Soulmates and the Signs of Their Presence

[LJ57]

I must confess off the bat that I was once a believer in alot of superstitious nonsense. Most of the beliefs I once embraced so irrationally have been addressed by skeptics and scientists. There is one superstition, however, that I once firmly embraced which, as far as I can tell, has not been tackled. Soulmates!! I have met many people who believe in these in a strict, new age sense. By strict, I mean they firmly believe that we have soulmates and that we experience "signs, synchronicities, and meaningful coincidences" when we encounter them.

I'm curious as to why this topic has not been dealt with by skeptics. I have searched and searched but to no avail. It would be nice to see a proper debunking of ideas like this.

[bruto]

"signs, synchronicities, and meaningful coincidences"

Do erections count?

[tyr_13]

I've had such reactions with three different women. Which one is my soul mate?

It just sounds like post-hoc reasoning to me.

[learner]

Ive got a sole mate, I dont get out much. :)

[sg1985]

I like the idea of soul mates. But I think it's just an idea.

But you bring up a good point, I've never hear anyone talk about soul mates in a critical sense. They addressed it once on Sex and the City, but I don't think that counts.

Hmmmmm...

[SphereGuy]

It's all just chemical reactions in the brain. The chemicals are renewed with continued exposure to the individual you think you are in love with. Given enough time the chemicals will filter out and you'll be back to normal, if you can avoid contact with that individual long enough.





At least, that's what I keep telling myself.

[ExMinister]

If you mean the New Age concept where supposedly everyone has one twin soul who is their spiritual "other half," the best debunking is probably just time. I've seen a lot of people convinced by some psychic means that they'd found their twin soul end up divorced.

Then again, sometimes it's just used in the romantic sense to describe two people who seem made for each other, no woo involved, in which case no debunking seems necessary. It's kind of sweet. :)

[Minarvia]

Yes, John Lennon and Yoko Ono claimed to be one soul in two bodies and were each other's "true love." I think most of us know how THAT all worked out just so perfectly for them all the time...:rolleyes:

I like them both but, come on!!! Soul mates???

[Senex]

Having a "soulmate" begs the question that you have a soul. You have to answer that one affirmitively first before moving on to mating it.

I've met many people I'm certain would have been capable of having wonderful forever relationships with thousands of potential partners and have also met many people who I doubt could have had been happy with anyone on earth for a long term relationship.

What if you're thirty and haven't met your soulmate yet and she gets hit by a bus? Does another soulmate get born-- and if so how do you deal with the age difference?

[sg1985]

Having a "soulmate" begs the question that you have a soul. You have to answer that one affirmitively first before moving on to mating it.

I've met many people I'm certain would have been capable of having wonderful forever relationships with thousands of potential partners and have also met many people who I doubt could have had been happy with anyone on earth for a long term relationship.

What if you're thirty and haven't met your soulmate yet and she gets hit by a bus? Does another soulmate get born-- and if so how do you deal with the age difference?

I've wondered that too. Also, isn't it a little convenient that out of 6 billion people on Earth you just happen to find the right one? Also, what if your soul mate is in another country with different languages and customs? And yeah, what if your soul mate dies? Are you destined to roam the earth forever lonely?

[gnome]

That's it exactly, I think it's an extension of people's fear of loss. The idea of a "soulmate" being a once-in-a-lifetime matchup just helps to elevate the urgency of staying with the person you're obsessed with. It also adds an element of emotional blackmail if one person starts to think maybe this isn't such a perfect match after all.

If a "soulmate" is just someone who complements you well, then it's a sweet idea.

[Ron_Tomkins]

I must confess off the bat that I was once a believer in alot of superstitious nonsense. Most of the beliefs I once embraced so irrationally have been addressed by skeptics and scientists. There is one superstition, however, that I once firmly embraced which, as far as I can tell, has not been tackled. Soulmates!! I have met many people who believe in these in a strict, new age sense. By strict, I mean they firmly believe that we have soulmates and that we experience "signs, synchronicities, and meaningful coincidences" when we encounter them.

I'm curious as to why this topic has not been dealt with by skeptics. I have searched and searched but to no avail. It would be nice to see a proper debunking of ideas like this.

So does this mean you believe in a soul in the first place?

[James Fox]

The notion of soul mates is clearly all part of the abstinence anti-sex, no-fun, no drinking, no dancing conspiracy.

[LJ57]

So does this mean you believe in a soul in the first place?

I no longer believe in a soul. It would be easy to just say there is no soul thus there can't be soulmates. I just think that the whole idea of soulmates should be addressed more completely than just telling people there's no soul so they should dismiss the idea of soulmates because of that.

[bruto]

I no longer believe in a soul. It would be easy to just say there is no soul thus there can't be soulmates. I just think that the whole idea of soulmates should be addressed more completely than just telling people there's no soul so they should dismiss the idea of soulmates because of that.
I do think it's usually better to separate arguments, and the idea of soulmates ought to fail on its own even if we stipulate a soul. But I think it's probably a lost cause anyway. The kind of people who believe in soulmates (in a way beyond the metaphorical sense of unusually lucky matching) are probably the same who see no inconsistency in the distribution of angels and answered prayers, and see the hand of a loving God when the news from Darfur and Iraq is followed by a story about a puppy miraculously saved from a tornado.

[Ron_Tomkins]

I no longer believe in a soul. It would be easy to just say there is no soul thus there can't be soulmates. I just think that the whole idea of soulmates should be addressed more completely than just telling people there's no soul so they should dismiss the idea of soulmates because of that.

But if there is no soul, what exactly is your definition of a soulmate then? Sorry if I seem picky with terminology, but I need to know exactly what foundations we're resting upon.

[LJ57]

But if there is no soul, what exactly is your definition of a soulmate then? Sorry if I seem picky with terminology, but I need to know exactly what foundations we're resting upon.

I agree that terminology needs to be clarified. By soulmates I am referring to the idea that two people were destined to meet...in metaphysical terms. I hear alot of people use the term 'soulmate' simply to refer to the fact that they are logically compatible with their mate. The new age community has a lot of unimaginably whacky views on soulmates. Some believe that soulmates can be broken down into subcategories like karmic soulmates, soulmate cusps, and the ultimate soulmate : the twin flame!

Sadly, I once believed in the general idea of soulmates although even then I was skeptical of all the subcategories.

The reason I am so preoccupied with a skeptical treatment of this is the fact that it is a potentially damaging idea...more so than belief in many other superstitions IMO. I think the soulmate idea can often mask a psychological problem like unhealthy attachments to a solitary person ("the one") and in extreme cases some degree of obsession. I have occasionally trolled some of the soulmate forums to see what people were thinking. I saw alot of people posting about how devestated they were that their "soulmates" didn't reciprocate the same intense feelings. This BS can really wreck lives and new age whackjobs are encouraging this all the time.

[arthwollipot]

...two people were destined to meet...So, determinism then?

[Ron_Tomkins]

The reason I am so preoccupied with a skeptical treatment of this is the fact that it is a potentially damaging idea

But you just gave the reasons why lack of skepticism is what would be a potentially damaging idea:


"...I think the soulmate idea can often mask a psychological problem like unhealthy attachments to a solitary person ("the one") and in extreme cases some degree of obsession. I have occasionally trolled some of the soulmate forums to see what people were thinking. I saw alot of people posting about how devestated they were that their "soulmates" didn't reciprocate the same intense feelings. This BS can really wreck lives and new age whackjobs are encouraging this all the time."



So how exactly is a skeptic view of the concept of "soulmate" potentially damaging?

[bruto]

But you just gave the reasons why lack of skepticism is what would be a potentially damaging idea:






So how exactly is a skeptic view of the concept of "soulmate" potentially damaging?Ron, one of us is misreading LJ57's posts. I am under the impression that he seeks a skeptical view of the concept, and wishes to find a way to promote it, because the new-age view is what is damaging.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Oh... then nevermind then. My bad.

[LJ57]

Yes, I am promoting a skeptical treatment of the metaphysical concept of 'soulmates'. I have never been able to find this despite searching thoroughly. I have found it to be a relatively widespread belief. I even know a Christian who believes in basically the same thing as new-agers except she believes the "destiny" of it is ordained by the Judeo-Christian god. I have also found some writings on the internet that are similar to hers and promoted by Christians.

[Kittyclaws]

Considering definitions: soul, in the metaphysical/woo/new age sense is that part of you that is both your consciousness and the immortal spirit which connects you to the universe, which observes itself through your eyes, yada, yada, yada. (Yeah, I was a pagan, too.) I heard a lot of variations from the grades of soulmates outlined above to the idea that you may have many (?) soulmates throughout your life as you change and grow, blah, blah, blah. All this supposes an outside force that creates or designates the soulmate pairs.

Bull. It's another form of magical thinking that allows you to eliminate or obsess about potential partners. It's like that bizarre argument about loving someone but not being in love with them. WTF? Either you genuinely care about someone and realize that their happiness has become essential to your own, or you're just in it for the sex/money/prestige/name your own reason that has nothing to do with love.

Can you see that I'm more, um, skeptical about it now?





And I sound just a little...bitter, too.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Yes, I am promoting a skeptical treatment of the metaphysical concept of 'soulmates'. I have never been able to find this despite searching thoroughly.

Well, "The Selfish Gene" by Dawkins might be a good start.

[bruto]

Yes, I am promoting a skeptical treatment of the metaphysical concept of 'soulmates'. I have never been able to find this despite searching thoroughly. I have found it to be a relatively widespread belief. I even know a Christian who believes in basically the same thing as new-agers except she believes the "destiny" of it is ordained by the Judeo-Christian god. I have also found some writings on the internet that are similar to hers and promoted by Christians.So can your Christian friend explain why, if it's ordained by God, the finding of soulmates is so haphazard, and the distribution so apparently random and unfair? Can she explain what divine purpose is served by this, and shy the plan appears to have been so crudely executed?

[Cuddles]

It's quite simple really. There are over 6 billion people in the world. Even the most friendly, active, outgoing person will never be able to meet more than a few thousand of them. Therefore even if soulmates actually exist, only a tiny fraction of people will ever even meet theirs, let alone actually get to know them and have a chance to find out that they're soulmates. Therefore even if soulmates exist, the new age claims about them can't possibly be true.

This is rather like the problem people who claim to research psychic abilities scientifically have. Even if you accept that things like PEAR actually have valid results, there's no relation between those results and what believers claim. If you prove that people are capable of using their minds to make tiny changes at levels very slightly above chance, that says nothing whatsoever about the grand claims of reading minds and moving large objects that people actually believe in.

This seems to be a problem with a lot of woo - even if they can find evidence to suggest that something is going on, that something almost never turns out to be what they were looking for in the first place.

[applecorped]

I believe in soul mates because it would be bad Karma not to. ;)

[quarky]

I've found four of mine, so far.

(Only ten more to go!)

[Apathia]

I'm someone's soulmate?
Oh that sadl, cheated soul!

[ExMinister]

The trouble is how are you going to argue the logical improbability of meeting up with one unique soul mate against such wide-ranging magical thinking? If you can control reality with your thoughts (The Secret) then obviously you can attract a soul mate. Or if you believe in predestination, then things will magically work to bring about a meeting because it's destiny. This seems a difficult concept to debunk. LIke I said, only time ever seems to convince people that they had it wrong, and even then, they sometimes just switch from the belief in ONE soul mate to the belief there are lots of possible soul mates and they just go looking for the next one.

[Lanzy]

I always thought of a soulmate as just the lucky happenstance of having what you consider the perfect partner. The relationship usually lasts if both partners feel this way. I have one, no souls or belief in them is necessary in any way. Soul used in a different sense of James Brown's soul but still valid usage without woo.

[Horatius]

I've had such reactions with three different women. Which one is my soul mate?




You need to consider the possibility that you're just a soulpolygamist.

[quarky]

I'm after my soul harem.

Lanzy, you may need a lawyer soon.

[Lanzy]

I'm after my soul harem.

Lanzy, you may need a lawyer soon.

:confused:

[wolfgirl]

I don't believe in souls or soulmates or any sort of metaphysical connection between people. However, it must be true that, in all the world, there is one person who is the very best suited to each of us. Just the person with the most things in common with us, the most shared interests, commonly held values, etc. The chance of us ever meeting that one person, though, is almost nil. So we do our best and find the person within our sphere that most closely matches that ideal and perfect partner. That's the best most of us can really hope for.

My husband and I both claim to be each other's soulmate, but we don't mean it in any sort of supernatural way, just that we feel a deep and abiding connection to each other, deeper and more profound than our connection to any other person. Is there another person in the world that would actually be better suited to each of us? Probably. But who has time to date 3,000,000,000 people?

[quarky]

I don't believe in souls or soulmates or any sort of metaphysical connection between people. However, it must be true that, in all the world, there is one person who is the very best suited to each of us. Just the person with the most things in common with us, the most shared interests, commonly held values, etc. The chance of us ever meeting that one person, though, is almost nil. So we do our best and find the person within our sphere that most closely matches that ideal and perfect partner. That's the best most of us can really hope for.

My husband and I both claim to be each other's soulmate, but we don't mean it in any sort of supernatural way, just that we feel a deep and abiding connection to each other, deeper and more profound than our connection to any other person. Is there another person in the world that would actually be better suited to each of us? Probably. But who has time to date 3,000,000,000 people?



Gripes, don't EVER brag on your relationship; its bad ju-ju.

that's why I mentioned that Lanzy might need a lawyer. And now, Wolfgirl might need one, too.


If you mostly bitch about your spouse, others will be less inclined to steal them from you. My old lady, for instance, sucks. What can I say?

Perversity aside, as per the odds of finding your soul-mate...

Well, if you decide to believe in souls, you'd know that they tend to congregate in situations that will facilitate the odds of them bumping into each other, reincarnated; working off the karma and such.

Therefore, its not like you need to date a billion people to find your soul-mate.
Oddly enough, she/he also lives in Peroria, Ill, and works at the same factory!

Souls are good at choosing the right situation to meet mr/mrs right, don't ya' know?

[GreyICE]

Who was it that said "Everyone has a soulmate, coincidentally most tend to be available, around the same age, and in the same neighborhood as eachother." I forget.

[tyr_13]

You need to consider the possibility that you're just a soulpolygamist.

I had never considered that. But to be perfectly honest I don't think I could handle being married to/soulmates with three women, let alone those three women.

Three insanely intelligent, remarkably creative, and eminently talented women to have a single life with? I'd spend all my days helping with videos, talking about books being read, getting painting and other art supplies, making statues, gardening, hiking, playing board games......

On second thought, I'd find some way to manage. :D

[Miss_Kitt]

Tyr, you haven't met ME yet...you might need room for a fourth!! :wink:

Seriously, I don't believe in mystic perfect matches, but I am now married to my best friend, whom I knew to be someone I had much of my private self "in common" with within two days of meeting him. I was with someone else at the time, so we were "just friends" for years; then when he was single and I was single, suddenly my Buddy was interested in being a Boyfriend. And now we are very happy, still in love, and have made the Amazing Peanut (world's perfect girl) as well.

As far as directly addressing the soulmate woo...sounds to me like there are a number of different versions that happen to use the same name. You'd have to debunk them a flavor at a time -- somewhat like Mystery Beast tales.

[LJ57]

Yeah, if you ask a new ager who believes in lietral, metaphysical soulmates you will get an abundance of different answers. Some say that a soulmate is just like we are, same age, same ineterests, etc. others say that they are basically complete opposites since we supposedly need to learn our karmic lessons from them. There really seems to be no common thread that runs through different explantions except for the general idea that it was "meant to be."

[Lanzy]

Gripes, don't EVER brag on your relationship; its bad ju-ju.

that's why I mentioned that Lanzy might need a lawyer. And now, Wolfgirl might need one, too.


If you mostly bitch about your spouse, others will be less inclined to steal them from you. My old lady, for instance, sucks. What can I say?

Perversity aside, as per the odds of finding your soul-mate...

Well, if you decide to believe in souls, you'd know that they tend to congregate in situations that will facilitate the odds of them bumping into each other, reincarnated; working off the karma and such.

Therefore, its not like you need to date a billion people to find your soul-mate.
Oddly enough, she/he also lives in Peroria, Ill, and works at the same factory!

Souls are good at choosing the right situation to meet mr/mrs right, don't ya' know?

Oh now I get it. Bad Ju-Ju, you must be a deep believer in Woo.
37 years together, can stand a bit o braggin.

[quarky]

No, I'm no 'wooster', and i apologize for my disparaging remarks.

37 years? Cool. Prime #!

(you should get a trophy)

[tyr_13]

Tyr, you haven't met ME yet...you might need room for a fourth!! :wink:

Seriously, I don't believe in mystic perfect matches, but I am now married to my best friend, whom I knew to be someone I had much of my private self "in common" with within two days of meeting him. I was with someone else at the time, so we were "just friends" for years; then when he was single and I was single, suddenly my Buddy was interested in being a Boyfriend. And now we are very happy, still in love, and have made the Amazing Peanut (world's perfect girl) as well.

As far as directly addressing the soulmate woo...sounds to me like there are a number of different versions that happen to use the same name. You'd have to debunk them a flavor at a time -- somewhat like Mystery Beast tales.


You see, that's what I'm talking about. That is how it is done. You find someone who suits you and can be friends with outside of the chemical crap that some people think is love, and you spend your life with that person. No woo crap, just what I would call, love.

Congratulations to you!

[Mashuna]

I think Tim Minchin sums it up best:

Gaid72fqzNE

[Lanzy]

No, I'm no 'wooster', and i apologize for my disparaging remarks.

37 years? Cool. Prime #!

(you should get a trophy)

Apology accepted.

I get jokes. Glad you do to.

[Safe-Keeper]

If by soulmate you mean "{dreamy voice} like, this person whose soul is identical to yours and who's the only person your karma and how, you know, dude, your chakras will be in, like, perfect alignment with - want some more hashish?", then I don't believe in them.

If you mean "a person you befriend and realize you have 'everything' in common with", then I have one:).

[paiute]

Having a "soulmate" begs the question that you have a soul.

You have used the term "begs the question" correctly.

Are you new to the Internet, or what?

[John Freestone]

You'd have to debunk them a flavor at a time -- somewhat like Mystery Beast tales.Mine is a Mystery Beast. It's the best thing about her.

Must a soul mate be conspecific? Could it be a sheep, say?

Baaah, the very idea! Sheep don't have souls.

[LJ57]

I have noticed that there alot of people in the "new age" community who claim that the internet is helping to bring more "soulmates" together...those who have been seaparted by the vast expanse of the ocean can now connect to the internet and connect with soulmates. If soulmates were true then you would think god, the universe, or whatever would have arranged for soulmates to be relatively close to each other in the first place.

[quarky]

The trouble with soul-mates is that you have unfinished business with them. When you're dealing with eternal souls, you tend to want to have some fun with them, so that you'll be sure to find them when you reincarnate.

No better way to ensure that than having a gawdaful relationship with a nasty divorce.

happily ever after is death to the soul's evolution; same like it would be in a movie; novel; computor game...we're here to get the crap kicked out of us. A soul mate could help, next time anyway...if you make each other miserable today.

(I hope that doesn't come off as cynical; I mean it in the grooviest way)

[bruto]

I have noticed that there alot of people in the "new age" community who claim that the internet is helping to bring more "soulmates" together...those who have been seaparted by the vast expanse of the ocean can now connect to the internet and connect with soulmates. If soulmates were true then you would think god, the universe, or whatever would have arranged for soulmates to be relatively close to each other in the first place.

AHA! I see your failing now. You are bringing in "old age" linear in-the-box overintellectualizing (see bolded phrase) to cloud the crystalline aura of the aquarian vision.

[John Freestone]

<snip>...those who have been seaparted by the vast expanse of the ocean <snip>Don't you just love it when that happens? Like your subconscious just coined a wonderfully appropriate and deeply emotive word - I guess - did you 'conite' that? What are they called? I want to say 'Freudian slip', but there was no knob gag.:D

Sorry, LJ57, I'm not sure whether you're suggesting we debunk soulmatehood in this thread - because you asked why it hadn't been debunked, like so many other woo ideas have, and that's a different question.

I think the question of why is interesting. I guess there's a very strong pressure at the moment to 'debunk' (or, maybe to be less insulting, 'criticise') intelligent design, fundamentalism, and a range of other conspicuous worldviews like the new-age religions, aliens and so on. They're quite powerful ideas politically, and then there are things like bigfoot, which are believed by a relative minority and whose eccentricity doesn't impact social functioning very much.

So those variables must be important - the popularity, the conspicuousness of a belief, and the political impact, the antagonism between believers and unbelievers. I'm not sure how popular the belief in soulmates actually is, and it would depend on what kind of population you looked at.

I suppose the idea of a 'correct' or 'perfect' mate is probably very widespread globally in one form or another. In the typical Western scenario it has become the romantic search of two individuals and its resolution in their meeting, but no doubt features in other forms in other cultures, such as the wise selection of a perfect mate by parents and elders as part of a wider religious construct. These would be the inculturated biological imperitives of the human evolutionary advantage of life pairing.

I really have very little idea how much our modern society has rewritten those genetic rules. On the face of it, it's easy to say we've scrapped them altogether, but sometimes I think those deep biological pressures can come out in new forms. Certainly one of the current moral themes regards the raising of children without the ubiquitous traditional nuclear family.

And, as others have noted, that points at one of the biggest differences between soulmates and bigfoot or God - it's right there, deep in our emotional reactions to our loved ones, including the survival and emotional health of our children. It's a handy myth to use as if it were true, and the responses here demonstrate that ambivalence: how can I reconcile my knowledge that it's a load of baloney with my need to keep things sweet?

We'd love to be really rational and say that it's all a matter of chemistry and chance and choice, but we have real feelings of love and real fears of isolation and real concerns for our offspring, no matter how much we understand the evolutionary causes of those things.

I think the answer to why soulmates hasn't been debunked is actually that behind it is a lot of fear. It dovetails into a lot of moral questions. Shall we debunk love? If we 'debunk' romantic love, shouldn't we also debunk 'empathy' (not such a bad idea the way some 'psychologists' go on about it) and 'sympathy'? And if that, then what about 'loving kindness' and 'justice' and 'equality'? Should we just go around 'acting like animals'?

If we're going to be purely rational about everything, where does that leave us with regard to morality? If there is no Absolute, telling us what is Right and Wrong, then 'adultery' is not a dreadful sin that we should punish severely or at all, but where do we draw the line once we relativise morality? Maybe we can and should have rational moral laws.

I'm rather ambivalent about a lot of these questions of debunking, because even if a social myth is 'unreal' or can be explained better in scientific terms, many of them are still important to people, and are the centre and mainstay of whole human cultures, connecting them with their history, giving them identity and creating meaning in their lives. I'm not quite sure how to justify ridiculing fundamental Christians, say, (and, shame on me, I do), while I argue for the preservation of and respect for 'other cultures'. It suggests perhaps that I mean it's ok to worship spirits and have strange rituals and bring your children up to believe in them if you live in the jungle where I can't see you, but not in my back yard.