The Real Ghosthunters

[seayakin]

Watching Ghost Hunters (one of many vices), I began to think if I were to assemble a ghost hunting team (as a skeptic) what kind of people would I need and what equipment. Moving forward with the assumption I had unlimited resources, what skills and equipment would be most valuable in debunking these case?

(I have ideas of my own but I'm curious what others would do.)

[Czarcasm]

You could assemble the team, but no one would ever call for you. People who call for "ghost busters" want ghosts to be real-businesses need the PR, and private individuals are looking for something that makes them(or their possessions) special.

[seayakin]

You could assemble the team, but no one would ever call for you. People who call for "ghost busters" want ghosts to be real-businesses need the PR, and private individuals are looking for something that makes them(or their possessions) special.

(sigh) You are absolutely correct, so many of the sites visited on the Ghost Hunters are looking for free advertising.

[paximperium]

A gallon of gasoline, a container and a lighter.
Flick...whooooosh...crackle...no more worries of ghosts.

[tyr_13]

I love Ghost Hunters, for a lot of reasons. I'd be in on a skeptical team.

Some people would call as long as you don't take the stand that everyone who believes in ghosts are morons. They aren't. And besides, some people don't want a place to be haunted. They want someone to come in and tell them that they aren't stupid or crazy, and don't really care if they are told they really have ghosts or that they were just fooled by remarkable (or mundane) happenings.

[not daSkeptic]

Watching Ghost Hunters (one of many vices), I began to think if I were to assemble a ghost hunting team (as a skeptic) what kind of people would I need and what equipment. Moving forward with the assumption I had unlimited resources, what skills and equipment would be most valuable in debunking these case?

By definition, anything paranormal is a hypothesis of last resort. You would thus have to be capable of testing for everything non-paranormal. This includes, but is not limited to, everything electrical, mechanical, structural, chemical, geological, meteorological, physiological, psychological, etc, etc, etc. In short, you would need access to anything and everything.

This is why groups such as TAPS are so ridiculous. They test a half-dozen or so things and then declare a site haunted, ignoring countless other possibilities. It would take nearly unlimited resources to really exhaust the options.

[RoboTimbo]

Team:
Architect
Home Inspector
Pest Control person
Electrical Engineer
Psychologist
Token Eye Candy
Electrician
(didja notice, no plumbers?)

Equipment:
FLIR
Thermal
Video
Lotsa Lights, why do Ghost Hunters always work in the dark?
oilcan, screwdriver, WD40, mousetraps, hammer
Alienware laptops
Hummer H2 vehicles

[rjh01]

Alternative.
1. Computer.
2. Printer.
3. Photo quality paper.
4. Publicity.

People tell you they want a building declared haunted, so they pay you a fee and you print out a suitable certificate saying that you have examined the evidence and concluded that the place is haunted.

[RoboTimbo]

Alternative.
1. Computer.
2. Printer.
3. Photo quality paper.
4. Publicity.

People tell you they want a building declared haunted, so they pay you a fee and you print out a suitable certificate saying that you have examined the evidence and concluded that the place is haunted.

Can we still have Hummers and Alienware laptops?

[Cainkane1]

I've noticed that a handful of people who have had their house checked for ghosts have chemicals in the house. I'd have equipment that checked for that and other factors such as carbon monoxide gas which causes hallucinations.

[Moochie]

I don't think you'd need a "team." Just one person would do. Equipment: a brain. :)


M.

[champagnej]

Just call Joe Nickell

[tyr_13]

I don't think you'd need a "team." Just one person would do. Equipment: a brain. :)


M.

Yeah, I'm sure that would go over well.

"Hi, you think you have a ghost? You have no brain, ghosts don't exist."

Really sensitive, ever wonder how skeptics get a bad rap? The challenge isn't to prove that ghosts don't exist, it is to figure out what is happening to make the people think they are there. It isn't always simple. Nature is wonderful and complicated (and cool) so some really weird stuff happens. How about, "you're not an idiot, just mistaken. Some really cool weird stuff tricked you and here is how..."

Also, why the hostility for plumbers? As if they couldn't be a good part of the team. Have you even seen the show? They disprove a lot of things just because they are plumbers. That is one of the things I love about the show, they do debunk stuff. I'm not saying it is perfect, but hey, I like it.

[not daSkeptic]

That is one of the things I love about the show, they do debunk stuff. I'm not saying it is perfect, but hey, I like it.

The problem is how little they debunk before declaring a site haunted. It's like filling out only the first line of your tax return and considering it done. A lot of really important stuff is skipped over.

[RoboTimbo]

Yeah, I'm sure that would go over well.

"Hi, you think you have a ghost? You have no brain, ghosts don't exist."

Really sensitive, ever wonder how skeptics get a bad rap? The challenge isn't to prove that ghosts don't exist, it is to figure out what is happening to make the people think they are there. It isn't always simple. Nature is wonderful and complicated (and cool) so some really weird stuff happens. How about, "you're not an idiot, just mistaken. Some really cool weird stuff tricked you and here is how..."

Also, why the hostility for plumbers? As if they couldn't be a good part of the team. Have you even seen the show? They disprove a lot of things just because they are plumbers. That is one of the things I love about the show, they do debunk stuff. I'm not saying it is perfect, but hey, I like it.


I should ETA my message then: No credulous plumbers who give a token attempt at debunking. Skeptical plumbers welcome.

[Moochie]

Yeah, I'm sure that would go over well.

"Hi, you think you have a ghost? You have no brain, ghosts don't exist."

Really sensitive, ever wonder how skeptics get a bad rap? The challenge isn't to prove that ghosts don't exist, it is to figure out what is happening to make the people think they are there. It isn't always simple. Nature is wonderful and complicated (and cool) so some really weird stuff happens. How about, "you're not an idiot, just mistaken. Some really cool weird stuff tricked you and here is how..."

Also, why the hostility for plumbers? As if they couldn't be a good part of the team. Have you even seen the show? They disprove a lot of things just because they are plumbers. That is one of the things I love about the show, they do debunk stuff. I'm not saying it is perfect, but hey, I like it.


Hey, I wasn't criticizing the program; I've never watched it. I was only responding to the OP. For ghost-hunting purposes, one person with a critical, clear-thinking, rational mind could effectively deal with the "ghostly" phenomena served up by the credulous, by coming up with more mundane reasons for the phenomena, if the phenomena is actually demonstrated to begin with. Very often it is anecdotal and that can be easily dealt with. The trouble is, true believers are not likely to be swayed by rational argument.


M.

[tyr_13]

Yeah, all valid points.

[technoextreme]

Really sensitive, ever wonder how skeptics get a bad rap? The challenge isn't to prove that ghosts don't exist, it is to figure out what is happening to make the people think they are there. It isn't always simple. Nature is wonderful and complicated (and cool) so some really weird stuff happens. How about, "you're not an idiot, just mistaken. Some really cool weird stuff tricked you and here is how..."

Yeah.... You do realize that most ghost hunters don't know how to use a thermometer correctly. Do you know how pathetic that is? If you actually knew on what level some of these people screw up you can not help but laugh at them.

[seayakin]

Hey, I wasn't criticizing the program; I've never watched it. I was only responding to the OP. For ghost-hunting purposes, one person with a critical, clear-thinking, rational mind could effectively deal with the "ghostly" phenomena served up by the credulous, by coming up with more mundane reasons for the phenomena, if the phenomena is actually demonstrated to begin with. Very often it is anecdotal and that can be easily dealt with. The trouble is, true believers are not likely to be swayed by rational argument.


M.


To a certain extent this is true; however, I do not have the expertise to find the alternate explanation for many things people call ghosts. Nor do I have some of he knowledge to debunk everything some woo ghosthunter might have put in their minds.

[tyr_13]

Yeah.... You do realize that most ghost hunters don't know how to use a thermometer correctly. Do you know how pathetic that is? If you actually knew on what level some of these people screw up you can not help but laugh at them.

I actually do know at the levels a lot of them screw up, and I seriously doubt you know many at all. You've spent very little time talking with some of these people and yet you want to all them all idiots because they believe in ghosts? You want to imply that I don't know the flaws in many investigations because I don't want to call them idiots? Dismissing people as idiots because they hunt ghosts is, well, idiotic. Not everyone who believes in any woo is a moron.

A lot of the things they miss are easy to figure out, but some if it is really hard. I've been doing it for years on TAPS boards.

Most people don't know how to use a laser thermometer correctly, so it is hardly pathetic for some investigators to use them wrong.

[ohp]

I reckon that ghost hunting is an excuse just to get a free holiday in an old hotel.

"Yes, the ghosts will tend to congregate in the most expensive suites..."

"OK, I just need to check if the cooked breakfast is haunted"

"Could you give me free access to the locked channels? I have reason to believe that the adult channels enhance ghost activity..."

[Moochie]

To a certain extent this is true; however, I do not have the expertise to find the alternate explanation for many things people call ghosts. Nor do I have some of he knowledge to debunk everything some woo ghosthunter might have put in their minds.


That's when you come here and pick the brains of the experts. :D


M.

[Moochie]

I reckon that ghost hunting is an excuse just to get a free holiday in an old hotel.

"Yes, the ghosts will tend to congregate in the most expensive suites..."

"OK, I just need to check if the cooked breakfast is haunted"

"Could you give me free access to the locked channels? I have reason to believe that the adult channels enhance ghost activity..."


I guess it's a living. :)


M.

[Clairvoyant_Kyle]

I say you need a stud finder to run across the walls. When it beeps tell the owners, “There is no question about it you have ghosts here. And from the beeping noise you just heard I say they are pretty angry.” Then present them with a “Glade Plug-in Air Freshener” and tell them, “If you buy this ghost repellent from me for the small cost of $100 it will take care of the problem. Then if in the future the ghost return just give me a call and I’ll send you a ghost repellent replacement cartage for the bargain price of $50.”

Ok, laugh all you want, but tell me that there aren’t people who would buy that hook line and sinker out there. You could probably even get away with it using actual Glade Plug-in Air Fresheners. Truly a sad world we live in. Unless you have no conscious about whom you step on to get rich.

-Kyle

[tyr_13]

The hard part would be to get an endorsement deal out of Glade at the same time! :p

[blutoski]

Watching Ghost Hunters (one of many vices), I began to think if I were to assemble a ghost hunting team (as a skeptic) what kind of people would I need and what equipment. Moving forward with the assumption I had unlimited resources, what skills and equipment would be most valuable in debunking these case?

(I have ideas of my own but I'm curious what others would do.)

This question comes up at JREF quit a bit. Lots of threads started, peter out.

It's important to distinguish between paranormal investigation and ghost hunting. Ghost hunters are trying to find the ghost that witnesses are reporting. Paranormal investigators are trying to figure out what's causing witnesses to report ghosts.

I usually toss out this url: [www.psican.org].

PSICAN is a semi-skeptical nonprofit dedicated to paranormal investigation. Their summary opinion is that all you need is a pen and paper to write down notes. All other equipment is a waste of time and money. The one area where I part with their investigative technique is that the endorse the use of sensitives/intuitives/mediums/psychics.

In any case, an above post is quite correct: if you sound even remotely skeptical, nobody will call you. Most people calling for ghost investigators are looking for validation and often also some sort of ritual a la exorcism. At the risk of being cynical, a lot of the calls to ghost hunters are suspicious - people selling houses, businesses looking for a marketing angle, mentally ill looking for somebody to tell them their delusions are actually real.

[bob_dezon]

There is no correct answer to this, but in short.

Q: Who do you need?
A: You

Q: What do you need?
A: Common sense, passing knowlege of psychology, general knowlege of what makes bumps moans and creaks.

This should be good enough to resolve "most hauntings". It is always good to try and see the angle of the person making the initial report. Some venues would like to boost income from dark tourism, and some are just lonely people who like a bit of company. I know of no case that could not be explained with a rational explanation (when you exclude those that are dodgy to begin with, or adapted by authors and gained a "life of their own" in the retelling)

[ohp]

I reckon that one of the most valuable pieces of equipment is a Gloriette 80 materialiser. They're hard to get , but you might find one on ebay.

There's a useful instructional video here:

euWOP895q9I

The experiment using the gloriette appears at about 2m40s into the video, but You should watch the whole thing from the start, otherwise you won't understand the context in which the equipment is used.

[dudalb]

I will believe a Ghost Hunter is real when he can show me a 100 Foot Stay Puft Marshmellow Man wallking down the street.

[tyr_13]

Wait, the Ghost Hunter has to show you the big white man to prove their own existence? lol

[Clairvoyant_Kyle]

Seems to me in the last couple of seasons on Ghost Hunters they have gained a lot of confidence in the K2 EMF Detectors. Now it does seem to be “working.” In that I mean they ask a question and it beeps and blinks out “answers.” So does anyone know any other reasons or have a guess of why this happens? I don’t think they are trying to pull off a scam, and they seem to use it as absolute proof that they are have real time conversations with ghosts. I think they are quick to jump to conclusions, but I have no counter explanation of what is going on. Any ideas?

-Kyle

[not daSkeptic]

So does anyone know any other reasons or have a guess of why this happens? I don’t think they are trying to pull off a scam, and they seem to use it as absolute proof that they are have real time conversations with ghosts. I think they are quick to jump to conclusions, but I have no counter explanation of what is going on. Any ideas?

The K2 is a completely unshielded device susceptible to EMF in a wide range of frequencies. Unfortunately, it does not differentiate between those frequencies in any way. It lights up for nearby electrical lines (its intended purpose), it responds to wireless radios, all sorts of things set it off. There are too many possibilities to think it's definitely ghosts. Regardless, there is no evidence to suggest ghosts even exist let alone can hear or understand us or manipulate electromagnetic fields. Assumptions built on assumptions built on assumptions with nothing but anecdote and speculation to back any of it up.

[technoextreme]

I actually do know at the levels a lot of them screw up, and I seriously doubt you know many at all.
No you don't. I'll admit I was cranky when I wrote that just because I now believe that a lot of people are just con artists, really stupid, or just plain ignorant. Pick one or the other but you can not pick one. I tend to think there are certain areas that complement the debunking aspect of certain woo and electrical engineering encompasses a lot of things that get mistaken for ghosts. It annoys me to no end to see them wave around equipment when they have no freaking clue how it works.
Seems to me in the last couple of seasons on Ghost Hunters they have gained a lot of confidence in the K2 EMF Detectors. Now it does seem to be “working.” In that I mean they ask a question and it beeps and blinks out “answers.” So does anyone know any other reasons or have a guess of why this happens?
Quite honestly it depends on how it's supposed to work. Some of the explanations I've read for these EMF detectors technically break the laws of physics.

[Moochie]

I reckon that one of the most valuable pieces of equipment is a Gloriette 80 materialiser. They're hard to get , but you might find one on ebay.

There's a useful instructional video here:

euWOP895q9I

The experiment using the gloriette appears at about 2m40s into the video, but You should watch the whole thing from the start, otherwise you won't understand the context in which the equipment is used.

Nice video, ohp, so terribly English :)

I used to have a "Beeb" personal computer. Delightful machine, and not a bit stuck up.


M.

[shayes666]

The K2 is a completely unshielded device susceptible to EMF in a wide range of frequencies. Unfortunately, it does not differentiate between those frequencies in any way. It lights up for nearby electrical lines (its intended purpose), it responds to wireless radios, all sorts of things set it off. There are too many possibilities to think it's definitely ghosts. Regardless, there is no evidence to suggest ghosts even exist let alone can hear or understand us or manipulate electromagnetic fields. Assumptions built on assumptions built on assumptions with nothing but anecdote and speculation to back any of it up.
You are 100% on the K2-II meter. I bought one to run some tests on it and to show people just how easy it is to manipulate. I can stand at about 15-20 feet away from it and make it light up just by keying my 2 way radio. A garage door opener will do the same. Who knows what other stray EM signals will set that meter (or any other AC EMF meter) off.

[Robin]

Seems to me in the last couple of seasons on Ghost Hunters they have gained a lot of confidence in the K2 EMF Detectors. Now it does seem to be “working.” In that I mean they ask a question and it beeps and blinks out “answers.” So does anyone know any other reasons or have a guess of why this happens? I don’t think they are trying to pull off a scam, and they seem to use it as absolute proof that they are have real time conversations with ghosts. I think they are quick to jump to conclusions, but I have no counter explanation of what is going on. Any ideas?

-Kyle
I haven't seen this particular show. Does it beep and blink out meaningful answers?

In this type of show I have seen before they fill the house with all sorts of random electronic instruments. Occasionally someone shouts "the frequency counter is going crazy!!!" and everybody will rush around in a panic and the camera-man will fiddle with the zoom.

Of course frequency counters left unconnected frequently "go crazy" and I always wonder what they are supposed to be counting anyway - spooks per second?

[Clairvoyant_Kyle]

I haven't seen this particular show. Does it beep and blink out meaningful answers?

In this type of show I have seen before they fill the house with all sorts of random electronic instruments. Occasionally someone shouts "the frequency counter is going crazy!!!" and everybody will rush around in a panic and the camera-man will fiddle with the zoom.

Of course frequency counters left unconnected frequently "go crazy" and I always wonder what they are supposed to be counting anyway - spooks per second?

I first saw some guy impress them with it in the house that sits on the property where Sharon Tate was murdered. Since then they have used in on at least 3 episodes. Basically they will ask questions and tell the “ghost” to make it light up doing the “once for yes two for no” method. It is right on cue virtually every time they ask a question. To the naked eye the K2 seems pretty impressive, but I think TV editing plays a large role in it seeming to work so good. (You know like John Edwards) Either way, I am just wondering why it would seem to work at all.

-Kyle

[not daSkeptic]

It is right on cue virtually every time they ask a question. To the naked eye the K2 seems pretty impressive, but I think TV editing plays a large role in it seeming to work so good. (You know like John Edwards) Either way, I am just wondering why it would seem to work at all.

Editing is a large part of it. If it really worked as well as it seems on the show the scientific community would be abuzz with all sorts of research activity.

The one/two yes/no system is also inherently flimsy as there are a lot of non-paranormal things that could cause the meter to blink that way. The good 'ol first ten primes test would be far more compelling.

[seayakin]

On Ghostunters they clearly use the K2 like a Ouiji board. However, someone here wrote it was an unshielded meter. Maybe someone can answer this here. You have someone with cameras and sound equipment filming the ghosthunters. How often might this equipment be interfering with devices like the K2 meter?

[Robin]

Editing is a large part of it. If it really worked as well as it seems on the show the scientific community would be abuzz with all sorts of research activity.

The one/two yes/no system is also inherently flimsy as there are a lot of non-paranormal things that could cause the meter to blink that way. The good 'ol first ten primes test would be far more compelling.
When I was a kid I played Ouija board with some friends, and for atmosphere we had a torch with failing batteries and a red napkin over it.

When we were in doubt about the "message" on the board we would ask the torch - blink once for yes, twice for no. The battery was dying throughout the session and it's "answers" would become more reliable as the night wore on. If it did not blink for a while we would say "it's thinking about it's answer" or if it did not blink at all we would intone "forbidden knowledge!".

Of course we were mucking about but it is easy to see if this were a piece of sophisticated equipment and we were serious ghosthunters it would be easy to interpret these random blinks as real answers.

[tyr_13]

From what I'm told about a K2, the cameras tend to not set them off unless they are very close.

However, the K2 is an unshielded EM meter. That means that a LOT of things can set them off at random. Personally, I think the K2 is just a less useful EMF meter (which is used for debunking not finding ghosts). The entire 'ask it questions' is pretty out there.

[RemieV]

Neat. It's been a while since my brand of expertise was called for around here ;)

Watching Ghost Hunters (one of many vices), I began to think if I were to assemble a ghost hunting team (as a skeptic) what kind of people would I need and what equipment. Moving forward with the assumption I had unlimited resources, what skills and equipment would be most valuable in debunking these case?

(I have ideas of my own but I'm curious what others would do.)

You say "debunking these cases". That's just about as bad as saying "prove these to be hauntings". If you're out there *checking* to see what's happening based on reports of strange activity, great. But you should never go into an investigation of any type thinking you already know the answer. If you actively disbelieve in ghosts, there's no reason to investigate at all.

By definition, anything paranormal is a hypothesis of last resort. You would thus have to be capable of testing for everything non-paranormal. This includes, but is not limited to, everything electrical, mechanical, structural, chemical, geological, meteorological, physiological, psychological, etc, etc, etc. In short, you would need access to anything and everything.

This is why groups such as TAPS are so ridiculous. They test a half-dozen or so things and then declare a site haunted, ignoring countless other possibilities. It would take nearly unlimited resources to really exhaust the options.

I don't feel that this is precisely right. If you put twenty five people in a "haunted" location, all you're doing is increasing the amount of things you'll have to explain. It's going to be cluttered, people are going to trip over wires, and tracing whatever you get back to its source will be infinitely more difficult.

The problem with hauntings, and many paranormal investigators have stated this, is that the activity isn't consistent. I'm not saying that they're right, just to be clear. I have no idea. But if the reported activity was "this mirror falls off of this wall at 8pm every single day" then that would be easy to figure out if you had several experts give their opinions. However, for every one of those experts there would be another expert that said they were wrong, and it would be easy to dismiss that one individual's evidence unless you were personally there as well, etc, etc etc.

Either fortunately or unfortunately, that is not how paranormal investigators claim hauntings work. A mirror might fall off the wall OR a bed might levitate OR there might be footsteps on the stairs and on and on and on.

The question then becomes - at what point does the number of strange occurences exceed chance? If you have twenty five people in the house, I think the answer would be "never". If you have two to document and everyone else reviews, well, then that's more compelling.

Team:
Architect
Home Inspector
Pest Control person
Electrical Engineer
Psychologist
Token Eye Candy
Electrician
(didja notice, no plumbers?)

Equipment:
FLIR
Thermal
Video
Lotsa Lights, why do Ghost Hunters always work in the dark?
oilcan, screwdriver, WD40, mousetraps, hammer
Alienware laptops
Hummer H2 vehicles

FLIR is thermal.

As for why Ghost Hunters work in the dark, I suppose it depends on which answer you like. You can pick the answers that give them credit, or the ones that don't - depending upon which you'd prefer.

Either they...

Have noticed a trend in ghost sightings that make it appear as though ghosts prefer to manifest at night...

or...

They know that having lights on will alter thermal readings, and having televisions on will alter EMF readings...

or...

It's spookier that way.

Yeah, I'm sure that would go over well.

"Hi, you think you have a ghost? You have no brain, ghosts don't exist."

Really sensitive, ever wonder how skeptics get a bad rap? The challenge isn't to prove that ghosts don't exist, it is to figure out what is happening to make the people think they are there. It isn't always simple. Nature is wonderful and complicated (and cool) so some really weird stuff happens. How about, "you're not an idiot, just mistaken. Some really cool weird stuff tricked you and here is how..."

Also, why the hostility for plumbers? As if they couldn't be a good part of the team. Have you even seen the show? They disprove a lot of things just because they are plumbers. That is one of the things I love about the show, they do debunk stuff. I'm not saying it is perfect, but hey, I like it.

There are two types of paranormal (particularly ghost) shows, and I think Ghost Hunters is of the type that annoys me more.

The first type is simply entertainment. That would be "Paranormal State". In at least the first season of Paranormal State (and I don't know about current episodes as I stopped watching) something would happen, or someone would get a feeling, or there would be a cold breeze, and they didn't bother trying to figure out where it came from. Of course they didn't. It's not that kind of show. It's a horror/entertainment show, and that's perfectly alright. There is no evidence to review because they don't have any. I don't think the show is lacking because they don't attempt debunks. That's not what the show is intended for.

The second type is a debunk type, and that's where things get a little hairy. "Ghost Hunters" falls into this category. What they're supposed to be doing is a skeptical interpretation of events in a supposedly haunted location. However, they are limited by their own knowledge, they are limited by their equipment, and they are limited by time. Presenting it as a thorough investigation with all skeptical opinions presented is false. I don't know if that means you would fault the ghost hunters themselves, or the conditions under which they are required to work. Whichever, it reeks of insincerity.

[RemieV]

Yeah.... You do realize that most ghost hunters don't know how to use a thermometer correctly. Do you know how pathetic that is? If you actually knew on what level some of these people screw up you can not help but laugh at them.

Again, I am unsure whether to fault the ghost hunters or the conditions they are required to work under. I have no doubt that TAPS is aware that an IR thermometer only measures surface temperature. I am also sure that the production company wants the TAPS boys to be holding equipment during scenes. This is indicated by the progression of equipment as well.

Take "Haunting Evidence", for example, wherein paranormal investigator Patrick Burns uses stationary equipment and sits in exactly one place. This means that he can use equipment with sensors; that the sensors are placed in 'high-activity' areas, and that to see a fluctuation all he does is look at a computer screen.

Then you move back over and take a look at the TAPS boys. Within their show, they are active participants in the events. *They* are the ones running around searching for readings. There is no one sitting at a computer able to tell them about temperature fluctuations because no one is focused on a particular area more than any other.

This means that whatever temperature sensors they use will need to be mobile. And ambient air sensors a) don't work all that fast and b) aren't terribly portable. So, if they need to carry around a handheld temperature device, that pretty much takes it down to an IR thermometer. And the justification one could use is this - if the TAPS boys believe that a camcorder with nightshot can pick up a ghost (which... well, they use Sony camcorders with Nightshot, so yeah) then they believe an infrared beam will be sufficient to show a ghost. If the IR beam can work on a ghost when it's attached to a camcorder, perhaps it can when attached to a thermometer as well.

Again, I have no clue whether or not any of this has been thought out that far, I'm just holding up the defense side of this conversation.

At some point, either a) the TAPS boys got sick of using equipment they didn't believe in or b) the people in charge of production decided they wanted a prettier readout than just numbers, and the FLIR thermal imaging camera was brought on board. Now, the FLIR still measures surface temperature unless the temperature variation between the air and everything else is so great that the air shows up. And I'm talking thousands of degrees of difference. But it is a step up. If a ghost, which is cold but not thousands of degrees colder, shows up and cannot be seen on the camera itself... Well, anything it touches will alter the surface temperature of that object and show up that way. So like... you could get ghost trails, but not ghosts. Assuming there were ghosts.

At this point I feel obligated to point out that never, in the entire history of paranormal television shows that I am aware of, has anything shown up on a FLIR camera that was *colder* than the surrounding area. Warmer, yes. "Paranormal State" had an episode called 'The Glove' where a warm handprint showed up. "Ghost Hunters" has had multiple warm anomalies.

The K2 is a completely unshielded device susceptible to EMF in a wide range of frequencies. Unfortunately, it does not differentiate between those frequencies in any way. It lights up for nearby electrical lines (its intended purpose), it responds to wireless radios, all sorts of things set it off. There are too many possibilities to think it's definitely ghosts. Regardless, there is no evidence to suggest ghosts even exist let alone can hear or understand us or manipulate electromagnetic fields. Assumptions built on assumptions built on assumptions with nothing but anecdote and speculation to back any of it up.

Keep in mind, though, that the 'ghost' doesn't have to manipulate electromagnetic fields in order for a KII to give a reading. If there are ghosts, it could simply be making the lights flash - no electromagnetic toying required.

I haven't seen this particular show. Does it beep and blink out meaningful answers?

In this type of show I have seen before they fill the house with all sorts of random electronic instruments. Occasionally someone shouts "the frequency counter is going crazy!!!" and everybody will rush around in a panic and the camera-man will fiddle with the zoom.

Of course frequency counters left unconnected frequently "go crazy" and I always wonder what they are supposed to be counting anyway - spooks per second?

It wouldn't be the first time. In both "Hell House" and "Rose Red" there was ghost hunting equipment designed specifically to count the number of otherworldly entities present.

[Skeptic Guy]

Yeah, I'm sure that would go over well.

"Hi, you think you have a ghost? You have no brain, ghosts don't exist."

Really sensitive, ever wonder how skeptics get a bad rap? The challenge isn't to prove that ghosts don't exist, it is to figure out what is happening to make the people think they are there. It isn't always simple. Nature is wonderful and complicated (and cool) so some really weird stuff happens. How about, "you're not an idiot, just mistaken. Some really cool weird stuff tricked you and here is how..."

Also, why the hostility for plumbers? As if they couldn't be a good part of the team. Have you even seen the show? They disprove a lot of things just because they are plumbers. That is one of the things I love about the show, they do debunk stuff. I'm not saying it is perfect, but hey, I like it.

I don't think there was an intent to suggest that people who think there are ghosts don't have a brain or are "stupid". I think the point was that the only tool a real, skeptical "ghost hunter" would need would be a brain.

There is no evidence that EMF, FLIR, or audio equipment pick up signals from the "supernatural world". The equipment that the Ghost Hunters and others of their ilk use work on very well known physical laws, if ghosts truly did generate radiation in the frequency ranges that this equipment can capture, ghosts would no longer be supernatural, but part of the natural, observable world.

And I don't think it is surprising that the Ghost Hunters "debunk" a haunting on occasion. I think that they have to throw those in on occasion to demonstrate that they are not totally credulous and they can disappoint someone now and then.

I used to watch GH quite a lot but after a while I couldn't stomach it anymore. There was so much credulity, misuse of technology, and utter BS that it became painful. I even participated in the TAPs forum a bit but it too became painful, though I may go back again. There were so many claims about Ouiji boards and haunted TVs and no matter how you tried to suggest rational explanations to their concerns, there was no interest. And sometimes you would get people posting on TAP that were honestly frightened and thought that they were "haunted" and instead of trying to work through it logically, posters would just spout out things that would scare them more.

I actually do know at the levels a lot of them screw up, and I seriously doubt you know many at all. You've spent very little time talking with some of these people and yet you want to all them all idiots because they believe in ghosts? You want to imply that I don't know the flaws in many investigations because I don't want to call them idiots? Dismissing people as idiots because they hunt ghosts is, well, idiotic. Not everyone who believes in any woo is a moron.

A lot of the things they miss are easy to figure out, but some if it is really hard. I've been doing it for years on TAPS boards.

Most people don't know how to use a laser thermometer correctly, so it is hardly pathetic for some investigators to use them wrong.

But its not even important that they know how to use a laser thermometer correctly, the fact is that there is no evidence that ghosts, if there are such a thing as ghosts, generate a temperature gradient. If they generated heat, or lack of heat, it would meant they resided in the natural world, they would be measurable, we would know what the mean temperature of a ghost is, be able to make predictions and test for it. The same way with EVPs, EMFs, etc. We understand how this equipment works since humans built them and how they are supposed to measure the world around us. Ghosts don't have voice boxes, bodies, feet (to walk the floors and make creepy noises), so there is really no way they can be measured with these devices.

There is no consistent definition among the ghost hunters on how the ghosts interact with this equipment. I carried on a dialog with a TAPs member about EVPs. I provided an EVP to the forum and asked members to listen to it and let me know what they heard by PM so that listeners could not cue one another. I had five respondents with five different answers...that's because they were hearing what they wanted hear. There was nothing there.

I first saw some guy impress them with it in the house that sits on the property where Sharon Tate was murdered. Since then they have used in on at least 3 episodes. Basically they will ask questions and tell the “ghost” to make it light up doing the “once for yes two for no” method. It is right on cue virtually every time they ask a question. To the naked eye the K2 seems pretty impressive, but I think TV editing plays a large role in it seeming to work so good. (You know like John Edwards) Either way, I am just wondering why it would seem to work at all.

-Kyle

I haven't watched them in a while, but I would imagine that there was a PA off to the side keying a walkie talkie in response. Or the K2 was blinking regularly and just seemed to be responding to the questioning. The TAPs fellows have been accused of playing with evidence before.

On Ghostunters they clearly use the K2 like a Ouiji board. However, someone here wrote it was an unshielded meter. Maybe someone can answer this here. You have someone with cameras and sound equipment filming the ghosthunters. How often might this equipment be interfering with devices like the K2 meter?

The very fact that the camera equipment was running at the same time would mean there was RF going on. Combine that with wireless mics, cell phones, lighting, etc. and it could be anything.

Again, I am unsure whether to fault the ghost hunters or the conditions they are required to work under. I have no doubt that TAPS is aware that an IR thermometer only measures surface temperature. I am also sure that the production company wants the TAPS boys to be holding equipment during scenes. This is indicated by the progression of equipment as well.

Yay, a pro is here. I think that the "coolness" factor plays here. Ghost hunters are expected to carry electronic gadgetry whether it does anything or not.

Keep in mind, though, that the 'ghost' doesn't have to manipulate electromagnetic fields in order for a KII to give a reading. If there are ghosts, it could simply be making the lights flash - no electromagnetic toying required.

But we understand how a light bulb works. It requires electricity, a specific, and measurable, wavelength of EM. The only way to make it light up is to provide it with an electromagnetic field. Therefore, a ghost would be required to generate it. How you can determine it was a ghost and not the batteries in the unit, I don't know. :D

[tyr_13]

Yeah, I don't spend much time of the TAPS boards any more because of the reasons you cited. It is annoying when people are just scaring each other and don't want to listen to anything anyone else has to say on it. Remember the guy who insisted that we weren't seeing the 'ghosts' in some of the pictures because most of us used LCD screens? And that is just the tip of the silliness.