How did things get this bad?

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I’m not sure if this is appropriate for the religion and philosophy forum. So if it doesn’t I apologize in advance.

Now, I won’t bother any of you by getting into the specifics of the ranting and raving, all from family members staying in MY home, I listened to last night. But I think I’ll simply deliver a few of the more important details of the utter insanity I listened to last night.

-- Barack Obama is the anti-Christ/a Muslim/a Muslim terrorist/a racist/going to kill us all/only cares about you if you have nine babies and is going to make us all bankrupt and give our money to people with nine babies (no joke).
-- My 16 year old cousin thinks it’s a good idea to crucify Obama, Biden, Michelle Obama, and myself and my father for daring to vote for Barack Obama.
-- The $700 billion bail-out is a liberal conspiracy led by Barack Obama. Seeing as how he is the anti-Christ, he needs control of the banks first so he can take control of the entire world.
-- His middle-name is Hussein, proving he’s a terrorist.
-- My two very young sisters (11 and 8) have been convinced by members of my family that if Barack Obama is elected president they are going to die.
-- Barack Obama is a typical “n*****”
-- The Democrats, and the Democrats alone, are responsible for the economic crisis in a ploy to get Obama elected president.
-- Abortions are sacrifices to Obama (no joke).
-- Barack Obama is black and therefore unqualified to hold any political office.
-- Barack Obama being the anti-Christ is biblical, but don’t ask for the specific scripture it just is.

Now, I’ve known most of my family drank the kool-aid of the very far right a very long time ago. And as most of you may have guessed I’m most angry with my cousin who stated, in all seriousness, that he would like to have me and my father crucified for voting for Obama. I was also deeply angered when my uncle, who has physically assaulted my when I was still a minor, threatened me with violence when I disagreed with him. And of course, I’m also very upset that they have my two very young sisters whipped up into a state of total panic. Especially since they’re all in a state of grieving now having come to the conclusion that McCain will lose the election and thus essentially telling my two sisters they WILL die. It was just after my uncle threatened me that I threatened to call the police if they didn’t leave my house. As they left I also informed most of them that they are no longer welcome in my home.

I’m telling you all this because I want to ask a question and I think it’s necessary to highlight just how much this has affected me. I believe this election has gotten drastically out of hand and in the next few weeks I fear it’s only going to get worse. I especially fear the frenzy some of the people who are as bad as certain members of family may be whipped into assuming Obama will win the presidency.

How exactly did things get this bad? Now I’m very young, 20, so I have no idea if things have always been this bad. Why is it that certain people are incapable of having a civil discussion about politics and the presidential campaign? I don’t expect to change any minds either, the people I’m talking about have huge emotional investment in the election and in the case of my two young sisters who, assuming Obama wins this election, will spend the next 4-8 years fearing that their president intends to cause them physical harm. I hate to say it but my sisters have been indoctrinated rather well, and nothing will convince them otherwise; especially since it’s our mother telling them these things.

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.

[Scazon]

It was very uncivil of them to call Obama a typical "nitwit". But it all reminds me of my Uncle Joe and his family back in the 60s, when I had a major bustup with them at a family party over Enoch Powell's view of "coloured" immigrants to Britain. It was one of the first times I understood that Christians didn't take their own teachings on charity very seriously, and in the longer term he did me a favour by opening my eyes to the possibility that the Church didn't always mean what it says. The old sod's dead now, so it will have been a shock to him when he got sent to hell for racism :) And the cousin went to South Africa, enjoyed the life of Larry under apartheid, and bailed out in panic at liberation. He sold up cheap and came home poor and unemployed in the middle of a recession. See the workings of God's justice!

Forget DNA as a definer of "family", it's friends that you choose that you build your life around. If you're stuck in some out-of-the-way town where everyone is related, bale out as soon as you can.

[fagin]

Racism?

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Racism?

Lots of that yes, but also the ever-present tingle of religious bigotry brought on from the possibility that he may be Muslim.

[fagin]

Reminds me of a line in a poem in my high school yearbook (just about the only thing I still remember)
'Blood may be thicker than water, but thank god I can choose my own friends'

[CurtC]

-- Barack Obama is a typical “n*****”

So which is it, he's your typical "nitwit," or he's the Anti-Christ? Those two seem to be opposing views.

I really don't know what to say - I have never run across any of the craziness like you're describing, so it's all alien to me. This election doesn't seem any more nasty or out of hand than any previous ones I recall (I don't have too much recollection of presidential elections before 1972, because in 1968 I was too young to pay attention to politics). Other than the pretty significant milestone of a person of mixed race (including African) being at the head of a major party ticket, this election seems pretty normal to me.

I'm sorry you're in this situation, but it does seem like it would be entertaining just to see how crazy their statements could get. You know - treat it as fun, goad them into saying the wildest things, maybe take notes of the good ones. But the bit about your sisters is more serious.

[Vic Vega]

Sounds like you need to find a new family...

[Henners]

Fox News?

[Ichneumonwasp]

Things have always been this bad, especially in the run-ups to elections. A favorite used to be to accuse your opponent of frequenting prostitutes and of having syphilis.

I can't recall the name of it, but there is a book that documents many previous elections (some presidential and some not) and the tricks used in them. One I recall included a candidate who successfully accused his opponent of being a "practicing homo sapiens" to the disgust of the crowd.

This type of acrimony goes all the way back to the fights between the Federalists and Democratic Republicans. The Federalists even used the sedition act to convict some of the Democratic Rebublicans -- one was even sentenced to death by hanging for treason (but Adams was losing to Jefferson so he commuted the sentence, so as not to look bad as the election approached).

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

So which is it, he's your typical "nitwit," or he's the Anti-Christ? Those two seem to be opposing views.

My mother is under the impression that each new Democratic nominee for the presidency is the anti-Christ. Gore and Kerry certainly were in her opinion.

I'm sorry you're in this situation, but it does seem like it would be entertaining just to see how crazy their statements could get.

Their statements can get down-right insane. The other day I decided I had enough of the anti-Christ comments and asserted that John McCain was, in fact, the anti-Christ. Now obviously I don't believe that; I "came out of the science lab" years back. But their reaction was priceless to say the least. My mom responded as expected and simply got angry and attempted to shout me down. Everyone else appeared dumbstruck, they looked at each other in awe for a few moments before one of them actually spoke...and what he said I am not kidding you is an exact quote; "but he's a war hero". That takes the cake. Well, nearly. My dad still believes Obama could be the anti-Christ, just that he'll vote for him becuase he can't prove it. He's told me that if Obama is the anti-Christ he, and I'm not kidding, believes Oprah is the false prophet. I laughed but he actually attempted to reason with me by pointing to "signs", which included things like her influence and her little course on spirituality that he believes is a ploy to lead people to hell. He also buys into the micro-chip thing (name is on the tip of my tongue) as being the sign of beast, bankers are trying to take control of the world but don't realize they're doing it for the anti-Christ, and the Knights Templar could run the world already. So needless to say when my dad says something CTish I tend to flip off the switch to my ears.

But the bit about your sisters is more serious.

I'm deeply concerned with how they're being raised. I'm also worried about my younger sister who is alot like me in so many ways. It leads me to believe she's going to question her faith and face years of guilt and fear while she hammers out the details just like I did. My mother's constant certainty that the end is nigh and we need repent never helped, well constantly telling me that I'm going to hell when I die before she knew I was an atheist never helped either. She was never so forward, she'd simply say "I don't know your heart" which if you've ever lived with fundies is code for "I don't believe you're Christian". She would also say that she needed to leave information on her bank account where me and my brother could get when the rapture did happen and left us behind. If you knew her like I did that statement would appear much more condescending than I can make it here. But like I said, the older one is a lot like my brother which means she’ll never think about anything critically. But the younger one is more like me, so I fear she’s going to go through hell in that house coming to terms with her faith or lack-thereof. The whole thing really worries me sometimes.

[I Ratant]

Most of my retired compatriots could really go off on a rag on Obama.. and I get daily e-mails from them that do.
But not as extreme as the OP.
I think a McCain-Biden ticket would be OK.. tossing out the two losers cluttering up the landscape.

[Darth Rotor]

How did things get this bad?
Entropy.

[CurtC]

She would also say that she needed to leave information on her bank account where me and my brother could get when the rapture did happen and left us behind.

My favorite bumper sticker:


IN CASE OF RAPTURE
Can I have your car?

I think it would be a good idea to stay in contact with your family, for your sisters' benefit. Plus, you could regale us with the stories!

[Autolite]

Sounds like a nasty situation. I can relate to it as I myself had to alienate my entire family many years ago. It was a hard decision but they were becoming a destructive force in my life and cutting them all loose was just a survival measure. We tend to be more tolerant of family just because they are family. It's just human nature. The bottom line is that we can choose our friends but we can't choose our family. If "divorcing" your family is what you need to do then you shouldn't feel ashamed...

[Mister Agenda]

My dad told my sister and her husband they could have his furniture when the rapture comes. They're Presbyterian, you see.

[uruk]

How did things get this bad? Easy. Two parts ignorance mixed with one part religeous fanaticisim.

Nobody wants to think. Thinking is too "hard" and the truth is often "depressing".
It's better to let someone do the thinking for you from the pulpit and fill your head with a soothing fantasy and manufactured boogymen to keep you in line.

This goes on all over the world. The U.S. is not immune.

[SusanB-M1]

OP - A worrying, very wearing situation which could really get you down, but I'd go with autolite's views in #14.

[fuelair]

I’m not sure if this is appropriate for the religion and philosophy forum. So if it doesn’t I apologize in advance.

Now, I won’t bother any of you by getting into the specifics of the ranting and raving, all from family members staying in MY home, I listened to last night. But I think I’ll simply deliver a few of the more important details of the utter insanity I listened to last night.

-- Barack Obama is the anti-Christ/a Muslim/a Muslim terrorist/a racist/going to kill us all/only cares about you if you have nine babies and is going to make us all bankrupt and give our money to people with nine babies (no joke).
-- My 16 year old cousin thinks it’s a good idea to crucify Obama, Biden, Michelle Obama, and myself and my father for daring to vote for Barack Obama.
-- The $700 billion bail-out is a liberal conspiracy led by Barack Obama. Seeing as how he is the anti-Christ, he needs control of the banks first so he can take control of the entire world.
-- His middle-name is Hussein, proving he’s a terrorist.
-- My two very young sisters (11 and 8) have been convinced by members of my family that if Barack Obama is elected president they are going to die.
-- Barack Obama is a typical “n*****”
-- The Democrats, and the Democrats alone, are responsible for the economic crisis in a ploy to get Obama elected president.
-- Abortions are sacrifices to Obama (no joke).
-- Barack Obama is black and therefore unqualified to hold any political office.
-- Barack Obama being the anti-Christ is biblical, but don’t ask for the specific scripture it just is.

Now, I’ve known most of my family drank the kool-aid of the very far right a very long time ago. And as most of you may have guessed I’m most angry with my cousin who stated, in all seriousness, that he would like to have me and my father crucified for voting for Obama. I was also deeply angered when my uncle, who has physically assaulted my when I was still a minor, threatened me with violence when I disagreed with him. And of course, I’m also very upset that they have my two very young sisters whipped up into a state of total panic. Especially since they’re all in a state of grieving now having come to the conclusion that McCain will lose the election and thus essentially telling my two sisters they WILL die. It was just after my uncle threatened me that I threatened to call the police if they didn’t leave my house. As they left I also informed most of them that they are no longer welcome in my home.

I’m telling you all this because I want to ask a question and I think it’s necessary to highlight just how much this has affected me. I believe this election has gotten drastically out of hand and in the next few weeks I fear it’s only going to get worse. I especially fear the frenzy some of the people who are as bad as certain members of family may be whipped into assuming Obama will win the presidency.

How exactly did things get this bad? Now I’m very young, 20, so I have no idea if things have always been this bad. Why is it that certain people are incapable of having a civil discussion about politics and the presidential campaign? I don’t expect to change any minds either, the people I’m talking about have huge emotional investment in the election and in the case of my two young sisters who, assuming Obama wins this election, will spend the next 4-8 years fearing that their president intends to cause them physical harm. I hate to say it but my sisters have been indoctrinated rather well, and nothing will convince them otherwise; especially since it’s our mother telling them these things.

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.
Two reasons : 1)eight years of Bush AND the republicker congress even before that (under Newt Gingrich) 2) the religious right operating with the republickers. They have tried to destroy the real culture of the US to return us to a time that never really exisited except in their minds - a time of two parent white families who went to church and had no problems except occasional illness, schools full of beaming happy well behaved white kids who loved to watch Code approved happy family films or listen to wholesome family entertainment on the radio all together. (More details available, but it's all as fake and unreal as the creature they worship and the characters they elect - or try too.).:)

[Safe-Keeper]

Why so many seem to hate Obama with a record passion... from my layman's point of view, I think it has to do with one part racism and one part 9/11. I suppose having an Arabic leader during our 'war on terror' with countries that happen to be Middle Eastern (the facts that Iraqis aren't Arabs and that Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 escapes the minds of most Christian nutters) is comparable in their eyes to having a German running for President in 1944 or a Russian in the Cold War. It's 'letting the fox inside the hen house' so so speak, essentially giving the nation to the enemy. Hence all the 'if he wins the election {horrific thing here} is going to happen' paranoia. That's my guess, at least.

Their double standards and ignorance is fairly stunning, though. Take the nutters who say he's a Muslim extremist and that he will legalize all abortion, disregarding that Islamic fundamentalists hate abortion with, if possible, an even greater passion than do Christian fundamentalists in the States. Or that he's a Muslim fundamentalist and thus worships Satan. I could go on and on.

Can't blame them for their paranoia, though. If I thought there was a Raptor was right around the corner, I'd be scared, too.

-- My two very young sisters (11 and 8) have been convinced by members of my family that if Barack Obama is elected president they are going to die.Disgusting. They'll hopefully come to their senses and become reasonable adults.

[wolfgirl]

First of all, I want to say congratulations to you for having emerged somehow from that family with your reason intact. That's a feat of which you should be immensely proud.

I saw a reporter on TV the other day who was saying that over the course of the past week or so, she's seen a dramatic change in the crowds at the McCain rallies. She said there are always a few crazy people at political rallies (I think she called them "wing-nuts"), but that it was disturbing to her that the recent rallies seem to be made up almost entirely of these types. Witness the shouts from the crowds that have been taped over the last several days at McCain or Palin speeches, shouts of "Terrorist," "Treason," "Traitor" and worse at the mere mention of Obama's name, and I think you can make an argument that things are taking a drastic turn for the worse. We all know someone who won't vote for Obama because his middle name is Hussein or because they "heard" he was a Muslim or whatever. Add in Palin's repeated attempts to tie him to "terrorists" and her being introduced for two different speeches by two different people who felt the need to use Obama's middle name in their opening statements, and I think we have the recipe for things to get really ugly really fast. I think it's even scaring McCain. Did you see the look on his face when someone shouted "Terrorist" at one of his talks? And now he's actually having to defend Obama to his own audiences (one woman insisted Obama was "an Arab").

In other words, your family is not alone in their insanity, but you just have to stay strong in the face of it.

[Safe-Keeper]

(one woman insisted Obama was "an Arab"). Indeed very confusing. If blacks are now Arabs, what are Arabs? Blacks? Something else? Or are blacks and Arabs now the same, but only if they're Muslims? In such a case, what about an Arab who's not a Muslim, is he black?

:headache:

[Blackadder]

kidnap your sisters, bomb your uncle and flee the country.

you can hide at my place. We have good education

[Tanstaafl]

I don't think it's always been this bad, but I think it has been before, probably many times. In '68 it was similar, people burning Nixon in effigy, others telling us to leave the country if we didn't support the war. I remember after the Kent State shootings, one of the parents of the dead was interviewed, and said that those kids deserved to die for being part of the anti-war rally. His own kid.

I think it was not nearly so bad for a while after that, but here we go again...

[Safe-Keeper]

kidnap your sistersThis idea has crossed my mind, too.

[Ladewig]

Tough call. There is nothing you can say to change his mind. On the other hand, you can show the weakness of his position by asking if he, like any God-fearing Christian, has donated all his money and all his time to McCain in an effort to prevent the anti-Christ from taking over America.

If I were in your position, the only other thing I would try is to let the sisters know that if they get into trouble and are afraid to ask their other relatives for help, they can turn to you.

I will agree that it seems worse now than in the past. Even though the past was pretty bad. E.g. people claiming that Kennedy (the first Catholic to run for president) would be a puppet of the Pope.

As for hoping that it gets better, remember that we are still within living memory of a time when washrooms, drinking fountains, and trains were racially segregated - so expecting pinheads to give up their racism here in the 21st century may be too much.

[Henners]

Can't blame them for their paranoia, though.

Why not? They are the citizens of a democracy. That makes them the people responsible - whether they are responsible people or not.

[kurious_kathy]

I’m not sure if this is appropriate for the religion and philosophy forum. So if it doesn’t I apologize in advance.

Now, I won’t bother any of you by getting into the specifics of the ranting and raving, all from family members staying in MY home, I listened to last night. But I think I’ll simply deliver a few of the more important details of the utter insanity I listened to last night.

-- Barack Obama is the anti-Christ/a Muslim/a Muslim terrorist/a racist/going to kill us all/only cares about you if you have nine babies and is going to make us all bankrupt and give our money to people with nine babies (no joke).
-- My 16 year old cousin thinks it’s a good idea to crucify Obama, Biden, Michelle Obama, and myself and my father for daring to vote for Barack Obama.
-- The $700 billion bail-out is a liberal conspiracy led by Barack Obama. Seeing as how he is the anti-Christ, he needs control of the banks first so he can take control of the entire world.
-- His middle-name is Hussein, proving he’s a terrorist.
-- My two very young sisters (11 and 8) have been convinced by members of my family that if Barack Obama is elected president they are going to die.
-- Barack Obama is a typical “n*****”
-- The Democrats, and the Democrats alone, are responsible for the economic crisis in a ploy to get Obama elected president.
-- Abortions are sacrifices to Obama (no joke).
-- Barack Obama is black and therefore unqualified to hold any political office.
-- Barack Obama being the anti-Christ is biblical, but don’t ask for the specific scripture it just is.

Now, I’ve known most of my family drank the kool-aid of the very far right a very long time ago. And as most of you may have guessed I’m most angry with my cousin who stated, in all seriousness, that he would like to have me and my father crucified for voting for Obama. I was also deeply angered when my uncle, who has physically assaulted my when I was still a minor, threatened me with violence when I disagreed with him. And of course, I’m also very upset that they have my two very young sisters whipped up into a state of total panic. Especially since they’re all in a state of grieving now having come to the conclusion that McCain will lose the election and thus essentially telling my two sisters they WILL die. It was just after my uncle threatened me that I threatened to call the police if they didn’t leave my house. As they left I also informed most of them that they are no longer welcome in my home.

I’m telling you all this because I want to ask a question and I think it’s necessary to highlight just how much this has affected me. I believe this election has gotten drastically out of hand and in the next few weeks I fear it’s only going to get worse. I especially fear the frenzy some of the people who are as bad as certain members of family may be whipped into assuming Obama will win the presidency.

How exactly did things get this bad? Now I’m very young, 20, so I have no idea if things have always been this bad. Why is it that certain people are incapable of having a civil discussion about politics and the presidential campaign? I don’t expect to change any minds either, the people I’m talking about have huge emotional investment in the election and in the case of my two young sisters who, assuming Obama wins this election, will spend the next 4-8 years fearing that their president intends to cause them physical harm. I hate to say it but my sisters have been indoctrinated rather well, and nothing will convince them otherwise; especially since it’s our mother telling them these things.

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.

I have said some of the same things about Obama so I'll apologize if I offend you in these beliefs. The fact is you need to realize people are like the company they keep and Obama's track record is HORRIBLE! I'm sorry but I do believe his cousin in Kenya and he are plotting something more than we could even conteplaint.

The problem is clearly EVIL! Men are evil full of sin because we are born with a fallen nature.The thing I have a hard time with is why people are so blinded by their sin. We have all been born into a fallen world and unless we accept Christ there is no hope. I see Obama as a son of perdition because of his backround and his connections.

I would just suggest we all get on our knees with God to save us.The scriptures are clear that in the last days many mockers would come and evil would grow. Soon they will forbid people to get married and that's totally evil. God ordained marriage,one man, one woman. I say we keep it right with him.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.

There is plenty of proof that God is and He does act against evil. He will have his time in everyones life dealing with sin. If he hasn't convicted each one of us of our sins then we have an even bigger problem because he has just left us. I know first hand about being chastised and I know it's because my Heavenly Father loves me. We either accept Jesus's authority or we rebel and deny the one truth that sets us sinners free.

As for Obama, he is a sinner like everyone else and as far as I can see he still needs a Savior, then I might trust him because he would be a spirit filled leader. As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?

God help us all see the truth that we have sinned against a Holy God and his Son is real and can set us sinners free. I myself like the reassurance of knowing when I meet my maker when he asks me why I think I deserve to enter heaven?, all that will stand is the true test ...I accepted your son and I know Jesus died to redeem me from my sins. Now that's the good news!!

This world is nearing it's end my friend and all evil unrepented sinners without Christ will be condemnded, I suggest you don't let that happen to you! Blessings.... Kathy

[firestorm]

Actually, I think things are getting better. We just like to think they're getting worse so we feel slightly superior to those around us, as if we ourselves would feel more at home with smarter people. Not dissing anyone because I do it too, always telling younger people how we were so much better in the 60's and 70's.

[arthwollipot]

This goes on all over the world. The U.S. is not immune.While I'm not trying to deny that this goes on all over the world, it seems to me that it is more... virulent in the US. Maybe it's just reported more from the US. I dunno.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law.California is burning because gays are people too? This is a new low for you, Kathy. :bwall

[Olowkow]

This world is nearing it's end my friend and all evil unrepented sinners without Christ will be condemnded, I suggest you don't let that happen to you! Blessings.... Kathy

I'm curious how you know this, who told you? What evidence do you have? Can't you just let your world end around you, and leave me and my world alone? I happen to be pretty happy and I have no need to even invoke the notion of "sin". You have bought into a world of sadness and delusion, and some of us just don't want any part of that lie.

Have a nice day.:)

[Safe-Keeper]

Can't blame them for their paranoia, though. Why not? They are the citizens of a democracy. That makes them the people responsible - whether they are responsible people or not.Oh, I blame them for their belief in the Rapture, all right. I meant my post as a joke (a play of words, using 'raptor' instead of 'rapture'), saying that if I ended up (irrationally) believing in the Rapture, I'd be scared too.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.Pardon the OT Godwin, but why is it that when Hitler massacred gays, it meant hitler was bad, but when God terrorizes gays, it means 'he's acting against evil' and gays are bad:confused:? Why is it that so many Christians have this battered spouse syndrome when it comes to their deity?

Is God wrong or was Hitler right? You can't have it both ways.

The scriptures are clear that in the last days many mockers would comeOnly in the last days? That's like me announcing that in the last days, politicians will lie and water will be wet. People have always scoffed at Christianity, Kathy. What you see today in the US is nothing new, nor particularly severe compared to earlier events. Oh, and Jesus was pretty clear that He would return and bring about the 'Rapture' before the people who lived at the time would die. 2000 years overdue, He is - so much for honesty.

and evil would grow.Again, the US isn't exactly a hellhole of evil and horror compared to many other places in many other times.

[ServiceSoon]

How did things get this bad?
This behavior was taught to them by anything they interacted with, especially as children.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I have said some of the same things about Obama so I'll apologize if I offend you in these beliefs. The fact is you need to realize people are like the company they keep and Obama's track record is HORRIBLE! I'm sorry but I do believe his cousin in Kenya and he are plotting something more than we could even conteplaint.

The problem is clearly EVIL! Men are evil full of sin because we are born with a fallen nature.The thing I have a hard time with is why people are so blinded by their sin. We have all been born into a fallen world and unless we accept Christ there is no hope. I see Obama as a son of perdition because of his backround and his connections.

I would just suggest we all get on our knees with God to save us.The scriptures are clear that in the last days many mockers would come and evil would grow. Soon they will forbid people to get married and that's totally evil. God ordained marriage,one man, one woman. I say we keep it right with him.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.

There is plenty of proof that God is and He does act against evil. He will have his time in everyones life dealing with sin. If he hasn't convicted each one of us of our sins then we have an even bigger problem because he has just left us. I know first hand about being chastised and I know it's because my Heavenly Father loves me. We either accept Jesus's authority or we rebel and deny the one truth that sets us sinners free.

As for Obama, he is a sinner like everyone else and as far as I can see he still needs a Savior, then I might trust him because he would be a spirit filled leader. As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?

God help us all see the truth that we have sinned against a Holy God and his Son is real and can set us sinners free. I myself like the reassurance of knowing when I meet my maker when he asks me why I think I deserve to enter heaven?, all that will stand is the true test ...I accepted your son and I know Jesus died to redeem me from my sins. Now that's the good news!!

This world is nearing it's end my friend and all evil unrepented sinners without Christ will be condemnded, I suggest you don't let that happen to you! Blessings.... Kathy

I understand that the other presidential candidate spent at lot of time (years even) with a bunch of Communists? Is this true?

Can you say "Manchurian Candidate"?

It saddens me considerably that there are people on this planet who provide any credence to such idiocy.

May the IPU (bless Her Name) pee on you too.

[TinfoilCat]

I have said some of the same things about Obama so I'll apologize if I offend you in these beliefs. The fact is you need to realize people are like the company they keep and Obama's track record is HORRIBLE! I'm sorry but I do believe his cousin in Kenya and he are plotting something more than we could even conteplaint.

The problem is clearly EVIL! Men are evil full of sin because we are born with a fallen nature.The thing I have a hard time with is why people are so blinded by their sin. We have all been born into a fallen world and unless we accept Christ there is no hope. I see Obama as a son of perdition because of his backround and his connections.

I would just suggest we all get on our knees with God to save us.The scriptures are clear that in the last days many mockers would come and evil would grow. Soon they will forbid people to get married and that's totally evil. God ordained marriage,one man, one woman. I say we keep it right with him.

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.

There is plenty of proof that God is and He does act against evil. He will have his time in everyones life dealing with sin. If he hasn't convicted each one of us of our sins then we have an even bigger problem because he has just left us. I know first hand about being chastised and I know it's because my Heavenly Father loves me. We either accept Jesus's authority or we rebel and deny the one truth that sets us sinners free.

As for Obama, he is a sinner like everyone else and as far as I can see he still needs a Savior, then I might trust him because he would be a spirit filled leader. As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?

God help us all see the truth that we have sinned against a Holy God and his Son is real and can set us sinners free. I myself like the reassurance of knowing when I meet my maker when he asks me why I think I deserve to enter heaven?, all that will stand is the true test ...I accepted your son and I know Jesus died to redeem me from my sins. Now that's the good news!!

This world is nearing it's end my friend and all evil unrepented sinners without Christ will be condemnded, I suggest you don't let that happen to you! Blessings.... Kathy

Wait.

Last time I checked, Obama is a Christian, and there is no evidence that implies that he is NOT a Christian. If he is a Christian, who accepts Jesus as his savior, why would he need another savior?

The issue of homosexuality:

Their are "Good" Christians who believe homosexuality is not forbidden or at least not the "ultimate" sin. Both sides of Christianity have their own Biblical "evidence" or "proof" that the opposing side is wrong. The issue of homosexuality shows a great hypocrisy from both sides by the name calling and the various other methods of defaming each other, all in the name of God.

Also, provide the proof that the world is nearing its end, from the Bible or from anything else.

On the issue of your family believing that end is near or that Obama is the anti-christ...

A Christian perspective:

Tell them to actually READ the Bible thoroughly, instead of listening to what apocalyptic preachers tell them whats in the Bible. 90 percent of the time, apocalyptic preachers who deal with the rapture, anti-christ, and so on, do not do extensive research on the topic. Christian eschatology is the essence of complexity and majority of the futurist teachings are un-biblical in the first place.

Where in the Bible does it say "Obama shall be the anti-christ".

The whole futurist apocalypse thing is beginning to bug me. They spew claims which have no true biblical back up and claim that we shall all raptured into Heaven while un-believers suffer in Hell. Why would any follower of Christ, who must love and not judge, literally WANT people to burn in "Hell".

[Safe-Keeper]

Why would any follower of Christ, who must love and not judge, literally WANT people to burn in "Hell".For the same reason there were citizens of East Germany who wanted people to 'disappear' and be sent to work camps, I suppose.

[TinfoilCat]

For the same reason there were citizens of East Germany who wanted people to 'disappear' and be sent to work camps, I suppose.

Hiding behind religion to express their unrighteous bigotry and rage?

I'm guessing this is why atheists and other non-Christians think were all irrational, hypocritical, nincompoops. (Were not ALL like this... well maybe some of us...)

[Ladewig]

Wait.

Last time I checked, Obama is a Christian, and there is no evidence that implies that he is NOT a Christian. If he is a Christian, who accepts Jesus as his savior, why would he need another savior?

Quoted for relevance.

Of course when KK says "I have said some of the same things about Obama," I suppose it is possible that she is referring to assertion that Obama is a secret Muslim. KK, please tell us that you are not so out of touch with reality to believe that Obama is either the anti-Christ or a Muslim.

Soon they will forbid people to get married and that's totally evil.

They will forbid marriage?! WTF are you talking about?


I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.

Have you ever read the Bible KK? Scriptures clearly and unambiguously state that idolatry and blasphemy are by far the most serious sins. They go well beyond any admonition to eschew gay sex. Why don't you California Christians try to outlaw idolatry with the same fervor that you try to outlaw homosexuality? The number of idolaters in California must be several times the number of homosexuals. Or better yet, why don't you Christians mind your own business and stop trying to legislate Christianity. We are not a Christian nation nor should we try to be.

[godless dave]

Don't feed the Kurious Troll.

Regarding the OP, I think there have always been people like your family around, but we are at one of those periods in American history where some politicians are courting them more than usual, and as a result they are more visible than usual.

[wolfgirl]

As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?Nobody's been suppressing it. Everyone knows where McCain stands on abortion; it's just that most Americans are pro-choice, like Obama.

[wolfgirl]

I am a native California girl and am appauled at the legalization of gay marriage. I can't help but notice how the state has been fighting fires ever since they passed that law. I just pray it will be overturned or everyone in my state will suffer for it.So your wonderful, kind, gentle, loving god is punishing everyone in the state for the decision of a few? Wow, what a guy! After all, no kind and loving god would want all of his children to be treated equally, would he?

It must be weird to live in a world where you see everything as some sort of reaction or response by an invisible man in the sky. When there are floods or hurricanes or earthquakes in places without gay marriage, how do you explain them? Or how do you explain when entire countries, like Canada, allow gay marriage, and they haven't been destroyed by avalanches or something?

[Hokulele]

If he hasn't convicted each one of us of our sins then we have an even bigger problem because he has just left us.


Or never existed in the first place.

[kurious_kathy]

While I'm not trying to deny that this goes on all over the world, it seems to me that it is more... virulent in the US. Maybe it's just reported more from the US. I dunno.

California is burning because gays are people too? This is a new low for you, Kathy. :bwall Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling.

And I don't hate gays, I hate their sin. They need to acknowledge it's sin and then God will heal them. Nobody is born gay, that's just an excuse. God will judge people for their sin so I am obligated to share that knowledge with others. Jesus died for all the sins of this world, but once he comes inside us with his Holy Spirit we can't enjoy sinning anymore, the Holy Spirit convicts us of it. Do you get that? God is Holy and His laws are just. Just look at the warnings in scripture about who won't enter Heaven sometime. Do you even know where those are?

I had to go through this confrontation with the Lord about my own sin 4 years ago. I am his child now and he wouldn't allow me to continue on that dark path which does destroy our lives. I started reading scripture and confessing my sins, and he forgave me. Now I walk in the light but it wasn't this way that long ago. I broke every singel one of those Ten Commandments and and ashamed of it. I just wish I had truly come to know the Lord a long time ago so more of my life could have been useful to him. Now I have a powerful testimony of what Jesus can do and I will continue to share that in hopes He can use it to reach others.

P.S. It's not okay that they are trying to enforce laws to quiet the teaching of God's word either. He addresses homosexuality as a sin in scripture and people threaten us for making that known? That's wrong and unfortunately we are probably going to see more pastors in jail because of this. I am upset about that. It's a violation of our constitution and the freedom of speech.

[Kopji]

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.

There is a lot you could do short of completely severing relationships, but taking a break from them for a while doesn't sound like it could hurt. It sounds like that in a real sense - they are ill. When people are sick it is sometimes a good thing to give them space to get well. Act with compassion and work with them slowly.

Not to sound harsh, but belief that is expressed in a way that issues threats of insane violence is almost certainly a medical problem because it can destroy lives. Discussing religion and politics is probably going to be unproductive: they are ill.

[kurious_kathy]

Or never existed in the first place.He has always been our creator God, please don't let others deceive you. He loves us so much he gave his son to die for our sins. Jesus took our place so we could be reconciled to our Heavenly Father and have a relationship with him. And to me when it all comes down because of Jesus I have everything. Nothing this world puts me through can take me out of his hands. Don't you want that peace in your life? You can know this truth too, just seek God with all your heart. He is the one who rewards us when we do. Once Jesus revealded himself to me it took away every doubt I ever had. I'll hope and pray that for you too.

[Kopji]

Here is a short list of the history of California fires. The fires always come this time of year and are statistically unrelated to political votes about legal definitions of marriage.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/10/22/state/n181734D34.DTL&feed=rss.news

Additionally, to accept that God causes fires in Southern California killing innocent people and burning their houses as a kind of chastisement for what people in Northern California did - is simply evidence that if God exists he is a bad aim.

(Poe's Law on Kathy).

[Kopji]

Or God is evil?

_ November 1966: Loop Fire, near Angeles National Forest in Los Angeles County. 2,028 acres, 12 firefighters killed. Power line.

Maybe that fire in 1966 was due to God's revulsion against the civil rights movement.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling.

You act like these are the first fires California has ever had. Hey, and Hurricane Katrina was because New Orleans is a land of sin. As we all know a hurricane has never occured near a freaking coastal city.

And I don't hate gays, I hate their sin.

I've lived with fundamentalists and homophobes for my entire life, this is code for "I hate gays". It's logically meaningless to claim that you hate a person for who they are and not the person themselves since the two are inseparable.

They need to acknowledge it's sin and then God will heal them.

What are the success rates of religion run homosexual retraining camps?

Nobody is born gay, that's just an excuse.

I had a discussion with this with another poster awhile back who conceded that a person can, indeed, be born gay. However he refused to concede that homosexuality was not a sin. I assume I'm going to have to go through this all with you again. But please, show me one peer-reviewed paper from the "homosexuality is a choice" crowd and I may start to give that statement consideration.

God will judge people for their sin so I am obligated to share that knowledge with others.

I'm curious what the punishment God has lined up with his followers who judge others in his stead?

Jesus died for all the sins of this world, but once he comes inside us with his Holy Spirit we can't enjoy sinning anymore, the Holy Spirit convicts us of it.

Emphasis mine. Where does the bible say that if a man accepts the Holy Spirit sinning is no longer a temptation nor even enjoyable?

Do you get that? God is Holy and His laws are just.

They very well may be just but your interpretations of them are not.

Just look at the warnings in scripture about who won't enter Heaven sometime. Do you even know where those are?

I know them fully and 100%. The debate is on their meaning, none of the scripture was ever originally meant to be taken literally. And if something in scripture is shown to be logically invalid than by all reason you must either reinterpret the scripture or throw it out. For instance, the idea of an eternal sentence of punishment is logically consistent with the concept of a god who does not enjoy tormenting us.

P.S. It's not okay that they are trying to enforce laws to quiet the teaching of God's word either. He addresses homosexuality as a sin in scripture and people threaten us for making that known? That's wrong and unfortunately we are probably going to see more pastors in jail because of this. I am upset about that. It's a violation of our constitution and the freedom of speech.

No one is telling you that you cannot believe what you want. I simply want you to keep it in your home and out of my face. And if you choose to ignore that then you can expect only a harsh rebuke from me, I don't care special pleading you can throw out in defense the bottom-line is that your message of God's intolerance is unappealing and offensive to mine and many other's ears. Please show me a single pastor who has been jailed for simply speaking his mind and in which his words cannot be interpreted as fighting words...fighting words are not covered in free speech.

[Henners]

He has always been our creator God, please don't let others deceive you. He loves us so much he gave his son to die for our sins.

According to the book I read, he was lent for a weekend and then went back home.

[arthwollipot]

Oh my. I'm going to have to get back to this, but right now I have to go.

[Mashuna]

I broke every singel one of those Ten Commandments and and ashamed of it.

I'd be more than ashamed if I'd murdered someone. Do the police know about this, Kathy?

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

I know them fully and 100%. The debate is on their meaning, none of the scripture was ever originally meant to be taken literally. And if something in scripture is shown to be logically invalid than by all reason you must either reinterpret the scripture or throw it out. For instance, the idea of an eternal sentence of punishment is logically consistent with the concept of a god who does not enjoy tormenting us.

Excuse me, I meant to say a "logically inconsistent with the concept of a god who does not enjoy tormenting us." For some reason I can't edit that post.

[maxfrost]

I will agree that it seems worse now than in the past. Even though the past was pretty bad. E.g. people claiming that Kennedy (the first Catholic to run for president) would be a puppet of the Pope.

Al Smith was the first Catholic to be nominated for President by a major political party. Kennedy was the first Catholic to be elected President.

[westprog]

OP - A worrying, very wearing situation which could really get you down, but I'd go with autolite's views in #14.


I emphatically would not. Breaking away from your family is something to be done as a last resort when the situation is highly destructive. It really should be a matter of absolute survival only. These are the people you'll turn to if you need a kidney. So they have insane/bigoted/irrational views - so what?

Friends you tend to pick because you have things in common. Family you stick to in spite of having nothing in common.

N.b. I'm not commenting in any way on Autolite's situation. I'm just referring to the OP, and whether the barking mad views described therein are justification for abandoning the entire family altogether.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Remember, the uncle was physically threatening.

My parents probably feel the same, and my sister's into the Secret (or was last I heard, I don't bring it up), so I tend to keep to the family I've made for myself rather than going with the one I had. There's precedent--I grew up with just the six of us despite having lots of relatives in the same city, they didn't think my father was legitimate.

[TMiguel]

OMG, Mental Hospital for all of them, seriously, they will hurt some one.

[slingblade]

Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling.

No, it's not a coinsidance. But it is a coincidence.

Though California wildfires make worldwide news as the latest natural disaster to befall the state, experts say they have been occurring regularly since before the region was settled by Europeans.

"It's a natural phenomenon, just part of Mother Nature's way of cleaning out the forest," California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection spokesman Daniel Berlant said. "Sometimes we hear, 'This is the worst fire season ever.' But its really an ongoing thing."

...that was written in 2007. (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1531024320070516)


And I don't hate gays, I hate their sin.

I don't hate KK. I just hate everything about her.


They need to acknowledge it's sin and then God will heal them. Nobody is born gay, that's just an excuse.

Because if you found out people can be born gay, you'd have to admit that God must have made them that way, and it would all fall apart on you.

SCARY!


God will judge people for their sin so I am obligated to share that knowledge with others. Jesus died for all the sins of this world, but once he comes inside us with his Holy Spirit we can't enjoy sinning anymore, the Holy Spirit convicts us of it. Do you get that?

No, actually, and it's one of the greater lies that caused me to renounce religion. So you can leave here content in the knowledge that what you've just said WILL drive someone away from Christianity. Thanks! I'm grateful to you for that.


God is Holy and His laws are just. Just look at the warnings in scripture about who won't enter Heaven sometime. Do you even know where those are?

Printed on the cups at Chick-Fil-A.


I broke every singel one of those Ten Commandments and and ashamed of it.

I agree with Mashuna. Who did you kill, Kathy, and did you ever do any time for it?

P.S. It's not okay that they are trying to enforce laws to quiet the teaching of God's word either.

It's not okay to lie, either, but you do it anyway. Feel any shame over that? I didn't think so.

He addresses homosexuality as a sin in scripture and people threaten us for making that known?

I bet you can't wait until you get your first threat! What an exciting day that will be for you!

That's wrong and unfortunately we are probably going to see more pastors in jail because of this.

When you see the first one, let us know. Until then, stop lying. It makes you look sinful, Kathy, just horribly sinful.

I am upset about that. It's a violation of our constitution and the freedom of speech.

Jesus was a pedophile. The apostles were his procurers. They brought him tasty children to sodomize on a daily basis. He even said, "suffer the little children to come unto me." What more proof do we need?


The preceeding was me engaging in free speech. Aren't you glad I have it, and aren't you just dying to protect my right to say such things?

[Foster Zygote]

I agree with Mashuna. Who did you kill, Kathy, and did you ever do any time for it?

Well, remember that Moses was angry and broke the first set of commandments. Then God sent him up for a replacement set that makes no mention of murder. So perhaps Kathy seared a kid in its mothers milk.

[godless dave]

I emphatically would not. Breaking away from your family is something to be done as a last resort when the situation is highly destructive. It really should be a matter of absolute survival only. These are the people you'll turn to if you need a kidney. So they have insane/bigoted/irrational views - so what?

Friends you tend to pick because you have things in common. Family you stick to in spite of having nothing in common.


Abusive parents everywhere approve this message.

[westprog]

Abusive parents everywhere approve this message.

I didn't see any example of parental abuse in the OP. There was a description of physical abuse from an uncle. I note that KF didn't break off relations with his uncle because of it.

KF will no doubt make his own judgement based on his own knowledge of the situation. If he decides that his family are worth sticking with, or not, then he'll probably be correct. If he decides to cut loose the occasional uncle who's out of control, then he's probably right as well.

However, bailing out of a family is like bailing out of an aircraft. It's a drastic step, and should only be taken when the alternative is to crash and burn. Finding a new family is not easy. Friends aren't family - even the closest friends. The reasons for abandoning a family entirely should be extremely substantial.

[godless dave]

However, bailing out of a family is like bailing out of an aircraft. It's a drastic step, and should only be taken when the alternative is to crash and burn. Finding a new family is not easy. Friends aren't family - even the closest friends. The reasons for abandoning a family entirely should be extremely substantial.

This is a sweeping generalization that applies to many people, maybe even the majority of people, but by no means to everyone. For many, abandoning a family is like crawling out of the burnt wreckage of an airplane that crashed long ago.

I'm lucky that most of my extended family are nice, but I need them in my life about as much as a fish needs a bicycle. They neither add to nor detract from it.

[Safe-Keeper]

I emphatically would not. Breaking away from your family is something to be done as a last resort when the situation is highly destructive. It really should be a matter of absolute survival only. These are the people you'll turn to if you need a kidney. So they have insane/bigoted/irrational views - so what?

Friends you tend to pick because you have things in common. Family you stick to in spite of having nothing in common.

There was a description of physical abuse from an uncle. I note that KF didn't break off relations with his uncle because of it.What about children and teens who are sexually abused, repeatedly, over a period of years by family members?

Is that OK, too, westprog?

The "(s)he didn't leave/offer resistance/scream, so it must be OK" bullocks belongs to a different age. Abuse is abuse.

[westprog]

This is a sweeping generalization that applies to many people, maybe even the majority of people, but by no means to everyone. For many, abandoning a family is like crawling out of the burnt wreckage of an airplane that crashed long ago.

I'm lucky that most of my extended family are nice, but I need them in my life about as much as a fish needs a bicycle. They neither add to nor detract from it.

Extended family is very different to family. Some people have aunts and uncles they've never even met. Some have aunts or uncles who are as close as their parents.

Advice about someone else's family is best not given on the basis of what's happened in one's own.

[I Ratant]

... So perhaps Kathy seared a kid in its mothers milk.
.
How can you even say that without weeping?
Imagine the stress on the mother goat!

[westprog]

What about children and teens who are sexually abused, repeatedly, over a period of years by family members?

Is that OK, too, westprog?


I'm afraid that I can't comment on this kind of reasoning.


The "(s)he didn't leave/offer resistance/scream, so it must be OK" bullocks belongs to a different age. Abuse is abuse.

I think the idea that repeated sexual attacks from an early age is the same thing as a single physical attack is clearly wrong. The two things have little in common apart from the name "abuse".

I'm not telling KF how he should deal with his family. If he thinks that there are sufficient reasons for him to break off the relationship with any or all of them, then he's more likely to be right about it than I am. It is, however, a huge step, and not to be undertaken lightly.

[Hokulele]

I'll hope and pray that for you too.


Meh, hope and pray for the success of my new business if you must do anything. Better yet, buy my software.

[gentlehorse]

He has always been our creator God, please don't let others deceive you. He loves us so much he gave his son to die for our sins. Jesus took our place so we could be reconciled to our Heavenly Father and have a relationship with him. And to me when it all comes down because of Jesus I have everything. Nothing this world puts me through can take me out of his hands. Don't you want that peace in your life? You can know this truth too, just seek God with all your heart. He is the one who rewards us when we do. Once Jesus revealded himself to me it took away every doubt I ever had. I'll hope and pray that for you too.

He killed his own son to protect his own creation from his own wrath. Think about that, Kathy.

[kurious_kathy]

Wait.

Last time I checked, Obama is a Christian, and there is no evidence that implies that he is NOT a Christian. If he is a Christian, who accepts Jesus as his savior, why would he need another savior?

The issue of homosexuality:

Their are "Good" Christians who believe homosexuality is not forbidden or at least not the "ultimate" sin. Both sides of Christianity have their own Biblical "evidence" or "proof" that the opposing side is wrong. The issue of homosexuality shows a great hypocrisy from both sides by the name calling and the various other methods of defaming each other, all in the name of God.

Also, provide the proof that the world is nearing its end, from the Bible or from anything else.

On the issue of your family believing that end is near or that Obama is the anti-christ...

A Christian perspective:

Tell them to actually READ the Bible thoroughly, instead of listening to what apocalyptic preachers tell them whats in the Bible. 90 percent of the time, apocalyptic preachers who deal with the rapture, anti-christ, and so on, do not do extensive research on the topic. Christian eschatology is the essence of complexity and majority of the futurist teachings are un-biblical in the first place.

Where in the Bible does it say "Obama shall be the anti-christ".

The whole futurist apocalypse thing is beginning to bug me. They spew claims which have no true biblical back up and claim that we shall all raptured into Heaven while un-believers suffer in Hell. Why would any follower of Christ, who must love and not judge, literally WANT people to burn in "Hell".
If you believe Obama's a Christian by going to church you are sadly mistaken. He looks like a wolf in sheeps clothing to me. Check out his spiritual leader Jermiah White sometime, talk about a racist. This guy is no man of God and people who fallow his teaching are very misled.

As for gays yes there are people in church struggeling with that sin but they are asking for help to get free from homosexuality if they are truly a spirit filled believer they cannot keep doing that, it is against scripture and God warns people to repent of this sin just as there are many other sins we are warned about to repent of. I have repented of a lot of sin from my past and sometimes this prodigal does get down about it. I just know the Lord as set me free from all that bondage that once kept him from being a part of my life. If we want God we must repent and then he is faithful to forgive our sins, but he never says it's okay to go back and keep doing it. Are we ever completely sin free as believers, no but we don't agree it's oaky to live a life of sin. And sexual sin is one of the worse as we are taught in scripture it is sinning against our own selves and has severe concequences. Why do you think there is so much aids now? That looks like God's judgement to me but I guess everyone has to decide themselves. What about all the other sexually transmitted diseases, do you think that's a coinsidence? I certainly don't.

[Henners]

As for McCain I think he's more real than Obama so he's got me and my hubby's vote. The fact that he is pro life won me over. How the heck did the media surpress that important bit of info?




I'd suggest that you get in there quick when McCain drops Palin. You seem to be perfectly qualified as a replacement.

[Toke]

I worry that economic trouble could make political and religius nuts more plentifull.
Desperation could make people turn to religion.

What are the success rates of religion run homosexual retraining camps?
How is that surpused to work???

[godless dave]

I'm not telling KF how he should deal with his family. If he thinks that there are sufficient reasons for him to break off the relationship with any or all of them, then he's more likely to be right about it than I am. It is, however, a huge step, and not to be undertaken lightly.

If you don't know him or his family, how do you have any way of knowing it's a huge step?

[kurious_kathy]

Meh, hope and pray for the success of my new business if you must do anything. Better yet, buy my software.What kind of software do you have? We just may have use for it. Do you have a website??

[uruk]

While I'm not trying to deny that this goes on all over the world, it seems to me that it is more... virulent in the US. Maybe it's just reported more from the US. I dunno.


The U.S. is just in the global eye more often. Yea you have alot of people around here who are ignorant and extremist in thier views, but it's mostly fear mongering and hardline radical politcal partisanship. I suspect you will find this type of ignorance and extremeism exists in all countries in larger quantities than you might suspect.

Everybody talks alot of smack but very rarely does someone take violent action in this country in comparison to other countries. And when it does happen, the hammer comes down pretty hard on the persons or groups.

We do not hold a candle to some other countries where there are honor killings and ethnic cleansings and violent suppression of protests and genocides.
Heck, you even have countries where the parliment members physicaly fight over simple issues.

The last time we had an all out war over political differences in our country was about 150 years ago.

[Marquis de Carabas]

California is burning because gays are people too?
Rubbing two sticks together is a leading cause of fire.

[kurious_kathy]

He killed his own son to protect his own creation from his own wrath. Think about that, Kathy.Jesus was the only one that could make a sacrifice that was pleasing to God for us. He never sinned that's why death could not keep him. The penalty of sin is death, but Jesus never sinned so he was resurrected. I know my redeemer lives, he has proven himself to me and millions of other believers.
I know it does take faith to receive this message, I just hope there are some here on JREF capable of having faith. What is a life without faith?To me that seems pretty empty and meaningless. So many try to say this life is all there is, but that is simply just not true. People are living souls that go on forever, either one place or the other. This would be a good time to take this warning about hell seriously as God is not mocked! And maybe for some I seem a bit overpowering, but I do have authority through Christ to speak truth into others lives!

[Nursefoxfire]

<snip>
And sexual sin is one of the worse as we are taught in scripture it is sinning against our own selves and has severe concequences.
<snip>


So you DON'T endorse John McCain, then? After all, he committed the "sexual sin" of adultery, and then put aside his first wife for the less broken model he's using now.

[kurious_kathy]

No, it's not a coinsidance. But it is a coincidence.



...that was written in 2007. (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1531024320070516)




I don't hate KK. I just hate everything about her.




Because if you found out people can be born gay, you'd have to admit that God must have made them that way, and it would all fall apart on you.

SCARY!




No, actually, and it's one of the greater lies that caused me to renounce religion. So you can leave here content in the knowledge that what you've just said WILL drive someone away from Christianity. Thanks! I'm grateful to you for that.




Printed on the cups at Chick-Fil-A.




I agree with Mashuna. Who did you kill, Kathy, and did you ever do any time for it?



It's not okay to lie, either, but you do it anyway. Feel any shame over that? I didn't think so.



I bet you can't wait until you get your first threat! What an exciting day that will be for you!



When you see the first one, let us know. Until then, stop lying. It makes you look sinful, Kathy, just horribly sinful.



Jesus was a pedophile. The apostles were his procurers. They brought him tasty children to sodomize on a daily basis. He even said, "suffer the little children to come unto me." What more proof do we need?


The preceeding was me engaging in free speech. Aren't you glad I have it, and aren't you just dying to protect my right to say such things?Hi Sling! I guess my faith is just a sore reminder of your past life. I just wish you had not gone apostate, I really do fear for your soul because I do not think there is any hope for an apostate? I could be wrong, but??

And as for who I killed? I am post abortive. I thought I got out of breaking the killing commandment until I had to deal with that lie I bought when I had my abortion. I was 16 and not ready to be a mom and I thought it was just a glob of tissue, now I see I was wrong. Now the Lord has forgiven me and healed me from that tragedy and I have hope of meeting my aborted baby in heaven. I believe now what the Bible teaches that life begins at conception, but then I was totally clueless. Anyways my abortion was one of the big things that caused me to be on anti depressants/ and liquor for years until God intervened and turned my ife around. It's been 4 years now without anti depressants or liquor and I am grateful for it. This was not by my own strength either, Jesus delivered me from a life of addiction. When I got on meth that last year it was way bad! Lot's of people still struggeling with that one. I was one God saved, it could very well have killed me like it has so many other people.

I guess we do have something my past is a sore reminder too! I never want to be lost to a life of sin again, NEVER!!

P.S. I know I am not a good speller or typist, sorry!!

[wolfgirl]

Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling.Okay, you're nuts.

What about all the fires that happened in California before the ruling? And what about the fires that happen in other states without gay marriage?

So far, two people have died in the fires. Your god killed two perfectly innocent people, neither of whom were probably gay or even cared about the gay marriage issue, to punish other people he thinks are sinning. Again I say, what a guy!

[Henners]

I take it you managed to hide your neighbour's ass in the garage, KK?

[kurious_kathy]

I'd suggest that you get in there quick when McCain drops Palin. You seem to be perfectly qualified as a replacement.
I know many do not like Palin but I do so I will take it as a compliment. And McCain is the better choice as a leader in my humble opinion, he's not just blowing smoke and tickeling ears to get a vote! I believe he will change things for the better in the USA. But Obama?? Well I just see he has no intention of following through with anything that will truly help the US, he will make us more vulnerable to the other world powers and then we will be imprisoned like the other nations, Do you want that? A socialist government will weaken the US not make her strong again. I'm sorry but I really think the US needs a wake up call Obama is not going to make a good leader for us and it would not surprise me if he truly is a undercover Muslim? Call me paranoid but his connections and friends are not good trustworthy people. Especially his cousin in Kenya. Why would he support him unless he is just like him?? I say think about it, this guy does not appear to be a true hot blooded Amercian boy which is what this country deserves. It's our right as Americans to have a true Amercian leader. McCain has a true American backround, he even almost died serving his country but I say Obama is not looking like a true American and he's just promising under privlaged people a better life so they will vote for him! All like sheep led to the slaghter and that terrifies me. I not only fear for my kids but so many good people will suffer at the hand of evil men seizing this nation and holding her hostage. Will Obama be the one who will enforces the mark (or will make people have a micro chip) so people can work and get food? He sure looks like one that is being used to get that whole disaster set up from where I'm standing, but I guess time will tell. I am still praying that God will not let Obama win this election, please God help us pick better leaders ones that have the right morals and ethics. I'm sorry but I do not see Obama as a man that is ethical or of true good honest character.

[uruk]

Call me nuts, I don't care, it's not a coinsidance that all these Calif. fires have been going since this judge made that ruling. You'd figgure god could do better than starting fires to get his indignation expressed. After all he once flooded the world and took out two cities in one fiery blast. The California fires seem lame and half-hearted.

And I though he was a loving and forgiving god? Why does he punish then? Doesn't the very act of sin or evil living supposed to bring it' own punishments?

And Isn't his judgement reserved for after we die?

And I don't hate gays, I hate their sin. They need to acknowledge it's sin and then God will heal them. Nobody is born gay, that's just an excuse.I have to whole heartedly disagree with you there. There was this child in my neigborhood who I knew practicaly from his birth. You could tell from a very young age that he was not a "manly" child. When I last ran into him he was living with his "life partner". God will judge people for their sin so I am obligated to share that knowledge with others. Jesus died for all the sins of this world, but once he comes inside us with his Holy Spirit we can't enjoy sinning anymore, the Holy Spirit convicts us of it. Do you get that? God is Holy and His laws are just. Just look at the warnings in scripture about who won't enter Heaven sometime. Do you even know where those are?

I had to go through this confrontation with the Lord about my own sin 4 years ago. I am his child now and he wouldn't allow me to continue on that dark path which does destroy our lives. I started reading scripture and confessing my sins, and he forgave me. Now I walk in the light but it wasn't this way that long ago. I broke every singel one of those Ten Commandments and and ashamed of it. I just wish I had truly come to know the Lord a long time ago so more of my life could have been useful to him. Now I have a powerful testimony of what Jesus can do and I will continue to share that in hopes He can use it to reach others.

P.S. It's not okay that they are trying to enforce laws to quiet the teaching of God's word either. He addresses homosexuality as a sin in scripture and people threaten us for making that known? That's wrong and unfortunately we are probably going to see more pastors in jail because of this. I am upset about that. It's a violation of our constitution and the freedom of speech.
That's the thing about free speech. The law says you are free to speak it, but nowhere in the law does say anyone has to listen to it.

This is an example of fearmongering and bad logic. Making gay marriage legal does not mean that it will become illeagal to speak out against it or that the church has to allow gay marriage. I don't think any pastor has been put in jail for speaking out against gay marriages or homosexuality even in the states where gay marriages are legal.
Isn't bearing false wittness a sin in god''s eyes Kathy?
You are not out and out lieing but you are alluding to something that will never happen inorder to induce fear and sympathy. Sorry that kind of swollop will not fly here.

[kurious_kathy]

sYou'd figgure god could do better than starting fires to get his indignation expressed. After all he once flooded the world and took out two cities in one fiery blast. The California fires seem lame and half-hearted.

And I though he was a loving and forgiving god? Why does he punish then? Doesn't the very act of sin or evil living supposed to bring it' own punishments?

And Isn't his judgement reserved for after we die?

I have to whole heartedly disagree with you there. There was this child in my neigborhood who I knew practicaly from his birth. You could tell from a very young age that he was not a "manly" child. When I last ran into him he was living with his "life partner".
That's the thing about free speech. The law says you are free to speak it, but nowhere in the law does say anyone has to listen to it.

This is an example of fearmongering and bad logic. Making gay marriage legal does not mean that it will become illeagal to speak out against it or that the church has to allow gay marriage. I don't think any pastor has been put in jail for speaking out against gay marriages or homosexuality even in the states where gay marriages are legal.
Isn't bearing false wittness a sin in god''s eyes Kathy?
You are not out and out lieing but you are alluding to something that will never happen inorder to induce fear and sympathy. Sorry that kind of swollop will not fly here.
I have strong opinions that's true, but I am concerned about our nation and the souls of men. I still stand on love what is good and hate what is evil. If I see something is evil I will speak up about it. People want to turn a blind eye and it's not good. There have been pastors arrested and I'm sure we will see more of them. I will have to research their names and locations but I will and then I will get back to you.

And if God orignally created us to be Holy and have fellowship with him doesn't it make sense that he would have to judge sin? He is Holy and we aren't, it's only through Christ's holiness that anyone has a chance of being forgiven and set free. After all there truly is no condemnation for those who are in Christ! I'm not perfect but I do know the one that is!!

[Elizabeth I]

I am a Texas girl and I am appauled at KK's spelling. It's too horrible to contenplaint and should be condemnded.

Check out his spiritual leader Jermiah White sometime,

And after that you could check out his spiritual leader Jeremiah Wright. Could you at least spell your ignorance correctly?

To me that seems pretty empty and meaningless.

As empty as a fundamentalist's head? How can you be so proud of being an ignorant bigot? Do you understand that ignorance and bigotry combined are the cause of most of the trouble and misery in the world, past, present, and to come?

No, you don't. :hb: :bwall

I'd be more than ashamed if I'd murdered someone. Do the police know about this, Kathy?

Spit take - water on the screen! That's what I get for reading this during lunch.

[wolfgirl]

I see you're still here, kk, but you don't seem to want to answer any of the numerous people who have pointed out that there have been fires in California long before there was gay marriage there. And that there are fires in many other states, too. And that those fires kill innocent people who have nothing to do with the gay marriage laws (a really cool god could just kill the actual people responsible for passing the law rather than setting a whole state on fire).

[uruk]

And as for who I killed? I am post abortive. I thought I got out of breaking the killing commandment until I had to deal with that lie I bought when I had my abortion. I was 16 and not ready to be a mom and I thought it was just a glob of tissue, now I see I was wrong. Now the Lord has forgiven me and healed me from that tragedy and I have hope of meeting my aborted baby in heaven. I believe now what the Bible teaches that life begins at conception, but then I was totally clueless. Anyways my abortion was one of the big things that caused me to be on anti depressants/ and liquor for years until God intervened and turned my ife around. It's been 4 years now without anti depressants or liquor and I am grateful for it. This was not by my own strength either, Jesus delivered me from a life of addiction. When I got on meth that last year it was way bad! Lot's of people still struggeling with that one. I was one God saved, it could very well have killed me like it has so many other people.

Well it is very good to see that you got out of that self-destructive lifestyle and depression. Just be sure that you are not replacing one type of addiction with another. Anything taken to extremes can be just as self-destructive as drugs and depression. Remember the verse about "inheriting the wind".

I have had a few friends who also went on a religeous bender to get away from the depression, drugs and prostitution. They went through periods of backsliding and religeous ferver. I saw some of those friends fall to the ultimate depths and a few who still ride the holy roller coaster. Some of them finally broke the chain and found an equilibrium that worked for them. They keep away from the "sin" but then niether are they hell fire and brimstone.

Just remember that just becuse you went holy roller doesn't mean that all the temptations and "evil thoughts" go away. It is a constant struggle to keep yourself on the straight and narrow. My mother (who is deeply religeous) calls it her "cross to bear" for all of her weaknesses.


As for me, I am a strong agnostic and living a very good, fullfilling life. I have a wonderful wife, a good job that I look forward to going to in the morning and I want for nothing.(except for maybe a home theater)
I do no illegal drugs or drink or smoke nor do I engage in promescuity. (Does pornography count?)
I'm more than a bit on the pudgy side though, I guess that's my "heavy" cross to bear.

I don't go to church nor am I a member of any religeon, although I have been known to pray to Joe Pesci on an occasion or two. So when I die and if there is a pearly gate I guess I might have some 'esplainin' to do but so far god has not been knocking on my door. (Mormons don't count!)

I'd say this cold and indifferent universe has been very good to me. I consider myself to be very, very lucky.

[AkuManiMani]

How did things get this bad?

Humans have always been lemmings with over-sized brains, as far as I can tell.

[CurtC]

When I first read KK's post, I thought I read that she "applauded" the same-sex marriage thing in California. It wasn't until later when someone replied, that I noticed she was "appauled."


Well, remember that Moses was angry and broke the first set of commandments. Then God sent him up for a replacement set that makes no mention of murder. So perhaps Kathy seared a kid in its mothers milk.
The Bible clearly says that when God carved the second set of stone tablets, they said the same thing as the first time. And those, which are the only ones the Bible refers to as "The Ten Commandments," are the ones that include thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk. The ten that are usually referred to in modern times, including the prohibition against coveting your neighbor's wife's ass or whatever, are really just ten of the "other" 603 commandments in the Old Testament.

[MCH]

How exactly did things get this bad?
For what it's worth, I've lived through quite a lot of British elections, and listened in on many American ones. It's not got worse, it's just that you are seeing a bad side of it; the tribal/blind fundamentalist faith is nothing new in politics, after all it's largely about morals and what people believe quite deeply are right and wrong. Sometimes this is expressed quite scarily; just mention "Margaret Thatcher" here in certain company and see what amazing reactions you get.

America is not worse - on the contrary, it's relative openness in both freedom of expression and platforms to speak on make them far far better than most in the world. That very openness also exposes the extremes, but it's not right to assume these extremes (so much better reported than boring normal views - for example the existence of this thread) are any more normal than in other places.

Again, FWIW I come from the opposite end of the rather simplistic left-right political spectrum to you (but am certainly not like your family!) and I am used to avoiding certain subjects with some of my naive tree-hugging hippy intellectually chall-... ahem... my left-leaning relations.

[TheLoneBedouin]

Humans have always been lemmings with over-sized brains, as far as I can tell.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_2618448f52223b232a.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14065)

[godless dave]

For what it's worth, I've lived through quite a lot of British elections, and listened in on many American ones. It's not got worse, it's just that you are seeing a bad side of it; the tribal/blind fundamentalist faith is nothing new in politics, after all it's largely about morals and what people believe quite deeply are right and wrong. Sometimes this is expressed quite scarily; just mention "Margaret Thatcher" here in certain company and see what amazing reactions you get.


Good point, bad example. Brits have very good reasons for hating Margaret Thatcher, not made-up ones like she was brought up a Muslim and has a distant cousin who recruits suicide bombers at abortion clinics.

But take a look at the National Party in Britain, or the far-right party in Austria, or Baader-Meinhof sympathizers in Germany, or Slobodan Milosevic's fans in Serbia. Whipping people up with lies and appealing to their bigotry and fear is by no means a uniquely American phenomenon.

[westprog]

If you don't know him or his family, how do you have any way of knowing it's a huge step?

If he's still seeing his relations and talking to them, then it's a big step to stop. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's the wrong thing to do, but it isn't something to be casually decided.

[Tanstaafl]

I have strong opinions that's true, but I am concerned about our nation and the souls of men. I still stand on love what is good and hate what is evil. If I see something is evil I will speak up about it. People want to turn a blind eye and it's not good. There have been pastors arrested and I'm sure we will see more of them. I will have to research their names and locations but I will and then I will get back to you.


I have an alternate theory.

I think you identify those you hate, then convince yourself they're evil to justify your hate.

[Darth Rotor]

So you DON'T endorse John McCain, then? After all, he committed the "sexual sin" of adultery,
Aye, and likely fornication as well . . .
and then put aside his first wife for the less broken model he's using now.
Not quite, my friend, unless you have evidence that he doesn't love Cindy more than her beer distributorship.

What evidence do you have that he does not love his wife? Your use of the word "using" is what triggered this response.

In other news, I note that KK is able to recruit a new fan club each time she drops in to post her personal style of prose on these forums.

Some things never change.

[gentlehorse]

Jesus was the only one that could make a sacrifice that was pleasing to God for us. He never sinned that's why death could not keep him. The penalty of sin is death, but Jesus never sinned so he was resurrected. I know my redeemer lives, he has proven himself to me and millions of other believers.
I know it does take faith to receive this message, I just hope there are some here on JREF capable of having faith. What is a life without faith?To me that seems pretty empty and meaningless. So many try to say this life is all there is, but that is simply just not true. People are living souls that go on forever, either one place or the other. This would be a good time to take this warning about hell seriously as God is not mocked! And maybe for some I seem a bit overpowering, but I do have authority through Christ to speak truth into others lives!
An eternal, all-powerful, all-knowing, infinitely kind and loving god is pleased by the torture and death of the physical incarnation of himself...

Throughout the course of history, there have been scores of god stories, each one as unbelievable as the next. This wise, empathetic, loving god in whom you believe would knowingly put us in the position to choose to believe in the correct unbelievable story or suffer eternal torture. He would do so, having known for eternity that many of us will be incapable of believing, and would torture us for eternity, regardless. In short, he made some of us for the sole purpose of being tortured forever, simply because we are exactly as he made us: incapable of believing an unbelievable story... I couldn't believe if I tried, Kathy. Even if I were to say "I believe", I can't see how this might fool an eternal, all-knowing god. The god in whom you believe has known how I would react to this story since before the beginning of time. And still, I must suffer forever. Your message is one I am simply incapable of receiving.

[Hokulele]

When I first read KK's post, I thought I read that she "applauded" the same-sex marriage thing in California. It wasn't until later when someone replied, that I noticed she was "appauled."


Considering there is some evidence that St. Paul was gay, that is actually funnier than it should be.

[Safe-Keeper]

He loves us so much he gave his son to die for our sins.The Fall is one of the things I really don't like about Christianity. It stems from a time when punishment from serious crimes were passed on from parents to offspring, so that if I, for example, robbed a whole bunch of people and got caught, not only I would get punished - any children I might have would be, too, along with perhaps their kids. The fact that these kids shouldn't be punished because they are innocent slipped the minds of these people - remember, this was 3000 years ago, when morals were drastically different from now.

A way to redeem for your crime, however, was to sacrifice a goat, hence the term scapegoat. You'd take a goat and send it into the desert where it would die of thirst and heat. This killing of an innocent goat somehow made the guilty less so.

Kathy might subscribe to 3000 years old morals and be impressed with God's ridiculous punishment of every human being for the crime of a pair of them (the theft of a n unnamed forbidden fruit) , and His punishment of an innocent party to set things straight. I, however, am not.

seek God with all your heart. He is the one who rewards us when we do. There's not an ounce of evidence that God-fearing people are 'rewarded' by God in any way whatsoever.

Why do you think there is so much aids now? That looks like God's judgment to me but I guess everyone has to decide themselves.So God is a terrorist who has unleashed a viral weapon of mass destruction with a horrific lack of precision (funny how it doesn't only affect gay people, eh, Kathy) that's so far killed millions of people? Yahweh makes Usama look like a rebellious little seven year old sometimes.

But then again, it's God. He's above His own supremely important rules and can murder, cheat, have butt sex, take His own name in vain, lie, eat pork chops and do drugs all He wants, 'cause it ain't Sin when God does it:rolleyes:.

California wildfires: you don't think climate change plays a part, Kathy? You guys (God of the gap people) remind me of primitive native tribes sometimes. Thunder? God. White people arriving with huge black sailing ship? Gods in a gigantic black raven with white wings. Spaniards with guns? Gods with magic thunder weapons. Drought? Clearly we haven't been sacrificing enough corn and dancing enough rain dances. Wildfires near major cities? Punishment from our deity. We must change our sinful ways.

I know it does take faith to receive this messageWhich is just another way to say you've got no evidence and that we just have to take your word for it, in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. Sorry, not gonna happen.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Considering there is some evidence that St. Paul was gay, that is actually funnier than it should be.

Was he the disciple that Jesus "loved the best"? Or was that someone else?

[Hokulele]

Was he the disciple that Jesus "loved the best"? Or was that someone else?


That was John.



(Or was it in the john? No, that was the senator. Never mind.)

[wolfgirl]

California wildfires: you don't think climate change plays a part, Kathy? You guys (God of the gap people) remind me of primitive native tribes sometimes. Thunder? God. White people arriving with huge black sailing ship? Gods in a gigantic black raven with white wings. Spaniards with guns? Gods with magic thunder weapons. Drought? Clearly we haven't been sacrificing enough corn and dancing enough rain dances. Wildfires near major cities? Punishment from our deity. We must change our sinful ways.It absolutely amazes me how absolutely backwards people can be, without even seeing that they're being that way. You're right, it's no different from people explaining thunder when they didn't know better. Once they learned the real explanation, though, they no longer needed a god as an explanation. Yet there are people who, in this day and age, still think wildfires are caused by an angry god. It's sad, really.

[godless dave]

No, this year's California wildfires were caused by an angry God. Last year's California wildfires were caused naturally. You atheists sure are blind!

[Ladewig]

No, this year's California wildfires were caused by an angry God. Last year's California wildfires were caused naturally. You atheists sure are blind!

That's silly. Both this year's and last year's were caused by an angry God. He knew the Californians were going to support the homosexual agenda, so it was fair to start punishing people in advance of their actual sin. There is precedent: when God flooded the earth He killed a lot of babies, but those babies were going to grow up to be wicked people so it was alright to drown them. [/fundamentalist apologist]

[arthwollipot]

Okay, I'm collecting fares for this bus trip to Reductio Ad Absurdum Canyon.

[PBTree]

That was John.



(Or was it in the john? No, that was the senator. Never mind.)


Ok, you got me. :dl:

[PBTree]

Does anybody have any advice? I don’t want to sever ties with my family but this election, and also my admitted atheism, has driven a wedge between us I don’t think we can overcome.

Easy :).

No need to sever ties, just move. You can always ring them once a week.

Go to the Aus High Commission in Washington, tell them you are prepared to eat Meat Pies once a week, drive a Holden and will take up Australian Rules as a sport (20 yrs old, still young enough). Then emigrate over here. Tell them I sent you.

We have a few whackos but we keep them in their own suburbs. We also don't have too many bad spelling fruit loops like KK and her kin over here.


;)

[arthwollipot]

We have a few whackos but we keep them in their own suburbs. We also don't have too many bad spelling fruit loops like KK and her kin over here.Ahem.

Fred Nile.

[Laughingmonk]

I have strong opinions that's true, but I am concerned about our nation and the souls of men. I still stand on love what is good and hate what is evil. If I see something is evil I will speak up about it. People want to turn a blind eye and it's not good. There have been pastors arrested and I'm sure we will see more of them. I will have to research their names and locations but I will and then I will get back to you.

And if God orignally created us to be Holy and have fellowship with him doesn't it make sense that he would have to judge sin? He is Holy and we aren't, it's only through Christ's holiness that anyone has a chance of being forgiven and set free. After all there truly is no condemnation for those who are in Christ! I'm not perfect but I do know the one that is!!

Kathy,

From what you have written, I have come to a few conclusions:

1.) You honestly want to do the right thing.

2.) You have listened to yourself and others that you care about, and have found Christianity to have attributes which resonate with how YOu see the world.

3.) Unfortunately, and I cannot say this in any other way, it has left you Culturally Unaware.

You seem to have a thing against the concept of homosexuality. Would it surprise you to know that there are cultures out there that actually look upon it as the norm? Or the fact that some cultures view gender differently than we do? There are even cultures who view heterosexuality as taboo, only indulging in it for procreation, while the ingesting of semen by younger males from older males is a right of passage into manhood?

I suggest you read up on how other cultures view the world. It will allow to understand your own culture better, as well as come to a deeper understanding of how cultures interact with each other.

Ethnocentrism is a huge problem in the world right now. Perhaps some will dispute this with me, and I welcome any arguments to the contrary, but that is where I currently stand.

I doubt whether you know what ethnocentrism means. I am not going to tell you. I want you to figure it out for yourself.

If I sound condescending, I apologize. I honestly want you to grow in your knowledge about the world. Keep in mind, this does not mean I necessarily think you are ignorant, it just means you have little experience in this field.

I liked the story you posted, though I liked it for different reasons. You see divine intervention, wherein I see a person who turned their life around with the belief in something bigger than themselves. I am not going to debate the existence of god with you, that is not the point of this post. I do see that we have something in common, though it is obvious that we let it affect each other differently..



To the OP:

I'd hate to be in the position that you are in. I've been at odds with my family before (me being the ultra right winger and them being super dems), but never to that level.

[Safe-Keeper]

I doubt whether you know what ethnocentrism means. I am not going to tell you. I want you to figure it out for yourself.Learned all about it in social studies class, from one heck of an... objective teacher.

In effect,


pointing out that a lot of Muslims demonstrated after the Muhammad cartoons is ethnocentric and racist because apparently you can't say it without also stating that Muslims as a whole are intolerant.
Going on number one, pointing out Muslim fundamentalists' ethnocentric attitude is ethnocentric.
Number two is an exception. Pointing out others' intolerance is of course accepted and encouraged - as long as it's not Muslims.
Saying that our life as people in the city is better than life as a native in the Amazon rain forest is ethnocentric and racist.
Saying that life as a native in the rain forest is so much better than our life in the city is not ethnocentric or racist.
Attacking the culture of an Islamic country is ethnocentric and racist.
Attacking the culture of the USA is not ethnocentric and racist.
Stating that the Muslim extremists do what they do because they adhere to Islamic teachings is ethnocentric and racist.
Stating that the US and Israelis treat their criminals and enemies in a despicable manner because they adhere to Jewish teaching, and that we kind Norwegians, who are so much better than the Americans in pretty much every way, treat our prisoners justly because of our Christian values, is not ethnocentric or racist.

Her classes indoctrination sessions left me more confused than educated on this subject:rolleyes:, but I think, from reading between the lines, that 'ethnocentric' means something like 'a person who thinks his or her culture is better than another person's culture', which seems to translate in my cynical eyes to 'don't attack aspects of other peoples' cultures, regardless of how unjust and intolerable those aspects are', because It's Their Cultuuuure!

[AWPrime]

What are the success rates of religion run homosexual retraining camps? How is that surpused to work???
I think you answered your own question, it doesn't work.

[Toke]

Just curius as to what flawor of woo they used.

[Ladewig]

Just curius as to what flawor of woo they used.

It can range from fervent prayers coupled with the support of ex-gays to casting out demons. Most encourage the subject to marry someone of the opposite sex rather than simply remain celibate.

[Toke]

Thanks

[Laughingmonk]

@ Safe keeper:

Yes, I have heard those ideas thrown around to. What I was taught, and what I agree with in my experience, is that everyone is ethnocentric to some degree. We are raised in a certain culture, and we adopt it aspects of it that are hard to shift.

As to what your teacher had to say:


* pointing out that a lot of Muslims demonstrated after the Muhammad cartoons is ethnocentric and racist because apparently you can't say it without also stating that Muslims as a whole are intolerant.

I agree that this is baloney.

* Going on number one, pointing out Muslim fundamentalists' ethnocentric attitude is ethnocentric.

Also Baloney

* Number two is an exception. Pointing out others' intolerance is of course accepted and encouraged - as long as it's not Muslims.

It sounds like your teacher was overly tolerant of extremism.

* Saying that our life as people in the city is better than life as a native in the Amazon rain forest is ethnocentric and racist.

This is actually true, though I don't think that is racist. Cultures do not advance the same way. That was called the theory of Uni lineal Evolution, and it is generally viewed as being debunked.


* Saying that life as a native in the rain forest is so much better than our life in the city is not ethnocentric or racist.

This implies that your teacher was ethnocentric.

* Attacking the culture of an Islamic country is ethnocentric and racist.
* Attacking the culture of the USA is not ethnocentric and racist.

Attacking any culture, including your own, is ethnocentric. of course, that really depends on the definition of "Attack."


* Stating that the Muslim extremists do what they do because they adhere to Islamic teachings is ethnocentric and racist.

Not necessarily ethnocentric, but rather stereotyping.

* Stating that the US and Israelis treat their criminals and enemies in a despicable manner because they adhere to Jewish teaching, and that we kind Norwegians, who are so much better than the Americans in pretty much every way, treat our prisoners justly because of our Christian values, is not ethnocentric or racist.

I agree that is rather hypocritical.


It sounds like your teacher, while understanding the idea of ethnocentrism, didn't necessarily understand its true application.

Ethnocentrism is not wrong. It is is not right, either. It just is. For someone to recognize that they indeed have a bias, allows them to have a clearer understanding of other cultures.


Her classes indoctrination sessions left me more confused than educated on this subject, but I think, from reading between the lines, that 'ethnocentric' means something like 'a person who thinks his or her culture is better than another person's culture', which seems to translate in my cynical eyes to 'don't attack aspects of other peoples' cultures, regardless of how unjust and intolerable those aspects are', because It's Their Cultuuuure!

I would say just understand that you, as a human being, have ethnocentric views. This is what I trying to impress upon Kathy. That she understand that she is viewing the world through a very biased lens. When you start getting into the legal aspects of a multicultural society, then things become very interesting, and the ideas right and wrong become extremely complicated.

Mostly, I was trying to impress the idea that things are not as cut and paste as she