Bush : U.S. Not Ready for Total Abortion Ban

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Another proud reason for me to vote for the man.

Go Turbo-W !

I support abortion and I support Bush. I win !



http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/92206|top|10-28-2003::14:11|reuters.html

Oct 28, 2:08 PM (ET)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush said on Tuesday the United States is not ready for a total abortion ban, but he would sign a ban just approved by Congress on what opponents of the procedure call "partial birth" abortion.
"Yes, I'll sign the ban on partial birth abortion," Bush said at a White House news conference. "And no, I don't think the culture has changed to the extent that the American people or the Congress would totally ban abortions."

Under the bill that has gone to Bush, a doctor could face up to two years in prison as well as civil lawsuits for performing a "partial birth" abortion, defined as intentionally killing a fetus as it is being delivered. The bill's sponsors say it entails sticking a sharp object into the base of the fetal skull.

[American]

You, me, and 200,000,000 of us feel that way. The rest can drop dead! :)

[geni]

this bit of legistation is largly symbolic the procedure is very rare. It only matters if you aply the slippery slope arguement.

[Tesserat]

Under the bill that has gone to Bush, a doctor could face up to two years in prison as well as civil lawsuits for performing a "partial birth" abortion, defined as intentionally killing a fetus as it is being delivered. The bill's sponsors say it entails sticking a sharp object into the base of the fetal skull.



That is weird. When the fetus is being delivered, isn't that technically a baby? when does the fetus become an infant? To me, that's not an abortion, it's infantcide.

[a_unique_person]

Abortion is never a desirable option, nor one that can be analysed completely logically. I don't think anyone actually ever gets pregnant just so she can have an abortion. If it is banned, it still happens.

Dubya should be ensuring that birth control, a much more desirable alternative, is promoted. I don't think he's in favour of that, though.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Dubya should be ensuring that birth control, a much more desirable alternative, is promoted. I don't think he's in favour of that, though.

Birth Control? No, that just means more fornicatin' can go on. We need more abstinance! "Just say no to penis.*"

* remember, it's all about women remaining sexless and not seducing men with their wiley ways and soft curvy bodies.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Birth Control? No, that just means more fornicatin' can go on. We need more abstinance! "Just say no to penis.*"

* remember, it's all about women remaining sexless and not seducing men with their wiley ways and soft curvy bodies.


you busted them.

they're against sex and it was a horriblly disgusting task for them to concieve their children.

genius !

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tesserat


That is weird. When the fetus is being delivered, isn't that technically a baby? when does the fetus become an infant? To me, that's not an abortion, it's infantcide.

An excellent point. To avoid committing infanticide, the procedure must be completed while the head - just the head - remains in the birth canal. Up goes the scissors, out come the brains. But it's a "medical procedure" because the fetus is only partially outside the womb.

As if that made a bit of difference on a practical level.

[reprise]

So now that D&X has been banned by legislation we'll return to using D&E (which involves foetal dismemberment) and hysterotomy for third trimester abortions. This legislation will not save the life of one single unborn child - it will, however, cost the lives of a small number of women whose physicians will now be forced to perform the more medically risky D&E and hysterotomy. Way to go pro-lifers...

[ImpyTimpy]

Actually, judging from the quote Bush is very much against abortion and if he felt it was safe to do so would ban it completely. Nice spin in the headline though..

"Yes, I'll sign the ban on partial birth abortion," Bush said at a White House news conference. "And no, I don't think the culture has changed to the extent that the American people or the Congress would totally ban abortions."

Please note, he's not saying, I am against banning abortion, he says he won't ban it completely because the American people haven't changed enough yet! It's clearly implied that given more time, when American culture changes more, banning abortions completely will be ok in George's mind.

[ImpyTimpy]

No no reprise, you must use the term partial birth abortion from now on so that people can get some really gruesome details in their heads of half born babies being butchered. This way all logic can be thrown aside in favour of mob mentality emotions.

Originally posted by reprise
So now that D&X has been banned by legislation we'll return to using D&E (which involves foetal dismemberment) and hysterotomy for third trimester abortions. This legislation will not save the life of one single unborn child - it will, however, cost the lives of a small number of women whose physicians will now be forced to perform the more medically risky D&E and hysterotomy. Way to go pro-lifers...

[reprise]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
Actually, judging from the quote Bush is very much against abortion and if he felt it was safe to do so would ban it completely. Nice spin in the headline though..

Please note, he's not saying, I am against banning abortion, he says he won't ban it completely because the American people haven't changed enough yet! It's clearly implied that given more time, when American culture changes more, banning abortions completely will be ok in George's mind.

And Bush's proposal for removing dead foetuses from women is...? His proposal for delivering severely hydrocephalic foetuses is...?

You know, I'd really like one pro-life person who supports this legislation to come up with the actual statistics related to D&X being performed on live, viable foetuses.

[Charlie Monoxide]

This is great that the Americans are returning to government control of womens' uteri. We should bring back chattal laws while we're at it.

Charlie (those women have gotten way too uppity since we let them vote) Monoxide

[Dancing David]

Yeah, well this one is a no brainer, partial birth abortion is already illegal in a lot of states. The question still remains as to the viability of the fetus, but in most cases they would be viable.

So lets defend the rights of the unborn, then we can just let them starve to death, get beaten,sold into slavery and raped after they are born. Glory be to god!

[American]

Originally posted by reprise
So now that D&X has been banned by legislation we'll return to using D&E (which involves foetal dismemberment) and hysterotomy for third trimester abortions. This legislation will not save the life of one single unborn child - it will, however, cost the lives of a small number of women whose physicians will now be forced to perform the more medically risky D&E and hysterotomy. Way to go pro-lifers...


Noooooo- it is still allowed when 2 doctors deem it necessary to save the mother.

If only 1 doctor is available, then who cares. We're talking about miniscule numbers, and even if 1 doc were caught, it doesn't much affect me and my life. I'm young and wealthy, and I just don't care.

(I'm also fairly pro-choice, though I think she's a SLUT for not controlling herself, sluts should have the right to be that way if they choose.)

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Yeah, well this one is a no brainer...Ouch!

[ImpyTimpy]

You mean they don't operate on living babies like that? But according to the pro-lifer extremists they suck the kids brains out while they are kicking and thrashing from the pain! Some even steal babies from the hospital just so they can perform these horrible operations on them! Those bastard doctors just want to torture babieees.

It must be true because this site says it is...

**WARNING - EXTREME CONTENT**
http://www.partial-birth.com/

Originally posted by reprise


And Bush's proposal for removing dead foetuses from women is...? His proposal for delivering severely hydrocephalic foetuses is...?

You know, I'd really like one pro-life person who supports this legislation to come up with the actual statistics related to D&X being performed on live, viable foetuses.

[EdipisReks]

according to doctors interviewed by 60 Minutes a couple years ago, partial birth abortion is a misunderstanding of a rare, but necessary medical procedure. these things aren't done on a whim.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by American



Noooooo- it is still allowed when 2 doctors deem it necessary to save the mother.

If only 1 doctor is available, then who cares. We're talking about miniscule numbers, and even if 1 doc were caught, it doesn't much affect me and my life. I'm young and wealthy, and I just don't care.

(I'm also fairly pro-choice, though I think she's a SLUT for not controlling herself, sluts should have the right to be that way if they choose.)

A slut, mind you, who even at the nadir* of slatternliness* would still not screw you if your semen was the only cure for her cervical cancer.












*deliberately using subjective words for the purposes of humour- not to be confused with the author's opinions.

[Cain]

Silly abortion non-arguments.

Is there ever any discussion about abortion in european countries and Australia? I doubt it.

[Prospero]

And no, I don't think the culture has changed to the extent that the American people or the Congress would totally ban abortions.

This is quite possibly the first relatively intelligent thing I've read that Bush is supposed to have uttered. He very well could have had his advisors near-by manipulating him as usual. Regardless, why is it that he sees the need to change society? I got news for people, abortion is the least of the problems with our country. You improve the education system, deal with homelessness, welfare, social security and countless other more pressing matters and then I'll consider whether or not you have a valid argument about improving the moral framework of our country or whatever it is you think you're doing by restricting a woman's right to choose what she wants to do with her own body.

I will admit, though, that I find partial-birth abortions extremely distasteful and do not fault Congress or Bush for pushing such a measure. However, as mentioned in several prior posts, its prevalence is grossly exaggerated and usually performed as an emergency procedure. Most mothers that maintain a fetus for that long are not particularly inclined to dispose of it. After having it for the 4+ months necessary to have the PBA, it seems absurd to wait that long to finally have a procedure when there's RU-486 (thankfully) as well as other means.

I fail to see how abortions represent a problem to the educated mind. If a woman chooses to remove a cluster of cells from her body, it's entirely her prerogative. Additionally, I don't see it being fair to deny a woman her planned future because a mistake was made. I don't see how anyone could argue that it's better to live and be unwanted than to never live. Roe v. Wade was one of the defining moments of our legal system, proving the individual's rights took precedence over the (abnoxiously vocal) moral minority. To contest it is the same as arguing against your right to have your own opinion in opposition to mine (of which I'm sure there will be quite a few). An individual person's body is entirely sovreign to that person and any effort by any outside group is entirely in violation of that person's rights.

[karl]

Originally posted by Cain
Silly abortion non-arguments.

Is there ever any discussion about abortion in european countries and Australia? I doubt it.

Ever heard of Poland (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3035540.stm) or Ireland (http://www.rnw.nl/society/html/abortion020308.html)?

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
Please note, he's not saying, I am against banning abortion, he says he won't ban it completely because the American people haven't changed enough yet! It's clearly implied that given more time, when American culture changes more, banning abortions completely will be ok in George's mind.

I'm glad someone else picked up on this. Actually, I think it goes even farther than that.

My first response is that it's not that the "US is not ready for a total abortion ban," it's that the US does not _want_ a total abortion ban.

To say they aren't ready, as ImpyTimpy notes, implies that it is something that folks will come around to. Nice spin. It's a fairly underhanded way of saying "The people don't want it."

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Dubya should be ensuring that birth control, a much more desirable alternative, is promoted. I don't think he's in favour of that, though. And there are other alternatives that are even more desirable but get even less spotlight and funding. Specifically, I'm talking about homes for unwed mothers and adoption. This is really more my fiancee's argument than my own so I can't argue it as well as she does, but I agree with her.

If these ultra-religious institutions really wanted to stop abortions, they'd do much better by providing better alternatives for these women rather than yell and scream at them about what they shouldn't do. They attack the symptom but ignore the problem.

edited to add:

Why is it there is such a social stigma agaisnt adopting a child, anyway?

[c0rbin]

That's a good position to take, considering the right generally hopes that the uneducated masses will teach their children where babies come from.

A little education will go a long way.

[American]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


A slut, mind you, who even at the nadir* of slatternliness* would still not screw you if your semen was the only cure for her cervical cancer.



Oh yes she would.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by American




(I'm also fairly pro-choice, though I think she's a SLUT for not controlling herself, sluts should have the right to be that way if they choose.)

Shouldn't the stud muffin mounted in the saddle have some reponsibilty as well? Or are stud muffins beyond control?

I like sluts! They make the best lovers!

[American]

Originally posted by Dancing David

Shouldn't the stud muffin mounted in the saddle have some reponsibilty as well? Or are stud muffins beyond control?


Excellent question.

The hypothetical slut in question is responsible for her own reputation, as is the jerk who knocked her up. Basically, it's up to the individual to judge each of them as a person. It's hard for me to imagine human beings lower than my own peers, yet evidence suggests they do exist in the form of the "stud muffin" you mention. Since I'm a Rich Guy, and I live in affluence and associate only with esteemed citizens, I rarely encounter such filth except when they are mugging me or robbing my home.

To sumarize: slut = bad, stud muffin = equal jerk who is far removed from my zone of observation.

[Cain]

Originally posted by karl


Ever heard of Poland (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3035540.stm) or Ireland (http://www.rnw.nl/society/html/abortion020308.html)?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they have Catholic problems. But still, in most european countries the debate is in another world.

Correct me if I'm under mistaken impressions, but I understand that in Sweden abortion is viewed as a medical procedure. The concpet of rights isn't injected into every disagreement as it is here in the States.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Cain
Silly abortion non-arguments.

Is there ever any discussion about abortion in european countries and Australia? I doubt it.

Oh, we have our share of numpties (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3079076.stm), but let's put it this way; if they had guns they'd be limping.