your favourite western films? [Archive]

Kimpatsu

28th October 2003, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Ove
John Wayne WAS the greatest, like it or not.:D
No, Clint Eastwood was better, from the Spaghetti Westerns with their haunting scores by Ennio Morriconi through to the Outlaw Josey Wales, Pale Rider (which single-handedly rescued the Western from the graveyard), and the award-winning Unforgiven.
Rooster Cockburn in True Grit was good, though.

Hal 2001

28th October 2003, 11:57 PM

Without a doubt:

"The Good, The Bad and the Ugly"

Sergio Leone
Enio Moricone
Clint Eastwood

You can't go wrong with that :-)

Mss Hal

Ove

29th October 2003, 12:49 AM

No, Clint Eastwood was better, from the Spaghetti Westerns with their haunting scores by Ennio Morriconi through to the Outlaw

I like Clint, -I like some of the spaghetti's (prepare 3 coffins............... sorry make that 4) but still when i think "Cowboy" i think John Wayne. Spaghetti westerns has allways seemed more like gangster movies to me and some of them is just too violent for my liking but i'm willing to propose a bet:

Ask 100 random people on the streets of New York - London - Paris - Berlin who they think of when you say the word "Cowboy". I'll buy you a very large beer if the majority does NOT answer "John Wayne". ;) Off course in Berlin the majority MIGHT say "Lex Barker"

Kimpatsu

29th October 2003, 12:59 AM

Don't forget that the spaghettis were inspired by the tales of Kurosawa, so rather than gangster, the classic samurai legends come more easily to mind.

Ove

29th October 2003, 02:24 AM

You're right off course, with gangster i was referring to the brutal meaningless violence that are in a lot of spagetti westerns.

a_unique_person

29th October 2003, 04:08 AM

I just can't see John Wayne as a real cowboy. He was just too much of a Hollywood idea of a cowboy. McCabe and Mrs Miller, in contrast, had a great time breaking all the cowboy icons.

For example, the "shootout", between a sadistic gunslinger and a naive youth.

Rule Number 1 of Shootouts, don't draw against anyone unless you know you can beat them.

Kimpatsu

29th October 2003, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by Ove
You're right off course, with gangster i was referring to the brutal meaningless violence that are in a lot of spagetti westerns.
What's wrong with brutal, meaningless violence? :p

Tricky

29th October 2003, 05:10 AM

Gotta go with Star Wars. Though set in space, it is obviously a western. It has every "western" gimmick ever devised. New gun in town. Rougish sidekick. Strong female in trouble. Devoted pets. Comic relief. One beloved character dies. Heros never miss, villians never hit etc. Clichés all, but they do them well!.

Kimpatsu

29th October 2003, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by Tricky
Gotta go with Star Wars. Though set in space, it is obviously a western. It has every "western" gimmick ever devised. New gun in town. Rougish sidekick. Strong female in trouble. Devoted pets. Comic relief. One beloved character dies. Heros never miss, villians never hit etc. Clichés all, but they do them well!.
Actually, the Star Wars saga is based on the Kurosawa samurai movies. The word "Jedi" is derived from the Japanese "jidaigeki".

bangdazap

29th October 2003, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Don't forget that the spaghettis were inspired by the tales of Kurosawa, so rather than gangster, the classic samurai legends come more easily to mind.
IIRC, Kurosawa was actually inspired by westerns he saw as young in turn.

Hexxenhammer

29th October 2003, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Actually, the Star Wars saga is based on the Kurosawa samurai movies. The word "Jedi" is derived from the Japanese "jidaigeki".

Gunslingers are American ronin.

I remember when I was little I asked my dad what kind of movie Star Wars was and he said "It's a western." I didn't get what he meant until I was older of course.

Nyarlathotep

29th October 2003, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer

Gunslingers are American ronin.

I remember when I was little I asked my dad what kind of movie Star Wars was and he said "It's a western." I didn't get what he meant until I was older of course.

I have always seen Star Wars as more of a fantasy film than a sci-fi or a western. The plot is basicly "Young farm boy saves the beautiful princess from the impregnable fortress of the evil wizard"

You don't get much more stereotypically fantasy than that.

Mark

29th October 2003, 08:05 AM

Silverado

The Outlaw Josie Wales

And the all-too-short-lived TV series The Adventures of Brisco County Junior...especially when they added John Astin to the cast.

Boo

29th October 2003, 01:39 PM

Magnificent Seven (the original Kurosawa is awesome)

Silverado (so many men, so little time)

High Noon (Gary Cooper - nuff said)

John Wayne is in a class by himself. He and Ford literally changed how America and the world viewed 'The Old West'. How can you pick only one or even just a few? The Calvalry Trilogy, Stagecoach,
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, The Searchers, Red River,True Grit, and finally The Shootist.

Boo

Mr Manifesto

29th October 2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Small Town Jesus
Heaven's Gate

<size=h1>?!?WHAT?!?</size>

Mr Manifesto

29th October 2003, 02:14 PM

"Hombre" starring Paul Newman and Richard Boon
"Once Upon a Time in the West"
"The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" (" 'ey Blondie!")
And, even though it's been over 20 years since I've seen it, there will always be a place in my heart for "Valley of Gwangi". I mean, cowboys and Tyrannosaurs... What's not to like about that?

a_unique_person

29th October 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

I have always seen Star Wars as more of a fantasy film than a sci-fi or a western. The plot is basicly "Young farm boy saves the beautiful princess from the impregnable fortress of the evil wizard"

You don't get much more stereotypically fantasy than that.

And you can't connect western-fantasy?

Peter Jenkins

29th October 2003, 02:44 PM

Way out west :)

Stan and Ollie at their best.

P

Nyarlathotep

29th October 2003, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by a_unique_person

And you can't connect western-fantasy?

I've never really thought about it in that way. But I guess one can draw a lot of parallels. Cowboy=wandering knight, Evil cattle baron=Evil nobleman, etc.

epepke

29th October 2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by bangdazap

IIRC, Kurosawa was actually inspired by westerns he saw as young in turn.

I'd like to start a new meme. It won't work, of course. But I'd like to suggest it anyway.

Samurai/Martial Arts/Chop Sockey films are "easterns." Like westerns, but elsewhere.

Kimpatsu

29th October 2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by epepke

I'd like to start a new meme. It won't work, of course. But I'd like to suggest it anyway.

Samurai/Martial Arts/Chop Sockey films are "easterns." Like westerns, but elsewhere.
We already do call them easterns, at least here.

Kimpatsu

29th October 2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I've never really thought about it in that way. But I guess one can draw a lot of parallels. Cowboy=wandering knight, Evil cattle baron=Evil nobleman, etc.
George Lucas has always said that Star Wars is a fairy tale. That's why it starts, "Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." Also (and, thankfully, he dropped this idea), each episode was originally going to be topped and tailed with a mummy wookie taking down a book from a shelf to read to her infant son, and when she opened the book, we would fall though it into the Star Wars universe, to reinforce the notion that SW is a fairy tale.

The Central Scrutinizer

29th October 2003, 05:55 PM

The Hours

shemp

29th October 2003, 06:21 PM

I can't believe nobody has mentioned Blazing Saddles.

a_unique_person

29th October 2003, 06:34 PM

You have now. My kids thought it was pretty funny, but the end when it moves into the studio and canteen for the pie fight reall screws with your ability to suspend reality.

I can't believe no one else has mentioned McCabe and MrsMiller. Oh well.

Jessica Blue

29th October 2003, 08:07 PM

I really liked the Treasure of Sierra Madre and The Searchers.

I have mixed feelings about John Wayne. On the one hand I see him as a neanderthal macho lump and on the other an icon who was perfect for the genre he specialized in.

Ove

29th October 2003, 10:47 PM

I just can't see John Wayne as a real cowboy. He was just too much of a Hollywood idea of a cowboy.

Off course, that is why he stands for the rest of the world as THE cowboy.:D

Gotta go with Star Wars. Though set in space, it is obviously a western. It has every "western" gimmick ever devised. New gun in town. Rougish sidekick. Strong female in trouble. Devoted pets. Comic relief. One beloved character dies. Heros never miss, villians never hit etc. Clichés all, but they do them well!.

On the other hand it also has a quite few WW2 cliche's: Gun turrets - fighter vs fighter and the finishing torpedo attack. And they fight with swords in true "Ivanhoe/Ben Hur" style and speaking about Ben Hur, need i say chariot race??. The too cute teddy bears in the last movie is obviously modelled on "Robin Hood"
What's wrong with brutal, meaningless violence?
I can't stand it.:hit:

Ove

29th October 2003, 10:56 PM

I can't believe nobody has mentioned Blazing Saddles.

You're right, the shining star above them all.:D

Reverend Johnson: Now I don't have to tell you good folks what's been happening in our beloved little town. Sheriff murdered, crops burned, stores looted, people stampeded, and cattle raped. The time has come to act, and act fast. I'm leaving.

Hedley Lamarr: Qualifications?
Applicant: Rape, murder, arson, and rape.
Hedley Lamarr: You said rape twice.
Applicant: I like rape.

Garrette

29th October 2003, 11:27 PM

Most already mentioned, but I'll chime in anway.

The Searchers is both epic and classic.

Hombre can't be beaten for sharp characters and crisp dialogue (but this is true of almost anything by Elmore Leonard).

McCabe and Mrs. Miller for removing the romance.

Shane because it's Shane.

Stagecoach.

Unforgiven.

Tombstone because I like Kurt Russell and Val Kilmer.

And finally, Warlock. To be honest, I haven't seen the actual movie which stars Henry Fonda, but the book (which was nominated for a Pulitzer) is absolutely amazing. I highly recommend it.

Hannibal

30th October 2003, 01:07 AM

Tombstone, Tombstone and more Tombstone!

Val Kilmer was absolutely fantastic as Doc Holliday.

I also love Unforgiven, Josey Wales, High Plains Drift....well anything with Clint in it is pretty damn good in my book.

I always understood that Samurai epics were called "chambara" cinema. Star Wars scans like an almagamation of chambara and Flash Gordon. I understood it was inspired by "The Hidden Fortress" (Kurosawa)

Useless trivia - in "Once upon a time in the West" the harmonica refrain used throughout the film was sampled for the song "Dub be good to me" by Beats International (Fatboy Slim)

Small Town Jesus

30th October 2003, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

<size=h1>?!?WHAT?!?</size>

Heaven's Gate is quite simply one of my favorite films and thus my favorite western.
All the hoopla over how it got made is irrelevant. It's a beautiful, extraordinary film with some awesome cinematography and some terrific acting, particularly from John Hurt and Christopher Walken.

STJ

ASRomatifoso

30th October 2003, 06:30 AM

A few of my favorites:

Unforgiven (one of my favorite movies of all time), haunting and elegaic with perfect dialogue

Lonesome Dove (a mini-series, I know)

True Grit

Once Upon a Time in the West

The Wild Bunch

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

High Plains Drifter

Dead Man (weird, with metaphysical underpinnings but still a western and great)

High Noon

zakur

30th October 2003, 06:46 AM

Valley of Gwangi (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0065163/)

hgc

30th October 2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by Ove
"Rio Bravo" or off course (can't understand nobody has mentioned it yet) : STAGECOACH!!!!

John Wayne WAS the greatest, like it or not.:D OK, here's my Rio Bravo problem. It's just an OK western, but the real problem is why was it remade as El Dorado 8 years later? With John Wayne, again? Directed by Howard Hawks, again?

Rio Bravo (1959)
Warner Bros
dir. - Howard Hawks
story - B.H. McCambell
screenwriter - Leigh Brackett +
hero - John Wayne
disgraced, drunken sheriff - Robert Mitchum
old coot - Arthur Hunnicutt
young gun - James Caan ("Colorado")
bad guy - Ed Asner
babe - Charlene Holt

El Dorado (1967)
Paramount
dir. - Howard Hawks
novel - Harry Brown
screenwriter - Leigh Brackett +
hero - John Wayne
disgraced, drunken sheriff - Dean Martin
old coot - Walter Brennan
young gun - Ricky Nelson ("Mississippi")
bad buy - Joh Russell
babe - Angie Dickinson

epepke

30th October 2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
We already do call them easterns, at least here.

Woo hoo! Not bad for a gaijin.

http://images.jlist.com/c3/devilimag_small.gif

George Lucas has always said that Star Wars is a fairy tale. That's why it starts, "Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." Also (and, thankfully, he dropped this idea), each episode was originally going to be topped and tailed with a mummy wookie taking down a book from a shelf to read to her infant son, and when she opened the book, we would fall though it into the Star Wars universe, to reinforce the notion that SW is a fairy tale.

I remember reading an interview with George Lucas about a month after Star Wars came out. He said that he thought of it as a western and was happy that some of the reviewers were comparing it to westerns. He also said that he started the project, basically, because the money from THX-1138 was running out, and he didn't want to get a job. No mention whatsoever of it's being one in a series of episodes.

Kimpatsu

30th October 2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by epepke
No mention whatsoever of it's being one in a series of episodes. That's because he didn't know if it would be a success. It was clearly planned as a series, though: it begins with "Episode IV: A New Hope".
After Episode 1, Lucas said in an interview that he'd always intended to go back 30 years before the start of the original series, and tell us how all the major characters got to where they were at the start of ANH.

epepke

30th October 2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
That's because he didn't know if it would be a success. It was clearly planned as a series, though: it begins with "Episode IV: A New Hope".

No. It didn't. I saw it when it first came out. Three times. There was no, I repead no "Episode IV: A New Hope" in the opening sequence.

When I saw it the fourth time in the theater, it was a re-release, and the "Episode IV: A New Hope" had been put in.

Kimpatsu

30th October 2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by epepke

No. It didn't. I saw it when it first came out. Three times. There was no, I repead no "Episode IV: A New Hope" in the opening sequence.

When I saw it the fourth time in the theater, it was a re-release, and the "Episode IV: A New Hope" had been put in.
When I first saw Star Wars in 1977, "Episode IV: A New Hope" was quite evident in the opening titles, and the audience gasped when they saw it. Where did you see Star Wars?

epepke

30th October 2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

When I first saw Star Wars in 1977, "Episode IV: A New Hope" was quite evident in the opening titles, and the audience gasped when they saw it. Where did you see Star Wars?

Bradenton, Florida, at the now-defunct Bayshore II cinema. No "Episode IV" stuff at all. Second time, same theater, still none. I snuck in a 35 mm camera; if I had suspected that this was going to be a "We were always at war with Eastasia" thing, I would have shot it. Third time, Sarasota Square 6

demon

30th October 2003, 05:48 PM

Some fine films have been mentioned.
I would add:

Will Penny

Lonely Are the Brave

Last Train from Gun Hill

I`d also like to include "Bad Day at Black Rock" but maybe that doesn`t fit the genre.

edited to add: hgc, I think you got your "young guns" mixed up there;)

Kimpatsu

30th October 2003, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by epepke
Bradenton, Florida, at the now-defunct Bayshore II cinema. No "Episode IV" stuff at all. Second time, same theater, still none. I snuck in a 35 mm camera; if I had suspected that this was going to be a "We were always at war with Eastasia" thing, I would have shot it. Third time, Sarasota Square 6
Interesting; by the time it came to the UK, the "Episode IV: A New Hope" banner had already been added.

Kimpatsu

30th October 2003, 05:53 PM

Back on track: has anyone mentioned "High Noon" yet?
(Sings) "Do not forsake me O my darling..."

epepke

30th October 2003, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Interesting; by the time it came to the UK, the "Episode IV: A New Hope" banner had already been added.

That makes sense. There was a delay of a few months when films got released to the UK, and lots of changes got made.

However, this is starting to bug me. I definitely, clearly remember no Episode IV. But if I'm wrong about that, maybe I'm psychotic. After all, if such a clear memory is wrong, how can I count on any of my other memories over the past 25 years?

On the other hand, if I'm right, maybe I shouldn't worry about the ethics of making money off of people whose memories are built on revisionism.

I'm going to make this a test case and do my best to get to the bottom of it.

UncaStuart

30th October 2003, 10:36 PM

Shane (loved the dog slinking away from Jack Palance)
High Noon
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
The Wild Bunch
The Professionals
Unforgiven
Bad Day at Black Rock (still possible to set a "western" in the 1940s)
Outland (regardless of the improbable physics, a fun western space-opera)

Ove

30th October 2003, 11:41 PM

OK, here's my Rio Bravo problem. It's just an OK western, but the real problem is why was it remade as El Dorado 8 years later? With John Wayne, again? Directed by Howard Hawks, again?

Rio Bravo (1959)
Warner Bros
dir. - Howard Hawks
story - B.H. McCambell
screenwriter - Leigh Brackett +
hero - John Wayne
disgraced, drunken sheriff - Robert Mitchum
old coot - Arthur Hunnicutt
young gun - James Caan ("Colorado")
bad guy - Ed Asner
babe - Charlene Holt

El Dorado (1967)
Paramount
dir. - Howard Hawks
novel - Harry Brown
screenwriter - Leigh Brackett +
hero - John Wayne
disgraced, drunken sheriff - Dean Martin
old coot - Walter Brennan
young gun - Ricky Nelson ("Mississippi")
bad buy - Joh Russell
babe - Angie Dickinson
?

Actually you got them mixed up too. Dean Martin - Brennan - Ricky Nelson etc was in "Rio Bravo" (1959)Rio Bravo (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0053221/) and Caan & Co was in "El Dorado" (1967)
El Dorado (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0061619/)

You are right, it is basically the same plot but hey THAT has happened a lot of times in movie history. I like both films but Rio Bravo is my favourite. I think Dean Martin's drunk is very convincing but hey, he HAD some experiences to draw from.:D

demon

31st October 2003, 03:29 AM

To be fair, if we are talking about "El Dorado" then we must make a passing mention of hired gun Christopher George as "Nelse McLeod".

It`s just "professional courtesy" afterall.

edited to add: of course the nastiest hired gun ever was the great and underrated Jack Palance in "Shane".

Ove

31st October 2003, 04:42 AM

To be fair, if we are talking about "El Dorado" then we must make a passing mention of hired gun Christopher George as "Nelse McLeod".

The price for the nastiest and for the funniest hired gun must go to the same man: Le Marvin in"Cat Ballou" :D

hgc

31st October 2003, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Ove

Actually you got them mixed up too. Dean Martin - Brennan - Ricky Nelson etc was in "Rio Bravo" (1959)Rio Bravo (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0053221/) and Caan & Co was in "El Dorado" (1967)
El Dorado (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0061619/)

You are right, it is basically the same plot but hey THAT has happened a lot of times in movie history. I like both films but Rio Bravo is my favourite. I think Dean Martin's drunk is very convincing but hey, he HAD some experiences to draw from.:D Oops. I hate it when that happens. Just goes to show how interchangable they are. :D

I still contend that El Dorado is more similar to Rio Bravo than most admitted remakes are to their forebears. What I can't understand is how they can have 2 different provinances (McCampbell's story and Brown's novel, neither of which I've read), except that Brackett is a screenwriter on both. Did Brown copy McCampbell's story? Did Brackett change the story of El Dorado a whole bunch to match the movie he already wrote 8 years prior?

sackett

31st October 2003, 12:07 PM

Wellsir, fellers (snapping his galluses and spitting on the stove), I hate t' ride all this way jest t' bring ye bad news, but --

Okay, okay, no more dialect. But as far as I can tell, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD WESTERN.

How would I know? Because I was born in Wyoming, and when I was growing up every year was 1888. The edge of the wilderness was right over there, and the Old West was alive and kicking -- and stinking, blowing, burning, dropping horse apples, and wiping out generations of sodbusters, as it always did and (in Wyoming anyway) still does.

Not that I didn't get to town often enough, and go to movies too. How we all writhed through westerns when I was a kid and a young man! The anachronisms! The foolish misconceptions! The garbled history! The wooden dialogue, and equally wooden acting! (This was in the 50s, to be sure.) In short, the tedious unreality of it all! And I'm not even including the John Wayne flicks; they were in a depth of their own.

The first thing to understand about the Old West is that most of it never happened, for the good reason that there was nobody around. Almost the entire expanse of the Great Plains, Mountain West, and Southwest was unpeopled. Yes, I'm counting the Indians, who were a thin scattering of tiny tribes making no impact on anything. Maybe you have to come from Wyoming to understand emptiness.

So anyways -- sorry, dialect again. So anyway, let me humbly suggest a new thread: The WORST Western Movie You Ever Saw.

hgc

31st October 2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by sackett
...

The first thing to understand about the Old West is that most of it never happened... Who cares? This thread is about movies, not about history.

sackett

31st October 2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by hgc
Who cares? This thread is about movies, not about history.

Sez here you come from NY NY. How'd you like Gangs of New York? Betcha squirmed.

Anyway, I've been waiting years -- a lifetime -- to publish that rant about westerns. When I see you pore pilgrims getting enthused over Rio Bravo! Shane! (With Sissy Allan Ladd, as my mother called him.) The Searchers! The Good/Bad/Ugly! Destry! I -must- cry out or spew a rib holding it in.

Blazing Saddles wasn't bad, though.

zakur

31st October 2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by hgc
Who cares? This thread is about movies, not about history. What?! You mean Valley of Gwangi is not historically accurate? :eek:

hgc

31st October 2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by sackett

Sez here you come from NY NY. How'd you like Gangs of New York? Betcha squirmed. Yes, but not for the reasons you think.
Anyway, I've been waiting years -- a lifetime -- to publish that rant about westerns. When I see you pore pilgrims getting enthused over Rio Bravo! Shane! (With Sissy Allan Ladd, as my mother called him.) The Searchers! The Good/Bad/Ugly! Destry! I -must- cry out or spew a rib holding it in.Rant away. I won't stop you. But Shane a sissy? Don't tell me the real west didn't have sissies? Gawlee! What's the point? If you think anyone gives a rat's ass about historical accuracy in movies, then you'll also think that anyone will care about your rant.Blazing Saddles wasn't bad, though. You are sensible and appreciative afterall of the power of the movies to transport us to a place outside our own mundane existence, to infuse us with the wonder and tragedy of the human experience, to ... oh, wait, got to go raid Rock Ridge!

Nyarlathotep

31st October 2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by sackett

The first thing to understand about the Old West is that most of it never happened, for the good reason that there was nobody around. Almost the entire expanse of the Great Plains, Mountain West, and Southwest was unpeopled. Yes, I'm counting the Indians, who were a thin scattering of tiny tribes making no impact on anything. Maybe you have to come from Wyoming to understand emptiness.

That's okay, the important thing to remember about Star Wars is that it never happened. Despite it's claim of happening "Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away". It's a complete work of fiction.

Indiana Jones never existed either.

bangdazap

31st October 2003, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by epepke

However, this is starting to bug me. I definitely, clearly remember no Episode IV. But if I'm wrong about that, maybe I'm psychotic. After all, if such a clear memory is wrong, how can I count on any of my other memories over the past 25 years?

This is from All Movie Guide (http://www.allmovie.com) :
"After Star Wars became a success, Lucas announced his intention to turn the film into a series, originally totaling nine films (later pared back to six). Consequently, most reissue prints now feature the title Star Wars: Episode IV—A New Hope[.]

I think Lucas made the story of the first movie ("Episode IV") so that it could both stand alone and be continued if it became a success.

epepke

1st November 2003, 12:19 PM

epepke

1st November 2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by sackett
Okay, okay, no more dialect. But as far as I can tell, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD WESTERN.

Here's an interesting statistic. The infamous "Dodge City" averaged about 2 murders per year.

shecky

2nd November 2003, 02:21 PM

The western is one genre I really never had much use for. As far as I'm concerned, the only interesting westerns were those that went overboard with stylistic interpretation, such as the spaghettis (there are some real doozies out there) or things like "The Wild Bunch". I think the genre does best when it's treated in a surreal and violent fashion.

Spaghettis inherently fall into this category almost solely by the fact that they tend to be dubbed into english. And some of those obscure spaghettis have some truly outlandish plot ideas. As far as I'm concerned, one of the biggest missed opportunities in the genre is that Federico Fellini never made a spaghetti western.

I particularly like "The Wild Bunch" as a continuing mixing of the genre in the pop culture of the time. I think many of the westerns since then have done little more than repeat prior successes.

As far as surreal westerns go, the strangest has to be "El Topo" which meanders a bleak gunslingers landscape with tons of sex, eastern philosophy, overdone violence, sci-fi all rolled into one stange movie.

shecky

2nd November 2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by bangdazap

This is from All Movie Guide (http://www.allmovie.com) :
"After Star Wars became a success, Lucas announced his intention to turn the film into a series, originally totaling nine films (later pared back to six). Consequently, most reissue prints now feature the title Star Wars: Episode IV—A New Hope[.]

I think Lucas made the story of the first movie ("Episode IV") so that it could both stand alone and be continued if it became a success.

Another thank you. I used to get the strangest looks suggesting the "Episode IV" was tacked on after the first movie became a success. Since I was a pre-adolescent Star Wars freak when it first came out, I saw it several times, and only noticed the "Episode IV" when it was released on video.

epepke

2nd November 2003, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by shecky
Spaghettis inherently fall into this category almost solely by the fact that they tend to be dubbed into english. And some of those obscure spaghettis have some truly outlandish plot ideas. As far as I'm concerned, one of the biggest missed opportunities in the genre is that Federico Fellini never made a spaghetti western.

Most spaghetti westerns were dubbed into all languages. With a polyglot cast, it was just simpler to have each actor speaking his own language. Fellini is notorious for not bothering to write the dialogue until the film was near editing, so often as not his actors were spouting gibberish.

Incidentally, Ernie Kovacs did a pretty decent set of spoofs on westerns, including one in the Twilight Zone mold.

shecky

2nd November 2003, 03:27 PM

I realize that spaghettis were dubbed into a myriad of languages. However, the fact that they are dubbed puts a layer of unreality between the movie and viewer from the very get go. As a kid, I used to equate this as a portend of weird juicy storytelling to come. And weird juicy storytelling is precisely why I think a Fellini western would have been quite a spectacle.

fhios

3rd November 2003, 12:01 AM

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Hey, it was only the start of every non-Italian western in its decade.
The Shooting
The Last of the Dog Men (A amazingly original flick that manages, by the way, to be an actual western, though set in it own present day of the 1990's.
Little Big Man
Jerimiah Johnson

sackett

3rd November 2003, 01:00 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fhios
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Hey, it was only the start of every non-Italian western in its decade.

And it opens with a title screen reading "Some of what follows is true." Harry Longabaugh and Butch Parker would have liked that -- anyway Butch would have, he enjoyed a good hoot.

Little Big Man

The only interesting parts (of the book, that is) are openly cribbed from "The Cheyennes," by George Bird Grinnell.

Jerimiah Johnson

See that "Liver-Eatin' Johnson" at the bottom of my post? That was Jeremiah Johnson's real name, from his custom of eating the liver of every Crow he killed. He didn't much resemble Robt. Redford, and the Disney cartel had to do a LOT of cleaning up on his legend.

Appreciation for westerns is like belief in the supernatural: reality is a constant menace, to be fought against with every weapon at our command.

Ove

4th November 2003, 02:09 AM

Appreciation for westerns is like belief in the supernatural: reality is a constant menace, to be fought against with every weapon at our command.

Year year and the "scalping" was invented by the French in Canada as a mean to pay indians to hunt other indians, i know that. I know that Buffalo Bill was a self promoting liar, that the gunfight at OK Corrall lasted 10 seconds etc. etc.

I DON'T CARE!!!! I don't want realistic westerns. I hate it when the good guy dies in the end and i hate grapich blod spurting violence. I love a good western in the true John Wayne style and if i wan't to watch Wyatt Earp i prefer "My Darling Clementine" anytime. I DON'T WAN'T REALISM. If i did i could just watch CNN, when i watch a good western it is with the intention to be entertained for a couple of hours AND FORGET REALITY.

That is also why i love Star-Wars (the original 3) and Indiana Jones. They remind me off the movies i used to watch sunday afternoon in the cinema: Zorro, Tarzan, Hopalong Cassidy etc. I've had it up to my ears in realism.;)

sackett

4th November 2003, 08:16 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ove

. . . "scalping" was invented by the French in Canada as a mean to pay indians to hunt other indians, i know that. [B/]

Well, um (coff, shuffle), I fear that you -don't- know that. Precolumbian skulls from North America show clear scalping cuts. Further, if scalping was a Euopean custom, it's odd that it doesn't occur in Europe, or much of anywhere in the Old World except a few places in Siberia -- whence American Indians come, btw.

[B] I know that Buffalo Bill was a self promoting liar [B/}

I used to feel the same way about Bill until I learned more about his life. He really did rub out Yellow Hair (who needed it), he really did feed all those railroad gangs hunting buffalo, and he really did ride the West when it was still itself. The man had a hard, unhappy life, including a failed marriage. It's no wonder he drank. Self-promoting? Of course; he was in showbiz.

[B] that the gunfight at OK Corrall lasted 10 seconds etc. etc. [B/]

And was only a gang shootout in any case.

[B] I DON'T CARE!!!! . . . I DON'T WAN'T REALISM. [B/}

Well, who does, unless he can't escape it?

[B] Zorro, Tarzan. . .

Now just a goddurn minnit (dialect again, sorry). Zorro and Tarzan were real historical-type people. They were! They were too!

Mark

4th November 2003, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by sackett
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ove
[B]

. . . "scalping" was invented by the French in Canada as a mean to pay indians to hunt other indians, i know that. [B/]

Not true. As has been demonstrated by the fact that Indians had tribal ceremonies, etc. regarding scalping; this would hardly be the case if it were something introduced by Europeans.

It is true the Europeans paid Indians to scalp each other...and before long white people were scalping each other. But the practice started with the Indians.

Corey

4th November 2003, 12:55 PM

I have to toss in my vote for The Good The Bad and The Ugly.

I'm not a huge fan of westerns in general, but I love this movie. The tension of the showdown scene at the end is so thick you could cut it with a knife. It came on tv a few weeks ago while I was waiting for a friend to come over so we could go out to get a bite to eat and we ended up sitting and watching the whole movie.

Ove

4th November 2003, 10:23 PM

It is true the Europeans paid Indians to scalp each other...and before long white people were scalping each other. But the practice started with the Indians.

You are probably right, the only thing i have read is that the habit took off when the French set out to destroy one particular tribe and made a prize pr. dead indian. Originally the killers was paid by showing the head but it was easier to just take the scalp.:eek: