Baby Nemesis
28th September 2008, 02:41 PM
I found a post in Abandon All Hope (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=124172) recently that was the first thing that's made me intrigued about what the issues surrounding the 9/11 conspiracy theories and the "Truth Movement" actually are. It alleged that someone I'd never heard of before called Barry Jennings had been hounded, possibly literally to death, by the Truth Movement. I wondered what could have happened! After investigating, it seems that what happened was that he's been portrayed as someone supporting the case that the American government deliberately caused explosions in a tower block to destroy it, and that he saw people who'd been killed by them in the lobby of the building, when he never said any such thing. I had a look in Google and found an interesting BBC article about a programme the BBC aired a couple of months ago called The Conspiracy Files: Q&A: The collapse of Tower 7 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/conspiracy_files/7434230.stm)
"The official version, the conspiracy theories and the evidence surrounding the collapse of World Trade Centre 7 on September 11."
Interesting. I didn't know who any of these personalities were before. I didn't even know there was a third tower, World Trade Center 7. Before I came here, I had no idea there were people running radio shows to promote things like the idea that the American government were responsible for what happened on 9/11. Or whatever they do. When I read the name Dylan Avery here, I assumed he was essentially just some administrator of some obscure forum that a lot of people here didn't like because they disagreed with him and he could be unpleasant. I didn't realise he was famous enough to be interviewed by the BBC! But the article says:
There is no evidence that anyone died in Tower 7 on 9/11. However, conspiracy talk shows and websites seized on a recent interview for Loose Change with the crucial eyewitness Barry Jennings.
The writer and director of Loose Change, Dylan Avery, told The Conspiracy Files: "The amount of detail that Barry gave us in this interview was unreal. He says he was stepping over dead bodies in the lobby."
Barry Jennings himself disagrees with their interpretation of his words. Barry Jennings told the BBC: "I didn't like the way you know I was portrayed. They portrayed me as seeing dead bodies. I never saw dead bodies"
Dylan Avery is adamant that he didn't take anything out of context. He played The Conspiracy Files a recording of Barry Jennings words: "The fire fighter who took us down kept saying do not look down. And I kept saying why.
"He said do not look down. And we're stepping over people and you know you could feel when you're stepping over people."
However, Barry Jennings told the BBC: "I said it felt like I was stepping over them but I never saw any.
"And you know that's the way they portrayed me and I didn't appreciate that so I told them to pull my interview."
I listened to the short interview the BBC did with him that's linked to in the thread in AAH that made me interested in this, and at the very beginning, they had a clip from an Alex Jones show where it said there were "dead bodies all over the lobby". If they were trying to make out that that's what Barry Jennings said, then they were definitely twisting it. If there were people on talk shows all over America saying he actually saw dead bodies, and lots of them, when he only said it felt like he was stepping over "people", possibly only meaning a few, and it's obvious he didn't see them because he said more than once in the interview with Dylan Avery that the firefighter kept telling him not to look down and he kept asking why, rather than looking down so he could find out, that's terrible, especially if they're trying to use what he said to prove those people died in a government-caused explosion, something he himself never suggested. If he ever heard any talk shows that did that, and he wasn't able to contact them while the show was going on and correct their accounts, that must have been stressful, to know he was being misrepresented so badly, especially when he realised the amount or types of people it might bring him into conflict with!
I also came across the audio interview Dylan Avery did with him that would have been in the film if Barry Jennings hadn't asked for it to be removed, which seemed to be on a site run by Dylan Avery himself, who implied on the website that the version of events Barry Jennings had told the BBC was different to the one he'd given in the interview with him. But it seemed he was referring to the thing about stepping over people, so it definitely wasn't different. It was what Dylan Avery interpreted it to mean that made the difference.
He said on the website that he'd phoned Barry Jennings up, and Barry Jennings had asked him to take his interview out of his film because what he'd said was being interpreted to mean he saw dead bodies when that was a misrepresentation, and he said he was being harassed and even threatened with the loss of his job.
It's unjust if he was threatened with the loss of his job because his bosses thought he, as quite a high-profile figure, had misrepresented the truth and publicised that there were dead people when there weren't, when what really happened was that what he said had been misrepresented by others who had publicised their misrepresentations! Dylan Avery also said Barry Jennings complained about the amount of phone calls he'd been getting about the issue. I sincerely hope they weren't accusatory phone calls made by debunkers who ironically believed what was being said by people like Alex Jones about the claims Barry Jennings was making, and wanted to challenge Jennings, to expose what they thought of as his lies, and condemn him for supposedly lying!!
It's feasible that Dylan Avery could have made an honest mistake to begin with about Barry Jennings saying there were dead bodies in the lobby of the building, but I don't understand how he could have failed to realise his views might be mistaken upon listening to the interview again, where Barry Jennings says more than once that he was told not to look down, and says it felt as if they were stepping over people, not that they actually were. In any case, their vision might have been obscured quite a bit by the conditions. It did sound from the interview as if Barry Jennings had assumed they were people, because he said, "And we're stepping over people and you know you could feel when you're stepping over people"; but it sounds as if it was an honest mistake that he would have probably been extremely careful not to have made if he'd had any idea that his assumption was going to be blown right out of proportion and used to try to prove something he'd probably had no idea it was going to be used as evidence of. He didn't even say they were dead; so to translate "people" into "dead bodies" is even more of a misrepresentation! They might have been stepping over people, just not dead ones. After all, for example, they could have been people who'd gone inside the building for refuge from the debris falling outside who had collapsed due to smoke inhalation or injury or something, and there were ambulance crews nearby ready to help them. To assume he meant they were dead people who'd been killed by an explosion he heard would be to read something into what he said that wasn't there. And it makes it even worse that the misrepresentation got publicised so much. I think that's chilling.
Dylan Avery said on the website where the video of his interview with Barry Jennings can be heard that he'd released it in its entirety to the public two days after the BBC programme, because although he was being "true" to his word and not putting it in the film, he wanted to prove his version of what Jennings had said. (He also gave a couple of other reasons for releasing it, like, "to preserve it for the historical record".) His releasing it was probably a violation of Barry Jennings' wishes, since although Avery obeyed the letter of what Jennings had said and kept the interview out of the film, the intent of what Barry Jennings said had probably been that his words should no longer be publicised in case they were misrepresented some more! But actually, the interview proves that Barry Jennings was correct in what he told the BBC about how he'd been misinterpreted, not that Dylan Avery's right!
It's strange that Dylan Avery felt sure that releasing the full version of his interview with Barry Jennings and playing the clip about stepping over people to the BBC would vindicate him in his version of events, because the interview makes it so clear that Barry Jennings couldn't have meant he knew they were stepping over dead bodies. It's as if Avery genuinely believes Barry Jennings said that, as if he's convinced himself so thoroughly that that's what Barry Jennings meant that he can't possibly imagine that he could have meant something else, despite the things that make it obvious he did. Weird.
And while Barry Jennings said more than once in the interview that he heard explosions and hadn't been given a satisfactory explanation for them, he didn't even hint that he suspected the government of causing them. So if what he said has been used to try to prove the government did, then that's unfair, to say the least. It's clear from the interview that he wasn't an agitator insisting the government must have something to hide and demanding answers. He was simply answering the questions the interviewers asked him. Just because he said upon being questioned that he hadn't heard a satisfactory explanation for the explosions he heard, it doesn't mean he wouldn't have been satisfied with another explanation that had nothing to do with the government. There are several things that could have caused the sounds he interpreted as explosions, some genuine explosions caused by the effects of the fires, and some things that just sounded like explosions from where he was. If he was set up as a witness whose testimony was going to incriminate the government, when all he did was to explain what he recalled, without a mention of the government, and the makers of the film were well aware that billing him as incriminating the government could have a big impact on his life, then I think they're guilty of gross irresponsibility, or very simplistic thinking that sees everybody as either being on their side or the government's.
Worse, there does seem to be evidence that what he said has been deliberately manipulated. So it might not be going too far to accuse them of deliberate deceptiveness. I decided to listen to the interview with him again to check I was right about what he'd said, and I listened to an abridged version that Jason Bermas, who'd interviewed him with Dylan Avery, had put on Youtube. While Barry Jennings had said that he was "confused" about what could have caused the big explosion he heard, he said that while he was trapped on the eighth floor, he kept hearing little explosions from below. He said in the full version of the interview that he assumed they must be happening to buses and cars below, caused because they were on fire. The bit about what he assumed they were caused by is not there in the abridged version of the interview - he simply says he kept hearing little explosions in that. The bit about him assuming they were cars and buses blowing up must have been deliberately edited out, possibly to support their theory that there was a controlled demolition of the building and the explosions that were heard were caused by that going on.
Also, when he was introducing the Youtube interview, Jason Bermas said Barry Jennings had asked for his interview to be taken out of their film because he'd received so many phone calls from people who were angry about what he'd said, after bits of it had been played on the Internet. Jason didn't mention what Barry Jennings had also said about how he wasn't happy with his words being misrepresented.
And yes, Barry Jennings said the big explosion he heard came from beneath him, and that that was before the other towers collapsed, though after the two planes hit. Later in the interview, he said when the firefighters eventually guided him down through the lobby, it was in "total ruins". What he didn't do was to connect the explosions with that. He was simply recounting the impression he had of it as he went through it. Given that it was after both towers collapsed, it could have just looked as if it was in ruins, because so much rubble had been thrown into the building from the collapsing towers that masses of rubble had covered everything, so he assumed the whole thing was in ruins. Or what about fire damage? Not once did he say he felt sure the lobby must have been blown up. He didn't express any opinion as to what might have caused it to be in the state it was in. So for them to use what he said to promote their opinion that parts of the building were being deliberately exploded is mistaken at best, especially when they don't make it clear that that's a conclusion they're drawing from what he said, but are giving the impression that that's what he actually meant.
Even if he had said he assumed the lobby had been blown to ruins by the big explosion he heard, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have been open to revising his opinion if he'd got a plausible alternative explanation.
Since he didn't incriminate the government despite what he said, anyone who thinks Barry Jennings's withdrawal from the film was a serious blow because they were losing a star witness with vital evidence is mistaken.
********************
(Oh, and just in case anyone comes across this and feels like accusing me of anything as silly as what I was accused of in my (intended-to-be) spin-off thread about the Stundie Awards, I'll quickly say that no, actually, I totally reserve judgment about what Barry Jennings died of.)
And if anyone would like to put this post on Dylan Avery's forum, or anywhere else, as long as they don't misrepresent my words by suggesting I'm saying anyone's culpable for his death, they're welcome to! :-7
"The official version, the conspiracy theories and the evidence surrounding the collapse of World Trade Centre 7 on September 11."
Interesting. I didn't know who any of these personalities were before. I didn't even know there was a third tower, World Trade Center 7. Before I came here, I had no idea there were people running radio shows to promote things like the idea that the American government were responsible for what happened on 9/11. Or whatever they do. When I read the name Dylan Avery here, I assumed he was essentially just some administrator of some obscure forum that a lot of people here didn't like because they disagreed with him and he could be unpleasant. I didn't realise he was famous enough to be interviewed by the BBC! But the article says:
There is no evidence that anyone died in Tower 7 on 9/11. However, conspiracy talk shows and websites seized on a recent interview for Loose Change with the crucial eyewitness Barry Jennings.
The writer and director of Loose Change, Dylan Avery, told The Conspiracy Files: "The amount of detail that Barry gave us in this interview was unreal. He says he was stepping over dead bodies in the lobby."
Barry Jennings himself disagrees with their interpretation of his words. Barry Jennings told the BBC: "I didn't like the way you know I was portrayed. They portrayed me as seeing dead bodies. I never saw dead bodies"
Dylan Avery is adamant that he didn't take anything out of context. He played The Conspiracy Files a recording of Barry Jennings words: "The fire fighter who took us down kept saying do not look down. And I kept saying why.
"He said do not look down. And we're stepping over people and you know you could feel when you're stepping over people."
However, Barry Jennings told the BBC: "I said it felt like I was stepping over them but I never saw any.
"And you know that's the way they portrayed me and I didn't appreciate that so I told them to pull my interview."
I listened to the short interview the BBC did with him that's linked to in the thread in AAH that made me interested in this, and at the very beginning, they had a clip from an Alex Jones show where it said there were "dead bodies all over the lobby". If they were trying to make out that that's what Barry Jennings said, then they were definitely twisting it. If there were people on talk shows all over America saying he actually saw dead bodies, and lots of them, when he only said it felt like he was stepping over "people", possibly only meaning a few, and it's obvious he didn't see them because he said more than once in the interview with Dylan Avery that the firefighter kept telling him not to look down and he kept asking why, rather than looking down so he could find out, that's terrible, especially if they're trying to use what he said to prove those people died in a government-caused explosion, something he himself never suggested. If he ever heard any talk shows that did that, and he wasn't able to contact them while the show was going on and correct their accounts, that must have been stressful, to know he was being misrepresented so badly, especially when he realised the amount or types of people it might bring him into conflict with!
I also came across the audio interview Dylan Avery did with him that would have been in the film if Barry Jennings hadn't asked for it to be removed, which seemed to be on a site run by Dylan Avery himself, who implied on the website that the version of events Barry Jennings had told the BBC was different to the one he'd given in the interview with him. But it seemed he was referring to the thing about stepping over people, so it definitely wasn't different. It was what Dylan Avery interpreted it to mean that made the difference.
He said on the website that he'd phoned Barry Jennings up, and Barry Jennings had asked him to take his interview out of his film because what he'd said was being interpreted to mean he saw dead bodies when that was a misrepresentation, and he said he was being harassed and even threatened with the loss of his job.
It's unjust if he was threatened with the loss of his job because his bosses thought he, as quite a high-profile figure, had misrepresented the truth and publicised that there were dead people when there weren't, when what really happened was that what he said had been misrepresented by others who had publicised their misrepresentations! Dylan Avery also said Barry Jennings complained about the amount of phone calls he'd been getting about the issue. I sincerely hope they weren't accusatory phone calls made by debunkers who ironically believed what was being said by people like Alex Jones about the claims Barry Jennings was making, and wanted to challenge Jennings, to expose what they thought of as his lies, and condemn him for supposedly lying!!
It's feasible that Dylan Avery could have made an honest mistake to begin with about Barry Jennings saying there were dead bodies in the lobby of the building, but I don't understand how he could have failed to realise his views might be mistaken upon listening to the interview again, where Barry Jennings says more than once that he was told not to look down, and says it felt as if they were stepping over people, not that they actually were. In any case, their vision might have been obscured quite a bit by the conditions. It did sound from the interview as if Barry Jennings had assumed they were people, because he said, "And we're stepping over people and you know you could feel when you're stepping over people"; but it sounds as if it was an honest mistake that he would have probably been extremely careful not to have made if he'd had any idea that his assumption was going to be blown right out of proportion and used to try to prove something he'd probably had no idea it was going to be used as evidence of. He didn't even say they were dead; so to translate "people" into "dead bodies" is even more of a misrepresentation! They might have been stepping over people, just not dead ones. After all, for example, they could have been people who'd gone inside the building for refuge from the debris falling outside who had collapsed due to smoke inhalation or injury or something, and there were ambulance crews nearby ready to help them. To assume he meant they were dead people who'd been killed by an explosion he heard would be to read something into what he said that wasn't there. And it makes it even worse that the misrepresentation got publicised so much. I think that's chilling.
Dylan Avery said on the website where the video of his interview with Barry Jennings can be heard that he'd released it in its entirety to the public two days after the BBC programme, because although he was being "true" to his word and not putting it in the film, he wanted to prove his version of what Jennings had said. (He also gave a couple of other reasons for releasing it, like, "to preserve it for the historical record".) His releasing it was probably a violation of Barry Jennings' wishes, since although Avery obeyed the letter of what Jennings had said and kept the interview out of the film, the intent of what Barry Jennings said had probably been that his words should no longer be publicised in case they were misrepresented some more! But actually, the interview proves that Barry Jennings was correct in what he told the BBC about how he'd been misinterpreted, not that Dylan Avery's right!
It's strange that Dylan Avery felt sure that releasing the full version of his interview with Barry Jennings and playing the clip about stepping over people to the BBC would vindicate him in his version of events, because the interview makes it so clear that Barry Jennings couldn't have meant he knew they were stepping over dead bodies. It's as if Avery genuinely believes Barry Jennings said that, as if he's convinced himself so thoroughly that that's what Barry Jennings meant that he can't possibly imagine that he could have meant something else, despite the things that make it obvious he did. Weird.
And while Barry Jennings said more than once in the interview that he heard explosions and hadn't been given a satisfactory explanation for them, he didn't even hint that he suspected the government of causing them. So if what he said has been used to try to prove the government did, then that's unfair, to say the least. It's clear from the interview that he wasn't an agitator insisting the government must have something to hide and demanding answers. He was simply answering the questions the interviewers asked him. Just because he said upon being questioned that he hadn't heard a satisfactory explanation for the explosions he heard, it doesn't mean he wouldn't have been satisfied with another explanation that had nothing to do with the government. There are several things that could have caused the sounds he interpreted as explosions, some genuine explosions caused by the effects of the fires, and some things that just sounded like explosions from where he was. If he was set up as a witness whose testimony was going to incriminate the government, when all he did was to explain what he recalled, without a mention of the government, and the makers of the film were well aware that billing him as incriminating the government could have a big impact on his life, then I think they're guilty of gross irresponsibility, or very simplistic thinking that sees everybody as either being on their side or the government's.
Worse, there does seem to be evidence that what he said has been deliberately manipulated. So it might not be going too far to accuse them of deliberate deceptiveness. I decided to listen to the interview with him again to check I was right about what he'd said, and I listened to an abridged version that Jason Bermas, who'd interviewed him with Dylan Avery, had put on Youtube. While Barry Jennings had said that he was "confused" about what could have caused the big explosion he heard, he said that while he was trapped on the eighth floor, he kept hearing little explosions from below. He said in the full version of the interview that he assumed they must be happening to buses and cars below, caused because they were on fire. The bit about what he assumed they were caused by is not there in the abridged version of the interview - he simply says he kept hearing little explosions in that. The bit about him assuming they were cars and buses blowing up must have been deliberately edited out, possibly to support their theory that there was a controlled demolition of the building and the explosions that were heard were caused by that going on.
Also, when he was introducing the Youtube interview, Jason Bermas said Barry Jennings had asked for his interview to be taken out of their film because he'd received so many phone calls from people who were angry about what he'd said, after bits of it had been played on the Internet. Jason didn't mention what Barry Jennings had also said about how he wasn't happy with his words being misrepresented.
And yes, Barry Jennings said the big explosion he heard came from beneath him, and that that was before the other towers collapsed, though after the two planes hit. Later in the interview, he said when the firefighters eventually guided him down through the lobby, it was in "total ruins". What he didn't do was to connect the explosions with that. He was simply recounting the impression he had of it as he went through it. Given that it was after both towers collapsed, it could have just looked as if it was in ruins, because so much rubble had been thrown into the building from the collapsing towers that masses of rubble had covered everything, so he assumed the whole thing was in ruins. Or what about fire damage? Not once did he say he felt sure the lobby must have been blown up. He didn't express any opinion as to what might have caused it to be in the state it was in. So for them to use what he said to promote their opinion that parts of the building were being deliberately exploded is mistaken at best, especially when they don't make it clear that that's a conclusion they're drawing from what he said, but are giving the impression that that's what he actually meant.
Even if he had said he assumed the lobby had been blown to ruins by the big explosion he heard, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have been open to revising his opinion if he'd got a plausible alternative explanation.
Since he didn't incriminate the government despite what he said, anyone who thinks Barry Jennings's withdrawal from the film was a serious blow because they were losing a star witness with vital evidence is mistaken.
********************
(Oh, and just in case anyone comes across this and feels like accusing me of anything as silly as what I was accused of in my (intended-to-be) spin-off thread about the Stundie Awards, I'll quickly say that no, actually, I totally reserve judgment about what Barry Jennings died of.)
And if anyone would like to put this post on Dylan Avery's forum, or anywhere else, as long as they don't misrepresent my words by suggesting I'm saying anyone's culpable for his death, they're welcome to! :-7