to work that morning.

That was picked up and spread by the Hezbollah satellite news network after an ADL report said 4,000 Israelis were in the New York City area.

[SDC]

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_ZionSummary.html

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-Rowe-Bermas-Hufschmid-phonecall.html

DC, are you aware that these are professionally anti-Semitic sites? I understand English is not your first language. I think it is not appropriate for you, in any case, to be citing anti-Semitic web sites as some sort of believable evidence.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Which of these four are Jews? Answer please.

In the real world? None of them (to my knowledge).

In your little lala-land? Probably all of them.

Myself, I'm blonde-haired, green-eyed, scottish-danish on my moms side, english-dutch on my dads, mormon family for 7 generations and protestant before that but to you ~I~ am probably jewish (though my name means "Mountain of Strength" in hebrew).

[DC]

DC, are you aware that these are professionally anti-Semitic sites? I understand English is not your first language. I think it is not appropriate for you, in any case, to be citing anti-Semitic web sites as some sort of believable evidence.

I know , i took a look at the real antisemites and holocause deniers.
i just had a look what they say about the TM, and it is pretty telling, dont you think?

[SDC]

In the real world? None of them (to my knowledge).

In your little lala-land? Probably all of them.

Myself, I'm blonde-haired, green-eyed, scottish-danish on my moms side, english-dutch on my dads, mormon family for 7 generations and protestant before that but to you ~I~ am probably jewish (though my name means "Mountain of Strength" in hebrew).


Actually, there is reason to believe that the Mormons are secret Jews. Probably among the 10 lost tribes. Hence their use of "gentiles" to refer to everyone else.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Actually, there is reason to believe that the Mormons are secret Jews. Probably among the 10 lost tribes. Hence their use of "gentiles" to refer to everyone else.

Actually, there's a funny story behind that. Simon Bamburger was a jew campaigning for governor of Utah when he was approached by a mormon and told "There is no way I'm ever going to vote for a damned gentile" (it was the 1930s and many Utahans were themselves survivors of anti-mormon violence, it wasn't anti-semitism so much as mormon distrust of outsiders). Bamberger was intially taken aback by this, but he quicked regained his composure, smiled and said, "As a jew, I've been called every name in the book, but I never imagined that anyone would ever call ME a gentile!"

The joke worked, it helped break the ice. It was picked up by every paper in Utah and helped earn him the support of influential members of the churches Quorum of The Twelve and Bamberger became the second jewish-american elected to a state governorship (the first was Moses Alexander of Idaho, another mormon stronghold).

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I know , i took a look at the real antisemites and holocause deniers.
i just had a look what they say about the TM, and it is pretty telling, dont you think?

It's more telling that both the rabid anti-semites you linked to are themselves 9/11 twoofers.

In fact the title of the Bradofrd-Smith article you linked is "Why do we believe Zionists are the masterminds of the September 11 attack?"

But you made no mention of either of these facts. That's very dishonest of you, DC.

[DC]

It's more telling that both the rabid anti-semites you linked to are themselves 9/11 twoofers.

In fact the title of the Bradofrd-Smith article you linked is "Why do we believe Zionists are the masterminds of the September 11 attack?"

But you made no mention of either of these facts. That's very dishonest of you, DC.

what?

doesnt sound like they would chant "9/11 was an inside job"

and i didnt go true the whole homepage, not even the whole article......

[Sword_Of_Truth]

what?

doesnt sound like they would chant "9/11 was an inside job"

They would, and do.

Your use of rabid anti-semitic twoofers as "proof" anti-semitism in the twoof movement is over estimated is... amusing.

and i didnt go true the whole homepage, not even the whole article......

You can't seriously tell me you missed the TITLE.

[DC]

They would, and do.

Your use of rabid anti-semitic twoofers as "proof" anti-semitism in the twoof movement is over estimated is... amusing.



You can't seriously tell me you missed the TITLE.

what should i have said about the title?

and they do not say Inside job you freaking liar. go read their crap .....

[SDC]

DC, I have trouble following your posts and points. I'm sorry, but your command of English could be much better. As for advising others to read anti-semitic nonsense, I've read enough in my life and don't want more. If I do, for some ungodly reason, I will know how to find it. Obviously Sword of Truth speaks for himself, but these are my reasons for not wanting to look at what you linked to.

[peteweaver]

The involvement of the American Free Press has not exactly helped the troof movement avoid accusations of Anti Semitism. Neither has the early involvement of Eric Hufschmid or Chris Bollyn.

[DC]

DC, I have trouble following your posts and points. I'm sorry, but your command of English could be much better. As for advising others to read anti-semitic nonsense, I've read enough in my life and don't want more. If I do, for some ungodly reason, I will know how to find it. Obviously Sword of Truth speaks for himself, but these are my reasons for not wanting to look at what you linked to.

Yes indeed my English sucks, thats because i am swiss, and never realy learned english, it was more like learning by doing.

My point is actually pretty simple.
there are attempts to put all conspiracy theorists under one label aka truth Movement.
and sometimes this is totaly laughable, when they try to put people in that TM that are actually saying the TM is covering up the truth.
They want to put the "Mossad jobers" together with the "Inside Jobers" and they dont care that they cant stand eachother.

that was the whole point actaully, and i didnt want to spread the antisemites crap, just pointed to 2 links that are easy to find when googling a little bit.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

what should i have said about the title?

and they do not say Inside job you freaking liar. go read their crap .....

Eric Hufschmid and Darryl Bradford-Smith are notorious inside jobbers.

You are just lying through your teeth, Dic.

[cwalner]

That was picked up and spread by the Hezbollah satellite news network after an ADL report said 4,000 Israelis were in the New York City area.

And this is news why? I would guess that on any given day roughly 4,000 Israelis are in the NYC area. It is not uncommon for American jews to have dual citizinship with Israel but retain residency in the US. Considering the large jewish population of the NYC area, the Isreali diplomats to the UN and NYC conselate, and tourism, claiming there are 4000 Isreali citizens in NYC does not seem far fetched on any day of any year so claiming that as fact about 09/11/01 is meaningless.

Please provide a link to the ADL report that Hezbollah picked up. For my reasons above, I find it highly unlikely that the ADL would have made a specific point of that for that day.

[SDC]

Yes indeed my English sucks, thats because i am swiss, and never realy learned english, it was more like learning by doing.

My point is actually pretty simple.
there are attempts to put all conspiracy theorists under one label aka truth Movement.
and sometimes this is totaly laughable, when they try to put people in that TM that are actually saying the TM is covering up the truth.
They want to put the "Mossad jobers" together with the "Inside Jobers" and they dont care that they cant stand eachother.

that was the whole point actaully, and i didnt want to spread the antisemites crap, just pointed to 2 links that are easy to find when googling a little bit.

OK, thanks, I understand your point now. My suggestion is to say more, instead of less -- I know it's more work for you, but when you post just a few words or just a couple of lines, I often just don't know what you mean.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

They want to put the "Mossad jobers" together with the "Inside Jobers" and they dont care that they cant stand eachother.

More of the typical lack of honesty we've come to expect from DC.

"MOSSAD jobbers" are all "inside jobbers". There's no one among the rabid antisemites who doesn't think that MOSSAD wasn't heavily assisted by insiders in the US.

The claim that the US government is effectively run by jews is central to their worldviews.

And yes, they do exert tremendous influence over the twoof movement as a whole. As pointed out about, Steven Jones, the Loose Change crew and David Ray Griffin have all made their unholy aliances with the neo-nazis.

[DC]

More of the typical lack of honesty we've come to expect from DC.

"MOSSAD jobbers" are all "inside jobbers". There's no one among the rabid antisemites who doesn't think that MOSSAD wasn't heavily assisted by insiders in the US.

The claim that the US government is effectively run by jews is central to their worldviews.

And yes, they do exert tremendous influence over the twoof movement as a whole. As pointed out about, Steven Jones, the Loose Change crew and David Ray Griffin have all made their unholy aliances with the neo-nazis.

liar.......
i posted a link that totaly contradicts your slander......

But hey i dont care, belive what you want :)

[Sword_Of_Truth]

liar.......
i posted a link that totaly contradicts your slander......

You posted links to people who hate jews and think 9/11 was an inside job as proof that inside jobbers don't hate jews.

Don't get angry at me because you shot your own dumb self in the foot.

[dudalb]

I have to cut some slack for DC since English is not his Cradle language, but I am amazed he is still able to walk the number of times he had shot himself in his foot.

[MaGZ]

The involvement of the American Free Press has not exactly helped the troof movement avoid accusations of Anti Semitism. Neither has the early involvement of Eric Hufschmid or Chris Bollyn.

The AFP would like to hijack the Truth Movement and turn it into another Willis Carto front.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The AFP would like to hijack the Truth Movement and turn it into another Willis Carto front.

And there you have it, DC.

A confession from a Nazi that the nazis are using the twoof movement to further their own ends.

Game, set and match.

[Minadin]

The problem is that many of us have graduated from pointing this out so that the "truthers" weren't being used, to not caring, to feeling that since most of them don't feel the need to disassociate themselves, they welcome the jew-haters.

[dudalb]

And there you have it, DC.

A confession from a Nazi that the nazis are using the twoof movement to further their own ends.

Game, set and match.

Actually, what you are seeing here is the infighting among the Neo Nazi groups. Carto is hated because he has made clear he sees himself as the Leader of the Neo Nazi groups in the US, and other Neo Nazis want to be the Fuehrer.
It is like watching kids on the playground:

"I am the Fuehrer!'"

"No Fair! You were the Fuehrer last week! It's my turn!".

It's lucky that they spend so much time fighting each other. Keeps them from more serious mischief.