Let's go to Cuba

[Frank Newgent]

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article.jsp?id=3&debateId=33&articleId=1439

His theme, anyway, is the surprise factor of paradox. The word has a semi-surreal invocation, which outsiders might find fits their preconceptions of a Latin country with its taste for magic realism and the films of Luis Buñuel. But at times I wonder if what he actually means is contradiction or downright hypocrisy. Is he too circumspect to say so? It depends, I suppose, on the degree to which you think the discrepancy between the reality at stake, and the words used to describe it, has been willed.

It is, however, an intoxicating theme. The prevalence of such paradoxes is one of the reasons no one ever understands the Cuban reality, in his view. ‘Contradiction’ is part of the fabric of daily life here.

He starts tamely enough. No one has anything to eat in Cuba but people somehow survive. No one has any soap but the Cubans are cleaner and better dressed than the Europeans who visit. No one has anything to say for Fidel, but everyone turns out in the plaza to applaud him. This is the Hotel Nacional, the great bulwark of Cuban nationalism, but it was built by the famous American company, Pan Am, in the 1930s.

The Cubans are more enamoured of America than people think, although it is their deadly enemy: they play baseball (like Americans) and not soccer (like the rest of the world); American heroes are their heroes. They watch endless streams of American TV on illegal satellites.

As for foreigners, he glances around them room, they used to come to Cuba, to discover the scope of the “new man”, el hombre nuevo (as Che Guevara put it). Now they come to rediscover the etiquette of the old ways and the spirit of the 1950s (which is what the revolution sought to escape). That may say more about the disquiet about modern development in the west than about Cuba, but it is true that a Cuban holiday is a nostalgia trip.

He pauses, and shaking somewhat, he takes a sip of his cocktail, replacing it gingerly on the glass table. He looks to see that the bolero band is louder than it was, and the waiters are otherwise engaged. He then launches his biggest paradox yet. The Americans have an embargo on Cuba, but the only reason anyone survives today in Cuba is because of the money their relatives send them from the States. That amounts to a cautious estimate of a $1 billion a year in total – more than the entire sum earned by the Cuban government in the sugar trade. That makes America Cuba’s biggest donor in aid, and the aid goes direct to the people.
Spent a week in Havana in 1988 and still remember it as one of the most fascinating places I've ever been. Though my (Mexican) Spanish is pretty good I had a difficult time understanding the clipped lisping variety spoken there and became lost in the ventilations of a large group of young men carrying on in an animated exchange one day in the street. I thought "Hey, isn't such open political discussion kinda dangerous around here?"

What else could they be talking about? At times one or another of the participants in this public display of manic fervor would have to stomp away, at a temporary loss to handle the excitement. Then he'd be back, swinging his arms, pacing in circles, carrying on as though nobody would ever be able to understand the crucial significance of what he was trying to say. I remembered the sight of the fellow in the street the day before, facing down the pelota with only his arm, batless, and understood.

Béisbol!

[JAR]

I didn't know freedom of speech was limited in Cuba. So that's why there are people who say Cuba's a bad place. I just thought they were saying it was bad just because it's communist.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by JAR

So that's why there are people who say Cuba's a bad place

http://cellar.org/2003/cubantruckraft.jpg


Oh yeah? Think so? The only reason the US Coast Guard had to
sink a 51 Chevy pickup was that it was way cooler than their tub.

[Cleopatra]

You know this is the reason why I am pissed off with Open Democracy's articles sometimes.

The idealization of communism, terrorism and now of Cuba.

I went to Cuba 10 years after you did in 1998 and I have never felt more ashamed in my life for what a communist regime can do to its population.

I went with the romanticism of the idiots who have read Hemingway, you see, when I was little I was reading Hemingway so I wanted to see Cuba.

The poverty, the seediness, the prostitution shocked me. I was walking with my husband in the streets of Havana and young girls ( younger than 15 years old) were dragging him from the shirt for sex for a couple of dollars.

The "fun" is taking place in huge hotels ( I call them concentration camps for vacation, great places for "quiet" Americans) and outside the hotels the misery is insulting for a person who considers him/herself a free thinker.

I wonder if this monster Fidel Castro who dares to be dressed in Armani while his people starve will ever apologize for the misery of his people, if he will ever apoligize to the young girls that try to support their families by prostitution,if he will ever apologize to the workers in the tobacco plantations that get paid with a few bucks and their products are sold in Zurich for hundreds of $$.

Those who write such nostalgic pieces about Cuba, I refer to the article now, watch too much Hollywood or they read too much literature for children( Hemingway)

[DanishDynamite]

Cuba is yet another embodiment of the trueism: "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely".

[Tony]

Thanks for sharing the story Cleo, I find it sickening that the left is willing to make excuses for castro's tyrannical regime in the name of "socialism".

Frank, are you into cars? Ive heard that Cuba is full of old, classic american cars.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Cuba is yet another embodiment of the trueism: "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely".


Since I participate in political discussions for years now, I use a lot of dramatic expressions.

Yes, you can describe Castro's regime with the phrase " Power corrupts" BUT when it comes to see with your own eyes how this is translated in terms of everyday life you get really shocked and you realize the verbalism we all excercise when we are discussing politics.

Power corrupts even in our democratic societies but what is happening to Cuba is a drama or one of the dramas that happen aroung the world.

I hate to think what will happen when Castro will die and the Americans will take over.

Some nations are condemned to live in an infinite misery.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Frank Newgent
Spent a week in Havana in 1988 and still remember it as one of the most fascinating places I've ever been. [/B]

I spent three years in Cuba, including 1988, and I remember mushroom clouds as landmines exploded, killing people trying to escape. I remember an 18 year old Marine telling me that he had just witnessed a Cuban soldier assigned to patrol the other side of the fence trying to make a run for it and having several automatic weapons opened up on him as he was killed by his comrades.

I remember talking to two fellows who began their escape through the minefields (the largest active minefields in the world, by the way), only to abandon the idea when a jumping landmine sprang up next to them and failed to explode, thankfully. They decided to SWIM the rest of the way.

Fascinating place. You bet.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


I hate to think what will happen when Castro will die and the Americans will take over.



Why? Do you think Cuba will become even more of a squalor hell-hole?

[Charles Livingston]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



I hate to think what will happen when Castro will die and the Americans will take over.


Why?

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Cleopatra I hate to think what will happen when Castro will die and the Americans will take over.Why? And why do you think the Yanks will take over?
Some nations are condemned to live in an infinite misery. That is lovely, my Queen. However, I have yet to see a nation where this is true. BTW, can you define what you mean by "misery"?

[Cleopatra]

Cuba is a very beautiful place, it's a paradise, after Castro's death it will become the vacation resort of USA not to mention that in Europe we will have to say goodbye to Cuban cigars....

Since Greece is a country that lives from tourism( not exclusively but tourism plays a significant role in our economy) I must confess that I am very much against tourism.

Organized Tourism they way we experience it today, has turned the world into an endless Disneyland, cultures are disappearing or they turn into "Folklore" just to serve the hordes of tourists.

Also, the country that hosts huge touristic units profits very little, even the fact that tourism combats unemployment is a myth. Cuba for example will be conquered by Americans that will take all the good jobs and the majority of the natives will stay unemployed or underpaid.

I have seen it happening here.

Danish Dynamite Misery means starvation, means prostitution, means lack of opportunities( in Cuba education is non existent), means lack of perspective for the future.

[Charles Livingston]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Cuba is a very beautiful place, it's a paradise, after Castro's death it will become the vacation resort of USA not to mention that in Europe we will have to say goodbye to Cuban cigars....

Since Greece is a country that lives from tourism( not exclusively but tourism plays a significant role in our economy) I must confess that I am very much against tourism.

Organized Tourism they way we experience it today, has turned the world into an endless Disneyland, cultures are disappearing or they turn into "Folklore" just to serve the hordes of tourists.

Also, the country that hosts huge touristic units profits very little, even the fact that tourism combats unemployment is a myth. Cuba for example will be conquered by Americans that will take all the good jobs and the majority of the natives will stay unemployed or underpaid.

I have seen it happening here.

Danish Dynamite Misery means starvation, means prostitution, means lack of opportunities( in Cuba education is non existent), means lack of perspective for the future.

Anything else you want to blame us yanks for? Also, why will europe have to give up cuban cigars if America 'takes over'? I for one just cant wait to move there and screw the entire native population, in addition to stopping all export of cuban cigars to anywhere except the U.S (we do like them ya know, it is a little matter of the embargo).

On one hand you say tourism plays a significant role in the Greek economy, but they you say that the country that hosts huge touristic units profits very little, using unemployment as an example. So I guess tourism plays a significant role in the economics of foreign tourists living in Greece? Or do you mean that the significant role is a negative one? I dont quite understand how businesses formed to accomodate tourists take jobs away from native people, unless the tourists or other foreign people are actually moving there. What (who) tourists have been moving to greece and taking away all the good jobs?

[DanishDynamite]

Queen of the Nile:Cuba is a very beautiful place, it's a paradise, after Castro's death it will become the vacation resort of USA not to mention that in Europe we will have to say goodbye to Cuban cigars....It is not paradise. There is no paradise. And if it becomes the vacation resort of the USA, so what? Millions of dollars will enter the economy. Ans I very much doubt that the end of Castro will mean the end of Cuban cigars.
Since Greece is a country that lives from tourism( not exclusively but tourism plays a significant role in our economy) I must confess that I am very much against tourism.You will need to explain this for me.
Organized Tourism they way we experience it today, has turned the world into an endless Disneyland, cultures are disappearing or they turn into "Folklore" just to serve the hordes of tourists.True. We may decry it, but that is the consequence everywhere of easy airtravel.
Also, the country that hosts huge touristic units profits very little, even the fact that tourism combats unemployment is a myth. Cuba for example will be conquered by Americans that will take all the good jobs and the majority of the natives will stay unemployed or underpaid.Cleo, my lovely, you are starting to sound like a socialist!
Danish Dynamite Misery means starvation, means prostitution, means lack of opportunities( in Cuba education is non existent), means lack of perspective for the future.Thank you. Can you point out some nations which will in perpetuity live in misery?

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I hate to think what will happen when Castro will die and the Americans will take over.


Just out of curiosity, has Castro done anything to secure a successor? Or will it be a free-for-all when he goes?

In some dictatorships (like Iraq was, or Syria), there are often sons or other relatives to take over. Other dictatorships (Like China or Russia pre-1990) have 'parties' that are behind the scenes (so everything isn't based on the personality of one man.) Does cuba have anything like that, or is Castro the only figure who has real influence?

[Cleopatra]

Danish Dynamite I felt like a socialist indeed while I was composing my previous post so I took off my pc to take my temperature :D

Charlie Livingston I don't accuse the Americans about anything.

The loses of tourism for small countries outbalance the profits. Yes, in the huge tourist units, in tourists areas etc foreigners run the tourist industry.

Tourists come to Greece for 10 days and they spend their vacation in a hotel that belongs to a foreign company and they don't even get out of this hotel.

This is what happens to Cuba right now and things of course will deteriorate, if you share my opinion that this constitutes a deterioration.

Segnosaur I do not know at all about Castro's successor's and this is a good opportunity for us to check.

Danish Dynamite

Can you point out some nations which will in perpetuity live in misery?

Why do I have the feeling that you want me to tell you something specific ? ;) What are you having in mind? Palestine or do I hear voices again?

[Charles Livingston]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
[b]Charlie Livingston I don't accuse the Americans about anything.

Really? How bout this: "Cuba for example will be conquered by Americans that will take all the good jobs and the majority of the natives will stay unemployed or underpaid."[b]

The loses of tourism for small countries outbalance the profits. Yes, in the huge tourist units, in tourists areas etc foreigners run the tourist industry.

Tourists come to Greece for 10 days and they spend their vacation in a hotel that belongs to a foreign company and they don't even get out of this hotel.

This is what happens to Cuba right now and things of course will deteriorate, if you share my opinion that this constitutes a deterioration.

You didnt really address any of my specific questions. I understand that some of the new tourism jobs will be taken by foreigners, but I would imagine some new jobs are created that go to the native population. Also, how do the new jobs take away existing (non-tourist) jobs? Please address my specific questions from this response as well as my previous.

[renata]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
[B]Segnosaur I do not know at all about Castro's successor's and this is a good opportunity for us to check.


Fidel Castro's successor is his baby brother, Raul. Fidel is 77, Raul is youthful 75.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Tony

Frank, are you into cars? Ive heard that Cuba is full of old, classic american cars. True. Most of them seem to double as cabs. Wouldn't you rather get there in a 1955 Chrysler New Yorker (http://autohobbypage.com/cgi-bin/_mopar.pl?/show/00/kkoa/kkoa210.jpg)?

My (then) girlfriend and I took the pedicabs, too. One night we just went ahead and asked the driver/peddler to take us to a restaurant he'd recommend. Wheeled through the bowels of old Havana until we got to his neighborhood (of course) where we met his mother who told a hooker with a broken arm to get the speakeasy on the second floor across the street to toss down the key. Had a fine plate of rice and fish surrounded by folks who looked to be from Castro's inner circle. What, was I supposed to kill them?

Prostitution is rampant. I imagine that that's part of the draw these days. The one time in the day we saw the other folks from our budget tour out of Mexico City was at breakfast when we got to see who had been out too late the night before. There was some kid in an Atlanta Braves baseball hat who apparently developed an affection for a likely transvestite three times his age. They ate together every morning and we had to undergo witnessing a tearful separation in the hotel bar the night we flew out.

I still have an old can of potted meat that I purchased in Havana. It's more of an art object really, with a beautiful red cow head graphic and all Cyrillic writing. May be road kill from a Soviet tank. Because I believe that opening this can would cause my immediate transmogrification into some herbivore, I am afraid of it.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Danish Dynamite I felt like a socialist indeed while I was composing my previous post so I took off my pc to take my temperature :D

Charlie Livingston I don't accuse the Americans about anything.

The loses of tourism for small countries outbalance the profits. Yes, in the huge tourist units, in tourists areas etc foreigners run the tourist industry.

Tourists come to Greece for 10 days and they spend their vacation in a hotel that belongs to a foreign company and they don't even get out of this hotel.

This is what happens to Cuba right now and things of course will deteriorate, if you share my opinion that this constitutes a deterioration.

That's the spirit Cleopatra!

White Americans should stay out of Greece and accept that they aren't Greek people and remain in America.

T.E. Lawrence says in page 31 of Chapter 1 in his book "Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph": Pray God that men reading the story will not, for love of the glamour of strangeness, go out to prostitute themselves and their talents in serving another race.
A man who gives himself to be a possession of aliens leads a Yahoo life, having bartered his soul to a brute-master. He is not of them. He may stand against them, persuade himself of a mission, batter and twist them into something which they, of their own accord, would not have been. Then he is exploiting his old environment to press them out of theirs. Or, after my model, he may imitate them so well that they spuriously imitate him back again.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by JAR

White Americans should stay out of Greece and accept that they aren't Greek people and remain in America.

What about Cuban-Americans?

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Cuba is a very beautiful place, it's a paradise,

Your definition of "paradise" must be on a lower threshold than mine. If you think Cuba is a paradise, then Iraq under Hussein must have been heaven.

after Castro's death it will become the vacation resort of USA not to mention that in Europe we will have to say goodbye to Cuban cigars....

It was a vacation resort before Castro. And the cigars were everywhere.

Since Greece is a country that lives from tourism( not exclusively but tourism plays a significant role in our economy) I must confess that I am very much against tourism.

Organized Tourism they way we experience it today, has turned the world into an endless Disneyland, cultures are disappearing or they turn into "Folklore" just to serve the hordes of tourists.

I've been to Greece a few times. Didn't look anything like Disneyland.


Also, the country that hosts huge touristic units profits very little, even the fact that tourism combats unemployment is a myth. Cuba for example will be conquered by Americans that will take all the good jobs and the majority of the natives will stay unemployed or underpaid.

Paid less than what they get now? Will they be better fed and healthier, or remain the same? Be honest.

I have seen it happening here.

Greece's problems have nothing to do with tourism. I am beginning to think you are joking. You have much bigger problems than a McDonald's on the corner.


Danish Dynamite Misery means starvation, means prostitution, means lack of opportunities( in Cuba education is non existent), means lack of perspective for the future.

At least they won't be killing themselves trying to escape. And Newgent says they already have prostitutes! Do you honestly believe the Cubans would be as bad off without Castro as with him? Holy smokes!

At least their TV will be better. I used to turn on their local station as I was getting ready for work in the morning, and there was Castro, rambling on about something. I'd come home in the afternoon, and he was still on! The guy has amazing staying power. But how entertaining can one guy be?

They used to read the news with music blaring in the background. Very surreal.

When they did have programming, they showed a lot of Charles Bronson movies. I love Charles Bronson movies. So maybe their TV won't improve. They'll probably get "Survivor." Can you imagine the Cubans' impression of "Survivor?" :D :D :D

[Ed]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


The loses of tourism for small countries outbalance the profits. Yes, in the huge tourist units, in tourists areas etc foreigners run the tourist industry.

[/B]


Do you have any specifics on this?

If you have a country that is a tourist destination, guess what? That is a product like any other.

What do you think ought to happen to Cuba? If the people need help of some sort or the other, where does the money come from. Sugar? OK, Monday is covered, what about the other 364 days of the year?

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Luke T.

But how entertaining can one guy be?
Happy Halloween (http://www.costumes-4-halloween.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/CASTRO.jpg)

Just curious, Luke T: were you at Guantanamo or somewhere else?

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Frank Newgent

Happy Halloween (http://www.costumes-4-halloween.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/CASTRO.jpg)

Just curious, Luke T: were you at Guantanamo or somewhere else?

Yep. Three years in Gitmo. I was totally rooting for Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men. :D

[originalgagster]

Id rather live in Cuba than any capitalist Latin American country.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by originalgagster
Id rather live in Cuba than any capitalist Latin American country.

I'll let Luciana take this one....

edited to add: Or Patricio.

[Supercharts]

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y03/jul03/31e9.htm

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250122003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Tourism:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~drclas/publications/revista/Tourism/castillo.html

[Hatuey]

I would agree that the human rights situation in Cuba is intolerable. Right now over 600 prisoners are being held indefintely without charges and without the right to trial. Amnesty international describes the totality of the conditions under which they're being held as amounting to "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment."

Oops, they're being held by the United States government at its base at Guantanamo. My mistake.;)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511282003

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by originalgagster
Id rather live in Cuba than any capitalist Latin American country.

What about Costa Rica?

:)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Charles Livingston

You didnt really address any of my specific questions. I understand that some of the new tourism jobs will be taken by foreigners, but I would imagine some new jobs are created that go to the native population.

Yes they are but they contribute very little to the general ameliorization of the conditions of the population. Do you think that turning Cubans into waiters will ameliorate their lives significantly?


Also, how do the new jobs take away existing (non-tourist) jobs?

What jobs? Generally speaking though, tourism tends to eliminate activities that were closely realted to specific societies and to their needs. For example, the cattlemen of the Greek islands became waiters. This year the tourism in Greece experiences a severe crisis that is expected to be continued, the locals that have abandonned any other activity and they have devoted themselves to tourism have a serious problem right now.

On one hand you say tourism plays a significant role in the Greek economy, but they you say that the country that hosts huge touristic units profits very little, using unemployment as an example.

Yes it does. Small units that are owned by the locals are profitable BUT they cannot compete in prices with the large units that belong to foreign multi-national companies and they employ immigrants in half-wage.

[Cleopatra]

Although I am not sure about your point I will give it a try.

Originally posted by Luke T.

Your definition of "paradise" must be on a lower threshold than mine. If you think Cuba is a paradise, then Iraq under Hussein must have been heaven.

I was referring to the nature and the environement that doesn't belong to Castro. I have never been to Iraq to talk about its natural beauties.

It was a vacation resort before Castro. And the cigars were everywhere.

And?

I've been to Greece a few times. Didn't look anything like Disneyland.

The Disneyfication of a culture is a coined term that describes the destruction of cultural diversity. I used it with this definition.

Paid less than what they get now? Will they be better fed and healthier, or remain the same? Be honest.

Well, this was exactly my question? Will their lives ameliorate?

Greece's problems have nothing to do with tourism. I am beginning to think you are joking. You have much bigger problems than a McDonald's on the corner.

I think that you must read again my post.

At least they won't be killing themselves trying to escape. And Newgent says they already have prostitutes! Do you honestly believe the Cubans would be as bad off without Castro as with him? Holy smokes!

Guess what! I bet you that in Cuba prostitution is the oldest profession! Read again my post please, I said exactly the opposite!

They'll probably get "Survivor." Can you imagine the Cubans' impression of "Survivor?" :D :D :D

LOL

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Mike B.


What about Costa Rica?

:)

Costa Rica is all right, but
The Zone (http://www.czbrats.com/) was where it was at.

/hijack

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
The Disneyfication of a culture is a coined term that describes the destruction of cultural diversity. I used it with this definition.



Well, Americans certainly didn't invent the so-called destruction of cultural diversity by homogenizing it through the exportation of their own culture.

As I recall, the ancient Greeks did an excellent job of Hellenizing many of the Mediterranean cultures. The Romans came shortly thereafter and succeeded in Romanizing nearly all of Europe and many of the Meditarranean and Middle Eastern cultures as well. Their cultural influence may be found everywhere throughout the Western world even today, some 1600 years after their empire crumbled.

The main difference is that today, the homogenization of culture isn't being forced on people by military imperialism. Today, it's economic. As DD mentioned, it's also largely because of the relative ease, affordability, and effectiveness of air travel in bringing so many persons into contact with other cultures. The mixing of them then becomes inevitable. Today, we also have instant, world-wide communications via the internet, satellite telephone connections, mobile phones, and satellite television like CNN.

Face it, today's world is far more global than it ever has been. Ease of travel, instant world-wide communications, easy international trade, and economic forces are having profound effects on native cultures.

The cultural influences are not entirely one-way. Not only is much of the world adopting and incorporating American pop culture, but American culture is also being influenced by contact with the cultures of other nations, and by immigration, as it always has been.

You seem to forget that American culture is an amalgam of many different cultures. It is a true melting pot. The rest of the world is becoming much of the same.

You can lament it, or you can embrace it, but you cannot stop it. Human culture is evolving, as it always has.

AS

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Ed

Do you have any specifics on this?

What you mean specifics? Numbers? No I do not have numbers but small countries that become travel destinations and where the packed tourism flourishes lose their culture and the structure of the society is ruined, to me, this constitutes that ultimate loss for a country.

If you have a country that is a tourist destination, guess what? That is a product like any other.

True. Others have oil, other have tourism, both become nothing but targets.

What do you think ought to happen to Cuba? If the people need help of some sort or the other, where does the money come from. Sugar? OK, Monday is covered, what about the other 364 days of the year?

So, it's ok to serve tourists for the rest of 364 days a year. Of course, I know that serving tourists is better than prostitution.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


True. Others have oil, other have tourism, both become nothing but targets.


Some places have canals that are of world economic importance. Central America and I suppose most of the Americas have been "pwnd" by all sorts of foreign cultures.

In Panama you can go watch the polleras dance by in parades on holidays. You can take a "tour" of the Cuna Islands where Cuna Indians will allow you to observe them in the native tribal setting. You can even buy molas from them.
But what is Panamanian culture?

Where is Noriega today?

/hijack....

I really should stop hijacking. This is a thread about Cuba, not Panama.

[Cleopatra]

Amateur Scientist

There is joke coming from the Romans according to which Romans might have conquered the Greeks but the Greeks conquered the Romans with their culture. Greeks never imposed their culture to nobody, they just communicated it.

Americans do not impose their culture either but if a small country wants to be able to participate in the game it has to play by the rules.

To return to tourism, I see the tourists people in the touristic areas of my country. Thousands of people are supposed to visit Greece but what really happens is that they live for 10 days in a huge hotel where they suppose to taste the Greek kitchen, the Greek culture etc etc. Of course, what they are served -- culturally or... gastronomically speaking-- has nothing to do with the Greek culture. Very few, pass the gates of the hotel to see the rest of the area because it's always cheaper to stay in!!!

This is what I called Disneyfication.

Can it be otherwise? This is the question.

As for the American culture being an amagalm, well, I'd love we had this conversation once. I don't know is we can talk about an amagalm or about a collage of different elements that are glued together. What is the name of this glue? Some say that it's the Constitution ( if this is the case this is not the product of an amagalm of cultures! ) other say the American dollar...

But I digress... :)

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
[B] I don't know is we can talk about an amagalm or about a collage of different elements that are glued together. What is the name of this glue?

Baseball, Football, Apple Pie and Chevrolet!

I took my meds and can't stop interupting.
Just act like you never saw this.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by JAR

That's the spirit Cleopatra!

White Americans should stay out of Greece and accept that they aren't Greek people and remain in America.


Personally, I haven't observed a wave of white American immigrants that try to invade Greece... Of course, according to your Greek "brothers" that have your ideas about racial superiority and crap we are superior, the best, we have invented everything and we know everything and the Americans that they are sub-humans because --according to your Greek brothers they are the offsprings of the murderers, the scums and the mentally retarded that they were expelled from Europe-- would give half of their lives to be like us the superiors but still I haven't noticed any Americans in our boarders, begging us to accept them in our socialist parody... err I mean paradise.

So, don't worry!!

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Personally, I haven't observed a wave of white American immigrants that try to invade Greece...
Well for chrissake, then keep those Greeks out of America, and Chicago!! (http://www.chicagogreektown.com) I can't walk down S. Halsted St. w/o being lured into a restaurant by the smell of gyros or flaming cheese or cheap wine. And I just know that all ther profits get sent back to Greece, not many 'mericans working in those retaurants. And they hire illegal immigrants (Mexicans) to wash dishes for the half-wage...
:p




-No secret message here- ;)

Actually I love Greek Town, so lighten up Cleo!

[Cleopatra]

I was reviewing this thread and I realized why I didn't enjoy it that much.

I was waiting for Frank to post something really acerbic as a response to my opinion about Heminway, a post that would make my blood freeze but alas! Nada!

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I was waiting for Frank to post something really acerbic as a response to my opinion about Heminway, a post that would make my blood freeze but alas! Nada!

Do you mean something along the lines of suggesting a quick lunch with Hemingway's shotgun?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Frank Newgent

Do you mean something along the lines of suggesting a quick lunch with Hemingway's shotgun?


Hmmmm what does this mean? To go shoot myself?I have never heard of this expressions before.

In fact I was anticipating for a remark about the peasantry mediterranean jewry that dares to have an opinion on Hemingway, a remark that it would be refined enough to exclude any vulgar racist notion that it's improper for clever people....somethings like that!

[Frank Newgent]

...In fact I was anticipating for a remark about the peasantry mediterranean jewry that
dares to have an opinion on Hemingway, a remark that it would be refined enough
to exclude any vulgar racist notion that it's improper for clever people....

http://www.cubatravelexperts.com/hemingway/hemingway2large.jpg

I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from
listening carefully. Most people never listen.

I have considered what the premolar in this corpus
delicti broadcasts from Radio Uganda. And will
make an exception.

[Cleopatra]

:)

Ok. I will try harder to see the distinction between this macho American (http://www.cubatravelexperts.com/hemingway/hemingway2large.jpg) and that macho American (http://www.interinfo.co.jp/arnold%20schwarzenegger.jpg).

Aesthetically and not politically speaking of course...

[Frank Newgent]

That's easy. Hemingway did not believe in modifying his nouns while Schwarzengger is nothing but that: an adjective.

Another hero of yours may be mentioned here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870176310#post1870176310)

[Cleopatra]

You are not a very optimistic person Frank.

Have you ever thought that by mentioning Sharon in your poems you will provide immortality for him when you will become famous? :)

My hero is 3000 years old and he remains famous because he was distinghuished for his morality and the choices he has made and not for his habits( drinking, smoking cigars and attending bullfights).
I know many people that drink a lot, smoke cigars and they can feel with their five senses the sensuality that Nature radiates.

Closing the ears to the singing sirens and fooling the Cyclops and the Laestrygoneans... well, this is not for everybody :)

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Closing the ears to the singing sirens and fooling the Cyclops and the Laestrygoneans... well, this is not for everybody :)
I say heed gastronomic idiosyncrasies. How's my Yiddish?

[subgenius]

Where was Highway 61?

[Frank Newgent]

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."

Bob Dylan

http://www.angelsonthebackroads.com/tour.htm

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g43648-d274016-Reviews-U_S_Highway_61-Winona_Minnesota.html

http://www.trails.com/explore/Tcatalog_trail.asp?TrailID=XFA118-018

[Cleopatra]

Ruben Gonzalez, (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3302471.stm) the piano of Buena Vista Social Club, is dead.A man that belonged to another, noble era.

[Frank Newgent]

http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/8228366p-9159251c.html

The State Department has denied U.S. visas to a group of Cuban musicians who sought to attend Sunday's Grammy Awards ceremony in Los Angeles. One of them will win anyway -- all five nominees in the Latin tropical album category are Cubans -- but the Bush administration is determined to protect Americans at all costs.

http://www.hermanos.org/docs/40630896276.jpg
Looks like singer Ibrahim Ferrer, salsa pianist Guillermo Rubalcaba,
lute player Barbarito Torres or percussionist Amadito Valdes won't
be making it in time for any of the award presentations...

[subgenius]

I didn't see the show but I hope whoever accepted on his (Ibrahim Ferrer) behalf made some comment about the stupidity of barring him from the country.

[Frank Newgent]

Originally posted by Frank Newgent

Wouldn't you rather get there in a 1955 Chrysler New Yorker (http://autohobbypage.com/cgi-bin/_mopar.pl?/show/00/kkoa/kkoa210.jpg)?

My (then) girlfriend and I took the pedicabs, too. One night we just went ahead and asked the driver/peddler to take us to a restaurant he'd recommend. Wheeled through the bowels of old Havana until we got to his neighborhood (of course) where we met his mother who told a hooker with a broken arm to get the speakeasy on the second floor across the street to toss down the key. Had a fine plate of rice and fish surrounded by folks who looked to be from Castro's inner circle. What, was I supposed to kill them?


Nice article (http://www.dissentmagazine.org/menutest/articles/wi05/taylor.htm) about Cuba.

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Hatuey
I would agree that the human rights situation in Cuba is intolerable. Right now over 600 prisoners are being held indefintely without charges and without the right to trial. Amnesty international describes the totality of the conditions under which they're being held as amounting to "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment."

Oops, they're being held by the United States government at its base at Guantanamo. My mistake.;)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511282003

When you arrest someone, you press charges. Detaining an enemy combantant is a different situation, sorry. I fail to see how detaining a car bomber in a war zone compares to arresting a reporter who writes stories you don't like.

[Cleopatra]

Interesting article indeed, Frank.

Thank you.

[originalgagster]

Originally posted by RussDill
When you arrest someone, you press charges. Detaining an enemy combantant is a different situation, sorry. I fail to see how detaining a car bomber in a war zone compares to arresting a reporter who writes stories you don't like.

All 600 detainees are car bombers detained in a war zone? And your evidence for this is what precisely?

[RussDill]

Originally posted by originalgagster
All 600 detainees are car bombers detained in a war zone? And your evidence for this is what precisely?

I'm sorry, did I imply that they were all car bombers? No, they are detained for various offenses related to terror activities.

[originalgagster]

Originally posted by RussDill
they are detained for various offenses related to terror activities.

Says who?

You can take the word of the US military establishment at face value if you like. I prefer evidence.