Major Homeopathy Test about to be conducted in Greece?

[Ray T.]

Hello Everyone :)

According to what I consider to be credible sources, there is a forthcoming major homeopathy test to be conducted in Greece.

To my knowledge Mr. Vithoulkas has applied for the Million Dollar Challenge and a hosting institution for the test has been found.

Moreover, I am informed that never has this test been abandoned by the Greek homeopathy community as it is claimed by Mr. Randi (SWIFT March 14, 2008)

Is there an an official JREF position on the matter?

[Mojo]

According to what I consider to be credible sources, there is a forthcoming major homeopathy test to be conducted in Greece.


Who is conducting the test, and are they going to be using a protocol agreed by the JREF?

[GzuzKryzt]

...
Is there an an official JREF position on the matter?

The JREF Staff does not frequent the forum regularly. For an official answer please contact: challenge@randi.org

[Gravy]

To my knowledge Mr. Vithoulkas has applied for the Million Dollar Challenge and a hosting institution for the test has been found.
Welcome to the forums, Ray T.

Mr. Vithoulkas is not listed as an MDC applicant (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43&sort=lastpost&order=desc), nor is there anything about it on his website (http://www.vithoulkas.com/) (assuming this is who you mean). Where did you hear this?

I've sent him an email pointing to this thread and asked if he has applied for the MDC or intends to.

[snoop_doxie]

From George Vithoulkas' website:

The message of the month
"The term classical homeopathy was termed by George Vithoulkas in the mid seventies to indicate that the rules of Hahnemann, as expressed in the Organon, was to be followed, not to be transgressed or changed in order for one to claim he was practicing classical homeopathy. For instance, a remedy can cure symptoms that can be produced in a proving. If there is no proving but only an imagination of what a remedy could cure, this rule is demolished and therefore the homeopath should claim to practice an imaginary something but not homeopathy."

If someone here can translate for me please? I am interested in the Homeopathy challenges, but the practitioners seem to speak in riddles.

When reading the OP, did anyone feel some deja vu?:hypnotize

[Gravy]

Snoop, take a few minutes to read up on Samuel Hahnemann and homeopathy, the system of treatment he pulled out of his ass, at Stephen Barrett's excellent Quackwatch site (http://quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html). The concept of a "proving" is discussed there. The Organon is Hahnemann's book containing his rules for homeopathic practice.

Vithoulkas is saying that people who don't follow Hahnemann's system, including individualized (and bogus) diagnosis via provings, shouldn't call themselves homeopaths. What he's really saying is that these people are robbing him of potential customers. The vast majority of homeopathic remedies are purchased from the shelves of pharmacies, health food stores, and other markets, without any diagnosis or recommendation by a homeopath, just as I might buy cough syrup if I have a cold. The difference is that cough syrup has medicine in it, and homeopathic remedies do not.

On average, I would expect someone who sees a homeopath to recover from their sniffles or aches somewhat faster than someone who picks a homeopathic remedy off the shelf, because of the care and attention shown by the homeopath, and the investment of time and cash by the patient.

[fls]

On average, I would expect someone who sees a homeopath to recover from their sniffles or aches somewhat faster than someone who picks a homeopathic remedy off the shelf, because of the care and attention shown by the homeopath, and the investment of time and cash by the patient.

I want to suggest a small change to more accurately reflect what we see.

"I would expect someone who sees a homeopath to [report that they] recover from their sniffles or aches somewhat faster..."

Linda

[snoop_doxie]

Snoop, take a few minutes to read up on Samuel Hahnemann and homeopathy, the system of treatment he pulled out of his ass, at Stephen Barrett's excellent Quackwatch site (http://quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html). The concept of a "proving" is discussed there. The Organon is Hahnemann's book containing his rules for homeopathic practice.

Thanks Gravy. I will be reading Quackwatch today.

Vithoulkas is saying that people who don't follow Hahnemann's system, including individualized (and bogus) diagnosis via provings, shouldn't call themselves homeopaths.

Ahhh, I see now. There is a split in the homeopathic community? Interesting.

What he's really saying is that these people are robbing him of potential customers. The vast majority of homeopathic remedies are purchased from the shelves of pharmacies, health food stores, and other markets, without any diagnosis or recommendation by a homeopath, just as I might buy cough syrup if I have a cold. The difference is that cough syrup has medicine in it, and homeopathic remedies do not.

While walking thru my local Walgreen's yesterday, there was a discount bin full of homeopathic remedies. I was amazed and a little saddened to see how much these remedies cost originally. It seems wrong to take a sick person's money, and that sick person can only hope to "feel" better, not get better.

On average, I would expect someone who sees a homeopath to recover from their sniffles or aches somewhat faster than someone who picks a homeopathic remedy off the shelf, because of the care and attention shown by the homeopath, and the investment of time and cash by the patient.

Yep, it's nice to have someone care. :rolleyes:

[Gravy]

I want to suggest a small change to more accurately reflect what we see.

"I would expect someone who sees a homeopath to [report that they] recover from their sniffles or aches somewhat faster..."

Linda
Good point.

Ray? Where'd you go?

[hellen]

hello everybody

I had heard about Vithoulkas and the MDC some time ago.
As far as I've read, Vithoulkas has been very committed to homeopathy and reliable so it seems strange that he withdrew. At that time I thought he would definitely take the challenge! I'd be interesting to know what happened and why he withdrew. Does anyone have a clue?

[Jackalgirl]

Hi, Hellen --

Welcome to the Forum! As has been pointed out, the only way to get official answers about the Challenge (and Challenge-related claims) is to send an email to challenge@randi.org.

I've never heard of Mr. Vithoulkas, so I can't say anything for certain (and certainly don't speak for JREF); however, I've been watching the Challenge for a while so I can offer you some speculation.

One of the hardest things about the Challenge to grasp (especially for homeopaths) is that the results have to be unambiguous. That means there can't be any subjective judgement required. And the results have to be completely self-evident. It's very hard to do this with many homeopathic claims. For example, let's say someone claims that he can cure headaches with a 30C dilution of Pure Essence of Widget. The hard thing about this is: how can you demonstrate that anyone involved actually has a headache? Sure, they could /say/ that they have headaches, but how can you be sure? It's a subjective thing.

Many attempts to demonstrate homeopathy require, essentially, large-scale medical trials. This is generally out of the scope of the Challenge because of the time and resources it would require, all of which have to be paid for by the claimant. You'd have to have a really large pool of people. It's not to say that it's impossible; however, it's generally beyond the scope of claimant's ability to arrange.

Some simpler demonstrations have been suggested: in particular, check out Homeoproofer's Challenge thread. In particular, he claims (or claimed, at one point) to be able to distinguish between an ordinary container of solvent and a container of solvent with a 30C (or greater) dilution in it, by means of the fact that he (or his wife) would experience a reaction to the homeopathic preparation but would not with the container of solvent. It's been ages since I checked out the thread, but the ultimate problem (as I understand it) is that although he was initially 100% certain that this would work, he has tried it out and, well, it doesn't work.

If Vithoulkas would claim (and demonstrate) that he's able to pick out a homeopathic remedy among an array of non-homeopathic preparations at a rate statistically higher than chance, I am sure that the JREF would be VERY interested. But we don't know what his claim is (if there is, in fact, any claim at the moment).

Once again, welcome to the Forum!

[Georg]

Some googling brought up this:

They know Vithoulkas and in a sense they trust him. He was recognized in Hungary some years before, based on the proposal of the association, but as they say, his reputation is very much declining now. The only real question they asked was why Vithoulkas had not been able to find an alternative hosting institution in Greece? This is a good question indeed and I could not answer it. Partly because of this, they tended to believe that we have some “secret agenda.”

from here. (http://www.randi.org/joom/swift/swift-march-14-2008.html#i2) That article linked to

One reason I think that this massive project will never happen, is because a huge test of homeopathy – a notion without which medicine could move ahead much more easily – was recently planned to be done in to be done in Hungary, the funding was in place, the JREF prize was up for grabs, the homeopathic community said it was eager to get on with it, and yet – after all this time – we still have no definite agreement nor venue arranged. This, as I’ve said before, is very typical of those who apply for the million-dollar prize. The JREF will stay with this until a final cancellation is announced by the homeopaths. It will never come from us. We’re like that, adhering to our agreements, no matter what… (I regret that, in error, I specified Greece in the earlier version of this entry, and said that the homeopaths had withdrawn. They are apparently – as of October of 2008, still trying to get a venue – and other facilities – locked in. This correction appeared October 6th, 2008.)


from here. (http://www.randi.org/joom/swift/swift-march-7-2008-2.html#i10)

[hellen]

Thank you Jackagirl for the welcoming and the information
I think Vithoulkas was about to do it that way, by recognizing who has taken the homeopathic remedy and who has taken placebo. It would be an interesting experiment to take place. This guy doesn't seem to joke about this. I wonder what happened....?

[Cuddles]

Ahhh, I see now. There is a split in the homeopathic community? Interesting.

Oh no, there's not a split. There are almost as many splits as there are homeopaths. It's just like any other kind of quackery or woo. Since it's not actually based on evidence, logic or reality, you can make up whatever you feel like, and many people do exactly that. Of course, since what they make up tends to differ from person to person, they are forced to fight amongst themselves as to whose made up crap is the real made up crap.

What can be particularly fun with homeopaths is not just watching them fight each other, but watching them contradict themselves, often in the same sentence. For example, the issue of diagnosis and prescription versus over the counter remedies has already been mentioned. Most homeopaths support one while vigorously denouncing the other as quackery, but apparently fail no notice that the sources they quote in support are almost always a mix of the two.

It seems wrong to take a sick person's money, and that sick person can only hope to "feel" better, not get better.

Well, the big problem with homeopathy, and other quackery, is that the sick person usually does get better. This is because the sick person would have got better anyway, but it can be very hard convincing people of that. There are usually laws against claiming quackery can actually heal serious illness, and I've never even heard of homeopath stupid enough to claim to heal things like broken bones, so the quacks are left to the minor, self-limiting ailments which will often recover at the same rate regardless of what you do.

[Georg]

I wonder what happened....?

Maybe you haven´t seen my post, because you posted only minutes after me.
In case you missed it, the reason seems to be that one:

They are apparently – as of October of 2008, still trying to get a venue – and other facilities – locked in.

[Ray T.]

I have redirected my question to the JREF staff by email and I am waiting for a reply.

[Ray T.]

From SWIFT, 7 March 2008

(I regret that, in error, I specified Greece in the earlier version of this entry, and said that the homeopaths had withdrawn. They are apparently – as of October of 2008, still trying to get a venue – and other facilities – locked in. This correction appeared October 6th, 2008.)

A tad bit of sloppiness on Mr. Randi's part.

Yet, the error has propagated to SWIFT, 14 March 2008, as I have already pointed out:

Last week I mentioned at randi.org/joom/content/view/172/27/#i10 that a major test of homeopathy in Greece has met the expected fate, being abandoned by the homeopathy community. Now, this 1,000-word notice has arrived from Gábor Hraskó, Executive President of the Hungarian Skeptic Society:


Maybe another correction is in order?

[Mojo]

Hello again.

What were the "credible sources" for your information about the proposed test?
you say they have found a "hosting institution". What is this institution? Will it actually be carrying out the test, or is it merely providing premises and resources for the test to be carried out by a third party?
If the "institution" is not carrying out the test itself, who is?
Has the protocol they will be using been agreed with JREF?

[Ray T.]

My sources are beside the point. The JREF ought to be a valid, legitimate source itself.

I do not hold any answers really. I am asking questions as you do, and I am opting for an answer from them. So, let us see what they have to say.

[hellen]

hello
yes Georg i didn't see your post. Thanks!
I had heard about a hospital carrying out the experiment, but i don't have detailed information. I suppose they must have first agreed on a protocol with JREF before looking for an institution to carry out the experiment.
However, this was sometime ago and I don't have any updates on how things are now and if this is indeed on its way as Ray T says.
I think we should know what Vithoulkas is up to!
JREF should post some news on that.

[snoop_doxie]

Ray T.

Please help me understand your postings. I thought your first post was an announcement (from you) about Mr. Vithoulkas' upcoming Million Dollar Challenge. You, (Ray T.) had some information that Mr. Randi's comments in SWIFT March 14 were premature and the test had not been abandoned by the Greek homeopathy community.

Hello Everyone

According to what I consider to be credible sources, there is a forthcoming major homeopathy test to be conducted in Greece.

To my knowledge Mr. Vithoulkas has applied for the Million Dollar Challenge and a hosting institution for the test has been found.

Moreover, I am informed that never has this test been abandoned by the Greek homeopathy community as it is claimed by Mr. Randi (SWIFT March 14, 2008)

Is there an an official JREF position on the matter?

Then your next post implies that Mr. Randi corrected himself in a later addition of SWIFT (October 6, 2008). Are the parentheses around the first paragraph supposed to be quotes?

From SWIFT, 7 March 2008

(I regret that, in error, I specified Greece in the earlier version of this entry, and said that the homeopaths had withdrawn. They are apparently – as of October of 2008, still trying to get a venue – and other facilities – locked in. This correction appeared October 6th, 2008.)

A tad bit of sloppiness on Mr. Randi's part.

Yet, the error has propagated to SWIFT, 14 March 2008, as I have already pointed out:

Last week I mentioned at randi.org/joom/content/view/172/27/#i10 that a major test of homeopathy in Greece has met the expected fate, being abandoned by the homeopathy community. Now, this 1,000-word notice has arrived from Gábor Hraskó, Executive President of the Hungarian Skeptic Society:


Maybe another correction is in order?

How is this sloppy on Mr. Randi's part? You do realize that October 6 follows March 7 by almost 7 months? Then you insert something from SWIFT from March 14 and ask for another correction?
What should be corrected? Is there a homeopathy Million Dollar Challenge coming soon? How are the Greek homeopaths connected to the Hungarian Skeptics?

:boggled: :confused:

[Mojo]

My sources are beside the point. The JREF ought to be a valid, legitimate source itself.

I do not hold any answers really. I am asking questions as you do, and I am opting for an answer from them. So, let us see what they have to say.


You must have got the information from somewhere.

Is what you put in your first post really all you have? It seems a little insubstantial as a basis for demanding corrections.

[hellen]

hello
I understand, Ray T means that at that time (in March) the experiment was on its way or at least the homeopaths were not withdrawn from the MDC, hence the 'sloppiness'. If what Ray T says is valid, JREF should have corrected that. I think that's what RayT wants to say.
I don't know how the Greek homeopaths can be connected with the Hungarian sceptics or even with the Hungarian homeopaths.
I believe the only valid information about the Greeks and the MDC can only come from JREF. They should post some updates on that so we know IF something is about to happen, when and what exactly.

[snoop_doxie]

hello
I understand, Ray T means that at that time (in March) the experiment was on its way or at least the homeopaths were not withdrawn from the MDC, hence the 'sloppiness'. If what Ray T says is valid, JREF should have corrected that. I think that's what RayT wants to say.
I don't know how the Greek homeopaths can be connected with the Hungarian sceptics or even with the Hungarian homeopaths.
I believe the only valid information about the Greeks and the MDC can only come from JREF. They should post some updates on that so we know IF something is about to happen, when and what exactly.

okay, hellen
JREF should provide the valid information for the Greeks? Why? Are the Greeks taking the MDC or not? Only they know that!
It appears from the quotes attributed to Randi (in RayT.'s posts) that they are still looking for an institution to host a challenge.
Randi is not a psychic, how could he possibly know what the homeopaths are going to do next?

I asked RayT what the connection is between Greek homeopaths and Hungarian skeptics. Please, RayT. Connect the dots for me.
Thank you

[hellen]

hello snoop_doxie
I suppose that JREF knows whether the greeks are taking the challenge or not.
so they can let us know what is going on and on what stage is the whole process. Information is a bit unclear.

[Ray T.]

Snoop:

How is this sloppy on Mr. Randi's part?

From what I understand of Mr. Randi's correction: "Greece" has been mistakenly typed instead of "Hungary", and "abandoned" instead of "pending". I consider this sloppy.

You do realize that October 6 follows March 7 by almost 7 months?
yes

Then you insert something from SWIFT from March 14 and ask for another correction? What should be corrected?


Mr. Randi in [SWIFT, 14 March 2008] wrote:

Last week I mentioned at randi.org/joom/content/view/172/27/#i10 that a major test of homeopathy in Greece has met the expected fate, being abandoned by the homeopathy community.

Now, "last week" refers to [SWIFT, 7 March 2008] which included a false anouncement of abandonement from the Greek homeopathy community. Evidently, this has been corrected on October 6. Does it not follow that [SWIFT, 14 March 2008] should also be corrected?


How are the Greek homeopaths connected to the Hungarian Skeptics?
The connection is there by Mr. Randi. I sincerely have no clue why are you asking this to me. Please, read the relevant parts in SWIFT before responding, if you have not done so.

Mojo:

It seems a little insubstantial as a basis for demanding corrections.
My basis is what I have explained above, and it should be fairly clear and straightforward for anyone to understand.

[Ray T.]

Are the parentheses around the first paragraph supposed to be quotes?

Oh, I see, you didn't get that. I thought it was pretty obvious that the texts in bold are taken from SWIFT. I would consider that anyone that cared enough as to respond to the thread, would have taken the time to at least check the relevant SWIFT parts.

[Gravy]

Nevermind

[Gravy]

I'm told that this was a personal challenge that Randi was/is involved in, so no application and Jeff and Alison aren't involved.

[snoop_doxie]

Oh, I see, you didn't get that. I thought it was pretty obvious that the texts in bold are taken from SWIFT. I would consider that anyone that cared enough as to respond to the thread, would have taken the time to at least check the relevant SWIFT parts.

I guess I was too excited at the prospect of a Million Dollar Challenge to see the obvious. My mistake.

I read the entire SWIFT article from March 14, 2008 titled "Another Withdrawal".
Thank you for pointing me in that direction, I still care enough to respond, but I have more information now.

The Hungarian Skeptic Society offered to host the Greek homeopaths for tests. The Greeks decided not to do their tests in Hungary, apparently there was some disagreement about the ethical treatment of the patients, and the process of the trials.

Mr. Gabor Hrasko (Executive President of Hungarian Skeptic Society) seemed disappointed the Greeks decided against doing their tests in Hungary.

Mr. Gabor Hrasko said,
"I do not think this result was unexpected, but I am rather sad. You put a lot of energy into it, and during the last stages, I also tried my best and we are again back at the starting point."

As I said earlier in one of my posts: Anybody feeling any deja vu woo-woo?

[Ray T.]

Snoop:

Anybody feeling any deja vu woo-woo?
so cute

Truly snoop, your posts are non sequitur. Since you made the first step to actually read one of the SWIFT parts you were commenting on, I think it is sensible now of you to mellow down that MDC excitement, try to actually read the thread calmly and understand what the facts are and what is being discussed here. Once you get a pretty good hold of it, your input is very much welcome.

Explaining things normally comprehensible with very basic thinking in a forum advocating critical thinking should not be my labour.


Gravy:

I'm told that this was a personal challenge that Randi was/is involved in, so no application and Jeff and Alison aren't involved.

Now, that is interesting and curious. I wish we could get some more info on that.

[Gravy]

Now, that is interesting and curious. I wish we could get some more info on that.To state the obvious: randi@randi.org

[GzuzKryzt]

To state the obvious: randi@randi.org

Or you could tell us who told you.

[hellen]

indeed Gravy, where did you get this info from?

[Mojo]

Now, that is interesting and curious. I wish we could get some more info on that.

To state the obvious: randi@randi.org

indeed Gravy, where did you get this info from?

Or you could tell us who told you.


While we're on the subject, Ray, where did you get the information in the O/P?
Are you able to provide any of the further details already requested?

[Ray T.]

well... I 've been doin some heavy mind reading lately :blush:

Point is no matter what the source is, it will always be gossip till JREF official information. So please, pardon me the discretion.

[Ray T.]

I guess I will be able to provide further details when I get a reply from JREF.

[hellen]

still waiting for JREF position on the matter......

[chillzero]

still waiting for JREF position on the matter......

You might perhaps allow them more than one day to get through whatever else they need to deal with before they read Ray T's email, and then perhaps some additional time to look into the matter and ensure they provide the appropriate response to him (and then allow him time to come post it, of course)?

[Czarcasm]

well... I 've been doin some heavy mind reading lately :blush:

Point is no matter what the source is, it will always be gossip till JREF official information. So please, pardon me the discretion.
Why should JREF waste their time and ours trying to answer anonymous gossip when there are authentic challenges and protocols to sort through? Of course, if you could be bothered to actually name the source of this rumor(which you could of course do before JREF says another word)....if such a source actually existed.

[Czarcasm]

Sorry, duplicate post.

[hellen]

Why should JREF waste their time and ours trying to answer anonymous gossip when there are authentic challenges and protocols to sort through? Of course, if you could be bothered to actually name the source of this rumor(which you could of course do before JREF says another word)....if such a source actually existed.

I would also like to know Ray's sources but on the other hand I have to point out that JREF actually ought to spend their time clarifying this issue since they have been posting wrong information since March (which was corrected only 2days ago).
JREF should update us on what is going on regardless of what Ray says.

[chillzero]

and I'm sure they will ... when they get round to it.

This forum is not the JREF, and not (often) manned by any JREF staff. The best way to get any answers from the JREF is not to post here, but to email them.

[hellen]

I understood that Ray would mail them. I think he has already done so.

[chillzero]

yes, he says he has.

[Gravy]

To state the obvious: randi@randi.org

Or you could tell us who told you.JREF staff. As my post indicated, they are out of the loop and you'll need to contact Mr. Randi if you want to know more.

[Ray T.]

Czarcasm:

if such a source actually existed

On the 6th of October some guy Ray posts the OP of this thread in the JREF forum referencing a SWIFT article.
On the 7th of October a correction appears in a SWIFT article on the exact same subject matter, which was authored 7 months prior to this date.

This presents us with two possibilities:

1. The events are related
2. The events are unrelated
3. The events are neither related nor unrelated


Tactfully ignoring the scary third option which would throw our entire frame of thought into question (zen monks reading this, please stop laughing, this aint funny around here), we conclude that the events are either related or not.

If they are related, then it appears that Ray may, after all, not pulling all this out of his rear end, and is apparently a competent clairvoyant (and half-way through completing his application for the MDC)

If they are unrelated, that was quite a bit of a concidence.

[Czarcasm]

Czarcasm:



On the 6th of October some guy Ray posts the OP of this thread in the JREF forum referencing a SWIFT article.
On the 7th of October a correction appears in a SWIFT article on the exact same subject matter, which was authored 7 months prior to this date.

This presents us with two possibilities:

1. The events are related
2. The events are unrelated
3. The events are neither related nor unrelated


Tactfully ignoring the scary third option which would throw our entire frame of thought into question (zen monks reading this, please stop laughing, this aint funny around here), we conclude that the events are either related or not.

If they are related, then it appears that Ray may, after all, not pulling all this out of his rear end, and is apparently a competent clairvoyant (and half-way through completing his application for the MDC)

If they are unrelated, that was quite a bit of a concidence.All hail he who makes JREF jump at a moment's notice, the great and powerful Ray T.!!
Now that we've got that out of the way...what is the source for your story?

[Ray T.]

All hail he who makes JREF jump at a moment's notice, the great and powerful Ray T.!!
If I didn't know you better I would have thought you were being sarcastic

Of course I don't think the JREF would have cared much about what I would have to say whether valid or not. In fact I don't think that the JREF would care much about anything outside its own agenda, but that is a personal opinion and you wouldn't care about it, as I clearly would not care whether you want to know my source or not.

[Czarcasm]

If I didn't know you better I would have thought you were being sarcastic

Of course I don't think the JREF would have cared much about what I would have to say whether valid or not. In fact I don't think that the JREF would care much about anything outside its own agenda, but that is a personal opinion and you wouldn't care about it, as I clearly would not care whether you want to know my source or not.But you we so nice and cooperative when you started this thread-you even posted a smiley face! But now we know the only "agenda" here, to cast accusations without valid evidence in an attempt to smear JREF, is yours.
There are no outside "credible sources" for your story, are there?

[hellen]

[QUOTE=Czarcasm;4110289..........the only "agenda" here, to cast accusations without valid evidence in an attempt to smear JREF..........[/QUOTE]

I think there's a bit of an exaggeration here. Asking whether some information is valid or not is not an accusation. He put some information on the table (that he obviously heard from somewhere) and expects for a confirmation or disproof.
......as we all do....

[Czarcasm]

Maybe so, but some of us would also like to know whether this is an honest request for information, or just another atttempt at smearing JREF with made-up rumors. If the original source could be revealed while we wait for JREF to respond(and I do hope you understand why such a response cannot be instantanious), people's doubts as to the purpose of this inquiry could be instantly alieved.

[hellen]

I understand your point but I don't see why someone would like to create a thread with non-existing information just to harm the JREF. I suppose there must be other more sufficient ways to harm the reputation of JREF and I don't think that this is the purpose Ray opened this thread. At the end of the day he did send an e-mail to them right from the beginning of this forum.
I don't want to be pushy about revealing information, I'm just waiting time to shed some light.

[Cuddles]

(that he obviously heard from somewhere)

But that's the whole problem. It's not at all obvious that he heard it from somewhere. And the more he dodges the issue and refuses to say where he heard it, the more it seems likely that he didn't actually hear it at all. Maybe he did hear it. Maybe he just made it up himself. Maybe he's actually involved but is embarrassed to admit it for some reason. Unless he actually tells us something instead of making vague insinuations, there's really no reason for us to take anything he says seriously.

As for the JREF clarifying matters, I see no reason why they should know any more than the rest of us. Despite some apparent miscommunication, it's clear that the negotiations broke down and the JREF left the matter with the homeopaths. If said homeopaths have not acutally communicated with the JREF to tell them that they have now found a venue for a test, the JREF will not magically know about it. And looking a thow things have happened before, if the homeopaths do tell the JREF they are ready, the JREF will happily announce it on their website straight away.

So all we are left with is a claim that someone might be almost ready to start negotiations again, but no evidence that they have told the JREF they are ready, and in fact no evidene that they actually are ready at all. As the one making the claims, Ray T. is the one who needs to back them up, and assuming he's actually telling the truth, that should be very easy to do. Two pages of dodging and evasiveness is not getting my hopes up, especially when the relevant information should have been in the first post.

[petre]

Czarcasm:



On the 6th of October some guy Ray posts the OP of this thread in the JREF forum referencing a SWIFT article.
On the 7th of October a correction appears in a SWIFT article on the exact same subject matter, which was authored 7 months prior to this date.

This presents us with two possibilities:

1. The events are related
2. The events are unrelated
3. The events are neither related nor unrelated


Tactfully ignoring the scary third option which would throw our entire frame of thought into question (zen monks reading this, please stop laughing, this aint funny around here), we conclude that the events are either related or not.

If they are related, then it appears that Ray may, after all, not pulling all this out of his rear end, and is apparently a competent clairvoyant (and half-way through completing his application for the MDC)

If they are unrelated, that was quite a bit of a concidence.

It's possible your post is directly related to the correction.

It's also possible your source contacted the JREF recently with the same information, and thus they corrected it.

It's also possible your source is Randi himself, who had just discovered this information somehow, and naturally corrected himself at the same time he told you.

It's also possible that your source is Xenuraja from Rigel Six that contacts you through telepathy and is able to use advanced technology to change SWIFT articles to print corrections he feels are appropriate.

Or the events could be unrelated.

But skeptics tend not to speculate with any certainty when others present know more than they do (such as, the source of your information). So forgive us if we choose not to decide which is most likely until more is known.

[hellen]

Cuddles:
I don't see where's the problem with the JREF confirming what you say? they have received an e-mail already and they should reply. In addition, you keep forgetting the reason why they HAVE TO reply: simply because they did post information which was confusing. So the best is to post the facts and make Ray sh**t up.

Czarcasm:
I read randi's article few months ago and thought that this experiment won't take place because it was abandoned (as many others have been), now i learn that this is not the case according to the correction made.
I don't know what has happened, who is right or wrong, I don't care what is the source of Ray, or if Ray is contacting Xenuraja from Rigel Six, or if Ray is telepathetic himself...
What I think is most appropriate here is JREF to post a short answer such as:
1.yes the experiment is going to take place
2.no the experiment will not take place or,
3.no news from the homeopaths since march
and clear all this confusion.

is it SO difficult or time consuming to write a scentence? at the end of the day they have received this question through e-mail.
Why so silent?

[Czarcasm]

If you have a problem with JREF's response time, take it up with JREF via email, o.k.? My concern is with the spreading of anonymous malicious rumors on this message board, which has been a problem in the past, whether you want to believe it or not.

[hellen]

I understand your concern and I have no reason not to believe that there have been problems in the past. However I don't have the feeling that Ray has malicious intentions but only that he's quite obstinate in not revealing his sources. Even if he is having bad intentions, again it's only the JREF who can put him in his place, otherwise there are doubts created especially after JREF corrected the article (which means that indeed there was some wrong information).
My problem is JREF's silence. We're not in a random forum asking them to interfere. We're in the forum of JREF site and since they've taken the e-mail and probably had a look in the forum they should simply reply and wipe the rubbish away. and when this happens we will have enough evidence to sink Ray in big depth.

Does this sound reasonable only to me?

[chillzero]

How do you know what the JREF have done? They aren't filled with unlimited resources of staff. Just stop, and wait.

I'd suggest we all stop posting in this thread until an answer is received (in it's own good time) and then we will also know whether the thread should remain here in MDC, or be moved to Paranormal.

[hellen]

I don't know what they have done, I know what they haven't done, which is giving us some facts.

It's not a wine, waiting for it to ripe 'in its own good time', it's just a scentence which as far as i know it usually takes less than one day to be written.
however, i agree with chillzero that we can all wait.... for a couple of days....

[chillzero]

They aren't obliged to respond here at all.

[Czarcasm]

Will do.

[Professor Yaffle]

Is there some reason why the answer to this question is so urgent that you can't bear to wait a few days?

[catbasket]

I don't know what they have done, I know what they haven't done, which is giving us some facts.

Random fact: All your 14 posts on the JREF forums are in this thread.

[Ray T.]

Czarcasm:

I am by default nice and cooperative, unless people are showing disrespect. I am not attempting to smear JREF. If JREF is to be smeared that would only be by its own doings. I am merely trying to clarify the matter.


Everyone:

If JREF makes an official anouncement, I will simply accept it.
On the other hand, if I reveal my source, no matter what my source is, people can come up with all short of objections why that source can not be credible.

It is not who the source is, that makes my source credible but whether the information conveyed corresponds to the truth.

And what have we seen thus far?

I have claimed that the Greek homeopathy test has not been abandoned (5 October 2008), and that the SWIFT entry is false.
One day later (6 October 2008), [SWIFT, 7 March 2008] is corrected saying the test has not been abandoned.

Therefore the claim has been confirmed. What does that say about my source's credibility?

What remains to be confirmed is whether a hosting institution has been found or
if they are still looking for one as claimed in the now corrected [SWIFT, 7 March 2008]

[hellen]

As you may have seen already sometimes the climate here in the forum is not the most serene and that's when i personally ask for an answer.
I can wait for some days and i'm sure the rest can do the same.

[hellen]

What remains to be confirmed is whether a hosting institution has been found or
if they are still looking for one as claimed in the now corrected [SWIFT, 7 March 2008]

and if they have applied for the MDC.

[hellen]

Random fact: All your 14 posts on the JREF forums are in this thread.

hello snow,
what do you mean?
I'm new in the JREF forums. I have been doing some extensive research on the credibility of homeopathy and that's the thread that interests me the most at the moment.

[Gravy]

I understand your point but I don't see why someone would like to create a thread with non-existing information just to harm the JREF.I'm not accusing Ray of doing this, but you should know that it happens all the time.

Cuddles:
I don't see where's the problem with the JREF confirming what you say? they have received an e-mail already and they should reply.You keep saying "the JREF." As you know, this is Mr. Randi's issue. Did you send an email to him? If so, when?

[hellen]

I'm not accusing Ray of doing this, but you should know that it happens all the time.


You keep saying "the JREF." As you know, this is Mr. Randi's issue. Did you send an email to him? If so, when?

i'm new in the forum and i don't have such experience, it's sad to hear though that such things happen, we're supposed to be here for some constructive discussion.

I understand that JREF people 'represent' randi in a way. not sure though.
i didn't send an e-mail but Ray said he did.

I think that, as suggested, the best is to give some time to JREF (or randi) for this answer. I don't see this discussion being constructive till then.

[Cuddles]

Cuddles:
I don't see where's the problem with the JREF confirming what you say? they have received an e-mail already and they should reply.

The problem is that we have no reason to think the JREF know anything about this. They discussed a test with some people several months ago, but no test was agreed on and things were left there. Unless you have evidence that the homeopaths in question have been in contact with the JREF recently, why would you think the JREF know any more than anyone else here?

In addition, you keep forgetting the reason why they HAVE TO reply: simply because they did post information which was confusing. So the best is to post the facts and make Ray sh**t up.

They don't HAVE to do anything.

I am by default nice and cooperative, unless people are showing disrespect.

Respect is something you earn. All you have done is post an unsubstantiated rumour and dodge all questions you have been asked about it, including requests to to show that anyone other than you has even heard of the claimed rumour. You don't get any respect for that. As for being nice and cooperative, I fail to see how dodging every question you are asked is either nice or cooperative.

It is not who the source is, that makes my source credible but whether the information conveyed corresponds to the truth.

And so far we have no evidence that the source or information even exist anywhere other than inside your own head.

And what have we seen thus far?

Absolutely nothing. Hence all the questions.

I have claimed that the Greek homeopathy test has not been abandoned

No you haven't. You claimed that a venue has been found and a test is going to be conducted soon.

(5 October 2008), and that the SWIFT entry is false.
One day later (6 October 2008), [SWIFT, 7 March 2008] is corrected saying the test has not been abandoned.

It's easy enough to make mistakes. Considering how many times we've seen the "Sure we want a test, we just have some, er, stuff, yeah stuff, to sort out first. We'll get back to you." from applicants, I can completely understand the JREF assuming negotiations were over. Until we see evidence that a test is actually going to happen, I'd say the original claim that the test has been abandoned was accurate and that the correction is actually the part in error.

Therefore the claim has been confirmed. What does that say about my source's credibility?

It says nothing about your source's credibility since we still have no evidence that your source even exists.

What remains to be confirmed is whether a hosting institution has been found or
if they are still looking for one as claimed in the now corrected [SWIFT, 7 March 2008]

So you're saying what remains to be confirmed is whether your actual claim is true. Feel free to provide some evidence for it any time.

[catbasket]

what do you mean?

It's a short way of saying:

A common scenario here at JREF forums:
New member at JREF forum posts accusations etc against Randi and/or the JREF. Despite being given reasonable answers said poster bangs on and on about whatever it is. Repeat many many times (usually).

More rarely, another poster joins and not only supports the OP but posts only in the one particular thread.

Not saying this applies to you, but I guess you can see why someone might be a little suspicious of your motives - e.g when you say things like "Why the silence?" and "My problem is JREF's silence" when there's only been a few days since the email was sent.

I'm new in the JREF forums. I have been doing some extensive research on the credibility of homeopathy and that's the thread that interests me the most at the moment.

I'd be very interested to read a summary of the results of your research, if you are willing to share, though this sub-forum is not the correct place - Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology would be better. Also, SMM&T has many threads which discuss homeopathy and should be a very useful resource to aid your research.


As to the OP, from the info in this thread it seems to me that the only people who can confirm if there will be a MDC test are the applicants themselves ... and I suspect even they can't say for sure as they haven't agreed a test location yet.

[Mojo]

I'd be very interested to read a summary of the results of your research, if you are willing to share, though this sub-forum is not the correct place - General Skepticism would be better. Also, GS has many threads which discuss homeopathy and should be a very useful resource to aid your research.


Actually, I'd try Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=5).

[catbasket]

Cheers Mojo, I've edited the original to reflect reality ;)

[hellen]

i've been visiting quite a few sites lately trying to hear both sides. There's some interesting stuff out there. I'll check these out.

thanks!:)

[Gravy]

I understand that JREF people 'represent' randi in a way. not sure though.
i didn't send an e-mail but Ray said he did.As I said, the JREF staff is not involved in this. I may have missed something, but Ray said he sent one to challenge@randi.org, which goes to the staff. So it would likely take longer to get to Randi. They have a lot of challenge stuff to deal with. That's why I gave Randi's personal email.

Why not contact him, since you're eager to hear what's up?

[Ray T.]

Cuddles:

I'd say the original claim that the test has been abandoned was accurate and that the correction is actually the part in error
Are you really saying that the corrected SWIFT article is in error and has to be corrected again? Or am I misunderstanding here?

[Kuko 4000]

I have redirected my question to the JREF staff by email and I am waiting for a reply.


As Gravy said, you (and hellen) should contact the man himself if you want a faster reply:

randi@randi.org

I agree that if there is any misinformation regarding this case in the older SWIFT, it should be corrected as well. But sheesh guys, a little patience goes a long way. I hope you're not thinking that the JREF is avoiding a test on homeopathy?

I have been doing some extensive research on the credibility of homeopathy and that's the thread that interests me the most at the moment.


I'd be interested to hear the details of your reseach, I hope you will open a new thread in the SMM&T.

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=5

[Ray T.]

I am definitely not in a hurry. Quite relaxed really. Nowhere have I said that I am in a rush.

I think there has been sufficient argumentation and some forming of opinion. I am certainly not disclosing my sources, and have explained why. For the time, I am laid back and waiting for the thing to move forward if it is going anywhere that is.

[Mojo]

I'd be interested to hear the details of your reseach, I hope you will open a new thread in the SMM&T.

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=5


I've started a thread for this here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=126087

[Cuddles]

Are you really saying that the corrected SWIFT article is in error and has to be corrected again? Or am I misunderstanding here?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If you have any evidence to the contrary, feel free to provide it.

I am certainly not disclosing my sources, and have explained why.

No you haven't. Remember that your posts are saved here for everyone to seem, so it's rather silly to lie about them. As far as I can tell, there is still no evidence that your source actually exists.

[Ray T.]

Remember that your posts are saved here for everyone to seem, so it's rather silly to lie about them.
Oh, my, you reckon I am that silly. Anyways..

I have said that I am not giving away my source because credibility does not come from who my source is but whether the information conveyed is true. If I say X told me, then whoever X may be, someone can argue that X is not incredibly credible :) and I am not willing to go down that path. Sorry, but I will not be discussing this any more, as I hate to repeat myself.

I think I have said it myself quite clearly that it is rumour until JREF official position. Never have I said it is undeniable. So, I have presented the case, and if you think I am lying, feel free.

Personally, I feel confident that I will receive the reply from JREF explaining the situation, and then I will share it with you.

[Darat]

When is this test happening?

[GzuzKryzt]

Oh, my, you reckon I am that silly. Anyways..

I have said that I am not giving away my source because credibility does not come from who my source is but whether the information conveyed is true. If I say X told me, then whoever X may be, someone can argue that X is not incredibly credible :) and I am not willing to go down that path. Sorry, but I will not be discussing this any more, as I hate to repeat myself.

I think I have said it myself quite clearly that it is rumour until JREF official position. Never have I said it is undeniable. So, I have presented the case, and if you think I am lying, feel free.

Personally, I feel confident that I will receive the reply from JREF explaining the situation, and then I will share it with you.

In case you are new to posting in - sensibly moderated - fora and in all brevity: Disclosing your sources will prove essential to building a reputation.

As to how people will value your sources seems entirely up to them, right? You have to let people make that judgment for themselves. If you trust your source what could stop others from trusting it?

[Ray T.]

Darat:

When is this test happening?

According to Gravy, you should contact Mr. Randi.

[Lothian]

An update on the rumour of a Homeopathy test. There is nothing in it.

[Darat]

...snip...

According to what I consider to be credible sources, there is a forthcoming major homeopathy test to be conducted in Greece.

...snip...


When is this test happening?

[Gravy]

Darat:

According to Gravy, you should contact Mr. Randi.
No, Ray, I've said – repeatedly – that you should contact Mr. Randi, especially since you claim to have information of which, judging by his SWIFT update, he is unaware. The information is useless to me. I'm not the one with a million dollars at stake. Have you contacted him?

[Mojo]

When is this test happening?


And where?

[Lothian]

And where?
Greece.

[Mercutio]

Pass the hat, take up a collection, and I will gladly fly to Greece to straighten out this whole situation.

Hells yes, I am serious.

[Ray T.]

People: I have no further information on this.

I have tried to get an answer in here. As I see, I can neither get a confirmation or a denial of it in here, and I accept this, since I am informed that the JREF is not obliged to reply here.

I have send an email to the JREF and I would be happy to get a response, but that is all.

I got rather caught up in a heated conversation (which is the norm in fora of this kind), but I am not willing to pursue this any further as I do not have anything to gain personally, and it takes considerable energy that I am not willing to expend.

I spotted some inaccuracies that in my eyes reput JREF in a bad way, hopefully they will be cleared up.

The forum seems interesting and so do the people in it. Despite my skepticism towards the motives, and admitted personal distaste of the way JREF behaves (I have to be honest), I hope that I will stick by and you will eventually see that I am not just someone whose only purpose is to "propagate lies" and "smear JREF".

[Mojo]

I have send an email to the JREF and I would be happy to get a response, but that is all.


You have repeatedly been advised to email Mr. Randi rather than the JREF. You have even acknowledged this yourself here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4113015#post4113015).

Have you sent an email to Mr. Randi?

[GzuzKryzt]

People: I have no further information on this.
...

You do, as you will see below.


...
I hope that I will stick by and you will eventually see that I am not just someone whose only purpose is to "propagate lies" and "smear JREF".

One of the easiest ways to earn credibility and enable a constructive discussion around here would be to share your source/s.

Most people around here like to make up their own minds about the reality that surrounds us. The more data available, the clearer the picture.

[catbasket]

... I hope that I will stick by and you will eventually see that I am not just someone whose only purpose is to "propagate lies" and "smear JREF".

I don't believe you. In the first part of that sentence you said -

Despite my skepticism towards the motives, and admitted personal distaste of the way JREF behaves (I have to be honest), ...

You present no evidence, you "smear JREF".

[Darat]

People: I have no further information on this.

...snip...

Given your opening post I don't understand this - the information that there was a "major homeopathy test" coming up in Greece wasn't spontaneously created in your head, it had to come from somewhere!

[Gravy]

I have send an email to the JREF and I would be happy to get a response, but that is all.Who's taking my bet that Ray didn't send an email to James Randi (who is in NYC now, btw)?

I'm sorry that you started this thread on false pretenses, Ray, but I hope that you eventually find what you're looking for.

[Moochie]

It's possible your post is directly related to the correction.

It's also possible your source contacted the JREF recently with the same information, and thus they corrected it.

It's also possible your source is Randi himself, who had just discovered this information somehow, and naturally corrected himself at the same time he told you.

It's also possible that your source is Xenuraja from Rigel Six that contacts you through telepathy and is able to use advanced technology to change SWIFT articles to print corrections he feels are appropriate.

Or the events could be unrelated.

But skeptics tend not to speculate with any certainty when others present know more than they do (such as, the source of your information). So forgive us if we choose not to decide which is most likely until more is known.

Did anyone at JREF actually make that "correction" to the March article? It looks like a poor, hastily done job, and in the wrong font size, too. Has the JREF been hacked?


M.

[RemieV]

I do not know anything about this claim, and have never received an application from Vithoulkas.

That does not mean the individual isn't a Million Dollar Challenge applicant. It's possible that Randi challenged this individual personally, as he did with Fremer and the Cable Challenge.

I have sent e-mails requesting more information and will post when said information becomes available.

[GzuzKryzt]

Thank you for the update, Remie.

[snoop_doxie]

Did anyone at JREF actually make that "correction" to the March article? It looks like a poor, hastily done job, and in the wrong font size, too. Has the JREF been hacked?


M.

Yeah, Moochie, it looked a little suspicious to me. I put that down to the put-down answers he gave to my questions. He told me to go read the referenced article, I did that and then he said he had no idea what the connection was between Hungary and Greece. It is all spelled out in the article. :o

I am trying to be less emotional and more skeptical. Maybe I have already burned out with the other foolishness. :o

[Ray T.]

Nice, we 've got an answer from JREF, and it seems that more info is about to come.
Thank you very much for taking the time RemieV.

Gravy, are you up for a bet on whether I will send an email to Mr. Randi?

Edit: I am not saying that I will definitely send one. After all Remie said is going to provide further information. I might send one if and when I feel like and not because someone on a message board requests me to do so. Just wondering though if Gravy is still up for the bet.

[Ray T.]

Did anyone at JREF actually make that "correction" to the March article? It looks like a poor, hastily done job, and in the wrong font size, too. Has the JREF been hacked?

Yep, I agree that it looks like a poor, hastily done job, and in the wrong font size.

[Mojo]

Gravy, are you up for a bet on whether I will send an email to Mr. Randi?

Edit: I am not saying that I will definitely send one. After all Remie said is going to provide further information. I might send one if and when I feel like and not because someone on a message board requests me to do so. Just wondering though if Gravy is still up for the bet.


That wasn't the bet Gravy was offering: Who's taking my bet that Ray didn't send an email to James Randi?

[remirol]

Nice, we 've got an answer from JREF, and it seems that more info is about to come.
Thank you very much for taking the time RemieV.

Gravy, are you up for a bet on whether I will send an email to Mr. Randi?

Edit: I am not saying that I will definitely send one. After all Remie said is going to provide further information. I might send one if and when I feel like and not because someone on a message board requests me to do so. Just wondering though if Gravy is still up for the bet.

I see. So you are admitting that this message:


I have send an email to the JREF and I would be happy to get a response, but that is all.

was an outright lie, and you have not sent an email to the JREF -- which you should have done in the first place?

[Thabiguy]

Just to clear up, remirol: sending an email to JREF and sending an email to Randi are two different things. Ray said he had done the former, not the latter.

[Ray T.]

remirol: wtf are you talking about?

[Ray T.]

Ray said he had done the former, not the latter.
Well, in fact, I have recently done the latter too

[Czarcasm]

That's nice.
To get back on topic:
"According to what I consider to be credible sources, there is a forthcoming major homeopathy test to be conducted in Greece."-unless it is supposed to be a secret test, what is the problem you have with revealing the source of your information?

[Ray T.]

what is the problem you have with revealing the source of your information?
obeying none but my free will. information on the issue is coming and that is what's important. sorry, for not satisfying your curiosity

[catbasket]

To get back on topic:
"According to what I consider to be credible sources, there is a forthcoming major homeopathy test to be conducted in Greece."-unless it is supposed to be a secret test, what is the problem you have with revealing the source of your information?

Let's see if I've got this right -

JREF staff didn't know about it.
Randi didn't know about it. Though he did mention Greece in his original Swift of March 7th this was an error and should have stated Hungary.
Gábor Hraskó, Executive President of the Hungarian Skeptic Society, didn't know about it - he was attempting to arrange a test in Hungary but this fell through as "It seems that we are halted in the preparations for bringing the homeopathy test to Hungary. The board of the Hungarian Homeopathic Medical Association made a decision last week not to support the test". Swift March 14th.

So who would know that the homeopaths were attempting to arrange a test location in Greece? One obvious answer is of course the homeopaths themselves.

From this I conclude that the "credible sources" could be -

1. The homeopaths, or
7. An erroneous Swift article by James Randi.

Any other possibilities? I've left options 2 through 6 available for any suggestions.

[Darat]

obeying none but my free will. information on the issue is coming and that is what's important. sorry, for not satisfying your curiosity


Have you forgotten your thread's title and your opening post?

[GzuzKryzt]

obeying none but my free will. information on the issue is coming and that is what's important. sorry, for not satisfying your curiosity

Besides dodging Czarcasm's question, you probably fail to notice that this is a discussion forum. To enable discussion, you have to contribute a little more than you did until now.
Otherwise it's just you trolling.

If there would be something substantial on the line, I could understand why you would want to protect your source(s). Since that does not seem to be the case, you likely are playing a coy game. Which is fine, but let us call a spade a spade, right?

[Jeff Wagg]

A message from James Randi:

To All Concerned:

The brouhaha that began as a comprehensive homeopathy test In Greece, has been consuming far too much of my time and attention, and of my colleagues, as well. Forget all previous correspondence exchanged on the subject. What appears HERE is the current status.

We’re starting anew. Bear in mind that WE are offering the million-dollar prize, and WE will control the parameters, in line with the rules of the challenge – which are available to everyone. There will be no more exceptions, which I had – unwisely – granted to certain persons in order to be more accommodating; they have always chosen to be difficult, capricious, and arrogant as a result of this courtesy. No more.

First, we require that George Vithoulkas submit a regular, properly-filled-out application, and submit it – just as we require EVERYONE to do. After that has been received, we’ll go ahead – as with any regular applicant – with the arrangements, including the requirement for the preliminary stage. Since I’m not personally handling the challenge applications, I’m not aware of how many places George Vithoulkas has tried for a venue, but I know that his own country turned him down, as well as some others. Second, we’ll require that Mr. Vithoulkas obtain a venue and all the necessary facilities for conducting a double-blind, correct, acceptable protocol, before we will go ahead – following the receipt of the application.

The protocol used by the Royal Society/BBC tests in the UK – based on Jacques Benveniste’s design, and carefully supervised by the homeopathic community there – would be acceptable for this set of tests.

Don’t contact me personally on this matter. I’ll not entertain any arguments or pleas. It will be handled by Alison Smith, working with others on our staff.

These 300 words constitute my entire commentary on the matter.

James Randi.

[Mojo]

A message from James Randi:...

The protocol used by the Royal Society/BBC tests in the UK – based on Jacques Benveniste’s design, and carefully supervised by the homeopathic community there – would be acceptable for this set of tests.


If this (http://www.vithoulkas.com/content/view/178/9/lang,en/) is anything to go by, I doubt that it would be acceptable to Vithoulkas: During the years, I repeatedly warned the homeopathic community against the misleading results of Benveniste's experiments and their negative consequences on the credibility of homeopathy itself. Dedicating time, work, and human resources to the "memory of water" is like perpetuating the original mistake made by Benveniste.
His idea of "memory of water" was nothing else but a firecracker that has been burnt out long ago. The water after the homeopathic process of dilutions and succussion attains some biological properties so far unknown in their nature.

...

The fact is that at this moment we do not have conclusive evidence of what is the nature of the homeopathic remedy. Homeopathy therefore must be accepted or rejected on its therapeutic effects alone.

[petre]

Hello Everyone :)

According to what I consider to be credible sources, there is a forthcoming major homeopathy test to be conducted in Greece.

To my knowledge Mr. Vithoulkas has applied for the Million Dollar Challenge and a hosting institution for the test has been found.

Moreover, I am informed that never has this test been abandoned by the Greek homeopathy community as it is claimed by Mr. Randi (SWIFT March 14, 2008)

Is there an an official JREF position on the matter?

There you are, an official JREF representative providing an official JREF position on the matter. From the posting one would conclude:

1. The JREF has no comment on any forthcoming major homeopathy test to be conducted in Greece. Though if there is one, it would seem JREF is not involved.

2. Mr. Vithoulkas has not sent any for the Million Dollar Challenge that has been accepted by JREF. JREF is not aware of any hosting institution for the test being found.

3. If the Greek homeopathy community does not submit a formal application for the challenge, it will be considered abandonded by the JREF until such time that they do so.

Your source's information would appear now to be contradicted by the official JREF position (though it may have been more accurate of the state of things at the time of your post). Do you have any additional information to add, or additional points that require clarification?

[GzuzKryzt]

A message from James Randi:

Thank you for the update, Jeff Wagg.

[Gravy]

Gravy, are you up for a bet on whether I will send an email to Mr. Randi?

Edit: I am not saying that I will definitely send one. After all Remie said is going to provide further information. I might send one if and when I feel like and not because someone on a message board requests me to do so. Just wondering though if Gravy is still up for the bet.:dl:
I haven't used the laughing dog in about 18 months. Thanks, Ray: priceless.

[Moochie]

Go on, rub it in (the homeopathic remedy, I mean). :)


M.

[Ray T.]

Gravy:

I haven't used the laughing dog in about 18 months. Thanks, Ray: priceless.

18 months? I am honored. Though, an articularion of your point would highly aid us in sharing the dog's exuberance

[Ray T.]

Moochie:

Go on, rub it in (the homeopathic remedy, I mean)
unmatchable wit. second only to the unsurpassable cunning in your hacker's theory of the SWIFT correction.

i.e. an admired individual, an expert in breaking security restrictions and sneaking unnoticed with elegant tricks that require patience and precision, would be a complete dork so as to use an inappropriate font size for everyone to see. truly a gem in its conception

[Ray T.]

For the record, below is my email, and James Randi's response. These have been exchanged earlier the day of Jeff Wagg's anouncement.


Ray:

Dear Mr. Randi,

I was curious on an issue regarding the Million Dollar Challenge and in specific whether the greek homeopath Mr. Vithoulkas has applied for the challenge. I have been informed by the JREF staff that he is not an applicant, but it is possible that you have challenged him personally. Can you please confirm or deny this information?

If it is true, what is the current state of the whole process? Has a hosting institution for the test been found, or are there any other blocking issues?

I would truly appreciate it if you could take the time to respond supplying further information on the issue.


Thank you



James Randi:

We have been corresponding with Vithoulkas, who has tried to get several venues for a test, but failed. I don't know the present status, but he is always being refused... We don't challenge anyone; they either respond by applying, or they are not in the line... Vithoulkas is very difficult, he is always coming up with demands, and I feel it will not take place because he can't get his ducks in a row... But we're ALWAYS willing ...

James Randi.

[Ray T.]

petre:

Your source's information would appear now to be contradicted by the official JREF position (though it may have been more accurate of the state of things at the time of your post). Do you have any additional information to add, or additional points that require clarification?

According to the latest JREF position, the information I have provided appear inaccurate in some respects.

James Randi does not seem to imply that the test has been actually abandoned. He requires that George Vithoulkas follows the regular process of filling in an application, but he states that there has been ongoing correspondence between them.

Though Mr. Randi clearly rejects the claim that a hosting institution has been found.

[GzuzKryzt]

petre:



According to the latest JREF position, the information I have provided appear inaccurate in some respects.

James Randi does not seem to imply that the test has been actually abandoned. He requires that George Vithoulkas follows the regular process of filling in an application, but he states that there has been ongoing correspondence between them.

Though Mr. Randi clearly rejects the claim that a hosting institution has been found.

Do you find the JREF's and Randi's responses satisfying?

[Ray T.]

They've addressed my questions so far

[Moochie]

Moochie:


unmatchable wit. second only to the unsurpassable cunning in your hacker's theory of the SWIFT correction.

i.e. an admired individual, an expert in breaking security restrictions and sneaking unnoticed with elegant tricks that require patience and precision, would be a complete dork so as to use an inappropriate font size for everyone to see. truly a gem in its conception

Why thank you, Ray. It's heartening to know someone is reading my posts.


M.

[Gravy]

Gravy:
18 months? I am honored. Though, an articularion of your point would highly aid us in sharing the dog's exuberanceI assume you mean articulation. Pay attention, Ray. Mojo already pointed out (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4123352&postcount=104) the absurd bravado of accepting a bet that you had already lost. I advise staying away from Vegas.

[Ray T.]

For the people possessing the cognitive faculty of understanding language also in a not literal way, your bet was merely a device of enforcing your suggestion that I started the thread on "false pretenses". Hence my response along your very own terms. Of course there is no actual bet.

(Have I sent an emai? Yes. Is there any evidence I started the thread on false pretenses? No.)

Your interpretation of my reaction as a "bravado" is more indicative of your own perception of the discussion, hence more reflective of your personality than anything else.

[chillzero]

Can we please keep threads in this section strictly on topic to the MDC, and put an end now to the more personalised stuff.

[Blue Wode]

George Vithoulkas has just published his version of this saga, complete with a list of compensatory demands “for the moral damage caused to Greek homeopaths and to the homeopathic community in general”:
http://www.hpathy.com/papersnew/vithoulkas-james-randi.asp

[GzuzKryzt]

Thanks for the link, Blue Wode.

If the H-Paths think Randi is not trustworthy, why do they not simply present the evidence from their test(s) in a peer-reviewed journal? Bragging rights galore, right?



Oh yeah: H-Paths subjecting Randi to an ultimatum? ************* starting in 3-2-...

[illumino]

If the H-Paths think Randi is not trustworthy, why do they not simply present the evidence from their test(s) in a peer-reviewed journal? Bragging rights galore, right?




What evidence???

[Gr8wight]

If the H-Paths think Randi is not trustworthy, why do they not simply present the evidence from their test(s) in a peer-reviewed journal? Bragging rights galore, right?

What evidence???

Oh...yeah...that's why.

[subterranean1]

The statement mentioned above by Blue Wode has appeared in various places since [at least] December, so the ultimatum in itIf these conditions are not fulfilled within a month, we will consider that Mr. Randi has withdrawn from the experiment. In any case, we will go ahead and complete the experiment without Mr. Randi,...is presumably well-expired by now.

It does seem odd, if he's planning on going ahead with the test anyway, why Vithoulkas bothered to make all his claims and demands beforehand, since he'll presumably end up rich and famous if the test succeeds, and people trust the outcome, and a positive outcome can be replicated by the inevitable follow-ups.

Then Vithoulkas could complain about Randi all he wants, with a likelihood of being listened to by more than just homeopathy believers.

Even if someone would tend to believe Vithoulkas, it still seems worth their while suspending judgement and waiting for him to produce his real, actual proof, assuming they think he can provide such proof.

If the test goes ahead and doesn't succeed, or it succeeds but follow-ups don't, then however much truth there may be in Vithoulkas' side of the story, only a believer is likely to pay him much attention.

Either way, if he's going ahead independently with a medical trial with adequate experimental design, he evidently doesn't need Randi or the MDC, and presumably never needed them.

No doubt we'll hear more when his results are in.

[Olowkow]

Homeopathy is just bunk. Why bother even responding to this stuff?

[shawmutt]

Article from naturalnews.com yesterday:

http://www.naturalnews.com/025627.html

(NaturalNews) A long tussle concerning the validity of Homeopathy between the world`s most famous homeopath and probably the world`s most well known `quackbuster` appears to have come to head in December 2008 after 5 years of to-ing and fro-ing. On the one side is Homeopath George Vithoulkas, whose International Academy for Classical Homeopathy is based on the island of Alonissos in Greece. On the other is American magician and skeptic, James Randi who heads what he calls The James Randi Educational Foundation, based in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Vithoulkas and Randi are equally passionate in their diametrically opposed views and an easy meeting of minds was never very likely.

Let's get some comments on that page!

[Limbo]

Article from naturalnews.com yesterday:

http://www.naturalnews.com/025627.html



Let's get some comments on that page!


From the above link:

"The experiment may still go ahead with the participation of skeptics Alec Gindis and Hrasko Gabor who were originally representing Randi. They apparently wish to see through to the end what has been a long drawn out process."

Uh-oh, if that's true and Alec and Hrasko go ahead with the experiment, and if the results are significant in favor of homeopathy, then Randi may not be too happy with those two. :eek:

[Kuko 4000]

Homeopathy is just bunk. Why bother even responding to this stuff?


Because people looking for good information about homeopathy might stop by and have a look.

[Limbo]

Article from naturalnews.com yesterday:

http://www.naturalnews.com/025627.html



Let's get some comments on that page!


From this link:

"All seemed to be going well when in August 2006, Vithoulkas received a signed agreement from Randi in which he stated that he was satisfied with the suggested protocol. He also waived the need for a preliminary test - the part of the process that had foiled every applicant up to that point."

I would very much like to see a copy of that signed agreement.

"However Randi then delayed the start of the experiment owing to health problems and lack of sufficient funding."

I would like to see proof of that. If the evidence suggests that Randi did delay the start of the experiment at a crucial time (does it?), then I would like to see evidence that Randi was having health problems at that particular time and evidence that he needed 6 months for rehab. Does anyone know of any such evidence?

If he was having health problems at a crucial time, couldn't he have easily appointed a personal representative? I mean, I thought his presence wasn't required.

[Pixel42]

He also waived the need for a preliminary test - the part of the process that had foiled every applicant up to that point."
Absurd statement. It's the first properly designed and controlled test that always foils applicants - by showing that they can't do what they thought they could do - whether that test is the first of two JREF tests or the only JREF test. Or indeed any other carefully designed and executed test.

However Randi then delayed the start of the experiment owing to health problems
When exactly did Randi have his heart surgery? It might have been around then. Did other testing continue during it? I'm not sure, but I can see no reason why it wouldn't.

and lack of sufficient funding
This implies that JREF is the source of the funding and Randi delayed due to his lack of it. In fact all the costs of the experiment are always borne by the applicant. If the applicant had insufficient funding it would have been he that delayed the start of the experiment, not Randi.

[subterranean1]

On the funding side, is it possible that it was a case of finding funding for the observers?

Being realistic, if the experiment does go ahead, even if it comes up with significant results, many people will wonder just how well-controlled it was, and would wait for larger-scale follow-ups before conceding that there might be something to homeopathy beyond placebo.

[Gravy]

On the funding side, is it possible that it was a case of finding funding for the observers?If so, it wasn't the JREF's problem. See the post above yours.


Being realistic, if the experiment does go ahead, even if it comes up with significant results, many people will wonder just how well-controlled it was, and would wait for larger-scale follow-ups before conceding that there might be something to homeopathy beyond placebo.That's as it should be. No one should accept a new medical treatment on the basis of one small trial. However, as far as the MDC goes, if a claimant follows the protocol and passes the final test, it doesn't matter what the rest of the world thinks: they're entitled to the $1 million.

[subterranean1]

Quite.

I'm just envisioning a scenario where some vague positive results do happen (for one reason or another, whether or not those results are statistically significant) and then numerous homeopathy supporters choose to consider that as some final word on all homeopathic products, without seeing if those results could even be duplicated.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I've only just spotted this thread and this story having been directed to it from here (http://gimpyblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/hmc21-hammering-the-nails-into-homeopathy/#comment-6779).

Can someone point me to where the actual protocol of this supposed test is explicitly described?

[Mojo]

According to www.vithoulkas.com (http://www.vithoulkas.com/content/view/1973/lang,en/): A protocol was drawn up with the title: "Do homeopathic remedies have a recognizable biological effect on the human organism?"


I haven't been able to find any document of this title on the internet.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

In other words, yet more windy rhetoric and no visible substance. Then cry foul and run away.

[Unifex]

I've noticed that there is still no entry for this in the Challenge Applications forum.

How do we go about getting things listed there? There must be a lot of correspondence on it and having this out in the open would go a long way towards answering many questions.

During the recent 10:23 campaign the New Zealand Council of Homeopaths mentioned that there was "a Greek Homeopath", I can only assume Vithoulkas is the one that they were referring to, applying for the MDC. Such is the state of play here. :/

It's been difficult to piece together the whole story with the JREF side of things being spread out all over the place and mostly on the forums.

[rjh01]

Maybe there was no application was ever lodged. I found this http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/364-a-correction.html which suggest that no application had been received as of December 2008.

Once your official application is in place, we can proceed with the arrangements necessary to conduct the experiment.

Welcome to the forum Unifex.

[Unifex]

Welcome to the forum Unifex.

Cheers :)

Reading over that post now.

[Ririon]

It's been difficult to piece together the whole story with the JREF side of things being spread out all over the place and mostly on the forums.
Yes. The whole challenge seems to be in reorganization mode. See this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=163828).