How did things get this bad?

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I’m not sure if this is appropriate for the religion and philosophy forum. So if it doesn’t I apologize in advance.

Now, I won’t bother any of you by getting into the specifics of the ranting and raving, all from family members staying in MY home, I listened to last night. But I think I’ll simply deliver a few of the more important details of the utter insanity I listened to last night.

-- Barack Obama is the anti-Christ/a Muslim/a Muslim terrorist/a racist/going to kill us all/only cares about you if you have nine babies and is going to make us all bankrupt and give our money to people with nine babies (no joke).
-- My 16 year old cousin thinks it’s a good idea to crucify Obama, Biden, Michelle Obama, and myself and my father for daring to vote for Barack Obama.
-- The $700 billion bail-out is a liberal conspiracy led by Barack Obama. Seeing as how he is the anti-Christ, he needs control of the banks first so he can take control of the entire world.
-- His middle-name is Hussein, proving he’s a terrorist.
-- My two very young sisters (11 and 8) have been convinced by members of my family that if Barack Obama is elected president they are going to die.
-- Barack Obama is a typical “n*****”
-- The Democrats, and the Democrats alone, are responsible for the economic crisis in a ploy to get Obama elected president.
-- Abortions are sacrifices to Obama (no joke).
-- Barack Obama is black and therefore unqualified to hold any political office.
-- Barack Obama being the anti-Christ is biblical, but don’t ask for the specific scripture it just is.

Now, I’ve known most of my family drank the kool-aid of the very far right a very long time ago. And as most of you may have guessed I’m most angry with my cousin who stated, in all seriousness, that he would like to have me and my father crucified for voting for Obama. I was also deeply angered when my uncle, who has physically assaulted my when I was still a minor, threatened me with violence when I disagreed with him. And of course, I’m also very upset that they have my two very young sisters whipped up into a state of total panic. Especially since they’re all in a state of grieving now having come to the conclusion that McCain will lose the election and thus essentially telling my two sisters they WILL die. It was just after my uncle threatened me that I threatened to call the police if they didn’t leave my house. As they left I also informed most of them that they are no longer welcome in my home.

I’m telling you all this because I want to ask a question and I think it’s necessary to highlight just how much this has affected me. I believe this election has gotten drastically out of hand and in the next few weeks I fear it’s only going to get worse. I especially fear the frenzy some of the people who are as bad as certain members of family may be whipped into assuming Obama will win the presidency.

How exactly did things get this bad? Now I’m very young, 20, so I have no idea if things have always been this bad. Why is it that certain people are incapable of having a civil discussion about politics and the presidential campaign? I don’t expect to change any minds either, the people I’m talking about have huge emotional investment in the election and in the case of my two young sisters who, assuming Obama wins this election, will spend the next 4-8 years fearing that their president intends to cause them physical harm. I hate to say it but my sisters have been indoctrinated rather well, and nothing will convince them otherwise; especially since it’s our mother telling them these things.

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.

[Scazon]

It was very uncivil of them to call Obama a typical "nitwit". But it all reminds me of my Uncle Joe and his family back in the 60s, when I had a major bustup with them at a family party over Enoch Powell's view of "coloured" immigrants to Britain. It was one of the first times I understood that Christians didn't take their own teachings on charity very seriously, and in the longer term he did me a favour by opening my eyes to the possibility that the Church didn't always mean what it says. The old sod's dead now, so it will have been a shock to him when he got sent to hell for racism :) And the cousin went to South Africa, enjoyed the life of Larry under apartheid, and bailed out in panic at liberation. He sold up cheap and came home poor and unemployed in the middle of a recession. See the workings of God's justice!

Forget DNA as a definer of "family", it's friends that you choose that you build your life around. If you're stuck in some out-of-the-way town where everyone is related, bale out as soon as you can.

[fagin]

Racism?

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Racism?

Lots of that yes, but also the ever-present tingle of religious bigotry brought on from the possibility that he may be Muslim.

[fagin]

Reminds me of a line in a poem in my high school yearbook (just about the only thing I still remember)
'Blood may be thicker than water, but thank god I can choose my own friends'

[CurtC]

-- Barack Obama is a typical “n*****”

So which is it, he's your typical "nitwit," or he's the Anti-Christ? Those two seem to be opposing views.

I really don't know what to say - I have never run across any of the craziness like you're describing, so it's all alien to me. This election doesn't seem any more nasty or out of hand than any previous ones I recall (I don't have too much recollection of presidential elections before 1972, because in 1968 I was too young to pay attention to politics). Other than the pretty significant milestone of a person of mixed race (including African) being at the head of a major party ticket, this election seems pretty normal to me.

I'm sorry you're in this situation, but it does seem like it would be entertaining just to see how crazy their statements could get. You know - treat it as fun, goad them into saying the wildest things, maybe take notes of the good ones. But the bit about your sisters is more serious.

[Vic Vega]

Sounds like you need to find a new family...

[Henners]

Fox News?

[Ichneumonwasp]

Things have always been this bad, especially in the run-ups to elections. A favorite used to be to accuse your opponent of frequenting prostitutes and of having syphilis.

I can't recall the name of it, but there is a book that documents many previous elections (some presidential and some not) and the tricks used in them. One I recall included a candidate who successfully accused his opponent of being a "practicing homo sapiens" to the disgust of the crowd.

This type of acrimony goes all the way back to the fights between the Federalists and Democratic Republicans. The Federalists even used the sedition act to convict some of the Democratic Rebublicans -- one was even sentenced to death by hanging for treason (but Adams was losing to Jefferson so he commuted the sentence, so as not to look bad as the election approached).

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

So which is it, he's your typical "nitwit," or he's the Anti-Christ? Those two seem to be opposing views.

My mother is under the impression that each new Democratic nominee for the presidency is the anti-Christ. Gore and Kerry certainly were in her opinion.

I'm sorry you're in this situation, but it does seem like it would be entertaining just to see how crazy their statements could get.

Their statements can get down-right insane. The other day I decided I had enough of the anti-Christ comments and asserted that John McCain was, in fact, the anti-Christ. Now obviously I don't believe that; I "came out of the science lab" years back. But their reaction was priceless to say the least. My mom responded as expected and simply got angry and attempted to shout me down. Everyone else appeared dumbstruck, they looked at each other in awe for a few moments before one of them actually spoke...and what he said I am not kidding you is an exact quote; "but he's a war hero". That takes the cake. Well, nearly. My dad still believes Obama could be the anti-Christ, just that he'll vote for him becuase he can't prove it. He's told me that if Obama is the anti-Christ he, and I'm not kidding, believes Oprah is the false prophet. I laughed but he actually attempted to reason with me by pointing to "signs", which included things like her influence and her little course on spirituality that he believes is a ploy to lead people to hell. He also buys into the micro-chip thing (name is on the tip of my tongue) as being the sign of beast, bankers are trying to take control of the world but don't realize they're doing it for the anti-Christ, and the Knights Templar could run the world already. So needless to say when my dad says something CTish I tend to flip off the switch to my ears.

But the bit about your sisters is more serious.

I'm deeply concerned with how they're being raised. I'm also worried about my younger sister who is alot like me in so many ways. It leads me to believe she's going to question her faith and face years of guilt and fear while she hammers out the details just like I did. My mother's constant certainty that the end is nigh and we need repent never helped, well constantly telling me that I'm going to hell when I die before she knew I was an atheist never helped either. She was never so forward, she'd simply say "I don't know your heart" which if you've ever lived with fundies is code for "I don't believe you're Christian". She would also say that she needed to leave information on her bank account where me and my brother could get when the rapture did happen and left us behind. If you knew her like I did that statement would appear much more condescending than I can make it here. But like I said, the older one is a lot like my brother which means she’ll never think about anything critically. But the younger one is more like me, so I fear she’s going to go through hell in that house coming to terms with her faith or lack-thereof. The whole thing really worries me sometimes.

[I Ratant]

Most of my retired compatriots could really go off on a rag on Obama.. and I get daily e-mails from them that do.
But not as extreme as the OP.
I think a McCain-Biden ticket would be OK.. tossing out the two losers cluttering up the landscape.

[Darth Rotor]

How did things get this bad?
Entropy.

[CurtC]

She would also say that she needed to leave information on her bank account where me and my brother could get when the rapture did happen and left us behind.

My favorite bumper sticker:


IN CASE OF RAPTURE
Can I have your car?

I think it would be a good idea to stay in contact with your family, for your sisters' benefit. Plus, you could regale us with the stories!

[Autolite]

Sounds like a nasty situation. I can relate to it as I myself had to alienate my entire family many years ago. It was a hard decision but they were becoming a destructive force in my life and cutting them all loose was just a survival measure. We tend to be more tolerant of family just because they are family. It's just human nature. The bottom line is that we can choose our friends but we can't choose our family. If "divorcing" your family is what you need to do then you shouldn't feel ashamed...

[Mister Agenda]

My dad told my sister and her husband they could have his furniture when the rapture comes. They're Presbyterian, you see.

[uruk]

How did things get this bad? Easy. Two parts ignorance mixed with one part religeous fanaticisim.

Nobody wants to think. Thinking is too "hard" and the truth is often "depressing".
It's better to let someone do the thinking for you from the pulpit and fill your head with a soothing fantasy and manufactured boogymen to keep you in line.

This goes on all over the world. The U.S. is not immune.

[SusanB-M1]

OP - A worrying, very wearing situation which could really get you down, but I'd go with autolite's views in #14.

[fuelair]

I’m not sure if this is appropriate for the religion and philosophy forum. So if it doesn’t I apologize in advance.

Now, I won’t bother any of you by getting into the specifics of the ranting and raving, all from family members staying in MY home, I listened to last night. But I think I’ll simply deliver a few of the more important details of the utter insanity I listened to last night.

-- Barack Obama is the anti-Christ/a Muslim/a Muslim terrorist/a racist/going to kill us all/only cares about you if you have nine babies and is going to make us all bankrupt and give our money to people with nine babies (no joke).
-- My 16 year old cousin thinks it’s a good idea to crucify Obama, Biden, Michelle Obama, and myself and my father for daring to vote for Barack Obama.
-- The $700 billion bail-out is a liberal conspiracy led by Barack Obama. Seeing as how he is the anti-Christ, he needs control of the banks first so he can take control of the entire world.
-- His middle-name is Hussein, proving he’s a terrorist.
-- My two very young sisters (11 and 8) have been convinced by members of my family that if Barack Obama is elected president they are going to die.
-- Barack Obama is a typical “n*****”
-- The Democrats, and the Democrats alone, are responsible for the economic crisis in a ploy to get Obama elected president.
-- Abortions are sacrifices to Obama (no joke).
-- Barack Obama is black and therefore unqualified to hold any political office.
-- Barack Obama being the anti-Christ is biblical, but don’t ask for the specific scripture it just is.

Now, I’ve known most of my family drank the kool-aid of the very far right a very long time ago. And as most of you may have guessed I’m most angry with my cousin who stated, in all seriousness, that he would like to have me and my father crucified for voting for Obama. I was also deeply angered when my uncle, who has physically assaulted my when I was still a minor, threatened me with violence when I disagreed with him. And of course, I’m also very upset that they have my two very young sisters whipped up into a state of total panic. Especially since they’re all in a state of grieving now having come to the conclusion that McCain will lose the election and thus essentially telling my two sisters they WILL die. It was just after my uncle threatened me that I threatened to call the police if they didn’t leave my house. As they left I also informed most of them that they are no longer welcome in my home.

I’m telling you all this because I want to ask a question and I think it’s necessary to highlight just how much this has affected me. I believe this election has gotten drastically out of hand and in the next few weeks I fear it’s only going to get worse. I especially fear the frenzy some of the people who are as bad as certain members of family may be whipped into assuming Obama will win the presidency.

How exactly did things get this bad? Now I’m very young, 20, so I have no idea if things have always been this bad. Why is it that certain people are incapable of having a civil discussion about politics and the presidential campaign? I don’t expect to change any minds either, the people I’m talking about have huge emotional investment in the election and in the case of my two young sisters who, assuming Obama wins this election, will spend the next 4-8 years fearing that their president intends to cause them physical harm. I hate to say it but my sisters have been indoctrinated rather well, and nothing will convince them otherwise; especially since it’s our mother telling them these things.

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.
Two reasons : 1)eight years of Bush AND the republicker congress even before that (under Newt Gingrich) 2) the religious right operating with the republickers. They have tried to destroy the real culture of the US to return us to a time that never really exisited except in their minds - a time of two parent white families who went to church and had no problems except occasional illness, schools full of beaming happy well behaved white kids who loved to watch Code approved happy family films or listen to wholesome family entertainment on the radio all together. (More details available, but it's all as fake and unreal as the creature they worship and the characters they elect - or try too.).:)

[Safe-Keeper]

Why so many seem to hate Obama with a record passion... from my layman's point of view, I think it has to do with one part racism and one part 9/11. I suppose having an Arabic leader during our 'war on terror' with countries that happen to be Middle Eastern (the facts that Iraqis aren't Arabs and that Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 escapes the minds of most Christian nutters) is comparable in their eyes to having a German running for President in 1944 or a Russian in the Cold War. It's 'letting the fox inside the hen house' so so speak, essentially giving the nation to the enemy. Hence all the 'if he wins the election {horrific thing here} is going to happen' paranoia. That's my guess, at least.

Their double standards and ignorance is fairly stunning, though. Take the nutters who say he's a Muslim extremist and that he will legalize all abortion, disregarding that Islamic fundamentalists hate abortion with, if possible, an even greater passion than do Christian fundamentalists in the States. Or that he's a Muslim fundamentalist and thus worships Satan. I could go on and on.

Can't blame them for their paranoia, though. If I thought there was a Raptor was right around the corner, I'd be scared, too.

-- My two very young sisters (11 and 8) have been convinced by members of my family that if Barack Obama is elected president they are going to die.Disgusting. They'll hopefully come to their senses and become reasonable adults.

[wolfgirl]

First of all, I want to say congratulations to you for having emerged somehow from that family with your reason intact. That's a feat of which you should be immensely proud.

I saw a reporter on TV the other day who was saying that over the course of the past week or so, she's seen a dramatic change in the crowds at the McCain rallies. She said there are always a few crazy people at political rallies (I think she called them "wing-nuts"), but that it was disturbing to her that the recent rallies seem to be made up almost entirely of these types. Witness the shouts from the crowds that have been taped over the last several days at McCain or Palin speeches, shouts of "Terrorist," "Treason," "Traitor" and worse at the mere mention of Obama's name, and I think you can make an argument that things are taking a drastic turn for the worse. We all know someone who won't vote for Obama because his middle name is Hussein or because they "heard" he was a Muslim or whatever. Add in Palin's repeated attempts to tie him to "terrorists" and her being introduced for two different speeches by two different people who felt the need to use Obama's middle name in their opening statements, and I think we have the recipe for things to get really ugly really fast. I think it's even scaring McCain. Did you see the look on his face when someone shouted "Terrorist" at one of his talks? And now he's actually having to defend Obama to his own audiences (one woman insisted Obama was "an Arab").

In other words, your family is not alone in their insanity, but you just have to stay strong in the face of it.

[Safe-Keeper]

(one woman insisted Obama was "an Arab"). Indeed very confusing. If blacks are now Arabs, what are Arabs? Blacks? Something else? Or are blacks and Arabs now the same, but only if they're Muslims? In such a case, what about an Arab who's not a Muslim, is he black?

:headache:

[Blackadder]

kidnap your sisters, bomb your uncle and flee the country.

you can hide at my place. We have good education

[Tanstaafl]

I don't think it's always been this bad, but I think it has been before, probably many times. In '68 it was similar, people burning Nixon in effigy, others telling us to leave the country if we didn't support the war. I remember after the Kent State shootings, one of the parents of the dead was interviewed, and said that those kids deserved to die for being part of the anti-war rally. His own kid.

I think it was not nearly so bad for a while after that, but here we go again...

[Safe-Keeper]

kidnap your sistersThis idea has crossed my mind, too.

[Ladewig]

Tough call. There is nothing you can say to change his mind. On the other hand, you can show the weakness of his position by asking if he, like any God-fearing Christian, has donated all his money and all his time to McCain in an effort to prevent the anti-Christ from taking over America.

If I were in your position, the only other thing I would try is to let the sisters know that if they get into trouble and are afraid to ask their other relatives for help, they can turn to you.

I will agree that it seems worse now than in the past. Even though the past was pretty bad. E.g. people claiming that Kennedy (the first Catholic to run for president) would be a puppet of the Pope.

As for hoping that it gets better, remember that we are still within living memory of a time when washrooms, drinking fountains, and trains were racially segregated - so expecting pinheads to give up their racism here in the 21st century may be too much.

[Henners]

Can't blame them for their paranoia, though.

Why not? They are the citizens of a democracy. That makes them the people responsible - whether they are responsible people or not.

[kurious_kathy]

I’m not sure if this is appropriate for the religion and philosophy forum. So if it doesn’t I apologize in advance.

Now, I won’t bother any of you by getting into the specifics of the ranting and raving, all from family members staying in MY home, I listened to last night. But I think I’ll simply deliver a few of the more important details of the utter insanity I listened to last night.

-- Barack Obama is the anti-Christ/a Muslim/a Muslim terrorist/a racist/going to kill us all/only cares about you if you have nine babies and is going to make us all bankrupt and give our money to people with nine babies (no joke).
-- My 16 year old cousin thinks it’s a good idea to crucify Obama, Biden, Michelle Obama, and myself and my father for daring to vote for Barack Obama.
-- The $700 billion bail-out is a liberal conspiracy led by Barack Obama. Seeing as how he is the anti-Christ, he needs control of the banks first so he can take control of the entire world.
-- His middle-name is Hussein, proving he’s a terrorist.
-- My two very young sisters (11 and 8) have been convinced by members of my family that if Barack Obama is elected president they are going to die.
-- Barack Obama is a typical “n*****”
-- The Democrats, and the Democrats alone, are responsible for the economic crisis in a ploy to get Obama elected president.
-- Abortions are sacrifices to Obama (no joke).
-- Barack Obama is black and therefore unqualified to hold any political office.
-- Barack Obama being the anti-Christ is biblical, but don’t ask for the specific scripture it just is.

Now, I’ve known most of my family drank the kool-aid of the very far right a very long time ago. And as most of you may have guessed I’m most angry with my cousin who stated, in all seriousness, that he would like to have me and my father crucified for voting for Obama. I was also deeply angered when my uncle, who has physically assaulted my when I was still a minor, threatened me with violence when I disagreed with him. And of course, I’m also very upset that they have my two very young sisters whipped up into a state of total panic. Especially since they’re all in a state of grieving now having come to the conclusion that McCain will lose the election and thus essentially telling my two sisters they WILL die. It was just after my uncle threatened me that I threatened to call the police if they didn’t leave my house. As they left I also informed most of them that they are no longer welcome in my home.

I’m telling you all this because I want to ask a question and I think it’s necessary to highlight just how much this has affected me. I believe this election has gotten drastically out of hand and in the next few weeks I fear it’s only going to get worse. I especially fear the frenzy some of the people who are as bad as certain members of family may be whipped into assuming Obama will win the presidency.

How exactly did things get this bad? Now I’m very young, 20, so I have no idea if things have always been this bad. Why is it that certain people are incapable of having a civil discussion about politics and the presidential campaign? I don’t expect to change any minds either, the people I’m talking about have huge emotional investment in the election and in the case of my two young sisters who, assuming Obama wins this election, will spend the next 4-8 years fearing that their president intends to cause them physical harm. I hate to say it but my sisters have been indoctrinated rather well, and nothing will convince them otherwise; especially since it’s our mother telling them these things.

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.

I have said some of the same things about Obama so I'll apologize if I offend you in these beliefs. The fact is you need to realize people are like the company they keep and Obama's track record is HORRIBLE! I'm sorry but I do believe his cousin in Kenya and he are plotting something more than we could even conteplaint.

The problem is clearly EVIL! Men are evil full of sin because we are born with a fallen nature.The thing I have a hard time with is why people are so blinded by their sin. We have all been born into a fallen world and unless we accept Christ there is no hope. I see Obama as a son of perdition because of his backround and his connections.

I would just suggest we all get on our knees with God to save us.The scriptures are clear that in the last days many mockers would come and evil would grow. Soon they will forbid people to get married and that's totally evil. God ordained marriage,one man, one woman. I say we keep it right with him.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.

There is plenty of proof that God is and He does act against evil. He will have his time in everyones life dealing with sin. If he hasn't convicted each one of us of our sins then we have an even bigger problem because he has just left us. I know first hand about being chastised and I know it's because my Heavenly Father loves me. We either accept Jesus's authority or we rebel and deny the one truth that sets us sinners free.

As for Obama, he is a sinner like everyone else and as far as I can see he still needs a Savior, then I might trust him because he would be a spirit filled leader. As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?

God help us all see the truth that we have sinned against a Holy God and his Son is real and can set us sinners free. I myself like the reassurance of knowing when I meet my maker when he asks me why I think I deserve to enter heaven?, all that will stand is the true test ...I accepted your son and I know Jesus died to redeem me from my sins. Now that's the good news!!

This world is nearing it's end my friend and all evil unrepented sinners without Christ will be condemnded, I suggest you don't let that happen to you! Blessings.... Kathy

[firestorm]

Actually, I think things are getting better. We just like to think they're getting worse so we feel slightly superior to those around us, as if we ourselves would feel more at home with smarter people. Not dissing anyone because I do it too, always telling younger people how we were so much better in the 60's and 70's.

[arthwollipot]

This goes on all over the world. The U.S. is not immune.While I'm not trying to deny that this goes on all over the world, it seems to me that it is more... virulent in the US. Maybe it's just reported more from the US. I dunno.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law.California is burning because gays are people too? This is a new low for you, Kathy. :bwall

[Olowkow]

This world is nearing it's end my friend and all evil unrepented sinners without Christ will be condemnded, I suggest you don't let that happen to you! Blessings.... Kathy

I'm curious how you know this, who told you? What evidence do you have? Can't you just let your world end around you, and leave me and my world alone? I happen to be pretty happy and I have no need to even invoke the notion of "sin". You have bought into a world of sadness and delusion, and some of us just don't want any part of that lie.

Have a nice day.:)

[Safe-Keeper]

Can't blame them for their paranoia, though. Why not? They are the citizens of a democracy. That makes them the people responsible - whether they are responsible people or not.Oh, I blame them for their belief in the Rapture, all right. I meant my post as a joke (a play of words, using 'raptor' instead of 'rapture'), saying that if I ended up (irrationally) believing in the Rapture, I'd be scared too.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.Pardon the OT Godwin, but why is it that when Hitler massacred gays, it meant hitler was bad, but when God terrorizes gays, it means 'he's acting against evil' and gays are bad:confused:? Why is it that so many Christians have this battered spouse syndrome when it comes to their deity?

Is God wrong or was Hitler right? You can't have it both ways.

The scriptures are clear that in the last days many mockers would comeOnly in the last days? That's like me announcing that in the last days, politicians will lie and water will be wet. People have always scoffed at Christianity, Kathy. What you see today in the US is nothing new, nor particularly severe compared to earlier events. Oh, and Jesus was pretty clear that He would return and bring about the 'Rapture' before the people who lived at the time would die. 2000 years overdue, He is - so much for honesty.

and evil would grow.Again, the US isn't exactly a hellhole of evil and horror compared to many other places in many other times.

[ServiceSoon]

How did things get this bad?
This behavior was taught to them by anything they interacted with, especially as children.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I have said some of the same things about Obama so I'll apologize if I offend you in these beliefs. The fact is you need to realize people are like the company they keep and Obama's track record is HORRIBLE! I'm sorry but I do believe his cousin in Kenya and he are plotting something more than we could even conteplaint.

The problem is clearly EVIL! Men are evil full of sin because we are born with a fallen nature.The thing I have a hard time with is why people are so blinded by their sin. We have all been born into a fallen world and unless we accept Christ there is no hope. I see Obama as a son of perdition because of his backround and his connections.

I would just suggest we all get on our knees with God to save us.The scriptures are clear that in the last days many mockers would come and evil would grow. Soon they will forbid people to get married and that's totally evil. God ordained marriage,one man, one woman. I say we keep it right with him.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.

There is plenty of proof that God is and He does act against evil. He will have his time in everyones life dealing with sin. If he hasn't convicted each one of us of our sins then we have an even bigger problem because he has just left us. I know first hand about being chastised and I know it's because my Heavenly Father loves me. We either accept Jesus's authority or we rebel and deny the one truth that sets us sinners free.

As for Obama, he is a sinner like everyone else and as far as I can see he still needs a Savior, then I might trust him because he would be a spirit filled leader. As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?

God help us all see the truth that we have sinned against a Holy God and his Son is real and can set us sinners free. I myself like the reassurance of knowing when I meet my maker when he asks me why I think I deserve to enter heaven?, all that will stand is the true test ...I accepted your son and I know Jesus died to redeem me from my sins. Now that's the good news!!

This world is nearing it's end my friend and all evil unrepented sinners without Christ will be condemnded, I suggest you don't let that happen to you! Blessings.... Kathy

I understand that the other presidential candidate spent at lot of time (years even) with a bunch of Communists? Is this true?

Can you say "Manchurian Candidate"?

It saddens me considerably that there are people on this planet who provide any credence to such idiocy.

May the IPU (bless Her Name) pee on you too.

[TinfoilCat]

I have said some of the same things about Obama so I'll apologize if I offend you in these beliefs. The fact is you need to realize people are like the company they keep and Obama's track record is HORRIBLE! I'm sorry but I do believe his cousin in Kenya and he are plotting something more than we could even conteplaint.

The problem is clearly EVIL! Men are evil full of sin because we are born with a fallen nature.The thing I have a hard time with is why people are so blinded by their sin. We have all been born into a fallen world and unless we accept Christ there is no hope. I see Obama as a son of perdition because of his backround and his connections.

I would just suggest we all get on our knees with God to save us.The scriptures are clear that in the last days many mockers would come and evil would grow. Soon they will forbid people to get married and that's totally evil. God ordained marriage,one man, one woman. I say we keep it right with him.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.

There is plenty of proof that God is and He does act against evil. He will have his time in everyones life dealing with sin. If he hasn't convicted each one of us of our sins then we have an even bigger problem because he has just left us. I know first hand about being chastised and I know it's because my Heavenly Father loves me. We either accept Jesus's authority or we rebel and deny the one truth that sets us sinners free.

As for Obama, he is a sinner like everyone else and as far as I can see he still needs a Savior, then I might trust him because he would be a spirit filled leader. As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?

God help us all see the truth that we have sinned against a Holy God and his Son is real and can set us sinners free. I myself like the reassurance of knowing when I meet my maker when he asks me why I think I deserve to enter heaven?, all that will stand is the true test ...I accepted your son and I know Jesus died to redeem me from my sins. Now that's the good news!!

This world is nearing it's end my friend and all evil unrepented sinners without Christ will be condemnded, I suggest you don't let that happen to you! Blessings.... Kathy

Wait.

Last time I checked, Obama is a Christian, and there is no evidence that implies that he is NOT a Christian. If he is a Christian, who accepts Jesus as his savior, why would he need another savior?

The issue of homosexuality:

Their are "Good" Christians who believe homosexuality is not forbidden or at least not the "ultimate" sin. Both sides of Christianity have their own Biblical "evidence" or "proof" that the opposing side is wrong. The issue of homosexuality shows a great hypocrisy from both sides by the name calling and the various other methods of defaming each other, all in the name of God.

Also, provide the proof that the world is nearing its end, from the Bible or from anything else.

On the issue of your family believing that end is near or that Obama is the anti-christ...

A Christian perspective:

Tell them to actually READ the Bible thoroughly, instead of listening to what apocalyptic preachers tell them whats in the Bible. 90 percent of the time, apocalyptic preachers who deal with the rapture, anti-christ, and so on, do not do extensive research on the topic. Christian eschatology is the essence of complexity and majority of the futurist teachings are un-biblical in the first place.

Where in the Bible does it say "Obama shall be the anti-christ".

The whole futurist apocalypse thing is beginning to bug me. They spew claims which have no true biblical back up and claim that we shall all raptured into Heaven while un-believers suffer in Hell. Why would any follower of Christ, who must love and not judge, literally WANT people to burn in "Hell".

[Safe-Keeper]

Why would any follower of Christ, who must love and not judge, literally WANT people to burn in "Hell".For the same reason there were citizens of East Germany who wanted people to 'disappear' and be sent to work camps, I suppose.

[TinfoilCat]

For the same reason there were citizens of East Germany who wanted people to 'disappear' and be sent to work camps, I suppose.

Hiding behind religion to express their unrighteous bigotry and rage?

I'm guessing this is why atheists and other non-Christians think were all irrational, hypocritical, nincompoops. (Were not ALL like this... well maybe some of us...)

[Ladewig]

Wait.

Last time I checked, Obama is a Christian, and there is no evidence that implies that he is NOT a Christian. If he is a Christian, who accepts Jesus as his savior, why would he need another savior?

Quoted for relevance.

Of course when KK says "I have said some of the same things about Obama," I suppose it is possible that she is referring to assertion that Obama is a secret Muslim. KK, please tell us that you are not so out of touch with reality to believe that Obama is either the anti-Christ or a Muslim.

Soon they will forbid people to get married and that's totally evil.

They will forbid marriage?! WTF are you talking about?


I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.

Have you ever read the Bible KK? Scriptures clearly and unambiguously state that idolatry and blasphemy are by far the most serious sins. They go well beyond any admonition to eschew gay sex. Why don't you California Christians try to outlaw idolatry with the same fervor that you try to outlaw homosexuality? The number of idolaters in California must be several times the number of homosexuals. Or better yet, why don't you Christians mind your own business and stop trying to legislate Christianity. We are not a Christian nation nor should we try to be.

[godless dave]

Don't feed the Kurious Troll.

Regarding the OP, I think there have always been people like your family around, but we are at one of those periods in American history where some politicians are courting them more than usual, and as a result they are more visible than usual.

[wolfgirl]

As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?Nobody's been suppressing it. Everyone knows where McCain stands on abortion; it's just that most Americans are pro-choice, like Obama.

[wolfgirl]

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.So your wonderful, kind, gentle, loving god is punishing everyone in the state for the decision of a few? Wow, what a guy! After all, no kind and loving god would want all of his children to be treated equally, would he?

It must be weird to live in a world where you see everything as some sort of reaction or response by an invisible man in the sky. When there are floods or hurricanes or earthquakes in places without gay marriage, how do you explain them? Or how do you explain when entire countries, like Canada, allow gay marriage, and they haven't been destroyed by avalanches or something?

[Hokulele]

If he hasn't convicted each one of us of our sins then we have an even bigger problem because he has just left us.


Or never existed in the first place.

[kurious_kathy]

While I'm not trying to deny that this goes on all over the world, it seems to me that it is more... virulent in the US. Maybe it's just reported more from the US. I dunno.

California is burning because gays are people too? This is a new low for you, Kathy. :bwall Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling.

And I don't hate gays, I hate their sin. They need to acknowledge it's sin and then God will heal them. Nobody is born gay, that's just an excuse. God will judge people for their sin so I am obligated to share that knowledge with others. Jesus died for all the sins of this world, but once he comes inside us with his Holy Spirit we can't enjoy sinning anymore, the Holy Spirit convicts us of it. Do you get that? God is Holy and His laws are just. Just look at the warnings in scripture about who won't enter Heaven sometime. Do you even know where those are?

I had to go through this confrontation with the Lord about my own sin 4 years ago. I am his child now and he wouldn't allow me to continue on that dark path which does destroy our lives. I started reading scripture and confessing my sins, and he forgave me. Now I walk in the light but it wasn't this way that long ago. I broke every singel one of those Ten Commandments and and ashamed of it. I just wish I had truly come to know the Lord a long time ago so more of my life could have been useful to him. Now I have a powerful testimony of what Jesus can do and I will continue to share that in hopes He can use it to reach others.

P.S. It's not okay that they are trying to enforce laws to quiet the teaching of God's word either. He addresses homosexuality as a sin in scripture and people threaten us for making that known? That's wrong and unfortunately we are probably going to see more pastors in jail because of this. I am upset about that. It's a violation of our constitution and the freedom of speech.

[Kopji]

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.

There is a lot you could do short of completely severing relationships, but taking a break from them for a while doesn't sound like it could hurt. It sounds like that in a real sense - they are ill. When people are sick it is sometimes a good thing to give them space to get well. Act with compassion and work with them slowly.

Not to sound harsh, but belief that is expressed in a way that issues threats of insane violence is almost certainly a medical problem because it can destroy lives. Discussing religion and politics is probably going to be unproductive: they are ill.

[kurious_kathy]

Or never existed in the first place.He has always been our creator God, please don't let others deceive you. He loves us so much he gave his son to die for our sins. Jesus took our place so we could be reconciled to our Heavenly Father and have a relationship with him. And to me when it all comes down because of Jesus I have everything. Nothing this world puts me through can take me out of his hands. Don't you want that peace in your life? You can know this truth too, just seek God with all your heart. He is the one who rewards us when we do. Once Jesus revealded himself to me it took away every doubt I ever had. I'll hope and pray that for you too.

[Kopji]

Here is a short list of the history of California fires. The fires always come this time of year and are statistically unrelated to political votes about legal definitions of marriage.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/10/22/state/n181734D34.DTL&feed=rss.news

Additionally, to accept that God causes fires in Southern California killing innocent people and burning their houses as a kind of chastisement for what people in Northern California did - is simply evidence that if God exists he is a bad aim.

(Poe's Law on Kathy).

[Kopji]

Or God is evil?

_ November 1966: Loop Fire, near Angeles National Forest in Los Angeles County. 2,028 acres, 12 firefighters killed. Power line.

Maybe that fire in 1966 was due to God's revulsion against the civil rights movement.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling.

You act like these are the first fires California has ever had. Hey, and Hurricane Katrina was because New Orleans is a land of sin. As we all know a hurricane has never occured near a freaking coastal city.

And I don't hate gays, I hate their sin.

I've lived with fundamentalists and homophobes for my entire life, this is code for "I hate gays". It's logically meaningless to claim that you hate a person for who they are and not the person themselves since the two are inseparable.

They need to acknowledge it's sin and then God will heal them.

What are the success rates of religion run homosexual retraining camps?

Nobody is born gay, that's just an excuse.

I had a discussion with this with another poster awhile back who conceded that a person can, indeed, be born gay. However he refused to concede that homosexuality was not a sin. I assume I'm going to have to go through this all with you again. But please, show me one peer-reviewed paper from the "homosexuality is a choice" crowd and I may start to give that statement consideration.

God will judge people for their sin so I am obligated to share that knowledge with others.

I'm curious what the punishment God has lined up with his followers who judge others in his stead?

Jesus died for all the sins of this world, but once he comes inside us with his Holy Spirit we can't enjoy sinning anymore, the Holy Spirit convicts us of it.

Emphasis mine. Where does the bible say that if a man accepts the Holy Spirit sinning is no longer a temptation nor even enjoyable?

Do you get that? God is Holy and His laws are just.

They very well may be just but your interpretations of them are not.

Just look at the warnings in scripture about who won't enter Heaven sometime. Do you even know where those are?

I know them fully and 100%. The debate is on their meaning, none of the scripture was ever originally meant to be taken literally. And if something in scripture is shown to be logically invalid than by all reason you must either reinterpret the scripture or throw it out. For instance, the idea of an eternal sentence of punishment is logically consistent with the concept of a god who does not enjoy tormenting us.

P.S. It's not okay that they are trying to enforce laws to quiet the teaching of God's word either. He addresses homosexuality as a sin in scripture and people threaten us for making that known? That's wrong and unfortunately we are probably going to see more pastors in jail because of this. I am upset about that. It's a violation of our constitution and the freedom of speech.

No one is telling you that you cannot believe what you want. I simply want you to keep it in your home and out of my face. And if you choose to ignore that then you can expect only a harsh rebuke from me, I don't care special pleading you can throw out in defense the bottom-line is that your message of God's intolerance is unappealing and offensive to mine and many other's ears. Please show me a single pastor who has been jailed for simply speaking his mind and in which his words cannot be interpreted as fighting words...fighting words are not covered in free speech.

[Henners]

He has always been our creator God, please don't let others deceive you. He loves us so much he gave his son to die for our sins.

According to the book I read, he was lent for a weekend and then went back home.

[arthwollipot]

Oh my. I'm going to have to get back to this, but right now I have to go.

[Mashuna]

I broke every singel one of those Ten Commandments and and ashamed of it.

I'd be more than ashamed if I'd murdered someone. Do the police know about this, Kathy?

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I know them fully and 100%. The debate is on their meaning, none of the scripture was ever originally meant to be taken literally. And if something in scripture is shown to be logically invalid than by all reason you must either reinterpret the scripture or throw it out. For instance, the idea of an eternal sentence of punishment is logically consistent with the concept of a god who does not enjoy tormenting us.

Excuse me, I meant to say a "logically inconsistent with the concept of a god who does not enjoy tormenting us." For some reason I can't edit that post.

[maxfrost]

I will agree that it seems worse now than in the past. Even though the past was pretty bad. E.g. people claiming that Kennedy (the first Catholic to run for president) would be a puppet of the Pope.

Al Smith was the first Catholic to be nominated for President by a major political party. Kennedy was the first Catholic to be elected President.

[westprog]

OP - A worrying, very wearing situation which could really get you down, but I'd go with autolite's views in #14.


I emphatically would not. Breaking away from your family is something to be done as a last resort when the situation is highly destructive. It really should be a matter of absolute survival only. These are the people you'll turn to if you need a kidney. So they have insane/bigoted/irrational views - so what?

Friends you tend to pick because you have things in common. Family you stick to in spite of having nothing in common.

N.b. I'm not commenting in any way on Autolite's situation. I'm just referring to the OP, and whether the barking mad views described therein are justification for abandoning the entire family altogether.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Remember, the uncle was physically threatening.

My parents probably feel the same, and my sister's into the Secret (or was last I heard, I don't bring it up), so I tend to keep to the family I've made for myself rather than going with the one I had. There's precedent--I grew up with just the six of us despite having lots of relatives in the same city, they didn't think my father was legitimate.

[TMiguel]

OMG, Mental Hospital for all of them, seriously, they will hurt some one.

[slingblade]

Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling.

No, it's not a coinsidance. But it is a coincidence.

Though California wildfires make worldwide news as the latest natural disaster to befall the state, experts say they have been occurring regularly since before the region was settled by Europeans.

"It's a natural phenomenon, just part of Mother Nature's way of cleaning out the forest," California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection spokesman Daniel Berlant said. "Sometimes we hear, 'This is the worst fire season ever.' But its really an ongoing thing."

...that was written in 2007. (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1531024320070516)


And I don't hate gays, I hate their sin.

I don't hate KK. I just hate everything about her.


They need to acknowledge it's sin and then God will heal them. Nobody is born gay, that's just an excuse.

Because if you found out people can be born gay, you'd have to admit that God must have made them that way, and it would all fall apart on you.

SCARY!


God will judge people for their sin so I am obligated to share that knowledge with others. Jesus died for all the sins of this world, but once he comes inside us with his Holy Spirit we can't enjoy sinning anymore, the Holy Spirit convicts us of it. Do you get that?

No, actually, and it's one of the greater lies that caused me to renounce religion. So you can leave here content in the knowledge that what you've just said WILL drive someone away from Christianity. Thanks! I'm grateful to you for that.


God is Holy and His laws are just. Just look at the warnings in scripture about who won't enter Heaven sometime. Do you even know where those are?

Printed on the cups at Chick-Fil-A.


I broke every singel one of those Ten Commandments and and ashamed of it.

I agree with Mashuna. Who did you kill, Kathy, and did you ever do any time for it?

P.S. It's not okay that they are trying to enforce laws to quiet the teaching of God's word either.

It's not okay to lie, either, but you do it anyway. Feel any shame over that? I didn't think so.

He addresses homosexuality as a sin in scripture and people threaten us for making that known?

I bet you can't wait until you get your first threat! What an exciting day that will be for you!

That's wrong and unfortunately we are probably going to see more pastors in jail because of this.

When you see the first one, let us know. Until then, stop lying. It makes you look sinful, Kathy, just horribly sinful.

I am upset about that. It's a violation of our constitution and the freedom of speech.

Jesus was a pedophile. The apostles were his procurers. They brought him tasty children to sodomize on a daily basis. He even said, "suffer the little children to come unto me." What more proof do we need?


The preceeding was me engaging in free speech. Aren't you glad I have it, and aren't you just dying to protect my right to say such things?

[Foster Zygote]

I agree with Mashuna. Who did you kill, Kathy, and did you ever do any time for it?

Well, remember that Moses was angry and broke the first set of commandments. Then God sent him up for a replacement set that makes no mention of murder. So perhaps Kathy seared a kid in its mothers milk.

[godless dave]

I emphatically would not. Breaking away from your family is something to be done as a last resort when the situation is highly destructive. It really should be a matter of absolute survival only. These are the people you'll turn to if you need a kidney. So they have insane/bigoted/irrational views - so what?

Friends you tend to pick because you have things in common. Family you stick to in spite of having nothing in common.


Abusive parents everywhere approve this message.

[westprog]

Abusive parents everywhere approve this message.

I didn't see any example of parental abuse in the OP. There was a description of physical abuse from an uncle. I note that KF didn't break off relations with his uncle because of it.

KF will no doubt make his own judgement based on his own knowledge of the situation. If he decides that his family are worth sticking with, or not, then he'll probably be correct. If he decides to cut loose the occasional uncle who's out of control, then he's probably right as well.

However, bailing out of a family is like bailing out of an aircraft. It's a drastic step, and should only be taken when the alternative is to crash and burn. Finding a new family is not easy. Friends aren't family - even the closest friends. The reasons for abandoning a family entirely should be extremely substantial.

[godless dave]

However, bailing out of a family is like bailing out of an aircraft. It's a drastic step, and should only be taken when the alternative is to crash and burn. Finding a new family is not easy. Friends aren't family - even the closest friends. The reasons for abandoning a family entirely should be extremely substantial.

This is a sweeping generalization that applies to many people, maybe even the majority of people, but by no means to everyone. For many, abandoning a family is like crawling out of the burnt wreckage of an airplane that crashed long ago.

I'm lucky that most of my extended family are nice, but I need them in my life about as much as a fish needs a bicycle. They neither add to nor detract from it.

[Safe-Keeper]

I emphatically would not. Breaking away from your family is something to be done as a last resort when the situation is highly destructive. It really should be a matter of absolute survival only. These are the people you'll turn to if you need a kidney. So they have insane/bigoted/irrational views - so what?

Friends you tend to pick because you have things in common. Family you stick to in spite of having nothing in common.

There was a description of physical abuse from an uncle. I note that KF didn't break off relations with his uncle because of it.What about children and teens who are sexually abused, repeatedly, over a period of years by family members?

Is that OK, too, westprog?

The "(s)he didn't leave/offer resistance/scream, so it must be OK" bullocks belongs to a different age. Abuse is abuse.

[westprog]

This is a sweeping generalization that applies to many people, maybe even the majority of people, but by no means to everyone. For many, abandoning a family is like crawling out of the burnt wreckage of an airplane that crashed long ago.

I'm lucky that most of my extended family are nice, but I need them in my life about as much as a fish needs a bicycle. They neither add to nor detract from it.

Extended family is very different to family. Some people have aunts and uncles they've never even met. Some have aunts or uncles who are as close as their parents.

Advice about someone else's family is best not given on the basis of what's happened in one's own.

[I Ratant]

... So perhaps Kathy seared a kid in its mothers milk.
.
How can you even say that without weeping?
Imagine the stress on the mother goat!

[westprog]

What about children and teens who are sexually abused, repeatedly, over a period of years by family members?

Is that OK, too, westprog?


I'm afraid that I can't comment on this kind of reasoning.


The "(s)he didn't leave/offer resistance/scream, so it must be OK" bullocks belongs to a different age. Abuse is abuse.

I think the idea that repeated sexual attacks from an early age is the same thing as a single physical attack is clearly wrong. The two things have little in common apart from the name "abuse".

I'm not telling KF how he should deal with his family. If he thinks that there are sufficient reasons for him to break off the relationship with any or all of them, then he's more likely to be right about it than I am. It is, however, a huge step, and not to be undertaken lightly.

[Hokulele]

I'll hope and pray that for you too.


Meh, hope and pray for the success of my new business if you must do anything. Better yet, buy my software.

[gentlehorse]

He has always been our creator God, please don't let others deceive you. He loves us so much he gave his son to die for our sins. Jesus took our place so we could be reconciled to our Heavenly Father and have a relationship with him. And to me when it all comes down because of Jesus I have everything. Nothing this world puts me through can take me out of his hands. Don't you want that peace in your life? You can know this truth too, just seek God with all your heart. He is the one who rewards us when we do. Once Jesus revealded himself to me it took away every doubt I ever had. I'll hope and pray that for you too.

He killed his own son to protect his own creation from his own wrath. Think about that, Kathy.

[kurious_kathy]

Wait.

Last time I checked, Obama is a Christian, and there is no evidence that implies that he is NOT a Christian. If he is a Christian, who accepts Jesus as his savior, why would he need another savior?

The issue of homosexuality:

Their are "Good" Christians who believe homosexuality is not forbidden or at least not the "ultimate" sin. Both sides of Christianity have their own Biblical "evidence" or "proof" that the opposing side is wrong. The issue of homosexuality shows a great hypocrisy from both sides by the name calling and the various other methods of defaming each other, all in the name of God.

Also, provide the proof that the world is nearing its end, from the Bible or from anything else.

On the issue of your family believing that end is near or that Obama is the anti-christ...

A Christian perspective:

Tell them to actually READ the Bible thoroughly, instead of listening to what apocalyptic preachers tell them whats in the Bible. 90 percent of the time, apocalyptic preachers who deal with the rapture, anti-christ, and so on, do not do extensive research on the topic. Christian eschatology is the essence of complexity and majority of the futurist teachings are un-biblical in the first place.

Where in the Bible does it say "Obama shall be the anti-christ".

The whole futurist apocalypse thing is beginning to bug me. They spew claims which have no true biblical back up and claim that we shall all raptured into Heaven while un-believers suffer in Hell. Why would any follower of Christ, who must love and not judge, literally WANT people to burn in "Hell".
If you believe Obama's a Christian by going to church you are sadly mistaken. He looks like a wolf in sheeps clothing to me. Check out his spiritual leader Jermiah White sometime, talk about a racist. This guy is no man of God and people who fallow his teaching are very misled.

As for gays yes there are people in church struggeling with that sin but they are asking for help to get free from homosexuality if they are truly a spirit filled believer they cannot keep doing that, it is against scripture and God warns people to repent of this sin just as there are many other sins we are warned about to repent of. I have repented of a lot of sin from my past and sometimes this prodigal does get down about it. I just know the Lord as set me free from all that bondage that once kept him from being a part of my life. If we want God we must repent and then he is faithful to forgive our sins, but he never says it's okay to go back and keep doing it. Are we ever completely sin free as believers, no but we don't agree it's oaky to live a life of sin. And sexual sin is one of the worse as we are taught in scripture it is sinning against our own selves and has severe concequences. Why do you think there is so much aids now? That looks like God's judgement to me but I guess everyone has to decide themselves. What about all the other sexually transmitted diseases, do you think that's a coinsidence? I certainly don't.

[Henners]

As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?




I'd suggest that you get in there quick when McCain drops Palin. You seem to be perfectly qualified as a replacement.

[Toke]

I worry that economic trouble could make political and religius nuts more plentifull.
Desperation could make people turn to religion.

What are the success rates of religion run homosexual retraining camps?
How is that surpused to work???

[godless dave]

I'm not telling KF how he should deal with his family. If he thinks that there are sufficient reasons for him to break off the relationship with any or all of them, then he's more likely to be right about it than I am. It is, however, a huge step, and not to be undertaken lightly.

If you don't know him or his family, how do you have any way of knowing it's a huge step?

[kurious_kathy]

Meh, hope and pray for the success of my new business if you must do anything. Better yet, buy my software.What kind of software do you have? We just may have use for it. Do you have a website??

[uruk]

While I'm not trying to deny that this goes on all over the world, it seems to me that it is more... virulent in the US. Maybe it's just reported more from the US. I dunno.


The U.S. is just in the global eye more often. Yea you have alot of people around here who are ignorant and extremist in thier views, but it's mostly fear mongering and hardline radical politcal partisanship. I suspect you will find this type of ignorance and extremeism exists in all countries in larger quantities than you might suspect.

Everybody talks alot of smack but very rarely does someone take violent action in this country in comparison to other countries. And when it does happen, the hammer comes down pretty hard on the persons or groups.

We do not hold a candle to some other countries where there are honor killings and ethnic cleansings and violent suppression of protests and genocides.
Heck, you even have countries where the parliment members physicaly fight over simple issues.

The last time we had an all out war over political differences in our country was about 150 years ago.

[Marquis de Carabas]

California is burning because gays are people too?
Rubbing two sticks together is a leading cause of fire.

[kurious_kathy]

He killed his own son to protect his own creation from his own wrath. Think about that, Kathy.Jesus was the only one that could make a sacrifice that was pleasing to God for us. He never sinned that's why death could not keep him. The penalty of sin is death, but Jesus never sinned so he was resurrected. I know my redeemer lives, he has proven himself to me and millions of other believers.
I know it does take faith to receive this message, I just hope there are some here on JREF capable of having faith. What is a life without faith?To me that seems pretty empty and meaningless. So many try to say this life is all there is, but that is simply just not true. People are living souls that go on forever, either one place or the other. This would be a good time to take this warning about hell seriously as God is not mocked! And maybe for some I seem a bit overpowering, but I do have authority through Christ to speak truth into others lives!

[Nursefoxfire]

<snip>
And sexual sin is one of the worse as we are taught in scripture it is sinning against our own selves and has severe concequences.
<snip>


So you DON'T endorse John McCain, then? After all, he committed the "sexual sin" of adultery, and then put aside his first wife for the less broken model he's using now.

[kurious_kathy]

No, it's not a coinsidance. But it is a coincidence.



...that was written in 2007. (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1531024320070516)




I don't hate KK. I just hate everything about her.




Because if you found out people can be born gay, you'd have to admit that God must have made them that way, and it would all fall apart on you.

SCARY!




No, actually, and it's one of the greater lies that caused me to renounce religion. So you can leave here content in the knowledge that what you've just said WILL drive someone away from Christianity. Thanks! I'm grateful to you for that.




Printed on the cups at Chick-Fil-A.




I agree with Mashuna. Who did you kill, Kathy, and did you ever do any time for it?



It's not okay to lie, either, but you do it anyway. Feel any shame over that? I didn't think so.



I bet you can't wait until you get your first threat! What an exciting day that will be for you!



When you see the first one, let us know. Until then, stop lying. It makes you look sinful, Kathy, just horribly sinful.



Jesus was a pedophile. The apostles were his procurers. They brought him tasty children to sodomize on a daily basis. He even said, "suffer the little children to come unto me." What more proof do we need?


The preceeding was me engaging in free speech. Aren't you glad I have it, and aren't you just dying to protect my right to say such things?Hi Sling! I guess my faith is just a sore reminder of your past life. I just wish you had not gone apostate, I really do fear for your soul because I do not think there is any hope for an apostate? I could be wrong, but??

And as for who I killed? I am post abortive. I thought I got out of breaking the killing commandment until I had to deal with that lie I bought when I had my abortion. I was 16 and not ready to be a mom and I thought it was just a glob of tissue, now I see I was wrong. Now the Lord has forgiven me and healed me from that tragedy and I have hope of meeting my aborted baby in heaven. I believe now what the Bible teaches that life begins at conception, but then I was totally clueless. Anyways my abortion was one of the big things that caused me to be on anti depressants/ and liquor for years until God intervened and turned my ife around. It's been 4 years now without anti depressants or liquor and I am grateful for it. This was not by my own strength either, Jesus delivered me from a life of addiction. When I got on meth that last year it was way bad! Lot's of people still struggeling with that one. I was one God saved, it could very well have killed me like it has so many other people.

I guess we do have something my past is a sore reminder too! I never want to be lost to a life of sin again, NEVER!!

P.S. I know I am not a good speller or typist, sorry!!

[wolfgirl]

Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling.Okay, you're nuts.

What about all the fires that happened in California before the ruling? And what about the fires that happen in other states without gay marriage?

So far, two people have died in the fires. Your god killed two perfectly innocent people, neither of whom were probably gay or even cared about the gay marriage issue, to punish other people he thinks are sinning. Again I say, what a guy!

[Henners]

I take it you managed to hide your neighbour's ass in the garage, KK?

[kurious_kathy]

I'd suggest that you get in there quick when McCain drops Palin. You seem to be perfectly qualified as a replacement.
I know many do not like Palin but I do so I will take it as a compliment. And McCain is the better choice as a leader in my humble opinion, he's not just blowing smoke and tickeling ears to get a vote! I believe he will change things for the better in the USA. But Obama?? Well I just see he has no intention of following through with anything that will truly help the US, he will make us more vulnerable to the other world powers and then we will be imprisoned like the other nations, Do you want that? A socialist government will weaken the US not make her strong again. I'm sorry but I really think the US needs a wake up call Obama is not going to make a good leader for us and it would not surprise me if he truly is a undercover Muslim? Call me paranoid but his connections and friends are not good trustworthy people. Especially his cousin in Kenya. Why would he support him unless he is just like him?? I say think about it, this guy does not appear to be a true hot blooded Amercian boy which is what this country deserves. It's our right as Americans to have a true Amercian leader. McCain has a true American backround, he even almost died serving his country but I say Obama is not looking like a true American and he's just promising under privlaged people a better life so they will vote for him! All like sheep led to the slaghter and that terrifies me. I not only fear for my kids but so many good people will suffer at the hand of evil men seizing this nation and holding her hostage. Will Obama be the one who will enforces the mark (or will make people have a micro chip) so people can work and get food? He sure looks like one that is being used to get that whole disaster set up from where I'm standing, but I guess time will tell. I am still praying that God will not let Obama win this election, please God help us pick better leaders ones that have the right morals and ethics. I'm sorry but I do not see Obama as a man that is ethical or of true good honest character.

[uruk]

Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling. You'd figgure god could do better than starting fires to get his indignation expressed. After all he once flooded the world and took out two cities in one fiery blast. The California fires seem lame and half-hearted.

And I though he was a loving and forgiving god? Why does he punish then? Doesn't the very act of sin or evil living supposed to bring it' own punishments?

And Isn't his judgement reserved for after we die?

And I don't hate gays, I hate their sin. They need to acknowledge it's sin and then God will heal them. Nobody is born gay, that's just an excuse.I have to whole heartedly disagree with you there. There was this child in my neigborhood who I knew practicaly from his birth. You could tell from a very young age that he was not a "manly" child. When I last ran into him he was living with his "life partner". God will judge people for their sin so I am obligated to share that knowledge with others. Jesus died for all the sins of this world, but once he comes inside us with his Holy Spirit we can't enjoy sinning anymore, the Holy Spirit convicts us of it. Do you get that? God is Holy and His laws are just. Just look at the warnings in scripture about who won't enter Heaven sometime. Do you even know where those are?

I had to go through this confrontation with the Lord about my own sin 4 years ago. I am his child now and he wouldn't allow me to continue on that dark path which does destroy our lives. I started reading scripture and confessing my sins, and he forgave me. Now I walk in the light but it wasn't this way that long ago. I broke every singel one of those Ten Commandments and and ashamed of it. I just wish I had truly come to know the Lord a long time ago so more of my life could have been useful to him. Now I have a powerful testimony of what Jesus can do and I will continue to share that in hopes He can use it to reach others.

P.S. It's not okay that they are trying to enforce laws to quiet the teaching of God's word either. He addresses homosexuality as a sin in scripture and people threaten us for making that known? That's wrong and unfortunately we are probably going to see more pastors in jail because of this. I am upset about that. It's a violation of our constitution and the freedom of speech.
That's the thing about free speech. The law says you are free to speak it, but nowhere in the law does say anyone has to listen to it.

This is an example of fearmongering and bad logic. Making gay marriage legal does not mean that it will become illeagal to speak out against it or that the church has to allow gay marriage. I don't think any pastor has been put in jail for speaking out against gay marriages or homosexuality even in the states where gay marriages are legal.
Isn't bearing false wittness a sin in god''s eyes Kathy?
You are not out and out lieing but you are alluding to something that will never happen inorder to induce fear and sympathy. Sorry that kind of swollop will not fly here.

[kurious_kathy]

sYou'd figgure god could do better than starting fires to get his indignation expressed. After all he once flooded the world and took out two cities in one fiery blast. The California fires seem lame and half-hearted.

And I though he was a loving and forgiving god? Why does he punish then? Doesn't the very act of sin or evil living supposed to bring it' own punishments?

And Isn't his judgement reserved for after we die?

I have to whole heartedly disagree with you there. There was this child in my neigborhood who I knew practicaly from his birth. You could tell from a very young age that he was not a "manly" child. When I last ran into him he was living with his "life partner".
That's the thing about free speech. The law says you are free to speak it, but nowhere in the law does say anyone has to listen to it.

This is an example of fearmongering and bad logic. Making gay marriage legal does not mean that it will become illeagal to speak out against it or that the church has to allow gay marriage. I don't think any pastor has been put in jail for speaking out against gay marriages or homosexuality even in the states where gay marriages are legal.
Isn't bearing false wittness a sin in god''s eyes Kathy?
You are not out and out lieing but you are alluding to something that will never happen inorder to induce fear and sympathy. Sorry that kind of swollop will not fly here.
I have strong opinions that's true, but I am concerned about our nation and the souls of men. I still stand on love what is good and hate what is evil. If I see something is evil I will speak up about it. People want to turn a blind eye and it's not good. There have been pastors arrested and I'm sure we will see more of them. I will have to research their names and locations but I will and then I will get back to you.

And if God orignally created us to be Holy and have fellowship with him doesn't it make sense that he would have to judge sin? He is Holy and we aren't, it's only through Christ's holiness that anyone has a chance of being forgiven and set free. After all there truly is no condemnation for those who are in Christ! I'm not perfect but I do know the one that is!!

[Elizabeth I]

I am a Texas girl and I am appauled at KK's spelling. It's too horrible to contenplaint and should be condemnded.

Check out his spiritual leader Jermiah White sometime,

And after that you could check out his spiritual leader Jeremiah Wright. Could you at least spell your ignorance correctly?

To me that seems pretty empty and meaningless.

As empty as a fundamentalist's head? How can you be so proud of being an ignorant bigot? Do you understand that ignorance and bigotry combined are the cause of most of the trouble and misery in the world, past, present, and to come?

No, you don't. :hb: :bwall

I'd be more than ashamed if I'd murdered someone. Do the police know about this, Kathy?

Spit take - water on the screen! That's what I get for reading this during lunch.

[wolfgirl]

I see you're still here, kk, but you don't seem to want to answer any of the numerous people who have pointed out that there have been fires in California long before there was gay marriage there. And that there are fires in many other states, too. And that those fires kill innocent people who have nothing to do with the gay marriage laws (a really cool god could just kill the actual people responsible for passing the law rather than setting a whole state on fire).

[uruk]

And as for who I killed? I am post abortive. I thought I got out of breaking the killing commandment until I had to deal with that lie I bought when I had my abortion. I was 16 and not ready to be a mom and I thought it was just a glob of tissue, now I see I was wrong. Now the Lord has forgiven me and healed me from that tragedy and I have hope of meeting my aborted baby in heaven. I believe now what the Bible teaches that life begins at conception, but then I was totally clueless. Anyways my abortion was one of the big things that caused me to be on anti depressants/ and liquor for years until God intervened and turned my ife around. It's been 4 years now without anti depressants or liquor and I am grateful for it. This was not by my own strength either, Jesus delivered me from a life of addiction. When I got on meth that last year it was way bad! Lot's of people still struggeling with that one. I was one God saved, it could very well have killed me like it has so many other people.

Well it is very good to see that you got out of that self-destructive lifestyle and depression. Just be sure that you are not replacing one type of addiction with another. Anything taken to extremes can be just as self-destructive as drugs and depression. Remember the verse about "inheriting the wind".

I have had a few friends who also went on a religeous bender to get away from the depression, drugs and prostitution. They went through periods of backsliding and religeous ferver. I saw some of those friends fall to the ultimate depths and a few who still ride the holy roller coaster. Some of them finally broke the chain and found an equilibrium that worked for them. They keep away from the "sin" but then niether are they hell fire and brimstone.

Just remember that just becuse you went holy roller doesn't mean that all the temptations and "evil thoughts" go away. It is a constant struggle to keep yourself on the straight and narrow. My mother (who is deeply religeous) calls it her "cross to bear" for all of her weaknesses.


As for me, I am a strong agnostic and living a very good, fullfilling life. I have a wonderful wife, a good job that I look forward to going to in the morning and I want for nothing.(except for maybe a home theater)
I do no illegal drugs or drink or smoke nor do I engage in promescuity. (Does pornography count?)
I'm more than a bit on the pudgy side though, I guess that's my "heavy" cross to bear.

I don't go to church nor am I a member of any religeon, although I have been known to pray to Joe Pesci on an occasion or two. So when I die and if there is a pearly gate I guess I might have some 'esplainin' to do but so far god has not been knocking on my door. (Mormons don't count!)

I'd say this cold and indifferent universe has been very good to me. I consider myself to be very, very lucky.

[AkuManiMani]

How did things get this bad?

Humans have always been lemmings with over-sized brains, as far as I can tell.

[CurtC]

When I first read KK's post, I thought I read that she "applauded" the same-sex marriage thing in California. It wasn't until later when someone replied, that I noticed she was "appauled."


Well, remember that Moses was angry and broke the first set of commandments. Then God sent him up for a replacement set that makes no mention of murder. So perhaps Kathy seared a kid in its mothers milk.
The Bible clearly says that when God carved the second set of stone tablets, they said the same thing as the first time. And those, which are the only ones the Bible refers to as "The Ten Commandments," are the ones that include thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk. The ten that are usually referred to in modern times, including the prohibition against coveting your neighbor's wife's ass or whatever, are really just ten of the "other" 603 commandments in the Old Testament.

[MCH]

How exactly did things get this bad?
For what it's worth, I've lived through quite a lot of British elections, and listened in on many American ones. It's not got worse, it's just that you are seeing a bad side of it; the tribal/blind fundamentalist faith is nothing new in politics, after all it's largely about morals and what people believe quite deeply are right and wrong. Sometimes this is expressed quite scarily; just mention "Margaret Thatcher" here in certain company and see what amazing reactions you get.

America is not worse - on the contrary, it's relative openness in both freedom of expression and platforms to speak on make them far far better than most in the world. That very openness also exposes the extremes, but it's not right to assume these extremes (so much better reported than boring normal views - for example the existence of this thread) are any more normal than in other places.

Again, FWIW I come from the opposite end of the rather simplistic left-right political spectrum to you (but am certainly not like your family!) and I am used to avoiding certain subjects with some of my naive tree-hugging hippy intellectually chall-... ahem... my left-leaning relations.

[TheLoneBedouin]

Humans have always been lemmings with over-sized brains, as far as I can tell.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_2618448f52223b232a.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14065)

[godless dave]

For what it's worth, I've lived through quite a lot of British elections, and listened in on many American ones. It's not got worse, it's just that you are seeing a bad side of it; the tribal/blind fundamentalist faith is nothing new in politics, after all it's largely about morals and what people believe quite deeply are right and wrong. Sometimes this is expressed quite scarily; just mention "Margaret Thatcher" here in certain company and see what amazing reactions you get.


Good point, bad example. Brits have very good reasons for hating Margaret Thatcher, not made-up ones like she was brought up a Muslim and has a distant cousin who recruits suicide bombers at abortion clinics.

But take a look at the National Party in Britain, or the far-right party in Austria, or Baader-Meinhof sympathizers in Germany, or Slobodan Milosevic's fans in Serbia. Whipping people up with lies and appealing to their bigotry and fear is by no means a uniquely American phenomenon.

[westprog]

If you don't know him or his family, how do you have any way of knowing it's a huge step?

If he's still seeing his relations and talking to them, then it's a big step to stop. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's the wrong thing to do, but it isn't something to be casually decided.

[Tanstaafl]

I have strong opinions that's true, but I am concerned about our nation and the souls of men. I still stand on love what is good and hate what is evil. If I see something is evil I will speak up about it. People want to turn a blind eye and it's not good. There have been pastors arrested and I'm sure we will see more of them. I will have to research their names and locations but I will and then I will get back to you.


I have an alternate theory.

I think you identify those you hate, then convince yourself they're evil to justify your hate.

[Darth Rotor]

So you DON'T endorse John McCain, then? After all, he committed the "sexual sin" of adultery,
Aye, and likely fornication as well . . .
and then put aside his first wife for the less broken model he's using now.
Not quite, my friend, unless you have evidence that he doesn't love Cindy more than her beer distributorship.

What evidence do you have that he does not love his wife? Your use of the word "using" is what triggered this response.

In other news, I note that KK is able to recruit a new fan club each time she drops in to post her personal style of prose on these forums.

Some things never change.

[gentlehorse]

Jesus was the only one that could make a sacrifice that was pleasing to God for us. He never sinned that's why death could not keep him. The penalty of sin is death, but Jesus never sinned so he was resurrected. I know my redeemer lives, he has proven himself to me and millions of other believers.
I know it does take faith to receive this message, I just hope there are some here on JREF capable of having faith. What is a life without faith?To me that seems pretty empty and meaningless. So many try to say this life is all there is, but that is simply just not true. People are living souls that go on forever, either one place or the other. This would be a good time to take this warning about hell seriously as God is not mocked! And maybe for some I seem a bit overpowering, but I do have authority through Christ to speak truth into others lives!
An eternal, all-powerful, all-knowing, infinitely kind and loving god is pleased by the torture and death of the physical incarnation of himself...

Throughout the course of history, there have been scores of god stories, each one as unbelievable as the next. This wise, empathetic, loving god in whom you believe would knowingly put us in the position to choose to believe in the correct unbelievable story or suffer eternal torture. He would do so, having known for eternity that many of us will be incapable of believing, and would torture us for eternity, regardless. In short, he made some of us for the sole purpose of being tortured forever, simply because we are exactly as he made us: incapable of believing an unbelievable story... I couldn't believe if I tried, Kathy. Even if I were to say "I believe", I can't see how this might fool an eternal, all-knowing god. The god in whom you believe has known how I would react to this story since before the beginning of time. And still, I must suffer forever. Your message is one I am simply incapable of receiving.

[Hokulele]

When I first read KK's post, I thought I read that she "applauded" the same-sex marriage thing in California. It wasn't until later when someone replied, that I noticed she was "appauled."


Considering there is some evidence that St. Paul was gay, that is actually funnier than it should be.

[Safe-Keeper]

He loves us so much he gave his son to die for our sins.The Fall is one of the things I really don't like about Christianity. It stems from a time when punishment from serious crimes were passed on from parents to offspring, so that if I, for example, robbed a whole bunch of people and got caught, not only I would get punished - any children I might have would be, too, along with perhaps their kids. The fact that these kids shouldn't be punished because they are innocent slipped the minds of these people - remember, this was 3000 years ago, when morals were drastically different from now.

A way to redeem for your crime, however, was to sacrifice a goat, hence the term scapegoat. You'd take a goat and send it into the desert where it would die of thirst and heat. This killing of an innocent goat somehow made the guilty less so.

Kathy might subscribe to 3000 years old morals and be impressed with God's ridiculous punishment of every human being for the crime of a pair of them (the theft of a n unnamed forbidden fruit) , and His punishment of an innocent party to set things straight. I, however, am not.

seek God with all your heart. He is the one who rewards us when we do. There's not an ounce of evidence that God-fearing people are 'rewarded' by God in any way whatsoever.

Why do you think there is so much aids now? That looks like God's judgment to me but I guess everyone has to decide themselves.So God is a terrorist who has unleashed a viral weapon of mass destruction with a horrific lack of precision (funny how it doesn't only affect gay people, eh, Kathy) that's so far killed millions of people? Yahweh makes Usama look like a rebellious little seven year old sometimes.

But then again, it's God. He's above His own supremely important rules and can murder, cheat, have butt sex, take His own name in vain, lie, eat pork chops and do drugs all He wants, 'cause it ain't Sin when God does it:rolleyes:.

California wildfires: you don't think climate change plays a part, Kathy? You guys (God of the gap people) remind me of primitive native tribes sometimes. Thunder? God. White people arriving with huge black sailing ship? Gods in a gigantic black raven with white wings. Spaniards with guns? Gods with magic thunder weapons. Drought? Clearly we haven't been sacrificing enough corn and dancing enough rain dances. Wildfires near major cities? Punishment from our deity. We must change our sinful ways.

I know it does take faith to receive this messageWhich is just another way to say you've got no evidence and that we just have to take your word for it, in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. Sorry, not gonna happen.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Considering there is some evidence that St. Paul was gay, that is actually funnier than it should be.

Was he the disciple that Jesus "loved the best"? Or was that someone else?

[Hokulele]

Was he the disciple that Jesus "loved the best"? Or was that someone else?


That was John.



(Or was it in the john? No, that was the senator. Never mind.)

[wolfgirl]

California wildfires: you don't think climate change plays a part, Kathy? You guys (God of the gap people) remind me of primitive native tribes sometimes. Thunder? God. White people arriving with huge black sailing ship? Gods in a gigantic black raven with white wings. Spaniards with guns? Gods with magic thunder weapons. Drought? Clearly we haven't been sacrificing enough corn and dancing enough rain dances. Wildfires near major cities? Punishment from our deity. We must change our sinful ways.It absolutely amazes me how absolutely backwards people can be, without even seeing that they're being that way. You're right, it's no different from people explaining thunder when they didn't know better. Once they learned the real explanation, though, they no longer needed a god as an explanation. Yet there are people who, in this day and age, still think wildfires are caused by an angry god. It's sad, really.

[godless dave]

No, this year's California wildfires were caused by an angry God. Last year's California wildfires were caused naturally. You atheists sure are blind!

[Ladewig]

No, this year's California wildfires were caused by an angry God. Last year's California wildfires were caused naturally. You atheists sure are blind!

That's silly. Both this year's and last year's were caused by an angry God. He knew the Californians were going to support the homosexual agenda, so it was fair to start punishing people in advance of their actual sin. There is precedent: when God flooded the earth He killed a lot of babies, but those babies were going to grow up to be wicked people so it was alright to drown them. [/fundamentalist apologist]

[arthwollipot]

Okay, I'm collecting fares for this bus trip to Reductio Ad Absurdum Canyon.

[PBTree]

That was John.



(Or was it in the john? No, that was the senator. Never mind.)


Ok, you got me. :dl:

[PBTree]

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.

Easy :).

No need to sever ties, just move. You can always ring them once a week.

Go to the Aus High Commission in Washington, tell them you are prepared to eat Meat Pies once a week, drive a Holden and will take up Australian Rules as a sport (20 yrs old, still young enough). Then emigrate over here. Tell them I sent you.

We have a few whackos but we keep them in their own suburbs. We also don't have too many bad spelling fruit loops like KK and her kin over here.


;)

[arthwollipot]

We have a few whackos but we keep them in their own suburbs. We also don't have too many bad spelling fruit loops like KK and her kin over here.Ahem.

Fred Nile.

[Laughingmonk]

I have strong opinions that's true, but I am concerned about our nation and the souls of men. I still stand on love what is good and hate what is evil. If I see something is evil I will speak up about it. People want to turn a blind eye and it's not good. There have been pastors arrested and I'm sure we will see more of them. I will have to research their names and locations but I will and then I will get back to you.

And if God orignally created us to be Holy and have fellowship with him doesn't it make sense that he would have to judge sin? He is Holy and we aren't, it's only through Christ's holiness that anyone has a chance of being forgiven and set free. After all there truly is no condemnation for those who are in Christ! I'm not perfect but I do know the one that is!!

Kathy,

From what you have written, I have come to a few conclusions:

1.) You honestly want to do the right thing.

2.) You have listened to yourself and others that you care about, and have found Christianity to have attributes which resonate with how YOu see the world.

3.) Unfortunately, and I cannot say this in any other way, it has left you Culturally Unaware.

You seem to have a thing against the concept of homosexuality. Would it surprise you to know that there are cultures out there that actually look upon it as the norm? Or the fact that some cultures view gender differently than we do? There are even cultures who view heterosexuality as taboo, only indulging in it for procreation, while the ingesting of semen by younger males from older males is a right of passage into manhood?

I suggest you read up on how other cultures view the world. It will allow to understand your own culture better, as well as come to a deeper understanding of how cultures interact with each other.

Ethnocentrism is a huge problem in the world right now. Perhaps some will dispute this with me, and I welcome any arguments to the contrary, but that is where I currently stand.

I doubt whether you know what ethnocentrism means. I am not going to tell you. I want you to figure it out for yourself.

If I sound condescending, I apologize. I honestly want you to grow in your knowledge about the world. Keep in mind, this does not mean I necessarily think you are ignorant, it just means you have little experience in this field.

I liked the story you posted, though I liked it for different reasons. You see divine intervention, wherein I see a person who turned their life around with the belief in something bigger than themselves. I am not going to debate the existence of god with you, that is not the point of this post. I do see that we have something in common, though it is obvious that we let it affect each other differently..



To the OP:

I'd hate to be in the position that you are in. I've been at odds with my family before (me being the ultra right winger and them being super dems), but never to that level.

[Safe-Keeper]

I doubt whether you know what ethnocentrism means. I am not going to tell you. I want you to figure it out for yourself.Learned all about it in social studies class, from one heck of an... objective teacher.

In effect,


pointing out that a lot of Muslims demonstrated after the Muhammad cartoons is ethnocentric and racist because apparently you can't say it without also stating that Muslims as a whole are intolerant.
Going on number one, pointing out Muslim fundamentalists' ethnocentric attitude is ethnocentric.
Number two is an exception. Pointing out others' intolerance is of course accepted and encouraged - as long as it's not Muslims.
Saying that our life as people in the city is better than life as a native in the Amazon rain forest is ethnocentric and racist.
Saying that life as a native in the rain forest is so much better than our life in the city is not ethnocentric or racist.
Attacking the culture of an Islamic country is ethnocentric and racist.
Attacking the culture of the USA is not ethnocentric and racist.
Stating that the Muslim extremists do what they do because they adhere to Islamic teachings is ethnocentric and racist.
Stating that the US and Israelis treat their criminals and enemies in a despicable manner because they adhere to Jewish teaching, and that we kind Norwegians, who are so much better than the Americans in pretty much every way, treat our prisoners justly because of our Christian values, is not ethnocentric or racist.

Her classes indoctrination sessions left me more confused than educated on this subject:rolleyes:, but I think, from reading between the lines, that 'ethnocentric' means something like 'a person who thinks his or her culture is better than another person's culture', which seems to translate in my cynical eyes to 'don't attack aspects of other peoples' cultures, regardless of how unjust and intolerable those aspects are', because It's Their Cultuuuure!

[AWPrime]

What are the success rates of religion run homosexual retraining camps? How is that surpused to work???
I think you answered your own question, it doesn't work.

[Toke]

Just curius as to what flawor of woo they used.

[Ladewig]

Just curius as to what flawor of woo they used.

It can range from fervent prayers coupled with the support of ex-gays to casting out demons. Most encourage the subject to marry someone of the opposite sex rather than simply remain celibate.

[Toke]

Thanks

[Laughingmonk]

@ Safe keeper:

Yes, I have heard those ideas thrown around to. What I was taught, and what I agree with in my experience, is that everyone is ethnocentric to some degree. We are raised in a certain culture, and we adopt it aspects of it that are hard to shift.

As to what your teacher had to say:


* pointing out that a lot of Muslims demonstrated after the Muhammad cartoons is ethnocentric and racist because apparently you can't say it without also stating that Muslims as a whole are intolerant.

I agree that this is baloney.

* Going on number one, pointing out Muslim fundamentalists' ethnocentric attitude is ethnocentric.

Also Baloney

* Number two is an exception. Pointing out others' intolerance is of course accepted and encouraged - as long as it's not Muslims.

It sounds like your teacher was overly tolerant of extremism.

* Saying that our life as people in the city is better than life as a native in the Amazon rain forest is ethnocentric and racist.

This is actually true, though I don't think that is racist. Cultures do not advance the same way. That was called the theory of Uni lineal Evolution, and it is generally viewed as being debunked.


* Saying that life as a native in the rain forest is so much better than our life in the city is not ethnocentric or racist.

This implies that your teacher was ethnocentric.

* Attacking the culture of an Islamic country is ethnocentric and racist.
* Attacking the culture of the USA is not ethnocentric and racist.

Attacking any culture, including your own, is ethnocentric. of course, that really depends on the definition of "Attack."


* Stating that the Muslim extremists do what they do because they adhere to Islamic teachings is ethnocentric and racist.

Not necessarily ethnocentric, but rather stereotyping.

* Stating that the US and Israelis treat their criminals and enemies in a despicable manner because they adhere to Jewish teaching, and that we kind Norwegians, who are so much better than the Americans in pretty much every way, treat our prisoners justly because of our Christian values, is not ethnocentric or racist.

I agree that is rather hypocritical.


It sounds like your teacher, while understanding the idea of ethnocentrism, didn't necessarily understand its true application.

Ethnocentrism is not wrong. It is is not right, either. It just is. For someone to recognize that they indeed have a bias, allows them to have a clearer understanding of other cultures.


Her classes indoctrination sessions left me more confused than educated on this subject, but I think, from reading between the lines, that 'ethnocentric' means something like 'a person who thinks his or her culture is better than another person's culture', which seems to translate in my cynical eyes to 'don't attack aspects of other peoples' cultures, regardless of how unjust and intolerable those aspects are', because It's Their Cultuuuure!

I would say just understand that you, as a human being, have ethnocentric views. This is what I trying to impress upon Kathy. That she understand that she is viewing the world through a very biased lens. When you start getting into the legal aspects of a multicultural society, then things become very interesting, and the ideas right and wrong become extremely complicated.

Mostly, I was trying to impress the idea that things are not as cut and paste as she makes them out to be.

Hope this helps! If you have any further questions, please PM me.

[supercorgi]

Oooo goodie. Kathy's back for another round of drive-by proselytizing. :rolleyes:

[I Ratant]

Kathy,

From what you have written, I have come to a few conclusions:

1.) You honestly want to do the right thing.

2.) You have listened to yourself and others that you care about, and have found Christianity to have attributes which resonate with how YOu see the world.

3.) Unfortunately, and I cannot say this in any other way, it has left you Culturally Unaware.

You seem to have a thing against the concept of homosexuality. Would it surprise you to know that there are cultures out there that actually look upon it as the norm? Or the fact that some cultures view gender differently than we do? There are even cultures who view heterosexuality as taboo, only indulging in it for procreation, while the ingesting of semen by younger males from older males is a right of passage into manhood?

I suggest you read up on how other cultures view the world. It will allow to understand your own culture better, as well as come to a deeper understanding of how cultures interact with each other.

Ethnocentrism is a huge problem in the world right now. Perhaps some will dispute this with me, and I welcome any arguments to the contrary, but that is where I currently stand.

I doubt whether you know what ethnocentrism means. I am not going to tell you. I want you to figure it out for yourself.

If I sound condescending, I apologize. I honestly want you to grow in your knowledge about the world. Keep in mind, this does not mean I necessarily think you are ignorant, it just means you have little experience in this field.

I liked the story you posted, though I liked it for different reasons. You see divine intervention, wherein I see a person who turned their life around with the belief in something bigger than themselves. I am not going to debate the existence of god with you, that is not the point of this post. I do see that we have something in common, though it is obvious that we let it affect each other differently..
...


.
I like this!
Ignorance of the rest of the world is pretty much a sign of the fundamentalist mindset.
"Our way is the ONLY way! It's right here in our book!"
That other books say differently with equal fervor to those who read them is merely a sign that the other books are wrong.
Read enough of these books, and it becomes obvious that all of them are wrong!
True moral behavior transcends any religion.

[PBTree]

Ahem.

Fred Nile.


Agreed, though most of us just smile sadly whenever his name is mentioned. :nope:



:)

[MIKILLINI]

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.

No offense KF, but your elders are nuts. I feel bad for your sisters because they are being influenced by this same knee-jerk emotional immaturity. I know it must sadden you tremendously since you care deeply about them.
I suggest to break off ties, but somehow keep from severing them, because in the future you may be needed for your stability and common sense.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Racism?

Actually today I heard something rather interesting listening in on a conversation between my mother and sister. I walked in half-way through the conversation and may have missing pieces that are necessary to put the quote in full context but I distinctly remember hearing my mom say "You're not dating no black boys" and that's an exact quote mind you. It wasn't that my sister is too young to date it's that the kid was black. Now, my mother claims she isn't a racist but I don't buy it. When I was younger she told me that I couldn't date a black girl for the reason that "we don't mix races" and the explanation for that was "God cursed black people". When she met my current girlfriend she reacted with genuine shock (as did every other member of my family) when they met my black girlfriend. On my mother's side of the family you can throw a rock and you're guaranteed to find criminals, a handful of murderers, white trash, drug addicts, child/spousal abusers and everyone one of them is a racist.

There was another incident a little while back in which my mother was telling me about Paul Mooney and his appearance on The Dr. Phil Show. Apparently since I'm the family anti-racist and multi-culturalist that means everytime an African-American acts callously I need to hear about, similiar to my being an atheist means that everytime someone commits a godless act I also need to hear about it. Anyways, I pretty much made a judge of my mom's character and determined that she was a racist based on what she said. Apparently Paul Mooney made a comment about an old study regarding black children and picking out the doll they found most attractive, which was the white one. And Paul Mooney said if he were there he would ask the kids to pick out the doll most-likely to be a serial killer and shoot up a school or a mall, meaning the white ones again. And rather than attack his argument or Paul Mooney himself my mom responded by saying "and if I were there I would ask the kids to pick out the doll that is most-likely to rob a liquor store, cheat the welfare system, rape a white girl, and have 9 babies...and ya know what there are white girls out there with 9 babies but I bet they had them with a black boy!" So rather than attack the argument or Mooney she went after the entire black race, I told her that pretty much sures up her racist credentials.

If he's still seeing his relations and talking to them, then it's a big step to stop. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's the wrong thing to do, but it isn't something to be casually decided.

Well my uncle, for the record, I'm not on good terms with but I make an attempt for his kids. The situation, like you said, is far more complex that what it seems.

[Polaris]

Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling.

And I don't hate gays, I hate their sin. They need to acknowledge it's sin and then God will heal them. Nobody is born gay, that's just an excuse. God will judge people for their sin so I am obligated to share that knowledge with others. Jesus died for all the sins of this world, but once he comes inside us with his Holy Spirit we can't enjoy sinning anymore, the Holy Spirit convicts us of it. Do you get that? God is Holy and His laws are just. Just look at the warnings in scripture about who won't enter Heaven sometime. Do you even know where those are?


Interesting choice of words from someone who hates gays so much.

For the record I'd probably not enjoy sinning (or much else for that matter) if a man came inside me with his Holy Spirit.

[westprog]

Well my uncle, for the record, I'm not on good terms with but I make an attempt for his kids. The situation, like you said, is far more complex that what it seems.


It always is. Internet forums are not a great place for getting detailed advice about what to do in your life (though telling a bunch of strangers can be a good way to vent). You have many years of detailed experience of all these people. We have a few hundred words.


I wonder* how the black girlfriend affects your mothers attitude? She's a nice girl, so unlike the rest of them; she's a nice girl, so maybe they're all OK really; she can't be a nice girl so I won't talk to her; I have no son; and so on. How far one compromises in order to stay in touch with one's family is a personal decision.

*The fact that I wonder about it doesn't mean that you have to comment, of course.

[kurious_kathy]

That's silly. Both this year's and last year's were caused by an angry God. He knew the Californians were going to support the homosexual agenda, so it was fair to start punishing people in advance of their actual sin. There is precedent: when God flooded the earth He killed a lot of babies, but those babies were going to grow up to be wicked people so it was alright to drown them. [/fundamentalist apologist] Well if you will recall the majority voted no on gay marriage and the judge over turned the majority vote. How the heck can they get away with that? I hope they over turn that descision. I think we are paying consequences of that act and I'm sorry you can't understand that. In fact I believe the whole USA is in big trouble if they do not repent! I will stand for what I know God says is evil whether you like it or not. After all I would rather be pleasing to my maker than people. I gave up people pleasing a long time ago.

[Beanbag]

Well if you will recall the majority voted no on gay marriage and the judge over turned the majority vote. How the heck can they get away with that?
Probably the same way the priests came up with all the obscure rules and do-nots that managed to make most normal human functions a sin. I don't think the majority agreed with the new policy, yet somehow it became religious law.

Deal with it. Just because everybody "just knew" blacks were inferior didn't make it so. Just because you swallowed that religious codswallop that there's something fundamentally wrong with mankind doesn't mean everybody believes that lie. Nor do they wish to. Rather than waste your (and their) time, why not go to the closet and atone for your own manufactured sins and quit bothering the grown-ups, who are trying to have an adult conversation? Be a good girl and run along.

Beanbag

[Ladewig]

Well if you will recall the majority voted no on gay marriage and the judge over turned the majority vote. How the heck can they get away with that? I hope they over turn that descision. I think we are paying consequences of that act and I'm sorry you can't understand that. In fact I believe the whole USA is in big trouble if they do not repent!

Does Christian Dude agree with that position?

I will stand for what I know God says is evil whether you like it or not.

Here we come to the crux of the matter. Even though homosexuality harms no one, does not injury society in any way, and is widely accepted in more progressive societies, you consider it evil. I reserve that word for actions that harm innocent people.

[wolfgirl]

Well if you will recall the majority voted no on gay marriage and the judge over turned the majority vote. How the heck can they get away with that?Well, if you recall, we have something called the Constitution that guides our laws. It protects all of our rights and freedoms. Including gay people's. And that means that, even if everybody votes to not let gays have equal rights, the Constitution says that they do. And the judges' job is to guard and defend the Constitution. So that means that whether you like it or not, gays are equal and their rights must be protected from people like you who think they can just vote them away.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

If anyone is interested I think I just got confirmation that my mother is simply attempting to dehumanize Obama and doesn't believe the anti-Christ dribble. She just went on another rant about how Obama is going to be elected, assassinated, resurrect, and lead the world into the end-times and almost immediately afterwards she asked my brothers and sisters to start making out their Christmas lists.

And can anyone answer me if the whole assassination and resurrection thing is biblical? I know next to nothing on Revelation and I'm curious if the anti-Christ so-called prophecies include anything on the anti-Christ being assassinated and then resurrected similar to J.C.

[westprog]

If anyone is interested I think I just got confirmation that my mother is simply attempting to dehumanize Obama and doesn't believe the anti-Christ dribble. She just went on another rant about how Obama is going to be elected, assassinated, resurrect, and lead the world into the end-times and almost immediately afterwards she asked my brothers and sisters to start making out their Christmas lists.

And can anyone answer me if the whole assassination and resurrection thing is biblical? I know next to nothing on Revelation and I'm curious if the anti-Christ so-called prophecies include anything on the anti-Christ being assassinated and then resurrected similar to J.C.

I think that to find this stuff in the actual Bible you'd have to use very flexible interpretation.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I think that to find this stuff in the actual Bible you'd have to use very flexible interpretation.

That's what I thought. Considering that for the last two elections members of my family have accused every front-running Democratic candidate of being the anti-Christ or leading us to the anti-Christ; I figured that they didn't have a biblical basis but were just attempting to demonize the opposition.

[westprog]

That's what I thought. Considering that for the last two elections members of my family have accused every front-running Democratic candidate of being the anti-Christ or leading us to the anti-Christ; I figured that they didn't have a biblical basis but were just attempting to demonize the opposition.


A fixation with Revelations at the expense of the gospels is not a good sign.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

A fixation with Revelations at the expense of the gospels is not a good sign.

I think you've just summed up my entire former denomination. Just throw in an unhealthy obsession with the Republican party to the point of loving the GOP more then the JC and a bit of KJV-onlyism and you've got them.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

And can anyone answer me if the whole assassination and resurrection thing is biblical? I know next to nothing on Revelation and I'm curious if the anti-Christ so-called prophecies include anything on the anti-Christ being assassinated and then resurrected similar to J.C.

Looking for some passages on this if anyone can help.

[gentlehorse]

And can anyone answer me if the whole assassination and resurrection thing is biblical? I know next to nothing on Revelation and I'm curious if the anti-Christ so-called prophecies include anything on the anti-Christ being assassinated and then resurrected similar to J.C.

Your mom might be referring to Revelation 13:3:

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013;&version=9;

[kurious_kathy]

Does Christian Dude agree with that position?


Here we come to the crux of the matter. Even though homosexuality harms no one, does not injury society in any way, and is widely accepted in more progressive societies, you consider it evil. I reserve that word for actions that harm innocent people.
I'll let my hubby answer you when he gets a moment.

And as far as the reality of homosexual behavoir, "it does too hurt people!" I know some gay people and I try to reach out to them and let them know God will forgive them and heal them if they choose to ask him into their lives. A spirit filled person knows it's wrong because the Holy Spirit will reveal it to them. I quess until someone is saved they just can't see what sin is. It's sad for me because I'm on the other side now and I do see sin, it's everywere and none of us can save ourselves from the effects of it. Sin is evil because it condemns us. The good news is there is a way out!

[kurious_kathy]

I see you're still here, kk, but you don't seem to want to answer any of the numerous people who have pointed out that there have been fires in California long before there was gay marriage there. And that there are fires in many other states, too. And that those fires kill innocent people who have nothing to do with the gay marriage laws (a really cool god could just kill the actual people responsible for passing the law rather than setting a whole state on fire).

Yes, what we call natural disasters are on the rise everywhere, but I do not think they are just natural disasters and I know I'm not the only one. Many think God may be allowing these to increase for a reason. People do cry out to God when they are in crisis so perhaps there is some good that comes from these kinds of hardships, people who are desperate may be more open to seek God!

[kurious_kathy]

If anyone is interested I think I just got confirmation that my mother is simply attempting to dehumanize Obama and doesn't believe the anti-Christ dribble. She just went on another rant about how Obama is going to be elected, assassinated, resurrect, and lead the world into the end-times and almost immediately afterwards she asked my brothers and sisters to start making out their Christmas lists.

And can anyone answer me if the whole assassination and resurrection thing is biblical? I know next to nothing on Revelation and I'm curious if the anti-Christ so-called prophecies include anything on the anti-Christ being assassinated and then resurrected similar to J.C.Boy I like your mom already, she sees there is real concerns about Obama.

And yes it is in scripture that the anti-Christ will be killed and he will come back to life again and people will think it's a sign from God. The truth is it's a deception God has aloud and I still have a hard time with that. Why does Satan get any power to deceive people? I must say I do not like that part at all as many are like sheep led to the slaughter with all the spiritual deception that is in this world!

[Toke]

We are the least religius people in the world and have next to no natural disasters.
Perhaps god love atheist.

[kurious_kathy]

Well, if you recall, we have something called the Constitution that guides our laws. It protects all of our rights and freedoms. Including gay people's. And that means that, even if everybody votes to not let gays have equal rights, the Constitution says that they do. And the judges' job is to guard and defend the Constitution. So that means that whether you like it or not, gays are equal and their rights must be protected from people like you who think they can just vote them away.
Oh so you think we have a Constitution to believe in still, I do not see it so much anymore? I support the ACLJ which is always fighting the ACLU and their lowsy games. I also see how many politicians have been voting and they are taking more and more freedoms away from us, and what about our freedom of speech, they are trying really hard to take that away from us and that is unconstitutional.

I'm asking you why are we even paying these guys that are doing us wrong? Maybe the US would be better off without the government as all I see is more and more men with their own power hungry agenda at work and they are not helping for the most part. All we need now is a ring leader like Obama who is hiding some very dark things to be in charge. It really does appear to be a game kind of like Russian roulette. Bad governemnt cannot be any better than no government at all, can it? Are there any good men that fear God in government anymore?? Our government is suppose to rest on God's shoulders, now we have too many people in government who do not even respect or know God.

[westprog]

I think you've just summed up my entire former denomination. Just throw in an unhealthy obsession with the Republican party to the point of loving the GOP more then the JC and a bit of KJV-onlyism and you've got them.


The history of the translation of the KJV is an interesting topic in itself. The paradox of American* devotion to the pilgrim fathers who fled King James' religious persecution, and the attachment to the translation that was created to fill his particular political requirements is fascinating.

At the extreme, you get the "God hates fags" "Christians" who if they show any interest in John 3:8-11 it's only to try to explain it away.

*Clearly not all Americans!

[westprog]

And yes it is in scripture that the anti-Christ will be killed and he will come back to life again and people will think it's a sign from God.


Reference?

[Ladewig]

I'll let my hubby answer you when he gets a moment.

And as far as the reality of homosexual behavoir, "it does too hurt people!" I know some gay people and I try to reach out to them and let them know God will forgive them and heal them if they choose to ask him into their lives. A spirit filled person knows it's wrong because the Holy Spirit will reveal it to them. I quess until someone is saved they just can't see what sin is. It's sad for me because I'm on the other side now and I do see sin, it's everywere and none of us can save ourselves from the effects of it. Sin is evil because it condemns us. The good news is there is a way out!

You found a path that gives you comfort, peace, a sense of community, and a goal. Good for you. The problem is that you think that your path is the only one that provides these things. It most certainly is not. There are Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, agnostics, and atheists that all feel comfort, peace, and happiness. If you just went on your merry way without posting your bigotry on a skeptic board, I would wish you well and be glad that we both could subscribe to the belief of "live and let live." But you don't subscribe to that philosophy. Gay people do not need to be healed. Gay people are not evil. Why don't you pack up your small-mindedness and go post somewhere else? No one who has read any of your posts is tempted to become a Christian. You really aren't helping your denomination at all.


. . . . . . . .
ETA: I just read some of your other comments (Obama thread) and see I completely missed the mark. You are not happy and contented. You are fearful, anxious, and paranoid. You irrationally believe that a man who attended a Christian church for most of his life is a closet Muslim sent to fulfill an end-times prophesy. If being a Christian gives you so much anxiety, I suggest you give it up. Life is too short to live that way.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Boy I like your mom already, she sees there is real concerns about Obama.

You may want to seriously reconsider your amorous stance with her. She's a virulent racist, xenophobe, religious bigot, and a foot-soldier in the GOP army. With Gore and Kerry she believed they both were going to lead us to the anti-Christ. She would never have out-right called Barack Obama the anti-Christ if he wasn't the Democratic nominee, black, has an non-Anglican name, and suspected by some loons of being a Muslim. She went on a tirade the other day, again, about a black boy who has a crush on my younger sister. She told her the same thing, mixing races is against our religion. She never was able to cite a single verse that tells people they cannot mix races. But she's basing it on the misinterpretation, and you and I both know that's a misinterpretation, of the story of Noah cursing the fourth son of Ham Canaan. I explained to her that Canaan was the father of the Canaanites and the modern Canaanites would be the Palestinians, not sub-Saharan Africans. But she still holds on to her misinterpretation claiming that Ham was the one cursed and Ham was the father of the black race. Hence, blacks are cursed by God. She's never read the bible, at least not fully, either. She relies on her husband for her interpretation and his views on the bible are twisted enough.

[westprog]

She's never read the bible


I don't find this the least bit unusual. Whatever else about Islamic fundamentalists, they are expected to read the Koran themselves, and to learn large chunks of it off by heart.

[CurtC]

We are the least religius people in the world and have next to no natural disasters.
Perhaps god love atheist.

If there's anything that hurricane Katrina taught us, it's that God protects gays. The city was devastated, except for the French Quarter which is the place where all the gays live. Some have proposed putting gays in strategic locations of large cities so those areas will be protected from God's wrath.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

If there's anything that hurricane Katrina taught us, it's that God protects gays. The city was devastated, except for the French Quarter which is the place where all the gays live. Some have proposed putting gays in strategic locations of large cities so those areas will be protected from God's wrath.

:D

[Flo]

You may want to seriously reconsider your amorous stance with her. She's a virulent racist, xenophobe, religious bigot, and a foot-soldier in the GOP army. With Gore and Kerry she believed they both were going to lead us to the anti-Christ. She would never have out-right called Barack Obama the anti-Christ if he wasn't the Democratic nominee, black, has an non-Anglican name, and suspected by some loons of being a Muslim. She went on a tirade the other day, again, about a black boy who has a crush on my younger sister. She told her the same thing, mixing races is against our religion. She never was able to cite a single verse that tells people they cannot mix races. But she's basing it on the misinterpretation, and you and I both know that's a misinterpretation, of the story of Noah cursing the fourth son of Ham Canaan. I explained to her that Canaan was the father of the Canaanites and the modern Canaanites would be the Palestinians, not sub-Saharan Africans. But she still holds on to her misinterpretation claiming that Ham was the one cursed and Ham was the father of the black race. Hence, blacks are cursed by God. She's never read the bible, at least not fully, either. She relies on her husband for her interpretation and his views on the bible are twisted enough.


Except maybe for the anti-blacks racism, that describes KK almost to a K ... the worst part is she looks proud of it :(

I don't find this the least bit unusual. Whatever else about Islamic fundamentalists, they are expected to read the Koran themselves, and to learn large chunks of it off by heart.

Most muslims outside of arabic countries don't understand arabic. They may learn the koran by heart but mostly don't know what they are saying and are left to the interpretation of the local imam (who may himself be a perfect illiterate ...). That includes most Iranians, Turks, Pakistani, Afghani, South-eastern Asian, Sub-saharian Africans, Eastern European muslims, etc.

[Safe-Keeper]

Yes, what we call natural disasters are on the rise everywhere, but I do not think they are just natural disasters and I know I'm not the only one. Many think God may be allowing these to increase for a reason. People do cry out to God when they are in crisis so perhaps there is some good that comes from these kinds of hardships, people who are desperate may be more open to seek God!And you don't find it the least bit dubious morality-wise that He's allegedly doing this? Certainly you'd find it immoral if I set fire to your community so that 60% of the residents lost their homes and two of them were killed, regardless of how many "found God" or became better friends with their neighbors afterward.

Oh so you think we have a Constitution to believe in still, I do not see it so much anymore? I support the ACLJ which is always fighting the ACLU and their lowsy games. Cough (http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/).

The ACLU is committed to upholding the Constitution. If this means it has to continually attack Christians, it means said Christians aren't respecting the Constitution and thus need to be challenged, not that the ACLU is somehow evil.

I also see how many politicians have been voting and they are taking more and more freedoms away from us, and what about our freedom of speech, they are trying really hard to take that away from us and that is unconstitutional.I don't follow. Please give examples of the US government trying to take away your freedom of speech.

Are there any good men that fear God in government anymore?? Our government is suppose to rest on God's shoulders, now we have too many people in government who do not even respect or know God.
I thought you lived in the States. Sorry. What country are you really talking about, then:p?

Some have proposed putting gays in strategic locations of large cities so those areas will be protected from God's wrath.Why stop there? Make the military an all-gay, all-lesbian Fighting Force of Pink and it'll be blessed and overlooked by Him:D!

[Foster Zygote]

Oh so you think we have a Constitution to believe in still, I do not see it so much anymore? I support the ACLJ which is always fighting the ACLU and their lowsy games. I also see how many politicians have been voting and they are taking more and more freedoms away from us, and what about our freedom of speech, they are trying really hard to take that away from us and that is unconstitutional.
Jay Sekulow's integrity, or rather its lack has been gone over a good deal in DOC's "Thomas Jefferson" thread.

I posted this response to DOC in that thread in post #1037:
I mean do your really think the public school teacher in Utah would be able to attend that after hour bible club on public school property if it wasn't for the American Center of Law and Justice.
Yes, I do. In fact, I'll bet that if the teacher and students had contacted the ACLU they would have been willing to represent them as they have a right to meet together just like the French Club, History Club, Dungeons & Dragons Club or heck, even the Atheist Club. This whole "Evil, atheist, Communist, queer loving, Jesus hating, smut peddling, liberals are trying to make it illegal for you to pray and soon the black helicopters will be using listening devices to detect prayers in your own home and the NWO Stormtroopers will be breaking down your doors and hauling you and your children off for re-programming" is wearing a bit thin. As long as the Bible Club meets during off hours and isn't part of the school curricula they have as much right as the Glee Club, the Muslim Club, or the Gay Teens Club etc. to meet. Students and faculty can pray all they want too as long as it doesn't interfere with the curricula and it isn't forced upon students in any "official" capacity. If a student wants to say a quick prayer before a test that's perfectly within his/her rights as a citizen as long as the prayer doesn't disturb other students during their studies. An example of the sort of thing that is illegal would be the superintendent using the PA system prior to the SAT exams to announce "And now all students and faculty bow your heads as I recite a prayer to our lord Jesus Christ".

The reason the after school club is legal is that it does not interfere with the standard curricula, it is not imposed as an official religious activity of a state institution, and those who want nothing to do with it have the freedom to have nothing to do with it. The school is simply providing a space where students with a common interest can meet.

The reason the pre-test PA prayer announcement is illegal is because it involves a state institution imposing a religious practice on everyone regardless of their own desires.

Then there was Slingblade's post #671 in which she presented the following from the U.S. Department of Education:
Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," [ 9 ] and the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." [ 10 ] Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. [ 11 ] For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," [ 12 ] and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech.

[ 9 ] Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969).

[ 10 ] Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995).

[ 11 ] Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302 (explaining that "not every message" that is "authorized by a government policy and take[s] place on government property at government-sponsored school-related events" is "the government's own").

[ 12 ] Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.
No one is trying to take away your free speech Kathy. The laws that people like you decry as "taking away your rights" are actually there to protect you and everyone else. I suspect that you think it would be a brilliant success for freedom of speech if a high school teacher gave a ten minute sermon on the Ten Commandments at the start of each school day. But let me ask you to consider this: What if the teacher was a Muslim and gave a sermon on the Koran to your children every morning?


I'm asking you why are we even paying these guys that are doing us wrong?
So judges are doing wrong when they uphold the Constitution by affirming the rights of homosexuals against the wishes of the majority of the population? Gee, that's really bad news for African Americans in the South.

Maybe the US would be better off without the government as all I see is more and more men with their own power hungry agenda at work and they are not helping for the most part.
"This steering wheel is loose and it keeps cutting into my thighs. Do we really need it?"

All we need now is a ring leader like Obama who is hiding some very dark things to be in charge.
What dark things?

It really does appear to be a game kind of like Russian roulette. Bad governemnt cannot be any better than no government at all, can it?
Well there's the FATA region of Pakistan, and Somalia. If you want tribal warfare, warlords with private armies, poverty, starvation etc., then having no real government is a good start.

Are there any good men that fear God in government anymore??
There are a great many Christians in government Kathy. Why do you think that this is not the case? Is it because they do not push to turn the U.S. into a Christian theocracy?

Our government is suppose to rest on God's shoulders, now we have too many people in government who do not even respect or know God.
Please show us where in the U.S. Constitution it states that this is a nation founded on any god, or where it says that anyone holding office must be a member of any religious group.

[joobz]

What dark things?
*Homer simpson whisper*
I think she means his skin.

[angelsaramark]

Whatever your view on sin (as defined by the bible); and I really don't care, so don't tell me, it seems we are now in a time where the bible can be checked for accuracy. With divorce rates at historic highs among other sins as defined by the bible our nation is in jeopardy of judgement. So if there is a God, we'll not last much longer as a nation (e.g. Sodom / Gomorrah).

So if we get conquered by some unknown entity and / or cease to exist for other reasons in the next few years, does this prove anything?

[Safe-Keeper]

Are there any good men that fear God in government anymore?? Let's see. You need to be Christian to be elected President; atheists can't join the Boy Scouts; civil rights workers had to fight tooth and nail to throw mandatory prayer out of school; the Theory of Evolution has been censored from many public schools in favour of "Intelligent Design" and Christian myths, and atheists are distrusted more than Muslims, dollar bills have Christian slogans on them, and the President was able to use religious jargon to get people to support the war in Iraq...

...but no, Kathy, I don't think America is much of a Christian-controlled nation anymore:rolleyes:.

Seriously - stow the persecution complex already. It's bad enough that people push such transparent nonsense if others aren't going to start buying it, too.

[Foster Zygote]

I'll let my hubby answer you when he gets a moment.

And as far as the reality of homosexual behavoir, "it does too hurt people!" I know some gay people and I try to reach out to them and let them know God will forgive them and heal them if they choose to ask him into their lives. A spirit filled person knows it's wrong because the Holy Spirit will reveal it to them. I quess until someone is saved they just can't see what sin is. It's sad for me because I'm on the other side now and I do see sin, it's everywere and none of us can save ourselves from the effects of it. Sin is evil because it condemns us. The good news is there is a way out!

So you think that the government should be in the business of forbidding gay marriage because it is a sin? I can point out two huge problems with your argument:

Firstly, the government is not in the business of enforcing religious rules. The government can't enforce Christian prohibitions on homosexuality any more than it can enforce Islamic prohibitions on eating pork.

Secondly, if you are going to justify restricting the rights of homosexuals based on Biblical definitions of sin then it sets a precedent for restricting the rights of others who behave in ways that are declared sinful by Christians. For instance, you could argue that rejecting Christ is a sin just as homosexuality is. Therefore it is every bit as just to restrict the practice of Islam or atheism as it is to restrict the practice of homosexuality.

[Hokulele]

So you think that the government should be in the business of forbidding gay marriage because it is a sin? I can point out two huge problems with your argument:

Firstly, the government is not in the business of enforcing religious rules. The government can't enforce Christian prohibitions on homosexuality any more than it can enforce Islamic prohibitions on eating pork.

Secondly, if you are going to justify restricting the rights of homosexuals based on Biblical definitions of sin then it sets a precedent for restricting the rights of others who behave in ways that are declared sinful by Christians. For instance, you could argue that rejecting Christ is a sin just as homosexuality is. Therefore it is every bit as just to restrict the practice of Islam or atheism as it is to restrict the practice of homosexuality.


It can also restrict women from becoming college professors or anything else involving adult education.

[CurtC]

And you don't find it the least bit dubious morality-wise that He's allegedly doing this? Certainly you'd find it immoral if I set fire to your community so that 60% of the residents lost their homes and two of them were killed...

Well, if a few of them started believing in you, then it would all be worth it. All hail Safe-Keeper! We're not worthy!

[Foster Zygote]

Whatever your view on sin (as defined by the bible); and I really don't care, so don't tell me, it seems we are now in a time where the bible can be checked for accuracy.
The problem is that you can't accurately measure ambiguity.

With divorce rates at historic highs among other sins as defined by the bible our nation is in jeopardy of judgement. So if there is a God, we'll not last much longer as a nation (e.g. Sodom / Gomorrah).
So if the U.S. does collapse, we should blame people like my sister for divorcing her philandering, alcoholic, psychologically abusive husband before he could totally ruin her and her two children's lives? Or my friend for divorcing her philandering, physically abusive, coke-addicted husband before he started beating their son?

Thanks a lot Slingblade. It's all your fault for not staying with that cheating drug addict who punched you and psychologically tortured you.

So if we get conquered by some unknown entity and / or cease to exist for other reasons in the next few years, does this prove anything?
Considering that people have been pretty much constantly predicting the imminent collapse of various cultures throughout history, I'd have to say "no".

[Ladewig]

it seems we are now in a time where the bible can be checked for accuracy.

What are you talking about?

[tomwaits]

How did things get this RAD???

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_214124901066089866.jpg

[Foster Zygote]

How did things get this RAD???

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_214124901066089866.jpg

An NWO Kitty beach assault!

[Safe-Keeper]

With divorce rates at historic highs among other sins as defined by the bible our nation is in jeopardy of judgment.If there's a psychopath in the sky preparing for a terrorist act or war on some people on Earth, He is the one with a problem. "Entity x is punishing you, so you're wrong and He is good" is not a good argument.

[Elizabeth I]

You may want to seriously reconsider your amorous stance with her. She's a virulent racist, xenophobe, religious bigot, and a foot-soldier in the GOP army.

Nope, KK would fall instantly into (Platonic, agapean only, of course) love and she and your mother would be bosom friends forever and ever. (Excuse me for saying "bosom;" I will now go do penance for using such a suggestive word.)

Secondly, if you are going to justify restricting the rights of homosexuals based on Biblical definitions of sin then it sets a precedent for restricting the rights of others who behave in ways that are declared sinful by Christians. For instance, you could argue that rejecting Christ is a sin just as homosexuality is. Therefore it is every bit as just to restrict the practice of Islam or atheism as it is to restrict the practice of homosexuality.

Um, I think KK is actually arguing for that point of view. She would be thrilled to see every other form of worship (and non-worship) made into criminal offenses.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Um, I think KK is actually arguing for that point of view. She would be thrilled to see every other form of worship (and non-worship) made into criminal offenses.

I think what you're trying to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that KK is a theocrat.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I found a very interesting article on the whole Obama is the anti-Christ deal.

To me, the number of people who think it's true is both surprising and very sad.
What has our world come to when a man is called the Antichrist for having a good message?

I realize that many people tend to have negative opinions of politicians. I can almost understand how a politician that seems genuine could be scary.

People are afraid of things they're not used to, but calling Obama the Antichrist takes it a little too far.

"I feel in my soul that he is the Antichrist," Howser, a member of apostropher.com, posted in a forum. "He's too good to believe."

People in these forums seem to be forgetting an important fact. Obama doesn't fit the Bible's description of the Antichrist.

The Bible states the Antichrist will not desire women, which leaves most people to think the Antichrist will be homosexual or celibate.

Obama, who has a wife and two young daughters, clearly desires women. Therefore, he doesn't fit in those categories.

Full Article (http://media.www.patriotnewsonline.com/media/storage/paper1198/news/2008/02/04/VoicesTimes/Barack.Obama.Not.Likely.To.Be.Antichrist-3180715.shtml)

Emphasis mine. Can anyone give me relevent passages on this?

ETA: Found something.

Daniel 11:37 -- “He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all."

Thoughts?

[wolfgirl]

And as far as the reality of homosexual behavoir, "it does too hurt people!" How, Kathy. Tell us how homosexuality hurts you. Or me. Or your family. Or anyone else. It has absolutely no effect on you or your life. Didn't you mom teach you to mind your own damn business?

[arthwollipot]

The Bible states the Antichrist will not desire women, which leaves most people to think the Antichrist will be homosexual or celibate.But wasn't there this whole Whore of Babylon thing? Or were they just friends?

[Hokulele]

I found a very interesting article on the whole Obama is the anti-Christ deal.



Full Article (http://media.www.patriotnewsonline.com/media/storage/paper1198/news/2008/02/04/VoicesTimes/Barack.Obama.Not.Likely.To.Be.Antichrist-3180715.shtml)

Emphasis mine. Can anyone give me relevent passages on this?

ETA: Found something.

Daniel 11:37 -- “He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all."

Thoughts?


That's most likely the correct reference, but it is tough comparing OT prophecies with NT ones. Most of the OT prophecies seems to be referring to actual people and leaders. NT prophecies often talk about spirits inhabiting people, rather than the people themselves. See the discussions regarding the anti-christ in John's letters. Revelation is completely different in that the whole thing can be read metaphorically (at least by sane people).

Modern Christian fundamentalists like to lump all of the various prophecy types together, and often seem to confuse metaphorical speech with literal speech, and description of contemporary events (I mean biblical contemporary) with predictions of future events.

Back to the verse from Daniel, in context it sounds like the passage was meant to be a prediction for the short term, based on current events ("Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come."). Although I admit, by the end of the vision, the man to whom Daniel is talking gets very vague about time frames, which is useful if you are a prophet.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

[Ladewig]

Does Christian Dude agree with that position?

Specifically, does CD believe that natural disasters are the result of God being displeased with our country's policies?

[Ladewig]

Here we come to the crux of the matter. Even though homosexuality harms no one, does not injury society in any way, and is widely accepted in more progressive societies, you consider it evil. I reserve that word for actions that harm innocent people.




And as far as the reality of homosexual behavoir, "it does too hurt people!" I know some gay people and I try to reach out to them and let them know God will forgive them and heal them if they choose to ask him into their lives. A spirit filled person knows it's wrong because the Holy Spirit will reveal it to them. I quess until someone is saved they just can't see what sin is. It's sad for me because I'm on the other side now and I do see sin, it's everywere and none of us can save ourselves from the effects of it. Sin is evil because it condemns us. The good news is there is a way out!

You see all sins as evil. As I said earlier, evil is best defined as actions that harm unwilling participants. Thus murder is evil (and is a Christian sin). Slavery is also evil (but is not a Christian sin). Coveting things is not evil (but is a Christain sin). I'll agree that many Christians define homosexuality as a sin, but I see no reason to consider it evil.

I do hope you'll see that calling homosexuality evil is the type of bigotry that prevents the US from making progress in the 21st century.

[angelsaramark]

"Just because you swallowed that religious codswallop that there's something fundamentally wrong with mankind doesn't mean everybody believes that lie."

Methinks you'll be hard pressed to prove that one. There is plenty of evidence to support things being fundamentally wrong with humanity.

[arthwollipot]

"Just because you swallowed that religious codswallop that there's something fundamentally wrong with mankind doesn't mean everybody believes that lie."

Methinks you'll be hard pressed to prove that one. There is plenty of evidence to support things being fundamentally wrong with humanity.Examples please. And while you're at it, please define "wrong".

[quixotecoyote]

"Just because you swallowed that religious codswallop that there's something fundamentally wrong with mankind doesn't mean everybody believes that lie."

Methinks you'll be hard pressed to prove that one. There is plenty of evidence to support things being fundamentally wrong with humanity.

There's plenty unpleasant about humanity, but the evidence of the overwhelming success of this particular brand of tribal primates tends to suggest that the species as a whole is doing pretty well. It's just that things working right at that level tends to produce nasty side-effects that we've managed to ameliorate in some but certainly not all cases.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Except maybe for the anti-blacks racism, that describes KK almost to a K ... the worst part is she looks proud of it :(

When her young daughters ask her what a terrorist is does she respond by saying "foreign people"?

[kurious_kathy]

"Just because you swallowed that religious codswallop that there's something fundamentally wrong with mankind doesn't mean everybody believes that lie."

Methinks you'll be hard pressed to prove that one. There is plenty of evidence to support things being fundamentally wrong with humanity.
Well to me one little word sums it up pretty good, SIN! We are born into a fallen world and the evidence is everywhere. And what about the question of why people die? Does not God's explanation in scripture pretty well sum it up??

[Lonewulf]

And what about the question of why people die?
An explanation of that does not require the God hypothesis. There is nothing supernatural about dying.

[shadron]

Whatever your view on sin (as defined by the bible); and I really don't care, so don't tell me, it seems we are now in a time where the bible can be checked for accuracy. With divorce rates at historic highs among other sins as defined by the bible our nation is in jeopardy of judgement. So if there is a God, we'll not last much longer as a nation (e.g. Sodom / Gomorrah).

So if we get conquered by some unknown entity and / or cease to exist for other reasons in the next few years, does this prove anything?

No, I don't think so. Did anything "Sodom / Gomorrah"'ish happen when France was overrun by the Germans in WWII? How about after we invaded and occupied Germany and Japan? Or when the USSR invaded Afghanistan, or when the Taliban drove them out, or when we drove the Taliban out? When the French got thown out of IndoChina, or when we got thrown out of Viet Nam? How about when the South was defeated by the North in the Civil War?

If, on the other hand, if we don't get conquered or cease to exist in "the next few years" (you define that for me, eh?) does that prove, or disprove, anything? I'd be willing to lay a small bill on that, if you can define for me what, exactly, you mean.

As for "checking the Bible for accuracy", you seem to be waffling. What is this jeopardy thing? Either we're guilty as sin, or we're not. Jeopardy invites equivocation. Of course, I have no more proof than you do, which is to say, none, so all I can say is, define your meaning and let's wager on it. Do you think doing that will tip the balance, tempting god as we do? If so, you're welcome to it, and I'll gracefully cede to you the bet as we go our respective ways.

[shadron]

Well to me one little word sums it up pretty good, SIN! We are born into a fallen world and the evidence is everywhere. And what about the question of why people die?

They die because their telemeres get too short. They die because of functional failure of one or more organs in the body. They die because their immune system is challenged one too many times, or because it turns rogue. They die because of knife strokes, flying bullets and slips on banana peels. They die because cancer cells have the ability to invoke capillary growth within the tumors. They die because prions, viruses and bacteria run amok, not to speak of worms, malaria and other parasites, and/or the occasional freak blood clot. They die for lack of water, food, vitamins A, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, D and/or E, as well as an assortment of minerals, or from a surfeit of almost anything. They die because our genetic material has only the will to reproduce itself on this mortal coil, not necessarily to allow them to see their great-grandchildren. They die from arrows in their heels, or from missions accomplished.

Does not God's explanation in scripture pretty well sum it up??The one darned thing that probably doesn't kill them is the KJV word of god. That only has the power to depress old ones and scare young ones.

Look at yourself, Kathy. You are obviously living the literal word of god as you see it right up to the hilt. If I were the type, I'd classify you as a saint for your tenacious preaching, if nothing else. Many saints died for less. You are practically assured of everlasting life. Are you happy? It sure doesn't sound like it to me.

[zaphod2016]

This hits close to home. I feel the need to speak up.

When I was 16, I left home to make my own way in life. For years I didn't talk to my parents (who were divorced when I was very young). By 18, I "gave up" on my family entirely, and created a substitute family with friends who were more in-tune with my worldview.

I'd like to tell you that I stood strong, and never talked to them again. But I did- I talked to them all the time, even though they were 100's of miles away and couldn't hear me. After years of separation my mind invented better and better reasons to avoid them. The absence allowed me to create monsters out of these people.

But eventually, as I got engaged and prepared to start a "real family" of my own, I felt a strong desire to reconnect. And last summer I spent a week with my dad's family, for the first time in a decade. And you know what- it was a lot of fun.

Here's the key: there are some things you are good at, and there are some things you suck at. Some things you are embarrassingly bad at. For example, I myself suck at basketball, even though I love the game. So- if you demand that I serve as a professional basketball player, I am going to disappoint you. Even though I sincerely want to do this, it is simply not meant to be.

Ditto family. Embrace their strengths, and accept the things they suck at. You now know, beyond any reasonable doubt, that these people suck at making rational political choices. Sadly, this is not likely to change, nor is it your place or duty to change this. You must accept it. There is no alternative.

You cannot control what they do, however, you CAN control what YOU do. And you can decide to not discuss politics or religion with these people. You can say, firmly but politely, "I do not want to talk about this anymore".

Or- you can choose to engage this debate again and again and again- and in doing so, allow yourself to be disappointed every time.

A final analogy: I love my dog. I talk to her all the time. I tell her things I have never told anyone else. But- she has never spoken back to me. I accept her as a good listener, even though it is all noise to her. If I were to demand she reply, or actually understand the things I say, I would only be causing unnecessary disappointment for myself.

So the next time your family are chanting insanity at one another, just picture a puppy, crapping on the rug. Sure, it's annoying- but the reality is, they just don't know any better. But you do. And that's why you have to be the bigger man.

My 2 cents. Good luck to you.

[Lonewulf]

The one darned thing that probably doesn't kill them is the KJV word of god. That only has the power to depress old ones and scare young ones.

Look at yourself, Kathy. You are obviously living the literal word of god as you see it right up to the hilt. If I were the type, I'd classify you as a saint for your tenacious preaching, if nothing else. Many saints died for less. You are practically assured of everlasting life. Are you happy? It sure doesn't sound like it to me.
Word.

Kurious Kathy, I must say, I pity people like you just for this reason.

You're so busy trying to force your ideas on other people, and you will never get anywhere. You blame wildfires on homosexuals, so you want to limit their freedoms. When you remove their freedom and the wildfires don't go away (because they have actual scientific reasons for existing, not divine, namely, stuff catches fire and things are dry down there), you'll then turn on someone else. You're so busy trying to hurt other people to find solutions to problems, you don't even think of looking for the actual, logical solutions to the problems.

And it's sad. Because you want to hurt other people, and you'll never be happy, never be satisfied with life.

[wolfgirl]

what about the question of why people die? Does not God's explanation in scripture pretty well sum it up??Everything dies, kathy. Are you saying that pigs and kittens and trees and bacterium and earthworms and eels all die because of sin?

[Beanbag]

"Just because you swallowed that religious codswallop that there's something fundamentally wrong with mankind doesn't mean everybody believes that lie."

Methinks you'll be hard pressed to prove that one. There is plenty of evidence to support things being fundamentally wrong with humanity.
Well, that would make me suspect you'd find questions with the concept of "intelligent' design, then.

When you scratch your way through the human brain and get down to the lizard-brain that forms the foundation, you discover the underlying software follows this basic rule:

"You look different from us; therefore we may exploit and kill you, and/or use you as food."

Welcome to the Primordial Pool. It's fun down here in the ooze. When you finally realize what's at the foundation of brute existence, then you come to appreciate how truly beautiful the people are who have managed to overcome it to treat all people decently. Maybe one of these days I'll reach that goal.

Beanbag

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Well the fear mongering has started...with less than a single percent of the vote in my family is already crying end of the world...

[Safe-Keeper]

Well the fear mongering has started...with less than a single percent of the vote in my family is already crying end of the world...What precautions are they taking? Are they stocking up on food and other vital supplies? Are they loading their guns? Locking doors? Barb-wiring their yard? Boarding their doors? Making sure their kids know how to properly put on gas masks and that they have their anti-poison pills within reach at all times in case they inhale some biological or chemical weapon without their masks on? Is the car fueled and loaded with additional supplies so that an evacuation can be carried out at a minute's notice? Have they got an out-of-state "family contact", as prescribed by the American Red Cross' disaster preparation sheet (http://www.redcross.org/services/disaster/0,1082,0_601_,00.html)?

...no?

'Cause, you know, this is how people who actually expect war, genocide or anarchy prepare. Head down to a country with an inadequate police force and more than prevalent gangs, and you'll find residents who have iron gates both outside and inside their houses to keep people out - people with machine guns that kick down doors and loot houses. Before going to sleep in the second floor, you make sure the iron gate to the stairs is locked - if the gangs attack your house, they'll hopefully just rob the first floor and move on.

But an Obama? No, that's the exception. Obamas kill whites, particularly Christians, and especially little girls horribly, but there's no need to prepare because, er... shaddup and do your homework.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

What precautions are they taking? Are they stocking up on food and other vital supplies? Are they loading their guns? Locking doors? Barb-wiring their yard? Boarding their doors? Making sure their kids know how to properly put on gas masks and that they have their anti-poison pills within reach at all times in case they inhale some biological or chemical weapon without their masks on? Is the car fueled and loaded with additional supplies so that an evacuation can be carried out at a minute's notice? Have they got an out-of-state "family contact", as prescribed by the American Red Cross' disaster preparation sheet (http://www.redcross.org/services/disaster/0,1082,0_601_,00.html)?

...no?

'Cause, you know, this is how people who actually expect war, genocide or anarchy prepare. Head down to a country with an inadequate police force and more than prevalent gangs, and you'll find residents who have iron gates both outside and inside their houses to keep people out - people with machine guns that kick down doors and loot houses. Before going to sleep in the second floor, you make sure the iron gate to the stairs is locked - if the gangs attack your house, they'll hopefully just rob the first floor and move on.

But an Obama? No, that's the exception. Obamas kill whites, particularly Christians, and especially little girls horribly, but there's no need to prepare because, er... shaddup and do your homework.

Hey I never said their beliefs were rational. My mom actually started to cry the moment I told her that Obama took Ohio.

I'm more worried about how my sisters are taking it. They've lost friends over this election. Today at school my little sister and a few of her friends were angry about how Obama won the mock-election they did for the school and they stood up during an assembly and started chanting "No more anti-Christ wins"

[Safe-Keeper]

Hey I never said their beliefs were rational.I know, I know. I meant it as an attack on them, not you:).

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm more worried about how my sisters are taking it. They've lost friends over this election. Today at school my little sister and a few of her friends were angry about how Obama won the mock-election they did for the school and they stood up during an assembly and started chanting "No more anti-Christ wins"11 and 8, eh?

:(

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I know, I know. I meant it as an attack on them, not you:).

Well; thank you for only attacking my family and not me. :p


11 and 8, eh?

:(

I know, it has me deeply concerned. So does some of her friends who are equally brain-washed.

[Safe-Keeper]

Well - Obama won. I have a feeling the genocide of Christians hasn't arrived yet?

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Well - Obama won. I have a feeling the genocide of Christians hasn't arrived yet?

Not yet but they're waiting for it.

[Vic Vega]

After the end doesn't come you will have a chance to talk to your sisters. Tell them that all of the prophets of doom were wrong. Then ask them to consider what else they might be wrong about.

Maybe a lightbulb will go on, maybe it won't. At least you will have tried.

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm seriously wondering if you should just call CPS on them.

[MattusMaximus]

To address the OP, it's clear to me we haven't had enough human sacrifice lately. ;)

[wolfgirl]

I'm more worried about how my sisters are taking it. Do they trust you, look up to you? If so, can you talk to them, rationally, just saying that not everything that your mom tells them is true, that sometimes she can be wrong about something? Not undermining her authority, but just that she's human and can make mistakes. Explain to them how most people believe Obama is a good man and will keep us safe.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

To address the OP, it's clear to me we haven't had enough human sacrifice lately. ;)

Considering that you may be ignorant of the fact that you're joking about sacrificing my family...I'm going to ignore this remark.

Do they trust you, look up to you? If so, can you talk to them, rationally, just saying that not everything that your mom tells them is true, that sometimes she can be wrong about something? Not undermining her authority, but just that she's human and can make mistakes. Explain to them how most people believe Obama is a good man and will keep us safe.

My sisters, especially the older one, absolutely hate my guts. Certain members of my family have a done a great job of painting me as an ignorant moron and a godless blasphemer. For example; the other day the older one informed me of her protest at a school assembly in which the students elected the President-Elect and she and her friends stood up and started chanting "No more anti-Christ wins". When she told me about this, rather proud of herself, I informed her of a verse in the bible which seemed to state that Obama isn't the anti-Christ because he is married with two little girls. She responded by essentially calling me a liar and telling me I can't tell her about the bible because I "believe in evolution and the big bang and I don't know what its like to believe in God". And when I attempted to protest such sentiments she screamed "I believe in the bible not you" and then informed me that she wouldn't care if I died.

Essentially nothing I say will really make a difference. I have some hopes for the younger one who reminds me so much of myself. Hence the reason why I'm still sticking around, because I have a feeling in middle school she's going to start going through some very tough times about her religion.

[Lonewulf]

Considering that you may be ignorant of the fact that you're joking about sacrificing my family...I'm going to ignore this remark.I'm pretty sure the Old Ones would approve. Or most likely, simply not care.

My sisters, especially the older one, absolutely hate my guts. Certain members of my family have a done a great job of painting me as an ignorant moron and a godless blasphemer.*Resists a "contradiction" joke there.*

For example; the other day the older one informed me of her protest at a school assembly in which the students elected the President-Elect and she and her friends stood up and started chanting "No more anti-Christ wins". When she told me about this, rather proud of herself, I informed her of a verse in the bible which seemed to state that Obama isn't the anti-Christ because he is married with two little girls. She responded by essentially calling me a liar and telling me I can't tell her about the bible because I "believe in evolution and the big bang and I don't know what its like to believe in God".As opposed to asking for a passage from the bible where you got the information. Nice.

And when I attempted to protest such sentiments she screamed "I believe in the bible not you" and then informed me that she wouldn't care if I died.Ah, not caring that your siblings die. How very... CHRISTIAN... of her.

Wait, no. Wasn't Christ a bit different than that? Hm, I wouldn't know; I believe too much in evolution to know what the Bible says Christ said! D:

Essentially nothing I say will really make a difference. I have some hopes for the younger one who reminds me so much of myself. Hence the reason why I'm still sticking around, because I have a feeling in middle school she's going to start going through some very tough times about her religion.
NOTE: Lonewulf's advice is made as an only child, no experience with siblings, and with little knowledge of your own relationship with your younger sister. Keep this in mind when reading the following.

Best thing I can suggest is to tell her to actually read the bible. As much of it as she can.

Talking to her about how evil Christianity is will probably set you apart from her as "The Other". Encourage her to ask questions when she can, though.

Alternatively, engage with her in other things as well, but encourage her to ask questions and learn.

That's the best advice I could give anyone.

[angelsaramark]

Considering that you may be ignorant of the fact that you're joking about sacrificing my family...I'm going to ignore this remark.



My sisters, especially the older one, absolutely hate my guts. Certain members of my family have a done a great job of painting me as an ignorant moron and a godless blasphemer. For example; the other day the older one informed me of her protest at a school assembly in which the students elected the President-Elect and she and her friends stood up and started chanting "No more anti-Christ wins". When she told me about this, rather proud of herself, I informed her of a verse in the bible which seemed to state that Obama isn't the anti-Christ because he is married with two little girls. She responded by essentially calling me a liar and telling me I can't tell her about the bible because I "believe in evolution and the big bang and I don't know what its like to believe in God". And when I attempted to protest such sentiments she screamed "I believe in the bible not you" and then informed me that she wouldn't care if I died.

Essentially nothing I say will really make a difference. I have some hopes for the younger one who reminds me so much of myself. Hence the reason why I'm still sticking around, because I have a feeling in middle school she's going to start going through some very tough times about her religion.


I would suggest that you look hard at subjects and not just believe. It seems this forum is largely religionists vs atheists with their individual creeds and fighting points. Frankly, the arguments on here are largely made by people on both sides claiming to be authorities who don't even understand the very basics of what they are talking about. I have been tested with an IQ of 147 (Minimal compared to all the wiseacres on here). So what? It's just a damn test score and it proves that I can do well on a standardized test. I may not be able to wipe my ass, but I can outscore 99% of the people on a test. Man, do I feel great (not really). The Big Bang gets promoted as if it's fact, when the fact is that there are many reputable AUTHORITIES that dispute it:

John L. West, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of
Technology (USA)

James F. Woodward, California State University, Fullerton (USA)

Halton Arp, Max-Planck-Institute Fur Astrophysik (Germany)

Andre Koch Torres Assis, State University of Campinas (Brazil)

Yuri Baryshev, Astronomical Institute, St. Petersburg State University
(Russia)

Ari Brynjolfsson, Applied Radiation Industries (USA)

Hermann Bondi, Churchill College, University of Cambridge (UK)

Timothy Eastman, Plasmas International (USA)

Chuck Gallo, Superconix, Inc.(USA)

Thomas Gold, Cornell University (emeritus) (USA)

Someone will reply and say that you can find support from reputable sources for anything and that is largely true. The bottom line is that no one has all truth and one needs to fully understand the issues/arguments before making a decision with the realization that a Galileo with the lone dissenting vote may be right. So, if you understand the Big Bang (which will take some work - remember the term "red shift") and still believe it, fine, but for you to just believe it is not different that your family just believing.

[godless dave]

Coveting things is not evil (but is a Christain sin).

Coveting things can certainly need the coveter to do harm to himself or others.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

stuff

I have no idea what you're on about but I have a feeling that 90% of it was an attempt to say I rely on blind faith as much as my family because of my attitude towards the big bang?

[godless dave]

Well - Obama won. I have a feeling the genocide of Christians hasn't arrived yet?

Of course not. If the forces of the anti-Christ killed all the Christians now, they'd all go to heaven. First he's going to try to turn them away from god by pressuring them to engage in homosexuality, convert to Wicca, and have abortions. Plus he doesn't get sworn in until January 20.

[Greg44]

REgarding the OP I would suggest first and foremost putting some distance between your self and these people, not geographical distance necessarily but some kind of space. You seem as though you have done this to some degree already. Threats of physical violence are a definite "deal breaker" as Dr Phil might say, but still you must guage how seriously to take such things. As far as changing their minds goes I don't see it happening by using christian principles to highlight the error of their interpretation of the scriptures.

IF people were worried about Obama giving blacks a free ride, or making reparations for slavery mandatory, I would remind them that the President can't really do anything without the support of his party, and legislation must pass through the congress? Senate? (excuse my ignorance on the workings of US govt.). Surely the Senators and Congressman would be able to stop the anti-christ even if he/she did manage to get elected?

[godless dave]

IF people were worried about Obama giving blacks a free ride, or making reparations for slavery mandatory, I would remind them that the President can't really do anything without the support of his party, and legislation must pass through the congress? Senate? (excuse my ignorance on the workings of US govt.).

Both the House of Representatives and Senate. Congress is comprised of both houses, but many Americans use "congressman" to mean "representative".



Surely the Senators and Congressman would be able to stop the anti-christ even if he/she did manage to get elected?


Not if they're in league with the forces of darkness themselves. The Democrats have a majority in both houses, and it's well known that Democrats are anti-god socialists who want to negotiate with terrorists.











(that last sentence is sarcasm)

[Ladewig]

Coveting things can certainly lead (?) the coveter to do harm to himself or others.

And coveting things can also lead to hard work and determination. The act of coveting is not evil in any rational sense of the word.

[Safe-Keeper]

I reacted the exact same way when I saw the Fox headline. Uncontrollable sobbing. I ran to the toilet dry heaving. Then I prayed for us to go home. My husband is not yet saved. We need to pray!Is it just his skin colour, or is it something more? I mean, all this bullocks has to come out of... somewhere.

[kurious_kathy]

You see all sins as evil. As I said earlier, evil is best defined as actions that harm unwilling participants. Thus murder is evil (and is a Christian sin). Slavery is also evil (but is not a Christian sin). Coveting things is not evil (but is a Christain sin). I'll agree that many Christians define homosexuality as a sin, but I see no reason to consider it evil.

I do hope you'll see that calling homosexuality evil is the type of bigotry that prevents the US from making progress in the 21st century.
No Ladewig I turned from my sin when Jesus showed me it, and sexual sins are the absolute worse as it is said in scripture to be a sin against our own bodies. All sin is falling short of the mark, we were made to have a relationship with God, and to give God glory! Unfortunately many are still seperated from God because they do not accept the Messiah. Jesus is the only way back to the Father.

And God made one man and one woman, and it is ultimately God who ordained marriage and told us what marriage and sex is to be, one man and one woman. I can never say sexual sin is okay and I myself was gulity of some of those past sexual sins myself. Most of us have had sex outside of marriage and God still calls it's fornication or we leave one spouse for another and it is still called adultery. I myself left & tried to divorce my husband and get remarried to another man until God convicted me of my sin and showed me it was adultery in his eyes then I repented and was reconciled with my husband. Do you think it's easy for me to admit this? It is absolutely not and I still suffer some consequences from the emotional damage I did to myself and others, but God has faithfully forgiven me and is restoring me each day as I learn to follow him. The straight and narrow road is not an easy road to follow, but I am on it now and won't make excuses for a life of sin I once led, it it was not God's best for me and it's not what's best for any of us. Jesus forgives our sin, but he does not say it's okay to do abuse grace, or not repent and keep living a life of sin.

[Hokulele]

Odd, I would have thought murder is worse than "sexual sins". *Shrug*

[Mashuna]

Odd, I would have thought murder is worse than "sexual sins". *Shrug*

You're just showing your scriptual ignorance aga. . .

Wait, I'm getting Kathy mixed up with Radrook, aren't I.

[Ladewig]

No Ladewig I turned from my sin when Jesus showed me it, and sexual sins are the absolute worse as it is said in scripture to be a sin against our own bodies. All sin is falling short of the mark, we were made to have a relationship with God, and to give God glory! Unfortunately many are still seperated from God because they do not accept the Messiah. Jesus is the only way back to the Father.

And God made one man and one woman, and it is ultimately God who ordained marriage and told us what marriage and sex is to be, one man and one woman. I can never say sexual sin is okay and I myself was gulity of some of those past sexual sins myself. Most of us have had sex outside of marriage and God still calls it's fornication or we leave one spouse for another and it is still called adultery. I myself left & tried to divorce my husband and get remarried to another man until God convicted me of my sin and showed me it was adultery in his eyes then I repented and was reconciled with my husband. Do you think it's easy for me to admit this? It is absolutely not and I still suffer some consequences from the emotional damage I did to myself and others, but God has faithfully forgiven me and is restoring me each day as I learn to follow him. The straight and narrow road is not an easy road to follow, but I am on it now and won't make excuses for a life of sin I once led, it it was not God's best for me and it's not what's best for any of us. Jesus forgives our sin, but he does not say it's okay to do abuse grace, or not repent and keep living a life of sin.

My post was only six lines long and yet you completely misunderstood it. I never said that homosexuality was not a sin. I said it was silly to call it evil because evilness has to do with harming innocent and unwilling participants. No one is harmed by two people of the same sex engaging in sexual congress. It is neither evil nor harmful. I will agree with you that adultery is harmful because it hurts the the other spouse.

Here's some free advice - read your Bible. If you do you will see that there is an unforgivable sin and it is not sexual in nature.

Lastly, let me say: Obama is not the antichrist. Or more precisely, the amount of evidence that Mr. Obama is the antichrist is no greater than the amount of evidence that John McCain, G.W. Bush, or Billy Graham is the antichrist.

[Elizabeth I]

I wonder how Adam and Eve's children got forgiveness for the sin of incest? Because obviously there was no one else to have sex with, at least if the Bible is literally true.

[Safe-Keeper]

And God made one man and one woman, and it is ultimately God who ordained marriage and told us what marriage and sex is to be, one man and one woman.Please state book, chapter and verse for the claim that marriage was invented by God himself.

[bokonon]

I would just suggest we all get on our knees with God to save us.The scriptures are clear that in the last days many mockers would come and evil would grow. Soon they will forbid people to get married and that's totally evil. God ordained marriage,one man, one woman. I say we keep it right with him.
Hmmmm.

1 Kings 11:3 - "And [Solomon] had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines..."

God didn't seem to have a problem with this per se. 1 Kings 11:33 says he was upset "Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon" unlike David who did "that which is right in mine eyes". And 2 Samuel 12:7-8 says "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee (David) king over Israel, ... And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom". So God apparently not only approves of polygamy, but is a bit of a heavenly matchmaker and arranges the delivery of these multiple wives himself.

Where, exactly, does he ordain the "one man one woman" thing?

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.
Hey Kathy, your prayer was answered, so why is that vindictive little arsonist you worship still torching the southland?

I thought maybe, you know, Santa Barbara county voted down Prop 8, so that's why they were flamed, though the burning of Westmont Christian College had me confused a bit. But now your petty firebug is burning Sylmar, and threatening a hospital, and Sylmar helped to pass Prop 8.

So I'm confused...

[Safe-Keeper]

I thought maybe, you know, Santa Barbara county voted down Prop 8, so that's why they were flamed, though the burning of Westmont Christian College had me confused a bit. But now your petty firebug is burning Sylmar, and threatening a hospital, and Sylmar helped to pass Prop 8. Pre-emptive answer: Oh, that's not Yahweh. That is a natural wildfire.

You know, it reminds me of this Nemi comic in which she tells Cyan that she's not going to feel bad about her mistakes and faults throughout life because they helped her get to the happy life she is living today, and that fate isn't something you can challenge in the first place. Cyan asks her about various Nemi-style mishaps (most involving drunkenness, childishness and recklessness, I seem to recall), and Nemi confirms they were all events of 'fate' or 'destiny'. Cyan asks her if fate is also responsible for the good things she's done, to which she answers, 'no, that was me':).

God ordained marriage,one man, one woman.Even if this was somehow true, it'd say more about God than about us. God also said that you should get killed for working on the Sabbath, and that eating shellfish or petting pigs was a no-no.

[Delvo]

I wonder how Adam and Eve's children got forgiveness for the sin of incest? Because obviously there was no one else to have sex with, at least if the Bible is literally true.No, the Bible doesn't literally say they did that.

[Elizabeth I]

No, the Bible doesn't literally say they did that.

The Bible, which to literalists is the definitive history of the beginning of the world, gives us no source from which Adam and Eve's children could have found spouses outside their own family.

Wouldn't you think that if God created more than one family line, that might have been an important point to include?