Palin, Prophecy, and End-Times

[varwoche]

The purpose of this thread is to explore Sarah Palin's apparent beliefs in prophecy, an apocalyptic end-times, Alaska's special role during end-times, and her intermingling of these topics with policy matters.

(1) and (2) are derived from the youtube videos that I imagine most forum regulars have already seen.

(1) Wasilla Assemblies of God Master's Commission (useful background for evidence that follows)

Movie preview style promo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkY5K1Sbh0Y)
Deeper Look (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPEjzTtWuKY)
God has a destiny for the state of Alaska
...
Master's Commission is one of the keys in God's plan for Alaska, United States and the entire world.
...
You learn how to prophesize. (3:05, Deeper Look) And from their website (http://www.mcwasillaalaska.com): During your time at MC:WA [Master's Comission Wasilla] you will be trained and matured in the prophetic gifts (2) Palin & Kalnins speaking to Master's Commission, June 2008

(Bear in mind that natural resources play along with "God's plan for Alaska".)

Video part 1: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1vPYbRB7k)

1:00 There's something going on in Alaska ... There's something going on here with where you all are going as Master's Commission students.

1:50 I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get the gas line built, so pray for that.

2:40 We can work together to make sure God's will be done here.

4:45 What comes from this church I think has great destiny.

6:25 And that spirit of revelation, also including that spirit of prophecy, that God's going to tell you what is going on and what is going to go on.

6:55 Praying for an outpouring of God's spirit here, that revival to be here in Alaska.

Video Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k84m2orSOaM) same event, Palin and Kalnins on stage:

:20 Let's give Jesus thanks because she declared some things that were powerful.
...
1:25 There are some things about the natural resources, about the state. There are some things that God wants to tap into to be a refuge for the lower 48. And I believe that Alaska is one of the refuge states. Come on you guys, in the last days. And hundreds and thousands of people are going to come this state to seek refuge.

(3) Official Positions of Assemblies of God link (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/index.cfm#)

The Assemblies of God understands the biblical description of end-time events to be literal, not symbolic (as do some churches).
...
[second coming] isn’t a myth, a metaphor for something abstract, or just a figure of speech. It’s a real, visible event that will shock the world at some future point. History will abruptly come to its climax with the Second Coming of Jesus.
...
The Assemblies of God believes wholeheartedly in the contemporary prophetic ministry.
...
Even though the Bible is not primarily a book of science, it is as trustworthy in the area of science as when it speaks to any other subject. And it's all the sorrier when, due to cultural norms and political realities (not to mention her sequestration), Palin will not be challenged on this craziness.

[corplinx]

There is probably a copy of this on her bookshelf as well:
http://www.leftbehind.com/

[Ausmerican]

There is probably a copy of this on her bookshelf as well:
http://www.leftbehind.com/

That would explain her incoherent sentence structure and terrible grammar.

[Meadmaker]

There is probably a copy of this on her bookshelf as well:
http://www.leftbehind.com/

There's a copy on my bookshelf as well. My (Jewish) wife loved them. She was surprised when I explained to her that most of the readers of those novels believed they were reality.

[XBoxWarrior]

Ok...it's true that Sarah is a nutter.

But for the past 7+ years we have had a moron at the helm.

Why do United States citizens prefer the less qualified?

"End Times" folks really scare me, because they think that god is just hugging us tighter as the polar ice caps melt.

Morons.

[corplinx]

because they think that god is just hugging us tighter as the polar ice caps melt.

I'm glad you get your information from Lorne Michaels. That explains quite a bit about the quality of the posts.

[BenBurch]

I'm glad you get your information from Lorne Michaels. That explains quite a bit about the quality of the posts.

Be fair; Thinking the observation expressed by a humorist might really reflect on the truth isn't unreasonable. I think Samuel Clemens was Right On very often, for example.

[corplinx]

Since this thread is open, we might as well add the wacky religious things about the other candidates as well.

Barack Obama joined and spent the last 20 years raising his children in a black liberation theology church. Here are some choice quotes from "Black Theology and Black Power" which is one of the main influences of the black liberation theology movement.

-Therefore, simply to say that Jesus did not use violence is no evidence relevant to the condition of black people as they decide on what to do about white oppression
-Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil."
-All white men are responsible for white oppression.

Joe Biden is a member of the catholic church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

And apparently, they also think the following man hears and speaks to God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

John McCain
Used to be Episcopal. Now Southern Baptist.

The Southern Baptist's are bigtime into big ugly Mega-Churches with fitness centers and diploma mills. They are very anti-gay.

We can have a reasonable and rational discussion of the woo involved with Black Liberation Theology, Catholicism, the Baptists, and the Assemblies of God (who Palin is no longer a member of). I don't see the need to single out Palin's own Church.

[maxfrost]

Be fair; Thinking the observation expressed by a humorist might really reflect on the truth isn't unreasonable. I think Samuel Clemens was Right On very often, for example.

For example:

"When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane, not in all things, but in religious matters. When a thoughtful and unblessed Mohammedan examines the Westminster Catechism, he knows that beyond any question I am spiritually insane. I cannot prove to him that he is insane, because you never can prove anything to a lunatic — for that is a part of his insanity and the evidence of it. He cannot prove to me that I am insane, for my mind has the same defect that afflicts his... When I look around me, I am often troubled to see how many people are mad."

[varwoche]

Since this thread is open, we might as well add the wacky religious things about the other candidates as well. I'm hoping to keep this thread on topic.

[eeyore1954]

It is almost certain that as a member of an Assembly of God church she believes in end times prophecy. But how far off topic is to explore what you could infer others believe based upon what churches they attend.

[varwoche]

It is almost certain that as a member of an Assembly of God church she believes in end times prophecy. We have evidence here that is more substantial that just what church she attended.

But how far off topic is to explore what you could infer others believe based upon what churches they attend. Far enough. The thread topic is quite clear.

[varwoche]

According to Kalnins, there are three refuge states -- Alaska, Wisconsin and one other. ecxj1C1xJWA People from around the world will be coming to the state of Alaska to get something from God.

There is some states that God considered as refuge states. I've heard prophesied over the years, one is Wisconsin. And the other one is, uh, there's one other one in the lower 48, and the other one that was prophesied years ago and has been echoed along the way is Alaska where God is going to basically reserve them for a place of refuge because the earth is groaning for the return of God. I'm curious to track down the origins of the refuge state concept. (Is God a federalist?)

[boloboffin]

Palin's recent unusual phrasing that nuclear weaponry was the "be all and end all" for many people is much too close to the Christian phrase "Alpha and Omega" to me. However, nuclear war is one of those things that apocalyptic and existential thinking is appropriately reserved for. I just am taken aback to consider anyone thinking that Jesus has our backs when the nukes start flying, much less someone who could conceivably have a hand in making the actual decision.

The question is not, what wacky thing does she believe, but, is she apt to act on these types of extreme beliefs? Has she given any indication that she can give due credence to the possibility that she might be wrong?

On the matter of refuge states, the concept probably comes from the cities of refuge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_of_refuge) seen in the Torah. They were cities to where people thought to have committed murder could flee for a fair trial. It was a method to help alleviate the plague of vengeance killing that remains with humanity today.

However, this is a doctrine I've not run across yet. It could be an idiosyncratic belief of this particular preacher. Alaska could be seen as remote enough to escape much of the Tribulation (the wrath of God), and thus become a natural site of refugees from that horrific future event. That place of safe haven is evident by the very "design" of Alaska, and thus it would be seen as holding a holy place in God's future plans for Earth. It's logical once you accept the premises.

[quarky]

Mormons thought Missouri was the place.

[Alferd_Packer]

As a side note, I wonder if a Palin/McCain aadministration would bring back James Watt for a cabinet post. Or maybe just head of the EPA. ;)

[Radrook]

Funny. I don't recall anyone ever criticizing any president for his religious beliefs. Kennedy was Catholic he didn't need to repudiate all his religious beliefs. In fact, most presidents have been religionists who attend church. That never was a big issue before.
So why should it suddenly be a big issue now?

[varwoche]

Funny. I don't recall anyone ever criticizing any president for his religious beliefs. Kennedy was Catholic he didn't need to repudiate all his religious beliefs. In fact, most presidents have been religionists who attend church. That never was a big issue before.
So why should it suddenly be a big issue now? First of all, your recollection is poor, even the Kennedy example. But no matter. Let's pretend that no candidate for P/VP in recent times has been criticized on religious grounds.

Maybe it's because Palin occupies the extreme fringe.

When you throw all religion into one great big bucket, you lose the ability to distinguish between moderate and extreme.

[Radrook]

First of all, your recollection is poor, even the Kennedy example. But no matter. Let's pretend that no candidate for P/VP in recent times has been criticized on religious grounds.

I meant the policies implemented once the candidates had been elected to office. Do you know of any presidential policy that was criticized based on the religious affiliation of the President involved? Or any USA president accused of having failed in his presidency due primarily to his religious beliefs? Reagan was against abortion wasn't he? Was Reagan a lesser president because of it? Would approval of gay marriages or unrestricted right to abortion based on atheistic amoralism make for a better president? Those in favor of these would say yes. Those against would say no. But ultimately, these two so-called religious issues haven't been the primary determinants in evaluating a president;s success or lack of success in office.

BTW

I am aware of criticism of USA policy toward Israel. But I seriously doubt that the motives have been purely religious. Also the abortion issue, and gay marriage issue has been attributed to religious beliefs.

Maybe it's because Palin occupies the extreme fringe.

The the fringe is identifiable? That seems to contradict your statement below.

When you throw all religion into one great big bucket, you lose the ability to distinguish between moderate and extreme.


The same can be said of atheists but it wouldn't hold much water.
We can easily distinguish among the extreme and the moderate regardless of the variety of beliefs involved. The Aztec human sacrifices or any other type of ritual human sacrifice is recognizable as extreme. In short, the guidelines for human rights
and recognition of their violation, and the principles of cogent reasoning available to us remain intact and at our disposal regardless of the variety of beliefs might be presented with. So I really don't understand what you mean by inability to tell. Care to explain

[varwoche]

I meant the policies implemented once the candidates had been elected to office. How does this relate to the price of bread? (Answer: It doesn't.)

But isn't the "fringe" as you say, a matter of opinion? No, not really. Palin's church and her apparent beliefs are on the fringe by any reasonable standard.

The same can be said of atheists. Er, um, back to the bread.

[Radrook]

How does this relate to the price of bread? (Answer: It doesn't.)

How does Palin's religion relate to the price of bread?


No, not really. Palin's church and her apparent beliefs are on the fringe by any reasonable standard.

Perhaps, but isn't it a bit presumptuous to assume that she would let her religious beliefs interfere with her responsibilities as VP. Even more relevant, have her religious beliefs interfered with her governorship of Alaska? If they have, then you might have a case. If they haven't, then there is no precedent on which to base suspicions that she will. Especially when she has stated that she won't.


Er, um, back to the bread.

Third verse same as the first!

[varwoche]

How does Palin's religion relate to the price of bread? Obviously because: (1) a person who believes in a literal, apocalyptic end-times might act on this belief, and (2) Palin is on record intermingling her beliefs in prophecy with policy matters.

Perhaps, but isn't it a bit presumptuous to assume that she would let her religious beliefs interfere with her responsibilities as VP. I don't assume she would. I assume she might. (Palin as VP isn't the concern; Palin as POTUS is the concern.)

If I was sure that an apocalypse was going to happen next week, I'd do everything in my power to help relieve human suffering. Wouldn't you?

[corplinx]

Obviously because: (1) a person who believes in a literal, apocalyptic end-times might act on this belief, and (2) Palin is on record intermingling her beliefs in prophecy with policy matters.


On your first point. Bill Hicks said it better and funnier but without the pretension of skeptical inquiry to hide behind.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I'm hoping to keep this thread on topic.

Could you also include some of the wacky (non-religious) beliefs of Michael Badnarik? ;)

[Nogbad]

Once elected do P/VPs really throw more than a few crumbs to the religious lobby?

[mhaze]

Obviously because: (1) a person who believes in a literal, apocalyptic end-times might act on this belief, and (2) Palin is on record intermingling her beliefs in prophecy with policy matters.

I don't assume she would. I assume she might. (Palin as VP isn't the concern; Palin as POTUS is the concern.)

If I was sure that an apocalypse was going to happen next week, I'd do everything in my power to help relieve human suffering. Wouldn't you?

Palin is on record intermingling her beliefs in prophecy with policy matters.

Where?

She's on record a vast number of times to the opposite. Just another Palin smear that don't stick.

....When you throw all religion into one great big bucket, you lose the ability to distinguish between moderate and extreme.Eisenhower.

[quarky]

I'd still "do" her, but I hate me for it.

[varwoche]

On your first point. Bill Hicks said it better and funnier but without the pretension of skeptical inquiry to hide behind. Seeing as I don't know who Bill Hicks is, this conveys to me precisely nothing. But even if I was aware of Hicks, I'm guessing this nothing more than vacuous posturing. You can correct me if I'm wrong naturally, but otherwise please stop derailing the thread.

[varwoche]

Palin is on record intermingling her beliefs in prophecy with policy matters.

Where? Apparently you overlooked the OP.

[mhaze]

Apparently you overlooked the OP.

Apparently you overlooked that she left that church years ago.

Leaving it would indicate serious differences.

[Radrook]

Can you provide one example where Palin's religious beliefs caused her to do something detrimental to the State of Alaska?

[varwoche]

Apparently you overlooked that she left that church years ago. I'm glad you brought this up.

Palin attends three churches, two of them AOG/pentecostal (including Wasilla). Yet it's all whitewashed from her official bio. It's a charade.

But my point stands in any case. It's as clear as the day is long in the dead of summer in Wasilla that Palin said things in June, 2008 that were over-the-top delusional. And she claimed to know God's will on an important public policy matter. Correct?

Can you provide one example where Palin's religious beliefs caused her to do something detrimental to the State of Alaska? She's done a lot of questionable things as a public official. How am I to know which are motivated by voices she hears in her head?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Funny. I don't recall anyone ever criticizing any president for his religious beliefs. Kennedy was Catholic he didn't need to repudiate all his religious beliefs.

Your knowledge of history is as weak as your knowledge of biology.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16920600

[Radrook]

.
She's done a lot of questionable things as a public official. How am I to know which are motivated by voices she hears in her head?

Well, we can compare her decisions with official church doctrines and see if her decisions are reflect her church's beliefs. That isn't impossible to do.

[Whiplash]

As much is this will certainly be laughed at, and make me even less respected by many of you here, I am going to just come out and say it.

I love Palin. She's awesome. She is a rising star. And she is going to be a major player in Republican politics in the coming years. I guarantee it. I'd even suggest that the Democrats know it to, by their ongoing effort to completely destroy her now before she can get there. It's not just about beating McCain/Palin in 2008 anymore. There is a concerted effort to destroy her politically, forever.

My only concern is that she is being pushed into the spotlight too early. It's like in the NBA, where players can now come out of high school.. You can have a great, solid rising star, and it's possible they can be pushed into the spotlight too early and then they have to make or break based on little experience. It's a chance for them to fall down, and then be ruined forever because of it. It's a risk. But I think she is good enough and strong enough to ride it out, and I predict she is going to give heartburn to the left for many years to come.

[varwoche]

Well, we can compare her decisions with official church doctrines and see if her decisions are reflect her church's beliefs. That isn't impossible to do. Ya sure, let's see what church position is on gas pipelines.

(That was supposed to be sarcastic. But given Kalnins' excitement about God's plan for Alaska's energy, you never know. :D)

[mhaze]

I'm glad you brought this up.

Palin attends three churches, two of them AOG/pentecostal (including Wasilla). Yet it's all whitewashed from her official bio. It's a charade.

But my point stands in any case. It's as clear as the day is long in the dead of summer in Wasilla that Palin said things in June, 2008 that were over-the-top delusional. And she claimed to know God's will on an important public policy matter. Correct?

She's done a lot of questionable things as a public official. How am I to know which are motivated by voices she hears in her head?

Obama comes right out and talks about the voices in his head, makes you look rather foolish...

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2008/06/06/barack-obama-the-2004-god-factor-interview-transcript/ (http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2008/06/06/barack-obama-the-2004-god-factor-interview-transcript)

GGG:Is Jesus someone who you feel you have a regular connection with now, a personal connection with in your life?
OBAMA:Yeah. Yes. I think some of the thigns I talked about earlier are addressed through, are channeled through my Christian faith and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.


GG: you have people in your life that you look to for guidance?
OBAMA:Well, my pastor is certainly someone who I have an enormous amount of respect for.

GG: you pray often? OBAMA:Uh, yeah, I guess I do.
Its’ not formal, me getting on my knees. I think I have an ongoing conversation with God.

[Puppycow]

Obama comes right out and talks about the voices in his head, makes you look rather foolish...

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2008/06/06/barack-obama-the-2004-god-factor-interview-transcript/ (http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2008/06/06/barack-obama-the-2004-god-factor-interview-transcript)

GGG:Is Jesus someone who you feel you have a regular connection with now, a personal connection with in your life?
OBAMA:Yeah. Yes. I think some of the thigns I talked about earlier are addressed through, are channeled through my Christian faith and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.


GG: you have people in your life that you look to for guidance?
OBAMA:Well, my pastor is certainly someone who I have an enormous amount of respect for.

GG: you pray often? OBAMA:Uh, yeah, I guess I do.
Its’ not formal, me getting on my knees. I think I have an ongoing conversation with God.

Yeah, but is Obama a true believer? I have my doubts about both Obama and McCain, as well as Clinton. All American politicians have to pay lip service to religion. It's a political requirement. Bush strikes me as a true believer. So does Palin. IIRC, Obama has said he believes in Evolution, which rules out a literal interpretation of the Bible. 'Faith' then becomes more of a matter of conforming to social norms rather than actual woo.

[varwoche]

Obama comes right out and talks about the voices in his head, makes you look rather foolish... I'd appreciate it if you'd go start a new thread if you wish to discuss Obama's religion.

You didn't address the question I posed to you (in bold).

[varwoche]

However, this [Alaska as refuge state] is a doctrine I've not run across yet. It could be an idiosyncratic belief of this particular preacher. As best I can tell, this is a concept emanating from AoG Wasilla.

I've googled Alaska "end times" refuge -Palin -Wasilla -wildlife and many variations ("second coming" in place of "end times", etc.) and hit a blank.

[Radrook]

Ya sure, let's see what church position is on gas pipelines.

(That was supposed to be sarcastic. But given Kalnins' excitement about God's plan for Alaska's energy, you never know. :D)

Is her concept beneficial to Alaska?

[mhaze]

Yeah, but is Obama a true believer? I have my doubts about both Obama and McCain, as well as Clinton. All American politicians have to pay lip service to religion. It's a political requirement. Bush strikes me as a true believer. So does Palin. IIRC, Obama has said he believes in Evolution, which rules out a literal interpretation of the Bible. 'Faith' then becomes more of a matter of conforming to social norms rather than actual woo.Now you are delusional. The politician you like pays "lip service" to religion. The ones you don't like are "true believers".

But the facts do not support your view.

OBAMA:

...some of the thigns I talked about earlier are addressed through, are channeled through my Christian faith and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
...my pastor is certainly someone who I have an enormous amount of respect for.
...I have an ongoing conversation with God.

Want more?

[varwoche]

She's on record a vast number of times to the opposite. I've been meaning to get back to this gullible statement.

Very little weight should be assigned to self serving statements from politicians running for office. If we're to blithely take candidates' self serving words as fact, most of the threads posted here would be nipped in the bud immediately.

And this is all the more true when the self serving statements are blatant white-washes.

[mhaze]

I've been meaning to get back to this gullible statement.

Very little weight should be assigned to self serving statements from politicians running for office. If we're to blithely take candidates' self serving words as fact, most of the threads posted here would be nipped in the bud immediately.

And this is all the more true when the self serving statements are blatant white-washes.

Thank you for proving my point:

Now you are delusional. The politician you like pays "lip service" to religion. The ones you don't like are "true believers".

But the facts do not support your view.

OBAMA:

...some of the thigns I talked about earlier are addressed through, are channeled through my Christian faith and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
...my pastor is certainly someone who I have an enormous amount of respect for.
...I have an ongoing conversation with God.

Want more?

[Swagomatic]

Last night, I was having a similar discussion with my wife, my sister and my brother-in-law. We were discussing some people's idea that Sarah Palin is a refreshing alternative to "Washington elites." We also discussed Sarah Palin's religion, and its possible influence on any decisions she may have to make. The question that keeps occurring to me is: Is this the best we can aspire to? Do we really want "Joe Six-pack" to be our (vice) president?

Then, today, I found this article by Sam Harris. It says exactly what I meant to say, but says it so much better. Sam Harris in Newsweek (http://www.newsweek.com/id/160080/page/1)

[varwoche]

Thank you for proving my point...
Want more? No thank you. Once I've exhausted the thread topic I'll be glad to re-vist this however.

As to the thread topic, if you can't bother to address the questions I pose to you then attempting dialog is a waste of time -- it's like trying to talk with a bot.

[Tricky]

As much is this will certainly be laughed at, and make me even less respected by many of you here, I am going to just come out and say it.

I love Palin. She's awesome. She is a rising star. And she is going to be a major player in Republican politics in the coming years. I guarantee it. I'd even suggest that the Democrats know it to, by their ongoing effort to completely destroy her now before she can get there. It's not just about beating McCain/Palin in 2008 anymore. There is a concerted effort to destroy her politically, forever.

My only concern is that she is being pushed into the spotlight too early. It's like in the NBA, where players can now come out of high school.. You can have a great, solid rising star, and it's possible they can be pushed into the spotlight too early and then they have to make or break based on little experience. It's a chance for them to fall down, and then be ruined forever because of it. It's a risk. But I think she is good enough and strong enough to ride it out, and I predict she is going to give heartburn to the left for many years to come.
I wouldn't say it's impossible, but she'll have to smarten up a bit. I figure she might might become a touchstone for the far right, sort of a Rick Santorum sort of character, but I cannot see her ever again being a national player.

If she loses, this will have been her fifteen minutes.

[BenBurch]

Whiplash,

I am so sorry that we ARE going to destroy your rising star's career. You can go to the bank on that. She'd have made a great Congressperson, though.

-Ben

[dirtywick]

Whiplash,

I am so sorry that we ARE going to destroy your rising star's career. You can go to the bank on that. She'd have made a great Congressperson, though.

-Ben

That's quite the threat coming from a party as inept as the Democrats; I mean, an election this close after eight years of Bush is almost bizarre. But, you seem pretty proud of yourself so I guess that's what important here.

[mhaze]

Whiplash,

I am so sorry that we ARE going to destroy your rising star's career. You can go to the bank on that. She'd have made a great Congressperson, though.

-Ben

Gloat-festing smear merchants are a cheap commodity these days.

[mhaze]

No thank you. Once I've exhausted the thread topic I'll be glad to re-vist this however.

As to the thread topic, if you can't bother to address the questions I pose to you then attempting dialog is a waste of time -- it's like trying to talk with a bot.Yes, crawl back to a safe place. By the way, if the concept of Alaska as a refuge state is new to you, you really need to Google better.

More facts.

Palin considers herself a born-again Christian.

Obama considers himself a born again Christian.

[varwoche]

By the way, if the concept of Alaska as a refuge state is new to you, you really need to Google better. Here's a novel concept you might consider: How about sharing your knowledge instead of playing infantile games?

[mhaze]

Here's a novel concept you might consider: How about sharing your knowledge instead of playing infantile games?Sure, but I gotta admit to thinking this was obvious. Apparently not.

1. People have gone to Alaska to start a new life-it's a frontier. This isn't going to change. It has been a refuge state for a whole lot of people. Often ducking the law, bill collectors, other people/spouses, etc.

2. I'd like to not be bothered to count the number of "Alaska XXX/YYY/ZZZ (Wildlife, Fish, blah blah blah) Refuges" established as fact in Alaska.

[varwoche]

Sure, but I gotta admit to thinking this was obvious. Apparently not.

1. People have gone to Alaska to start a new life-it's a frontier. This isn't going to change. It has been a refuge state for a whole lot of people. Often ducking the law, bill collectors, other people/spouses, etc.

2. I'd like to not be bothered to count the number of "Alaska XXX/YYY/ZZZ (Wildlife, Fish, blah blah blah) Refuges" established as fact in Alaska. I actually thought for a moment you had something to contribute, and not just more infantile drivel. Silly me.

[mhaze]

I actually thought for a moment you had something to contribute, and not just more infantile drivel. Silly me.

Oh, you mean contribute to your smear attack of the OP:

The purpose of this thread is to explore Sarah Palin's apparent beliefs in prophecy, an apocalyptic end-times, Alaska's special role during end-times, and her intermingling of these topics with policy matters.

But not use the same logical method to explore Obama's being born again by the hand of Rev. Wright? His channeling God? His curious belief that the Holy Spirit comes down on him when he speaks?

Yes, silly you.

[varwoche]

One of Palin's three churches is not affiliated with AoG, and this has been (vaguely) offered as evidence that maybe Palin doesn't actually believe in prophecy and end-times (contrary to her June 2008 statements).

Not so fast. Here's a sermon (http://wasillabible.org/sermon_files/2008_Sermons/wbc080413.mp3) (mp3) from Larry Kroons, pastor of the non-affiliated Wasilla Bible Church titled Gripping the Prophetic Future:
I'm going to give you a functional grip on the prophetic future ... You will be able to step out of here with a clear-headed confidence about what lies ahead, and how to live in light of that. That when the subject of prophecy and future events and the return of Jesus comes to your mind, it's not a clouded maze. You see with clarity and you're able to live with confidence ... I want to make sure you get some certain basic things locked in solid when the subject of the future comes up.

There's a lot more of Kroon's sermons (http://wasillabible.org/sermons.htm) to slog through. (ah, the simple joys)

[varwoche]

Some old business... Thank you for proving my point: Now you are delusional. The politician you like pays "lip service" to religion. The ones you don't like are "true believers".
This is 200 proof self-serving presupposition. I haven't written one syllable about Obama in this thread. (Actually, I don't think I've ever posted on the subject of Obama's religious beliefs.)

As to your goofy suggestion that Obama's religiosity is on par with Palin's:


Obama is on record that evolution is fact. Unlike Palin.
Obama has never advocated teaching creationism in public school. Unlike Palin.
Obama is not on record claiming to know "God's will" on public policy matters. Unlike Palin.
Obama is not on record claiming prophetic abilities. Unlike Palin.
Obama is not on record about end-times (nor Alaska's special role as a sanctuary ;)) Unlike Palin.

[varwoche]

Palin's own words make the strongest case that she believes in prophecy, end times, and that Alaska has a special role as a refuge during end times.

On top of Palin's words we have the apocalyptic raving of Wasilla AOG Pastor Kalnins (alongside Palin). And we also have the apocalyptic raving of Kroon, pastor of the supposedly less extreme fundamentalist church amongst Palin's three churches. (I haven't discussed the AOG church she attends in Juneau. It's fertile territory, time allowing and if I remain interested.)

Another piece of work is Mary Glazer (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/102140/is_palin_a_member_of_%27spiritual_warfare%27_praye r_group/), part of Palin's prayer goup (time period unknown), Alaskan Independence Party member, and yes, another witch hunter.

(first :45 of video is silent)

Here's more Glazer gibbering (http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/6897) about future terrorist attacks (scroll down).

[UnrepentantSinner]

Oh yeah! What about Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, Louis Fahrakan, Khalid Sheik Mohammed and all the other religious loonies that Obama subscribed to newsletters from and engaged in orgies with?

Booyah!

[varwoche]

Correction: Glazier, not Glazer. Another piece of work is Mary Glazer (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/102140/is_palin_a_member_of_%27spiritual_warfare%27_praye r_group/), part of Palin's prayer goup (time period unknown), Alaskan Independence Party member, and yes, another witch hunter.

(first :45 of video is silent)

Here's more Glazer gibbering (http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/6897) about future terrorist attacks (scroll down).

[Puppycow]

Now you are delusional. The politician you like pays "lip service" to religion. The ones you don't like are "true believers".

But the facts do not support your view.

OBAMA:

...some of the thigns I talked about earlier are addressed through, are channeled through my Christian faith and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
...my pastor is certainly someone who I have an enormous amount of respect for.
...I have an ongoing conversation with God.

Want more?

You can trot out all the professions of religious belief you want. They are entirely consistant with the hypothesis that he's paying lip service to religion.
It's part of being a politician. I am not delusional because I don't claim to really know what anyone's true beliefs are, just what they appear to be.

And notice that I also lumped McCain in with Obama and Clinton as politicians who I suspect may have less religious faith than they profess.

[mhaze]

You can trot out all the professions of religious belief you want. They are entirely consistant with the hypothesis that he's paying lip service to religion.
It's part of being a politician. I am not delusional because I don't claim to really know what anyone's true beliefs are, just what they appear to be.

And notice that I also lumped McCain in with Obama and Clinton as politicians who I suspect may have less religious faith than they profess.Yet the absurd, vain and clumsy lurches of atheist logic may exceed the undeniable hubris of a religious believer. When the atheist applies his personal prejudice and finds his preferred polititions "are only paying lip service to religion" , then further finds that those of the opposing party are dangerous true believers...this only makes the devout atheist look silly.

"One step past Rev. Wright is tinfoil hat territory".

[thaiboxerken]

Right.. because the people of the USA would clearly not care if a Presidential Candidate announced he was atheist, or muslim............or non-christian.

[Tricky]

This thread has beed reopened for further discussion as requested by the thread starter. He apparently has new information to add.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Palin is on record intermingling her beliefs in prophecy with policy matters.

Where?


I don't know about prophecy, but she's definitely on record of letting her religious views influence her political stances.

The Eagle Forum questionnaire (http://tinyurl.com/574n97) she filled out in her gubernatorial campaign (which was removed from the web shortly after she hit the national stage) indicated that she opposed extending benefits to same-sex marriage partners and that she was opposed to explicit sex ed (favoring abstinence only education).

Elsewhere (http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/story/8347904p-8243554c.html), she stated that she was in favor of teaching creationism in public school science classes.*

*Yes I know she used weasel words like "allow the debate" but ever since Dover, people advocating creationism this way have lost the benefit of the doubt. Also, since there is no scientific controversy or debate about ID/Creationism/Creation Science in regard to the central organizing principle of biology (evolution), I find it distressing that anyone would even advocate allowing the "debate". It has no place in public elementary or secondary school science classrooms.

[Frank Newgent]

According to Kalnins, there are three refuge states -- Alaska, Wisconsin and one other.
Wisconsin? Not refuge but refuse (http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/308632)

NECEDAH — As sure as the galloon matches the stole, tongues are wagging here about the auction Saturday of the contents of a home-cum-chapel formerly occupied by Alan A. Bushey and his flock, members of the tiny and shrinking Immaculate Conception Community.

And no, that is not the place where a follower of that group died on the toilet, but it is close.

Bushey, 58, aka Bishop John Peter Bushey, is out on bail, awaiting trial on charges stemming from the discovery last May of the corpse of a devout supporter who died of natural causes and was left to decompose on a toilet in a one-bathroom rural Necedah home, just a few blocks from the chapel.

The body of 90-year-old Magdeline Alvina Middlesworth had been there two months, and the smell eventually alerted inquiring authorities...


...Bushey, as leader of the group, is accused of harming a child by predicting financial doom to two children and threatening to send the children to public school if they revealed there was a corpse in the bathroom. In a trial set for April, he also faces charges of hiding a corpse, and, in connection with the dead woman's financial affairs, theft.