Psychics - Aussie skeptic says it like it is

[AndyD]

Haven't seen this posted here.

Australian journalist Peter Fitzsimons calls a spade a spade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNYIOz-qOdY) on Aussie TV and calls on the show's hosts to join him in denouncing psychics.

The hosts demonstrate why skeptics have an uphill battle spreading the cause of reason. "Lots of people believe", says David Koch in an apparent effort to defend his unwillingness to agree with Fitzsimons.

So what if lots of people believe? As a "financial guru", Koch would be very familiar with the Firepower fuel pill debacle. Lots of people believed in Firepower and lots of people lost money as a result of believing. Belief doesn't necessarily equal truth.

[lionking]

Well done Fitzy. I liked him as a rugby player, but my opinion of him has increased mightily. The whole cast of "Sunrise" are tools.

Good plug for Michael Shermer BTW. I will try to find Fitzy's website to congratulate him.

[Moochie]

Haven't seen this posted here.

Australian journalist Peter Fitzsimons calls a spade a spade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNYIOz-qOdY) on Aussie TV and calls on the show's hosts to join him in denouncing psychics.

The hosts demonstrate why skeptics have an uphill battle spreading the cause of reason. "Lots of people believe", says David Koch in an apparent effort to defend his unwillingness to agree with Fitzsimons.

So what if lots of people believe? As a "financial guru", Koch would be very familiar with the Firepower fuel pill debacle. Lots of people believed in Firepower and lots of people lost money as a result of believing. Belief doesn't necessarily equal truth.

Thanks for the link, AndyD. I never watch these idiots, preferring to get my giggles watching the morons on Fox News on cable.

I don't know if this was a setup to increase ratings or not -- to simply call what Edward does "a nonsense" is "a nonsense," IMO. Fitzy might have said a little about cold reading, and then sent viewers to Michael Shermer's site, or even to this site.

Still, better than nothing, I suppose.


M.

[Sideroxylon]

Good on him for speaking out. We need more media figures to stand up and tell it like it is instead of pandering to these charlatans when they make an appearance on such shows.

[Chris H]

Well done Fitzy!

Chris

[buzz lightyear]

Haven't seen this posted here.

Australian journalist Peter Fitzsimons calls a spade a spade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNYIOz-qOdY) on Aussie TV and calls on the show's hosts to join him in denouncing psychics.

The hosts demonstrate why skeptics have an uphill battle spreading the cause of reason. "Lots of people believe", says David Koch in an apparent effort to defend his unwillingness to agree with Fitzsimons.

So what if lots of people believe? As a "financial guru", Koch would be very familiar with the Firepower fuel pill debacle. Lots of people believed in Firepower and lots of people lost money as a result of believing. Belief doesn't necessarily equal truth.

LOL............Peter Fitzsimons??????????
A clown who made his money out of chasing a ball around a paddock is your "man".

Oh he is a beaut all right.

Did you watch that whole utube clip?

I think he took one too many hits in the scrum.
The only thing that he proves, is that some Australians are incredibly gullible.
If they are stupid enough to listen to a meat head like him it is no wonder they end up going to "psychics".

Football hero.......ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ah :rolleyes:

[Seanrmr]

Yes he has proved that some Australians are gullible but hopefully he will get some of the viewers to become more interested and start doing some more critical thinking. Which even if it gets one more person less gullible it is a good thing.

[lionking]

Welcome seanrmr and good point.

[wombatwal]

LOL............Peter Fitzsimons??????????
A clown who made his money out of chasing a ball around a paddock is your "man".

Oh he is a beaut all right.

Did you watch that whole utube clip?

I think he took one too many hits in the scrum.
The only thing that he proves, is that some Australians are incredibly gullible.
If they are stupid enough to listen to a meat head like him it is no wonder they end up going to "psychics".

Football hero.......ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ah :rolleyes:

A football hero? Who said he was a football hero?
Yes he did play for Australia in Rugby, this does not make him a meathead though.
Anyway buzzy, what have you achieved of note in life?

[Sideroxylon]

The only thing that he proves, is that some Australians are incredibly gullible.


I haven't heard much from Fitzsimons in a long time but he said nothing in that clip to make me think he was a "meat head". Perhaps putting his body on the line in his chosen sport has given him a bit more guts than others on TV to come out and label psychic claims ********. He seemed to be trying to call that other bloke (David?) out and it had me wondering if he simply didn’t want to agree with such things on camera.

[buzz lightyear]

He seemed to be trying to call that other bloke (David?) out

This is exactly what he was trying to do Sideroxylon.

He is your classic aggressive dumb meat head footballer trying to sound as though there is more than just a few blood clots between his ears.

His tone was pure confrontational bullying, about a subject he admitted he had no experience with.

Now, if he was discussing how to scull a dozen schooners, bash some innocient bystander, and four of you pack rape a football groupie at a motel at Coffs Harbour, I might accept that he knew what he was talking about.

Otherwise I suggest he shut the ***** up!

[lionking]

Fitzsimons did all of that?????

[wombatwal]

I have to agree with you Buzzy on his attitude.
But the rest??
It's like saying all Australian NSW politicans are paedophiles because one is, or was a politician. Think again Buzzy before you tar everyone from one sector with the same brush.
I think you are the meathead.

[buzz lightyear]

I have to agree with you Buzzy on his attitude.
But the rest??
It's like saying all Australian NSW politicans are paedophiles because one is, or was a politician. Think again Buzzy before you tar everyone from one sector with the same brush.
I think you are the meathead.

You obviously haven't been in a nightclub at 2am with half a dozen of these clowns wombatwal.

Perhaps Fitzsimons wasnt guilty of all the misdemeanors that I mentioned, but he definitely is not a "sensitive new age guy".
Which is the point that I am trying to make.

He may not know how to roll a fifty dollar bill to snort coke of the dunny lid as most of the current crew do, but the culture of football does not alter much over the years.

The unfortunate thing is that these thugs are the roll model for many young people.

[wombatwal]

You obviously haven't been in a nightclub at 2am with half a dozen of these clowns wombatwal.

Perhaps Fitzsimons wasnt guilty of all the misdemeanors that I mentioned, but he definitely is not a "sensitive new age guy".
Which is the point that I am trying to make.

He may not know how to roll a fifty dollar bill to snort coke of the dunny lid as most of the current crew do, but the culture of football does not alter much over the years.

The unfortunate thing is that these thugs are the roll model for many young people.

So you are saying all footballers do this, or some or most. How do you know. Or do you get your news about this from the sporting gossip columns.

[Brian-M]

Perhaps Fitzsimons wasnt guilty of all the misdemeanors that I mentioned, but he definitely is not a "sensitive new age guy".
Which is the point that I am trying to make.


From that YouTube clip it's obvious he's not a "sensitive new age guy", and doesn't pretend to be one.

It doesn't matter what he used to do for a living, only whether or not what he's saying makes sense.

Being a footballer doesn't necessarily make someone a 'meathead'. From your vehement posts, you have some serious prejudice against them.

Ad hominem attacks like this don't help your argument, they just make you look stupid.

[lionking]

As buzz is sometimes known to be economical with the truth I thought I would fill in some of the gaps (chasms is a better word) in his depiction of Peter Fitzsimons. Yes he was an international rugby union player (and a good one), but he is also a best selling author of military history ("Tobruk" and "Kokoda"); a very good public speaker; a journalist and IMVHO, quite intelligent.

If I had to listen to someone to air an opinion on John Edward, it would be Fitzsimons well before that airhead Kochy, or even before someone like buzz.

[tyr_13]

Thank you lionking. I was curious, but also lazy. I'm blaming sunburn.

[buzz lightyear]

If I had to listen to someone to air an opinion on John Edward, it would be Fitzsimons well before that airhead Kochy, or even before someone like buzz.

You can listen to whoever you like lionking.

But if you get your spiritual insights from a footballer, there is a good possibility that you will not achieve nirvana in this lifetime.

As for John Edward, I have no opinion of him as I know nothing of him and don't personally care either.

Herein lies the difference between me and loudmouths like Fitzsimons, if I don't know, I don't pretend that I do.

In the utube clip he presents himself as a dumb bully.

And as they say "what you see is what you get".

Don't get me wrong. Some of the moves that footballers execute are pure poetry in motion, such as this beauty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAboJAcWESg&feature=related

And it was with his left hand.

[lionking]

I'm not going to look at the link because I'm pretty sure what it is. Completely different code BTW.

Well what precisely is your point?

That he was a footballer? As I have pointed out, he is now much more than that. Have a look at his writing, if you want to know more about his capabilities.

That he doesn't know? Doesn't know what? What are you really upset about? That he calls psychics charlatans? Is that it?

[arthwollipot]

And of course everybody knows that all footballers are dumb meatheads who can't discourse intelligently to save their lives.

[TjW]

Are you saying buzz used to play rugby?

[lionking]

Are you saying buzz used to play rugby?

Nominated.

[George152]

There are a number of Rugby players who are Rhode scholars.
And others who have doctorates in their specialities.
What, I wonder, has buzz lightyear succeeded in apart from posting in a real sceptical group ?

[Chris H]

This is exactly what he was trying to do Sideroxylon.

He is your classic aggressive dumb meat head footballer trying to sound as though there is more than just a few blood clots between his ears.

His tone was pure confrontational bullying, about a subject he admitted he had no experience with.


To be fair, I think he does know a little bit about it. My opinion is only based on this clip, but not everyone knows who Michael Shermer is, and he knows his website address.

Not only that, but he knows the ticket prices for Edwards show in Australia, gives a (very) brief overview of how cold reading works without mentioning it, questions why psychics never reveal useful information about the departed, and is smart enough to remember that he has already talked about his belated relatives in the media.

Not bad for an "aggressive dumb meat head footballer".

Again, nice work Fitzy.

Chris

[devnull]

Im sitting here wondering how the hell we got from Fitzy railing against frauds to the Hall punch........ thats some mental gymnastics right there.....

[lionking]

Sorry to say devnull, but I preferred your last avatar.;)

[zooterkin]

The only thing that he proves, is that some Australians are incredibly gullible.

Sadly, that does appear to be true.

[Mashuna]

Herein lies the difference between me and loudmouths like Fitzsimons, if I don't know, I don't pretend that I do.


This is demonstrably untrue.

[buzz lightyear]

To be fair, I think he does know a little bit about it. My opinion is only based on this clip, but not everyone knows who Michael Shermer is, and he knows his website address.

Not only that, but he knows the ticket prices for Edwards show in Australia, gives a (very) brief overview of how cold reading works without mentioning it, questions why psychics never reveal useful information about the departed, and is smart enough to remember that he has already talked about his belated relatives in the media.

Not bad for an "aggressive dumb meat head footballer".

Again, nice work Fitzy.

Chris

You are right Chris.

For good old Fitzy to remember all that stuff is phenomenal.
Next time I'm trying to comprehend the structure of reality I must give him a call.

[lionking]

Okay buzz, rather than adopting your usual tactic of ridicule, how about you give us the benefit of your take on psychics? At least Fitzsimons took a position on the matter. What about you?

[Sideroxylon]

You are right Chris.

For good old Fitzy to remember all that stuff is phenomenal.
Next time I'm trying to comprehend the structure of reality I must give him a call.

I lol’ed at your earlier post generalizing about footballers but you are missing/ deliberately avoiding the point of the OP, which is the fact someone in the media has dared to come out and state the obvious. In fact, Fitzsimons’ main point seems to be a call on other media figures to do the same. It doesn’t take a genius to understand that psychics are all as real as Father Christmas. To state such things in the media, however, seems to be about as taboo as exposing the truth about the man in the red suit to a class of preschoolers. Granted, there are many in the media that believe in such things but I suspect there are many who bite their tongue so as to avoid offending a viewer demographic. Fitzsimons’ “bullying” of Kotchey was rather tame stuff and what a piss-weak response he got: “I sometimes have my doubts .. but a lot of people believe”

I do wonder though what Barry Hall has to say on the subject.

[Brian-M]

You can listen to whoever you like lionking.

But if you get your spiritual insights from a footballer, there is a good possibility that you will not achieve nirvana in this lifetime.


Nobody's trying to get any spiritual insights from Fitzsimons, and he isn't offering any. All he's doing is speaking out against fraudulent psychics. You don't need to be a genius to do that. Your entire argument boils down to: "He's a footballer, so he's stupid."

This petty, bigoted stereotyping against footballers makes absolutely no sense. I can only wonder if your irrational viewpoint has been tainted by an unfortunate encounter with a footballer or footballers in the past.

It's strange that you continue to pigeon-hole him as a footballer when he's been a journalist for nearly twenty years. It's bizarre that you label him as a "meat-head" when he speaks four languages, has an arts degree from Sydney University majoring in government and political science, and has written eighteen best-selling books.

If it helps get your mind out of it's narrow little track, try thinking of him as a writer instead.

FitzSimons is an established author with such books as Kokoda, which recounts the numerous battles between Australian and Japanese Troops on the Kokoda track during World War II, and biographies of former Australian Labor Party leader Kim Beazley, Nick Farr-Jones, John Eales, Nancy Wake and Steve Waugh. His latest book is Tobruk, which recounts the story of the Rats of Tobruk as they fought during World War II against Italian, then later the Afrika Korps as they were led by then-General Erwin Rommell.

[godless dave]

I have to agree with you Buzzy on his attitude.
But the rest??
It's like saying all Australian NSW politicans are paedophiles because one is, or was a politician. Think again Buzzy before you tar everyone from one sector with the same brush.

This is buzz lightyear's style. He is a blatant troll. He was suspended for a while but I guess the admins let him back in for entertainment purposes.

[buzz lightyear]

."

It's strange that you continue to pigeon-hole him as a footballer when he's been a journalist for nearly twenty years. It's bizarre that you label him as a "meat-head" when he speaks four languages, has an arts degree from Sydney University majoring in government and political science, and has written eighteen best-selling books.

If it helps get your mind out of it's narrow little track, try thinking of him as a writer instead.

I hear what you are saying Brian-M.

But forgive me if I am wrong, but nowhere in your appraisal of dear old Fitzy does it mention that he has any knowledge of what I would call "the occult".

And if you want to pump the "Ive been to Uni therefore I smart" rubbish, forget it.
I also know a uni professor of languages, and the silly bugger cant even change the tyre on his car. Nice guy though.

So I'm doing as AndyD says that Fitzsimons was supposed to be doing "calling a spade a spade".

I saw a confessed uninformed, obvious bully, shooting his mouth off.

And why am I doing this?

Well once Tricky was asked " why does he reply to my posts?"

He replied " If no body did, it would give the impression that every body was in agreement with what I had said".

So, same here!

[tyr_13]

Why would a professor of languages need to know about tires?

Are you saying these scam artists should be given the benefit of the doubt and believed?

Your assesment of him being uninformed seems to be based on, well, nothing. He certainly did show that he knew about cold reading, and some other tricks that these 'mediums' use. What is your problem with him? That he disagrees with you?

He knows that the occult tends to be a bunch of bs, and how. How is that uniformed?

[Jeff Corey]

...The unfortunate thing is that these thugs are the roll model for many young people.
Roll model? Like one of these?http://www.eurobake.com/WebModules/Products/Upload/5120071148221.jpg

[AndyD]

But forgive me if I am wrong, but nowhere in your appraisal of dear old Fitzy does it mention that he has any knowledge of what I would call "the occult".

Apparently he knows it's bunkum, hardly a maverick idea. I think what you really meant was that he didn't demonstrate any support for what you would call "the occult".

[Damien Evans]

This is exactly what he was trying to do Sideroxylon.

He is your classic aggressive dumb meat head footballer trying to sound as though there is more than just a few blood clots between his ears.

His tone was pure confrontational bullying, about a subject he admitted he had no experience with.

Now, if he was discussing how to scull a dozen schooners, bash some innocient bystander, and four of you pack rape a football groupie at a motel at Coffs Harbour, I might accept that he knew what he was talking about.

Otherwise I suggest he shut the ***** up!

Peter Fitzsimons is no meathead. He is a highly respected author and journalist. People who have been in one too many scrums don't write well regarded books about WW2. Fitzsimons does. You're completely wrong about him.


I would also like to point out that Fitzsimons would have no interest in helping sunrises ratings, as his wife hosts the Today show, its direct rival.

[SimonD]

But if you get your spiritual insights from a footballer, there is a good possibility that you will not achieve nirvana in this lifetime.


Can you get into nirvana by making negative comments about another person? Better watch out for karma

[Skeptic]

Well done Fitzy. I liked him as a rugby player, but my opinion of him has increased mightily.

Shows that, contrary to stereotype, smart people are found in all walks of life. It's my experience as well, and probably most people's: e.g., the number of idiot professors -- and intelligent street sweepers -- is larger that one would suspect.

[Sideroxylon]

Shows that, contrary to stereotype, smart people are found in all walks of life. It's my experience as well, and probably most people's: e.g., the number of idiot professors -- and intelligent street sweepers -- is larger that one would suspect.

People have posted evidence of Fitzsimons' nous and it seems only Buzz disputes that, but does it really take high inteligence to see through psychic frauds? I think one factor at work in the media is something of an Emperor's New Clothes effect that needs to be dispelled.

[zooterkin]

But forgive me if I am wrong, but nowhere in your appraisal of dear old Fitzy does it mention that he has any knowledge of what I would call "the occult".
How knowledgeable can one be about something which doesn't exist? He did seem pretty well informed about the bag of tricks that so-called mediums use, though.

[buzz lightyear]

That he doesn't know? Doesn't know what? What are you really upset about? That he calls psychics charlatans? Is that it?

I have had a good chew over this question lionking.
I too have wondered what pissed me off about the utube clip.

And the answer is that I hate bullies.

It is an old reflex that goes back to my days at high school.

I went to a large school where every grade had a dozen classes A,B,C,D,.....ect. Being the studious academic type I was in the A class along with the rest of the weedy bespectacled nerds. And as it happens in these situations your class mates become your friends.

But as luck would have it I matured early. So by the age of 13 I stood 6ft tall, weighed 150lbs, with a fair growth of stubble on my chin.

Now in Australia we have a tradition of standing by your mates in a fight. So whenever one of the bullies in the dumber classes would try to run roughshod over one of my little nerdy mates I would find my self busting heads.

And here 40years later I see a boneheaded clown verbally bullying a little dope like Kotchey, what can I do?

Its the old concrete slab outside the fire station on Friday afternoon all over again.

[politas]

Thanks for the link, AndyD. I never watch these idiots, preferring to get my giggles watching the morons on Fox News on cable.

I don't know if this was a setup to increase ratings or not -- to simply call what Edward does "a nonsense" is "a nonsense," IMO. Fitzy might have said a little about cold reading, and then sent viewers to Michael Shermer's site, or even to this site.

Still, better than nothing, I suppose.

Did you not watch to the end? he explicitly mentioned Michael Shermer, and the www.skeptic.com website.

[zooterkin]

I have had a good chew over this question lionking.
I too have wondered what pissed me off about the utube clip.

And the answer is that I hate bullies.

So, you don't like the way he said what he did. Fair enough, he did put his point across forcefully, and I can understand you might feel that was bullying. But that's not a point you raised at all in your earlier posts, for example:
LOL............Peter Fitzsimons??????????
A clown who made his money out of chasing a ball around a paddock is your "man".

Oh he is a beaut all right.

Did you watch that whole utube clip?

I think he took one too many hits in the scrum.
The only thing that he proves, is that some Australians are incredibly gullible.
If they are stupid enough to listen to a meat head like him it is no wonder they end up going to "psychics".

Football hero.......ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ah :rolleyes:

Your post is almost entirely an ad hom; because this guy played football, he can't have a valid opinion, all other evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

Now in Australia we have a tradition of standing by your mates in a fight. So whenever one of the bullies in the dumber classes would try to run roughshod over one of my little nerdy mates I would find my self busting heads.
Are you saying it's your mates being bullied this time? Do you mean the presenters, or the woo peddlers?


And here 40years later I see a boneheaded clown verbally bullying a little dope like Kotchey, what can I do?
Well, you could actually point it out, rather than addressing something else entirely. And there you go again with the 'boneheaded clown'. Did you read the other posts above that show that this guy is apparently anything but boneheaded.

Its the old concrete slab outside the fire station on Friday afternoon all over again.

I have absolutely no idea what this refers to.

[zooterkin]

The only thing that he proves, is that some Australians are incredibly gullible.
If they are stupid enough to listen to a meat head like him it is no wonder they end up going to "psychics".




But forgive me if I am wrong, but nowhere in your appraisal of dear old Fitzy does it mention that he has any knowledge of what I would call "the occult".


If going to "psychics" is stupid, what is there to know about "the occult"?

What point are you arguing, exactly?

[lionking]

I have had a good chew over this question lionking.
I too have wondered what pissed me off about the utube clip.

And the answer is that I hate bullies.

It is an old reflex that goes back to my days at high school.

I went to a large school where every grade had a dozen classes A,B,C,D,.....ect. Being the studious academic type I was in the A class along with the rest of the weedy bespectacled nerds. And as it happens in these situations your class mates become your friends.

But as luck would have it I matured early. So by the age of 13 I stood 6ft tall, weighed 150lbs, with a fair growth of stubble on my chin.

Now in Australia we have a tradition of standing by your mates in a fight. So whenever one of the bullies in the dumber classes would try to run roughshod over one of my little nerdy mates I would find my self busting heads.

And here 40years later I see a boneheaded clown verbally bullying a little dope like Kotchey, what can I do?

Its the old concrete slab outside the fire station on Friday afternoon all over again.
It's hard to tell whether you are serious or not (a little bit like Jerome in some ways), but just giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are, was not your busting of heads bullying?

Nah, you can't be serious.

[Mashuna]

Being the studious academic type I was in the A class

What went wrong?

[EvilSmurf]

LOL............Peter Fitzsimons??????????
A clown who made his money out of chasing a ball around a paddock is your "man".

Fitzy retired in 1989. Rugby did not become professional until 1995.

[politas]

And here 40years later I see a boneheaded clown verbally bullying a little dope like Kotchey, what can I do?
Kochie's no dope; he's an intelligent man. His unwillingness to make a firm statement of his own understanding about "psychic" fraudsters shows what a weasel he is. I can easily understand and sympathise with Fitz's obviously well-controlled annoyance at Kochie's sliminess.

[Brian-M]

But forgive me if I am wrong, but nowhere in your appraisal of dear old Fitzy does it mention that he has any knowledge of what I would call "the occult".

And if you want to pump the "Ive been to Uni therefore I smart" rubbish, forget it.
This is called "moving the goalposts". Your initial claim was that we shouldn't listen to him because he's a "meathead". Now you're claiming we shouldn't listen to him because he's not an expert on the occult. Not that you need to be an expert to voice your opinion that it's nonsense.

(And actually, I was pumping the "he's got a degree majoring in political science so he's probably not a complete meathead" rubbish. :) )

I have had a good chew over this question lionking.
I too have wondered what pissed me off about the utube clip.

And the answer is that I hate bullies.

Ah... If you'd got straight to this point at first, you'd have saved us some time. :)


And here 40years later I see a boneheaded clown verbally bullying a little dope like Kotchey, what can I do?
I can understand that. The only reason I posted in this thread was because you seemed to be attacking Fitzy for no reason (or logic).

In the YouTube clip, it doesn't seem to me that Fitzsimons is bullying him at all.

[buzz lightyear]

If going to "psychics" is stupid, what is there to know about "the occult"?

What point are you arguing, exactly?

Expecting that by consulting a "psychic" online or down at the corner shops is going to be any more that an interesting distraction could be considered mildly stupid, zooterkin.

But going on Television and badgering people to give opinions on a subject that you know absolutely zero about is bulk stupid.

Do you realise that what could be termed the "occult", is the oldest science known to man. It is the mother of all knowledge, surviving for over 100,000 years in a dozen different cultures.

It is the reason a puny little naked ape was able to survive in a big tough world.
It was the shaman, the original occultist, who studied the stars, the seasons, the herbs, the animals, the landscape, so that his people would know where to hunt and live.

It was the medieval "witch" who was the original pharmacist, treating disease and injury with herbs and poultices while the orthodox "doctors" were simply blood letting.

It was the alchemist seeking the philosophers stone that gave rise to modern chemistry.

It is from the churches and mosques of the world that writing and mathematics arrive.

And all these people have one thing in common, they were seeking the "occult" or "unseen".

So if you have a lifetime or two there is buckets to be learned about the occult. You cant just log onto Mr Shermer's web page, memorise a couple of lines, and bang your stupid gums together without looking like a complete halfwit.

[arthwollipot]

Expecting that by consulting a "psychic" online or down at the corner shops is going to be any more that an interesting distraction could be considered mildly stupid, zooterkin.

But going on Television and badgering people to give opinions on a subject that you know absolutely zero about is bulk stupid.

Do you realise that what could be termed the "occult", is the oldest science known to man. It is the mother of all knowledge, surviving for over 100,000 years in a dozen different cultures.

It is the reason a puny little naked ape was able to survive in a big tough world.
It was the shaman, the original occultist, who studied the stars, the seasons, the herbs, the animals, the landscape, so that his people would know where to hunt and live.

It was the medieval "witch" who was the original pharmacist, treating disease and injury with herbs and poultices while the orthodox "doctors" were simply blood letting.

It was the alchemist seeking the philosophers stone that gave rise to modern chemistry.

It is from the churches and mosques of the world that writing and mathematics arrive.

And all these people have one thing in common, they were seeking the "occult" or "unseen".

So if you have a lifetime or two there is buckets to be learned about the occult. You cant just log onto Mr Shermer's web page, memorise a couple of lines, and bang your stupid gums together without looking like a complete halfwit.You know...



Nah. Totally not worth it.

[rjh01]

You know...



Nah. Totally not worth it.

You are right. Not worth even reading, let alone responding. Total crap.

[buzz lightyear]

You are right. Not worth even reading, let alone responding. Total crap.

Is that you Fitzy?

Got that same "highbrow" style.

[arthwollipot]

Some trolls I'll engage, just for the fun of it.

[buzz lightyear]

Some trolls I'll engage, just for the fun of it.

Well duckies, do it, don't just dribble, your mum is going to have to clean that shirt.

[AndyD]

But going on Television and badgering people to give opinions on a subject that you know absolutely zero about is bulk stupid.

The primary subject here was John Edward. He's been all over TV and is transcribed in a few places on the net. He's been the subject of a great deal of discussion. It doesn't take a genius to know a few things about him.

Do I really have to let a shonky builder build me a house before I can believe all those people who showed me evidence of his shonkiness?

And all these people have one thing in common, they were seeking the "occult" or "unseen".

And this relates to John Edward how?

[Cuddles]

Your post is almost entirely an ad hom; because this guy played football, he can't have a valid opinion, all other evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

Of course, the fact that he didn't play football still doesn't seem to have quite got through.

[zooterkin]

Expecting that by consulting a "psychic" online or down at the corner shops is going to be any more that an interesting distraction could be considered mildly stupid, zooterkin.
You won't find me disagreeing with that statement.


But going on Television and badgering people to give opinions on a subject that you know absolutely zero about is bulk stupid.

From the clip I saw, he seemed to know a fair bit about the tricks charlatans use.


Do you realise that what could be termed the "occult", is the oldest science known to man. It is the mother of all knowledge, surviving for over 100,000 years in a dozen different cultures.

It is the reason a puny little naked ape was able to survive in a big tough world.
It was the shaman, the original occultist, who studied the stars, the seasons, the herbs, the animals, the landscape, so that his people would know where to hunt and live.

It was the medieval "witch" who was the original pharmacist, treating disease and injury with herbs and poultices while the orthodox "doctors" were simply blood letting.

It was the alchemist seeking the philosophers stone that gave rise to modern chemistry.

It is from the churches and mosques of the world that writing and mathematics arrive.

And all these people have one thing in common, they were seeking the "occult" or "unseen".

So if you have a lifetime or two there is buckets to be learned about the occult. You cant just log onto Mr Shermer's web page, memorise a couple of lines, and bang your stupid gums together without looking like a complete halfwit.

You haven't demonstrated that there is anything to know about the occult itself, only that in searching for mythical things such as the philosopher's stone, mankind eventually happened on the scientific method.

Can you give an example of something 'occult' that isn't better understood by science?

[zooterkin]

Of course, the fact that he didn't play football still doesn't seem to have quite got through.

I was assuming it was a local usage for someone who plays rugby football, but I may be over-generous.

[buzz lightyear]

You haven't demonstrated that there is anything to know about the occult itself, only that in searching for mythical things such as the philosopher's stone, mankind eventually happened on the scientific method.

Can you give an example of something 'occult' that isn't better understood by science?

Sorry AndyD if I slip a little more off topic, but this needs answering.

zooterkin, the examples that I gave, pointed out that the occult led to science.
This was to show you that they are one and the same, they are the passages that lead to knowledge.

They both require the same techniques of experimentation and study.

Hopefully one day science and religion will once again reunite and the modern scientific methods will be used to explore the occult.

Perhaps then the "leaches of religion" and the hard rule of science will dissipate for good.


Oh, yeah, while I think of it.

The slab of concrete out side the Fire Station on Friday afternoon was a bit like high noon at the OK corral.
It was a convenient spot on the main road from school to town where disputes were settled. Friday was a good day as it gave time for injuries to heal and tempers to quell over the weekend.

[arthwollipot]

I was assuming it was a local usage for someone who plays rugby football, but I may be over-generous.He was a rugby union player. That's a kind of football. There's also rugby league, which is similar to rugby union, but slightly more civilised. We also play Aussie rules, which is what most people south of the border refer to as "footie", and we play soccer. American football we refer to as American football, or gridiron. Saying that someone played "football" is not sufficient information for an Australian to determine exactly what game someone played.

[arthwollipot]

Well duckies, do it, don't just dribble, your mum is going to have to clean that shirt.Talk to the hand.

[buzz lightyear]

Talk to the hand.

It is remarkable, arthwollipot, how much skeptics resemble catholics, these days.

If you say something that challenges a catholic's faith, he screams "heretic", makes the sign of the cross and runs away.

If you do the same to a skeptic he screams "troll", makes the one finger salute (which I assume is "Talk to the hand") and runs away.

Probably something , as Rupert Sheldrake would suggest, to do with "morphic fields".

[arthwollipot]

It is remarkable, arthwollipot, how much skeptics resemble catholics, these days.

If you say something that challenges a catholic's faith, he screams "heretic", makes the sign of the cross and runs away.

If you do the same to a skeptic he screams "troll", makes the one finger salute (which I assume is "Talk to the hand") and runs away.Probably.

Probably something , as Rupert Sheldrake would suggest, to do with "morphic fields".You're trying real hard, and I'm not reacting, Buzz. There's no way you're going to rile me up.

[politas]

zooterkin, the examples that I gave, pointed out that the occult led to science.
This was to show you that they are one and the same, they are the passages that lead to knowledge.

They both require the same techniques of experimentation and study.Mmm, yes. Exactly the same. That's why study of the occult went nowhere and produced no effective techniques for improving human life in thousands of years, while science has consisted of a body of testable and effective knowledge that grows faster every year and gives demonstrable value to human society.

Yep. No difference there.

[Mashuna]

zooterkin, the examples that I gave, pointed out that the occult led to science.
This was to show you that they are one and the same, they are the passages that lead to knowledge.
Except that the occult led mostly to ignorance and failure, so was abandoned, superseded by the scientific methodology.


They both require the same techniques of experimentation and study.

No, the experimentation and study of science rendered the paraphernalia and mysticism of the occult worthless.


Hopefully one day science and religion will once again reunite and the modern scientific methods will be used to explore the occult.

The occult has already been explored. Anything useful has been kept, all the rest has been cut away and discarded.

[Moochie]

Did you not watch to the end? he explicitly mentioned Michael Shermer, and the www.skeptic.com (http://www.skeptic.com) website.


Yes, I did. I thought it might have been helpful if he'd talked a little about cold reading before mentioning the Shermer site. But it's occurred to me that Fitzy might not be familiar with cold reading techniques, so couldn't talk about it.


M.

[Damien Evans]

Fitzy retired in 1989. Rugby did not become professional until 1995.

We all know they were getting paid long before then though.

[arthwollipot]

Mmm, yes. Exactly the same. That's why study of the occult went nowhere and produced no effective techniques for improving human life in thousands of years, while science has consisted of a body of testable and effective knowledge that grows faster every year and gives demonstrable value to human society.

Yep. No difference there.That's a really good point. We had mysticism and the occult for thousands of years with only modest advances in technology - mostly construction and military technology at that. Then came the Rennaissance and the beginnings of the scientific method and in four hundred years we have global communications networks and twice the average lifespan.

The thing about science is that it works.

[Moochie]

That's a really good point. We had mysticism and the occult for thousands of years with only modest advances in technology - mostly construction and military technology at that. Then came the Rennaissance and the beginnings of the scientific method and in four hundred years we have global communications networks and twice the average lifespan.

The thing about science is that it works.

Well put, the both of you. We'd do well to memorize these important facts and use them when responding to woo everywhere. They (the true believers in all things fantastical) really have no comeback.


M.

[buzz lightyear]

Well put, the both of you. We'd do well to memorize these important facts and use them when responding to woo everywhere. They (the true believers in all things fantastical) really have no comeback.

M.

Memorising lines of rhetoric and repeating them parrot fashion seems to be very common practise here.
Sorry guys this does you no justice in a discussion. It just shows that you have no thought of your own, just like the Mormon at your door on Sunday morning.

And Mashuna, to say that the occult has been totally explored is like saying that we know every thing about existence.

It has been explored with a wide variety of techneques by many people, but little has been done using the scientific process.
The results that I have achieved, (agree with them or not) would not have been possible 100 years ago.
The technology (GPS, digital cameras, computers, aircraft, automobiles and modern pharmaceuticals) that I used were not available then. So who knows what will be available in the future.

It is vital that we explore this realm, as it holds the answers to the most important questions that man could ask:

Who we are.
Where we came from.
And where do we go (if we do) after this life.

[Mashuna]

And Mashuna, to say that the occult has been totally explored is like saying that we know every thing about existence.

No it isn't, it's saying that we've explored many occult claims, found them to be gibberish and so discarded them. No need to keep exhuming them.


It has been explored with a wide variety of techneques by many people, but little has been done using the scientific process.
The results that I have achieved, (agree with them or not) would not have been possible 100 years ago.
The technology (GPS, digital cameras, computers, aircraft, automobiles and modern pharmaceuticals) that I used were not available then. So who knows what will be available in the future.

It is vital that we explore this realm, as it holds the answers to the most important questions that man could ask:

Who we are.
Where we came from.
And where do we go (if we do) after this life.

It's just so wrong, I can't be bothered to address it.

[buzz lightyear]

It's just so wrong, I can't be bothered to address it.

You know...



Nah. Totally not worth it.

You are right. Not worth even reading, let alone responding. Total crap.

Remarkabe number of people who have responded who didn't think that was worth it, but they did.
One even responded, who hadnt read the post.

And interestingly they all subscribe to the scientific method which is experimentation and observation.

Hmmm

You guys should really practise what you preach. It is a good way to get at the truth.

For instance:

Your good mate Jim Callahan has a thing happening called "The Seance Project" where he is doing some sort of Halloween experiment.
He has invited anyone to participate, so how about you guys signing up, I have.

I believe he is just a performer, nothing more. But if I really want to know, then the scientific approach is, to be involved. Find out for your self.
Stop the backslapping and delve a little deeper.

If he is a charlatan, as I believe he is, you will have first hand evidence, not the pointless "Nah, Totally not worth it" statements that you are using at the moment.

Lift your game, guys!

[politas]

Memorising lines of rhetoric and repeating them parrot fashion seems to be very common practise here.
Sorry guys this does you no justice in a discussion. It just shows that you have no thought of your own, just like the Mormon at your door on Sunday morning.
Of course, what Moochie suggested was remembering the facts, not memorising lines of rhetoric, so your comment is completely mis-aimed and close to slanderous.

[buzz lightyear]

Of course, what Moochie suggested was remembering the facts, not memorising lines of rhetoric, so your comment is completely mis-aimed and close to slanderous.

Then while you are spouting your anti occult propaganda, politas, it probably good to add that a couple of facts.

These being, that in that in those four hundred years of "Renaissance" we in the West have so lost the meaning of existence that we have to medicate, on a massive scale, against the depression that has followed.

We also spend more on weapons than any other projects, except probably space exploration. And we do that because we believe the place is inevitably buggered and on the long term it is best to get the ***** out.

We cant even drink the water :boggled:

It is time for a new Renaissance, politas.

[AndyD]

That's a really good point. We had mysticism and the occult for thousands of years with only modest advances in technology - mostly construction and military technology at that. Then came the Rennaissance and the beginnings of the scientific method and in four hundred years we have global communications networks and twice the average lifespan.

Skeptico's "Pretty Soon (http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2006/06/pretty_soon.html)" sums it up nicely.

Your good mate Jim Callahan has a thing happening called "The Seance Project" where he is doing some sort of Halloween experiment. He has invited anyone to participate, so how about you guys signing up, I have.

So, what you're saying is that we must never take a disbelieving stance on any individual claim but must always test every claim, personally and at our own expense, in order to determine its veracity. So if anyone says unicorns exist and for a hundred bucks a head they'll prove it to a large audience, we should hand over the cash - every time. Excuse me while I stop laughing.

I really don't think science needs to waste much time testing unfalsifiable claims but it's worth noting that, to date, psychics seem to have been universally unable to satisfy science as to their legitimacy.

Now...

Psychics release Claremont killer "identikit: thread and story link here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=126622)

That's why we need more "bullies" like Fitzsimons and less of the "why can't we all just get along" brigade in the media.

Sorry to drag it back on topic so abruptly.

[buzz lightyear]

Skeptico's "Pretty Soon (http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2006/06/pretty_soon.html)" sums it up nicely.


we need more "bullies" like Fitzsimons and less of the "why can't we all just get along" brigade in the media.

Sorry to drag it back on topic so abruptly.

Thanks for the link to the SPR site AndyD.
http://www.spr.ac.uk/expcms/index.php?section=4

I found the quote;
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding every thing I cannot explain as fraud"
by C. G. Jung.
something all should contemplate.

And I am glad you agree that Fitzsimons is a bully. From what I see he is committing the fashionable stupidity that Jung refers to.

[zooterkin]

Then while you are spouting your anti occult propaganda, politas, it probably good to add that a couple of facts.

These being, that in that in those four hundred years of "Renaissance" we in the West have so lost the meaning of existence that we have to medicate, on a massive scale, against the depression that has followed.

We also spend more on weapons than any other projects, except probably space exploration. And we do that because we believe the place is inevitably buggered and on the long term it is best to get the ***** out.

We cant even drink the water :boggled:

It is time for a new Renaissance, politas.
What does any of this have to do with whether the "occult'" actually exists?

[The Fool]

John Edward is a simple character, commonly available. He is a simple con artist. In order to survive he needs two things. Victims and supporters.

I can understand his victims, they are often vulnerable people. What I can't understand are his apologists. To me, they are no different from him.

[buzz lightyear]

What does any of this have to do with whether the "occult'" actually exists?

Its a little like a mathematic equation zooterkin.

When you look a formula, it is the piece that is missing that is the answer to the question.

If you look at history, it is possible to see that as man moves away from "occult" practises his lifestyle causes degradation in his social structure and his environment.

The example that expresses this most vividly is the Australian aborigines.

Their lifestyle was based heavily on what could be called the most perfect example of the "occult".
This lifestyle allowed them to successfully survive in the most hostile of environments. It kept their social structure together and caused minimal impact on the land.

Since the comming of the western culture their social structure has dissolved and the lands destroyed.

The missing part of the equation is their knowledge of the occult. They now either don't care or have been brainwashed into the new christian religion.
So much has been lost.

[politas]

If you look at history, it is possible to see that as man moves away from "occult" practises his lifestyle causes degradation in his social structure and his environment.You really have no clue.

The example that expresses this most vividly is the Australian aborigines.

Their lifestyle was based heavily on what could be called the most perfect example of the "occult". Bwahahahaha!
This lifestyle allowed them to successfully survive in the most hostile of environments. It kept their social structure together and caused minimal impact on the land.I wouldn't call Australia "the most hostile of environments", and the aboriginal way of life was extremely wasteful. Their society could never support the number of people living in Australia today, and it is a way of life that is harsh and unforgiving, where people die young frequently and have few choices in life.

Since the comming of the western culture their social structure has dissolved and the lands destroyed.Their culture is not compatible with western culture, and western culture is stronger. Of course their social structure has dissolved. The incompatibility with a dominant culture quite adequately explains the problems facing aboriginal people trying to maintain traditional culture today. There is no need to disparage their retention of their own beliefs.

[buzz lightyear]

I wouldn't call Australia "the most hostile of environments", and the aboriginal way of life was extremely wasteful. Their society could never support the number of people living in Australia today, and it is a way of life that is harsh and unforgiving, where people die young frequently and have few choices in life.



You have a long road ahead of you, as an Australian, if you want to know this land, politas.

And if one day you find yourself sitting in the red dust at Uluru with tears streaming down your cheeks you will begin to understand.

Your journey will have just begun.

[lionking]

You are well off topic here buzz, so I will continue with this de-rail by saying that I have seen quite a few patronising posts in this forum, but this is right up there with the best.

You know the land do you? Through occult means?

Give me strength.

I have not put anyone on ignore before, but you may well get the honour of being the first.

[Old Bob]

I recall Fitzsimons sucking up to Howard on his gun confiscation, that opened the media door for the meathead. I don't laugh at anything I don't understand or comprehend and as someone said earlier the occult was the first herbs and medicine treatment and yes we have come a long way, look at the success rate on cancer. Have kemo and die. What is classed as the occult? Reading tea leaves, dowsing, tarot cards (harmless) Did fiss say what section he was against or was he just big mouthing.

[lionking]

Wow buzz, you now have Old Bob on your side. Time for the rest of us to concede.:rolleyes:

[zooterkin]

I recall Fitzsimons sucking up to Howard on his gun confiscation, that opened the media door for the meathead. I don't laugh at anything I don't understand or comprehend

It must be awful to go so long between moments of amusement.

and as someone said earlier the occult was the first herbs and medicine treatment and yes we have come a long way, look at the success rate on cancer.

Yes, indeed, let's. Exactly what was the success rate of the occult against cancer? Yet now, due to the advances of medicine, we can for example actually prevent some people from suffering particular forms of cancer (http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=16024).

Have kemo and die.

Have chemo and have a chance to live longer; I don't think modern medicine yet offers the hope of eternal life. What exactly does the occult offer?


What is classed as the occult? Reading tea leaves, dowsing, tarot cards (harmless) Did fiss say what section he was against or was he just big mouthing.

It was Buzz Lightyear who brought in the more general topic of the 'occult', accusing Fitzsimons of being stupid for dismissing it. Fitzsimons was specifically talking about psychics.

[politas]

You have a long road ahead of you, as an Australian, if you want to know this land, politas.

And if one day you find yourself sitting in the red dust at Uluru with tears streaming down your cheeks you will begin to understand.

Your journey will have just begun.
Not all of Australia is like the Western desert areas, and they are far, far more hospitable than Antartica or even the Sahara. Your statement continues to be an absurd one.

Like today, the population distribution of the indigenous peoples was mainly clustered down the East and southern coasts of Australia.

I think it is you that has a lot to learn if you want to understand Australian history and world geography.

[Old Bob]

Dream time is as near as you can get to the occult and Buzz is right about harsh places. I've been where you need 4 litres of water to walk 1 K. The occult ways kept the ab---natives alive. On really cold desert nights whites would die but the native Australian can slow blood flow to arms and legs, keeping body core at a survival temp. That only applies to the real full bloods. I'm here to keep Lionking informed, Giday.

[AndyD]

"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding every thing I cannot explain as fraud" by C. G. Jung.

"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg." by Bjarne Stroustrup

"Women might be able to fake orgasms. But men can fake a whole relationship." by Sharon Stone

"I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it." by Groucho Marx

Now that we've got some random quotes out of the way, what has any of that got to do with debunking so-called psychics? Okay, maybe the Groucho Marx one is applicable to watching psychics at work.

What has Edward (or any other stage psychic) done that can't be explained (or hasn't been explained)? What exactly did Fitzsimons say that you disagree with? Anything?

Sorry to keep dragging this back on topic. Actually, not really.

[Mashuna]

And if one day you find yourself sitting in the red dust at Uluru with tears streaming down your cheeks you will begin to understand.



Always peel onions under running water. This avoids the problem you describe.

[buzz lightyear]

what has Edward (or any other stage psychic) done that can't be explained (or hasn't been explained)? What exactly did Fitzsimons say that you disagree with? Anything?

Sorry to keep dragging this back on topic. Actually, not really.

We have waffled a fair way of topic haven't we AndyD, and either the posters here don't reach for the report button or the Mods have changed their attitude.
Either way, beside Mashuna's dribble, it has been a good thread. Probably because of the number of Aussies involved.

So on this concilitary note I will agree that, from what I have seen, most stage psychics are just performers. I too want proof before I "believe".

And as I said, it was more Fitzsimons attitude that I found obnoxious than what he had to say.
It is his same "jam it down their throats" attitude that also gives rise for my intense dislike of James Randi.

[zooterkin]

So on this concilitary note I will agree that, from what I have seen, most stage psychics are just performers. I too want proof before I "believe".

Only 'most'? Who are the genuine ones, then?


And as I said, it was more Fitzsimons attitude that I found obnoxious than what he had to say.
It is his same "jam it down their throats" attitude that also gives rise for my intense dislike of James Randi.
You don't like people being told the truth? I don't see Randi being any more aggressive than some of the performers claiming psychic and other abilities, and he is not giving false hope and preying on credulity.

[Brian-M]

Dream time is as near as you can get to the occult and Buzz is right about harsh places. I've been where you need 4 litres of water to walk 1 K. The occult ways kept the ab---natives alive. On really cold desert nights whites would die but the native Australian can slow blood flow to arms and legs, keeping body core at a survival temp. That only applies to the real full bloods. I'm here to keep Lionking informed, Giday.

It's OK to say "Aborigines" Old Bob. It's calling them "Abbos" that people in the dowsing thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3967796&highlight=abbos#post3967796) objected to. :)

What makes you believe that it's the occult keeping them alive? If what you say about slowing the blood flow to the arms and legs on cold nights is true (and I have my doubts), and only the "real full bloods" can do it, then that sounds like the result of genetic variation to me. A product of evolution, not the occult.

[TjW]

Dream time is as near as you can get to the occult and Buzz is right about harsh places. I've been where you need 4 litres of water to walk 1 K. The occult ways kept the ab---natives alive. On really cold desert nights whites would die but the native Australian can slow blood flow to arms and legs, keeping body core at a survival temp. That only applies to the real full bloods. I'm here to keep Lionking informed, Giday.

It's OK to say "Aborigines" Old Bob. It's calling them "Abbos" that people in the dowsing thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3967796&highlight=abbos#post3967796) objected to. :)

What makes you believe that it's the occult keeping them alive? If what you say about slowing the blood flow to the arms and legs on cold nights is true (and I have my doubts), and only the "real full bloods" can do it, then that sounds like the result of genetic variation to me. A product of evolution, not the occult.

Personally, I'd think I'd be warmer using a product of science, such as a sleeping bag.

[Old Bob]

The blood flow control to me is beyond normal and any thing outside "normal" gets called woo or impossible. Doesn't that apply to six sense abilities and get renamed the occult.? After all what is the occult?, isn't it doing things out side the square. Water witching and burnt at the stake comes to mind with Fizz screaming "Burn the crazy" with ch. 7 filming. (what a sick bunch)

[Brian-M]

The blood flow control to me is beyond normal and any thing outside "normal" gets called woo or impossible. Doesn't that apply to six sense abilities and get renamed the occult.? After all what is the occult?, isn't it doing things out side the square. Water witching and burnt at the stake comes to mind with Fizz screaming "Burn the crazy" with ch. 7 filming. (what a sick bunch)

No. The occult deals with things outside the "natural" laws of physics. (That's why it's called the "super-natural".)

If anything has a scientifically explainable basis, it is not "occult" or "super-natural".

[buzz lightyear]

You know the land do you? Through occult means?

Give me strength.


Yes lionking, I do know the land through "occult" means.

The ability to pick up the most subtle traces of human presence is common to most people.
Have you ever walked into your home and thought "someone has been here" even though there is no physical evidence?
I does happen.

So imagine the amount of lingering "presence" that a people leave after 50,000 years.

The most beautiful for me was a little pool of water in the Olga Gorge at Kata Juta. Curiosity drew me too it, but as I sat beside it I could feel the men painting themselves. On further inspection I could see the polished areas of rock where they had ground the ocher. The colours were still faintly visible.
It was not something that I had planned or was looking for, it just happened.

It is every where in this land lionking.

[lionking]

So can anyone do this buzz, or is it restricted to special people like you? Old Bob earlier suggested that you had to be a pure blood aborigine. Are you?

Is Australia particularly special in this regard? Or would it also work in places in Europe and Africa where there has been human habitation for hundreds of thousands of years?

In the absence of any verification, your experience is an amusing dinner party anecdote. Nothing more.

[arthwollipot]

Who we are.Hi - I'm arthwollipot. Who are you?Where we came from.Well, when a mummy and a daddy love each other very much... And where do we go (if we do) after this life.Define "we" in this context.

The occult ways kept the ab---natives alive.Goodness, he learned something from that thread!

Always peel onions under running water. This avoids the problem you describe.Waste of water. Drought, you know. Stage 5 water restrictions. You need to just suck it up.

It's OK to say "Aborigines" Old Bob. It's calling them "Abbos" that people in the dowsing thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3967796&highlight=abbos#post3967796) objected to. :)The preferred term these days is "indigenous australians".

The ability to pick up the most subtle traces of human presence is common to most people.
Have you ever walked into your home and thought "someone has been here" even though there is no physical evidence?
I does happen.No, buzz. I believe that I can safely say that this has never happened to me. Has it occurred to you that it may just be your overactive imagination?

[buzz lightyear]

So can anyone do this buzz, or is it restricted to special people like you? Old Bob earlier suggested that you had to be a pure blood aborigine. Are you?

Is Australia particularly special in this regard? Or would it also work in places in Europe and Africa where there has been human habitation for hundreds of thousands of years?

In the absence of any verification, your experience is an amusing dinner party anecdote. Nothing more.

Yes lionking it happens everywhere and anyone can do it.
You just have to be in the right frame of mind.
And that frame of mind is the hardest to achieve,....... no thought.

None of the endless mind chatter that pervades most of our lives, just the stillness of the now. I don't get it often, but in the right place and time it produces some wonderful results.

And no, I am not a full blood aborigine, in fact I am pretty certain there is no aboriginal blood in my family. A little Maori perhaps, a lot of Celt, and a touch of Norman. Pure bred mongerl.

[buzz lightyear]

No, buzz. I believe that I can safely say that this has never happened to me. Has it occurred to you that it may just be your overactive imagination?

Wow arthwollipot, that was just about a case of synchronized posting!

COOL

[Mashuna]

Yes lionking it happens everywhere and anyone can do it.
You just have to be in the right frame of mind.
And that frame of mind is the hardest to achieve,....... no thought.


Maybe if you came out of that particular frame of mind before you posted, you'd have more success?

[The Fool]

The blood flow control to me is beyond normal and any thing outside "normal" gets called woo or impossible.

I would call it imaginary rather than beyond normal. Please show a single shred of evidence to back up this laughable claim.

[TjW]

The blood flow control to me is beyond normal and any thing outside "normal" gets called woo or impossible. Doesn't that apply to six sense abilities and get renamed the occult.? After all what is the occult?, isn't it doing things out side the square. Water witching and burnt at the stake comes to mind with Fizz screaming "Burn the crazy" with ch. 7 filming. (what a sick bunch)

No. The occult deals with things outside the "natural" laws of physics. (That's why it's called the "super-natural".)

If anything has a scientifically explainable basis, it is not "occult" or "super-natural".

Also, this points out once again the uselessness of the occult. If it only works for "real full bloods", what's the point? If true, it's a neat physiological adaptation, but useless for anyone else. A sleeping bag works for everyone. They don't have to believe in it, they just have to get inside.

[arthwollipot]

Wow arthwollipot, that was just about a case of synchronized posting!

COOLDeja vu. The unnerving sensation that you have been somewhere, or done something, before.

[Old Bob]

I know this is a waste of time, but I'll tell it anyway, Some may under stand. My daughter went to England and stood looking down into a valley cluttered with houses, she was describing how it was to her friend only to be over heard by a local. The local said come with me and took her to a medieval painting of the scene she stated. She had never been overseas in this life time. One for Buzz.

[lionking]

Yeah, more gold plated evidence. For once you have said something factual. It is a waste of time.

[lionking]

Deja vu. The unnerving sensation that you have been somewhere, or done something, before.

Actually there may be something to this wolli. Deja Vu by CS&N has just started playing on my ipod. Coincidence or fate.........we will never know.

[buzz lightyear]

Actually there may be something to this wolli. Deja Vu by CS&N has just started playing on my ipod. Coincidence or fate.........we will never know.

Morphic Resonance maybe? :D


http://www.sheldrake.org/papers/Morphic/morphic_intro.html

[lionking]

Maybe, but why is eminem now playing?

Anyway, this is as far from the OP as possible. Anything more need to be said about Fitzy?

[buzz lightyear]

Anyway, this is as far from the OP as possible. Anything more need to be said about Fitzy?

Aw Jeez, its been good wandering all over the place with this thread, do we have to go back to talking about old bullet brain.

Couldn't we do someone slightly more interesting like, say, Dame Edna or even Barry Hall, anything but Fitzy.

[Old Bob]

Fitzy on my no feed list when things get bad. Let him eat that pig skin he loved chasing around. Perhaps Little Johnie will look after him.

[Old Bob]

Also, this points out once again the uselessness of the occult. If it only works for "real full bloods", what's the point? If true, it's a neat physiological adaptation, but useless for anyone else. A sleeping bag works for everyone. They don't have to believe in it, they just have to get inside.

Who said "the occult only works for full bloods" out of context, the blood temp control was what was meant not all the occult as you fully know. Now the banter my be fun but what Buzz said I know is true. To under stand all this one needs to let go and have a spirit. A good way to train is to learn to dowse. Most of us are lucky spirit wise, but I would en bet on Fitzy. No spirit no dowse.

[politas]

I know this is a waste of time, but I'll tell it anyway, Some may under stand. My daughter went to England and stood looking down into a valley cluttered with houses, she was describing how it was to her friend only to be over heard by a local. The local said come with me and took her to a medieval painting of the scene she stated. She had never been overseas in this life time. One for Buzz.

Maybe she saw the painting in a book years ago and recognised the permanent landscape features subconsciously.

That seems far more likely. Or had your daughter also never seen any books?

[politas]

Now the banter my be fun but what Buzz said I know is true.What, the idiotic bit where he claimed Australia was a harsher climate than Antarctica?

I heartily doubt anyone could survive a night in the Antarctic by "slowing down their blood", no matter how "pure" their genes are.

[Moochie]

You have a long road ahead of you, as an Australian, if you want to know this land, politas.

And if one day you find yourself sitting in the red dust at Uluru with tears streaming down your cheeks you will begin to understand.

Your journey will have just begun.

A bit melodramatic there, aren't you?

I sit in the backyard of the little patch of Australia we bought and the tears just stream down my face, for the simple reason that the place is a shambles and I can't muster the wherewithal to get out the mower and other utensils to turn the "wilderness" into some semblance of a garden.

Color me procrastinated.


M.

[Moochie]

"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg." by Bjarne Stroustrup

"Women might be able to fake orgasms. But men can fake a whole relationship." by Sharon Stone

"I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it." by Groucho Marx

Now that we've got some random quotes out of the way, what has any of that got to do with debunking so-called psychics? Okay, maybe the Groucho Marx one is applicable to watching psychics at work.

What has Edward (or any other stage psychic) done that can't be explained (or hasn't been explained)? What exactly did Fitzsimons say that you disagree with? Anything?

Sorry to keep dragging this back on topic. Actually, not really.


Matronly Duchess, all in a flap: Why, I didn't come here to be insulted!

Groucho (as Hackenbush, I think): No? Where do you usually go?


M.


:sesorry: to further the derail.

[AndyD]

I know this is a waste of time, but I'll tell it anyway, Some may under stand. My daughter went to England and stood looking down into a valley cluttered with houses, she was describing how it was to her friend only to be over heard by a local. The local said come with me and took her to a medieval painting of the scene she stated. She had never been overseas in this life time. One for Buzz.

Let me get this straight... Your daughter was in England, looking at some houses in a valley. She described this scene to her friend (who was there with her? by phone? later at home?). Someone (a local of somewhere - England? Australia? Where?) overheard your daughter describing a valley with houses and then showed her a painting of a valley with houses and this is amazing...


...because there's only one painting in the world of a valley with houses
...because there's only one valley with houses in the world and someone painted it
...because she'd never travelled overseas so it's amazing that anyone ever built houses in valleys or painted pictures of them
...because the painting had survived a very long time
...because anecdotes are not usually as compelling as this one
...because your daughter was whispering and the man didn't look like he had good hearing
...because you think it is
...because your daughter followed a stranger who listens in on people's conversations
...because Buzz needs all the help he can get, even if it makes no sense


Please tick the correct answer then explain how this demolished Fitzsimons' call for the public denouncement of "psychics".

[Mashuna]

Let me get this straight... Your daughter was in England, looking at some houses in a valley. She described this scene to her friend (who was there with her? by phone? later at home?). Someone (a local of somewhere - England? Australia? Where?) overheard your daughter describing a valley with houses and then showed her a painting of a valley with houses and this is amazing...


...because there's only one painting in the world of a valley with houses
...because there's only one valley with houses in the world and someone painted it
...because she'd never travelled overseas so it's amazing that anyone ever built houses in valleys or painted pictures of them
...because the painting had survived a very long time
...because anecdotes are not usually as compelling as this one
...because your daughter was whispering and the man didn't look like he had good hearing
...because you think it is
...because your daughter followed a stranger who listens in on people's conversations
...because Buzz needs all the help he can get, even if it makes no sense


Please tick the correct answer then explain how this demolished Fitzsimons' call for the public denouncement of "psychics".

Ah, I remember when all this was just fields.

[wombatwal]

Ah, I remember when all this was just fields.

Ah, Mashuna, you must be "Full Blood" Welsh.

[buzz lightyear]

Ah, Mashuna, you must be "Full Blood" Welsh.
Did you say "full bodied" Welsh.
This is full bodied Welsh!
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:7njd5T39vkqxKM:http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/uploads/forums/kjenkinsms0505_468x417.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/uploads/forums/kjenkinsms0505_468x417.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t%3D87015.html&h=417&w=468&sz=44&hl=en&start=3&usg=__QEDRjY8sWNA3lbRuT5jn6twpaZQ=&tbnid=7njd5T39vkqxKM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcatherine%2Bjenkins%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3D en%26rls%3DDDAU,DDAU:2007-38,DDAU:en-GB%26sa%3DG)

And if you are as Welsh as this girl Mashuna I will gladly peel your onions under water.

[Old Bob]

AndyD & Mashuna, will try to spell it out. My daughter (Australian never been out of Australia) went to England with friend. Looked down into cluttered valley and described (to friend) a medieval scene. Which was over heard by a local who took her to see a very old painting. The painting was exactly what she said. Now if that's not psychic what is? She was remembering a past life. Do you play football Andy?

[Brian-M]

Couldn't we do someone slightly more interesting like, say, Dame Edna or even Barry Hall, anything but Fitzy.


Why not do both? We can ask ourselves who would win in a fight. Dame Edna or Peter Fitzsimons? :catfight:

After all, this thread is already thoroughly derailed, and you seem determined to push it further. :dig:

[AndyD]

AndyD & Mashuna, will try to spell it out. My daughter (Australian never been out of Australia) went to England with friend. Looked down into cluttered valley and described (to friend) a medieval scene.

Ahh, so when you said she "stood looking down into a valley cluttered with houses", she was actually just looking into a valley and describing something in her head?

Which was over heard by a local who took her to see a very old painting. The painting was exactly what she said.

Exactly? Can you define "exactly" in this instance? Are we talking specific buildings in precise locations, roads, activities?

Now if that's not psychic what is?

Maybe nothing. Is she as inclined to belief as you are? Maybe she post-fit the data as many believers clearly do.

I recall one specific reading on episode one of "The One" (Oz TV) where Ezio De Angelis managed a few correct hits in a row (from the edited version we saw) and said to the woman sitter "you're on fire my sweet!" - a typical throw-away line that has nothing whatsoever to do with fire. The woman replied "we actually did have a fire". Ezio correctly laughed off this correlation since it was obvious he never claimed to have seen a fire. However, in the post-reading interview, the woman said she was amazed how he got so many things right "the new car, THE FIRE and the renovations". She was so desperate to fit the psychic data she was accepting hits where none existed.

There were many other examples of misses and non-guesses being claimed as hits by the sitters in the five episodes. Belief is a powerful drug it would seem.

She was remembering a past life.

Or past movies, or books or paintings. I can picture a valley filled with dinosaurs, it doesn't mean I was around when they roamed Earth.

Maybe she wasn't remembering a past life but was remote viewing the painting, or reading the stranger's thoughts or picking up the energies of the spirits who had lived in that village or maybe she's time-travelled to this place before or maybe her thoughts "attracted" (LOA style) the painting into being or maybe the medieval artist saw into the future, saw her describing this scene then painted it - maybe she's not the one with the gift after all? How do you determine which paranormal possibility to apply when there's no evidence for any of them?

[Cuddles]

never been out of Australia ... went to England

Given that you're telling a story about her being in England, how exactly is the "never been out of Australia" part supposed to be relevant? Are you trying to imply that she could never have seen a valley before or something? Since you're claiming that she perfectly described something from several hundred years ago, why would it matter if she'd left Australia before? She could have lived in England all her life and it still wouldn't have been possible for her to have seen it hundreds of years ago. Do you just enjoy stressing irrelevant nonsense as part of your stories, or were you actually trying to make a point and failing miserably?

Ahh, so when you said she "stood looking down into a valley cluttered with houses", she was actually just looking into a valley and describing something in her head?

Well, given that this was England, it's entirely possible that the houses and roads would be in exactly the same place as they were in medieval times. It often seems that many Australians, Americans and people from other recently colonised places don't understand just what it's like living somewhere with a long history. There aren't just a few ruins to remember past times, there are useable, working buildings dating from the Vikings and even the Romans. Medieval is nothing.

Look at valley. Replace road with dirt track. Remove a few obviously new houses. Replace roofs with thatch (if they're already thatch, bonus). Hey presto! Medieval valley.

[tyr_13]

I think we are all forgetting a major hole in this being psychic; the guy that led her to the painting. This can't be claimed to be psychic because if she had described a different scene, this man could have just taken her to a different painting that matched what she said.

It is really, really stretching to call it psychic for someone to match a painting to a description.

And no Old, you can't travel to England without hearing a little about it's past, if from no other source than tourists on the plane.

[Old Bob]

Well as usual a tiny bit of the story is distorted and possibilities are put forward that sound like OJ court case. If all history is treated the same and I think much is, what a mess. I can see it's no good starting on the hologram reality, which is fun to try to explore, but that's another one of those wacky mind things. Psychic stuff is open to cons, smart guys and dreamers but some is way beyond the so call law(restrains) of the world we think we live in. Consider this, we only see a tiny bit of the light spectrum, same for all the body sensors, what about the rest? More full bodied Welsh pictures please.

[arthwollipot]

More full bodied Welsh pictures please.I think this is the most intelligible thing you've said so far, Bob.

[AndyD]

Consider this, we only see a tiny bit of the light spectrum,

Which proves that Fitzsimons has obviously managed to break through that partial blindness and can see frauds a mile off. Thanks for clearing that up.

[buzz lightyear]

More full bodied Welsh pictures please.

Glad you liked the Welsh girl Old Bob. Her name is Catherine Jenkins and she is more than just.............interesting.

You see my trip is harmonics. I use them the same way the aboriginals did. To enter the outer worlds.
Occasionally I can hit and hold a note like this girl can, and when I do "hallelujah" I can talk to the gods.

So if you want to know what it sounds like when the time gates open just have a listen to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp2Njyd9678

Anyway I have been chewing over the story about your daughter.

Could be a couple of things.

Maybe the Rupert Sheldrake "collective conscious" thing happened.
Your daughter tapped into a species memory.

Or perhaps time isn't as linear as we would like to think.
Maybe it is layered like Mashuna's onion. So at the right spots at the right time the layers become transparent allowing sight back into the past.

Whatever,.......... it does happen. Unfortunately not on demand, otherwise it would be possible to knock off old Jimmy's million quite easily.

Lord knows I could do with the dough, gotta put a new rear crankshaft seal in my landcruiser.

[politas]

AndyD & Mashuna, will try to spell it out. My daughter (Australian never been out of Australia) went to England with friend. Looked down into cluttered valley and described (to friend) a medieval scene. Which was over heard by a local who took her to see a very old painting. The painting was exactly what she said. Now if that's not psychic what is? She was remembering a past life. Do you play football Andy?

Or, like I said earlier, she may have seen a reproduction of that exact painting (or a similar painting by a different artist of the same scene) in a book years ago, and unconsciously remembered it due to the similarities or permanent geography in the modern scene. This seems far more likely than "remembering a past life".

That's not even counting the confirmation bias issue of her description matching the painting "close enough" to be considered "exactly what she said". People's memories aren't good enough to be able to say that unless her description was recorded, and contained a great amount of detail.

I also find it difficult to believe that she described the scene exactly as it would appear in a "medieval painting". Medieval landscape paintings are known for a lack of proper perspective; the technical aspects of drawing landscapes were not considered as important in medieval times.

[Cuddles]

Or, like I said earlier, she may have seen a reproduction of that exact painting (or a similar painting by a different artist of the same scene) in a book years ago, and unconsciously remembered it due to the similarities or permanent geography in the modern scene. This seems far more likely than "remembering a past life".

Hell, she could have seen that exact painting on the same holiday. Where exactly was it? In an art gallery? Hidden in the basement with no stairs or lights in a locked filing cabinet behind a warning saying "Beware of the tiger!"? On the wall in a pub? Pretty much every non-chain pub I've been in has pictures of the local area of varying age. Unless she was blindfolded immediately after getting off the plane and was driven straight to that valley, it would be almost impossible for her not to have seen a similar picture.

[AndyD]

I also find it difficult to believe that she described the scene exactly as it would appear in a "medieval painting". Medieval landscape paintings are known for a lack of proper perspective;

Actually, I think a lack of proper perspective is a distinct possibility all round in that story.

Frankly, I think Fitzsimons made more sense than anything in that addled and ham-fisted anecdote. See how I dragged in back on topic again?

What's next Buzz? Something about rabbits maybe, or the Arlington National Cemetery? Perhaps a tale about the time you rode a minotaur? (Topics selected from here (http://www.bleb.org/random/))

[buzz lightyear]

Actually, I think a lack of proper perspective is a distinct possibility all round in that story.

Frankly, I think Fitzsimons made more sense than anything in that addled and ham-fisted anecdote. See how I dragged in back on topic again?

What's next Buzz? Something about rabbits maybe, or the Arlington National Cemetery? Perhaps a tale about the time you rode a minotaur? (Topics selected from here (http://www.bleb.org/random/))


Aw shuks, AndyD, I got a whole darn swag of good old yarns.

We might be "off topic" but look what has happened. Your pointless story about Fitzy has turned into an epic.
Even has the moderator stamp of approval via Cuddles participation.

By the way did I ever tell you the story about the time I channelled an interstellar alien pilot. I was in this servo and suddenly I thought "sulphur in the fuel, I can smell sulphur in the exhaust emissions" and................................

[Seanrmr]

The sulphur wouldn't have happened to be from the diesel. Which contains sulphur normally not much of a suprirse.

Frankly, I think Fitzsimons made more sense than anything in that addled and ham-fisted anecdote. See how I dragged in back on topic again?
I agree

[Old Bob]

Buzz, you drive the right truck, what else is there but a Landcruiser. I had no idea that my daughter would have cheated so much about the medieval scene. Wonder if she even went to England? Do you lot think that's the whole story and the only one on odd things. Sent a private message to you Buzz, have a look.

[Brian-M]

I had no idea that my daughter would have cheated so much about the medieval scene. Wonder if she even went to England? Do you lot think that's the whole story and the only one on odd things.


Nobody's saying she's deliberately deceiving anyone. All we're doing is pointing out how easy it is for someone to unintentionally convince themselves of something that isn't true.

She describes what she thinks the valley may have once looked like, and someone overhearing the description shows her a similar painting of how the valley once looked.

That's all fair enough.

But you're concluding from this that she had some kind of psychic connection to the land. We're not trying to say she's deceiving you, only that it doesn't seem in any way psychic to us.

If anyone is deceiving you, it's yourself.

[buzz lightyear]

The sulphur wouldn't have happened to be from the diesel. Which contains sulphur normally not much of a suprirse.



No Seanrmr the sulphur was from unleaded, which I believe contains only traces.
This is why I found the incident interesting.

I was returning from on of my ventures into the outworld, and the way I detect if I have pick up any odd entities is the variations in the way I perceive the world.
This entity had the ability to analyse fuel by the odour it emitted when burnt.
Never before had I been able to detect burnt sulphur in fuel but can now.

Now where were we??

Ah yes Fitzy's recent trip to medieval England, yes.:rolleyes:

[AndyD]

Do you lot think that's the whole story and the only one on odd things.

Oh, I am absolutely certain it isn't your one and only story of strange things that happen. I am also certain that when people ask you questions, like how you determined which paranormal option to apply, you won't answer. A bit like the Sunrise crew refusing to give Fitzsimons a straight answer eh?

No Seanrmr the sulphur was from unleaded, which I believe contains only traces.
This is why I found the incident interesting.

It contains enough to make hydrogen sulphide that you can smell from four or five car lengths away. Hardly insignificant.

[buzz lightyear]

A bit like the Sunrise crew refusing to give Fitzsimons a straight answer eh?
Well "flush my dunny" thats what we were talking about, old bone head Fitzy and the Sunrise crew!

Fitzy and the Sunrise crew;
Fitzy and the Sunrise crew;

Fitzy and the Sunrise crew;

Must........ r..e..m...b...e...r.

[Mobyseven]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Uluru_sunset1141.jpg

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words...

[Robin]

Peter Fitzsimmons? Knox Grammar old boy with an arts degree from Sydney University majoring in political science. Speaks French, Italian and Spanish and has written a number of books, many of them bestsellers but also highly regarded by critics.

Yep, a real meat-head.

[Brian-M]

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words...
Only when it has a 3.906kb file-size.
Then it's literally worth a thousand words (http://www.cs.uaf.edu/~cs301/notes/Chapter2/node2.html) . :D

[arthwollipot]

I also find it difficult to believe that she described the scene exactly as it would appear in a "medieval painting". Medieval landscape paintings are known for a lack of proper perspective; the technical aspects of drawing landscapes were not considered as important in medieval times.I think the term "medieval" was used in ignorance to mean "really old", rather than in its technical sense. The painting was probably renaissance or later, especially if the scene it depicted was recognisable.

[buzz lightyear]

It contains enough to make hydrogen sulphide that you can smell from four or five car lengths away. Hardly insignificant.

Well AndyD, I may not be an organic chemist but last time I looked it was sulphur dioxide comming out of a cars exhaust pipe.

Hydrogen Sulphide is "rotten egg" gas, the stuff that oozes out of swamps.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I cant be bothered looking it up.

But hey, its your thread you can have whatever sort of bad smell you want. ;)

[arthwollipot]

Hydrogen sulphide is made in cars that don't have catalytic converters installed. Usually older cars that were manufactured at around the time that unleaded petrol was first made available. Some of us are old enough to remember how rotten-eggy the streets smelled at that time.

[Old Bob]

AndyD, you say I don't answer questions on psyhic stuff. how does one go about explaining when you knock the simple stuff? If I said we have spoken with a alien entity would you believe me,no I don't think so. I don't have the way to explain a voice in one's mind or how my daughter can see past scenes. Or a spirit guide telling us not to buy that lot of cheese because the plastic has leached into it. As for looking up to people who have letters after their name, I could use your tactic and say maybe they bought them on the net or just made it up. Anyway most are a waste of time and letters after your name won't feed you or teach you how to live out west as we may have to as things go to hell. Like I said earlier Fitz and his lot won't get feed by me. Mainly because he joined the freedom takers by being anti gun, funny isn't it when he writes about honor and war. Still a meat head to me.

[arthwollipot]

:nope:

[tyr_13]

Wait, so you base his being a 'meathead' on him holding a different view on guns than you? You don't trust his degree because degrees can be faked, yet psychic stuff being faked too isn't an argument against that?

Fitz's resume is far more than his degree(s) as was laid out already in this thread.

Doublespeak BA working out for you?

[Old Bob]

Wait, so you base his being a 'meathead' on him holding a different view on guns than you? You don't trust his degree because degrees can be faked, yet psychic stuff being faked too isn't an argument against that?

Fitz's resume is far more than his degree(s) as was laid out already in this thread.

Doublespeak BA working out for you?

I speak one language does that count, and yes all manner of thing can be fake. Why are footballers so important, I would think a wheat farmer or any producer Truckee or distributor would rate far higher because they have done something. Chase a pig skin and mouth off in different tongues and your a wise gov. guiding talking head. These people are unnessary like most shiny bum pen pushers.

[Mashuna]

I speak one language does that count, and yes all manner of thing can be fake. Why are footballers so important, I would think a wheat farmer or any producer Truckee or distributor would rate far higher because they have done something. Chase a pig skin and mouth off in different tongues and your a wise gov. guiding talking head. These people are unnessary like most shiny bum pen pushers.

I think you're doing yourself down here, Old Bob. You say you speak one language, and you're obviously learning English too. So well done.

[arthwollipot]

I speak one language does that count, and yes all manner of thing can be fake. Why are footballers so important, I would think a wheat farmer or any producer Truckee or distributor would rate far higher because they have done something. Chase a pig skin and mouth off in different tongues and your a wise gov. guiding talking head. These people are unnessary like most shiny bum pen pushers.While I agree that footballers and cricketers are grossly overpaid, I think you misunderstand the role of shiny bum pen pushers in the operation of the country. In fact, the wheat farmer would not be able to farm and harvest his wheat if it weren't for the shiny bum pen pushers in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. The trucker would not be able to truck that wheat to the refineries without the shiny bum pen pushers of the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government. They wouldn't be able to export the wheat to China without the shiny bum pen pushers of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. And what's more, the shiny bum pen pushers make up a tiny part of the workforce of the country, yet without them the country would collapse into anarchy.

The shiny bum pen pushers are the folks who make this country work. Don't you be disrespecting the shiny bum pen pushers.

[Old Bob]

You must be one? Once we had one pen pusher to seven workers, now its about even. Also that was before the labour saving computers so now you know who to blame for the mess we are in. It's your fault. Either computers are a hindrance or pen pushers are bludgers. Love buro-craps.

[tyr_13]

I speak one language does that count, and yes all manner of thing can be fake. Why are footballers so important, I would think a wheat farmer or any producer Truckee or distributor would rate far higher because they have done something. Chase a pig skin and mouth off in different tongues and your a wise gov. guiding talking head. These people are unnessary like most shiny bum pen pushers.

If any of them wrote articulate, well researched books, spent years in university, and has demonstrated superior reasoning skills, then sure, they would rate the same. But I know a lot of moron farmers and truck drivers too, so I don't know why they would automatically rate higher than football players.

Wait, let me guess, you are one. That is why you think their opinion would matter more.

[buzz lightyear]

If any of them wrote articulate, well researched books, spent years in university, and has demonstrated superior reasoning skills, then sure, they would rate the same. But I know a lot of moron farmers and truck drivers too, so I don't know why they would automatically rate higher than football players.

Wait, let me guess, you are one. That is why you think their opinion would matter more.

Well tyr, if I wanted an opinion on the real world I would ask someone who spent most of their time observing the real world.

If I wanted an opinion on the inside of an office or what computer screen was best I would ask a "shiny ass".

You spend your life looking at the seasons, the weather, the soil, the trees, the animals, life and death as most farmers do, you get a good grip on the reality that we live in.

And if you have a look at these "observers of reality" you will see that they are beginning to acknowledge Bio dynamic Farming as a solution to the degradation of their lands.

And guess what tyr, its a system of land management with its foundations in the "occult".

So do the maths, tyr:

Meat head shoots his mouth off about something he knows nothing about = forget it.
Farmer says their is more to it than meets the eye = take notice.

And Old Bob, thanks for the PM, good to meet someone with similar views.

But as a holder of a NSW class A, B Firearms licence I have to disagree with you on recent changes to the gun laws.

There is no place in our society for for firearms except in the hands of those who are trained, competent and of good character. They are not a toy for idiots to have "fun" with on weekends.
Or a potential death threat in the wardrobe when dad comes home drunk, or the son want to show off in front of his mates.

Sorry old cobber have to disagree with you on that one.

[tyr_13]

Well tyr, if I wanted an opinion on the real world I would ask someone who spent most of their time observing the real world.

If I wanted an opinion on the inside of an office or what computer screen was best I would ask a "shiny ass".

You spend your life looking at the seasons, the weather, the soil, the trees, the animals, life and death as most farmers do, you get a good grip on the reality that we live in.

And if you have a look at these "observers of reality" you will see that they are beginning to acknowledge Bio dynamic Farming as a solution to the degradation of their lands.

And guess what tyr, its a system of land management with its foundations in the "occult".

So do the maths, tyr:

Meat head shoots his mouth off about something he knows nothing about = forget it.
Farmer says their is more to it than meets the eye = take notice.


You're simply wrong on more than one level. Scientists are consummate observers and testers of reality and they (90+% of them anyway) agree with the 'meathead'. So you are wrong that farmers have an monopoly on knowledge of 'reality'. Farmers spend a lot of time observing one small part of reality for the most part (although there are a ton of scientist-farmers). Farms would have a good grasp on, as you put it, "the seasons, the weather, the soil, the trees, the animals," as you say, but in what world does that relate to 'psychic' scam artist?

You're wrong on biodynamics being based in the 'occult'. The 'occult' of it was all the parts of tradition that turned out to be completely useless. Researchers (many of them farmers, many of them 'shiny asses') determined, and are still determining, what works.

You're wrong assuming Fitz knows nothing about these 'psychic' scam artists. He shows that he knows at least the basics. This has been gone over in this thread already. You can just reread.

You're wrong to assume that farmers know better about psychic effects than anyone else. There is no more a tie to what they do than what most other jobs do with the 'occult'.

And don't try to accuse me of not understanding farmers and the land. That's a stupid road to go down. I have pictures.

[arthwollipot]

You must be one?No, I work in private industry. But I do work in Canberra, so you've got me there.

[buzz lightyear]

Farms would have a good grasp on, as you put it, "the seasons, the weather, the soil, the trees, the animals," as you say, but in what world does that relate to 'psychic' scam artist?

You're wrong assuming Fitz knows nothing about these 'psychic' scam artists. He shows that he knows at least the basics. This has been gone over in this thread already. You can just reread.

You're wrong to assume that farmers know better about psychic effects than anyone else. There is no more a tie to what they do than what most other jobs do with the 'occult'.

And don't try to accuse me of not understanding farmers and the land. That's a stupid road to go down. I have pictures.

Well tyr 13, we seem to be going around in circles aren't we.

But what we have learned, is that Fitzy has never been to a Psychic so he has no first hand experience, OK!
And from what we know of Fitzy there is nothing to suggest that he knows anything of the occult.

So where the **** does he get the facts that he bases his opinions from?

Ill give you a guess.
Second hand info from a website............like derr :o

Give me a break!

But I suppose he too could have the "pictures" ????????????:confused:

[Sideroxylon]

Well tyr 13, we seem to be going around in circles aren't we.

But what we have learned, is that Fitzy has never been to a Psychic so he has no first hand experience, OK!
And from what we know of Fitzy there is nothing to suggest that he knows anything of the occult.

So where the **** does he get the facts that he bases his opinions from?

Ill give you a guess.
Second hand info from a website............like derr :o

Give me a break!

But I suppose he too could have the "pictures" ????????????:confused:

I haven't had to part with my hard earned to see a psychic in order to come to the conclusion they are frauds - they are unconvincing enough on the TV, even with all the selective editing advantage it often affords.

[lionking]

Buzz, firstly, how do you know he has never been to a psychic? Secondly, are you suggesting that you have to have the first hand experience of cutting your arm off to know it would be painful?

Now, please provide just a little bit of evidence that psychics do what they claim to. Otherwise give us a break.

[buzz lightyear]

I haven't had to part with my hard earned to see a psychic in order to come to the conclusion they are frauds - they are unconvincing enough on the TV, even with all the selective editing advantage it often affords.


Mate, as it has been said to me "this is a skeptic forum and if you want to spout off then present some PROOF".

So if AndyD wants to put old numb nut Fitzy up as someone to be listened to on matters of psychics, then give me the "proof" that he knows what he is talking about.

Did you see that word ................."proof"..... its a double edged sword.

[Sideroxylon]

Buzz, firstly, how do you know he has never been to a psychic?

As I remember from the clip, he admitted he had not when questioned.

[Sideroxylon]

Mate, as it has been said to me "this is a skeptic forum and if you want to spout off then present some PROOF".

So if AndyD wants to put old numb nut Fitzy up as someone to be listened to on matters of psychics, then give me the "proof" that he knows what he is talking about.

Did you see that word ................."proof"..... its a double edged sword.

We are not the ones making the extraordinary claims. Those who say psychic powers exist must provide the evidence. I have looked for it but only found people playing guessing games, amongst other cheap trickery.

[lionking]

Mate, as it has been said to me "this is a skeptic forum and if you want to spout off then present some PROOF".

So if AndyD wants to put old numb nut Fitzy up as someone to be listened to on matters of psychics, then give me the "proof" that he knows what he is talking about.

Did you see that word ................."proof"..... its a double edged sword.

Oh that's rich. The implication is that we should listen to you because you know what you are talking about.

Proof please. Put up or shut up.

[buzz lightyear]

Oh that's rich. The implication is that we should listen to you because you know what you are talking about.

Proof please. Put up or shut up.

Sorry lionking, you seem to have that wrong. It is the person making the claim who requires the proof.
In this case it is AndyD making the claim.

The claims that I have made on this forum I have backed up with proof.
In fact my aim in posting them on this forum was to check the validity of this "proof".

So far the claims that I have made have stood up quite well.

Whether this is still the case, when and if The Atheist comes good at my invitation to venture through the gates of hell, only time will tell.

[lionking]

So you are asking AndyD to prove psychics are full of crap? Jeez, how many times does "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" need to be repeated?

So come on, where is your proof of the validity/accuracy of psychics? So far all you have come up with is some vague reference to "the occult".

And please understand, that if it can be proven that psychics can talk to the dead or predict the future, I would be overcome with joy.

I am certain this is not the case. Please prove me wrong (with or without the "help" of Old Bob).

[wombatwal]

Sorry lionking, you seem to have that wrong. It is the person making the claim who requires the proof.
In this case it is AndyD making the claim.

The claims that I have made on this forum I have backed up with proof.
In fact my aim in posting them on this forum was to check the validity of this "proof".

So far the claims that I have made have stood up quite well.

Whether this is still the case, when and if The Atheist comes good at my invitation to venture through the gates of hell, only time will tell.

I don't think AndyD is claiming anything, he has just linked to a video of interest.

[wombatwal]

The only one claiming anything I think is Buzzy saying that Fitzy is a meathead.

[zooterkin]

Don't forget Old Bob claiming his daughter is psychic and remembered past lives (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4138324&postcount=109), and Buzz was channeling a space alien (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4145053&postcount=137)...

[buzz lightyear]

The only one claiming anything I think is Buzzy saying that Fitzy is a meathead.

And for that claim I have undeniable proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNYIOz-qOdY

Pure 100% unadulterated meathead.

[lionking]

You are now trolling, nothing more. Why repeat the OP, which wasn't yours in the first place?

Care to offer any evidence for psychics?

Didn't think so.

Meathead? Look in the mirror.

[zooterkin]

And for that claim I have undeniable proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNYIOz-qOdY

Pure 100% unadulterated meathead.

You're obviously using a different definition of 'meathead' than the rest of us. If that's what he is, then I'd be proud to be called a 'meathead' too.

[Old Bob]

Arthwollipot, my apologies for thinking you were a lazy shiny bum sponging off the workers of Australia. Just watched Fitz display of stupidity on channel 7. The stupid-------hasn't got the brains to understand or at least say. "I'm not sure about that". We are all entitled to believe what we think is true. But to rudely ram op ions down some one Else's throat leaves one word, "Meat head."

[lionking]

People can believe in Santa too. Without evidence, well repeat of post #177.

[George152]

[QUOTE=buzz lightyear;4151593]Well tyr 13, we seem to be going around in circles aren't we.

But what we have learned, is that Fitzy has never been to a Psychic so he has no first hand experience, OK!

You don't have to get into a sewer to find out what its contents are

[wombatwal]

That meathead Fitzy is at it again.
In his column in the Sun Herald today, he talks of new advertising that is going up on London buses saying "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life".
These adverts are being paid for by a few people and one of those is Richard Dawkins.
Fitzy agrees with it. He must be a meathead.:D:D

[tyr_13]

Removed part of derail.

But wait! You make another claim. That Fitz gets his information from websites. 1.) Proof? 2.) So? 3.) Where do you get yours? (I can think of some likely places, but for civilities sake I won't say them.)

We will not give you a break. We will hold you to the same standard as everyone else. Your opinion's aren't worth the electrons they are encoded with without backup.

'Because farmers say so,' is not backup. It's just silly.

[Cuddles]

Keep to the topic. For those who were wondering, the topic is not civil service, homosexuality, general evidence for psychics, Old Bob or insults and bickering.

[lionking]

When it became clear that large sections of this thread would go to AAH, I did start responding a bit, er, robustly. Apologies to AndyD for being part of the derail of your thread.

I still like Fitzy.

[arthwollipot]

Keep to the topic. For those who were wondering, the topic is not civil service, homosexuality, general evidence for psychics, Old Bob or insults and bickering.About time too. :D

[Damien Evans]

Keep to the topic. For those who were wondering, the topic is not civil service, homosexuality, general evidence for psychics, Old Bob or insults and bickering.

Can't say I didn't see that coming.

[politas]

In the video, Fitzy does not come across to me as someone rudely ramming opinions down Kochies throat. He doesn't challenge any of the others in the same way he targets Kochie. It came across to me like he knew exactly what Kochie's real opinion about psychics was, and was annoyed at Kochie for his spineless equivocating on camera.

[Mobyseven]

No, I work in private industry. But I do work in Canberra...

Finally, SOMEBODY who works in Canberra! ;)

[Sideroxylon]

In the video, Fitzy does not come across to me as someone rudely ramming opinions down Kochies throat. He doesn't challenge any of the others in the same way he targets Kochie. It came across to me like he knew exactly what Kochie's real opinion about psychics was, and was annoyed at Kochie for his spineless equivocating on camera.

That's my take as well.