Obama's ACORN buddies in Ohio

[kallsop]

1 VOTER, 72 REGISTRATIONS (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102008/news/politics/1_voter__72_registrations_132965.htm)

"'ACORN PAID ME IN CASH & CIGS'"

There was another thread pondering if there was going to be fraud in Ohio.

You don't have to look too hard :mad:

Changing hope and whatever.

[Oliver]

1 VOTER, 72 REGISTRATIONS (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102008/news/politics/1_voter__72_registrations_132965.htm)

"'ACORN PAID ME IN CASH & CIGS'"

There was another thread pondering if there was going to be fraud in Ohio.

You don't have to look too hard :mad:

Changing hope and whatever.


Oh snap. What's next? He will invade countries and kill hundreds of thousand
innocents?

Seriously: Please point out the connection between ACORN and Obama
other than:

ACORN endorsed the candidacy of Barack Obama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama) during the 2008 Democratic Presidential Primary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Democratic_Presidential_Primary).[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_ Now#cite_note-61) Obama's campaign paid an ACORN affiliate, Citizens Services Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Citizens_Services_Inc.&action=edit&redlink=1) $800,000 for "get-out-the-vote" projects for his 2008 presidential primary campaign.[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_ Now#cite_note-62) Obama's campaign stated that it is not working with ACORN for the general presidential election, and "is committed to protecting the integrity of the voting process."[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_ Now#cite_note-cnn-indiana-47) Obama's campaign had also put out a release denying associations with ACORN. [64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_ Now#cite_note-63)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_ Now#Barack_Obama

[Oliver]

Also:

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/20/acornrumor

[T.A.M.]

straws anyone?

TAM;)

[Whiplash]

You say strawman, I say denial man.

[dirtywick]

haha for cigarettes, that's ridiculous

[T.A.M.]

You say strawman, I say denial man.

actually, I meant "grasping at", but funny enough, your point would still make sense...lol

TAM:)

[Oliver]

You say strawman, I say denial man.


No one denies that the Republicans are desperately and quite
obviously grasping at straws. :)

ETA: *Shakingfistsattamforbeingfaster*

[JoeTheJuggler]

So these are Obama's "buddies" because they're pro-Obama?

Who are most members of the Klan for in this election? I suppose you'd consider those guys to be McCain's buddies, kallsop?

[DavidJames]

Another thread from a McCain supporter about.....Obama :rolleyes:

[dudalb]

Even if true, it's not like the GOP is above such shennigans.
I will keep on saying it: Both parties will bend and twist election laws in their favor if they think they can get away with it.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Even if true, it's not like the GOP is above such shennigans.
I will keep on saying it: Both parties will bend and twist election laws in their favor if they think they can get away with it.

For the record, ACORN is not the Democratic Party.

[UserGoogol]

Although this is certainly problematic (and not very linked to Obama directly), at least according to this Talking Points Memo entry (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/223436.php), (and admittedly, they are a liberal blog so they have their biases) ACORN pays people to register people to vote, and so it is rather likely that the fraud took place on the individual level of people trying to rip off ACORN rather than a top-down scheme taken place to get Obama into office. Additionally, it requires a certain amount of effort to take advantage of false names, since you have to get people to actually show up as those additional names, which is significantly harder than bribing people with cigarettes.

[MattusMaximus]

Even if true, it's not like the GOP is above such shennigans.
I will keep on saying it: Both parties will bend and twist election laws in their favor if they think they can get away with it.


Sad, but true. Let's all be honest & grown up enough to admit it, shall we?

**Goes back to having head in the clouds** :rolleyes:

[dudalb]

For the record, ACORN is not the Democratic Party.

True, but it impossible to deny there is a close relationship between them.

[Magyar]

Yup, and we know that McCain had an illegitimate black child in NC too. Right!?

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080128/banks

[leftysergeant]

Stop snivelling. Notice that the system is aware of and has not enrolled the phony applicants. That's a trifle compared to the numbers of legitimate voters eliminated from the rolls by dirtbags supreme Karl Rove, Katherine Harris and Ken Blackwell, Bush operatives, the lot of them.

[Puppycow]

Any large organization will have a few bad apples.

If a few employees of large companies in unrelated incidents commit a crime and are fired by the company, we usually don't blame the whole company (or we shouldn't). Acorn tells its employees not to do this, and fires them if they do it anyway. It is also required by law to submit all registration forms it receives, even those it thinks might be fraudulent, which it flags.

[gtc]

Another thread from a McCain supporter about.....Obama :rolleyes:

And how many threads are there about Palin started by Obama fans?

Noting this says nothing about whether the claims are true or false.

[MaGZ]

Oh snap. What's next? He will invade countries and kill hundreds of thousand
innocents?

Seriously: Please point out the connection between ACORN and Obama


Inside Obama's Acorn

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDZiMjkwMDczZWI5ODdjOWYxZTIzZGIyNzEyMjE0ODI=

[MaGZ]

So these are Obama's "buddies" because they're pro-Obama?

Who are most members of the Klan for in this election? I suppose you'd consider those guys to be McCain's buddies, kallsop?

You could ask at Stormfront. The are some Klan there, but mostly White Nationalists of various denominations.

The last few threads I remember seeing there involved the discussion of WN voting Third Party, perhaps the Constitution Party. Also, there are those who will vote for McCain only because they don’t want an Obama in the White House.

[MaGZ]

Even if true, it's not like the GOP is above such shennigans.
I will keep on saying it: Both parties will bend and twist election laws in their favor if they think they can get away with it.

ACORN is different. They represent a systematic attempt to steal the election for Obama. If Obama wins with ACORN’s ‘help’, Obama will never be seen as a legitimate president. The nation will be further divided along racial and political lines.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Inside Obama's Acorn

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDZiMjkwMDczZWI5ODdjOWYxZTIzZGIyNzEyMjE0ODI=

Same facts, different spin:

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/20/acornrumor

So his "connection" to ACORN is that he successfully represented ACORN in a lawsuit along with the U.S. Department of Justice against the state of Illinois.

Good thing Obama wasn't a criminal defense attorney, or you'd have him associated with all sorts of nefarious types!

[JoeTheJuggler]

ACORN is different. They represent a systematic attempt to steal the election for Obama.
You've got anything to back that up?

From what I've read, there's nothing to indicate any systematic fraud.

Also, if we're making comparisons, that whole Bush vs. Gore lawsuit where a partisan Supreme Court awarded the presidency to Bush seems like a more egregious problem with our election process.

[leftysergeant]

ACORN is different. They represent a systematic attempt to steal the election for Obama.

They can't steal the election by submitting testably false registrations that do not get on the rolls. Ken Blackwell stole the election for Bush by throwing out registration forms that he himself had sent out after declaring that they would only by accepted on heavy-weight paper. Thus, by your standards, Bush is an illegitimate president. Anyone elected in Ohio that year is, by the same standard, an illegitimate official.

If Obama wins with ACORN’s ‘help’, Obama will never be seen as a legitimate president.

ACORN has not registered enough people in Ohio to balance the ones that Blackwell screwed. A lot of them corrected the situation themselves. ACORN is not that big outside minority communities, and thus not a big enough factor to tip the nation.

Shriek about Rover and Blackwell, if you want to raise a point about election fraud or voter fraud.

[Freddy]

The thing about ACORN is I really don't think it's an attempt to "steal" the election. It's just individual canvassers trying to meet quotas. I think ACORN is creating perverse incentives by imposing quotas on its canvassers, but to use a recent example, I don't think anyone is going to try to impersonate the Dallas Cowboys and try to vote in Nevada.

[T.A.M.]

ACORN is different. They represent a systematic attempt to steal the election for Obama. If Obama wins with ACORN’s ‘help’, Obama will never be seen as a legitimate president. The nation will be further divided along racial and political lines.

In the eyes of a demented few perhaps. If this were going to be a big story, big enough to make an Obama victory seem "illegitimate", it would be all over by now...it is not.

Keep on dreaming.

TAM:)

[Nogbad]

Here is a mad idea - why not install a registration system not open to fraud?

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

Here is a mad idea - why not install a registration system not open to fraud?


Cite?

Samuel Johnson once said, "what the mind of man can set, the mind of man can solve."

In EOD school, our IED instructor (hi, sergeant Huffman!) phrased it, "ain't no one cain't be boobytrapped."

The problem with people in any kind of thing like public canvassing is that they all behave so... I dunno... humanly. Things are always going to get screwed up, either accidentally or intentionally, and for reasons that defy enumeration.

...and speaking as a nut-case conservative, one of the things that upsets me and the rest of my co-nutcase co-conservatives about Obama is his involvement with all these weird, liberal causes.

Imagine that: A liberal involved in liberal causes. Oh, the humanity!

Ah well - November will tell which way the wind blows.

[creativecritter41]

haha for cigarettes, that's ridiculous

Not really if you consider that alot of them are convicted felons, homeless, alcoholics and drug addicts.

I'm beginning to believe 2012 is going to turn out to be real because Obama followers could care less what is brought up about this man's scruples and will vote for him regardless..... :jaw-dropp

I always thought it was plain stupid to vote for the party and not the man.

[varwoche]

I'm beginning to believe 2012 is going to turn out to be real because Obama followers could care less what is brought up about this man's scruples and will vote for him regardless..... :jaw-dropp 2012? What in Odin's name does this mean?

[creativecritter41]

2012? What in Odin's name does this mean?

:D It's some theory that has been circulating for years that comes from the Mayan calendar. Supposedly the end is nigh. I never thought to take it seriously and often dogged ppl who did....

BUT.... I'm afraid of Obama taking place in our White House. I truly feel that he is hiding his true nature. I really don't think he's for the ppl especially non-Muslims and it will show after being in the White House for a few years. I don't think the world is going to end as we know it.. it's our freedom that I'm worried about. They want change alright. :eye-poppi

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

2012 is also the next time Charlie Manson is up for parole.

:D I wonder if there's a tie-in there... :D

[Tricky]

BUT.... I'm afraid of Obama taking place in our White House. I truly feel that he is hiding his true nature. I really don't think he's for the ppl especially non-Muslims and it will show after being in the White House for a few years. I don't think the world is going to end as we know it.. it's our freedom that I'm worried about. They want change alright. :eye-poppi
You think he'll restrict our freedom more than the Homeland Security Act (and its abuses) have done? You think he'll cause more Muslims to work against America than the attack on Iraq? You think he would increase the budget more than they have in the last eight years, six of them under complete Republican control of all three branches?

Somehow, I just have a hard time finding him scarier than what we've already been through.

[MaGZ]

:D It's some theory that has been circulating for years that comes from the Mayan calendar. Supposedly the end is nigh. I never thought to take it seriously and often dogged ppl who did....

BUT.... I'm afraid of Obama taking place in our White House. I truly feel that he is hiding his true nature. I really don't think he's for the ppl especially non-Muslims and it will show after being in the White House for a few years. I don't think the world is going to end as we know it.. it's our freedom that I'm worried about. They want change alright. :eye-poppi

I tend to agree Obama is very dangerous. He is a Marxist and the people who follow him into his administration will be like-minded. This movement has been waiting and working for this day since the 1920s and 1930s. It looks like they soon will have it. One question I have is how will the true patriots in our intelligence community and military services react to Obama’s radicalism?

Remember the political thriller Seven Days in May?

[MaGZ]

You think he'll restrict our freedom more than the Homeland Security Act (and its abuses) have done? You think he'll cause more Muslims to work against America than the attack on Iraq? You think he would increase the budget more than they have in the last eight years, six of them under complete Republican control of all three branches?

Somehow, I just have a hard time finding him scarier than what we've already been through.

I find Obama very scary and if he comes to power with his political opposition questioning his legitimacy, then the seeds of revolt will be sowed.

[hgc]

You could ask at Stormfront. The are some Klan there, but mostly White Nationalists of various denominations.


In other words - some Klan with hoods, but mostly Klan without hoods and a generous smattering of swastikas.

[Oliver]

I tend to agree Obama is very dangerous. He is a Marxist and the people who follow him into his administration will be like-minded. This movement has been waiting and working for this day since the 1920s and 1930s. It looks like they soon will have it. One question I have is how will the true patriots in our intelligence community and military services react to Obama’s radicalism?

Remember the political thriller Seven Days in May?


How is Obama dangerous? ...

Could you sum up the dangerous parts?

[creativecritter41]

Hi

2012 is also the next time Charlie Manson is up for parole.

:D I wonder if there's a tie-in there... :D

LOL! I wonder... :D

[Kestrel]

I find Obama very scary and if he comes to power with his political opposition questioning his legitimacy, then the seeds of revolt will be sowed.

We noticed that back when Clinton was President. The hate generated by right wingers inspired home grown terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph. Goons willing to blow up innocents for the cause. I expect similar incidents to happen during an Obama administration.

[varwoche]

:D It's some theory that has been circulating for years that comes from the Mayan calendar. Supposedly the end is nigh. I never thought to take it seriously and often dogged ppl who did.... Are you suggesting that you take it seriously now?

BUT.... I'm afraid of Obama taking place in our White House. I truly feel that he is hiding his true nature. I really don't think he's for the ppl especially non-Muslims and it will show after being in the White House for a few years. I don't think the world is going to end as we know it.. it's our freedom that I'm worried about. They want change alright. :eye-poppi This (especially the part I highlighted) impresses me as rank bigotry -- the same type of bigotry McCain was trying to tamp down recently (at least superficially). You can disabuse me of this impression by providing substantive evidence that your fears are founded.

[T.A.M.]

If Obama is a Marxist, then Canada is a socialist country. Obama, by Canadian standards, would be somewhere between Liberal and NDP (more towards Liberal). Far from a Marxist.

TAM:)

[MaGZ]

How is Obama dangerous? ...

Could you sum up the dangerous parts?

It looks like we will soon find out how dangerous.

[MaGZ]

In other words - some Klan with hoods, but mostly Klan without hoods and a generous smattering of swastikas.

Yeah, and toss a few Odinists into the mix and shake well.

[MaGZ]

Are you suggesting that you take it seriously now?

This (especially the part I highlighted) impresses me as rank bigotry -- the same type of bigotry McCain was trying to tamp down recently (at least superficially). You can disabuse me of this impression by providing substantive evidence that your fears are founded.

Obama is an atheist but one with a Muslim identity.
Do I really need to go over all of this again?

[creativecritter41]

You think he'll restrict our freedom more than the Homeland Security Act (and its abuses) have done? You think he'll cause more Muslims to work against America than the attack on Iraq? You think he would increase the budget more than they have in the last eight years, six of them under complete Republican control of all three branches?

Somehow, I just have a hard time finding him scarier than what we've already been through.

I think he do all of those things... I mean, he already says he is going to raise taxes on higher income, which, in my opinion, are the people that provide the jobs. He's vowed to spend billions already on some big plan so, yeah, I think he'll have no problem increasing the budget than the last eight years, heck, I think anyone that gets into the white house will do that. It seems to me, no way around it.

I think that the government has created a monster.. that monster being a bunch of spoiled babies that aren't satisfied with what we have.. aka, the American people. Not only do they not appreciate what we have they spit on it. I'm ashamed of that and a tad angry at that. Obama doesn't like America, from what I can see. His wife even admitted that she is, for the first time in her adult life proud of her country. WTF?.. I find that insulting. Is she proud now because her husband has finally got his foot stuck in the front door of the White House and she can taste what she really wants from this country?

I will admit this is the first year I've given my full attention to politics and have learned quite a bit. It certainly is a game of words and manipulations... on both sides. It has turned out to be quite the battle.. I also think that the Democrats want so much to be in control of everything they are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Anyways.. I'm a nobody, just giving my two cents today whilst doing laundry. :D

[quixotecoyote]

I don't think I've ever seen someone internalize EVERY talking point before..

[creativecritter41]

Are you suggesting that you take it seriously now?

This (especially the part I highlighted) impresses me as rank bigotry -- the same type of bigotry McCain was trying to tamp down recently (at least superficially). You can disabuse me of this impression by providing substantive evidence that your fears are founded.

You can think what you like about me, I have thick skin. I've formed my own opinion just by having a look at the Pastor Jeremiah Wright and Minister Farrakhan. I'm appalled at Mr. Wrights' blatant bigotry as well. You can bury your head in the sand about how Obama is not a Muslim, I just beg to differ.

Oh, about me taking the 2012 being taken seriously by myself. I'm damned close to. I'll give ya a shout out about it in a few years. :D

[creativecritter41]

I don't think I've ever seen someone internalize EVERY talking point before..

I don't get your point. I'm not as smart as you people on here.. can you break it down for my meager mind?

Thanks. :)

[varwoche]

You can bury your head in the sand about how Obama is not a Muslim, I just beg to differ. CC, I take it you're on that new fad diet that limits intake to foodstuffs consisting of Hook, Line and Sinker?

"I beg to differ" is your substantive evidence? This is a skeptical forum, not hannity.com.

Oh, about me taking the 2012 being taken seriously by myself. I'm damned close to. I'll give ya a shout out about it in a few years. :D When you say one thing and follow it with a laughing icon, it doesn't clarify a heck of a lot. Normally I'd assume this is sarcasm, but when you parrot the unfounded nonsense that Obama=Muslim in the same breath, one can't be sure.

[creativecritter41]

CC, I take it you're on that new fad diet that limits intake to foodstuffs consisting of Hook, Line and Sinker?

"I beg to differ" is your substantive evidence? This is a skeptical forum, not hannity.com.

When you say one thing and follow it with a laughing icon, it doesn't clarify a heck of a lot. Normally I'd assume this is sarcasm, but when you parrot the unfounded nonsense that Obama=Muslim in the same breath, one can't be sure.

Are you saying that I'm not welcomed here because I don't like to get into some kind of debate with you? Can't I just have an opinion.. begging to differ? It won't matter if I take thirty minutes to go look up everything and link you or talk you to death. It won't be enough for you because I'm not in agreement. Until I agree you will say I'm just spewing.. well, then let me spew. I did think though that I gave you two of my reason of thinking that Obama is hiding his true nature. How in the world can you explain him spending so many years in the church of Wright, if he didn't believe and embrace their religion? I believe in guilt by association, but that's just me.

What do you want clarifying? That yeah, I do believe 2012 seems more believable when we are so close to electing a man to be President that could bring about another Muslim Nation? My fears might be wrong, but their mine.

And if I might go off a bit about some of the folks on here. I might not be a genius and I'm ok with that but I'm proud that I still try and ask questions, and offer up my side as well as I can. Some of you make it hard because you make fun of the lack of knowledge. It's embarrassing enough not being able to learn easily as others, no need to rub it in. That's why it took me so long to post my first time on here... scared the s*** outta me frankly. I've watched many ppl get their a** handed to them because they were deemed not smart enough for this particular forum. I'm getting a little tired of the elitist feeling here. I may not be a good enough debater but I have every right to try.

Oh, and I'm sorry I used the smiley in the incorrect manner.... :rolleyes: better?

[Smackety]

Are you saying that I'm not welcomed here because I don't like to get into some kind of debate with you? Can't I just have an opinion.. begging to differ? It won't matter if I take thirty minutes to go look up everything and link you or talk you to death. It won't be enough for you because I'm not in agreement. Until I agree you will say I'm just spewing.. well, then let me spew. I did think though that I gave you two of my reason of thinking that Obama is hiding his true nature. How in the world can you explain him spending so many years in the church of Wright, if he didn't believe and embrace their religion? I believe in guilt by association, but that's just me.

What do you want clarifying? That yeah, I do believe 2012 seems more believable when we are so close to electing a man to be President that could bring about another Muslim Nation? My fears might be wrong, but their mine.

And if I might go off a bit about some of the folks on here. I might not be a genius and I'm ok with that but I'm proud that I still try and ask questions, and offer up my side as well as I can. Some of you make it hard because you make fun of the lack of knowledge. It's embarrassing enough not being able to learn easily as others, no need to rub it in. That's why it took me so long to post my first time on here... scared the s*** outta me frankly. I've watched many ppl get their a** handed to them because they weren't deemed smart enough for this particular forum. I'm getting a little tired of the elitist feeling here. I may not be a good enough debater but I have every right to try.

Oh, and I'm sorry I used the smiley in the incorrect manner.... :rolleyes: better?

Are you saying that Wright is also a Muslim? Otherwise you just contradicted yourself...

[Ausmerican]

I don't think I've ever seen someone internalize EVERY talking point before..

Yeah, that Obama. The only Muslim, half white, white hating, communist, terrorist, radical Christian church going, peacenik jihadist we have.

[creativecritter41]

Yeah, that Obama. The only Muslim, half white, white hating, communist, terrorist, radical Christian church going, peacenik jihadist we have.

The only one running for President anyhow...

[Ausmerican]

The only one running for President anyhow...

OMFSM! Can someone toss in a half dozen laughing dogs here?

[creativecritter41]

Are you saying that Wright is also a Muslim? Otherwise you just contradicted yourself... Ok, a former Muslim. There is no way he just said that because he knows bragging about it will get him in trouble while living here. This argument can go on forever, we really won't have to wait that long to find out though.

I really hope I'm being paranoid. I have no problem embracing Obama if he proves me wrong. But right now, it feels wrong... Oops.. I said feels.. that has no place on a skeptic forum.

[Cleon]

But right now, it feels wrong... Oops.. I said feels.. that has no place on a skeptic forum.

Well, yes, the "spidey sense" is a bit tough to substantiate with facts and evidence and all that other stuff you find completely unimportant.

[creativecritter41]

Well, yes, the "spidey sense" is a bit tough to substantiate with facts and evidence and all that other stuff you find completely unimportant.

Why thank you Mr. Moderator. I guess you made my point about the lack of kindness around here. Anyhoo, here...

http://malpractice.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/law-why-i-hate-obama-as-a-potential-president/

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/o000167/votes/

Not voting, not voting, not voting...it goes on and on. He has no opinion because he doesn't want to take responsibility for his choices. He keeps changing his mind every other debate. One day he isn't for nuclear power, the next he's ok with it. He wants votes and will say whatever it takes to insure those votes. just have a look at the list. He was not voting on Homeland Security issues.. why?

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28797
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2103567/posts

I thought I heard that there were two men on Obama's committee that were some top guns in Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac?

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

Boortz says it all for me really. That's why he has the job, he's articulate and can give the facts and I can't. :)

It's not that I find it unimportant, I just have other things that have to get done and didn't want to take the time. I'm sorry and will try to do better next time... your lordship... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/daz.gif

[varwoche]

Can't I just have an opinion.. begging to differ? You can hold whatever hallucinogenic opinions you want. But when you post them to a skeptical forum, expect to be challenged.

How in the world can you explain him spending so many years in the church of Wright, if he didn't believe and embrace their religion? I believe in guilt by association, but that's just me. Please pay attention. I challenged your absurd claim that Obama is Muslim, not his association with Wright.

What do you want clarifying? That yeah, I do believe 2012 [a Mayan calendar thing] seems more believable when we are so close to electing a man to be President that could bring about another Muslim Nation? Thanks, this explains a lot.

My fears might be wrong, but their mine. Indeed.

I'm proud that I still try and ask questions, and offer up my side as well as I can. Asking questions is one thing. Making stuff up is another.

If you wish to educate yourself, here's a good starting point: snopes (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp)

[Cleon]

I guess you made my point about the lack of kindness around here.

Look, it's like this.

If you're going to make claims and not substantiate them with facts and evidence, people aren't going to take your claims seriously, and there's no good reason for you to expect them to.

If you're going to act snide because people won't take your claims seriously, you're just going to get snideness in return.

Acting offended and giving the "you're being mean to me" routine because people won't take your "feelings" seriously is just silly.

[Ausmerican]

Not voting, not voting, not voting...it goes on and on. He has no opinion because he doesn't want to take responsibility for his choices. He keeps changing his mind every other debate. One day he isn't for nuclear power, the next he's ok with it.

And McCain didn't show up to vote on anything from about March through to the bailout bill.


I thought I heard that there were two men on Obama's committee that were some top guns in Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac?

You did indeed hear that. It is what is commonly called a lie.

Heres an idea for you. Why not try looking at the two candidates, both of them, on some non partisan websites. Try factcheck.org or politifact.com to start with. If you still don't like Obama and prefer McCain, fine. But at least you will be arguing against one of them for real reasons.

[varwoche]

Try factcheck.org or politifact.com to start with. If you still don't like Obama and prefer McCain, fine. But at least you will be arguing against one of them for real reasons. Careful there Ausmerican. Factcheck.org is part of Annenburg, funders of terrorists. ;)

[Ausmerican]

Careful there Ausmerican. Factcheck.org is part of Annenburg, funders of terrorists. ;)

Yeah I know. I played the whole 6 degrees of seperation game on another thread with Obama, Ayers, Annenberg, Reagan, Annenbergs widow, McCain to show that using that logic McCain is supported by the widow of a man that gave funding to a terrorist and "admired above all others" the man (Reagan) who was friends with the guy that funded a terrorist.

[varwoche]

Yeah I know. I played the whole 6 degrees of seperation game on another thread with Obama, Ayers, Annenberg, Reagan, Annenbergs widow, McCain to show that using that logic McCain is supported by the widow of a man that gave funding to a terrorist and "admired above all others" the man (Reagan) who was friends with the guy that funded a terrorist. I saw that outstanding post and it inspired my wisecrack.

[creativecritter41]

Ok.. good enough. Nice chatting with you all. Have a good one.

[Ausmerican]

I saw that outstanding post and it inspired my wisecrack.

Sadly, in this political climate, more people are likely to see that post as an attack on McCain or (gasp) Reagan than an attempt to show how immensely stupid it is to play that sort of game in the first place.

[T.A.M.]

I think he do all of those things... I mean, he already says he is going to raise taxes on higher income, which, in my opinion, are the people that provide the jobs.

Masters provided jobs to their slaves, as did Kings and Aristocrats to the serfs and peasants.

I'm just saying...

TAM;)

[Tony]

I find Obama very scary and if he comes to power with his political opposition questioning his legitimacy, then the seeds of revolt will be sowed.


You find Obama scary? So then you're admitting that you're being irrational?

[Tricky]

I think he do all of those things... I mean, he already says he is going to raise taxes on higher income, which, in my opinion, are the people that provide the jobs. He's vowed to spend billions already on some big plan so, yeah, I think he'll have no problem increasing the budget than the last eight years, heck, I think anyone that gets into the white house will do that. It seems to me, no way around it.
Wealthy people don't create jobs with their personal income. They keep that for themselves. They would have a little less personal income under the Obama plan. While I'm sure that is a hardship on them, I think that their hardship is less than it is for non-wealthy people. As evidence, I point out that few if any of them seem to be willing to swap places with middle-class or poor people. I sincerely doubt that they would under Obama either.

Would Obama increase the budget? Hard to say. He might be quicker to get that big budget-buster item, the Iraq War off the books. But the question in my mind is would he increase the deficit. It sounds to me like he is more in favor of asking Americans to pay as they go than McCain is. That would keep the deficit low, though I have no illusions that he can return to the Clinton surplus years.

I think that the government has created a monster.. that monster being a bunch of spoiled babies that aren't satisfied with what we have.. aka, the American people. Not only do they not appreciate what we have they spit on it.
There are a lot of Americans and in particularly, a lot of Obama supporters who aren't spoiled babies. Indeed, he is more widely supported by people who have to scrape for every dime, whereas wealthy people are more likely to support McCain.

Obama doesn't like America, from what I can see. His wife even admitted that she is, for the first time in her adult life proud of her country. WTF?..
TF is that you have believed the spinsters who took a rhetorical remark and spun it out of all proportion. Obama obviously loves America or he would not work so hard and suffer so many very personal attacks on him and his family if he did not think it was worthwhile to serve the country. The same could be said for McCain.

Do you have the same outrage for the husband of Palin, who was an active member of a group that has the goal of breaking up the US, as you do for the wife of Obama, who made a kind of "rah rah" remark when a microphone was shoved in her face? If not, then I suggest you may be politically inclined to be outraged by one party and not by another.

I find that insulting. Is she proud now because her husband has finally got his foot stuck in the front door of the White House and she can taste what she really wants from this country?
Do you know what she "really wants" from this country? Do you base this knowledge on one sentence spoken at a rally, or do you base it on a comprehensive examination of all of the things she has said?

I will admit this is the first year I've given my full attention to politics and have learned quite a bit. It certainly is a game of words and manipulations... on both sides. It has turned out to be quite the battle.. I also think that the Democrats want so much to be in control of everything they are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

No offense, but it occurs to me that your sources of information in reaching this conclusion may be a bit one-sided. This is true of almost any person who follows politics, including myself. It is very hard to keep your natural tendencies from influencing what and who you believe. But if you really want to know more about what is going on, you have to listen to more than the sound-bytes and the out-of-context statements that both candidates catch each other making.

By the way, do you have any idea what Cindy McCain wants for the country? No, I'm guessing you don't. You want to know why? She rarely says a word to the media. Michelle has the guts to get up and talk, and if everybody sees her verbal slip, it is because she lets herself be under the lights. I respect that.

Anyways.. I'm a nobody, just giving my two cents today whilst doing laundry. :D
Your two cents is just as valid as anyone else's. And laundry, well, that is vitally important. I need to do some myself.

[Random]

Obama is an atheist but one with a Muslim identity.
Do I really need to go over all of this again?

Apparently so becasue what you just said doesn't make a lick of sense. He doesn't believe in a higher power but he bows down to Mecca five times a day? How does that work? Is it good for the spine or something?

I know that the right-wing religious wackos like to push the "Obama is an atheist" line, because they view atheists as evil so by calling him an atheist, they are calling him evil without actually having to say it out loud. They like the "Obama is a secret Muslim" line for pretty much the same reason. But you kinda have to choose one or the other you know.

I can see in my mind, Obama at home as a child. His father sits beside him at breakfast saying in a thick, menacing accent "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. Allah has commanded us to smite all infidels!".

Then his mother, in a chipper and friendly tone says, "And always remember that there is no God, and life is meaningless! Also be sure to remember to take your lunch to school with you today!"

How does that work?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Yup, and we know that McCain had an illegitimate black child in NC too. Right!?

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080128/banks

That actually brought tears to my eyes. Reminds me what Camillien Houde, the one time mayor of Montreal, purportedly once said about politics, "You go in clean. But you come out dirty." :(

[Gord_in_Toronto]

If Obama is a Marxist, then Canada is a socialist country. Obama, by Canadian standards, would be somewhere between Liberal and NDP (more towards Liberal). Far from a Marxist.

TAM:)

As I posted in the "Obama is a Socialist Traitor" thread, he can't possibly be a traitor to socialism 'cause he never was one. :rolleyes:

[Nogbad]

Hi




Cite?

Samuel Johnson once said, "what the mind of man can set, the mind of man can solve."

In EOD school, our IED instructor (hi, sergeant Huffman!) phrased it, "ain't no one cain't be boobytrapped."

The problem with people in any kind of thing like public canvassing is that they all behave so... I dunno... humanly. Things are always going to get screwed up, either accidentally or intentionally, and for reasons that defy enumeration.

...and speaking as a nut-case conservative, one of the things that upsets me and the rest of my co-nutcase co-conservatives about Obama is his involvement with all these weird, liberal causes.

Imagine that: A liberal involved in liberal causes. Oh, the humanity!

Ah well - November will tell which way the wind blows.

Where there is a will there is a way :). However a bank that never locks its safe might reasonably expect greater losses than one that does. Surely a name and a social security number checked against a register to eliminate false numbers/duplicate names would not hurt?

Over here the register is a legal document compiled by local councils and it is a crime to give false information with a hefty fine imposed. It is not foolproof and mistakes occur but no way could one person register 70 times.

People still can't be arsed to vote but at least the register is pretty accurate :D

[jberryhill]

http://images.politico.com/global/mccainacorn.jpg

”We are sure that the extremists he is trying to get into a froth will be even more excited to learn that John McCain stood shoulder to shoulder with ACORN, at an ACORN co-sponsored event, to promote immigration reform,"

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Acorn_pushes_back_hugs_McCain.html?showall

[not_so_new]

I tend to agree Obama is very dangerous. He is a Marxist and the people who follow him into his administration will be like-minded. This movement has been waiting and working for this day since the 1920s and 1930s. It looks like they soon will have it. One question I have is how will the true patriots in our intelligence community and military services react to Obama’s radicalism?

Remember the political thriller Seven Days in May?

:alien011:

[MaGZ]

Yeah, that Obama. The only Muslim, half white, white hating, communist, terrorist, radical Christian church going, peacenik jihadist we have.

Add bisexual crack head.

[Tricky]

Add bisexual crack head.
So let's have the real dirt. Was he good in the sack?

[Ausmerican]

Add bisexual crack head.

Well to be fair to me, I was only using the ones that are either true or you only need to be MOSTLY crazy to believe. The full blown nutticisms like charges of bisexuality and crack addiction I bow to your superior, umm, experience with.

[MaGZ]

Apparently so becasue what you just said doesn't make a lick of sense. He doesn't believe in a higher power but he bows down to Mecca five times a day? How does that work? Is it good for the spine or something?

I know that the right-wing religious wackos like to push the "Obama is an atheist" line, because they view atheists as evil so by calling him an atheist, they are calling him evil without actually having to say it out loud. They like the "Obama is a secret Muslim" line for pretty much the same reason. But you kinda have to choose one or the other you know.

I can see in my mind, Obama at home as a child. His father sits beside him at breakfast saying in a thick, menacing accent "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. Allah has commanded us to smite all infidels!".

Then his mother, in a chipper and friendly tone says, "And always remember that there is no God, and life is meaningless! Also be sure to remember to take your lunch to school with you today!"

How does that work?

Obama did not have a father at home unless you are referring to his Indonesian stepfather who was nominally Muslim.

Obama Sr. was born a Muslim and most likely became an atheist or at least non-religious. His African grandfather first became a Christian and the converted to Islam because he saw Christianity as being weak.

Obama’s mother and her parents who raised Obama were atheists and if not members of the Communist Party USA at least “fellow travelers.”

Obama himself is a atheist but one with a Muslim identity. In college he chose Pakistani Muslims as roommates.

Obama joined that racist anti-white Chicago church solely for political reasons.

[XBoxWarrior]

I tend to agree Obama is very dangerous. He is a Marxist and the people who follow him into his administration will be like-minded. This movement has been waiting and working for this day since the 1920s and 1930s. It looks like they soon will have it. One question I have is how will the true patriots in our intelligence community and military services react to Obama’s radicalism?

Are you that old lady with the crazy hair that said, "He's an Arab", at the McCain rally?

Because you should buy a hair brush, and comb that nasty rat's nest out...at least once a week!

[Ausmerican]

Obama did not have a father at home unless you are referring to his Indonesian stepfather who was nominally Muslim.

Obama Sr. was born a Muslim and most likely became an atheist or at least non-religious. His African grandfather first became a Christian and the converted to Islam because he saw Christianity as being weak.

Obama’s mother and her parents who raised Obama were atheists and if not members of the Communist Party USA at least “fellow travelers.”

Obama himself is a atheist but one with a Muslim identity. In college he chose Pakistani Muslims as roommates.

Obama joined that racist anti-white Chicago church solely for political reasons.

And once again you have done NOTHING to explain what this Muslim "identity" garbage means. If you mean he is a cultural muslim that is obviously false.
Try and grasp this, from an atheist, if you are an atheist than you dont have a secret "identity" it's not like being a superhero.

[Grizzly Bear]

Wealthy people don't create jobs with their personal income. They keep that for themselves. They would have a little less personal income under the Obama plan. While I'm sure that is a hardship on them, I think that their hardship is less than it is for non-wealthy people. As evidence, I point out that few if any of them seem to be willing to swap places with middle-class or poor people. I sincerely doubt that they would under Obama either.
Since we're on the topic of "fairness" in the game of money, what do you think of those included in Obama's tax plan that don't presently pay income taxes (http://dontmesswithtaxes.typepad.com/dont_mess_with_taxes/2008/09/more-than-40-of.html)? Does his plan to include 95% of the population in the cutting taxes bracket include the part of the population that is currently unburdened? What about the effects of his increases on marginal individual income taxes? (http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23501.html)

I'd like to ask you or whoever wants to answer first: (The questions are raised here (http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/23319.html.), so I can't say they're unique to me, but I feel the questions are worth while in repeating here).

What is the long-term effect on the economy of so few households shouldering such a large share of the tax burden?

What are the consequences for our democratic system when a majority of Americans are disconnected from the full cost of government? Will that majority demand more from the government because they bear little of the cost?

Should the tax system be used as a means of redistributing income or simply as a neutral mechanism for raising money for government services? Can a tax system premised on redistribution also be compatible with economic growth?

The Obama plan assumes little behavioral change from such a large tax hike on high-income workers. Is this realistic or will the higher rates encourage tax minimization strategies and reduced work effort, which will lead to lower tax revenues?


You can think what you like about me, I have thick skin. I've formed my own opinion just by having a look at the Pastor Jeremiah Wright and Minister Farrakhan. I'm appalled at Mr. Wrights' blatant bigotry as well. You can bury your head in the sand about how Obama is not a Muslim, I just beg to differ.

I don't mean to beat what's essentially had the pulp beaten out of it already, but while agree with you on Obama's associations (albeit on different grounds), I cannot agree with anyone who makes unsubstantiated comments on a candidate based on name or otherwise. I hope you understand my reasons as well as anyone else's who disagree with your position as to Obama's name or religion... Far too often I've seen the muslim & name smear used on Obama and it's no different than the political bigotry against Palin and McCain

[gdnp]

Since we're on the topic of "fairness" in the game of money, what do you think of those included in Obama's tax plan that don't presently pay income taxes (http://dontmesswithtaxes.typepad.com/dont_mess_with_taxes/2008/09/more-than-40-of.html)? Does his plan to include 95% of the population in the cutting taxes bracket include the part of the population that is currently unburdened? What about the effects of his increases on marginal individual income taxes? (http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23501.html)

I'd like to ask you or whoever wants to answer first: (The questions are raised here (http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/23319.html.), so I can't say they're unique to me, but I feel the questions are worth while in repeating here).

What is the long-term effect on the economy of so few households shouldering such a large share of the tax burden?
Dunno. What is the long-term effect on the economy of so few households possessing such a large share of the total wealth?

What are the consequences for our democratic system when a majority of Americans are disconnected from the full cost of government? Will that majority demand more from the government because they bear little of the cost?
quite possibly. It has been said that democracies fail because the population realizes it can raid the treasury. It depends on how much the politicians pander to the voter. Still, is this worse than a system where Halliburton and Enron manipulate the government for their profit?

Should the tax system be used as a means of redistributing income or simply as a neutral mechanism for raising money for government services? Can a tax system premised on redistribution also be compatible with economic growth?
Define "neutral method." Various taxation schemes have been proposed: graduated income taxes, flat taxes, flat taxes with exclusions, etc. There are countless loopholes: We have about the highest corporate tax rates in the world, but 2/3 of our corporations pay no federal taxes.

We can redistribute wealth through taxes, redistribute wealth through other systems, or not redistribute wealth at all. Taxes are an efficient means of redistributing wealth. New Jersey takes a different tack. They take our money in state income tax, state sales tax, and local property tax, then send "homestead" rebates on the property taxes. Why not just deduct the rebate from the property taxes? Because the legislature likes to send people checks, even if it is only the people's own money.

The Obama plan assumes little behavioral change from such a large tax hike on high-income workers. Is this realistic or will the higher rates encourage tax minimization strategies and reduced work effort, which will lead to lower tax revenues?
That depends. People will use tax minimization strategies regardless of whether we change tax rates. As to the second question, answer this: If I cut your wages, will you want to work more or less overtime? Do you think wealthy people are different? Do you think that Mercedes or vacation house is going to pay off itself?


Far too often I've seen the muslim & name smear used on Obama and it's no different than the political bigotry against Palin and McCain
Political bigotry? Could we have an example?

[Lonewulf]

Is ACORN really that bad? I mean, I've been hearing a lot about it in the news, but the Wikipedia article on it seems to talk far more positively about it.

For instance, if I go off of what some conservatives, and especially FOX news has to say about it (okay, big surprise here), there's absolutely nothing good to it. I haven't seen many positive blurbs on CNN about ACORN, either.

The thing is, I don't see mentions that ACORN worked hard to restore homes and provide relief during Hurricane Katrina.

I also don't see, according to the Wikipedia article, the mention that "ACORN targets companies that engage in lending practices that it considers predatory. It supports strict state laws against predatory practices, organizes against foreclosure rescue scams, and attempts to steer borrowers toward loan counseling."

The cite leads to here: http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=8500 Perhaps ACORN is lying, but can someone lead me to evidence that they were?

Because this seems like ACORN was attempting to fight the same thing that caused the current economic crisis in the first place. o.O

[gdnp]

How dare you challenge Republican talking points with actual data!

[Ausmerican]

How dare you challenge Republican talking points with actual data!

(sigh)
There is getting to be more and more of this frankly unAmurcan behavior over the past few years. He is probably one of those libbural meedya elites. Pay him no mind.

[Puppycow]

Matt Yglesias (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/10/error_rates.php) puts this kerfuffle in the proper perspective:

I find that an awful lot of problems are caused by people’s inability to understand things like error rates and big numbers. If a pharmaceutical company came out with a new anti-depression drug and gave it to a million people suffering from depression, of whom 970,000 were helped you wouldn’t turn around and conclude that the company was perpetrating a deliberate fraud based on the fact that “tens of thousands” of patients got no relief. You’d say that the medicine was helpful in 97 percent of the indicated cases. ACORN is trying — and succeeding — in an effort to register a lot of new voters.

There’s simply no way to gather over one million new voter registration forms without some of the forms having been filled out with bogus information. You could ask the group to automatically toss out the obviously wrong ones — some guy saying he’s Tony Romo, someone else saying he’s Mickey Mouse — but the law requires them to hand all the forms in to prevent them from tossing out forms filled out by people who say they want to register Republican. Consequently, if you go out and register over a million voters you’ll wind up with a lot of bad forms being submitted. But just as 30,000 is a lot of people and also only a very small fraction of one million people, when you’re talking about registering over a million new voters you’d need orders of magnitude more bad forms to constitute real evidence of a systematic fraud campaign.

Meanwhile, if you want to reduce the number of bad forms submitted, you have basically three options:

1. Make voter registration much easier and more automatic so as to reduce the need for registration drives.
2. Let registration organizers toss out forms.
3. Stop all registration drives by conflating good faith errors with systematic, criminal fraud.

Conservatives like option (3) because they don’t like it when large numbers of people vote. And that’s what this is about, finding a backdoor way to delegitimize all efforts at large-scale registration drives. It’d be as if instead of trying to ban computers (obviously impossible) you passed a law saying you could throw someone in jail for selling a computer that’s prone to crashing. It’s computer sales fraud — the thing’s supposed to work! Well, nobody knows how to build a crash-free computer so, bye bye computer industry.

It seems to me that Acorn as an organization is behaving responsibly in these voter registration drives as long as:

1) They tell their employees what the rules are and what they are not allowed to do.
2) If there is evidence of any employees breaking the rules, fire them and inform prosecutors if there is evidence of anything illegal.
3) Flag any forms thought to be suspect, but turn them all in.

As far as I can see, that is exactly what they are doing. Just as any large company will have a few bad employees, they will hire a few bad vote canvassers. It's not the organization as a whole that is at fault for the actions of individual employees.

[Whiplash]

I want to commend virtually everyone involved in this thread in some of the finest rationalizing I've seen in a long time. And it ties into what Ausmerican asked me about in another thread.. about asking for evidence from people I disagree with politically, and my comments about not wanting to get into it too deep because I can see when I'm dealing with people whom I am certain I'll never be able to change their minds.

Demand evidence, eh? We have investigations going on in virtually every battleground state, and raids of ACORN offices. But nope, they aren't bad at all. They are just this wonderful orginization that has a few bad apples. COME ON! There are like a hundred red flags here.

I'm not suggesting that ACORN is corrupt from top to bottom, but the handwaving going on about this whole thing is outrageous. Completely. And the whole thing about this being a distraction in order to further Republican voter supression is so outrageous and despicable it makes me sick. I simply can't believe that people have such utter gall, including Obama himself, who made this exact claim today.

I also loved Tricky's gem about people not using their own personal wealth to create jobs. I suppose small business just pop out of the sky and fall onto the foundations they will eventually do business on. Or maybe they only exist due to some government program.

Many regular Americans put their own money on the line to open small businesses all the time. Obama's plan will most certainly stiffle some of that activity from people who are more well off than the average person, but far from rich.

Meanwhile I find myself suprised to see no one starting threads to condemn the outrageous comments by John Lewis. But I'm not sure why I'm suprised. I guess I really was starting to believe that many of you are bigger than that, and would put aside politics long enough to condemn outrageous, ridiculous and incindery comments. It has just floated right on by without anyone commenting. And yet I'd expected to see people saying things like "Hey, I'm for Obama and all that, but I can't stand by while something this outrageous is being said. He was absolutely wrong to try to make that connection".

Instead I'm certain I'm gonna just see more claims of how the terrible Republicans do it 1000 times more, all the time. Defending bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior, even when it doesn't always exist. And as if it that excuses anything.

I'm sorry for being rude again, but this place drives me crazy. I continue to be in total disbelief that people who are clearly intelligent repeatedly demonstrate complete intellectual dishonesty, bias, and outright sycophantry. It should be clear to anyone who is intelligent and honest that there are serious questions about what has been going on in this orginization.

[Puppycow]

Oh for Pete's sake, Whiplash. Will you please stop whining? :dqueen

If you disagree, please explain why with evidence and arguments, and stop accusing people of intellectual dishonesty.

[leftysergeant]

Many regular Americans put their own money on the line to open small businesses all the time. Obama's plan will most certainly stiffle some of that activity from people who are more well off than the average person, but far from rich.

You haven't been paying attention. Go back and find what Obama said at the last debate about start-up businesses. If you mean that the developer who wants to build a new Walmart out in some small town is going to get his fanny whacked, you have a very strange view of what a small business is.

Meanwhile I find myself suprised to see no one starting threads to condemn the outrageous comments by John Lewis.

Why should we? Lewis is a patriot.

Instead I'm certain I'm gonna just see more claims of how the terrible Republicans do it 1000 times more, all the time. Defending bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior, even when it doesn't always exist. And as if it that excuses anything.

I'm sorry for being rude again, but this place drives me crazy. I continue to be in total disbelief that people who are clearly intelligent repeatedly demonstrate complete intellectual dishonesty, bias, and outright sycophantry. It should be clear to anyone who is intelligent and honest that there are serious questions about what has been going on in this orginization.

No, the Republicans didn't do the same thing ACORN did. In fact, ACORN has been more in compliance with the law than were the dirtbag Republ;icans who conducted a massive voter-registration drive for 2004 and shredded all the Democratic registrations. That's why there are laws in most states that you turn in ALL registrations recieved. Butch up and accept that the complaints against ACORN are just a temper tantrum.

[Random]

Demand evidence, eh? We have investigations going on in virtually every battleground state, and raids of ACORN offices. But nope, they aren't bad at all. They are just this wonderful orginization that has a few bad apples. COME ON! There are like a hundred red flags here.

An investigation in a battleground state means nothing. If you remember back to not that long ago, you will recall the Attorney General Scandal. The Bush adminsitration was firing AGs for failing to prosecute voter fraud cases, regardless of whether or not voter fraud was actually happening. If they did not comply and were fired, they were replaced with more pliable AGs.

It's really quite simple. The GOP wants to make it as hard for certain types of people in certain areas to vote. They want to challenge voters, put in photo ID requirements, set up caging lists, etc. The purpose of these things is not to eliminate votes (although they might eleiminate one or two here and there). The purpose is to create long lines and chaos at certain polling stations on election day.

Of course, if they actually said so they would be crucified, so the GOP needs to justify it. And here we come to voter fraud. "Voter Fraud" is the excuse they have set up for doing all this.

Rhetorically speaking, it's pretty good. Anyone objecting to having millions of lower income Americans having to slog through an extra trip to the DMV to vote can be answered with something like "Surely you don't want someone to vote when they shouldn't" or "having someone prove they are who they say they are is important". Who is going to argue in favor of illegal voting?

The GOP however needs to find fuel to keep the voter fraud argument going. Actual cases of voter fraud are few and far between, and voter registration fraud doesn't actually result in more votes on election day. So we get investigations of groups like ACORN, even though I would be hard pressed to see what they are doing wrong (they flag suspicious registrations for officials, they pay salary to their employees, etc). It is just PR.

I could be wrong of course. Maybe the GOP really does think that this handful of fraudulent voters is a serious problem, and making it harder for poor people and minorties to vote is just a price they are willing to pay.

[Cleon]

I'm not suggesting that ACORN is corrupt from top to bottom, but the handwaving going on about this whole thing is outrageous.

Gee, look who's outraged again. :rolleyes:

[boloboffin]

Could someone point to a single instance of voter fraud perpetrated by ACORN? Lots of voter registration fraud being pointed out, but I've not seen a single case of actual voter fraud (you know, someone pretending to be Mickey Mouse showing up at the polls and trying to cast a vote) yet.

[Dr Adequate]

... outrageous ... so outrageous and despicable it makes me sick ... such utter gall ... outrageous ... outrageous, ridiculous and incindery comments ... outrageous ... absolutely wrong ... We could probably all save a lot of time if you just posted a list of all the things you don't find "outrageous". You know: (1) Furniture (2) Small pieces of gravel (3) Another four years with a Republican President ... have I missed anything?

[Lonewulf]

[...]so outrageous and despicable it makes me sick.In this case, I know how you feel. A lot of the latest hooey has done the exact same thing.

By the way, when you have evidence, please come back with it. Until then, I'll put your entire post where it belongs -- the garbage.

I also like your bit where you say "[...]some of the finest rationalizing I've seen in a long time."

Because, you know, the continuous attacks against Obama that's repeated over and over and over again, seem like some of the worst rationalizing I've ever seen. And as you've yet to provide any evidence besides apparently what you find self evident in your thread, you're also using some pretty damn bad rationalizing.

And it ties into what Ausmerican asked me about in another thread.. about asking for evidence from people I disagree with politically, and my comments about not wanting to get into it too deep because I can see when I'm dealing with people whom I am certain I'll never be able to change their minds."

I'm a skeptic. My mind will be changed with evidence. Got some?

Meanwhile I find myself suprised to see no one starting threads to condemn the outrageous comments by John Lewis. But I'm not sure why I'm suprised.It's "surprised", by the way. Just saying, as you spelled it wrong twice... I like it when others correct me on my German, so I'm not playing "spelling police" as an argument, just saying.

I guess I really was starting to believe that many of you are bigger than that, and would put aside politics long enough to condemn outrageous, ridiculous and incindery comments. It has just floated right on by without anyone commenting. And yet I'd expected to see people saying things like "Hey, I'm for Obama and all that, but I can't stand by while something this outrageous is being said. He was absolutely wrong to try to make that connection".When I see such comments, I'll comment. I wasn't even aware of such comments, personally. I missed the issue entirely.

Instead I'm certain I'm gonna just see more claims of how the terrible Republicans do it 1000 times more, all the time.I'm not talking about something one person is saying, though. I'm going by the FOX news network, and what line after line of conservatives have been recorded saying, including "Everybody dies, right?" as a direct answer to "Should [Senator Obama] be killed?" This causes me to be very concerned when the spin doctors work day and night to paint Obama and any organizations he can be linked to in the worst light possible.

Still, if one person said something stupid, then I'd agree that it was stupid. I'd have to see what they said, though.

Defending bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior, even when it doesn't always exist. And as if it that excuses anything.No, it doesn't excuse anything. You seem to be trying to excuse this bad behavior with our not pointing out bad behavior, though, which makes no more logical sense.

I'm sorry for being rude again, but this place drives me crazy.I'm sorry if not everyone agrees with you. What some of the people say here drives me crazy, too. Especially when people like you ignore it, and then point the finger at us crazy people that supposedly ignore what YOU find distressing.

I continue to be in total disbelief that people who are clearly intelligent repeatedly demonstrate complete intellectual dishonesty, bias, and outright sycophantry.I'm sorry that you feel that way. I feel the same way about the other side, though, especially people like Mhaze, yourself, and Oliver (who generally falls on the other side of issues, but is no less silly).

It should be clear to anyone who is intelligent and honest that there are serious questions about what has been going on in this orginization. Why?

Also, I still question: Why hasn't anyone mentioned ANYTHING positive about ACORN and what they've done? It seems like the organization is treated with such hate by some people, and when looking at it, I don't get it. Sure, maybe there was voter fraud involved. Sure, maybe all of ACORN's members were involved and it was a major conspiracy. Sure, why not? But still, going by what some people are saying, I'd almost think that ACORN was built from the ground up by a group of satanists that sacrificed babies and drank their blood, before reciting a cant on how Bush should be killed, and then renovating houses with upside down crosses and animal sacrifices. Seriously.

[Tricky]

I also loved Tricky's gem about people not using their own personal wealth to create jobs. I suppose small business just pop out of the sky and fall onto the foundations they will eventually do business on. Or maybe they only exist due to some government program.

I said "income" not "wealth". If you invest in a business, it is not income and you don't pay income tax on it. This means that under the Obama plan, wealthy people are encouraged to invest in businesses or jobs, because if they just want to hoard their money, it will be taxed at a higher rate.

But go ahead and be outraged. Watch your blood pressure though.
***
ETA: had to add this. Perfect timing.
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20081006/lnq081007.gif

[maxpower1227]

Could someone point to a single instance of voter fraud perpetrated by ACORN? Lots of voter registration fraud being pointed out, but I've not seen a single case of actual voter fraud (you know, someone pretending to be Mickey Mouse showing up at the polls and trying to cast a vote) yet.

Well, the latest buzz is that some guy named Darnell Nash was caught trying to cast a fraudulent vote in Ohio. Surely this will be cited as proof of a massive top-down voter fraud campaign on the part of ACORN and the DNC.

[pgwenthold]

I'm wondering, now that it has been established that McCain has been involved in ACORN events, if nothing else, and has historically been over the top in his praise of their work, will those who have been harping on it go out and not vote for McCain, either?

Maybe this should just die as it deserves?

BTW, the most famous case of "voter fraud" I can think of is whatsherface - Michele Coulter. Wasn't she charged with voter fraud?

[boloboffin]

Well, the latest buzz is that some guy named Darnell Nash was caught trying to cast a fraudulent vote in Ohio. Surely this will be cited as proof of a massive top-down voter fraud campaign on the part of ACORN and the DNC.

Funny, isn't it? The only actual case of voter fraud being cited is one that didn't involve ACORN at all.

[pgwenthold]

I don't know who Darnell Nash is, but I cited Michele Coulter! Oh wait...

(re Darnell Nash - his case doesn't involve ACORN?)

[boloboffin]

Not that I can tell. Nash walked into the registrar's office himself and attempted to vote. He'd sent in so many false registrations that the Board was already familiar with him and was telling him to quit. I don't see how ACORN enters into his story.

[Lonewulf]

I don't have much time to review this, but I think that some might be using this document for information:

http://www.consumersrightsleague.org/uploadedfiles/Latest%20Million%20Dollar%20ACORN%20Scandal.pdf

[gdnp]

I don't have much time to review this, but I think that some might be using this document for information:

http://www.consumersrightsleague.org/uploadedfiles/Latest%20Million%20Dollar%20ACORN%20Scandal.pdf

Over a decade, the voter fraud case seems to come down to a bunch of hearsay, allegations, and charges, but very few convictions. Here is a summary of the voter-related charges:

eight former ACORN voter registration employees pleaded guilty Strong start!

the submission of 3,000 potentially fraudulent signatures by four of
its employeeshmm. Potentially fraudulent. Any charges or conviction?

“specifically accused” ACORN of turning in bad paperwork.bad paperwork is accused. Not fraud, no charges, no conviction.

35 percent of the cards turned into Louisiana officials were duplicates.And this is ACORN's fault? Were they knowingly submitting duplicate applications? for what purpose? did they think this would allow people to vote twice?

announced the investigation of more than 100 voter registration cards submitted by ACORNAnother investigation. Results?

official “sees rampant fraud in the 2,000 to 3,000 registrations ACORN turns in every week.”Evidence? Charges? Convictions? Or just bitching by an employee who has to process all of these applications instead of playing solitaire on her computer?

ACORN and Project Vote employees were implicated in voter registration fraud
allegations in more than a dozen states.sounds like a summary. Implicated in allegations does not mean convicted of criminal wrongdoing.

two ex-ACORN employees were convicted of perjury for submitting false voter registration forms;Two more convictions.

ACORN employee who had more than 300 voter registration cards in the trunk of his car, many of which had not been turned in within the legal
time limit.Wait, are they supposed to be turning in too many forms or too few forms? Sounds more like sloppy work than fraud.

of a sample of Project Vote-gathered registrations, 83% were rejected for using false or questionable information.Information entered by the ACORN employees or the person trying to register? Are the ACORN employees responsible if someone lies to them?

Washington officials announced the indictment of seven workers ACORN had hired to register voters, calling the episode the “worst case of voter registration fraud in the history of the state.” At least three of those individuals have pleaded guilty and ACORN was forced to pay a $25,000 settlement. 3 more convictions! We are now up to 11, I believe.

So now let's try to look at the significance. As has been pointed out, this is voter registration fraud, not voter fraud. There is not a single case documented where anyone has been shown to have successfully voted using a fraudulent ACORN registration.

And of course, the most important question: What does this have to do with Obama? He represented them in a lawsuit a decade ago. So what?

[pgwenthold]

Not that I can tell. Nash walked into the registrar's office himself and attempted to vote. He'd sent in so many false registrations that the Board was already familiar with him and was telling him to quit. I don't see how ACORN enters into his story.

Apparently the right wing blogs where I found info about him didn't provide all the details, I guess. They just lumped him in with other ACORN news. I did note they didn't say he was a result of ACORN, but lumped him with them.

[Lonewulf]

So, in short, there's no real evidence of an ACORN-wide amount of corruption? At all?

Wow.

I guess when you repeat a lie enough, it becomes truth. And of course, it's "outrageous" when some of us are skeptical of such claims. Poor Whiplash. He'll get a mental whiplash from all the mental indignation he's penting up at people daring to say "evidence?"

[MattusMaximus]

This article helps to provide some clarity on all the craziness surrounding the ACORN claims. Warning to Whiplash: reading this article could very well give you... whiplash, as you do a double-take ;)

Fact Check: GOP vitriol rages over ACORN (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27228549/)

Republican John McCain took his criticism of community activist group ACORN to new heights, claiming in the final presidential debate that the organization "is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy." ...

... McCain is correct that at least a handful of ACORN canvassers are currently being investigated across the country by local officials on suspicion of submitting false registration cards, some with names like "Mickey Mouse" or "Donald Duck."

But in alleging voter fraud, McCain goes too far. To commit fraud, a person would have to show up on Election Day with identification bearing the fake name. ...

Seems to me like much ado about nothing. But let them investigate and root out the few idiots who are screwing around with voter registrations - that's why we have election laws. I'm getting the sense that at the end of the day, there won't be any evidence of a vast, liberal ACORN conspiracy found to justify the GOP rantings. They just seem to be a bit too shrill to be believable.

ETA: Having said this, I have no doubt in my mind that this story will persist as a favorite conspiracy theory of the hardcore right-wing of the GOP for many years to come.

[Smackety]

Hey.. who would suspect a name like Donald Duck! It is perfect. Donald Duck will cast millions of votes and swing the entire election! It is a conspiracy!

ETA: I wonder if he is going to wear pants when he goes to vote?

[GeeMack]

[...] I have no doubt in my mind that this story will persist as a favorite conspiracy theory of the hardcore right-wing of the GOP for many years to come.


But... but... you're forgetting there is a conspiracy, MattusMaximus. Its mere simplicity is what makes it so deceptively unobvious. Notice the bolded part in the quote below from the Fundamental Truths blog (http://fundamental-truths.blogspot.com/2008/10/acorn-conspiracy-theory.html). There's your conspiracy right there, pal. Those darn leftists. Trying to ruin the fun of the elections by working to get more people out to vote. It will mean the end democracy as we know it! Where's the outrage? Who'll think of the children!? Oh, the humanity!

This is clearly an attempt to paint the work of this organization as some evil conspiracy, when the reality is the Republicans are always threatened when more people vote. Republicans have a long history of voter suppression, ACORN is one of many organisations that have brought more Americans to participate in our democracy.

[Puppycow]

NY Times Editorial (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/opinion/17fri1.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin):

In Wednesday night’s debate, John McCain warned that a group called Acorn is “on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history” and “may be destroying the fabric of democracy.” Viewers may have been wondering what Mr. McCain was talking about. So were we.

Some viewers might have been wondering. Others, it seems, decided that it was time to take the law into their own hands (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/54360.html):

Death threat, vandalism hit ACORN after McCain comments

By Greg Gordon | McClatchy Newspapers
WASHINGTON — An ACORN community organizer received a death threat and the liberal activist group's Boston and Seattle offices were vandalized Thursday, reflecting mounting tensions over its role in registering 1.3 million mostly poor and minority Americans to vote next month.

Attorneys for the Association of Community Organizers for Reform Now were notifying the FBI and the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division of the incidents, said Brian Kettenring, a Florida-based spokesman for the group.

Republicans, including presidential candidate John McCain, have verbally attacked the group repeatedly in recent days, alleging a widespread vote-fraud scheme, although they've provided little proof. It was disclosed Thursday that the FBI is examining whether thousands of fraudulent voter-registration applications submitted by some ACORN workers were part of a systematic effort or isolated incidents.

Kettenring said that a senior ACORN staffer in Cleveland, after appearing on television this week, got an e-mail that said she "is going to have her life ended."

A female staffer in Providence, R.I., got a threatening call from someone who said words to the effect of "We know you get off work at 9," then uttered racial epithets, he said.

McClatchy is withholding the women's names because of the threats.

Separately, vandals broke into the group's Boston and Seattle offices and stole computers, Kettenring said.

The incidents came the day after McCain charged in the final presidential debate that ACORN's voter-registration drive "may be perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history" and may be "destroying the fabric of democracy."

[leftysergeant]

McCain is spreasding a lie and, by agency, inciting violence. He is becoming an enemy of the constitution.

He is up to his neck in the muck now.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't have much time to review this, but I think that some might be using this document for information:

http://www.consumersrightsleague.org/uploadedfiles/Latest%20Million%20Dollar%20ACORN%20Scandal.pdfWel l, for starters, not a single allegation here is supported with any reference to evidence except in the first paragraph it mentions the NYT's article about the "leak" from the justice department about ACORN investigations in a number of states where the polls show close to a tie between Obama and McCain.

Here's what Sourcewatch has to say about The Consumer Right's League (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Consumers_Rights_League) which put up the web page.The Consumer Rights League (CRL) appears to be a front group for the credit card industry that was created to do battle with industry critics such as the Center for Responsible Lending and ACORN....

...The "Consumers Rights League" does not disclose on its Web site that it was started by Terry L. Kibbe, a former chief fundraiser for the Competitive Enterprise Institute and the Cato Institute. A March 2008 article in Forbes omits the details about Kibbe's background, while quoting her Kibbe's criticism of Self-Help Credit Union,[2] the North Carolina-based relative of the Center for Responsible Lending,[3] which advocates against payday loans.



As for that "leak", coming the day after McCain's absurd claim that ACORN was possibly committing the worst voter fraud ever is now looking very suspicious coming from the same Justice Department being investigated for illegal abusive actions that appear to have been undertaken to influence the 04 and 06 elections.

Coordinated talking points come to mind. That really puts a cloud over McCain's integrity (if he had any left). I'm going to start a new thread on this since the issue here is misuse of the Justice Department for political gain.

As for ACORN and the voter fraud allegations, they are being used by the Republican leadership to promote voter challenges in swing states. It's not new. I posted a lot on this when I looked into the 8 attorney firings. John Fund, who has been on Fox News lately, wrote a now completely discredited book claiming widespread voter fraud by the Democratic Party in 2004. It was key then to a push to disenfranchise voters by requiring voter ID at the polls which a lot of low income voters did not have.

I think the voter ID issue is past. Considering all the claims of vote fraud, we are stuck with it even if it does create hurdles for low income voters (who don't all have driver's licenses for example).

Well that wasn't hard to find:

RNC history of recent voter suppression activity (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=88640)

[MattusMaximus]

Others, it seems, decided that it was time to take the law into their own hands (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/54360.html):


Wonderful. The wingnuts are at it again - when will McCain realize that he's hitched his wagon to the wrong crowd? :rolleyes:

[Oliver]

It seems as if the story is taking another turn:

BREAKING: Obama Campaign Calls For Investigation Into DOJ/McCain Collusion On ACORN Smears (http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/breaking-obama-campaign-calls-investi)

Breaking news on Friday's Countdown. Senator Barack Obama's campaign has written a letter to Attorney General Michael Mukasey (http://www.politico.com/static/PPM106_obama_doj_letter.html) asking for an investigation into improper leaks from DOJ officials involving their ACORN investigation and whether or not people within the DOJ, perhaps with the help of the White House, are working in concert with the McCain campaign to further the ACORN myth for his political advantage. Keith Olbermann talked with an Obama campaign attorney about this brilliant strategy by the campaign -- they are linking the ACORN/DOJ scandal with the U.S. Attorney firing scandal. :D If you will recall, several of the improperly fired attorneys were let go primarily because they wouldn't play along with Rove/GOP demands that they prosecute bogus voter fraud cases.

[dudalb]

I have to say it again. Both parties will try to bend, evade or out and out break election laws if they think it will help them and they think they can get away with it.
The have no doubt that some ACORN officials tried to slip a few questionable voter registration forms past the officials, and I have no doubt that the GOP is trying to purge a few legit voters from the rolls. Mr. Pot, meet Miss Kettle.
But the violence against ACORN is an outrage. If you have problems with them, take them to court.
And I fully expect
a few on the left will try to get a little SLA style action going. Wonderful.
I am really scared that no matter what happens in November, we will see a upsurge of political violence in this country,and what is scarier, some angry, dissapointed idelogues on the losing side will try to justify it. The level of poltical based hate in this country seems to be at a level we have not seen since the 1850's, and looked at what happened as a result in the 1860's.

[Smackety]

Sorry, the hate and violence is totally one sided.
Why are ACORN officials trying to slip questionable voter registration forms past the officials? So that Mickey Mouse can actually vote?

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have to say it again. Both parties will try to bend, evade or out and out break election laws if they think it will help them and they think they can get away with it.
The have no doubt that some ACORN officials tried to slip a few questionable voter registration forms past the officials, and I have no doubt that the GOP is trying to purge a few legit voters from the rolls. Mr. Pot, meet Miss Kettle....And what would be the purpose of ACORN doing this? If you were going to stuff the ballot box, you wouldn't use Mickey Mouse and obvious multiple registrations signed by the same person. Unless there is some evidence someone planned to vote under the fake registrations you have nothing more than an aggressive voter registration campaign.

BTW, it would be illegal for ACORN to decide which registrations to turn in. The problem is hiring people to register voters. That leads to people faking registrations. At this point that is ALL the evidence anyone has.

While I think it is safe to assume people in both parties do bad things, the evidence I uncovered and the continuing illegal vote tampering actions here differ between the parties in one big respect. The voter disenfranchisement is a coordinated effort led by the Republican Party leaders and includes outrageously illegal actions such as using the Justice Department.

The evidence is clear that if you go back in history you'll find serious wrongdoing from both parties. But dismissing the actions of the Republican leadership here as just the usual shenanigans they all do gravely underestimates the scope of this tactic.

[Skeptic Ginger]

It seems as if the story is taking another turn:As I was saying in post #111.....As for that "leak", coming the day after McCain's absurd claim that ACORN was possibly committing the worst voter fraud ever is now looking very suspicious coming from the same Justice Department being investigated for illegal abusive actions that appear to have been undertaken to influence the 04 and 06 elections.

Coordinated talking points come to mind. That really puts a cloud over McCain's integrity (if he had any left). I'm going to start a new thread on this since the issue here is misuse of the Justice Department for political gain.

[Oliver]

Sorry, the hate and violence is totally one sided.
Why are ACORN officials trying to slip questionable voter registration forms past the officials? So that Mickey Mouse can actually vote?


It's quite easy:

"ACORN’s defenders protest that they are the victim of a few bad apples. Some of its workers, they maintain, find it easier to crib names from the phone book than to trawl around looking for real voters." Source (http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12432392)

That's the whole story. Nothing to do with a conspiracy - or Obama.

[MattusMaximus]

It seems as if the story is taking another turn:

Well, this is certainly going to get more and more interesting as time goes on...

[Smackety]

It's quite easy:

"ACORN’s defenders protest that they are the victim of a few bad apples. Some of its workers, they maintain, find it easier to crib names from the phone book than to trawl around looking for real voters." Source (http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12432392)

That's the whole story. Nothing to do with a conspiracy - or Obama.

I know..> I was hoping someone who thought it was NOT a desperate smear attempt would answer.
I mean, if I was paid 5 cents a reg, and bad ones were just trashed - no harm done - I might be tempted to pad my stack too.

[Oliver]

I know..> I was hoping someone who thought it was NOT a desperate smear attempt would answer.
I mean, if I was paid 5 cents a reg, and bad ones were just trashed - no harm done - I might be tempted to pad my stack too.


Well, if there are two things that show how desperate the
losing Republicans are, it's ACORN and Ayers. They better
come up with something substantial - soon ...

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, this is certainly going to get more and more interesting as time goes on...
I've started a new thread on this turn of events:

Using the Justice Department to influence the election, again (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=126606)

[Puppycow]

I know..> I was hoping someone who thought it was NOT a desperate smear attempt would answer.
I mean, if I was paid 5 cents a reg, and bad ones were just trashed - no harm done - I might be tempted to pad my stack too.

My understanding is that they do not get paid based on the number of forms they turn in. The get paid by the hour or a fixed salary. Still, they would have to at least turn in some legitimate forms or it would be clear that they aren't trying.

[Skeptic Ginger]

My understanding is that they do not get paid based on the number of forms they turn in. The get paid by the hour or a fixed salary. Still, they would have to at least turn in some legitimate forms or it would be clear that they aren't trying.ACORN is an umbrella group that encompasses a number of semi-independent branches. In WA State I believe the problem was paying by the name. Some workers sat in the library copying phone book entries.

For the individuals who actually are likely to be charged with a crime, one guy said they gave him cigarettes and little things so he kept registering when the next worker came by.

So I think it was a number of different problems. Still, all related to fraudulent workers, not to some conspiracy to pad the voting rolls. ACORN members now speaking out to the news media said they flagged the bad registrations for the county registration boards. It would have been illegal for ACORN to not turn in the registrations once they received them.

They were fined in WA State, however. That was after the Federal Attorney, John McKay was fired for refusing to go after them. He was one of the 8 attorney's fired by Bush for not going along with instructions to prosecute Democrats prior to the election. But part of the fine was for causing a burden on election registration officials who got the registrations at the last minute or something. I'm not sure what the instructions were by the court for ACORN to police their workers more closely. No voter fraud was found, only registration problems.

[MaGZ]

I have to say it again. Both parties will try to bend, evade or out and out break election laws if they think it will help them and they think they can get away with it.
The have no doubt that some ACORN officials tried to slip a few questionable voter registration forms past the officials, and I have no doubt that the GOP is trying to purge a few legit voters from the rolls. Mr. Pot, meet Miss Kettle.
But the violence against ACORN is an outrage. If you have problems with them, take them to court.
And I fully expect
a few on the left will try to get a little SLA style action going. Wonderful.
I am really scared that no matter what happens in November, we will see a upsurge of political violence in this country,and what is scarier, some angry, dissapointed idelogues on the losing side will try to justify it. The level of poltical based hate in this country seems to be at a level we have not seen since the 1850's, and looked at what happened as a result in the 1860's.

I think near-term political violence will be more like the 1960s than 1860s, although it is possible things could get out-of-hand.

[MaGZ]

Well, if there are two things that show how desperate the
losing Republicans are, it's ACORN and Ayers. They better
come up with something substantial - soon ...

Larry Sinclair?

[Smackety]

Larry Sinclair?

You are right. The Constitution Party is far more desperate than the Republicans. Here's your sign.

[Cleon]

Larry Sinclair?

He said "substantial."

[CptColumbo]

If someone could point to where registrations supplied by ACORN has led to fraudulent votes being cast, it would go a long way to convincing me that they are dangerous to the process.

IIRC they are required to submit all the regitrations they receive (there might actually be a person named Clark Kent) and flag any registrations they believe to be false.

[Ausmerican]

Well, if there are two things that show how desperate the
losing Republicans are, it's ACORN and Ayers. They better
come up with something substantial - soon ...

What do you mean Oliver? They are only moving through the 'A' list of scandals. B starts next week and there are still 22 letters to go after that. (They could'nt come up with any starting with Q or X.)

[Oliver]

What do you mean Oliver? They are only moving through the 'A' list of scandals. B starts next week and there are still 22 letters to go after that. (They could'nt come up with any starting with Q or X.)


I mean that the smears -equal- dropping polls. So if McCain is going
to use the letters B to Z in the next days - we won't even recognize
his name on election day. :D

[Ausmerican]

I mean that the smears -equal- dropping polls. So if McCain is going
to use the letters B to Z in the next days - we won't even recognize
his name on election day. :D

Which is why, first thing Monday morning, John McCain is starting fresh.
Same team, same faces but a whole new 'all American' dynamic!
How you ask? Name changes!
As of Monday the ticket will be referred to by the candidates new legal names: John McKeymouse and Sarah Applepie.

So Vote for McKeymouse and Applepie!
It's a vote for America!

[CptColumbo]

Which is why, first thing Monday morning, John McCain is starting fresh.
Same team, same faces but a whole new 'all American' dynamic!
How you ask? Name changes!
As of Monday the ticket will be referred to by the candidates new legal names: John McKeymouse and Sarah Applepie.

So Vote for McKeymouse and Applepie!
It's a vote for America!
Cherrypie would be more appropriate and then they could use that song by Warrant.

[Ausmerican]

Cherrypie would be more appropriate and then they could use that song by Warrant.

Given their track record they should just give up using the music of anyone that is actually still alive. Dont know if that counts for Warrant tho.

[davefoc]

I missed this little Cicero gem the first time around
Fox News- Not in the tank, but perceived to "mistreat" ObamaUm, I believe your Fox News statement is a bit, um, understated.

Fox News - Insanely in the Tank for McCain, and bizarro world unbalanced against perceived liberalism.

Shall we remember, "Terrorist Fist Bump, Obama a secret muslim, Michelle's anti-white thesis..."

The 24/7 Bill Ayers/ACORN network is not in the tank for McCain? I suppose that Cicero may have been making a little joke there, but what Fox is doing with regard to this election is troubling.

The network has devoted a very large percentage of their air time to defeating Obama. They have long since abandoned any pretense of analytical comparisons of the two candidates. Fox is driven to smear Obama in any conceivable way that they think will help their candidate. Many of their news stories have anti-Obama messages slipped into them. Their editorial content is completely dedicated to driving anti-Obama stories often without the slightest effort at objectivity or truth. A lot has been made of the huge difference in available funds to the two candidates but the cost of buying and operating about 50% of the Fox News network as an infomercial for a single candidate outdistances any financial advantage that Obama has.

[Cicero]

I missed this little Cicero gem the first time around


The 24/7 Bill Ayers/ACORN network is not in the tank for McCain? I suppose that Cicero may have been making a little joke there, but what Fox is doing with regard to this election is troubling.

The network has devoted a very large percentage of their air time to defeating Obama. They have long since abandoned any pretense of analytical comparisons of the two candidates. Fox is driven to smear Obama in any conceivable way that they think will help their candidate. Many of their news stories have anti-Obama messages slipped into them. Their editorial content is completely dedicated to driving anti-Obama stories often without the slightest effort at objectivity or truth. A lot has been made of the huge difference in available funds to the two candidates but the cost of buying and operating about 50% of the Fox News network as an infomercial for a single candidate outdistances any financial advantage that Obama has.

Do you actually watch FOX News? How did you miss Chris Wallace's interview with McCain? More infomercials like these and the Obama lead will be at 25. FOX News is not an Obama cheerleader, but they also do go after McCain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-crONNOrjMs


How about Colin Powell's 7 1/2 minute uninterrupted infomercial for Obama on "Meet The Press?" Tom Brokaw just turned over the show to Powell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_NMZv6Vfh8

[BeAChooser]

I watched the video and other then looking like the questions were formed by someone like BaC or Cicero, what's the problem. Joe's responses were very impressive and I congratulate him for not laughing and just walking away.


Biden LIED in his answers.

He claimed Obama and the democrats are not tied to ACORN. LIAR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhQAHKxuR1Q

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2008/10/11/acorn-fraud-obama-ties-to-acorn-run-long-and-deep/

http://www.newsmax.com/lowell_ponte/obama_acorn_smears/2008/10/06/137891.html

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDZiMjkwMDczZWI5ODdjOWYxZTIzZGIyNzEyMjE0ODI=

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/05/obamas_ties_to_acorn_more_subs.html

He claimed they had not paid one single penny to ACORN to register a single solitary voter. LIAR.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=308358130652174

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/election/s_584284.html

He claimed Obama is giving the middle class an opportunity to get back the tax breaks they used to have. LIAR.

http://www.obamascon.com/2008/10/07/about-obamas-middle-class-tax-cut/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html "One of Barack Obama's most potent campaign claims is that he'll cut taxes for no less than 95% of "working families." He's even promising to cut taxes enough that the government's tax share of GDP will be no more than 18.2% -- which is lower than it is today. It's a clever pitch, because it lets him pose as a middle-class tax cutter while disguising that he's also proposing one of the largest tax increases ever on the other 5%. But how does he conjure this miracle, especially since more than a third of all Americans already pay no income taxes at all? There are several sleights of hand, but the most creative is to redefine the meaning of "tax cut." For the Obama Democrats, a tax cut is no longer letting you keep more of what you earn. In their lexicon, a tax cut includes tens of billions of dollars in government handouts that are disguised by the phrase "tax credit." ... snip ... The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year. The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis estimates that by 2011, under the Obama plan, an additional 10 million filers would pay zero taxes while cashing checks from the IRS. The total annual expenditures on refundable "tax credits" would rise over the next 10 years by $647 billion to $1.054 trillion, according to the Tax Policy Center. This means that the tax-credit welfare state would soon cost four times actual cash welfare."

He claimed the wealth is being redistributed UP under Bush's policy. LIAR.

How can a tax policy that takes a larger percentage of the total taxes paid from the wealthy than the percent of total income they earn be spreading the wealth in any direction but DOWN?

He claimed John McCain was wrong in Iraq saying we'd be greeted as liberators. LIAR.

Our troops were indeed greeted as liberators in the beginning. Even the French media documented this fact.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030408-army-101st-najaf.htm "AN NAJAF, Iraq (Army News Service, April 8, 2003) - The smiles and cheers of a liberated populace greeted the soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) as they secured the city of Najaf in the first days of April."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=35907 "Iraq: Were we greeted as 'liberators'?, April 27, 2006, By Larry Elder"

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=33251


Iraq’s Interior Minister Thanks U.S. Troops for Liberating Iraq, Wednesday, July 30, 2008 ... snip ... “We have come … to express our gratitude and appreciation for the sacrifices made by these great warriors, soldiers, in freeing the Iraqi people and in helping us in Iraq recover from tyranny and dictatorship,” Jawad Karim al-Bolani, Iraq’s minister of the interior, said through a translator to a handful of journalists in the lobby of the medical center.

You were taken in by Biden lies, James.

But then democrats have proven themselves unable to distinguish lies. :D

[UnrepentantSinner]

Shall we remember, "Terrorist Fist Bump, Obama a secret muslim, Michelle's anti-white thesis..."

Myopic focus on Ayers, calling Obama "BHO" ala "KSM", carving B on a McCain campain worker (ooops), Obama founded ACORN, etc.

[davefoc]

BAC, I watched your first video. I'm not going to check out the rest unless you had one in mind that was coming from a source other than ones advancing their agendas without regard to objectivity.

My comments on the first video.
1. What percentage of the bad loans that brought down the GSE's were made to minorities? My understanding is that minority loans were not a significant issue looking at the overall problems with the GSE's.

2. What role did vast unfunded spending over the last seven years play in the current financial crisis? Was this report that you are touting trying to determine root causes of the failure or was the main purpose to tie Obama to an element of the issue?

3. What role did failure to regulate the unrevealed highly leveraged positions of the failed companies play with regard to this financial crisis? Was that a far more significant issue than minority loans with respect to this crisis? If so do you have any thoughts about why Fox might not have discussed that?

4. Was some of the effort to stop redlining a legitimate effort to address past discrimination?

5. Was Obama specifically involved with redlining cases when he represented ACORN?

6. How long did Obama work for ACORN and specifically what were his responisibilities?

What caused the current financial crisis is a complicated issue and I tend to agree that the Democrats share a considerable part of the blame. But a Fox report has no probative value with regard to the issue.

When information is supplied by people with an agenda that obviously overwhelms any kind of inttellectual honesty their information is only of use to the true believers who are energized by listening to their horribly partisan, distorted commentary.

If you are trying to be credible linking to non-credible sources does not help your case.

[BeAChooser]

BAC, I watched your first video. I'm not going to check out the rest unless you had one in mind that was coming from a source other than ones advancing their agendas without regard to objectivity.

ROTFLOL! That's really funny ... coming from you.

5. Was Obama specifically involved with redlining cases when he represented ACORN?

Yes, Dave. If you'd made even the slightest attempt to learn the facts, you'd already know that Obama represented ACORN in a 1994 suit against redlining. Are you unaware of this because the only sources you will read and believe are those that for reasons of political bias fail to mention such easily verifiable facts?

Do you want to see an example of how utterly dishonest Obama and his campaign are (a prelude of what's to come if Obama enters the Whitehouse)? Obama's "fight the smears" website stated that "Obama never organized with ACORN" (LIE), never trained for ACORN (LIE) and was never employed by them in any other capacity than a 1995 "Motor Voter" lawsuit (LIE). The website also claimed that ACORN was not involved in Obama's 1992 "Project Vote". LIE. In fact, here is what Obama himself said, when addressing ACORN leaders in November 2007: “I’ve been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career. Even before I was an elected official, when I ran Project Vote voter registration drive in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it, and we appreciate your work.”

Obama and Biden are LIARS, Dave, but apparently thanks to years and years of exposure to Clinton's lies, democrats like you are no longer even capable of recognizing lies. It's rather sad and very scary that someone with as many long term, far left radical associations as Obama, who espouses a philosophy that is so contrary to the basic principles that made this country great, may win the Presidency. Especially when he's told so many lies, spouted such stupidity, and has so many shadowy associations with people who have ... let's just say ... rather anti-American views.

The fact that McCain is still within winning distance in this election despite Obama having an overwhelming advantage in funding (milions of it clearly illegal) and despite most of the media being in his pocket (oh I know you'll deny that, but when two-thirds of Americans say the media wants Obama to win, your denials are rather lame), speaks to the seriousness of the concerns that the more rational half of us retain regarding Obama. Concerns that your side (and the mainstream media) aren't addressing but simply ignoring because you know that's the tactic that will bring victory. You may win but ONLY because you had the media on your side so that many Americans did not hear the facts. You may win because liberal controlled schools have successfully dumbed down the populace.

6. How long did Obama work for ACORN and specifically what were his responisibilities?

It's really up to you to read. Material (such as that from Stanley Kurtz) has been offered which fills in the page that Obama has deliberately tried to keep blank. I know you don't like the sources because they don't agree with YOUR agenda. But I challenge you to point out something that they specifically claim that isn't true. I've made that challenge before ... for example when you folks try to smear Newsmax as a source ... and curiously enough all I ever get in return is silence. That says a lot more about you and your side than about me and my sources, Dave.

[BeAChooser]

I suppose I could have more properly called her a freaking dimbulb, mindless robot, vapid twit, drooling moron, guanophrenic blathermeisterin, what ever. She's about as sharp as a bowling ball.

You really are a piece of work, lefty.

I sure wish you could get the national stage as Obama's spokesperson.

Hearing you, I suspect voters would flock to McCain in droves. :D

[leftysergeant]

The fact that McCain is still within winning distance in this election despite Obama having an overwhelming advantage in funding (milions of it clearly illegal)

Prove that millions of it is illegal or shove it.



Then account for these two airheads and that twit on the Florida station.


[QUOTE] speaks to the seriousness of the concerns that the more rational half of us retain regarding Obama.

Your using "more rational" and "us" in the same copntext, while defending the two ditzt talking heads is a bit ironic.

[leftysergeant]

Despite what leftysergeant wants you to believe, Seismosaurus, the Obama campaign is being just as dishonest in it's attempt to distance itself from ACORN in the eyes of voters as it has been in its' representation of the association between Obama and Ayers, Obama and Reverend Wright, Obama and CODEPINK, etc, etc, etc.

Most of what you have said is discredited or deliberately misleading.

And stop whining about Biden's not wanting to waste time with idiots. Their audience is locked in for McCain to begin with.

[Cicero]

Then account for these two airheads and that twit on the Florida station.
Your using "more rational" and "us" in the same copntext, while defending the two ditzt talking heads is a bit ironic.

One of the "ditzt" talking heads is an African American women. Does she also qualify as a "bimbo, freaking dimbulb, mindless robot, vapid twit, drooling moron, guanophrenic blathermeisterin?' After all, isn't she doing what you describe as "throwing working women under the bus" by asking Biden questions other than "when was the last time you cried?"

Does the Obama camp know about you?

[davefoc]

ROTFLOL! That's really funny ... coming from you.



Yes, Dave. If you'd made even the slightest attempt to learn the facts, you'd already know that Obama represented ACORN in a 1994 suit against redlining. Are you unaware of this because the only sources you will read and believe are those that for reasons of political bias fail to mention such easily verifiable facts?

Do you want to see an example of how utterly dishonest Obama and his campaign are (a prelude of what's to come if Obama enters the Whitehouse)? Obama's "fight the smears" website stated that "Obama never organized with ACORN" (LIE), never trained for ACORN (LIE) and was never employed by them in any other capacity than a 1995 "Motor Voter" lawsuit (LIE). The website also claimed that ACORN was not involved in Obama's 1992 "Project Vote". LIE. In fact, here is what Obama himself said, when addressing ACORN leaders in November 2007: “I’ve been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career. Even before I was an elected official, when I ran Project Vote voter registration drive in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it, and we appreciate your work.”

Obama and Biden are LIARS, Dave, but apparently thanks to years and years of exposure to Clinton's lies, democrats like you are no longer even capable of recognizing lies. It's rather sad and very scary that someone with as many long term, far left radical associations as Obama, who espouses a philosophy that is so contrary to the basic principles that made this country great, may win the Presidency. Especially when he's told so many lies, spouted such stupidity, and has so many shadowy associations with people who have ... let's just say ... rather anti-American views.

The fact that McCain is still within winning distance in this election despite Obama having an overwhelming advantage in funding (milions of it clearly illegal) and despite most of the media being in his pocket (oh I know you'll deny that, but when two-thirds of Americans say the media wants Obama to win, your denials are rather lame), speaks to the seriousness of the concerns that the more rational half of us retain regarding Obama. Concerns that your side (and the mainstream media) aren't addressing but simply ignoring because you know that's the tactic that will bring victory. You may win but ONLY because you had the media on your side so that many Americans did not hear the facts. You may win because liberal controlled schools have successfully dumbed down the populace.



It's really up to you to read. Material (such as that from Stanley Kurtz) has been offered which fills in the page that Obama has deliberately tried to keep blank. I know you don't like the sources because they don't agree with YOUR agenda. But I challenge you to point out something that they specifically claim that isn't true. I've made that challenge before ... for example when you folks try to smear Newsmax as a source ... and curiously enough all I ever get in return is silence. That says a lot more about you and your side than about me and my sources, Dave.


The basic idea of BAC's quote seemed to be that Obama is a liar and he's covering up some huge role in the anti-redlining lawsuit that was brought or at least funded by ACORN.

OK, first I took note of the fact that BAC didn't have anything to say about how significant minority loaning policies were with regard to the financial crisis. The right wing claims would suggest that this is a very significant contributor to the current financial crisis and the fact that George Bush spent 4.5 trillion dollars over the last seven years that the country didn't have is irrelevant.

I suspect that they are not being completely straightforward in their claims about that.

But what role did Obama play with regard to these lawsuits and were the lawsuits really aimed at getting poor people loans they couldn't afford to pay?

This is what snopes had to say:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/loans.asp

quick summary:
Obama was a Junior lawyer on the team that brought the lawsuit and played no significant role in court.

The lawsuit was about redlining and not an effort to get poor people loans they couldn't pay.

As something of a libertarian on these issue I can well understand that the law the suit was about might have unintended consequences that exceed the benefits. But in order to sustain the right wing claim that this is a significant issue associated with the current financial crisis one would have to provide actual evidence of that. I don't think the right wing punditry has provided evidence because in fact minority loans stemming from anti-redlining lawsuits are a small part of the overall financial crisis so there is no evidence to provide.

There is also only a very tenuous link between a young lawyer and the anti-redlining lawsuits in general. That has, of course, not stopped the Republican spin machine from vastly overstating Obama's role to further their own agenda.

[BeAChooser]

The basic idea of BAC's quote seemed to be that Obama is a liar and he's covering up some huge role in the anti-redlining lawsuit that was brought or at least funded by ACORN.

No, Dave. That is not a correct restatement of my complaint regarding the ties between Obama and ACORN. What my post shows is that Obama and his campaign have LIED REPEATEDLY about the extent of his (and their) involvement with ACORN, and Biden LIED about the extent in his response to West's question.

OK, first I took note of the fact that BAC didn't have anything to say about how significant minority loaning policies were with regard to the financial crisis.

Because that wasn't the point West, Biden or I were discussing. It's simply a distraction from the topic of the thread. The impression Biden tried to leave in the minds of viewers in his response to West is that Obama had nothing to do with ACORN. That he didn't help them or work closely with them. That Obama's campaign gave no money to ACORN. And that they gave him no help. That impression is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. Obama and ACORN are deeply involved with one another. They have been for almost 20 years. I tell you what Dave, if you want to talk about the bailout, why don't you tell folks about the attempt by democrats to include in the bailout package a provision that would have given 20% of any profits the government makes from the bailout (and some economists say it could be many billions) to groups like ACORN. Yes indeed, the ties are deep.

Just look at Project Vote. In 1992, Obama, as director of that project, helped register 150,000 voters on the Chicago's South Side to elect Democratic Senator Carol Moseley Braun. Obama's website claims ACORN was "not part of" Project Vote. That's a LIE. The organization's incorporation papers show Project Vote is a trademark name whose parent company is registered at the same New Orleans address in which ACORN and multiple ACORN affiliates are housed. Obama himself said at a recent ACORN meeting that "I've been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career. Even before I was an elected official, when I ran Project Vote voter registration drives in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it, and we appreciate your work." Given Obama's own words, how can you Obama supporters deny these ties with a straight face? Do you use botox to deaden the facial nerves? :D

[davefoc]

No, Dave. That is not a correct restatement of my complaint regarding the ties between Obama and ACORN. What my post shows is that Obama and his campaign have LIED REPEATEDLY about the extent of his (and their) involvement with ACORN, and Biden LIED about the extent in his response to West's question.

...



OK,
What exactly did either Obama or Biden say that you think is a lie.

Could you provide a quote?

Here's some stuff from Obama's web site:
Discredited Republican voter-suppression guru Ken Blackwell is attacking Barack Obama with naked lies about his supposed connection to ACORN.

• Fact: Barack was never an ACORN community organizer.
• Fact: ACORN never hired Obama as a trainer, organizer, or any type of employee.
• Fact: ACORN was not part of Project Vote, the successful voter registration drive Barack ran in 1992.

In his capacity as an attorney, Barack represented ACORN in a successful lawsuit alongside the U.S. Department of Justice against the state of Illinois to force state compliance with a federal voting access law. For his work helping enforce the law, called “Motor Voter,” Barack received the IVI-IPO Legal Eagle Award in 1995. (For more about Barack’s career, check out our
Obama bio)

Ken Blackwell is best known today for disenfranchising Democratic voters in his dual role as Ohio Secretary of State and chair of George Bush’s Ohio campaign in 2004. To see him shed crocodile tears for the integrity of the vote while making accusations about Barack and ACORN with absolutely no basis in fact is disturbing.



Is any of this stuff incorrect in your judgment?

[Seismosaurus]

Actually Seismo, you being over there and seeing that interview as a standard grilling could be a big help. When you have a few minutes look at the interview the same woman did with McCain and compare the two and give us your unbiased thoughts on how they compare vis a vis fairness if you would.

(paraphrased)
Question 1 : Acorn is a big deal, why aren't you attacking Obama?
Question 2 : Lewis says you are an evil racist, do you agree?
Question 3 : Are the Dems trying to stop you criticising Obama?
Question 4 : You're behind in the polls, can you win?
Question 5 : Are you going to fight in Florida or give up?

That's all he was asked. Two questions about issues which hurt Obama, one which makes Obama look like he's trying to stifle debate, and two basically asking if he really wants to be president.

Not ONE single question about McCain's policies, not one about criticism of him, not one about any controversy surrounding him. This was nowhere near a real political interview, those questions were designed to help McCain and make him look good. That TV station and reporter failed in their public duty to grill the politico and hold him up to public scrutiny.

I call shenanigans!

For the record, here's how British interviewers treat British politicians : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCo7qbzEX3c&feature=related

[BeAChooser]

What exactly did either Obama or Biden say that you think is a lie.

Could you provide a quote?

Here's some stuff from Obama's web site:

Is any of this stuff incorrect in your judgment?

[shakes head] Dave, you only prove you haven't even tried to comprehend anything I posted on this thread. You admitted you didn't even read the links I offered. Have you yet? I've clearly backed up why I think Obama and Biden have lied about Obama's association with ACORN ... even provided quotes by Obama that prove the claims on his website are false or at best lies by omission. This isn't rocket science but you do have to have your mind open to the possibility that not everything democrats tell you is true. And that's a step I don't think you have even begun to take. Let's look at the specific claims in more detail.


• Fact: Barack was never an ACORN community organizer.


This response is like Clinton's "is" defense during the Impeachment. Technically true but inherently dishonest. At least admit that Obama worked side by side with them on various projects in his capacity as a community organizer (and lawyer). Or can't you even bring yourself to do that, Dave?


• Fact: ACORN never hired Obama as a trainer, organizer, or any type of employee.


Again, this might be technically true (in that "is" sense) if he just donated his time when Talbot enlisted him to train ACORN community organizers. Is that what he did Dave ... because Obama has never been very forthcoming about those years. A Newsmax article (http://www.newsmax.com/lowell_ponte/obama_acorn_organizer/2008/10/13/139989.html ) notes how Obama has tried to hide the facts:


Los Angeles Times reporters Letta Tayler and Keith Herbert tried to clarify Obama’s past and found getting a clear fix on him elusive. “Further blurring the picture,” they wrote on March 2, are Barack Obama’s “descriptions of community organizing in his youthful memoir, ‘Dreams From My Father,’ in which he admits he disguises names, creates composite characters, switches some chronologies, and uses ‘approximation’ of dialogue.”


Obama is trying to hide what he did those years. Why, if it was so admirable?

That same Newsmax article notes that "ACORN spokesman Lewis Goldberg is referenced in the Oct. 11 New York Times as acknowledging that, in Times’ reporter Stephanie Strom’s words,'Mr. Obama conducted two leadership training sessions of roughly an hour each for ACORN’s Chicago affiliate over a three-year period in the late 1990s. He was not paid for that work, Mr. Goldberg said.'"

So I guess technically, if we believe an ACORN spokesperson, that Obama's camp might be able to claim he was never hired as an organizer. But is that the whole truth ... or can one lie by omission? He certainly was hired as a lawyer. And how many dollars are the votes that ACORN has gotten for Obama over the years worth to Obama? Perhaps we shouldn't be looking at Obama as an employee but seeing his relationship an exchange of services between two equals with common goals?

Toni Foulkes, a longtime Chicago ACORN leader, says ACORN was so impressed with Obama that they “invited Obama to our leadership training sessions to run the session on power every year, and, as a result, many of our newly developing leaders got to know him before he ever ran for office.” In fact, Newsmax states Obama gave training to ACORN every year from 1993 to about 2003, when Foulkes published the article in the journal Social Policy where he wrote the above. Maybe Obama didn't get "paid" "a salary" but surely ACORN's get-out-the-vote support for Obama through his entire political career has been a form of payment (or technically, re-payment).

In any case, the ties between Obama and this very radical organization ... which is so corrupt it recently registered to vote the same people multiple times (as many as 73 times), dead people, pets, under-aged children (even a 7 year-old) and offered cash and cigarettes as payment to get people to do that ... are obvious despite the denials on that Obama website and by Biden in that interview with West.


• Fact: ACORN was not part of Project Vote, the successful voter registration drive Barack ran in 1992.


Obama's own statement on this proves that is just a blatant lie. Here's what Barack said to ACORN members in 2007 at an ACORN meeting: “I’ve been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career. Even before I was an elected official, when I ran Project Vote voter registration drive in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it, and we appreciate your work.” ACORN "was smack dab in the middle of it".

As pointed out in the sources I linked earlier, ACORN leader "Foulkes makes it clear that this project was undertaken in direct partnership with Acorn."

An Investor's Business Daily article (http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=308790381199062 ) notes that Foulkes wrote "Obama then went on to run a voter registration project with Project VOTE in 1992 that made it possible for Carol Mosely Braun to win the Senate that year. Project Vote delivered 50,000 newly registered voters in that campaign (ACORN delivered about 5,000 of them)."

And here's what the above linked Newsmax article adds to the story:


Veteran journalist Karen Tumulty and two of her colleagues described Project Vote in the Oct. 18, 2004, issue of Time magazine as “a nonpartisan arm of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now” after interviewing its national director.

And the co-founder and then head of ACORN itself, former Students for a Democratic Society new leftist Wade Rathke described Project Vote, in 2004 as one of ACORN’s “family of organizations.”


So there is really no sense in denying that statement on the Obama website is false, Dave. Doing so will only make you look foolish.

And you might as well stop pretending there are no ties between Obama and ACORN. As noted in the above linked IBD article


Obama appreciates ACORN's work so much, and vice versa, that Obama last December promised to implement ACORN's agenda as president. On Dec. 1, 2007, Obama spoke at the Heartland Democratic Presidential Forum organized by Deepak Bhargava, executive director of the Center for Community Change. When asked if Obama would sit down with community organizers in the first 100 days of his presidency, Obama said, "Yes, but let me even say before I even get inaugurated, during the transition we'll be calling all of you (community organizers) in to help us shape the agenda."

Obama pledged before leaders of community organizing groups including Gamaliel and ACORN: "We're gonna be having meetings all across the country with community organizations so that you have input into the agenda for the next presidency of the United States of America."


So I really hope you undecided folks know what you are voting for if you vote for Obama. I hope you know what Obama means when he talks about "community organizers". [shakes head]

[davefoc]

BAC,
A few thoughts:
1. ACORN is not some horrible evil entity. ACORN is a left of center organization that focuses on signing up people to vote as far as I know. The election fraud that is touted as something so terrible does not seem to exist and if it did it wouldn't be ACORN's fault. If ACORN was guilty of anything it would be voter registration fraud. But it's far from clear that they are guilty of that. They sign up people to register people to vote. There seem to be laws that require them to turn over all registration forms even if they suspect that they are bogus. According to ACORN they sort out the apparently bogus ones and identify them as such when they turn them in. There is no evidence that ACORN is engaging in any efforts to get people to vote fraudulently by voting multiple times or voting when they aren't legally allowed to do so.

2. The anti-redlining lawsuits and laws that the people you quote have tried to blame the current financial crisis on probably have almost nothing to do with the current financial crisis. I am far from sure that the anti-redlining laws were a good idea but blaming the current crisis on them without putting forth any evidence is intellectually dishonest at a minimum.

3. I have no doubt that Obama associated himself with some left of center organizations. Philosophically, I'm probably about a moderate Republican and I'm sorry that Obama chose to hang out with left of center folks instead of moderate Republicans. But when I decided to vote against the current Republican Party and for the Democratic Party I didn't really expect to find a lot of candidates that did hang out with the moderate Republicans so I pretty much have accepted that I'm voting for a party that has a lot of candidates that have previously worked to get Democrats elected.

4. If Obama did hang out with ACORN or if he did play a role in winning an anti-redlining case I wouldn't see that as all that bad. But in fact Obama's association with anti-redlining cases seems to be fairly small. And his association with ACORN seems to be limited to what he has stated plus if your sources are correct Obama did some volunteer work for them.

5. I'm not going to read through your "sources". These are not "sources". They are partisan rants. I told you that I would read through some of them if you picked out ones that weren't partisan rants and that went to a particular issue.

The one issue that I will respond to in your post was this:

From Obama web site:
• Fact: ACORN was not part of Project Vote, the successful voter registration drive Barack ran in 1992. BAC response:
Obama's own statement on this proves that is just a blatant lie. Here's what Barack said to ACORN members in 2007 at an ACORN meeting:
BAC quoting Obama from 2007 ACORN meeting:
“I’ve been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career. Even before I was an elected official, when I ran Project Vote voter registration drive in Illinois, ACORN was smack dab in the middle of it, and we appreciate your work.” ACORN "was smack dab in the middle of it".BAC:
As pointed out in the sources I linked earlier, ACORN leader "Foulkes makes it clear that this project was undertaken in direct partnership with Acorn."
I don't see where you've presented any evidence that Obama is lying. ACORN and Project Vote were two different organizations. Obama didn't work for ACORN in either a volunteer capacity or a paid capacity on the voter drive project in question. It sounds like the two organizations did work together on the same project. Has Obama denied that? And if they did work together on the same voter registration project, so what?

If you're voting for Obama you need to accept the fact that he has worked on projects to increase the number of Democratic voters. If that seems terrible to you, you probably should consider not voting for Democrats because I suspect that they all pretty much have worked on projects to increase the number of Democratic voters.

[Herzblut]

Surprised about the ongoing voter fraud redneck rumble here since Obama's incredibly swift and tough knockdown bang on October 17th shut up the McShame campaign in an instant. Just correct me, if I'm wrong, rednecks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm3KCEkZbMc
http://www.bloggernews.net/118213

Obama camp alleges possible voter fraud conspiracy By McCain, RNC, Bush administration (http://www.bloggernews.net/118213)

Posted on October 17th, 2008
In a startling and frightening turn of political events. The Obama campaign officially requested United States Attorney General Michael Mukasey, Direct special prosecutor Nora Dannehy (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHgNArAPGAUc) to investigate credible allegations George W. Bush’s administration may be participating in collusion (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAYOYsAX8sQs&refer=home)with officials of the republican national committee and Senator John McCain’s campaign to suppress voter turnout (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a74yORYw2CEM)in key swing states.
The Obama camp wants Dannehy who is already investigating republicans for voter suppression in the 2006 election to expand her investigation to include possible FBI improprieties surrounding voter fraud in the presidential race which may include directives that come from the oval office itself. Obama’s campaign attorney said the investigation should look into a leak to the news media that the FBI is probing allegations of voter registration fraud by a grassroots organization called ACORN.
Obama campaign General counsel Robert Bauer wrote to Attorney General Michael Mukasey just a day after the Associated Press, citing unidentified law enforcement officials. Reported that the Federal Bureau of Investigation was investigating ACORN (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/17/ohio.voting/index.html).
Dannehy was the special prosecutor appointed by Mukasey to investigate improper political considerations that influenced the firings of nine U.S. attorneys. One U.S. Attorney lost his job in part for his refusal to pursue trumped up allegations of voter fraud against ACORN in the 2006 midterm election. Bauer alleges the FBI news leaks are part of a “coordinated effort by McCain’s presidential campaign and Republicans”. They are “fomenting specious vote-fraud allegations and there are disturbing indications of official involvement or collusion,” Bauer said.
“It is apparent,” he wrote, “that law enforcement officials are serving “improper political objectives” that could inhibit voter participation in the Nov. 4 election. The aim is to “suppress the vote and to unduly influence investigations and prosecutions,” Bauer claimed. It’s hard for this blogger to imagine John McCain has gone so far off the reservation, he knew of in advance or actually directed senior campaign staff’ to participate in this apparent attempt by the RNC and Bush white house to fix a United States Presidential election.
I am hopeful Senator McCain (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/)was unaware what his people were up to, That he has genuine plausible deniability when he is asked and he will be asked, Senator How much did you know and when did you know it.

psburton Blogger Nations

(my bold)

[leftysergeant]

How many times must the moronic right be reminded that the voter registration forms in question were issued to ACORN by the state, that the forms were numbered and ACCOUNTABLE?

Do you people understand what it means when, in officialese, a form is identified as "accountable?" That means that you turn it in, regardless the condition it is in at the end of the period for which it is used, even if some doofus ion your office has traced an outline of one of his body parts on it and signed his name in lipstick across it.

ACORN would have been committing a criminal act NOT to have turned in the bad forms.

ACORN got cheated by some unsavory characters.

whoop

Then they get screwed by rotten. lying maniacs like Hannity, BillO, Michael Wiener and the fat deaf junky with a dysfunction at the junction.

The hate-talk radio people would be better informed if they just turned off the radio and went back to conversing with their ear crickets.

[BeAChooser]

If ACORN was guilty of anything it would be voter registration fraud. But it's far from clear that they are guilty of that.

Dave, I think you are sticking your head in the ground. Don't you get a little bit suspicious when the vast majority of people this supposedly non-partisan organization signs up to vote register as democrats?

Dave, doesn't the fact that ACORN has been accused of voter fraud in over a dozen states since 2004 mean anything at all to you?

The Seattle Times reported that Washington State King Country prosecutors filed felony charges against seven ACORN people in what they described as the worst case of voter-registration fraud in state history. They pled guilty. According to sources, they submitted about 1800 fraudulent registration cards and admitted to "filling out registration forms with names they found in phone books”. They said they were under pressure from ACORN to increase their registration numbers by any means. In a settlement agreement in this case, ACORN acknowledge that fraudulent voter registrations were gathered and submitted illegally.

In Kansas City, Missouri, four ACORN employees were indicted in voter registration fraud. They submitted seven applications from one person. The explanation offered by ACORN member Todd Elkins is that the applicant was just being friendly. When an election official called one man to fill in some missing information, they discovered he'd been dead for 27 years. Ray James of the Kansas City Election Board said "This is not accidental." James said more than 15,000 registrations have problems such as duplicates, questionable or unreadable information, or names, addresses and Social Security numbers that don't match existing records. Jackson County Election Board Director Charlene Davis identified a 19-year-old woman who filed 11 applications to vote. Davis said they were turning over 1,300 questionable ACORN applications to federal investigators. And earlier, St. Louis election officials turned over 1,500 potentially fraudulent voter registration cards submitted by ACORN to investigators.

The Wall Street Journal reported that in 2004, an Ohio ACORN worker was given crack cocaine in exchange for fraudulent registrations that included underage voters, dead voters and voters with names like Mary Poppins, Dick Tracy and Jive Turkey. During a Congressional hearing in Ohio after the 2004 election, "officials from several counties in the state explained Acorn’s practice of dumping thousands of registration forms in their lap on the submission deadline, even though the forms had been collected months earlier. Thor Hearne of the American Center for Voting Rights said “You have to wonder what’s the point of that, if not to overwhelm the system and get phony registrations on the voter rolls.” You'd think that attention would have changed Ohio ACORN's ways. Hardly.

In November 2006, the Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that Cuyahoga County had more 20% registered voters than the number of adults in the county according to the US Census Bureau. A Cleveland TV station reported several specific instances where votes were cast by dead people. In 2007, an Ohio man was indicted on counts of illegal voting and false registration, after being registered by ACORN to vote in two separate counties. Currently, Cuyahoga County Board of Elections have accused ACORN workers of submitting fraudulent registration cards, saying that ACORN workers often hand in the same name on a number of voter registration cards, but with different addresses or dates of birth. A number of submitted names had the people living at an address that is a restaurant. ACORN has submitted over 75,000 voter registration cards to the Cuyahoga board this year. The voter registration department has received so many suspicious cards that it is compiling a binder with evidence that now is over an inch thick. One Cleveland man recently registered to vote 73 times via ACORN.

In 2005, during an effort to put an initiative on the ballot in New Mexico, ACORN employees forged thousands of signatures. Following their voter registration drive in 2004, a state Representative stated that ACORN was “manufacturing voters” throughout New Mexico. In September of this year, New Mexico election officials stated that over 1100 registration cards turned in by ACORN are suspicious and not all cards have been examined. Some cards had the same name as a voter who’d already registered, but carried a different birth date or Social Security number. Some cards listed someone else’s Social Security number. Some cards had addresses that don’t exist. A series of nine cards appeared to have been taken directly from the phone book. When called by the clerk’s office, some of the people whose names were on these cards said they never filled out the new cards. And this doesn't raise any red flag with you, Dave?

In Wisconsin 37 ACORN employees now face criminal investigation regarding voter fraud. According to Election Commission Executive Director Sue Edman, they appear to have falsified driver’s license numbers, Social Security numbers or other information on voter registration cards, registered dead people, or offered gifts in exchange for registering to vote. You think this isn't important? The 2004 Presidential election in Wisconsin was decided by just 11,000 votes. Yes, this matters.

In Louisiana, ACORN affiliate VOTING IS POWER has sent in batches of applications containing duplicates, cards filled out with different colors of ink, or using the names of pets and dead people. The registrar in Jefferson, Dennis A. DiMarco, said that about 35 percent of the 4,000 cards his office had sorted were invalid because they had no address, the applicant was already registered or was a felon, or the signature did not match one on file at the Department of Motor Vehicles. And one of the cards had his name and address on it, listing him as a democrat and African-American. He's white and republican, a little older than the age they gave him.

In Michigan, ACORN has enrolled more than 200,000 voters in just recent months. A spokesperson at the Michigan Secretary of State's office says "There appears to be a sizeable number of duplicate and fraudulent applications. IN Pontiac, where several thousand applications have been submitted by ACORN in the last few weeks, the clerk’s office is finding that numerous applications are sometimes filed under one name. The Secretary of State’s Office has turned over several of the applications to the U.S. Attorney’s Office.

In a 2005 letter to ACORN, the Virginia State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. And 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. “Additionally,” they wrote, “information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink." And let's note that the democrat Governor of VIrginia then fired the author of that letter. Surprise, surprise.

These stories are repeated over and over in many more states through multiple elections the past 5 years. And every single time ACORN has been caught they have claimed mistakes, poor training, bad management, dishonest low-level employees, etc, etc, etc and mainstream media gives them a pass. It's time to wise up, Dave, and see what's really going on. It's time to stop defending the indefensible. And time to stop pretending like Obama is not connected to ACORN. It's time to stop denying that Obama supporters are probably going to steal this election through a combination of voter registration fraud, vote fraud, illegal campaign funding and the complicit assistance of the mainstream media in failing to report the scope of these activities and the true nature of Obama's past and current associations with extreme leftist organizations and individuals.

According to ACORN they sort out the apparently bogus ones and identify them as such when they turn them in. There is no evidence that ACORN is engaging in any efforts to get people to vote fraudulently by voting multiple times or voting when they aren't legally allowed to do so.

And how do you square that belief with just the facts I just noted above (and I could have mentioned many others)? Do you do it by putting on your political agenda first and foremost?

I am far from sure that the anti-redlining laws were a good idea but blaming the current crisis on them without putting forth any evidence is intellectually dishonest at a minimum.

The evidence has been provided. You simply ignored it on those occasions, Dave. Like I said, if you want to discuss this, then add your comments to one of the threads where the mortgage crisis was the topic of the thread.

I have no doubt that Obama associated himself with some left of center organizations.

Well you shouldn't have any doubt at this point. But your phrasing it in that way is only an dishonest attempt to minimize the truly radical nature of Obama's associations, Dave.

ACORN is far left of center.

Ayers and his wife are far left of center.

Wright and his church are far left of center.

CODEPINK is far left of center.

The MDS is far left of center.

The reparations movement is far left of center.

The Socialist Party is far left of center.

His mentor Frank was far left of center.

Philosophically, I'm probably about a moderate Republican

Why is it I don't quite believe you, Dave?

If Obama did hang out with ACORN or if he did play a role in winning an anti-redlining case

It's not a question of "if he did", Dave.

And his association with ACORN seems to be limited to what he has stated plus if your sources are correct Obama did some volunteer work for them.

Here's Obama speaking about and to ACORN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU

As he says ... they are going to "SHAPE THE AGENDA".

I'm not going to read through your "sources".

You do what democrats ALWAYS do when faced with facts they can't challenge ... close your eyes and run from those facts.


ACORN and Project Vote were two different organizations.

Dave, I quoted ACORN members stating they were involved in Project Vote at the time. I quoted Obama thanking them for their involvement. How blind can you be?

Do you know who Zach Polett is? He founded Project Vote and headed it until very recently. Simultaneously he's served as ACORN’s political director. To claim these two organizations weren't and aren't connected only makes you look foolish.

Do you know who Anita MonCrief is? She was an Project Vote member who also worked in the Washington DC ACORN office from 2005 to 2008. Anita designed ACORN’s 2005, 2006 and 2007 Political Operations year end PowerPoint presentations. She's blown the whistle in a Pennsylvania start court. She has apparently made the following statements (http://thenma.org/blogs/index.php/gaynor ):


1. Project Vote has violated its 501(c)(3) status by using government and private grants that ultimately go directly or indirectly to ACORN (based on direct knowledge).

2. ACORN, Project Vote and Citizens Services Inc. (CSI) are essentially the same organization with different tax designations that are used to facilitate the transfer of money between them (based on direct and indirect knowledge).

3. ACORN has promoted a culture of dishonesty motivated by reaching target Voter Registration goals and senior staff have portrayed an attitude that allows for some "bad" cards in order to reach these goals (based on direct and indirect knowledge).

4. Karyn Gillette, Project Vote Development Director, Jeff Robinson, senior Project Vote "money man" and Nathan Henderson James, Project Vote Research and Political Director are all employed by CSI and may have worked directly with anyone seeking the services of CSI and money paid to CSI would have obvious ACORN ties (based on direct and indirect knowledge and documents).

5. Zach Polett, former Executive Director of Project Vote and former director of ACORN Political Operations mentioned that Obama had worked for us and that he even supervised him during a ACORN Political staff retreat in November 2007 (based on direct knowledge).


Moncrief has also testified (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleyindependent/teenscene/s_595810.html ) that the Obama campaign supplied ACORN with Obama's donor list in order that they could solicit contributions from those who had maxed out under federal limits. They were to be targeted to give to Project Vote and it was her job to identify such contributors. Yet Obama claims there is no link with his campaign. LIAR.

Do you want to continue this farce of yours, Dave? Your side on this forum may very well win this election but I want conversations like this on the record so that a year or two from now, when things are falling apart because of all the corruption and socialism Obama has brought to our government, you and others like you won't be able to deny that you ignored the obvious. :D

[davefoc]

BAC,
I am not a Democrat. I have been a registered Republican my entire voting life.

As to your points:
There are just too many to deal with. The basic idea that you put forth is that ACORN employees have been guilty of registration fraud. You didn't provide any links to the stories that you summarized but I'll accept your premise that some ACORN people have been guilty of registration fraud.

Have you been able to tie any of that to ACORN officers?

What was the nature of the ACORN employees convicted of registration fraud? Were these mavericks off on their own or was their a credible link to ACORN management with any of the convictions?

Of course most of the people they register are Democrats. That's their goal and they implement that goal by trying to register poor people who they think are more likely to be Democrats.

You also made an attempt to tie them to voter fraud and initiative fraud. To do that you need to link to the specific articles so that we have a better idea of what happened. You do realize that it is routine for about a large percentage of initiative signatures to be rejected? I have never heard fraud put forth as a reason but probably all initiative drives have fraud involved in them as the people paid to gather signatures push the envelope to get more signatures including ones that aren't legitimate.

[gdnp]

Dave, doesn't the fact that ACORN has been accused of voter fraud in over a dozen states since 2004 mean anything at all to you?
Voter fraud or voter registration fraud? ACORN or ACORN employees? How many accusations and how many convictions?

Don't you get a little bit suspicious when the vast majority of people this supposedly non-partisan organization signs up to vote register as democrats?No, they mostly register voters in poor minority neighborhoods. What percentage of African Americans are registered Democrat? 90%?


The Seattle Times reported that Washington State King Country prosecutors filed felony charges against seven ACORN people in what they described as the worst case of voter-registration fraud in state history. They pled guilty. According to sources, they submitted about 1800 fraudulent registration cards and admitted to "filling out registration forms with names they found in phone books”. They said they were under pressure from ACORN to increase their registration numbers by any means. In a settlement agreement in this case, ACORN acknowledge that fraudulent voter registrations were gathered and submitted illegally.How many of the people fraudulently registered voted?

In Kansas City, Missouri, four ACORN employees were indicted in voter registration fraud. They submitted seven applications from one person. The explanation offered by ACORN member Todd Elkins is that the applicant was just being friendly. When an election official called one man to fill in some missing information, they discovered he'd been dead for 27 years. Ray James of the Kansas City Election Board said "This is not accidental." James said more than 15,000 registrations have problems such as duplicates, questionable or unreadable information, or names, addresses and Social Security numbers that don't match existing records. Jackson County Election Board Director Charlene Davis identified a 19-year-old woman who filed 11 applications to vote. Davis said they were turning over 1,300 questionable ACORN applications to federal investigators. And earlier, St. Louis election officials turned over 1,500 potentially fraudulent voter registration cards submitted by ACORN to investigators.If a person fills out 7 cards they need to hand in 7 cards. Did the person try to vote 7 times? No? I didn't think so.

The Wall Street Journal reported that in 2004, an Ohio ACORN worker was given crack cocaine in exchange for fraudulent registrations that included underage voters, dead voters and voters with names like Mary Poppins, Dick Tracy and Jive Turkey. During a Congressional hearing in Ohio after the 2004 election, "officials from several counties in the state explained Acorn’s practice of dumping thousands of registration forms in their lap on the submission deadline, even though the forms had been collected months earlier. Thor Hearne of the American Center for Voting Rights said “You have to wonder what’s the point of that, if not to overwhelm the system and get phony registrations on the voter rolls.” You'd think that attention would have changed Ohio ACORN's ways. Hardly.And how many people were found to have voted fraudulently? None? thought so.

In November 2006, the Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that Cuyahoga County had more 20% registered voters than the number of adults in the county according to the US Census Bureau. A Cleveland TV station reported several specific instances where votes were cast by dead people. In 2007, an Ohio man was indicted on counts of illegal voting and false registration, after being registered by ACORN to vote in two separate counties.
Did he claim that ACORN encouraged him to vote twice? No? I didn;t think so.

Currently, Cuyahoga County Board of Elections have accused ACORN workers of submitting fraudulent registration cards, saying that ACORN workers often hand in the same name on a number of voter registration cards, but with different addresses or dates of birth. A number of submitted names had the people living at an address that is a restaurant. ACORN has submitted over 75,000 voter registration cards to the Cuyahoga board this year. The voter registration department has received so many suspicious cards that it is compiling a binder with evidence that now is over an inch thick. One Cleveland man recently registered to vote 73 times via ACORN. did he vote 73 times? No? I didn't think so.

In 2005, during an effort to put an initiative on the ballot in New Mexico, ACORN employees forged thousands of signatures. Following their voter registration drive in 2004, a state Representative stated that ACORN was “manufacturing voters” throughout New Mexico. In September of this year, New Mexico election officials stated that over 1100 registration cards turned in by ACORN are suspicious and not all cards have been examined. Some cards had the same name as a voter who’d already registered, but carried a different birth date or Social Security number. Some cards listed someone else’s Social Security number. Some cards had addresses that don’t exist. A series of nine cards appeared to have been taken directly from the phone book. When called by the clerk’s office, some of the people whose names were on these cards said they never filled out the new cards. And this doesn't raise any red flag with you, Dave?Indictments? Prosecutions? Convictions?

In Wisconsin 37 ACORN employees now face criminal investigation regarding voter fraud. According to Election Commission Executive Director Sue Edman, they appear to have falsified driver’s license numbers, Social Security numbers or other information on voter registration cards, registered dead people, or offered gifts in exchange for registering to vote. You think this isn't important? The 2004 Presidential election in Wisconsin was decided by just 11,000 votes. Yes, this matters.How many of these fraudulently registered people voted? None? didn't think so.

In Louisiana, ACORN affiliate VOTING IS POWER has sent in batches of applications containing duplicates, cards filled out with different colors of ink, or using the names of pets and dead people. The registrar in Jefferson, Dennis A. DiMarco, said that about 35 percent of the 4,000 cards his office had sorted were invalid because they had no address, the applicant was already registered or was a felon, or the signature did not match one on file at the Department of Motor Vehicles. And one of the cards had his name and address on it, listing him as a democrat and African-American. He's white and republican, a little older than the age they gave him.How many of these fraudulently registered people voted? None? didn't think so.

In Michigan, ACORN has enrolled more than 200,000 voters in just recent months. A spokesperson at the Michigan Secretary of State's office says "There appears to be a sizeable number of duplicate and fraudulent applications. IN Pontiac, where several thousand applications have been submitted by ACORN in the last few weeks, the clerk’s office is finding that numerous applications are sometimes filed under one name. The Secretary of State’s Office has turned over several of the applications to the U.S. Attorney’s Office.How many of these fraudulently registered people voted more than once? None? didn't think so.

In a 2005 letter to ACORN, the Virginia State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. And 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. “Additionally,” they wrote, “information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink." And let's note that the democrat Governor of VIrginia then fired the author of that letter. Surprise, surprise.Intentional voter fraud or voter registration fraud? How many of these fraudulently registered people voted? None? didn't think so.

It's time to stop denying that Obama supporters are probably going to steal this election through a combination of voter registration fraud, vote fraud, illegal campaign funding and the complicit assistance of the mainstream media in failing to report the scope of these activities and the true nature of Obama's past and current associations with extreme leftist organizations and individuals.voter registration fraud does not steal an election. Vote fraud steals elections. Scrolling through your diatribe, I find no more than a handful of assertions that ACORN's sloppy and/or fraudulent practices have actually led to ineligible votes being cast. Which is pretty much what other investigators have found. Thus the problem of bogus voter registrations has far less effect on the outcome of the elections than the much larger problem of voters stripped from registration rolls because of mismatches, often trivial, with other government databases. This is the real attempt to steal the election. And guess what? It's not the Democrats who have done it.

:D

[BeAChooser]

I am not a Democrat.

If you say so. But if you vote of Obama you might as well be one because you've drunk the koolaid.

The basic idea that you put forth is that ACORN employees have been guilty of registration fraud.

AND that ACORN is closely tied to Project Voter and Obama's campaign ... despite the denials.

And I notice you had no comment on Zach Polett and Anita MonCrief. Going to just ignore that?

You didn't provide any links to the stories that you summarized

Just use your browser. You'll encounter plenty of them. And you will be able to confirm every incidence of proven and suspected voter registration fraud on the part of ACORN employees that I named. Since you appear to want to continue this farce, would you like another example of ACORN's misdeeds?

In Florida, Brevard State Attorney Norm Wolfinger said he was considering handing off a controversial investigation into possible voter fraud by the group ACORN to the statewide prosecutor. Earlier this month, 23 suspicious voter registration applications were referred to Wolfinger by election officials. Duwayne Lungdren, Brevard assistant supervisor of elections, estimated that two-thirds of the registrations ACORN submitted were for people who were already registered.

Have you been able to tie any of that to ACORN officers?

Here's a news clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez6kKPcYbM0

reporting that in Cleveland Ohio "the head of ACORN ... snip ... told election officials that it cannot keep fraud out of it's voter registration operation." Why is this important? Because Florida is a contested battleground state.

And then it is pointed out that in every battleground state where Obama is suddenly ahead ACORN is active. Like they wonder ... I wonder ... is that just coincidence? It's noted that in Nevada ACORN claimed to have registered Tony Romo and Terrell Owens. In Indiana election officials had to throw out 11,000 fraudulent registrations. In Wisconson ACORN is illegally employing felons. In one Missouri county they found a 12 year registered and 800 phony registrations in all. Dave, this fraud is epidemic in proportion. And ACORN is at the middle of it.

What was the nature of the ACORN employees convicted of registration fraud? Were these mavericks off on their own or was their a credible link to ACORN management with any of the convictions?

Wow! You're sure bending over backwards in order to excuse ACORN and help ACORN elect Obama. I gather you were ok with the fact that Obama's unethical and illegal fundraising activities have probably destroyed the public finance system for good. And now you seem ok with his voter registration machine destroying the sanctity of the registration process too. And you claim you are a republican? :rolleyes:

Consider this ...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/27/wall.acorn/index.html


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Under FBI investigation, with about a dozen active and open state investigations for accusations of voter registration fraud, ACORN has got some explaining to do. And now even The New York Times has chastised the organization for "vastly overstating" its voter registration numbers.

... snip ...

It is a noble enough goal to combat past efforts to suppress the black vote and prevent voter "disenfranchisement." But just as the road to hell is paved with good intentions -- the good intentions of some is leading to an all-out path to destruction of the soul of our electoral process.

One Cleveland, Ohio, woman -- black, 20-something, first-time voter, being interviewed on television -- reported that she was "harassed" and "preyed upon" by ACORN workers each time she got off the bus. Each time she told them she had registered already and each time, they told her it was OK to do it again.

Eventually, she had registered six times and didn't realize she had done anything wrong until an election official noticed the discrepancy and called to notify the woman that her ability to vote could now be in jeopardy because she had registered so many times. What a travesty! Talk about disenfranchisement.

... snip ...

In an effort to defend itself, the organization claims it can't be expected to get every single registration right; after all, it has signed up at least 1 million new voters.

It was just a week or so ago, the group insisted, that we stay focused on all the "correct" signatures it had accumulated over the years. All 1.3 million of them. Now it turns out, according to a New York Times report, the number is closer to 450,000. Wow -- talk about self-inflation.

... snip ...

Obama should be held to a higher standard.

He is running for the highest office in our country -- and not only has he performed legal work for this group, but his campaign paid an ACORN affiliate more than $800,000 for "get-out-the-vote-efforts," and has received the endorsement of ACORN's political action committee.

... snip ...

The results of ACORN's registration misdeeds and alleged fraud could prove catastrophic, if not lead to widespread corruption of the election system. Author and columnist John Fund, who predicts rampant voter fraud this election and fears an "election train wreck," wrote "Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy."


If CNN is now starting to admit there is a problem, why can't you, Dave?

For all their claimed innocence, why do you think democrats and ACORN are dead set against requiring IDs to confirm the identity of voters when they vote? ACORN filed lawsuits in several states recently to prevent that from happening. And liberal courts have been disposed to preventing it from happening. But what is wrong with making sure the person voting is legitimate?

Of course most of the people they register are Democrats. That's their goal and they implement that goal by trying to register poor people who they think are more likely to be Democrats.

So you admit that ACORN is trying to register "people who they think are more likely to be democrats". Yet ACORN claims on their website (http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342 ) that they are "a non-profit, non-partisan social justice organization". LIARS.

Get a clue, Mr. "republican". Here's a good source: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-complete-guide-to-acorn-voter-fraud/ . It points out that ACORN was founded by one of most left wing activists in America, Wade Rathke, who was a member of SDS.

Do you understand that ACORN has been committing voter fraud from its inception, Dave? The above link notes that in 1986 in Missouri 12 ACORN members were convicted of voter fraud. In 2004, six members pled guilty to election law violations for registering dead people in St Louis. In 2005, another ACORN employee was convicted of voter fraud. Her name was Nonares Montgomery and she hired 30 workers who sat in a restaurant and wrote out names and information to create 1500 fraudulent cards. In October 2006 St Louis officials discovered another 1492 potentially fraudulent registrations. In November 2006, 20,000 to 35,000 questionable registration forms were submitted by ACORN in Missouri. Most were from St Louis and Kansas City. "The workers admitted on camera that they were coached to tell registrants to vote for Democrat Claire McCaskill". You'd think that after all that, the Missouri ACORN organization would make sure their workers were not violating the law. But no, in 2007, four more ACORN employees were indicted on voter fraud and 8 more ACORN employees plead guilty to election fraud in April of this year. You need to get a clue, Dave. This behavior is DELIBERATE. Which is why I'm all for appointing a special prosecutor to investigate ACORNs actions ... ALL OF THEM. Just make sure democrats don't have their thumb on whoever is chosen ... or you'll get the same result you got out of Ken Starr ... nothing.

You also made an attempt to tie them to voter fraud and initiative fraud. To do that you need to link to the specific articles so that we have a better idea of what happened.

What's the point in doing that when you already said you won't read the links I've provided. Don't be lazy ... use your browser. Be a skeptic where ACORN and Obama are concerned. Don't become a democrat.

[gdnp]

Hey gdnp ... are you against requiring photo ID at the time one votes? A Rasmussen poll found that 82 percent of Americans think that should be required. So why are ACORN and other democrat organizations/leaders (including Obama ... http://obama.senate.gov/press/050920-obama_introdu/ ) against that? Do they have something to hide, gdnp? :D

Nothing to hide. It is a well-known fact that the most common photo ID is a driver's license, and the people least likely to have driver's licenses are the urban poor--Just the group that that happens to be the most likely to vote democratic. Coincidence, BAC? I don't think so.

[leftysergeant]

Just for the record, and to find out what really motivates you ACORN haters, how do you feel about Rwal ID laws, and fingerprints or toher biometrics on a driver's license?

Gdnp pointed out that the urban poor often do not have driver's licenses. This is especially so for the elderly. A lot of Katrina victims had to evacuate wityhout their documents. How are they going to get ID?

Georgia really got cute about it. They offered to make akternative ID available...for an exhorbitant price.

Poll tax, anyone?

Before requiring ID, the states need to find a reasonable means of getting ID into the hands of every citizen who is not a barred felon. There are some logistical problems to be worked out first.

[gdnp]

Just for the record, and to find out what really motivates you ACORN haters, how do you feel about Rwal ID laws, and fingerprints or toher biometrics on a driver's license?

Gdnp pointed out that the urban poor often do not have driver's licenses. This is especially so for the elderly. A lot of Katrina victims had to evacuate wityhout their documents. How are they going to get ID?

Georgia really got cute about it. They offered to make akternative ID available...for an exhorbitant price.

Poll tax, anyone?

Before requiring ID, the states need to find a reasonable means of getting ID into the hands of every citizen who is not a barred felon. There are some logistical problems to be worked out first.
Hey, I'd be thrilled with a national ID card. It's the republicans and libertarians that think this will be the first step to taking away their guns.

[BeAChooser]

I just clicked on your first link. It is unadulterated total crap.

Fox News is dedicated to getting McCain elected. They have zero interest in intellectual honesty.

Speaking of intellectual dishonesty, Dave, I didn't ask you to bless the Fox News' analysis of the facts ... just note the facts that they cited ... verifiable facts.

The head of ACORN did tell election officials that they couldn't keep fraud out their voter registration operation.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/10/voterregistration_cant_be_tota.html "Kris Harsh, ACORN's head Cleveland organizer, blamed the elections board for not scrutinizing ACORN's suspicious cards. He said the group can't be expected to catch everything."

Forms registering Tony Romo and Terrel Owens to vote in Nevada were submitted by ACORN and the Nevada ACORN office was raided by the FBI.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/07/acorn_nevada_offices_raided.html "Instead, their office was raided Tuesday morning by agents of the Nevada Secretary of State and Attorney General who alleged in an application for a search warrant that ACORN had hired 59 felons through a work release program as canvassers and submitted nearly 300 apparently fraudulent voter registration cards as part of the drive. The submitted voter cards included addresses and names that do not exist in Nevada, duplicate registrations, names culled from telephone books and names of Dallas Cowboys players, an investigator for the Secretary of State alleged in his affidavit for a search warrant. One ex-employee of ACORN reached by the state investigator told him she began making up names for her forms on days when it was too hot to work outside. ACORN canvassers are paid by the hour. Ex-employees also said they were expected to collect 20 complete forms a shift or risk probation and termination, the investigator said in his affidavit."

Election officials did throw out 11,000 fraudulent registrations in Indiana.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10082008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_pro_barack_vote_fraud_drive_132618.htm?page=0 "Lake County, Ind., election officials this month rejected thousands of registration forms ACORN had turned in from its drives this summer. On a conference call yesterday, GOP officials noted that up to 11,000 of the applications were no good - tying up election officials and jeopardizing the voting rights of untold victims whose identities may have been stolen."

In fact, let me add this to that one:

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/indiana_acorn_rico/2008/10/29/145340.html


Indiana Secretary of State Todd Rokita said his office has found evidence of “multiple criminal violations,” possibly involving state and federal racketeering laws, in connection with fraudulent voter registration applications.

Rokita, Indiana’s top election official, sent a letter last week to U.S. Attorney David Capp and Michael Welch, special agent in charge of the FBI’s Indianapolis office, presenting the findings and requesting prosecution.

The letter also went to Bernard Carter, prosecutor in Lake County, Ind., where the probe turned up more than 1,400 fraudulent applications.

The allegations are aimed at the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), which is being investigated for similar issues in more than 10 other states, the Indianapolis Star reported.

ACORN officials have confirmed that the group submitted hundreds of potentially bogus registration applications earlier in October. The officials maintain that they are required by law to submit all applications they collect, and claim the organization was the victim of unscrupulous employees who collected the applications in Lake County.

But Rokita states in his letter that “complying with the law to submit legitimate applications does not allow ACORN officials to evade the law against knowingly submitting fraudulent applications.”

Submitting fraudulent applications is a Class D felony, according to the Star.

Rokita disclosed that a preliminary investigation indicated ACORN “violated Indiana’s Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) law.”


And in Wisconson ACORN did illegally employ felons.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10082008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_pro_barack_vote_fraud_drive_132618.htm?page=0 "Milwaukee, Wisc., officials last month discovered at least seven felons employed as voter-registration workers for ACORN and another affiliated group. (State law bans felons from such work.) They also uncovered a raft of problematic voter-registration cards."

And in Missouri a 12 year was indeed registered to vote by ACORN. http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=Yzc0ZjZhMjdjNzU5MzEzNGU0ODg3ODA5MThjNWZmMDc= "In Missouri, someone named Monica Ray registered ten times with the same signature and different birth dates. Elsewhere in the Show Me State, ACORN tried to register a 12-year-old."

In fact, ACORN even registered a 7 year old: "In Connecticut, O’jahnae Smith and her family were stunned to learn she is a registered voter. At age seven, voting is above her pay grade. Nonetheless, an ACORN worker tried to register her by forging Smith’s name on an application and claiming she was 27 years old."

And they also registered a 13 year old in New Mexico.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BU29aeF_Fg

Don't these FACTS cause you the least bit of concern, "republican"?

gdnp made quite an effort to get you to understand the difference between voter fraud and registration fraud.

Evidently you and gdnp missed the convictions of individuals who in the past went to different polling areas and voted using multiple identities ... because ACORN and Obama don't want photo ID used.

Evidently you and gdnp do not understand the way in which mail-in ballots can be used to take illegal registrations and VOTE. You see, there is no means of verifying the identity of a 12 year old in a mail-in ballot. In fact, in recent threads here at JREF, your side was boasting about how the election is already over based on the number of mail-in and absentee ballots already cast and how they are presumably going to Obama in great numbers.

You have chosen to ignore that and post a link to a Fox News story that is not only ignoring it, they are taken something said by ACORN out of context and distorting it and then they are making a leap that somebody has tried to steal the election.

They took nothing out of context, Dave. But you go ahead and keep demonstrating what a life long "republican" you were. :rolleyes:

If truth matters Fox News is scum.

Dave, I have a question for you. What do you consider a truthful news source? Please list a few for us. In fact, why not offer a few example news reports from them on the Obama and ACORN issue. I'm betting I can demonstrate they are just as biased, if not more biased, then Fox News. Or any of the other sources I've cited. Will you answer this question or will you run?

The fact that you continue to see them as some sort of a source for anything makes any kind of discussion with you that is oriented towards a search for truth useless.

Dave, I demonstrated above that every fact I cited that was reported by Fox News can be verified. Now it's your turn. Name the news sources you consider truthful. Let's see where YOU have been getting your *facts*. ;)

Here's a news flash. Your precious Republicans have been the most fiscally irresponsible and the most corrupt bunch of slime over the last seven years that has ever been in charge of the governance of the US.

Just continue demonstrating that you didn't lie to us when you claimed you were a "moderate" life long republican. :rolleyes:

Let's be totally candid, Dave. You don't give a damn about fiscal responsibility. You are going to vote for a party that wasted over 10 trillion dollars on welfare the last 45 years and which at every turn has claimed whatever is spent on a social problems is not enough. You support a socialist and a party that have promised trillions more in social spending than we already spend ... who even promised another trillion in welfare to fight global poverty. A socialist and a party that has offered no means of funding that largess outside of increased taxation and wealth redistribution policies which REAL economists warn will be catastrophic to our economy, especially in a time of recession. You ignore the fact that democrats were at the center of much of the misconduct in the mortgage industry which is now causing so much trouble.

That 4.5 trillion dollars that they spent that the US didn't have wasn't spent for the benefit of the general public it was spent for the benefit of Republican cronies.

PROVE IT, "republican". Let's see your sources.

ETA: If you want to be worried about voter suppression this will give you something to work on for awhile:


Dave, your link doesn't work. It just sends one to your post on this thread. But not being as lazy as you seem to be, I took the time to plug the url directly into my browser.

"TPM Muckraker"? I certainly hope you offer more than this as a demonstration of your unbiased, truthful sources. And you had the gall to complain about Fox News being biased? ROTFLOL!

Who are Zachary Roth and Kate Klonick, who wrote the article you linked?

Let's take a look.

Zachary Roth recently claimed the press is "in the tank for McCain". Really? :D

He calls Keith Olbermann a "liberal sophisticate". Really? :D

In 2007 in an article titled "How to Finish off the GOP Machine" Roth wrote "any serious effort to clean up Washington must break the connection between money and elections. The only way to do that is to provide candidates for office with public revenue to run their campaigns". Yet when Obama then broke a pledge to use public financing and effectively destroyed any hope in the future of public financing being the norm in presidential races, he goes totally mum.

This is a Columbia educated journalist (meaning very liberal) who made the dishonest claim recently that "In recent presidential elections, anyone paying a basic amount of attention to the race has gone to the polls understanding one clear and compelling difference between the candidates: that the Democrat would pick judges who would vote to uphold Roe v. Wade, ensuring that abortion remains legal, and that the Republican would, in all likelihood, pick judges who would vote to overturn it". When he wrote the above, out of 12 justices appointed by republicans since Nixon, seven voted in favor of Roe and Casey (which affirmed the central decision of Roe) and only 3 voted against Roe or Casey. And I wonder if Roth had anything to say about Obama voting (all by himself, by the way) in favor of killing a fetus that is born live during an attempted late term abortion. Doubt it.

Kate Klonick got her education at Brown (very liberal). I challenge you to find politically related articles by her that don't demonstrate her leanings. Nearly everything she writes is a hit piece against republicans. And in a hypocritical manner (given that she seems to champion women in the work place) she's taken a particular dislike to Palin, even going so far as to attack her for having a ... tanning bed. :rolleyes:

Actually, Dave, I just think the name of your source says it all. The MUCKRAKER. :D

[BeAChooser]

It is a well-known fact that the most common photo ID is a driver's license, and the people least likely to have driver's licenses are the urban poor--Just the group that that happens to be the most likely to vote democratic.

Any citizen of the US can walk into any DMV in the US and get an official state photo ID that has nothing to do with driving (but looks a lot like a driver's license). If the poor want to vote, that's all they have to do. So there really is no excuse for being against requiring photo IDs to vote. By the way, my son, who doesn't have a driver's license, has such an official photo ID.

America (or at least the America our founders envisioned) promised something very important. Equal opportunity. And everyone has the opportunity to go get an official photo ID. So I don't buy the excuse you just gave, democrat. I think you are hiding something.

And by the way folks ... keep in mind that Obama is also in favor of giving our most common photo ID to illegal aliens. So he'll fight for illegal aliens to get them but put no effort into seeing that poor Americans have them. :D

[Dr Adequate]

Dave, I think you are sticking your head in the ground. Don't you get a little bit suspicious when the vast majority of people this supposedly non-partisan organization signs up to vote register as democrats?

Dave, doesn't the fact that ACORN has been accused of voter fraud in over a dozen states since 2004 mean anything at all to you?

The Seattle Times reported that Washington State King Country prosecutors filed felony charges against seven ACORN people in what they described as the worst case of voter-registration fraud in state history. They pled guilty. According to sources, they submitted about 1800 fraudulent registration cards and admitted to "filling out registration forms with names they found in phone books”. They said they were under pressure from ACORN to increase their registration numbers by any means. In a settlement agreement in this case, ACORN acknowledge that fraudulent voter registrations were gathered and submitted illegally.

In Kansas City, Missouri, four ACORN employees were indicted in voter registration fraud. They submitted seven applications from one person. The explanation offered by ACORN member Todd Elkins is that the applicant was just being friendly. When an election official called one man to fill in some missing information, they discovered he'd been dead for 27 years. Ray James of the Kansas City Election Board said "This is not accidental." James said more than 15,000 registrations have problems such as duplicates, questionable or unreadable information, or names, addresses and Social Security numbers that don't match existing records. Jackson County Election Board Director Charlene Davis identified a 19-year-old woman who filed 11 applications to vote. Davis said they were turning over 1,300 questionable ACORN applications to federal investigators. And earlier, St. Louis election officials turned over 1,500 potentially fraudulent voter registration cards submitted by ACORN to investigators.

The Wall Street Journal reported that in 2004, an Ohio ACORN worker was given crack cocaine in exchange for fraudulent registrations that included underage voters, dead voters and voters with names like Mary Poppins, Dick Tracy and Jive Turkey. During a Congressional hearing in Ohio after the 2004 election, "officials from several counties in the state explained Acorn’s practice of dumping thousands of registration forms in their lap on the submission deadline, even though the forms had been collected months earlier. Thor Hearne of the American Center for Voting Rights said “You have to wonder what’s the point of that, if not to overwhelm the system and get phony registrations on the voter rolls.” You'd think that attention would have changed Ohio ACORN's ways. Hardly.

In November 2006, the Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that Cuyahoga County had more 20% registered voters than the number of adults in the county according to the US Census Bureau. A Cleveland TV station reported several specific instances where votes were cast by dead people. In 2007, an Ohio man was indicted on counts of illegal voting and false registration, after being registered by ACORN to vote in two separate counties. Currently, Cuyahoga County Board of Elections have accused ACORN workers of submitting fraudulent registration cards, saying that ACORN workers often hand in the same name on a number of voter registration cards, but with different addresses or dates of birth. A number of submitted names had the people living at an address that is a restaurant. ACORN has submitted over 75,000 voter registration cards to the Cuyahoga board this year. The voter registration department has received so many suspicious cards that it is compiling a binder with evidence that now is over an inch thick. One Cleveland man recently registered to vote 73 times via ACORN.

In 2005, during an effort to put an initiative on the ballot in New Mexico, ACORN employees forged thousands of signatures. Following their voter registration drive in 2004, a state Representative stated that ACORN was “manufacturing voters” throughout New Mexico. In September of this year, New Mexico election officials stated that over 1100 registration cards turned in by ACORN are suspicious and not all cards have been examined. Some cards had the same name as a voter who’d already registered, but carried a different birth date or Social Security number. Some cards listed someone else’s Social Security number. Some cards had addresses that don’t exist. A series of nine cards appeared to have been taken directly from the phone book. When called by the clerk’s office, some of the people whose names were on these cards said they never filled out the new cards. And this doesn't raise any red flag with you, Dave?

In Wisconsin 37 ACORN employees now face criminal investigation regarding voter fraud. According to Election Commission Executive Director Sue Edman, they appear to have falsified driver’s license numbers, Social Security numbers or other information on voter registration cards, registered dead people, or offered gifts in exchange for registering to vote. You think this isn't important? The 2004 Presidential election in Wisconsin was decided by just 11,000 votes. Yes, this matters.

In Louisiana, ACORN affiliate VOTING IS POWER has sent in batches of applications containing duplicates, cards filled out with different colors of ink, or using the names of pets and dead people. The registrar in Jefferson, Dennis A. DiMarco, said that about 35 percent of the 4,000 cards his office had sorted were invalid because they had no address, the applicant was already registered or was a felon, or the signature did not match one on file at the Department of Motor Vehicles. And one of the cards had his name and address on it, listing him as a democrat and African-American. He's white and republican, a little older than the age they gave him.

In Michigan, ACORN has enrolled more than 200,000 voters in just recent months. A spokesperson at the Michigan Secretary of State's office says "There appears to be a sizeable number of duplicate and fraudulent applications. IN Pontiac, where several thousand applications have been submitted by ACORN in the last few weeks, the clerk’s office is finding that numerous applications are sometimes filed under one name. The Secretary of State’s Office has turned over several of the applications to the U.S. Attorney’s Office.

In a 2005 letter to ACORN, the Virginia State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. And 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. “Additionally,” they wrote, “information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink." And let's note that the democrat Governor of VIrginia then fired the author of that letter. Surprise, surprise.

These stories are repeated over and over in many more states through multiple elections the past 5 years. And every single time ACORN has been caught they have claimed mistakes, poor training, bad management, dishonest low-level employees, etc, etc, etc and mainstream media gives them a pass. It's time to wise up, Dave, and see what's really going on. It's time to stop defending the indefensible. And time to stop pretending like Obama is not connected to ACORN. It's time to stop denying that Obama supporters are probably going to steal this election through a combination of voter registration fraud, vote fraud, illegal campaign funding and the complicit assistance of the mainstream media in failing to report the scope of these activities and the true nature of Obama's past and current associations with extreme leftist organizations and individuals.



And how do you square that belief with just the facts I just noted above (and I could have mentioned many others)? Do you do it by putting on your political agenda first and foremost?



The evidence has been provided. You simply ignored it on those occasions, Dave. Like I said, if you want to discuss this, then add your comments to one of the threads where the mortgage crisis was the topic of the thread.



Well you shouldn't have any doubt at this point. But your phrasing it in that way is only an dishonest attempt to minimize the truly radical nature of Obama's associations, Dave.

ACORN is far left of center.

Ayers and his wife are far left of center.

Wright and his church are far left of center.

CODEPINK is far left of center.

The MDS is far left of center.

The reparations movement is far left of center.

The Socialist Party is far left of center.

His mentor Frank was far left of center.



Why is it I don't quite believe you, Dave?



It's not a question of "if he did", Dave.



Here's Obama speaking about and to ACORN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU

As he says ... they are going to "SHAPE THE AGENDA".



You do what democrats ALWAYS do when faced with facts they can't challenge ... close your eyes and run from those facts.



Dave, I quoted ACORN members stating they were involved in Project Vote at the time. I quoted Obama thanking them for their involvement. How blind can you be?

Do you know who Zach Polett is? He founded Project Vote and headed it until very recently. Simultaneously he's served as ACORN’s political director. To claim these two organizations weren't and aren't connected only makes you look foolish.

Do you know who Anita MonCrief is? She was an Project Vote member who also worked in the Washington DC ACORN office from 2005 to 2008. Anita designed ACORN’s 2005, 2006 and 2007 Political Operations year end PowerPoint presentations. She's blown the whistle in a Pennsylvania start court. She has apparently made the following statements (http://thenma.org/blogs/index.php/gaynor ):



Moncrief has also testified (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleyindependent/teenscene/s_595810.html ) that the Obama campaign supplied ACORN with Obama's donor list in order that they could solicit contributions from those who had maxed out under federal limits. They were to be targeted to give to Project Vote and it was her job to identify such contributors. Yet Obama claims there is no link with his campaign. LIAR.

Do you want to continue this farce of yours, Dave? Your side on this forum may very well win this election but I want conversations like this on the record so that a year or two from now, when things are falling apart because of all the corruption and socialism Obama has brought to our government, you and others like you won't be able to deny that you ignored the obvious. :D I could almost swear that once I saw your ravings on this subject in a thread where they were on-topic.

[daredelvis]

I could almost swear that once I saw your ravings on this subject in a thread where they were on-topic.

And by quoting that rant you forced me to use the page down key several times to get through the BAC spew. That defeats the purpose of putting him on ignore.

Daredelvis

[leftysergeant]

America (or at least the America our founders envisioned) promised something very important. Equal opportunity. And everyone has the opportunity to go get an official photo ID. So I don't buy the excuse you just gave, democrat. I think you are hiding something.

No. You are ignoring the fact that various states have different criteria for issuing such ID, and that some make it as hard as possible for the old and poor to get them. Do you have a copy of your birth certifdicate handy somewhere? Are you absoultely sure that you wil be able to replace it if you are driven out of your home by a fire or other catsatrophe when you are 70?

You live in a fantasy world if you do believe that.

And by the way folks ... keep in mind that Obama is also in favor of giving our most common photo ID to illegal aliens. So he'll fight for illegal aliens to get them but put no effort into seeing that poor Americans have them. :D

Hey, wake up. I do not know of a state that does not require that an aplicant specify on his application his place and date of birth. From that, the registrar can determine whether or not the applicant is also eligible to vote without further documentation. FAIL.

[gdnp]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/07/acorn_nevada_offices_raided.html "Instead, their office was raided Tuesday morning by agents of the Nevada Secretary of State and Attorney General who alleged in an application for a search warrant that ACORN had hired 59 felons through a work release program as canvassers and submitted nearly 300 apparently fraudulent voter registration cards as part of the drive. The submitted voter cards included addresses and names that do not exist in Nevada, duplicate registrations, names culled from telephone books and names of Dallas Cowboys players, an investigator for the Secretary of State alleged in his affidavit for a search warrant. One ex-employee of ACORN reached by the state investigator told him she began making up names for her forms on days when it was too hot to work outside. ACORN canvassers are paid by the hour. Ex-employees also said they were expected to collect 20 complete forms a shift or risk probation and termination, the investigator said in his affidavit."
Thank you for confirming that this is registration fraud perpetuated by individual ACORN employees attempting to make quotas, not part of a grand vote fraud conspiracy by ACORN to steal the election. :D

Any citizen of the US can walk into any DMV in the US and get an official state photo ID that has nothing to do with driving (but looks a lot like a driver's license). If the poor want to vote, that's all they have to do. So there really is no excuse for being against requiring photo IDs to vote. By the way, my son, who doesn't have a driver's license, has such an official photo ID.Really? I can walk into a New York State DMV and get an official NY state ID even though I live in New Jersey? I didn't know that. I also didn't know that DMV offices were situated conveniently for those who don't have cars. Go figure. And it's great that the DMV is in charge of handing them out. I can't think of a government agency that has a better reputation for prompt, courteous service. Gee, I sure hope these IDs are free. Well, at least inexpensive. You wouldn't want to make people take a day off work and get a ride to a DMV office and then have to pay $40 or $50 for an ID they don't otherwise need just so they could vote.

Evidently you and gdnp do not understand the way in which mail-in ballots can be used to take illegal registrations and VOTE. You see, there is no means of verifying the identity of a 12 year old in a mail-in ballot. In fact, in recent threads here at JREF, your side was boasting about how the election is already over based on the number of mail-in and absentee ballots already cast and how they are presumably going to Obama in great numbers.

Really? In Florida there is the fear that a large number of first-time voters will have their legitimate votes discarded because they fail to comply with the law that states they must submit a copy of their photo ID with their absentee vote.

ID requirements for first-time voters: (http://www.longdistancevoter.org/florida)

If you are a first-time Florida voter and you do not have an Florida driver's license number or Florida identification number, then you must include a copy of your ID with your voter registration form. If you don't, you'll need to provide ID the first time you vote in person or by absentee ballot. Acceptable forms of ID include: a copy of a photo ID that shows your name (U.S Passport, employee ID, buyers club ID, debit/credit card, military ID, student ID, retirement center ID, neighborhood association ID, public assistance ID); OR a copy of a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or government document that shows your name and Florida address.

Elderly (65 years or old), disabled, overseas, and military voters are exempt from this requirement.

The number of legitimate votes discarded for technical reasons will surely outnumber the fraudulent votes submitted.

[BeAChooser]

You are ignoring the fact that various states have different criteria for issuing such ID, and that some make it as hard as possible for the old and poor to get them. Do you have a copy of your birth certifdicate handy somewhere? Are you absoultely sure that you wil be able to replace it if you are driven out of your home by a fire or other catsatrophe when you are 70?

Nonsense. Yes. Yes. And VERY FEW of the poor have been "driven out of" their home by fire or "catsatrophe" (sic).

Here's Ohio's requirement for getting a non-driver photo ID card (I picked Ohio because it's a state where ACORN and democrats have argued a photo ID shouldn't be required to vote):

http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/driver_license/id_card.htm

http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/driver_license/aid.htm

http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/driver_license/pd.htm

http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/driver_license/sd.htm

Now surely, even 99% of the poor can meet that standard.

And that 1%. Well if that's a problem fix it. Don't use it as an excuse to allow rampant voter fraud by democrats.

Hey, wake up. I do not know of a state that does not require that an aplicant specify on his application his place and date of birth.

Hey, wake up. The problem is that ACORN has been submitting tens of thousands of registration cards (that we know of) with bogus birth dates and places of birth. FAIL.

[gdnp]

Here's Ohio's requirement for getting a non-driver photo ID card (I picked Ohio because it's a state where ACORN and democrats have argued a photo ID shouldn't be required to vote):

http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/driver_license/id_card.htm

http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/driver_license/aid.htm

http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/driver_license/pd.htm

http://www.bmv.ohio.gov/driver_license/sd.htm

Now surely, even 99% of the poor can meet that standard.

And that 1%. Well if that's a problem fix it. Don't use it as an excuse to allow rampant voter fraud by democrats.



Let's see. Of the acceptable primary documents, I can come up with a birth certificate, a passport, and a driver's license. Still, I would imagine that there are people out there who could come up with none of these. Of the acceptable secondary documents, I can easily come up with a credit card, an employer identification card, and a health insurance card. Then again, if I were unemployed and without a credit card I would be scrambling to try to find some medical treatment records. I might still be out of luck since one of the requirements is that one of the documents must include your social security number, and I lost my social security card 20 years ago.

So sorry, BAC, this is not a trivial requirement.

BTW, the $8.50 fee is not a lot, but would still be a disincentive to some.

[BeAChooser]

Does being acute(ly) asinine come with being a libertarian?

Why would you think I'm a libertarian? :D

Conceding the point that new voters signed up by ACORN in Florida who vote absentee do not bypass the photo ID requirement, and are thus unlikely to vote fraudulently?

http://www.longdistancevoter.org/florida


ID requirements for first-time voters:

If you are a first-time Florida voter and you do not have an Florida driver's license number or Florida identification number, then you must include a copy of your ID with your voter registration form.* If you don't, you'll need to provide ID the first time you vote in person or by absentee ballot. Acceptable forms of ID include: a copy of a photo ID that shows your name (U.S Passport, employee ID, buyers club ID, debit/credit card, military ID, student ID, retirement center ID, neighborhood association ID, public assistance ID); OR a copy of a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or government document that shows your name and Florida address.

Elderly (65 years or old), disabled, overseas, and military voters are exempt from this requirement.


http://www.kpcnews.com/articles/2008/01/09/news/today/evening_star/doc478441f2313a5420740819.prt


Faye Buis-Ewing, 72, who has been telling the media she is a 50-year resident of Indiana, at one point in the past few years also claimed two states as her primary residence and received a homestead exemption on her property taxes in both states.

Monday night from her Florida home, Ewing said she and her husband, Kenneth, “winter in Florida and summer in Indiana.” She admitted to registering to vote in both states, but stressed that she’s never voted in Florida. She also has a Florida driver’s license, but when she tried to use it as her photo ID in the Indiana elections in November 2006, poll workers wouldn’t accept it.

Subsequently, Ewing became a sort-of poster child for the opposition when the Indiana League of Women Voters (ILWV) told media that the problems Ewing had voting that day show why the high court should strike down the law.

But Indiana Republican Secretary of State Todd Rokita said Monday Ewing’s tale illustrates exactly why Indiana needs the law.

“This shows that the Indiana ID law worked here, which also calls into question why the critics are so vehemently against this law, especially with persons like this, who may not have a legal right to vote in this election,” Rokita said.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27166150/


WASHINGTON - If you want a guide to how absentee ballots can be used to subvert an election, the Indiana Supreme Court has one for you.

The court’s decision in a case called Pabey v. Pastrick makes for instructive reading — especially in light of the fears some Republicans are voicing that Democrats may resort to fraud to win some states on Nov. 4.

The court found that in the 2003 Democratic primary for mayor of East Chicago, Ind., campaign workers for incumbent Mayor Robert Pastrick:

• pressured and coaxed first-time voters or those who were “less informed or lacking in knowledge of the voting process, the infirm, the poor, and those with limited skills in the English language” to vote by absentee ballot;
• paid voters in cash for casting absentee ballots;
• instructed people applying for absentee ballots to phone the Pastrick campaign when the applicant received his or her ballot so that Pastrick supporters could go to their home and “though not authorized by law to do so, ‘assist’ the voter in completing the ballot;”
• illegally kept a stockpile of unmarked absentee ballots and delivered ballots to voters;
• lied about whether the person applying for an absentee ballot would in fact be absent on the day of the primary. (Indiana law requires a voter to have a reasonable expectation of being absent from the state or to be ill or caring for an ill person in order to get an absentee ballot.)

Pastrick won 5,228 votes to challenger George Pabey’s 4,949 votes.


http://www.slate.com/id/2105524/


But most of the fraud that has dogged Florida centers on absentee ballots. In the mayoral election mentioned above, approximately 5,000 absentee ballots were found to be fraudulent. Some folks were unaware they had voted, some did not live in Miami, and (naturally, being Florida) some were dead. In addition, many of the ballots had the same witness. One Miami vegetable peddler had witnessed more than 70 absentee ballots. And some of the city's poorest had been paid $10 to vote for Suarez. Without the state's witness requirement, officials would never have been able to prove that the absentee ballots were bogus. Buying ballots is another current problem. In 1998, an election volunteer was caught selling ballots to undercover agents. And just last week, the Cuban exile columnist Max Lesnik reported that absentee ballots were being sold on Miami's Calle Ocho for $25 apiece.

[Herzblut]

What was it someone said to me recently? Getting desperate?

When I said I was surprised, that was more in the sense of being amused.



I hope that a special prosecutor is appointed to look into matters relating to ACORN. ALL OF THEM. Obama's campaign claims the allegations of vote fraud are spurious. Let's see if they are. He should also investigate Obama's campaign funding. So you still game, Herzblut? :D

Just let Nora Dannehy do her job, she's a pit bull.

And she's already dealing with the subject and investigating against the Bush administration and the reps which allegedly thwarted constitutionally granted voters' rights in 2000 and 2004 (and 2008). So, from now on, each public McCain allegation will directly move onto her desk.

And you know, I have the sneaking suspicion, that's exactly why McCain all of the sudden shuts the **** up. What do you think?

[gdnp]

NONSENSE. <snip>

I urge you to, instead of spamming the site with links, to examine the circularity of your logic.

One can get a state voter photo ID...If they can prove their identity with a birth certificate and social security card

One can get a copy of their birth certificate...If they can prove their identity with a passport and social security card

One can get a copy of their social security card...If they have a certified copy of their birth certificate or other documents proving their identity.

I'm not saying that we should let people register to vote without identification. In fact, I would favor a national ID card. I simply wish to repeat that for some people, obtaining a photo ID is not a trivial endeavor. My wife had to go to the DMV 3 times the last time they renewed her driver's license due to changed documentation requirements and incorrect information from the DMV. I'll repeat that: this was a renewal: she had had a valid state license for 8 years, and it still took 3 trips to renew.

[gdnp]

Why would you think I'm a libertarian?

It's that "Beggars and Choosers" thing you keep coming back to :D

[Tricky]

Relavant posts added to this thread from "Obama Campaign orders TV station (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=127254)..." thread.

Please keep responses civil or next stop will be AAH.

[Dr Adequate]

I could almost swear that once I saw your ravings on this subject in a thread where they were on-topic. Wow, talk about "quoted out of context".

[gdnp]

As long as they are Relavant we are OK? ;)

[BeAChooser]

And you know, I have the sneaking suspicion, that's exactly why McCain all of the sudden shuts the **** up. What do you think?

Well I know I don't need to use foul language to make my point. :D

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Nora finds. And hope she really is a pit bull and non-partisan (one get's nervous when democrats name the special prosecutor they want investigating something). And since she's being asked to investigate whether the Justice Department and White House officials are supporting the McCain-Palin campaign by trying to suppress the vote, she should also investigate ACORN itself to find out if it and it's relationship with Obama are as above board as Obama supporters now claim. Fair enough? And if she should find that the answer to all three questions is no, will you join me in calling for Obama's impeachment should he be elected? Afterall, then we might conclude that this tactic by Obama is an obvious attempt to impede an FBI investigation into ACORN's practices. :D

[leftysergeant]

"Kris Harsh, ACORN's head Cleveland organizer, blamed the elections board for not scrutinizing ACORN's suspicious cards. He said the group can't be expected to catch everything."

ACORN has spent millions of dollars sorting and vetting the applications. They have to turn all of them in. They are accountable forms. Stop shrieking about it. ACORN does not issue the voter's card. The states do.

Forms registering Tony Romo and Terrel Owens to vote in Nevada were submitted by ACORN and the Nevada ACORN office was raided by the FBI.

ACORN themselves identified those as probably bogus, but they had to turn the cards in anyway, in a bundle identified as spurious. More pointless shrieking.

In 2007 in an article titled "How to Finish off the GOP Machine" Roth wrote "any serious effort to clean up Washington must break the connection between money and elections. The only way to do that is to provide candidates for office with public revenue to run their campaigns". Yet when Obama then broke a pledge to use public financing

Document that he only sources I have for that are totally in the tank for McCain. They lie a lot.

[BeAChooser]

I urge you to, instead of spamming the site with links

... that prove it wouldn't be as much a financial hardship on poor people to get replacement documentation as you led readers to believe? :D

One can get a copy of their birth certificate...If they can prove their identity with a passport and social security card

This is not true. One can get a replacement birth certificate without a passport or social security card. For example, to get a certificate in New Mexico by mail you do the following:

http://dohewbs2.health.state.nm.us/VitalRec/Birth%20Certificates.htm#mail

There is nothing about passports or social security cards.

And once you have the birth certificate, it can be used to get the other documentation you lost.

And by the way, Tricky, I don't see why you had to move gdnp's post from the other thread. There, it seemed to make sense in the context of the post to which it responded. Here it really makes no sense. JMO. :)

[CptColumbo]

As has been shown there are penalties for fraudulent registering and voting, so there appears to be measures to prevent them from happening that don't deny others the opportunity to vote. If there was a case of a fraudulent vote being cast that was registered through ACORN I might rethink my stand.

IIRC in the 2004 election Minnesota had only two cases of voter fraud that were unrelated to ACORN, both were people who had recently moved to a new district and voted in their old and new districts.

[Bikewer]

Sorry to jump in late on this, but there have been a couple of NPR shows/segments on this.

According to these reports, much of the problem involves the fact that individuals were paid to obtain registrations, and so the motivation to "pad" one's numbers is fairly high.
Evidently, as the post above indicated, there is almost no incidence of any actual vote fraud as a result of these spurious registrations.

[gtc]

According to these reports, much of the problem involves the fact that individuals were paid to obtain registrations, and so the motivation to "pad" one's numbers is fairly high.

I would have thought someone would have considered that this would have been a possibility and then weighed the damage this could do against the benefits of signing more (legitimate) voters.

[gdnp]

I'm sure that they did. They probably figured that one person registered 7 times does no damage, but one person not registered does.

The problem here is the canvassers. The people out on the street have no way of knowing if someone is registered or not: there is no database they can check. They may have been registered in the past but then have been stripped from the rolls during a document check that found a typo.

Compound this with the difficulty in monitoring canvassers. These are not highly paid positions. I had a roommate after college who worked briefly as a canvasser for MassPIRG. He was fired for poor productivity.

How do you measure the productivity of a canvasser? By the number of voters that they sign up. Even if you pay them per hour and do not pay them per voter, illegal in at least some states, there is still the bias to believe that those who return with lots of signatures on their sheets have been working hard and those that come back with few have not.

I'd solve this by instituting a national ID card, issued at birth. Everyone is automatically registered to vote as soon as they turn 18. Each time you move you send in a change of address and your voting privileges are transferred.

This would have the added advantage of making it easier to take away people's guns and round up undesirables who disagree with my political philosophy. I can't understand why it has not been instituted already.

[Dr Adequate]

According to what I read, they were paid wages, not on a per voter basis. However, they had daily minimum targets if they wanted to keep their jobs, hence the temptation to pad their lists.

Sorry, no reference, this is just from memory.

[Herzblut]

I'd solve this by instituting a national ID card, issued at birth. Everyone is automatically registered to vote as soon as they turn 18. Each time you move you send in a change of address and your voting privileges are transferred.

I'd rather have a functioning civil registry and compulsory civil registration, imposed by law. I find it weird that there is no such thing in the US.

[gtc]

In Australia the parties just hand out post cards which we fill in and post back to the Electoral Commission (I don't think they require a stamp). They are also regularly handed out by schools and Universities. The Australian system seems to be much less open to false registrations.